Morbid - The Devil Made Me Do It

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

On the evening of February 16, 1981, nineteen-year-old Arne Johnson stabbed his friend and landlord Alan Bono to death during an argument, after which Johnson fled the scene and was arrested several miles away later that night. Under normal circumstances, the murder of one man by another in a small town would hardly register on the scale of national, or even regional news, but if Arne Johnson was to be believed, these weren’t ordinary circumstances. According to Arne, the devil made him do it.Thank you to Dave White for research assistance.References:Associated Press. 1986. "Man released early in 'demon murder case'." Hartford Courant, January 23: 47.Brozek, Diane. 1981. "Teen-ager charged in 'possession' case." Hartford Courant, March 20: 11.Carl Glatzel Jr. et al v. Gerald Brittle et al. 2010. DBCV-08-4008461-S (Connecticut Superior Court Judicial District of Danbury, October 25).Christoffersen, John. 2007. "Suit vs. psychic says demon murder was a hoax." Record-Journal, October 10: M3.Clendinen, Dudley. 1981. "Defendant in murder puts the devil on trial." New York Times, March 23: B1.Galup. n.d. Religion. Accessed May 10, 2023. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1690/religion.aspx.Harris, John. 1981. "Bizarre happenings surround killing in Brookfield." Hartford Courant, February 27: 2.—. 1981. "Critics bedevil demonolgist, attorney in slaying case ." Hartford Courant, June 22: B1.—. 1981. "'Demon' murder case sent to Danbury jury." Hartford Courant, November 21: 8.—. 1981. "Exorcism, demons' role argued." Hartford Courant, March 15: 1.—. 1981. "Johnson guilty in demons case." Hartford Courant, November 25: 1.—. 1981. "Judge bars demonic possession defense." Hartford Courant, October 29: 1.Healion, James. 1981. "A barmaid testified Thursday that murder suspect Arne Cheyenne..." United Press International, November 5.—. 1981. "A judge Wednesday threw out the 'demon defense'." United Press International, October 28.—. 1981. "Judge Robert J. Callahan Thursday refused to reconsider his decision." United Press International, October 29.—. 1981. "The murder trial of Arne Cheyenne Johnson in Danbury." United Press International, November 13.Pionzio, Melissa. 2007. "'Factual' exorcism book evokes past pain." Hartford Courant, October 14: B1.Putcamp, Luise. 1981. "Supernatural episodes form prelude to killing." Buffalo Evening News, July 30: 1.—. 1981. "Suspect's alibi: He was possessed." Buffalo Evening News, August 5: 2.Stagis, Julie. 2014. "Killer's defense: He was possessed." Hartford Courant, April 22: B1.2006. A Haunting. Directed by Stuart Taylor. Produced by Tom Naughton.United Press International. 1981. "'Demon slayer' gets 10-to-20 year sentence." United Press International, December 18.United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. n.d. Exorcism. Accessed May 8, 2023. https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/sacraments-and-sacramentals/sacramentals-blessings/exorcism.Walzer, E.B. 1982. "Appeal dropped in 'demon' case." The Reporter Dispatch, March 19: 2. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey everybody. Before we jump into this episode, I just wanted to add a little note before it. Just to clear something up really fast. Ash and I believe that the murderer in this case is 100% to blame, as always. There is never a reason to murder someone. And especially in this case, it is completely due to homophobia. But we do discuss the Jenny Jones show and the fact that they, They do shoulder responsibility to look into and vet the mental health and mental stability of the guests that they have on their television show, particularly the ones that they're going to put into possibly triggering positions like doing ambush things too. I think this is true of any show because we don't know everybody's mental health. But again, the murder in this case is 100% to blame.

And I think sometimes that our discussion about different factors can be misconstrued as attributing blame onto something else besides the murder. The murder is 100% to blame. There are just extenuating circumstances that also aided in creating this scene to be able to happen in the first place. Just wanted to make that clear before we begin the episode, but we hope you enjoy. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. It's a real morbid. And I remembered to say what my name was before pausing. You did. You didn't pause this time. I was proud of you. Heyo. Heyo. You know, only took me two years. You got it. You're here. We're all here. We're proud of you. Let's do this together. All righty. Let's do the damn thing. I feel ready now. Let's do it. See, I'm a pump-up artist if nothing. So, I'm a pump-up artist, if nothing. So, I'm a, I think we really only have like a couple of things we wanted to touch upon before we get into this Ash-centric episode. Hi, it's me, Ash. The first thing was just some like true crime news.

I'm sure everybody has been aware that there's been some movement in the Madeline McCann case. Finally. In 2007, that case we've always wanted to cover, but there was just a lot of movement in it, and I kind of wanted to wait until the moving parts have stopped. And I think we're going to continue to wait and see on this one, because, things have really heated up in it and I don't want to do what happened with the Vanessa Gian case and have people yell at us that we did it too quick. So I'm going to wait on this one. Yeah. And wait till the final, until we figure out what's going on. Because what's happening is they have this German like pedophile essentially. He's a rapist, a

pedophile, like a genuine monster. They're calling him Christian B. They have not, which I think they should, let's just release this fucker and have. And have. about it. He's already in prison for raping a 72 year old woman. Oh my God. And it's on camera what he did. And he raped this woman in the same place in Portugal where Maddie was taken. Oh, shit. And it was like yards away from where. I'm sorry. I think you've said this before. There's many coincidences in life, but this is not one of them. That's not one of them. Also, there's not that many coincidences for life. This really not. Let's be real. Let's be real. And I, I, I mean, his van was seen, like, outside of where she was taken.

It seems plausible that she would have to be put into, like, a van or something. You know what I mean? It's just the whole thing is really adding up. They've been searching his property. They found a hidden seller in his property. They also were looking at a well on his property that had been boarded up. I'm sorry, if you have a boarded up well and a hidden seller on your property, you're up to no good. And there's somebody who's living in, like, one of the parts of the property right now.

she was renting part of it because he's not living there right now, obviously. What do you know, sis? Well, no, she, her name is Sabina Selig. And she's the one who contacted police and we're like, I think that like there might be things here. Like, I'm terrified. She actually said that she is sleeping outside because she's in such a panic that she's sleeping on a dead body.

Oh, God. I'd be like, is it okay if I break my lease? Hope you don't mind. Bye. Please and thank you. So there is, there's another case that this guy could be. connected to, it's often referred to as the German Maddie, which I don't like. I'm like, she has a name. She's a human being. Yeah, what the fuck? Madeline McCann is one person, and this

person, Inga Gericki, is a five-year-old who went missing, and she went missing May 2, 2015 from a forest in Germany. Pretty recently. And she was at a barbecue with her family. She went to get firewood with other children, and she just disappeared. Oh, my God. And what they found was that he, Christian B, had rented a parking spot very close to where her family was having this barbecue. Uh-huh, because you probably saw all the kids. How is it that this fucker is that close to this many missing children? Yeah, that just doesn't happen.

It doesn't make any sense. So they've been searching that. I mean, I'm hoping they find something that, like, gives closure. Seriously. Again, I'm not going to go fully into like the Maddie case or anything like that yet because we want to cover it in a total, like a total episode. and I have lots of thoughts, so I'll leave them here. Well, and I think it's nice to be able to cover a case in its entirety.

Yeah, it's like, sure, it's nice. Whenever we get updates, it's fun to be like, whoa, guys, this is updated. But if we can get a full, you know, some closure at the end of it, obviously, that's the best of it. It'd be nice to wrap it up with a neat little bow on top. And we got time, because what are we all doing, you know? We're all here together. Yeah, we'll just wait around for it. We're all in this together.

We're all going to pretend that that didn't happen. We're just going to move right along. It's who I am. We're going to sail right through that one. Remember when you took me to high school musical on ice? I do remember that. So you did that. You just did that to me.

I did. So I think the only other thing we wanted to mention was that we are still working on, you know, next year for 2021, getting all the shows rescheduled. Some people are probably going to be getting refunds because, like, dates can't be set yet. But again, we're going to update you as soon as we know these things. I just want to keep you abreast of the situation. We want you to know all the updates. So that's the latest update we have is that there's really not a lot of updates. Update is no update.

We're also. We're working on it, though. We're working on it. And we're also planning some more virtual live events to keep you satiated in the meantime. Yeah, we're going to try to get some for the, you know, all our international lovelies that, you know, it was not a crazy time the last one for you. We'll try to work one for you guys. You know, maybe it won't just be us next time. Maybe.

Maybe we'll invite a friend. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Hi. I don't know. Hello? Who knows?

I like when we talk to them. Like, we're in the car together. I love it. Hi, guys. Hey, girl. Hey, guy. But I think that's really all we had to touch upon. Yeah.

So let's do this thing. All right. So before I even start my case, I have to say that so many people just like randomly one week were tweeting at me that I needed to watch Bailey Sarian's videos. And I was like, who's Bailey Sarian's. And then I sat on my couch. It was a Sunday. I sat there for a solid eight hours and just watched 90 million Bailey Sarian videos. And I was like, this girl is my soul sister. I love her. Yes. And her videos are so good. It's amazing. I love her.

She's so talented. So if you don't know who that is, she's a YouTuber and she does makeup and murder mystery Mondays. Yep. And then she also uploads on Saturdays. But the makeup and murder mystery Mondays are so fun. So good. So I was watching a ton of them. And one that, like, really interested me and I wanted to find more and more was the one that she did about the Jenny Jones show. Yes. So it's the Jenny Jones secret crush murder. I used to watch the Jenny Jones show. Okay. So cool, because in my bolded notes right here, it says, does Elena remember? I really do, because it was one of those things that, like, Ma wouldn't let me watch. So I would like sneak it. I believe it. Don't say too much because I have questions. So let me start. I'm letting you start. I'm over here.

All right. So the Jenny Jones show premiered in 1993. Sure did. I wasn't born yet. I love to do that to you guys. You're welcome. The youths. Right. So Jenny Jones herself, I don't know, maybe you didn't know all this. She was like a Jill of all traits. She was a comedian, a singer. And before she got her talk show, she made like random appearances like here, there, and everywhere. I didn't know that. You didn't. Well, I'm going to tell you some more about her. Tell me about it. Do you know Wayne Newton? I do. I figured. You don't? You don't? No, I do. I was just making sure everybody's on the same page here. All right, cool. Wayne Newton was the one that actually discovered Jenny while she was, she was like with her band touring in Las Vegas. Yeah. And he was like, yo, that girl's so talented. Let me put her on.

Wow. I didn't know that. So she got a little bigger after that. And along the way, she kind of started to realize that comedy was more her thing. Like she'd be singing and then in between songs, she'd be like, but dom-ch, a joke. You know, she's also like a really good drummer. She did Star Search in 1986, and she ended up winning the comedy prize. Huh.

That included getting a $100,000 check. Look at her. So she started to be like rolling in it. Yeah. So she wins all that money and she keeps singing, she keeps touring. And she starts getting a lot more attention and, like, magazines and stuff from media all over the place. Yeah.

And that's when she got approached by Warner Brothers to do the Jenny Jones show. Huh. I wondered how that happened. I always wonder how people get the... things. I do too because it's like, who are you? Yeah. Also, her real name is not Jenny Jones. Oh, that's upsetting because I was going to say with a name like Jenny Jones, I forget what it is. You got to do something like that. I just looked it up. Good. Her real name is Janina Stronsky. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot. Well, she's, um, she's actually kind of a cool name.

It is. She's Canadian American and I think she was born in Israel. Wow. So I think, I mean, it's it's definitely not as like easy to, like, Jenny Jones is like, it rolls off the tongue. It's easy to remember. It's like it's Jenny Jones. It's like, you know, everybody knows a Jenny. Everyone knows a Jones. And like the Jenny Jones show just sounds like such a talk show of that era. You can't have like a unique name and have a talk show like that. No, exactly.

Like Janina Stronsky wouldn't have worked. No, because people wouldn't remember it, I think, because it would be hard to remember. Yeah, I got that. So Jenny Jones was like, hell yeah, let's get it. Let's do the Jenny Jones show. I'm stoked. So now I want you to kind of talk about like what was all on the Jenny Jones show. If I remember correctly, because I watched it when I was younger, I think it was like akin to

like a Ricky Lake show or like a almost like, because Mori didn't start out with like the art you are the father. Well, neither did Jenny. He started out with like more like Oprah-esque stuff. Yeah. It was kind of like I don't know if anybody has watched now because I haven't watched it, but I've seen it like in passing the Tamron Hall show where she has people on and they talk about like. Oh, I've watched that like a couple times. Like lots of drama and lots of like. Right. Yeah. But the Jenny Jones show kind of started off just like you said, how Mori didn't start off with... Exactly. That's actually exactly what I wrote. Didn't start off with the paternity test and stuff like that. She kind of started off wanting to be like Oprah. Yeah. And like really talking about issues and like... Right. Like she almost like like a Dr. Phil Oprah-esque show. Getting into very dramatic things with people. Right. Like and kind of like helping, I guess. But that doesn't make for good ratings all the time. No. And then all these other shows like you said, the Mori show. and Jerry Springer.

They get that grab. Ricky Lake. I think, I think, um, never mind. I forgot what I was going to say. I'm like, I just like closed my eyes. I wish she would all see that. She just put her hands, her like fingers over her eyes and was just like, no, never mind.

Never mind. Because you know when you're going to say something and then you're like, what the fuck was I just about to say? And it just goes, whoop. Bye. Yeah. So back to Jenny Jones. She was like, you know what?

I'm not getting these ratings. Warner Brothers was probably like, we got to keep up your show. So let's go. So then she started doing things like, um, Like Bailey Sarian was saying, like, her favorites were the teenage makeovers. Like, my got daughter, I don't want her to look like this. Okay, that's exactly what I'm remembering. Yeah.

And like you said, the paternity test. And then they got this episode idea that was called Secret Crush. Oh, yes. Oh, I, okay. Do you know what? Yeah. I remember this now. I didn't know.

I couldn't find if like there had ever been one before this happened. So it was a thing. Secret Crush. Yeah. Okay. Because the specific episode that we're going to talk about was filmed, but never aired. Yeah. Dumb. I can understand why. So basically, like, the idea was that if you had a secret crush on somebody, you would write into the show kind of explaining your crush and like what you liked about them, who they were, who you were and you would get on the show. And then you would be like sitting there on the stage and kind of explaining this about them. And then they would be brought out on stage and it would be revealed right there. And I think a lot of people remember that as ambush television. Yes.

Because you are kind of ambushing somebody. Definitely ambushing. Right. And like the person would have no idea until they were right there on stage and the cameras were rolling. And they would have to react appropriately. That is a little bit of an ambush. It's the definition of an ambush. Yeah.

So there was this man, Scott Amateur, and he was a viewer and like a fan of the Jenny Jones show. And he also had a secret crush. Yes, girl. Oh, I nailed it. A secret crush. But you know how I'm a little. I do these. Before we get into that, we got to go back a little bit. We certainly do. You got to start at the beginning. Let's find out. Which is where I never start. Before we get in that, I think it's important

to talk a little bit about who Scott was. So Scott was born in Pittsburgh in 1963. His parents were Frank and Patricia. Frank and Patty. Frank and Patty. They had five kids together, which like, golly. Good for you, man. So Scott had three brothers and a sister. I'm not totally sure. where he was in the lineup. I like tried to figure it out. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to find that stuff. Well, especially with cases like this, it's like they only tell you the story of what happened and finding background is so difficult. It is. Yeah. Like even what I'm talking about here, I had to dig real hard to be like, who are you? Like I got in the dirt other than just this. So yeah, the five seven or five kids, he has three brothers and a sister. Crazy. Other than that,

his childhood was pretty normal. His parents did get divorced when he was five. And, he and his siblings primarily lived with their dad. Oh, okay. So when he was 17, he decides he wants to drop out of high school and he wants to enlist in the army, which at that time was like not something that was so crazy. Yeah, a lot of people were doing that. So he does just that. And he really enjoyed what he did and he was super, super good at it.

His specific specialty was satellite communications. And not only did he do all that, but while he was enlisted, he also got his GED. Wow, look at him go. He was like doing the damn thing. Doing it. So he ended up being in the army for about three years and he was honorably discharged. I think he had like broken his leg at one point. So I think that had something to do with it. Okay. He wasn't, but it was probably like disability kind of. Yeah. So when he was done in the army, he was kind of just working like regular nine to five jobs, kind of like the stuff that he was doing in the army, like the satellite work and everything. Yeah. But then he kind of realized that he preferred working at night. He was like, you know, nightlife is

kind of my thing. Like, I like to talk to people. I love the nightlife baby. The nightlife is for me. I was going to say, like, the nightlife didn't choose me. I chose the night life. The other way around. Anyways, so he was like, I'm going to become a bartender. Oh, hey, that's a perfect nightlife job. Perfect nightlife job. And he really loved, like I said, talking to people. And according to his friends and family, he was a super good time, like really friendly guy. So there you go. Bartender is perfect for you. He was also somebody who would help anybody if they needed it. Scott himself identified as gay and a lot of his friends had been diagnosed with the AIDS virus and if they didn't have anywhere to go, he would take them in like no questions asked and just

take care of them. I love that. What a human. That's like a little bit about Scott. Yeah. Even from that little blip, it's like, wow. Scott, you're pure AF. Yeah, you really are.

So now back to the Jenny Jones show, which is a little not pure AF. No. Not at all. Like I said, he was a fan of Jenny Jones. he liked to watch it and he was like, we all did. I mean, what the fuck else are you going to do? Like, it's daytime television. Absolutely.

And he was at home during the day. Yeah. So, there is at its peak, peak daytime television. Right. Yeah. So a little bit before he, he ends up writing into the Jenny Jones show about his secret crush. Okay.

But a little bit before he did that, he was heading to his brother's apartment to, like, hang out or something for the day. And his friend Donna Riley also lived in the same complex. Okay. So he, like, walks in there that day. And he's like, oh, look, it's. Donna, and he runs into her, and she's, like, standing outside of her car, and she had a friend working on her car. And he's like, oh, who's this fella working on your car? Who's, it was this tall

drink of water? Exactly. Someone called John that once, and I never forget it. Remember when he thought that was an insult? He thought it was an insult. John thought, being called a tall drink of water was an insult. I was like, why is that insulting? Why would that be insulted? I don't know. Also, why would anybody say that at? I was like, no, it means you handsome. Like, look at this tall drink of water. And then you were like, Who said it to you? Hydrating me. Hydrating me.

It was an older gentleman. It was pretty wonderful. I loved it. Wow, that's whimsy. Yeah, I was like, I agree. I was like, that's true. That's whimsy right there. So Donna's outside.

She's got this tall drink of water working on her car. And Scott thought this guy was super cute, super good for him. Good looking. And he was like immediately interested. Awesome. So who's this guy? Yeah, who is he? Jonathan Schmitz.

Jonathan Schmitz. It's a really fun last name to say. There it is. He was like 20. 26 at the time, and Scott didn't know if he was gay or not. Yeah. So Donna was pretty sure he wasn't, but she was like, I do remember Jonathan mentioning his family had questioned him on whether or not he was gay at one point. So she was like, I'm not sure. Like he could be. Maybe he's by. Like he hasn't come out to me. Right. So he and like the reason his family had been asking him about it is

because he had like multiple girlfriends. And actually I think, I think it was Bailey Sarian who said it or I read it somewhere that he was engaged at one point to a woman and it didn't work out. Okay. So after meeting Jonathan and becoming like super interested, he just, he really like thought this guy was so cute and I'll get to that at some point, but it like makes me sad. Oh, that hurts my heart. I know. So he sees that Jenny Jones secret crush thing and he's like, oh my God, that's perfect.

So honestly to me, it seems Scott kind of just thought this was going to be like a super like cute and lighthearted way to, like fun thing. To shoot his shot. Yeah. And it's like, I feel like that's something I would do. Like if I didn't, if I wasn't dating Annie and like I was interested in her, I'd be like, oh my God, like secret crush. Like I fucking love TV.

Let's make it a big deal. Like wouldn't I want to be on TV? Like, like let's make it like a limelight situation. Right. And I think Scott was kind of, I feel like I kind of like, like resonate with him a little bit. Like I'm like, I get you. I get where you're coming from.

Yeah. Like he was ready for it. And even his brother said, he was like, I think he just wanted to be on TV. Like thought the whole thing would be. fun. And again, it's just a fun way to shoot your shot. Right. So I don't think he thought anything bad would come of it other than like maybe Jonathan not having mutual feelings. And then maybe they could just be like, well, you know, I tried. And it seems like Scott was the kind of guy who would just be like, oh, well, I gave it a shot. Exactly. Like, we tried. So the show was set to tape on May 6th,

1995. Scott and Donna, Donna actually went with him. Donna, they flew to Chicago where the show was taped. they flew together and Donna was like kind of his wing woman for the trip which I love Donna I love that Donna Riley like you're the cutest and Jonathan obviously didn't know that they were going so he's going separately because he has no idea that like it's it's Scott that's interested in him oh man so they all fly out to Chicago separately except for you get it they fly out there you got it you know who's with who they're all using air travel appropriately to get there which also I think a flight they lived in Michigan and the show was in Chicago I'm pretty sure that flight is like half an hour.

Yeah, I was going to say that doesn't seem like a Boston to New York flight. But so all the producers apparently had told Jonathan before he flew out that the premise of the show was that someone had a crush on him and it would be revealed on the show. On the show. I don't really know what happens. Sorry, I stopped recording to give Ash a moment to collect her vocal cords off the floor. Are you good, sis? Do you smoke a pack a day? But yeah, I don't.

She's okay. On the show. Not on the show. The show. Okay. Get it together. That's like the really metal version of the show. On the show.

Okay. Okay. All right. Back. So they were like, yep, somebody has a crush on you. It's going to be real it on the show. And I think, like I said before, Jonathan was engaged before. So I think it was Bailey Sarian who said it.

And I wish I remembered. But either way, he thought that it was going to be his fiancé. Oh. So he was like, okay. I'll go on the show and she'll be there and yada yada yada okay that makes sense so it's the day of filming jennie jones opens up and scott and donna are sitting there on the stage and jenny jones is explaining who scott is to the audience and like what his secret crushes so she's like scott explain what jonathan looks like and tell us why you're so interested you know like what's up

like why you're here so basically scott is just like i think this dude is super cute. He got a little like intense with it. Like I forget, I don't have a direct quote of what he said, but he basically was just like, I think he's really hot. Yeah. And then she was like, I know you also have this kind of like fantasy about him. Like can you tell us what that is? And Scott was like, yeah, bitch. So he didn't say that. But he was like, basically it was along the lines of like, I have a hammock in my yard and like I would get some champagne and some strawberries and whipped cream. And like maybe it involved like tying somebody up. Oh, at first I was like, that's a so pure and let it just go like the hammock I was like adorable so cute I mean it's all still

I was going to say that's still great especially with I mean with a willing consenting a partner there it is adorable great date night like get it he had a fucking plan honestly good job Scott good job Scott he was ready and willing so yeah that's what the fantasy involved and obviously there's a sexual connotation behind that and I think like Scott was kind of joking at the time like well he was probably just like playing it up like you're gonna be like we've all done that with a crush like we're all just like oh my god the things I would do this is what I would do if they were interested right you know like you're gonna be crazy you're playing it up too because you're on TV so on the Jenny Jones show you gotta bring the sauce yeah you can't just go on there and be

like I think they're a very nice person I think I would like to take him to dinner and pay for the check I think they're attractive right like Jenny Jones would be like you need to give me something she's like so do you want a fook or not like let's get it let's talk about the real shit. So while all this is happening, Jonathan is backstage and he has headphones in, so he just not going to hear anything. They don't want to spoil the secret of who the crush is, even though he thinks he knows. Jenny then is like, well, let's bring Jonathan out. So Jonathan walks out and he's like grinning and he's like, you can tell he's a little surprised, but he doesn't look like shooketh. Like angry or anything. And I think when he walked out at first,

he thought it might have been Donna, who had the secret rush on him because he gives her a hug and they all know each other. Yeah. So he gives her a hug and a kiss on the cheek. And then as he's about to kind of go give Scott a hug or sit down, Jenny Jones is like, so did you know it was Scott with the crush on you? Like, it's Scott. It's not Donna. And he's like, oh. And you can tell he gets like slightly uncomfortable and they get, they still give each other a hug, but it is a little bit of a weird hug. You can see a shift in like the atmosphere a little bit. The slightest shift. It's nothing like almost like indiscernible. Right. If we weren't talking about this case, it would have just been like, wow, that guy handled that so well. Even though like, fuck off. It's nothing to handle. Exactly. But like he, he wasn't, he didn't make it weird.

Right. He didn't make it weird. He's like sort of nervously laughing, but looks normal otherwise. And then Jenny Jones is like, oh, excuse me, before I say what she said, when he sits down, he looks at, because he's sitting right next to Scott. Scott is in the middle, then Jonathan, and then on the other side, Donna. Okay. And when he sits down, he looks at them and he goes, you guys lied to me. And he says it. laughing, but he says it laughing. So I couldn't find like what exactly that meant. Now, I feel like you have like, what do you think? I'm just think I just, whenever somebody says something like that, like you lied to me is never like, I think that's really funny. That's him being like, oh, you lied to me. You lied to me and I'm real pissed about it, but we're on TV right now. So I'm going to say, you lied to me. Yeah. And it's like one of those like, I'm going to fuck you up. But like,

I'm going to pretend it's fine right now. To me, that's how I would immediately take that. I get that. I also came up with this idea in my head just to kind of explain the whole thing. I was like, because remember, he lived in the same apartment complex as Donna and Scott's brother lived there too. Oh, yeah. So part of me kind of wonders if they like ran into each other with luggage.

And he was like, oh, where are you going? And they sent something else. I forgot that they lived in the same apartment complex. So that makes sense. But also your thing makes sense, too. It all kind of makes sense. I think maybe it was a combination of both, to be honest. Because he could have been like, oh, you lied to me about where you were going, like,

that this was all going to be happening. Like, you lied to me. Like, about that. And I'm annoyed. Yeah, like, I'm real annoyed right now. So it gets better. But then you wonder, too, maybe they let, or Donna maybe or someone let him believe that it was his fiance or like pushed to that narrative slightly.

Maybe. Or like didn't dispel it if he brought it up. That's a good idea. And maybe he was excited about that. He's disappointed. Yeah. There's a lot of possibilities. There is.

We don't really know. Unfortunately. Yeah. So he sits down and he says that. And then Jenny kind of is obviously, it's her fucking daytime television talk show where she's trying to get the ratings. Right. Exactly. And she's like, oh, well, like, let's play back the tape so that Jonathan can hear about the fucking sexual fantasy that Scott has about him.

And Scott's like, okay. He seems fine with it. And Jonathan is, I hate to say. good sport about it because it's like there's nothing wrong with being gay obviously at all but but honestly male or female if like if it's like gay straight by whatever it is i feel like this it's a weird situation is a weird situation regardless right so i think him just not you know being a good sport means just like him being a good sport about being told on national television about something like this i just wanted to say what i meant so that it's clear yeah so he's got to make it clear yeah so he's a good

sport about it. He like sits through the fantasy and then Jenny's like, so why? Because that would be uncomfortable for anybody. Well, yeah. And it's, I mean, slightly embarrassing. And I'm going to get to that a little bit later. Whatever. He's like, oh, like, that's flattering. And she's like, so are you single? And he's like, I am. And he says right on the show, he's like, I am single. I'm available, but I am 100% heterosexual. Okay. Like, I am not gay. And it kind of seems like, you can't watch the entire thing.

So I've just seen bits and pieces and that's what you see. And I don't know how it ends or anything like that. But I do know. It is frustrating. But I do know that they all hung out together afterwards. So it's not like it was this big bomb drop of like, no. I mean, I'm sure it was a bomb drop slightly. But it seemed like he kind of got over it.

And then they all went to dinner together and had drinks. and flew back home together. Because it's also like, sure, this is a little on a different level because he brought him on TV to do it. Right. But it's like, we've all, I think a lot of people have had this kind of situation where like either you think someone's, you have a crush on someone, you tell them or you have someone else tell them, they're like, I don't feel the same way.

Right. You either, that's it and you just kind of fade apart. Right. You're just like, whatever. One of my best friends, Jeff, I love this story. Don't you? I'm like, I had a crush on Jeff and Jeff was like, yeah, like, I don't like you. So, and not like that. He was just like, I don't like you romantically. Yeah. And it didn't work out, but we're still friends.

Exactly. And I was just like, my face just turned red. Did you see that? Yeah. But we like hang out from time to time and we're like, I'll remember when I like professed that I liked you. And he was like, and yeah. But you can be cool about it. You can get totally move past it. And it just becomes a funny part of your relationship history. I can feel how red my face is. I feel like, it's a big deal for everybody. I'm picturing all these people listening to this. My unrequited feelings. No, I'm totally kidding.

But it's true. It's like, you can really, you can move past it and be totally fine. Exactly. So it makes sense that they were like, oh, whatever, that's weird. That was a crazy story that we can tell later for a little while. And it's like, why didn't just, why didn't you just keep going with that? Right. So it didn't take long for them to not keep going with that.

Three days after the show taped, Jonathan was returned. home and he was either returning home or leaving and he found a note tape to his door. And it said something, it was alongside some kind of like construction light or equipment. And it said something along the lines of, quote, you have the right tools to turn this on, which I think is fucking hilarious. If I got that note, I'd be like, that's great. Like what? But he knew that it was from Scott. And he was like, I'm not gay. Like, I'm not interested. and he, I don't want to say he snapped because I, like, get it together. Get it together.

But he, in a way, snapped. And he decided. Well, something snapped in him. Right. Yeah. He decided right that in there that he was going to kill Scott. Dude, it's, that is like big fucking jump, dude. Come on.

Like, just go to, like, just be like, you know what? I'm not interested. Please stop. Yeah. And if he doesn't stop, like, go from there. But it's not okay to kill anybody for any fucking reason ever. You have to sit down with him and be like, Like lay out your boundaries.

We can either be friends, but if you can't handle that, then we need to not hang out and not talk. You need communication here. This is called being a mature adult with Elena and Ash. Exactly. So that's not at all what happened. Give it a try, man. I think the big problem here was that Jonathan was pissed off that Scott put him on the show. Yeah, for sure.

He was going to be potentially, even though he said on the show, like, I'm 100% heterosexual, I think he was very nervous about what people were going. to think of him. Yeah. And especially his family, which I'm going to get into later. Oh, I'm sure. So, like I said, he makes the decision right there. He's fucking enraged.

And he drives right to the bank to take out money, then drives to the store to get a gun. And I'm pretty sure he drove to a separate store to get ammunition. Oh. And then he immediately drives to Scott's home. He sits outside of Scott's place for a while, which like right then and there, that's fucking premeditation. You could have stopped. This whole trip along the way there, you could have stopped at some point.

Oh, he made several stops to plan this whole thing. Exactly. So, hello, planned. Hello. He knocks on the door and confronts Scott. And I'm pretty sure, based on a few of the articles that I read, the first time he went to the door, he did not have the gun. Oh, okay.

And then the conversation got heated and he goes back to the car. And he grabs the gun, obviously. he opens the screen door with the tip of, and it was a 12-gauge buck-eye shotgun. Yeah. Oh, that is like... 12-gauge buck-eye shotgun. That's intending to do a lot of damage. A lot of damage.

Scott yelled to his roommate, Gary, that Jonathan had a gun, like, basically, like, help me. And it was already too late because Jonathan pulled the trigger twice and fired two shots directly into Scott's chest at, like, super- close range. Oh my God. So close range that paper wading from one of the shells was found in Scott's heart and then a fragment from the other shell was found in his left lung. Wow. So like insanely close. Wow. There was also evidence that Scott had held up a chair to try and defend himself. Oh. That's going to come back later. Oh, that makes me so sad. So Jonathan immediately fled the scene, flood the scene and started driving toward his sister's house. She lived like close by, I guess. And he stopped at a gas station to use the pay phone and called 911 and turned himself in. Wow. Yeah. And he told the

operator, he's like, obviously I just shot a man. And the operator was like, why did you do that? Like, why, sir? I think she was just shocked. And he said to the operator, this, the guy that I shot played a really awful trick on me. Oh, so he, so that did a lot. The actual trick of like getting him on the show seems to be a big trigger. It was in his psyche. That's a big trigger. Right.

So Scott's roommate, Gary, had also called the police and an ambulance came as well, but it was already too late. Scott was pronounced dead. And they found the chair he tried to defend, he tried to use to defend himself, knocked over, not far from where he was lying. So. This just didn't need to happen. No.

Like so, I know all murder are senseless, you know, like, but like. This is especially a so senseless. Really tough case. Like communication. Yeah. Break down from the jump. Mm-hmm. And it's just like, it goes to show how like, how differently people think to one person,

it might just be super lighthearted, a good fun. Like, everybody has a different definition of lighthearted fun. And that's like, Pranks especially. Pranks go wrong. Some people think it's fun. Some people, and some people have it from like childhood where they got teased or something and it's a huge trigger for them.

I think you and like our family is big on teasing and sometimes it can go too far. Yeah. I think you and I especially, we don't like to be teased. All of a sudden you can see like on both of our, I know when Ash has hit her threshold like it's not funny anymore. And same with you. And it just shoots right over your feet. And it enrages you.

Right. You're suddenly like, all right, fuck off everybody. Like shut up. Obviously, neither of us has ever gotten violent with our family. But it does kind of like flick this switch in your head where you're like, you want to like slam your fist on a table or like. And that's why those shows like the Jenny Jones show and all these shows that like ambush television people, that's so dangerous. And I'm not saying it's their fault. Right.

You know, like directly or anything. But like I think that these kind of shows should have a lot more like psychologists being involved in this and being like this isn't a good idea. This isn't something that's going to end well 100% of the time. And that's a big part of this case is that. And we're going to get into that. Yeah, because the psychology is just overlooked here. It is. Everyone does not find being ambushed or surprised fun.

Right. That's not everybody's idea of like, yippee, I'm surprised at all. And honestly, I wouldn't want to, and I know I said earlier, like, I would think that was fun, but I wouldn't want to actually be on the receiving end if I didn't have those feelings. Exactly. Because it's like either way, you kind of look like an asshole. to some people if you don't have those feelings. And it's forcing a feeling out of you.

Think of like catfish. That's completely different because like that person has been catfishing somebody. Yeah. But think of how embarrassed those people are and like the things, the levels that they go to. Exactly. And it's like how embarrassed they can be. So. Yeah.

It's all it's just you got to, I think those shows, I mean, it was a time when we weren't probably thinking too hard into the actual, you know, things that we're going to be coming out of this. Yeah. So I think it's just now. We think a little more about those things. The 90s. The 90s, am I right?

So Jonathan was taken into custody, and he admitted everything to the police, even telling them that once he found the note right then and there, that's when he decided to kill Scott. Wow. So he told them everything. That's like rare. It is rare. It's strange. This is a very interesting case.

Yeah, it's very strange. He went to trial in 1996 and obviously was up for first-degree murder. The defense had a few tricks up their sleeve, though. So they use the good old gay panic defense. The stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. It's an absolute joke. I don't understand how it's still a thing because it still is in most states, honestly. In fact, we laid out in the, if you listen to Matthew Shepard.

I think it was part two that we talked about where it's still a thing. I think I laid out each state where it's pending. I was going to say it's being worked on to be thrown out. If you listen to that episode, you'll hear how many states still have it, how many don't, how many are pending to get it off the books. And this was right around the same time, like I said, in 1996. Yeah, because Massachusetts is in the process of getting it off of the books. Right. So they use the gay panic defense. They also argued that Jonathan was mentally ill, and he suffered for manic depression and Graves disease. Oh, okay. So I didn't know what

Graves disease was actually. That's interesting. So I looked it up. You looked it up. And according to the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, Graves disease is, quote, an autoimmune disorder that causes hyperthyroidism or overactive thyroid. Your immune system attacks the thyroid and causes it to make more thyroid hormone than your body needs. The thyroid is a small butterfly-shaped gland in the front of your neck. So yeah, sure is. And you can also make your eyes bulge. That's a sign of Graves disease.

I didn't know that. So the defense argued that some of the side effects of Graves disease, and this is true, are irritability and irrational, sometimes violent behavior, which is true. Yeah. Essentially what they were saying was that their client was homophobic. Yes. So he freaked out, aka panicked, when Scott admitted the crush on this ambush TV show, and the note was what pushed him over the edge and the Graves disease helped along the way

because it helped him to... It just helped fuel the already dangerous thoughts that he was having naturally. So I hate to even use this, but the perfect storm. Yeah, exactly. Because by no means, is anyone saying grave disease, it makes you dangerous. No, and actually, I'm going to talk about that later too. Okay, good. The prosecution argued that Jonathan could have stopped at any point along the way to Scott's

house. He definitely could have. He could have stopped before he went to the bank while he was on the way to get the gun, the ammunition while he was sitting outside. He was pretty much sitting outside, I'm sure, contemplating what he was. was going to do. Yeah. So like I said, that right then and there is premeditation. A lot of times he could have stopped. So there were some issues in the case. There were two confessions made by Jonathan. Like I said, he told them everything. There was a videotaped one and a regular oral one,

but the judge would not allow them to be used in the trial because one was made before Jonathan was read his Miranda rights. Oh, I knew they were going to say that. They didn't Mirandaazum. Nope, which is, I'm like, isn't that it is the first thing you do? be, but oftentimes it's not. Have you seen cops? Hello? God. And then the other one was made before he had been given a right to counsel. So it's like, so part of the Miranda rights. Exactly. So it all had to do with Miranda rights. Yeah. Then there was the issue of the overturned chair because you kind of had to go one way versus the other. The prosecution tried to say that the chair had been used in a completely different matter. I knew that's what you were going to say. Excuse me, manner. Um, to throw at Jonathan

and that's when things got heated. And really, how are you going to argue that? I mean, nobody knows except the two people that were standing there. And Gary was there, and I'm the roommate, but I don't know if he was able to testify or like what the deal was with that. I couldn't. I'm sorry, find too much about it. Yeah, sometimes you can't.

They really just can't. But, and basically they were saying that could have set him off and like that's when he went and got the gun. Yeah, I mean, anytime someone throws a chair at you, it's definitely a good idea to grab a shotgun and pump two shells into them. Yeah, it's definitely not. I believe, guys, that, yeah, that doesn't. Still not a good defense.

But I think they were saying, like, well, they both got violent. Yeah, of course. Lawyers have to make their case somehow. They do. They got to do their job. So multiple people testified at the trial. And some of them, this is interesting, some of them actually said that they thought that Scott and Jonathan had slept together.

Oh. So, I don't know. Jonathan's father testified. Now, Jonathan's father, I said that fast, testified and kind of gave essence to the home that Jonathan was brought up in when he was younger. Oh. His father was definitely homophobic. There's literally no other way to put it.

It makes sense that he would raise a homophobic sense. And if you think back to, I said Donna Riley had said that Jonathan told her his family had questioned if he was gay in the past. So clearly it was not an acceptable good thing to be gay in this family. Okay. And he also, at one point, he was being cross-examined. and while he was on the stand, he asked one of the lawyers in response to a question, well, how would you feel if someone thought you were gay?

And I don't even... Like, the lawyer's going to be like, you know what, sir? You're totally right. I'd be homicidal is what I would be. I would shoot someone. Like, you idiots? Are you kidding me? Okay.

Like, yeah. How would you feel if someone thought you were gay? Like, what? Like, I'd be like, well, you're, I'm not on the stand, so fuck off. No. And I'd be like, what kind of fucking question is that? Right. Like, giving credence to you should kill someone if they think.

think you're gay? Like what? Exactly. So that happened. So I think that kind of gave, like I said, a lot of insight to people about where Jonathan came from. For sure. And it kind of seemed like the jurors had a soft spot for him. And if you see him too, I think that's another thing. He was like this, young guy. He kind of looked like somebody that would be like on TV and one of those. He would be like the heart throb in the teenage show. Yeah. And like you could see why Scott. really dug him. Yeah, you could see why Scott dug him. And you could, I guess, see why these jurors felt bad, I guess. I don't... It's human nature is a weird thing. It is. It's like the Diane Downs thing. It is. Well, and they couldn't look at him and think of him as this evil monster. In fact,

one of them was like, I feel like he would be like my son or like my friend. Yeah. And I couldn't get that out of my head. And honestly, his counsel probably played that up in a big way. He was wearing like, graphic t-shirt, sweatshirt things. Yeah. So, and they also couldn't get over the fact that if it were not for the Jenny Jones show, this situation probably never would have happened. I mean, yeah. I think if I was on that jury, I would think the exact same thing. I honestly might too because it's like, I don't know if Scott would have got, you know,

if anything, he would have just told him how he felt and he wouldn't have felt, you know, that he had to answer in front of the world. Well, that's the thing. It wouldn't have been a national news thing. conversation between two people. And maybe his family and friends wouldn't have found out, and it would have been a quiet thing. And who knows if Jonathan felt the same way and just felt like he couldn't say it because it was in front of the world. And then he felt pissed that Scott did it in front of the whole world, so he couldn't answer him the way he wanted to. Again,

this is just speculating, totally. But it's all very valid speculation. So. And obviously does not, none of it equals like, definitely go kill someone for that. None of it condones his actions. We're just trying to, I think we always try to. understand. Understand the psyche. And it goes back to the show, the ambush way that they were doing and the jurors couldn't get that out of their head. So they convicted Jonathan of second degree murder because he did murder somebody at the end of the day. Yeah. So they convicted him of second degree murder. And the judge sentenced him to a minimum of 25 years to a max of 50 years. Wow. And the judge looked at him and told him he had three days to stop himself after the show and deal with what had

happened and then said, this sentence will rob you of your youth, not your life. Wow. Which it's like you robbed somebody of their life, but I'm not going to do the same thing to you. So Jonathan's lawyer urged him to sue the show after this or at least think about it and to use all his appeals. And he did end up appealing his sentence in 1998. His case was overturned and he was retried, but he got the same verdict to his same sentence. Because I was like if they reduced that, I was going to be pissed. Yeah, I was going to be pissed. too. The Amadere family was also not happy at the end of the day. Yeah. That's Scott's family. In fact, Scott's brother Frank basically put it like our family lost their son and brother and so did Jonathan's

family. And both of the families agreed this would not have happened if it weren't for the Jenny Jones show. Yeah. They both, it seemed like everybody was in agreement. And it's like, and it's not, Scott is not, shouldn't be the one to have to figure out that the psychology behind all this. It's like The show should have known and should have had people to determine this. Exactly. You know, it's not Scott being like, he shouldn't have brought him on there. And it's, I don't want to say it's not Jonathan's fault. But I think they were both put in a position where they didn't think about the outcomes.

Yeah. And I think other, I think people with more knowledge should have stopped this. Right. People who are, have a, have a platform and should be more responsible with their platform. Yeah, I agree with that. way to put that also gross noise that I made. It's a very weird. This is a very weird case. It is weird because it's like you also can't put all the blame on the Jenny Jones show. No, you can't. Some of it does need. He did. Jonathan made a choice. A decision.

To murder someone. Right. But I have no reason at all. Right. And I think it's very easy to kind of go back and forth with, I went back and forth with how I felt the entire time I was researching this. And I'm still back and forth about how I feel. Yeah. I think what really runs the vein that runs through all of this is homophobia. for sure. Homophobia, definitely. And it's either like internalized, like self-hatred, or it's just learned behavior that was taught to him. I think it was a little bit of both.

Yeah. So like I said, both families were not happy. They had both lost their child or brother or, you know. So in 1999, the Amateur family sued the Jenny Jones show in a wrongful death suit. Yeah. Jenny Jones herself, who she had previously. put out a statement saying she wanted she literally was like I just want to clear some things up which it's like oh maybe don't start oh honey no like nope somebody is dead don't do that um she claimed no

responsibility like she claimed that the show is not responsible at all okay jenny yeah fucking bullshit but okay jenny jenny ends up getting fucked over real hard cool jenny um she went on the show as well as the producers from the show and they admitted that they didn't know or ask about jonathan's mental health at the time of the show or before the show. Yeah, that's a problem. Right then and there is negligent. They also testified that they told him his secret crush could be a man or a woman, but they did agree that he was maybe led to believe that it was a woman. Oh, come on. Right. Come on, guys. So you didn't pull the trigger, but that's some culpability there. You didn't pull the trigger, but you you helped. Yeah, you pushed some things along here. So the attorney that was hired by the

amateur family is intense as fuck. It's Jerry Figer. Do you know him? Yeah, I've heard that name. He's so fucking intense. If this happened in our family, he would be the dude that I want to hire because he went balls to the wall. Good.

He had Jenny on the stand and he went to town on her. Good. In the cross-examination before when it was like the defense or when it was not the family, their lawyer, I'm so bad at that. Prosecution. Yes, thank you. The prosecution. she did really well on the stand, but once Jerry Fygar got her, she fucking crumbled.

Good. So he basically went after her and asked her questions about the advertising for her show. He argued that she wanted to be like Oprah in the beginning, but then when she realized that ambush television was where the money was at, that's what she got into. He also asked her about whether or not the guests were prepared for the show and like other questions about how the show worked when it came to guests and getting them on the show. Yeah. Basically asking, is there some kind of process where you make sure that they're mentally

capable? You vet them, like, properly? And she didn't have an answer. Because they didn't. Right. And he argued, how can you claim no responsibility when you don't even know what's going on behind the scenes of your own show? Yeah.

Like, it's ridiculous. And she actually had written a book where she talked about the murder and everything. in the book she claimed no responsibility. And it's like, you can't. So shady of her. You can't claim no responsibility when you have no idea. Your name is on this. I would want to know every fucking in and out of that show. If my name, like, I know every in and out of morbid. You know our names are on it. You need to know what's going on. Like, obviously very different situations, but especially on that level. Yeah, it's the same thing. Like when we, you know, the Facebook group is on its way out, because our name is attached to that.

Right. And we can't vet every single person that gets into that group and what their opinions are and what they're going to say. Exactly. And we don't want it attached to us. I don't want to be associated to that. So you remove your, you have to take care of that shit. That's your name. That's your name.

That's what you got. The decision was made by the jury at the end of the trial that the Jenny Jones show, Warner Brothers, who produced the show and telepictures productions were to pay the Amadier family, 25 to 29 million. dollars of damages. Wow. I read 25 in some places and 29 and others. The family never saw a dime of that money. That's fucked. Never saw a dime.

And the Jenny Jones show appealed multiple times. That is shady. In 2002, the Michigan state court threw out the original jury ruling of the money awarded to the Amateur family, stating that the show had no legal responsibility to protect a guest on the show after it aired. Yeah, and that's not even. And it's like, no. But you had it.

You had to protect them while they were there. And you didn't. Yeah, exactly. Jenny Jones said that she was, quote, elated by the decision. Oh, good. I'm glad. And then went on to say, Scott Amadere's murder was a horrible tragedy, but I have always believed that it was fundamentally wrong and unfair to blame the show. I am thrilled that the court of appeals agreed that the show could not possibly have predicted and prevented this brutal crime.

Okay. Sure, you can't predict it by any stretch. We're not calling you a witch. But by bringing people off the street who you know nothing about and failing to learn a damn thing about them or their mental health before bringing them on and doing something that would stress out somebody without any mental health issues, that's your fault. Exactly. And actually, I think I said I was going to get into that later when we were talking about how he felt and like how it would be awkward to have anybody profess their sexual feelings toward you in front of a lot of people. I'm not entirely sure exactly who it was, but one of the lawyers who was cross-examining somebody on trial was like, why don't I ask you about you and your wife, like a sexual fantasy, like between you and your wife? And the guy was like, no, I'm not fucking talking about that.

That's embarrassing. And he was like, point proven. Exactly. You don't want to talk about it. Exactly. So the Jenny Jones show was canceled in 2003, finally, when its ratings basically plummeted. Good. And as for Jonathan Schmitz, he was.

let out of prison on good behavior in 2017. He was 47 and he had served 22 years of his sentence. Wow. Yeah. Scott's brother Frank, who actually suffers from Graves disease himself and said it never made him violent. No, of course not. He said that he hoped Jonathan is actually sorry.

He hopes that he received psychiatric treatment while he was in jail and he hopes that he's not homophobic anymore. Wow. So, who, that's a tough, tough one. And I think if you want to watch, I watch this show on Netflix, it's called Trial by Media. This is the first episode. And Frank Amateur, the Scott's brother, talks a lot. He's like the primary one being interviewed. Yeah.

And he was literally right outside of Scott's home the day his body was taken away. Oh my God. And like he talks a lot about the experience of them growing up together. It's just senseless. Who he was and how he feels about Jonathan now. so. And it's just, and the thing that like sits at the heart of it is just homophobia. Homophobia. That's, that's really, that's really, really, really unfortunate that this is the end result of that. And it's just so sad that, I mean, it's sad that both families lost somebody.

Yeah. And it's like, and it's, and it's, and it really pisses me off that Jenny Jones could have come out and she could have been like, we need to do better. We need to, we need to, we need to fix this. And this was, we did not think this through. We were not, we, we were negligent. I would have been like, wow. And people would, because all people want, I mean, this is a very large mistake. Yeah. But when mistakes happen, you got to own up to it, man. Well, and turn it around and make something come out of it.

Try to fix it. Try to go, you know what? All right, this, this happened. And we're going to try. We might not succeed, but we're going to give it a shot. Right. Because it's my responsibility now to do that. And instead, she's like, she was like, I have nothing to do with that.

And it's like, you asshole. your name is all over that thing. And that's the other thing, it's negligent. And that's the whole thing they were trying to argue. And I hope, I mean, they did argue in the original sentencing that the show was negligent. That is negligence. Jenny Jones herself was negligent as fuck. She didn't know what was happening on her own show.

Yeah, you can't have people coming onto the show and being ambushed for anything. If you don't know, I mean, that could have triggered him the second he walked out on the stage if he was mentally unstable. Well, think about if... Lights could have triggered someone. Yeah. The applause can trigger. Like, you don't know anything about this person. Well, think about, like, even, like, the Mori show and the Jerry Springer show.

Like, people get into fist fights on those shows. Yeah, they go crazy. Like... And, I mean, I'm assuming now things are much different and you kind of have... I'm sure they have to sign waiver upon waiver. Yeah. They're, hopefully their psychology has looked into. And I'm sure some of it is, like, you know, I'm sure a lot of staged and all that.

But, like, back then it wasn't. It was not at all. It was all, like, let's just terrified. this person. Let's just get paid for it. And then they put Scott in a position where it was like, yeah, this is all fun. And everybody's going to think this is fun because you think it's fun. And it's like, so what was he to do? He thought this was just fun. When he was a fan of the show, he'd watched it in the past. I'm sure he was a fan of Jenny Jones. He probably saw that everything ended up fine with everybody else. Right. So, I mean,

Jonathan's a murderer, straight up. Black and white is what it is. He's a dangerous human being. Right. He's obviously mentally unstable. in some way. And well, Mike Frank's brother said, excuse me, Scott's brother Frank said, I hope he did get psychiatric treatment while he was in jail. Yeah. I mean, I hope he did too, especially because he's out. I mean, the whole point of jail is to rehabilitate. Exactly. So let's hope. And, um, because Scott was by no means at fault for any of this. No, he didn't do anything wrong at all. I really think all the response, I think it's like, I don't want to say 50-50 because it's not 50-50, but all the responsibility falls on the

Jenny Jones show and Jonathan. Jonathan. And I don't know in what percentages, but I feel like... Those meld together. I've been looking at this case for weeks, and that's my final conclusion. That's how I feel. So if you want to go watch that show, definitely watch that Netflix show. Yeah, that's interesting. There's like shit tons of articles about this.

You can watch the court TV, like, things online. Proceedings about it. And watch Bailey Sarian's videos because they're so good. They are. She's great. And thank you to everybody who told us to watch her. Yeah, because she's great. Yeah. Wow.

That was a crazy one. It was. That's nuts. And share your thoughts nicely and respectfully when we post this. And because some people might not agree and that's fine. Like what our thoughts are. Well, and that's like part of the fun of doing this is to hear. Be nice. Be respectful about it. Leave the snark at home. Opinions are not wrong. Have nice debates if you want. We're going to stay out of it. But we're going to let you guys talk about it. Have fun. Love you so much. Well, yeah, you can follow us on Instagram if you would like to share your respectful thought at Morbid Podcast.

If you would like to share a respectful tweet on Twitter, go ahead. A Morpid Podcast. And if you would like to send us a respectful Gmail, go ahead at Morbid Podcasts at gmail.com. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you tour with a rock band and you're like, oh, my God, I'm so good at drumming. And then somebody finds you and you're like, oh, my God, I'm so good at comedy. And then you become a comedian.

And then you're like, oh, my God, I'm going to have my own TV show. But I'm not going to look into any of the mental stability of the people that I'm going to have on the show. And I'm going to ambush the fuck out of them. And then it's going to turn out really badly. And I'm going to claim no responsibility. Don't keep it that weird, Jenny. Bye. Bye, Jen.