Morbid - The Clutter Family Murders

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

In 1959 the state of Kansas was absolutely shocked to find that one of its most prominent and well-liked families, The Clutters, had been murdered. Richard Hickock and Perry Smith, two convicts that had recently been released from prison were the ones responsible. Both had been told by a fellow inmate while incarcerated that the Clutter family had a large amount of cash stashed in a safe on their property. The two broke into the family home and searched for the safe, they then woke up the family when they couldn't find it, tortured and murdered them one by one. thank you to exquisite David White for research assistance ReferencesCapital Wire Service. 1959. "Two Itinerant Laborers Held for Murder Quiz." Topeka Daily Capital, November 20.Capote, Truman. 1965. "In Cold Blood." The New Yorker, September 25.Cowan, Carole. 2005. "Persons Unknown." New York Times, Jan 23: F6.Garden City Telegram. 1965. "Last Words Attack Capital Punishment." Garden City Telegram, April 14: 1.Gonsalves, Antone. 1984. "25 years later, 'In Cold Blood' murders still haunt." United Press International, November 11.Greer, Bob. 1959. "Clutter Family Murders." Garden City Telegram, November 16: 1.Hegeman, Roxana. 2009. "The Stains of In Cold Blood Still Fresh 50 Years Later." Guelph Mercury, November 10.Hickock, Richard. 1960. "Spectre of Noose Haunts Prisoner." Topeka Daily Capital, March 25.Kalbfleisch, Gay. 1959. "Empty Shell Cases, Fatal Shot Found." Topeka Daily Capital, November 19: 1.Keglovitts, Sally J. 2004. "In Cold Blood Revisited: A Look Back at an American." Federal Probation: A Journal of Correctional Philosophy and Practice 68 (1).Kull, Ron. 1960. "Crime Plans Listed." Topeka Daily Capital, 03 24: 1.—. 1960. "'They'll Both Get the Rope'." Topeka State Journal, March 23: 1.—. 1960. "'Wells Was to Get Cut,' Says Hickock." Topeka State Journal, March 26.McAvoy, Gary. 2019. And Every Word is True. Bremerton, WA: Literati Editions.New York Times. 1959. "Wealthy Farmer, 3 of Family Slain." New York Times, November 16: 39.State Journal News Services. 1960. "Jury Tours Clutter Farm; Death Asked." Topeka State Journal, March 23.State of Kansas vs. Hickock & Smith. 1961. 363 P.2d 541 (Supreme Court of Kansas, July 8).Time Magazine. 1960. "Kansas: The Killers." Time Magazine, January 18.Topeka State Journal. 1965. "Clutter Case Reporter Finds Relief in End of Long Story." Topeka State Journal, April 14: 1.United Press International. 1959. "Fear, Grief Follow Murder Shock." Topeka Daily Capital, November 16: 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Elena. And I'm Ash. And this is super, super morbid. Morbido. It's just morbid. No morbid. No morbos. I don't know why.

I didn't mean to. I think I'm just feeling it. I'm feeling frisky tonight. It's the new hair. It is. It is. It's redder, so it's more fiery. Yeah, I had to dye my hair, and I have been dyeing it the same, like, Auburn

color, keeping it real, keeping it one hundred. And then Ash, went and picked out a much friscier color than I used to. And it's like a dark red. And I'm not, I'm not sure about it, but I like it a lot more than what I've liked previously different, like deviations I've taken from my Auburn color. I think it looks really good because I think it warms up your face. And you know what? I trust you because you're smart and you're a hairstylist. Yeah. And also I gave you a blow dry last night. So you have to do. Okay. Ash gave me the best blow dry. Okay.

And I was like, first of all, let me just... Let me fucking pour this hot tea all up on your face. Guys, everybody should get a blow dry by Ashkell. Don't tell them that. Because holy hell. People are you made my DMs like, blow dry my hair. Blow dry my hair. I'd be like, I don't even do my own fucking hair anymore.

It's true, though. That blow dry was great. I'm glad you liked it. I feel like a movie star. You're welcome. The funny thing is, I used to be like really mad at blow drying hair. My boss used to make fun of me and used to like literally use me as an example. Wow.

I mean like, Ashley used to suck. But look how good. She's like, don't call me Ashley. I'll kill you. But you're so good now. Yay. You are. I love it.

You know what else we're pretty good at together collectively? What are we good at? Live shows. We sure are. I love live shows. I love live shows. It's 8338. Normally my password.

Actually, I'm not going to say what it is. No, I am. Normally my password is fart. And I think it's funny for my phone. I was going to say not password for anything like in life, but just her phone. Which now I'm going to have to change. Yeah, in case I ever lose my phone, I guess. But for my eye up, a little butt.

For my iPad. It's not. And she was just trying to open it. Anyways, we're going to live shows. The next one is April 14th at the Punchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia. Be there, be square. I'm going to eat five cheese sticks. I'm going to go to the mother museum.

Shout out to the person that messaged me on my Instagram and told me where not to get cheese sticks. Yes, that's key. I was like, thank you. That's nice. Heroes wear capes. No. Then the next night we're going to be in Washington, D.C. Yeah, we're going to see all the monuments. The D.C. Improv. Hell yeah. That's April 15th. May 6th, we will be in Huntsville, Alabama at Stand Up Live. Sure will. And the week before that, I bold, I want to say it's like the first, maybe it's the third. I don't know, Google it. We'll be at CrimeCon.

We sure will, and I am so excited. I think you can still buy tickets. I think you can. Buy them. And if you want to use mobile, mobile code, mobile code. If you want to use mobile code, the promo code, more of a 2020, you can get some situation. I don't know. It's cool. Use our code. Perfect. Something happens when you use it. Okay, wait. So May 7th, we're going to be at Zanies, which is in Nashville, Tennessee. Did you know that Jackie Schimel did a live show there? Wait. Yeah. Excuse me. I meant to text you, but then I was in the shower and my hands were really wet, So I was like, don't text her yet. And then sometimes I fall if I text in the shower.

If you need a podcast that is outside of true crime, because sometimes I feel like we all sometimes need a break. I know like researching it constantly and stuff has caused me to need a lot more breaks from it. Just like some good, just fun podcast. That's why I listen to like watch what crap in since sexy unique podcast. And the bitch. Newest one is the bitch Bible with Jackie Schimel. It's fucking hilarious. If you don't have a sense of humor, don't listen to it because you'll get very offended

at various things. But if you have a great sense of humor, go listen to it and you will love it. It's incredible. She is amazing. Her husband wakes her up with a macha latte every day, so I aspire to be her. She's amazing. I don't even fucking like macha. Go listen to it.

Okay. But anyway, so we're going to be at Zanis where fucking Jackie Schimel the queen was. Hell yes. So listen to our podcast, Jackie Schimel. May 7th, we will be there early. And then we'll be there late. We'll be there two times. We're going to be all up in there. We're going to be all up in you, Nashville. I'm going to be glued to my seat at Zanis. That's right. Taxidermy me there. Anyways, after that, June 12th, which is my birth weekend. So, weekend of birth. Whoa. It was me laughing. It's been a situation tonight. We're going to be June 12th at Talia Hall in Chicago.

Oh, that place looks so badass. I think Andy's going to come to that one. Yay, Annie. She's also coming to Philly and D.C. Yay, Anna. Woo. And John will be coming to various ones. And just remember that, like, my birth weekend in Chicago. June 12th. My real birthday is June 8th. I was going to say, that's not your actual birthday, but it's my birth weekend. That's your birth weekend. I'm sorry. And June is my birth month. So everybody that comes to a show in June, just remember how special June is. Wow, sirs. You're welcome. There you go. I'm humble. So now that we've discussed Ash's birth weekend and month and day, I think we should just dive right into this case because I'm real excited about it.

Do you think I'm a narcissist? Yes, because you just brought it back to you when I tried to bring it to the case. I just thought I had to ask that before. Do you see what I deal with everybody? Do you see this? Well, I just like to ask anyways. So back to the case. We are doing the case of the mummy in the drag queen's closet.

And no, not mummy as in like English. No, like an actual like Egyptian almost mummy. Not quite, but like, yeah. So this is a story surrounding Dorian Corey. If you guys have not seen the documentary Paris is Burning by Jenny Livingston. What are you doing with your life? Go watch it because it'll just change everything about you. So do it.

So both, so I was going to do two cases in this, this episode that are both part of Paris's burning, like revolve around people in Paris is burning. But I got so into the Dorian Corey case that I've decided we will cover the other one in a separate episode because... It'll be Paris's Burning Part 2. Exactly. So the other case I was going to cover was the really sad and tragic murder of Venus Extravaganza. We will cover that in another one. But tonight is Dore and Corey's night. Also, if you don't watch Pose, which is, I think it's on FX.

It's also on Netflix now. Paris is burning. That's what they based Pose off off of. Yes. They did. It's good that this is your case. It's happening today. I'm like, uh, uh, uh.

So Paris is burning in case you don't know what it is. It's a documentary film from 1990. It was made by Jenny Livingston. The film explores the underground drag ball culture from the time, which is still going on today. It's just like, you know, a lot of people don't know about this, but this film really dives deep into it. And it really displays the challenges that these people faced while trying to be just be, be who they are. I was going to say just, and just express their creativity.

There's discussions of racism, homophobia, transphobia, class discrimination. They talk about AIDS, the fear that surrounds the word AIDS and how AIDS was often used as hurled as like an insult. Like as soon as they meet a queer person,

they're like, you must have AIDS. It's like it's so terrible. It's so terrible. They talk about sex work and how some queens at the time had no choice but to result to it to survive. And so they talk about the challenges for sure, and it's eye-opening, it's tragic at times. But it's also amazing and inspiring at times.

So aside from the challenges and the hardships, the film also explores the fascinating side of drag queen, dragball culture. We get to see how Vogueing came into the lexicon. Which is the most incredible thing I've ever seen. It's amazing to watch. Because it's not just like, Vogue. Vogue did not come from Madonna. No. And that's the thing that it's like a lot of people think Madonna, because I think, and I could be wrong, I believe I read somewhere that she called herself like the mother of Vogue. She's not. She's not. She saw a drag ball and that's where she got the idea for the song Vogue and everything. But like her vogue of just like framing her face is not what Vogue is. She would have lost that ball competition.

Vogue is some serious shit. Like I was going to mention this at the end. But if you. I know we talked about America's Next Top Model and how we were watching old episodes. I think we talked about it last week in the last week's episode. But if you guys ever watched that show and they had like this posing expert on, Benny Ninja, he's from this drag like queen ballroom vogueing scene. And I'll get into it later. But it's it's so all around us and so ingrained and everything and we don't even know it. So yeah.

So Madonna did not. start the vogue thing. So you find out in this in this documentary what reading is, how the term shade and realness were introduced into the mainstream culture. And it gave me an appreciation for the influence that ball culture has had on us all now. Yeah. You don't even realize it. We all say, yes, queen.

And like, call people shady and say like realness and be like, oh my God, she just got red to filth. You know what I mean? Like all that shit. This is all directly from these ball competitions. That's directly from them. They made that shit up. They brought that shit into the lexicon.

And it lasted. And here's Dorian. I had to include this clip because it makes me laugh every time talking about shade and how in realness and all that. I'm so ready for this. Then reading a developed form where it became shade. Shade is, I don't tell you're ugly. But I don't have to tell you because you know you're ugly.

And that's shade. I love that. That is my favorite thing ever. Wait, that's like a mean girl's when she's like, I don't hate you because you're fat. You're fat because I hate you. Amazing. It's crazy. So the balls were initially kind of started around the 60s and they were mainly just for queer people of color to have a place to express themselves and a community of safety and acceptance.

And it still is today at this point. Vogueing was created at these balls. We get to see in this film all the massive preparation that goes into a ball, like from the costumes, which most of them create themselves from scratch. The themes, the performance, the competition, and the different houses that came about as a result. So like we said, Benny Ninja is from the house of ninja. So the houses, you know, House of Ninja, House of LaBasia, House of Extravaganza, House of Corey. These houses were created in the vein of famous fashion houses like Chanel, Dior. They were created as a sanctuary for members of the drag community.

And these houses have house mothers. They have house fathers. And a lot of these people like straight up live together. Oh yeah. They literally act like surrogate families. And for performers, they provide shelter, food, support. They became families. Yeah, they literally are.

Like in the, and again, we're not talking about Venus extravaganza in this one, but I believe one of Venus extravaganza's actual siblings after her death was referred to her drag family and her actual family. Wow. And he said like her drag family. And that was the extravaganzas were her drag family. So they really were. Now, among the various characters that this documentary put into the spotlight is drag queen

legend, Dorian Corey. Dorian Corey kind of She resides over the documentary As this like grand queen She's like the mother Yeah she just the documentary She provides this amazing commentary over it And she's seen for much of it

In her own apartment slow in her apartment's just like You see feathers everywhere and just like glamour It's what I like when I live by myself But it's also like this like dark kind of like seedy kind of apartment But it has all this like glamour shit everywhere and she's seen for most of it in that apartment slowly getting ready in full drag like she starts out with no makeup on her hair's just in a little bun she's wearing just like a regular little like silk robe and then she sits at her makeup table with her makeup mirror all let all backlit and she puts on a full face and it is and it's just slowly happening in front of you while it's like a transformation yeah and it's like throughout the whole documentary she's just putting on this full face while like giving this amazing commentary it's just awesome.

Dorian was the house mother of her own house, house of Corey. She was on the Joan Rivers show in 1991 after this came out, after this Paris was born and she explained the house culture as, quote, you'll lend money to your friends, not very much money, and give advice sometimes. If someone got evicted or whatever, you might take them in. So she actually was initially house mother to one Angie extravaganza who went on. to form the house of extravaganza. Which is also the first episode of Pose. Exactly.

Shout to Annie. Dorian's birth name was Frederick Legg. She was born and grew up in Buffalo, New York in 1937. She grew up on a farm and began doing drag at a very early age in Buffalo. She ended up graduating from Parsons School of Design, which is where Project Runway used to be filmed in the good old days of Project Runway. Now they have Carly Clause be. the host and I don't like it. And Tim Gunn isn't even on there. I won't even get on to that.

I don't understand why they got rid of Tim Gun. It's awful. I mean, I love Christian Serriano, but he's no Tim Gun. Nobody's a Tim Gun other than Tim Gun. But I digress. She started out as a window dresser, which is actually where a lot of famous people in fashion started. Like, Giorgio Armani actually started out of this window dresser. It's kind of like a good way to dip your toe in. It is, because it's design. Right. She was extremely talented in design, and she used these talents in her education from Parsons to become one of the most sought-after costume designers and seamstresses. There we go. Seamstresses.

Seamstresses. Lots of us. I got it. Seamstresses for the drag ball scene in New York City. So throughout the 1960s, she actually toured with a drag cabaret group called the Pearl Box Review. Yes. Amazing. She often performed with a giant live boa constrictor la Brittany.

Why wouldn't you? Way before Brittany. See how everybody's just full circle. The group toured a ton of venues along the East Coast. They even had an LP called Call Me Mister from 1972, and it was like four of them, and she was a part of it. She became a fixture at the drag balls in New York City in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. She won over 50 grand prizes at the balls. She mentored younger participants and also created costumes for them.

In the 80s, Dorian was a mainstay as the performance. at Sally's Hideaway in New York City, which was a prominent venue for drag performers. Cool. She also moved over to Sally's Two, which the original burnt down, the original Sally's Highway. So they moved to another place and just called it Sally's Two. That's cool. She was beloved.

I mean, beloved. Nobody had really a nasty thing to say about her. All they would say was like she was gentle, she was kind, she would like do anything for anyone, but you did not fuck with her. That's the only thing that people said. They were like, she would never come at you unless you came at her. Unless you provoked her. And it was like, but when she

do not fuck with her, which I love. I love that. That's my favorite quality. That's all I want. Like be a good person, but like, don't be fucked with. No. That's all you need to be. Don't let people fuck with you. Now, drag queens of all ages and backgrounds said they could count

on Dorian as a mentor, as a shoulder to cry on if needed. She would give advice, clothing. She would take people in and under her wing. She was also a fucking riot. Like, just watch her and Paris is burning and you will fall in love. And like very like, like, like, like, uh, understated. Oh yeah. Like, she's witty and sarcastic, but wicked dry. Edit out like of the likes that I have to say. Like, like, like. Um, but watching her in that documentary makes you want her to be in your life. Yes. Like in RIP because she's gone. But When you watch it, you're just like, damn it, I want to hang out with you.

Like, I just want Dory and Corey to be sitting there just like commentating on shit. So she was a fierce competitor, though. Like I said, you did not fuck with her. On the ballroom circuit, she was a force to be reckoned with. One of her costumes had a huge feather cape that she created herself, and it turned into a tent that covered the entire audience. Stop. Like, no shit. Can you imagine?

Covered the entire audience. How do you even make that? How do you even learn to make that? She's a fucking badass, man. How do you get that many feathers? She's supremely talented when it came to costumes. That's so cool. She lived in Harlem on West 140th Street, and at the time it was a really bad neighborhood, like real bad.

Legit gunfights broke out during the filming of Paris's burning. While it happened, Jenny Livingston said that all of a sudden she heard gunshots outside the window, and Dorian was super casual, just said gunfight at OK Corral, and then just moved on. Like just whatever. She's like, so that's regular. Her last performance was May 8th, 1993 at Sally's for their Grammy night where she got Entertainer of the Year. Love it.

She died at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center in Manhattan, August 23, 1993, from complications due to the AIDS virus. She was only 56 years old. That's pretty young. I know. That's really sad. That is sad. After her death, all of these costumes and belongings and treasures were left.

in her apartment. Her fellow drag performer, Lois Taylor, was kind of like her caretaker. Like, she cared for Dorian during her final days. She was in charge of her estate. Lois is the one who found the shocking item in her apartment after her death that we are going to discuss. She had instructed her closest friends, and especially Lois, she said, take what costumes you want and then sell the rest or give the rest away.

I imagine she just wanted her hard. work to be used, you know, like she didn't want it just to be garbage. Right. So Lois told New York magazine that they went into the apartment with customers. Lois said, quote, oh my God, with customers. Yes. So Lois said, quote, child, it's what Dorian told me to do. Take the costumes I wanted and sell the rest. So I had customers. They were going to a Halloween show. When asked if it was a dragball that they were going to, Lois said, no, no, no. It was straight people. They wanted Dorian's capes. She was one hell of a seamstress, honey. One time she wore a gold cape that covered the whole ballroom for. Amazing. So Lois brings these people up there. And it's just two like straight dudes. I'm

pretty sure that just like wanted capes. And they enter the small walk-in closet that housed most of Dorian's amazing costumes. And in this room there was a green plaid garment bag that like a hanging garment bag. Yeah. It was big. It was bulky and it was on the floor folded over. Did no one noticed it and I was like, what's that crazy garment bag? It was just a random garment bag. Lois said it weighed a ton. And they'd look through a ton of stuff. They couldn't really find what they were looking at for. So they went to this and were like, what's in this? Weighed a ton. So she was like, this is probably something really awesome because she loved doing like beating and shit. And she was like, this is probably something crazy beaded. And that's why it's heavy.

Right. This didn't strike them as super crazy because I was listening to the red-handed podcast about this, which red-handed is a great podcast. Go listen to them. I haven't listened to that. They're great. They point out in their coverage of this case that one of Dorian's gowns for one of the balls was a Maria Antoinette gown, like a full, huge gown, and it had a guillotine attached to a shot off. Like, so she didn't just... So maybe that's what that was. Yeah, she did not just wear a gown. She created a look. Like, she's to go with it. Went for it. So she told one of the customers, so Lois was like, you open it, go look in it. So she gave the customer some scissors that were there and she was like, just cut it open because

it was so heavy that they couldn't even get to the zipper underneath. Right. So they did. And as soon as they cut into it, the unmistakable stench of human decomph filled the room. Fun. They immediately called the police. Yeah. Good call.

And Lois told New York Magazine, quote, that's what I told the cops. I cuss them out, child. They said, if we find your fingerprints on it, and I said, I'll tell you one motherfucking thing. You might see my hands on top of that damn thing, but I only weigh 135 pounds. I couldn't move that thing. Now, this is really sad because, of course, when someone finds a dead body, the first thing the investigators have to do is clear them. But I can't help I feel like in Harlem at this time, a queer black drag queen was going to be looked at a lot worse. Well, and they're just going to peg it on you because it's the easiest thing to do.

That's the thing. They're going to peg it on you. And I feel like she felt like she had to be like, no, no, no, no, no. Like my fingerprints are going to be on it because I just touched the bag. But like, it just. I have nothing to do with this. And a lot of theories in this case are going to go back to the reason that this body was here and the police were not called could have been because Dorian Corey was a black drag queen at the time. And that was not something that the cops, you know, were going to look at as take seriously. Yeah, it's, they, they were going to be, they were, this wasn't, even now, I mean, even now people of color have to be careful who they call, when they call, what situation is going on, which sucks. Yeah, it's fucked up. But being a black drag queen in Harlem in the early 90s at this point, it was going to, it was not going to be an easy situation. Well, I'm sure you had to kind of like take it upon your own hands. Yeah. Is this worth?

It's, honestly, and at this, at this, at this. point there's a there's a quote from Dorian that says he's she's talking about realness and she says that if you can make it realness is being able to walk from the subway home and returning home not covered in blood oh god it as yourself and that's when you have like passed and your realness and she says it's usually the younger ones that can do that but like she's literally talking about if you can walk from the subway to your home without getting the shit kicked out of you just for being who you are right then you've past the realness dust. Right. That sucks. That's awful. But that gives you an idea of like what

was going on at this time especially. Right. And obviously today it's still a situation. Yeah. So it just sucks. So inside of this garment bag, there was a dead body. Mm-hmm. Partially mummified. It was a man in the fetal position with a bullet in his head, covered in baking soda, plastic bags, and wrapped in nogahide. What is naga hide? Nogahide. Nogahide. Glad you asked. Nagahide is a rubber-based artificial leather. Like, the kind that is in, like, fake leather jackets. Oh, okay. Yeah.

And why baking soda? Just for the smell. Oh, okay. So, like, you'll put, like, baking soda in the back of your refrigerator to kind of keep everything smelling fresh. Oh, yeah. I did know that. Yeah.

So he was wearing ragged, blue and white boxers and nothing else. Okay. He was yellow and purple and partially mummified, like I said. This means that he was also partially decomposed. Right. Now inside, real stanky. So inside of the bag with him was an array of beer can flip tops. Like when they opened the bags, the bags like fell out, like all these flip tops fell out.

Yeah. These flip tops had not been used since the 70s, which made them believe he was dead between 15 and 25 years at the time. I have a little problem with that being used to time him, like to date his death. Because like those could have just been in the bag that they used to put on top of him. Right, right. before he was, you know what I mean? Because I don't think he was dead for that long. Right. I just don't believe, I have no real basis for that. You think he would have been more decomposed? I don't know. No, I mean, he could have been fairly, because he was partially mummified.

Sure. Keeping him in like an airtight thing like that definitely would have helped. But I don't know. I just like, like, I think the timeline doesn't add up with what I think happened. So I'm just like, maybe I'm forming it to my own timeline. But I still just think, I mean, they didn't use those laptops as like the definitive. Yeah. But they used it as like help. helping to aid the timeline. Right. So a murder investigation was now active because he had a bullet hole in his head. It's like we know.

The lead investigators on the case were Alfred Travers and John Rowe. The forensic specialist on the case was Raoul Figueroa. Raul Figueroa is the only one that will actually like talk about this case. The other two are just like, harump, harrumph, it's an active investigation. I'm not talking about it. Like, rude. Yeah. So Figaro is great.

He's real. He's real. And he was also like a mortician. I mean, he was awesome. Yeah. So Figueroa was really innovative as well in forensics. And he, so we need to find out we. I'm like me. I was involved in this investigation. They needed to find out who this guy was. Right. And obviously, you know, he can be a little difficult. And so they were like, who the fuck are you? So what they did was they cut the fingers each finger at the second joint. And they used them to try to identify the body. He used a secret technique that he will not give away, which is like good on him. That's cool. He did it over seven days to make the fingerprints readable again. He basically hardened them up somehow with like some technique. He was able to get all 10 fingerprints, which is nuts.

To this day, he still won't say what he did? Still won't say what he did. I wonder why, though, because it could help. Because it's a good technique. Well, because like it's his technique. But what if he dies and then he dies with that technique? I think that kind of stinks. I think you should share it. I don't know. Go Figorella. That's what I say. I just think he could like aid in further investigations. I'm sure other people have techniques as well.

Yeah, whatever. But you know. I digress. What happened was the fingertips had all, they'd all worn away to, like, because of the first layers of skin had worn away because of slippage. And it basically causes those layers of skin to goo away. And that's a scientific term, gooo away. And I thought you were talking about slippage. No, gooo away. Oh, okay. That's very scientific.

One word or two? Slipage is a scientific. Gooo away is not. Thank you. Slipage had occurred because the body was decades old. Since like I said, it had partially decomposed, Figueroa said, quote, when you have, and this is real gross, when you have all of this wrapping, no air is getting to it, but it's still losing liquid out of its body.

So the body sort of floats in its own soup. Yummy. So that's why the slippage occurred. It's floating in its own soup. So slippage is occurring. And I'm just going to get sciencey for a second here because any chance I can. You are? You never do that.

If anyone listened to my body farm episode, you might know a little bit about this. But the two phases of decomposition can be simplistically broken down to autolysis and putrefaction. I like that word. Which one? Putre fraction. I like that too. Putrophat. Autolysis is basically self-digestion.

So we're examples of aerobic organisms, opposed to anaerobic organisms, which means we thrive in an environment with oxygen. We also respire anaerobically, but like that's another podcast entirely. But when aerobic organisms die, the body becomes rife with carbon dioxide. Okay. This environment causes necrosis or one of the forms of cell death, the other being apoptosis. Apoptosis is different because it's triggered by pretty normal things in the body like menstruation. It's called programmed cell death apoptosis. And necrosis is triggered by injury, trauma, and it's premature cell death.

Okay. So necrosis is unprogrammed cell death, and it will cause a cascade effect that breaks. down other cellular structures in the body. And because the body is not actively producing an immune response to clean up those dead cells, because normally like phagocytes would come out and they would clean up those dead cells. So these dead cells collect and they break down other structures. So autolysis is happening in a couple of days. And first there's going to be bully, which are postules on the skin filled with fluid. Bullies are postules. They are. Like, cysts on the skin. So skin

slippage starts occurring at this point and the skin will slaw off in big sheets. I don't like coleslaw. Like, okay. Like an entire sheet of skin on a hand will come off in like

a de-gloving situation. Are you done? So that's fun. I just wanted you all to know the science. No, you're really smart. I bet a lot of people appreciate that. I hope you guys do. Including myself, I do. I also appreciate that. Thank you. You're welcome. So anyways, this bitch went to Harvard. Anyways, the body was identified as Robert Bobby Warley. He was a black man. He was 510, 140 pounds approximately. He was born December 18th, 1938. He had been arrested in

1963 for assaulting and raping a woman. Great. And he served at Sing Sing for three years. And he came-It's called Sing-Sing? You've never heard of that prison? No. Wow. Look at that guys. Thanks for calling me out 2020. So he came from. from a family of seven kids from North Carolina. So the question was, what happened here and how did he end up with a bullet in his head stuffed in a garment bag in Dorian Corey's apartment closet? Self-defense, I'm already calling it. I think so too. Dorian Corey does nothing wrong. I'm calling it. Well, the theories were mainly that they had a relationship and she had to protect herself. Maybe, you know, she shot him in self-defense during a fight. He already raped one woman.

Or that he was an intruder who was robbing her since it was a bad neighborhood and she shot him in self-defense. Dorian did have a 22 caliber gun for protection. So according to the New York magazine piece on this case, which I'm going to link in the show notes because it's a great piece and everyone should read it. Cool. Bobby Worley got out of Sing Sing in 1966 and around 6768, he went to live with his brother Fred in New York City. just for a bit. He changed his name to Bobby Wells and he was a raging alcoholic. Perfect. His brother said he had a son that he abandoned, like didn't see. Great guy. And while living with him, he became infatuated with a woman who lived next door. He ended up, quote, roughing up her son, who was seven years old when she refused his advances. Roughing up her son. Ruffing up a seven-year-old

because his mother would not date him. Like that was, going to make her want to date him. Exactly. And she threatened to call the police. So after three months of living with his brother, he just split and disappeared. That was the last he had like, or no, he heard from him one more time. But he was like, he basically just disappeared after that. As soon as he heard police, he was like, by now. And he was probably like, good riddance. And it's like, yeah, rough up a seven-year-olds, a child of a woman and she'll definitely fall all over herself for you. Dating 101. You fucking idiot. And you know what? I'm sure somebody's going to email and be Like, he is dad. How dare you call him an idiot?

He's a rapist. He raped a woman and he beat up a seven-year-old. So I really... Don't email me. Don't at me. That came from Vogueing. Yeah. So, let's see.

So he disappeared. In fact, when they heard he was dead, his family, they had him buried in a potter's field in Hart's Island. They unclaimed and buried by the city because they were like, yeah, cool. All right. I relate to that. Yeah. Like, they were not into it.

You're buried in a Potter's field. So his brother also ended up talking to this reporter for the New York magazine piece. And he said his brother did have a relationship with a transgender woman. He said one night he called him shit-faced and thought he had called this woman. So Fred just stayed on the line and like just like, what's the tea? So he called her Dorian. Okay. When asked if he could have abused.

So the reporter was like, could he have abused or tried to hurt Dorian? He was like if he was in a relationship. And his brother believed that it was likely as he was a piece of absolute garbage. Correct. So they were like, he was like, yeah, he definitely could have abused her. And like, that could have been something that happened. When asked if it seemed like Dorian had intentionally wrapped the body, like they asked some of her like friends if or in the investigators, like, did you think that Dorian intentionally wrapped the body like a mummy in some like Egyptian process because she was extra? Like, was this like something she wanted to? Maybe she just didn't want it to stink up her house.

Well, Figueroa said, no. He said, quote, and I love this. I love this quote from him. Hit me up. Quote, I don't think so. People just wrap a body in whatever's available. It's just spontaneous. You wrap it up, then you put it in a suitcase, then you put it in the closet, then you just look at it periodically and wish it would go away. I mean, same. As one does. Absolutely. Now back to the theories. Okay. There is another theory that I hate. I don't like this theory. It says that Dorian was protecting the killer of Worley, like she was not actually the one who killed him,

that she was protecting whoever killed this guy. I don't like it because it doesn't make sense. You don't think it's possible? People postured that maybe when Dorian moved into the apartment in the late 80s because she moved 10 blocks from another apartment in the late 80s. Okay. Whoever lived there before was someone she knew and that person left her a little prison in the form of a dead body in a bag.

So people think she may have harbored this physical thing as well as the secret for whoever did it. I don't agree. I don't think this is it. I think this is relying too hard on that beer flip can flip top theory. Oh, okay. Because the thing is, the medical examiner said he could have been dead between one year and 25 years. Oh, wow. They just couldn't time it because he was so, they had just.

In various states. messed with the time of death so much with this wrapping and like partially decomposed partially mummified there was literally no way to tell yeah no way um so to say that just because of those those fliptops were in the wrapping that he had to have been killed when those were on the market doesn't fly with me you're right it doesn't yeah it just doesn't so i think he could have been dead for much less time but uh sorry i have something in my eye that's a good um i personally think he was in there for a few years at least for sure. Yeah. And I mean, it could have been like close to 10 at that point and still put him in the apartment alive when she was there. Right. I just, that that one just doesn't have enough like

grit to it. Well, like you said before, like she would protect you until you wronged her. I feel like she probably would have viewed that as like wronging her. Yeah. Like don't leave me with your fucking problem. Like I'm sorry. Who is she going to protect for that? Yeah. And a lot of people, um, and I think I mentioned it a little while. Like a lot of people point to Lois Taylor, the one who found the bag. for this, but I'll get into that in a second. Okay. So the second theory is about... I think that's too convenient. It is. So the second theory is about

like a robbery or an intruder or a home invasion. Sure. Several sources said that there was a note attached to the body in Dorian's handwriting that said, quote, this poor man broke into my home and was trying to rob me. No note has ever been

put forth of that. And the dude was dressed in only boxers. Right. So, I mean, I can't speak for all home invaders because I am not one. But, like, I know I wouldn't break into someone's house wearing just my underwear. I didn't like, that's just, but like, I don't know. What are you wearing Jake from State Farm?

Like, I just don't think he would break into her apartment wearing just boxers. Like, just raggedy old boxers. And then people are like, well, maybe she got rid of the clothes. thing he had on, but like, first of all, why would she get rid of his clothes thing? That's stupid. That would be weird. And two, why would she only leave his boxers on? Maybe he was wearing something hell of fetch and she used it for a costume. I'm not kidding. That'd be sick. Maybe he had like a nice leather coat on and she was like, this would go lovely

with my thing that's going to cover the entire fucking ballroom floor. There you go. And you wronged me, so I'm a use it. I just don't think so. Probably not. But, you know, that's nice. And remember the police Again if this was this whole like intruder robbery self-defense thing He was also shot in the back of the head You don't normally shoot home invaders in the back of the head I don't know like you're usually just shooting at them because they're in your home You're not really like execution style shooting them in the back of the head

Yeah I mean again I don't know but to me that's not like super lining up with it And then it's like people will be like well if that was the case she could have just called the policeman like he was invading my home. But not back to shoot him. But it goes back to this is a black drag queen. Right. The police are not going to buy. He broke into my home and I had to shoot him out of protection. She would have been a jail forever. Right. Like that would have just been it. So the third theory is the lover's theory. Okay. This I believe, I think. Okay. So this is the theory that says that Dory and Corey and Worley had a relationship of some kind, be it like a full-blown relationship or just like a sexual relationship,

like some form of relationship, in that it was either abusive, you know, just in general or that they got in some kind of fight. She felt threatened and she shot him in self-defense. Right. Maybe he came at her. We don't know. Again, the only people who know this are Dori and Corey and Bobby Worley.

Correct. But they both took it to the grave. I think the fact that his own brother said that he called him once and called him Dorian. It was talking like they were in a relationship. In fact, Fred, his brother said that when he was calling him Dorian, he was like acting like he was trying to smooth over a quarrel. They had had. So this all kind of adds up. And then also, Dorian's doorman said that they were lovers. Okay.

And that he used to see him come into the apartment. Right. And he also said like, yeah, he's dead. And then he was like, I also used to hear them like fighting and he was definitely abusive. So this all kind of leads me to believe. I mean, the Dorian thing with his brother really makes me think that this is what the case was. Right. No one can really confirm this because everyone's like, I don't know, she might just not have told us about Bobby.

Right. I don't think he was really someone you went told all your friends about. So I think that is the case. And again, if this is the case, she's not going to go to the police. a self-defense thing for the same reason. So it all makes sense. So Lois, Taylor, said that she gave a paper to police,

and it was like yellow and old. And the paper had handwriting by Dorian, and it was a story idea of sorts. Okay. Lois said, quote, it said something about wanting her to have a sex change. It said something about revenge, and revenge ends up in murder.

And then she said, quote, she wrote revenge and murder and she put a question mark. It was like she was writing a story, honey. Like murder she wrote. But I don't know. The way this shit was written out, I know it clarified me. Can you explain further? What I think happened was she wrote this little story about this person who wanted to, about these two lovers. And that this man wanted this person to have a sex change.

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay, okay. And she and... The other person didn't want to. Yeah. And that they didn't want to do it. The person got angry and it ended up in murder.

Now, what if the case was that Bobby Worley maybe found out that she was not fully transitioned, like, as in, like, did not have full, like, sex reassignment surgery and got angry and it ended up violent. And this is what happened. Right. And it ended up, maybe she was writing what happened. Yeah. You know, and making, informing it like a story. And I mean, she did, like I said, she did have a 22.

She once handed Jesse Torres, her good friend and the owner of Sally's too. Her handbag before performing, and it was super heavy. So Jesse was like, what the fuck is in here? And she's like, my 22. She said, quote, just a little 22. If someone messes with me, I'm going to fill him with lead. Yes, honey. Like so.

Yes, queen. She was like this gentle, loving, caring, amazing, like witty, sarcastic human. And then also she was like, I will fuck you up if you fuck with me. Yeah, don't fuck with me. Which I think is just funny. She's too real. Now, Lois Taylor is, like I said, she was part of this whole, like, maybe she was covering for someone. So people think that Lois Taylor could have did it.

Implanted Bobby Worley. They think, like, maybe they had maybe something was going on there. But she couldn't even pick up the bag. Exactly. Now they think like, you know, did she plant it after Dorian died, she thought this is perfect. I'll just put this body in her apartment. She's gone. She can't get in trouble for it.

But then also, why would she have handed somebody scissors? Well, that's the thing. Well, people say that that is her not touching and not being the one to discover it. But it's like, why would you even bring attention to it? Exactly. That's exactly the reason I don't believe this one is because if she did do it. that, then she could have just done what Dorn and Corey probably did, which is just leave it in a bag, leave it in your closet. And when you die, someone else will find it. And no one will know

what happens and you're out of this, you're free. Right. So it's like, why would she purposely bring it out into the light? I just doesn't make any sense. And then hope that no one ties it to her. Like that doesn't. Especially at the time that it was still, I don't think she would have been like, here, open this bag. Exactly. Because I did this. And then she and she probably knew that. Yeah. So I don't think she would have done that. Like you have. Like, you have. to know that like as careful as you can be you could be tied back to you if you did it so and at that time i just feel like you couldn't be careful yeah exactly so that one i don't believe yeah um drag queen pepper lebeja who you love that name who you will meet from the house of labasia

um in paris's burning um pepper lebeza thought she did it pepper lebeza thought that dorian thought that lois taylor did oh okay um the story was supposedly given to police that story that Lois claimed that Dorian wrote, that story about the whole like revenge. That story, that little piece of paper was supposedly given to police. Lois said she gave it to the police. Yeah. No one's ever seen it. Okay. Now, again, I don't believe this. Do you think it's hearsay? Do you think it was never written? I think it was written. Okay. I think that's a very weird thing to make up. Yeah. Like a very specific thing to make up. Right. Again, we don't know all of these people. Most of these people are gone now. So it's really just anybody's guess. But

to me, if Lois Taylor did do that and then like put it in Dorian, Dorian Corey's closet because she was dead and she couldn't get in trouble, that's a recipe for an angry-ass ghost. So I don't think that's a good idea at all. And you know, Dorian Corey would like come back in the afterlife and fuck up your shit. She would read you to filth every day of your life. That's what she would do. She would be keeping it real from the grave. Keeping it real. And so there is also to further back up that Bobby. Worley and Dorian Corey probably knew each other in some capacity. There's a deathbed confession of sorts from Dorian Corey.

Okay. So she... She's like, don't clean my closet. She spoke to another friend, Sally. It was while she was in her final days, she was on, you know, the medication for the AIDS virus. She was deteriorating rapidly. She was kind of out of it, like kind of talking a little bit of nonsense here and

there because it really does neurologically fuck you up. Yeah, of course. And when she spoke to Sally, Jesse heard her tell Sally, I have a secret. And basically mentioned, like, there's no, like, full transcript of this conversation. Obviously. But basically told her, I killed someone. Okay. Like said it.

And so people were like, I don't know if that's just, like, her nonsense because she's on this medication and she's in her final days. and she's really like everywhere or if this is real. I think it's too much of a coincidence. Yeah, it is, it's very coincidental if it is a coincidence. Exactly. So, that was a really dumb thing to say. It's really coincidental for a coincidence.

That would be real coincidental for a coincidence. This is why no person should ever have me around. I love you. This is why we should all have me around. So that's basically all that we have of the. case. No one knows to this day what the hell happened. All we know is that Bobby Worley died with a bullet to his head. He was partially mummified and in Dorian Corey's closet. And he was an asshole. And he was an asshole. He got red to filth. Now, the Dorian Corey Awards are a thing now. I love that. And they're

known as the Oscars of Philly Ballroom. Yes. And they're on like the 25th annual one now or something like that. Wait, in Philly? Yeah, in Philly. Can we go? Right. I don't know when they are, but I want to go. Let's find out. It would be amazing. And like Ash has mentioned about Pose, Pose had an episode inspired by this story. The episode was called Butterfly Cacoon. Okay. And it was one of the drag queens they find a body mummified in their closet. Oh shit. I haven't seen that episode yet. I think it's like Electra is the drag queen who ends up. Because Electra is who Dorian Corey is modeled after. There you go. Because Electra in the in the first episode, Venus leaves Electra. Spoiler. Spoiler. And like I mentioned earlier, Benny Ninja, who is on America's Next Top Model as a post person. And he is fierce as far. So fierce. He was the father of House Ninja. And that title was given to him by Willie Ninja, who was in Paris is burning. Oh, I love this so much. He gave up that post to Javier Ninja after, and this is really sad. He was emotionally shaken and injured by a train derailment. Oh, geez. He was okay. Like, he was. He was okay. Like, he.

lived, but he just, like, was really shaken up by it. Yikes. So we had to give up his title as house father. And he's like an amazing dancer. Yeah. So, yeah, so he was on America's Next Top Model. And before we, um, end to this, I just want to leave us on a quote by Dori and Corey from Paris's burning. One might say the best quote. One might say. Um, so here it is. As you get older and I just say, well, yeah, you still might make an impression. Everybody wants to leave something behind them, some impression, some mark upon the world. Then you think you left a mark on the world if you just get through it. And a few people remember your name. Then you left them all.

You don't have to bend the whole world. I think it's better to just enjoy it. Pay your dues and enjoy it. If you shoot a... arrow and it goes real high. Hooray for you. I think that's an amazing quote to end this on. Hooray for you. Hooray for you. And Dory and Corey certainly

left her mark on this world. She lives on. And I'm sure you know, Bobby Worley had potential to be a good person, but he chose the other way. We all have potential to be a good person. No one deserves to be murdered. I'm not saying anybody deserves to be murdered, for sure. But, you know, if it was self-defense, it's self-defense. I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah. Don't be rude. And, you know, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know if Dory and Corey murdered anyone. We don't know. We just don't know. All we know is that she was a fabulous queen.

I feel like we're going to have really good posts for this when we post about the episode. I think so, too. I think so, too. And if you haven't seen Paris as burning. Yeah, go watch it, guys, because it's seriously. It's really good. It'll give you so many different. emotions all at once. Back when me and Elena could watch movies together, now we can't,

because there's always like 500 kids running around this place. Just three, but one of them can't even walk. It feels like fun. We watched it like one afternoon in the summer and I remember being just like glued to the TV, like thinking it was so cool. It's just crazy. And I, the first time I saw it was in my gender studies class in college. And I was like, whoa. Like it just blew my brain apart because I had no idea. I'm just some like, no, and white girl from Massachusetts. Massachusetts, you know what I mean? Like cisgender straight white girl from Massachusetts, I knew nothing of this. That shit will culture you. But it was so cool to me. And it's, and it's like, and it also was like really sad that like these people didn't have anywhere to go. You know what I mean?

But it was, and then it was like all at once uplifting that they like created a place for them to go. You know, it was just like all these different like, oh man, this is sad. Oh, that's so cool. Oh, it's so inspiring. Like, blah. It's like an inspiring. And then at the things. And it's really tragic. So yeah. And then watch it. When you're done watching that, go watch Pose. I think there's two seasons.

Yes. I just started it. And then I took like a long break because I can never keep up with TV shows. I can't do it. Neither can I. It's really good. I actually haven't watched Pose yet. I've been remiss.

It's from the same. I can't think of his name. I suck. But the same director that does AHS. Yeah. So I'm in. Yeah. It's so good.

Yeah. I'm going to go watch it when I get home. I'm a do it. So go watch that and go. watch Paris Burning and look out for our Instagram post about this. Yeah. And if you don't follow us on Instagram, you can do so. I love a good transition at Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on the Twitter. A Morbid Podcast. Join the Facebook group. Morbid colon, a true crime podcast. Send us an email, but not one that says that we shouldn't have said some of this stuff because we said it and there's no going back.

Sound in the universe. Morbid Podcast at gmail.com. Um, and And then you could donate to our Patreon. Patreon.com slash morbid podcast. And that's all we have. That's all she wrote. That is all she wrote. Right? Yeah.

That's all she wrote. Oh, and hey, keep your eyes peeled this week. Oh, yes. Because we're going to be announcing a couple things. Keep your eyes peeled. Couple places. Couple of things. Couple events.

Couple of situations, if you will. So I'm going to shut my mouth now. I don't know. Just keep a lookout on Monday. I don't know. I'm just saying. Just phone a friend. Yeah.

That made no sense. I loved it. So we hope you keep listening. And we hope you... Keep it. Weird. But not so weird that you got a close in your closet for all over 20 fucking years.

Heyo. But just like, do it anyway. Don't do it. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do that.