Morbid - Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. And guess what, everybody? It is a special edition of Morbid because we got the chance to sit down with Heidi Jones AC. And she got to tell us a little bit about her mother's case. Her mother, if you don't remember, is Loretta Jones. We covered her case. You might have heard it on Wondery Plus two weeks ago. And I believe it came out last Wednesday. There you go. So a few days ago. Yes. So we thought this would be the perfect time. I mean, like, worlds collided. We got connected with Heidi. She was super happy with the episode and wanted a chance to chat with us. And we were like, hell yeah. She is one of the sweetest people I've ever met. Same. I love her. Remember we were saying in the beginning of it, it just like, she just seems cool. And she is cool. Yeah. It's so funny because in the, when Ash was telling me her mother's story, I was. baffled by Heidi. And I just kept being like, oh, my God, Heidi is such a badass. I want to meet Heidi. She seems so cool. I just want to like high-five her and hug her and like solve all the crimes in the

Starting point is 00:01:34 world with her. She's just amazing. And then you meet her and it's like, yep, you're exactly what I thought you were going to be in more. I loved her. That's the thing. And now we get to go on and like be friends with her for the rest of our lives. Because if Tom is ever up for parole, Heidi has invited us to go with Her. Hell yeah. We are all going to wear our die mad Tom shirts. Yep. And we're doing that. And they're going to have pink handcuffs on them. And you're not going to know why, as I'm saying this, but you listen to this interview with Heidi. You guys are going to find out. And, you know, this was, honestly, this was one of the most rewarding things I think we've gotten to do so far. This was really, really amazing. And Heidi's amazing. And we're so glad that she can tell you the story

Starting point is 00:02:16 because she knows it best. It's her mom. Yes. And just as a quick little warning, this was a Zoom interview. And you know how sometimes audio can be a little funky over Zoom. So we apologize if it's like a little wonky. Luckily, when Heidi is speaking, it's crystal clear. It's really only when we're speaking. And who gives a shit about us?

Starting point is 00:02:35 It's about Heidi. So luckily, her parts, you can hear everything. But we just wanted to warn you. You can hear us. You can hear the questions. You just might get a little bit of background noise. So just wanted to prepare you for that. But again, Heidi is crystal clear, which is the important part.

Starting point is 00:02:51 Primo. So I would say without further ado, here's Heidi. Enjoy Heidi. Hey, everyone. We have Heidi Jones AC on the show today. We recently covered her mother's story on the podcast, Loretta Jones. It's available for everybody now. So check that out.

Starting point is 00:03:08 And we're going to do a little follow-up interview with Heidi, who knows her mother's story best. So welcome to the show, Heidi. Thanks ladies. I'm excited to be here. We're excited to have you. Thank you so much for coming on. Absolutely. I can tell you to when Ash told me your mother's story, by the end of it, I was like, bring me Heidi. Like I want to give Heidi a hug. I want to hang out with Heidi. Like you are like amazing. Truly. Well, I just want you to know that if I have to go before the parole board in what is it, what it would be 20, 20, 20, 2036, you girls are going with me. Oh, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:03:48 We're ready to be there. We're like booking tickets right now. Let's go. Let's fight that. No, seriously, your story was just so inspiring. The way you sought justice for all those years and finally got it, just, it's the happy ending for me, you know? Yeah. So with that being said, we'll kind of start from the beginning.

Starting point is 00:04:07 So you were obviously very young when this happened. You were four years old. How can you describe your early childhood? What was it like growing up with your mom when you did? And what was Utah like for you? So in 1970, it was a small town, probably maybe 7,000 people, maybe. Oh, wow. Pretty much everybody knew everybody.

Starting point is 00:04:31 If you didn't know everybody, somebody knew somebody that knew you. So, you know, back then people play little kids played outside. You know, you'd run up and down the streets. You play kick the can, kickball, night games. You know, you would even sleep with your doors and windows open back in the day because, you know, summers are warm in Price, Utah. So, we had, you know, it was just my mom and I. We moved around to a couple little places. And then finally, my grandfather had bought a house.

Starting point is 00:05:11 And so me and my mom rented this house for my grandfather. And it was just the two of us. And it was a perfect little house. And, you know, she would, you know, cook dinners. We'd go get ice cream. We'd go see her friends. She was taking a correspondence course at home to become an accountant. And, you know, she babysit, you know, she babysit, you know,

Starting point is 00:05:41 she was the best mom for me. You know, she was, one of my first memories of her is, you know, sitting in her car, getting ice cream, you know, of course we'd go see grandma and grandpa a lot. You know, when she would iron her clothes, I'd get out my little pretend ironing board and iron alongside of her. I love that. That's so cute. We'd sit out on the porch, you know, when people walk by, you pretty much wave to everybody.

Starting point is 00:06:08 And like I said, you know, if you didn't know the person, somebody else knew them and they knew you. So it was a real, you know, real small, we thought safe town. Right. Exactly. And that's what it sounds like. So moving on from that and onto something pretty awful, we're going to talk a little bit about Tom right now. Do you remember anything about your experience with Tom meeting him or being around him at all as a kid? I don't really remember him. What I do know is that I knew him. I knew him well enough to know that. it was Tom. When the police asked me who it was, and I said, Tom, I obviously, he had been to the house. You know, I don't know how many times, but he had been around enough that I knew him.

Starting point is 00:06:58 So being a single woman, my mom, of course, dated. And, you know, it's not like she brought every guy home with her or whatever. Sure. But from what I know is she went on a blind date with Tom. and she was set up by one of her friends. You had this friend, and so they went out of a blind gate. My mom didn't really care for him, you know, so.

Starting point is 00:07:21 We could see why. I know. She had good taste. Right. Probably had this strange suspicion that he had another woman in helper, Utah, that was pregnant with his baby, you know? We have these intuitions as women. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:35 Exactly. So you knew of him, you would recognize him if he was at your head. house. Is there anything specifically from the night that your mother was killed that you do remember? I don't. Unfortunately, like I don't remember. Personally, I don't remember that night when this all took place. I have blocked that out like really good. That's good. My memories don't, yeah, exactly. My memories don't start really until the next morning, but I know that I saw and And I heard more than I remember because as a four-year-old, why would you go look through your keyhole before going into the front room? That is exactly the way we felt reading that.

Starting point is 00:08:24 Yeah. You just knew something was off. Right. And nowadays, the doors don't look like they did back in 1970. You know, we had the old skeleton keys. Right. And so you can easily look through and see what was going on in the other. the room. You know, I had also told my grandmother what happened that night. So what I told her is,

Starting point is 00:08:50 you know, I saw Tom, I heard Tom. I could hear his footsteps. I heard him say, I'm here, I'm going to kill you and maybe your little girl too. Oh my goodness. But I can't tell you, that, you know, that I remember seeing and hearing that. But vividly the next morning, I remember looking through the keyhole. Wow. That's right. must have just been so terrifying as a four-year-old. I can't believe you went through that. And it's so impressive, too, that at four years old, you had the wherewith, excuse me,

Starting point is 00:09:19 wherewithal, after all the drama that you had just been through to run and get help. Do you remember having the instinct to do that? Well, so when I, you know, went out in the room and I found my mom, I knew nothing, you know, we didn't have 911. Right. Wow.

Starting point is 00:09:39 That's well to think about it. to think about. You know, where was the phone book? I didn't know the number. Right. So when I went, I went outside and my next door neighbor, his name is Lance. He was outside digging for worms, you know, because you dig for worms to go fishing or whatever. And he says, hey, Heidi, come here.

Starting point is 00:10:01 And I said, I can't. I think my mommy's dead. And so he came running over. And Lance is about five years older than I am. Maybe four. So he came running over, open the door, saw my mom lying in a pool of blood, we ran back, got his mom, his mom went over. And then she saw what she saw. And then she came back to her house.

Starting point is 00:10:26 So we're at his house next door. And then they called my, she called my grandparents. Her name was Sue Ann. Okay. So these were neighbors that you knew and you were comfortable with. Right. Right. And so then, you know, Sue Ann is the one that ultimately called the police.

Starting point is 00:10:44 Gotcha. I feel like that's like a real testament to your mom, too, just to put that kind of like, because a lot of four-year-olds wouldn't, they might just sit down and cry. Like, you know, like that really says something about how she raised you to be like, all right, I got to do something here. Definitely. Right. Well, and, you know, I can't tell you that I remember like going over and touching her or

Starting point is 00:11:08 any of that to see that she was dead. But the amount of blood that was there in the in the living room, I'm sure I just knew. Yeah. And it's your mom. I feel like it's just like, you know, it's that bond that you have together. Right. Absolutely. In an unpredictable economy, life insurance can offer peace of mind that anyone who relies on you financially, a child, a parent, even a business partner will have a financial cushion if something happens to you. And life insurance typically gets more expensive as you age, so it's actually really smart to get a policy sooner rather than later. By making it easy to compare your options from top companies, policy genius can help you make sure you're not paying a cent more than you actually have to for the coverage that you need. And guess what? Having life insurance

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Starting point is 00:12:48 added on fees and your personal info is private. PolicyGenius does not sell your detail to third parties. Head to policygenius.com to get your free life insurance quotes and to see how much you could save. So your neighbor calls the police. They obviously arrive. Do you remember talking to them? Do you remember them asking you any questions? So I remember sitting in the kitchen table at my neighbor's house. And I was just waiting for my grandparents. And I, you know, the police came and I told them Tom did it. And then the next thing I know, I'm living with my grandparents.

Starting point is 00:13:28 Wow. You know, like a whirlwind. That really is. Yeah. And just the fact that you were there and they didn't consider you a witness because you were so young, it must have been so frustrating for you. Do you remember finding that out later and looking back and just being like, what the heck? Right.

Starting point is 00:13:45 Well, because growing up, you know, that so Carbon County Sheriff, Albert Passick would come and Price City Police Chief, Art Poloni would come. And they would, I mean, they would come to the house and interview me several times. I mean, you know, it was like, oh, the cops are here again. Oh, Heidi, you know. Oh, no. You know, oh, the sheriff's here. So they would come and I tell him, Tom did it. Tom did it. Tom killed my mom, you know. I never changed. My story never changed. So I just assumed that, you know, that would have been used as evidence or something. They keep coming back to get the same story. And then it wasn't until I started working with David Brewer that he's like, I can't believe they didn't put you on the witness them. Well, But I do remember that my grandparents protected me from having to go through that on the

Starting point is 00:14:43 stand. My testimony would have been enough. Yeah, definitely. That's the thing. It's like a double-edged sword there because you know your grandparents were like, we just got a shielder from this. But on the same token, you're like, I know what happened. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:14:59 It's a nice. It's nice that they shielded you a little bit for sure. And especially because I'm sure you were terrified growing up. Like, were you scared that. Tom was going to come and find you when it started becoming clear that the police weren't listening and weren't following up on this guy. Well, what I know is Tom was pretty much, you know, after he was released from jail after the Lori Kulo abduction and all that, I know that he was released from jail and then he left him.

Starting point is 00:15:27 Really quickly. Mm-hmm. Him and his, yeah. Yeah. So they left town and it wasn't so much that I was. Garrett, I just always felt like I needed to know, like you're looking over your shoulder. Yeah. You know, I remember one time in elementary school seeing a strange man, you know, I just feeling terrified, you know, because why is that strange man standing over there?

Starting point is 00:15:59 You know, is he watched me? Is it Tom? Is it somebody else? What's going on? So there was the sense of being terrified, you know, as a child for a few years. And I remember when I first started going to elementary school or, you know, kindergarten elementary school, my uncle brother, if you will. So he was my uncle. I was going to say, yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:26 He, you know, I would walk to school camp. I ultimately, you know, he was older than I am. but once I got out of, once he got out of sixth grade, then I had a best friend. We'd meet at School Hill and we'd walk together. So I never really walked alone. That's good.

Starting point is 00:16:44 So, yeah, that's good. You must have just been so hyper aware of your surroundings, though, and just the anxiety of all of that. I can't imagine. Now,

Starting point is 00:16:52 kind of moving on from that a little bit. Growing up, you collected anything you could about your mom's case, trying to, you were like a little Nancy Drew trying to solve this case. Can you talk about it? You really were. Yeah. Can you talk to us a little bit about the file that you put together?

Starting point is 00:17:09 So when I was growing up, I would sneak out to the garage where my mother's belongings were stored. And I took her diary. That's awesome. I would have done the same thing. Yeah. So I have her diary from 1961 to 1965. Oh, wow. And I started it.

Starting point is 00:17:32 And I just hit it away. Well, my mom wrote a diary every single day, never missed a day. So the diary from 1966, the year I was born until 1970, is just missing. And of course, the police took that for evidence. But so when I would find any, like, newspaper clippings about my mom or whatever, going through newspapers that I just happened to find from back then, I would just keep them. And I hit him pretty well.

Starting point is 00:18:04 So nobody would catch on to what I had going on. My grandmother, bless her heart. She had no idea that I even had remembered. She thought I had blocked it out of my head. Wow. It wasn't later until I was talking to, it was, let's see, it would be my brother's wife's, daughter, no, my brother,

Starting point is 00:18:31 my brother's wife's sister, we went on a trip and I started talking about my mom being murdered and all this other stuff. They went back and told my grandma about it and she had no idea that I could even remember all of it. Oh my God. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:48 Right. It's one of those things where it's like of that time, we don't talk about it anymore. Exactly. You know, I remember the trip, we went to Yellowstone and there I am, I am probably 10 or 12. And here I am talking to this girl about my mom being murdered.

Starting point is 00:19:04 And she's probably like, what the heck? She's like, yeah. Well, you're probably hiding it so well. And you just need somebody to talk to about it. I'm sure you were just wanting to talk about it. Exactly. So growing up, you know, there was all the talking about it, all the trying to get the murder case solved up until my grandpa died.

Starting point is 00:19:24 And then at that point, you did not talk about it. All it would do was make my grandma cry. And I hated being the way, you know, I hated being the one to make grandma cry. Yeah, of course. For a really long time. That must have been so hard too. Yeah. It seems like you were both trying to protect each other.

Starting point is 00:19:44 It really does. It was just like you both loved each other enough to protect each other from it. Exactly. And then, you know, later me and my grandma kind of, you know, I ended up calling her mom, grandma mom. I call her mom after I was a. adopted, of course. But, you know, later in life, I would, when I lived in California,

Starting point is 00:20:05 and come over a visit and I'd say something about my mom or try and ask her questions, and she'd just get upset and cry. And I hated being the one that made her cry. Of course, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And then towards the end, I finally told her, I says, I'm tired of competing with you as to who hurts the worst.

Starting point is 00:20:27 I understand that. But it was my mother. Yeah. And she, she kind of, I think she kind of got a better understanding of where I was coming from. But I hurt too, you know? Yeah. Right. Those are two of the most important relationships in your life, the mother-daughter relationship.

Starting point is 00:20:46 And then she had a totally separate one where she pleaded a different role. Yeah. It's just, it's not different levels of grief. It's just different kinds of grief. Definitely. Right. How hard to navigate that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:59 I can't imagine. Yeah. So obviously you were, you're going through all of this. You can't really talk about it at home. The police aren't really making any movement. What was your motivating factor that would like, kept you going when you were hitting these dead ends? So, um, I left Utah in 1986.

Starting point is 00:21:19 I moved to California. And so my mom's case pretty much was closed, not closed. It went cold. Right. They just didn't do anything. And so I left, went to California. And then in 1986, 1986, 1989, I decided I would write to this television show that it just came out called Unsolved Mysteries. I think I've heard of them.

Starting point is 00:21:48 Just a little show. So I wrote to them thinking, oh, you know, maybe they can help me solve this. and I didn't get a litter back from them. So then I thought, okay, I'm going to write to Price City Police. I'm going to write to Carmen County Sheriff's. I'm going to write to the Attorney General's office. I'm going to write to the FBI. I'm going to write to whoever I can.

Starting point is 00:22:09 So I did get a response back from Carbon County Sheriff, Albert Palsick at the time. And he sent me the original newspaper clipping from the front page and all of that stuff, and wrote me a really nice letter saying that he believed that they had the, you know, the right suspect all along, but there was just no evidence. So then, you know, that was just like one brick wall, one brick wall, one brick wall, one brick wall, one brick wall, one brick wall. Right. How did you not shut down? I'm entirely.

Starting point is 00:22:44 That's what you did. Yeah, that's what I mean. I, I, I, it has been so incredibly frustrating, you know, being told, oh, there's nothing more we can do. We did everything. No, you never. That's never an answer. Justice hadn't been brought yet.

Starting point is 00:23:05 There's always more you can do. Exactly. And I, you know, it wasn't until I moved back to Utah that, you know, we got the ball rolling again. And, you know, thank God for that because we were freaking awesome. You really were. You should have been on the case all along. A little four-year-old Nancy Drew, come on. So you led me perfectly into my next question.

Starting point is 00:23:32 You moved back to Utah from California, and I believe I read in one source, you told your friends, it's time to solve my mother's murder. If that is the case, how did you know it was time? Well, when I was leaving Utah, it was 2006. And I left, or when I was leaving California

Starting point is 00:23:50 and coming back to Utah, 2006. And, you know, it was, just time to leave California. I lived in San Jose. I was there for 20 years, and I just, I just was not making good decisions at the time. I get that.

Starting point is 00:24:08 Okay. Yeah. We all have a little young, crazy, spree, you know? You got to have it. You got to get it out of your system. Exactly. So I had told, you know, one of my best friends, I says, well, as long as I'm going to go back to time,

Starting point is 00:24:23 I'm going to go solve my mom's murder case. And she's like, you know, fuck yeah. She's like, I believe that. Go on, Heidi. So, and that's, you know, and that ultimately, when I first got back, it wasn't my first mission in life. My first mission was to find a job, find a place to live, you know, all that stuff. Yeah, you need the stable thing before you started, right?

Starting point is 00:24:49 Solving a decades-old case. Right. So you get back to Utah. You get a little stability under your feet. And then Mr. Brewer enters the scene. So you connected with him on Facebook. And then I think you said you ended up at the same arts festival a little bit on purpose. Tell us a little about that.

Starting point is 00:25:10 So my car had been stolen. And I posted it on Facebook, you know, happy freaking 4th of July. My car was stolen. Oh. And so, and this was in 2009. and and you know I had friended David on Facebook and he says oh too bad you're not closer maybe I could help and he says what do you mean yeah I said I thought you were in California and he says no I'm I work at Carmen County Sheriff's Office I'm all ding ding ding right seriously so I just thought well I need to go talk to him

Starting point is 00:25:55 So I had figured out at the Helper Arts Festival that he was going. I love that. This is pretty creepy, but, you know, it's the truth. So I went on Facebook. I made sure to notice what he looked like because he did not look like what he did back in high school. Of course. I made sure to know what kind of sunglasses he wore. Wow.

Starting point is 00:26:20 I didn't see. I really. Yeah, I truly. stocked his page. Good. We all do, you know? Right? It worked out really well.

Starting point is 00:26:32 So then you see him at the arts festival. Was your heart just racing? Like, this is time. We're getting close. Oh, gosh. So when I saw him, he had his back turn to me and I went over and I hit him on this shoulder. I'm a gay freaking brewer.

Starting point is 00:26:48 You know, he's like, hey. I said, hey, I'm Heidi Jones. He goes, oh, hey, Heidi. How is like, oh. and I'm all great. How are you? And I'm good, you know. And I said, hey, I have something to talk to you about. And he's like, yeah, what's done? You're like, you know. I, well, I says, hey, my mom was murdered in 1970 and it's never been solved. Could you look into this for me? And he tells me later that he's rolling his eyes behind his sunglasses. I heard that in an interview. Right? So I'm thinking, And he says, yeah, give me a call on me. So, you know, he goes back to where, you know, so I leave, blah, blah, blah. So then on Monday, I called him up and I just started telling him everything.

Starting point is 00:27:37 And I says, and I have newspaper clippings. I have everything I can send you that I've done on my own. He's like, okay. So then I just started photocopying everything that I had and scanning and sending and emailing. And boom, we were off. Oh, yeah. He was probably thinking when you're like, I have some newspaper clippings and stuff. He's probably like, okay, sure, send him over.

Starting point is 00:27:56 He's probably thinking he's going to get like a handful. And you're like, here's decades worth of research. There's an actual case file. Here you go. Yeah, here's every letter I've written to anybody ever about my mom's murder case. Amazing. Here's all the rejection letters. Here's everything, you know?

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Starting point is 00:30:17 So online there seems to be a few discrepancies with different stories. There's one story where a young college woman lived with your mom and you. And then the other story is that the responding officer saw it. So can you clear that up for us? Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. So the photo of the T and the O was taken by my grandfather. Right. He took three or four pictures of the crime scene when the family was allowed back into the house. So, you know, my grandma had those photos in her possession. But so when the family was allowed back in to get my clothes, the following day, her name is linda she went with my aunt caroline into the house to get my clothes and linda noticed it

Starting point is 00:31:12 oh wow years and okay so linda linda lived with my grandparents at the time her and my sister my aunt that's what she is to me i thought it's not polygamy that's exactly what elina and i are sister Aunt sister nieces, so we get it. And she calls my husband bruncle for like brother on the uncle. Yeah. We have a very similar family dynamic. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:42 So it was Linda. So then when this all started to come about, Linda messaged me on Facebook. You know, thank God for Facebook. Thank God for social media. Seriously. She messaged me and said, I have something to tell David Brewer. Do you think, do you?

Starting point is 00:32:02 she says it might help the case. I'm like, oh yeah, call him. I had no clue what it was. Wow. Wow. And so she called him and he says, well, I'll come over. And so even over where she was living and she drew it out. He didn't show her the picture.

Starting point is 00:32:22 She drew it out where it was. Wow. And then David shows her the picture. And sure enough, there it is. Wow. That must have just been like. Boom. I swear the universe just like put things into place here. I swear. Oh, absolutely. Because David said, well, this sounds a little too Hollywoodish, you know.

Starting point is 00:32:43 It does. You know, written in your own blood. Come on. Yeah. Wow. But she did it. Wow. She did it. And again, when you, when you mentioned that when we were talking about the whole thing, I was like, all right, that's it. Like, she's amazing. I was like, that's, how does that, that's not even something you could conjure up. There's never been another case that we've ever covered where that has happened. And I was just, I remember reading it and just being mind blown. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, all those years growing up, I had never heard this story that she'd written it in our own blood.

Starting point is 00:33:18 Right. And how they missed it back with that. That's wild. Because it's clear as day, you know. Like, it really is. Right. Right. And, you know, and I, in my impact statement, I had told Tom, how does it make you feel, you know, that she's with her dying breath, he's writing T and O in her own blood.

Starting point is 00:33:45 Right. And he wouldn't even look at you, right? Right. What a coward. Such a coward. Absolutely coward. So speaking of that full-blown coward, how did it feel when he was finally arrested? Do you remember that day?

Starting point is 00:34:03 Oh, absolutely. I bet. David and Wally Hendricks, who came to my house, another carbon county sheriff, detective. They came to my house and David says, oh, I have some paperwork. I need you to sign. And I said, okay, whatever. So he comes over, make small talk. And he says, oh, hey, look at this cool photo.

Starting point is 00:34:27 Hands me his phone. And it's ugly in handcuffs. Holy crap. Oh my God. What a way to do it. Right. Wow. Wow.

Starting point is 00:34:36 What a mic drop moment that is. I was like, are you freaking kidding me? Oh my God. Oh my God. You know? I love it. Well, and it was, you know, the same when he, when David called to tell me ugly confess.

Starting point is 00:34:51 I'm like, are you freaking kidding me? Yeah. After all these years. After all these years. And I just, we got him. We got him. Wow. I mean, it's so real after all this 46 years, you know, 46 years, I feel like somebody finally

Starting point is 00:35:06 listened to this little four-year-old. Yeah. Oh, man. She's living in you all along, you know, and finally she gets her answers. Yeah, you want to go all along. You want to go back and high five, four-year-old Heidi. We did it. Honestly.

Starting point is 00:35:20 Right. Well, you know, and then David, he did some pretty cool things, too. He had Tom handcuffed and pink handcuffs. Stop it. I love it. And I'm going to show you these, too. Oh, my God. But he had him handcuffed in pink handcuffs, and he later got him engraved.

Starting point is 00:35:41 And he has the original set of handcuffs that he was arrested in. And then I'm going to show you these. Oh, my goodness. That's amazing. Wow. So those are the ones he went to prison in. That is so amazing. I love that that is like in your living room just right there.

Starting point is 00:36:05 I would have it in the exact same place. And you guys can't see it, but those are very pink handcuffs. They're on a very fancy little plaque. And you know he was pissed about it, I bet. I love it. Right. And on my set, they say November 29, 2016, that's the day that he was escorted into Utah State Prison. Amazing.

Starting point is 00:36:28 which is something he was really ticked about. Unreal. Oh, yes. Yes. Unreal. That blew my mind. Have you had any opportunity other than when you were able to read your victim impact statement to speak with him? Or do you have any desire to?

Starting point is 00:36:43 I have no desire to. No. I don't blame you. It would be wasting my breath. Absolutely. Truly. I honestly have no desire to. I hope I don't have to go before the parole hearing.

Starting point is 00:36:58 but if I do, I'm there. And we're right there with you. Absolutely. For real. Like we're going to wear that offer stands. Okay. And we're going to wear shirts that say die mad, Tom. Die mad.

Starting point is 00:37:10 Yes. With pink handcuffs on them, Heidi. Yes. Absolutely. All right. We have a whole game plan. This is happening. It's got to happen now, you know.

Starting point is 00:37:20 Absolutely. Well, those were all our questions. Thank you so much for taking the time with us today. And is there anything else that you want to share about, your story or your mother's story. Oh, you know, so one of my favorite sayings that I just happened to come up with was as long as you hope you have a chance. Because, you know, when I was feeling like there was nothing left I could do.

Starting point is 00:37:48 You know, just a little glim of hope. I mean, 46 years. Yeah. And to still have hope after all those years, it was the. hope that kept driving you. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, never give up. As long as you have hope, you have a chance. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. That's awesome. No case is truly cold. No cases. I always hate hearing people say like, well, I don't think this one's ever going to get solved. No. It's like, no, 46 years. Everybody has to think of. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody needs to look

Starting point is 00:38:21 at it the way that you did. Yeah. I truly believe if you wanted to topple a mountain, you could. I think so, too. I'm a complete faith in you. Well, thanks. You're welcome. Absolutely. Thank you so much. It was so nice to meet you.

Starting point is 00:38:38 And again, thank you so much for coming on. Our listeners are going to be stoked. Thank you. And, you know, your viewers and listeners, if you will, they are pretty amazing. I made a post on Facebook and a whole shop, you know. Now you have a whole community of weirdos. That's what we call them. You got a lot of support.

Starting point is 00:38:58 You really do. We're behind you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I had never heard your podcast embarrassing enough, but I'm like a friend.

Starting point is 00:39:12 We chidey, your mom's stories on. And I'm all, what? You're like, oh. So thank you. Thank you. And keep in touch. Yeah, keep in touch, definitely. We'd love to have you on again.

Starting point is 00:39:27 Yeah. I would love that. And let's get some die Dymag Tom shirts. Oh, we're going to do that. Okay, let's do it. Got to happen. We're going to talk to the merch team. Yeah, we're going to get them out to you.

Starting point is 00:39:39 Okay. You'll have the first one. Yeah. Sweet. I will wear it to the Helper Arts Festival proudly because it all began. Amazing. That's so great. Well, thank you so much, Heidi.

Starting point is 00:39:53 And we'll talk to you soon, I hope. Okay. Thank you. Well, guys. We hope you enjoyed getting to hear from Heidi herself. We absolutely enjoyed sitting down with her. It was so much. An absolute pleasure.

Starting point is 00:40:04 Truly. But on a more serious note, guys, if you or anyone you know is suffering from domestic abuse, help is available. Please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233. And if you're looking for more information on domestic violence and legal action that can be taken, please visit the Battered Women Justice Center at www. BWJP.org to learn more.

Morbid - Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)

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