Morbid - The Hunt for John List (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

After killing his family in the winter of 1971, John List went on the run, initiating a worldwide manhunt that would last nearly twenty years before he was finally apprehended. In that time, the List case would become one of the largest and most notorious investigations since the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. References Associated Press. 1972. "John List is still missing and local police are baffled." Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), February 22: 9. —. 1972. "Highjack-slaying ties denied." Press of Atlantic City, January 15: 4. Bailey, Bruce. 1972. "Worldwide hunt fails to find Wrstfield exec." The Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ), June 11: 1. Balog, Kathy. 1990. "The confession to his pastor was the most damning of all." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 13: 1. Benford, Timothy, and James Johnson. 1991. Righteous Carnage: The List Murders in Westfield. New York, NY: Scribner. Bullock, Marilyn, and Bruce Bailey. 1971. "The Lists were a neighborhood mystery." The Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ), December 9: 11. Chung, Connie. 2002. 1971 family killer breaks silence. February 20. Accessed August 1, 2026. https://abcnews.com/2020/story?id=132646&page=1. Cohen, Robert. 1971. "'Daddy, you're all I have left...'." The Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ), December 12: 1. —. 1971. "Husband hunted in mass slaying." The Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ), December 9: 1. Douthat, Strat. 1989. "The fugitive." Los Angeles Times, June 18: 2. Fiedler, Lore. 1973. "John List disappearance still unsolved." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), December 3: 11. —. 1971. "Westfielder sought in slaying of 5." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), December 8: 1. Hampton, Pat. 1980. "After 9 years, John List still a suspect-and still a mystery." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), December 6: 5. Hann, Christopher. 1989. "For stunned neighbors, news of arrest hits home." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), June 2: 7. LA Times Wire Service. 1989. "Suspect in family-slaying may be famed D.B. Cooper." Los Angeles Times, June 30. McNeel, John M. 1976. "What ever happened to John List." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), October 15: 11. Romano, Mary. 1989. "For the family, a chapter closes, a wound reopens." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), June 2: 1. Stout, David. 2008. "John E. List, 82, killer of 5 family members." New York Times, March 25. Sullivan, Joseph. 1990. "Slaying suspect saw 2 choices, doctor testifies." New York Times, April 7: 30. —. 1990. "Suspect wrote about killing family in '71." New York Times, March 29. Talmont, Tek, and Jill Vejnoska. 1990. "Attorney admits client is John List." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), February 15: 1. The Courier-News. 1990. "Two specialists describe List." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 10: 1. The Courier-Times. 1976. "Psychic gleaned varied impressions of List." The Courier-Times (Bridgewater, NJ), October 15: 11. Thompson, Robert. 1972. "List case unsoved after seven months." The Courier-News (Bidgewater, NJ), June 28: 1. Vejnoska, Jill. 1990. "Defense: List killed with love in his heart." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 3: 1. —. 1990. "Doctor recounts List's getaway." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 11: 1. —. 1990. "Doctor: Stressed List just snapped." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 7: 1. —. 1989. "FBI nabs John List." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), June 2: 1. —. 1990. "Letter: List shot family, prayed." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), March 29: 1. —. 1990. "List 'didn't trust God' to help him." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 6: 1. —. 1990. "List guilty." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 13: 1. —. 1989. "Prime-time spotlight focuses on long-time fugitve John Lisr." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), May 22: 1. —. 1989. "Westfield cops hope TV can help catch John List." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), April 14: 1. Wirt, George. 1977. "5-Year hunt: Cops 'haven't forgotten' slaughter of famil." The Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ), May 30: 10. Yates, Terry, and Robert Thompson. 1971. "'Nobody knew them too well'." The Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ), December 8: 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. This is morbid. We're post book tour. We are. I'm exhausted. But it was so, so amazing.

It was so fun. It was, go, go, go. It was nonstop. And it was, but everybody we got to meet, like, you guys were awesome. Yeah, people were very nice. Thank you for coming out for the book. It was so cool. People gave, like, the nicest little giftings.

Yeah, and everybody was just, like, lovely. Love that. Like, it was like a genuinely, wildly, lovely experience. Like, every single person I met, I was like, oh, fuck. Yeah. You're awesome. And we finished it off at church. I'm glad I get it.

Finish it off at a church. I gave a sermon. Yeah. So, and people were lovely there, too. Yeah, it was great. And now I'm just recouping. Yeah. And your immune system is ass.

Yeah, it is. It just is. Subjecting yourself to meeting so many people is tough. Because you're just like, bleh. I immediately get sick, but honestly, so worth it. Yeah, very worth it. So, so very worth it. You guys were awesome.

And now you just have to wait for the list. Yes. Next week. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that sounds that sounds that's not bad. We shall see. Okay.

You guys did I say anything. Made a hell of a turnout. Yeah, that was. And I appreciate you. What did I think, didn't somebody say it was like a book tour on steroids? Yeah, that's what my litter agent said. Yeah. It was.

All right. I don't think there's a. business. I mean, buy the book, continue to buy it. Yeah, go get that book. It seems to be doing okay. So I feel good about it. It's always that scary thing of putting the book out being like, because you're like, did you like it? Yeah. But I'm excited. I'm excited for you guys to read it. It's a very, very wonderful book. Thank you. I quite enjoyed it. I quite enjoyed it. I liked it a lot. But I don't like a lot is that we have to talk about John List again today. We do, but I'm excited for this part.

Yeah, this is a, you know, spoiler alert, he gets caught. Yeah, that's the thing. I'm like, I'm ready to see this fucker go down. Yes. We're going to get there. But first, I kind of have to tell you a little bit about his early life and how he became John List. Tell me about this idiot. Okay.

I will. He was born September 17th in Bay City, Michigan to John Frederick, known as J.F. An Alma list. They were cousins. Oh. His parents were cousins. Oh, okay. The 20-year age difference between them.

Oh, okay. We got so much working for us here. Already so much. Yeah, we're way ahead. You can't marry your cousin. Nope, can't do that. Alma was a devout Lutheran, and she was described as humorless in nearly every aspect of her life. So John List.

Yes, yeah, I was just going to say two treats that she very much passed on to her son. Apple right from the tree. She also was an extremely, I guess you could say, devoted mother, but it bordered on obsessiveness. Uh-oh. And it became a little too much. I mean, you marry your cousin. Yeah. Family's going to get a little weird from then on out.

It's pretty true. Yeah. Not only did she doad on John day and night, but she also, quote, dressed him herself well beyond the age when other mothers might have urged independence. And she couldn't stand to have him out of her sight for very long. Okay. A little weird. Yeah, like the dressing thing.

The dressing thing. Out of your sight. Yeah. I can't say shit about that. I can't say shit about that. But the dressing is what I'm referring to. Yeah. Children need to learn how to get dressed. Absolutely. They do. Absolutely. Clearly. So John's relationship with his father, though, was more complicated.

As a strict businessman who worked long hours, J.F. had very little time for his family. After working all day and into the night, he usually just came home for a late dinner. He'd flipped through the newspaper and then read a few passages of the Bible with his family and then would just send his kid to bed. Oh, that sounds fun. They didn't really get a lot of quality time. No.

The overbearing nature of his mom and remote nature of his dad inevitably led John to develop a softer personality and kind of like a quiet, shy demeanor. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, the thing that sucked about that, though, was that the other kids in the neighborhood would call him a mama's boy and a sissy because he was like close with his mom. Which I hate that because I'm like, that's not his fault. It's also not a bad thing. And it's also just not his fault. Like, he didn't do that. Like, it's like that's done to him.

That's just his family's structure, you know. Yeah. Like, that's, you know. The parent causing that. Makes you feel bad for... The kid gets the blowback from it. Makes you feel bad for like the little kid. Yeah, for sure.

Not the adult at all. No. Now, outside of his, I guess, somewhat unusual upbringing, detectives really didn't find a lot in his background that would have suggested he would go on to commit a crime, much less this crime. The crime. Like, become a family annihilator.

One neighbor said, I never recall him having a temper or we're getting angry. Huh. Which is pretty wild. Wow. When he graduated from high school in 1943, He enlisted in the Army and he was shipped off to Louisiana for basic training. And it was during this time in the service that he obtained the 9mm pistol, which he would later use to murder his entire family.

That's horrifying. Yeah. When World War II ended, John returned home and enrolled in summer courses at Bay City Junior College. And he earned credits that he would eventually transfer to an accounting program at the University of Michigan. He was an older student because he had put off enrollment since he was in the military. Yeah. So again, he was kind of an outsider, like with everybody at school. And they found him kind of like too serious, too stuffy. Like he wasn't really interested in what they were. Years later, when they were asked about John List, most of his fellow students really couldn't remember anything about him. Damn. Which like, I think he was just kind of doing his thing. Yeah, he was just kind of floating through. Not everybody goes to college to make friends. No. Now, when the Korean War broke out, John was again called up to serve and he spent almost two years. in mostly administrative roles

and then was transferred back to Fort Eustace in Virginia. And it was there that he met Helen Taylor and he was immediately smitten with her. For 10 years, Helen had actually been married to Lieutenant Marvin Taylor who died in Korea trying to save a platoon of 12 soldiers. Whoa. Yeah. Naturally, his death hit Helen pretty hard

and it also left her alone to parent their young daughter. So after six months of grieving, Helen started dating at her sister's insistence. Her sister was like, you have to move on. You can't be stuck in this forever. And it wasn't super easy to be a single mom back then. No, of course not. I was going to say.

But especially back then. So things hadn't really been going very well in the dating department until Helen met John. While most women found his soft, shy personality to be kind of off-putting, Helen kind of welcomed the change of pace because the men that she had met were a little more brash. She had met like these military men who she was being set up with that she just like wasn't hitting it off with. Then she met John and he was polite, he was mature. He was almost like pathologically reserved. Ah, that's a good way of describing that. Yeah. Putting it bluntly when she considered her options and her recent dating experiences, John kind of seemed like the safest and

the easiest choice. Yeah, I get it. You know, as her daughter Brenda put it, her mother just settled on John. Oof. Yeah. So they'd only been dating for a few months when Helen realized she was pregnant in 1951. Her sister said, I don't think he wanted to get married. One week it was yes, the next week it was no. In the end, his...

That's not good. Yeah, if you want somebody to be, like, so obsessed with you that they're like... Pretty enthusiastic about getting married. Yeah. But in the end, his religious upbringing kind of solved the question over what they should do. They decided that they should get married and raise the baby. It was the right thing. Okay.

So a few weeks before their wedding, though, Helen discovered that the pregnancy was a false alarm. She actually wasn't pregnant. And she told John, she was honest. But by that time, he had already committed to the wedding. So on December 1st, 1951, they were married in Baltimore, Maryland. And we were just there. Okay. Now, after the wedding and a brief honeymoon in Washington, D.C., John was reassigned to the Army's Finance Corps, where he finished out the second tour of duty, and then he was discharged in 1952. They kind of moved around a lot. In the years that followed, they moved to Michigan to be near Alma. Between 1955 and 1958, the three kids were born. First Patty, then John Jr., then Frederick. Brenda lived with her mother and John, but she said she usually felt like an outlier,

which is really sad. Because remember, she was Helen's daughter from the first marriage. A lot of times she said she was left with her grandmother, while her mother and stepfather just went on trips without her. Oh, my God. And that makes me wonder, I'm like, were they going on trips with, like, the new kids together and just leaving you at home? Or like... Or was it just them going on trips? Yeah, because, I mean, either way, it kind of stinks. But that would add insult to injury if it was with the new kids.

She said, I didn't mind staying with my grandmother. I loved her. But I felt a little rejected. I missed my mother terribly. I didn't understand why she left me behind. Oh, that's awful. It really is. I hate that. Yeah. Now, despite being a good accountant and a reliable employee, John did struggle in his professional life. He had very poor interpersonal skills, as we've come to realize. Yeah. And he was usually just like a fucking curmudgeon. Yeah, that's what he sounds like. He's just grumpy. He was always at odds with his coworkers. Yeah. And the fact that he was so rigid, really irritated his bosses. Because you have to learn how to work in an environment with other people. Yeah, you can't just be like an angry. robot. No. It's not going to work. Doesn't make for good, you know, company vibes. Now, in 1956, just months away from the birth of his son, John's employer called him into his office and said, it might be best if he sought employment elsewhere. Wow. It's like firing light. Yeah, I was going to say. He was like, what if this was your idea? What if? But also my idea. It could be great. And you leave. What do you think? And you leave. That's it. And John was like, okay.

Got it. So he managed to get a new job at a manufacturing company. But being that close to poverty instilled a deep fear of failure that would haunt him for the rest of his life. Because when he took this new job, it was a pay cut. Oh, okay. And now he has even more kids to support. So for the next four years, they, you know, the list seemed to be happy. They seem to be supportive, I think, from the outside. But behind closed doors, there were secrets and there were small resentments that were building. And they were very much starting to affect, not just the family. but John and Helen's marriage at its core. Helen had struggled with depression since her first husband died, obviously.

And unfortunately, she didn't seek any kind of help for that. There also wasn't a ton of help for that back then. I was going to say the time. They probably would have put her on speed. Probably. So she turned to drinking as a means of escaping. And on top of that, she had also been experiencing chronic physical pain as a result of poorly treated syphilis that she had contracted from her first husband.

Holy shit, but had never told John about. Oh, man. Yeah. That can fuck you up. Yeah, syphilis is no fucking joke. So the drinking, you know, maybe helped her cope with the physical pain, but it only made her depression worse. And by the end of the 50s, she was struggling to perform even the most basic responsibilities as a homemaker. And that left a lot of the housework to Brenda at that time.

Now when Brenda married and moved out in 1960, John sawd as an opportunity to shake things up. and he accepted a different position in Rochester, New York, and moved his entire family across the country. Since Helen was pretty much incapable of keeping up with the kids in the house, that's when Alma moved in with them. Yeah. And then five years later, John was offered a position in New Jersey. It was a considerable step up, and John wanted his lifestyle to reflect this promotion. So when it came time to look for a house in New Jersey, he settled on Westfield, which is where that lovely mansion was. Yeah.

Based on the paperwork and the financial statements that were provided to their realtor, the agent chose a number of houses to show them that was in the $20,000 to $30,000 range, which like, can we all just take a second? Holy shit. In like an upper, like upper middle class. Yeah. Like suburb of New Jersey. 20 to 30.

And it's like a massive mansion. Yeah. Well, so 20 to 30,000 was what they were showing them at first. Yeah. They figured that was roughly what the family could afford. The houses were adequate for a family of six people, but they weren't as much of a step-up at that range as John and Helen had in mind. So despite their financial limitations, they wanted a house befitting of a vice president

of a bank, regardless of whether or not they could afford it. When the agent, this agent's kind of like a rock star because the agent was like, I can't in good conscious help you buy a house you can't afford. Yeah, which like, thank goodness. Not supposed to do that. Yeah. So they kind of fired. Not even kind of, they fired that.

They kind of fired. I'm like firing light everywhere. So crazy. They did fire him. They moved on to a new realtor. And eventually they found Breeze Knoll, which was the mansion on Hillside Avenue. Now, by all accounts, it wasn't just the elegance and the glamour of the house that attracted the list to it.

For John, it was the way that the house seemed to revive something in Helen that he just hadn't seen in years. After a decade in the Midwest and a few years in industrial Rochester, both places where she'd never been quite comfortable, the house on Hillside Avenue reminded Helen of her childhood in North Carolina, and it seemed to bring back these really nice memories for her, which kind of reinvigorated her spirit. Now, the agent reminded them that the payments would be pretty considerable and very out of their price range. Yeah. But John dismissed the advice and made an offer on the house, which Loki said he said, him up for a disaster. Now, after digging through John's entire life, investigators, again, didn't find anything to indicate potential for deadly violence, but also they didn't find any clues as to where he might have gone after he left New Jersey. As far as they could tell,

he had no productive ties outside of his own family, and none of those people had seen or heard from him since the murders were committed. Like his, if he had a friend on the outside, they hadn't heard from him, and none of his extended family had. There also didn't appear to be any international connections that could have offered him safety in the months after he killed his family. An FBI spokesperson told a reporter in the early summer of 1972, it was as though the guy was just swallowed up. Oh, that's spooky.

To picture that? Yeah, I don't like that. It's like, pooh. Just swallowed up. Yeah. Now, since the bodies were discovered, the FBI and the local police had received, obviously, countless tips from all over the country. And they ran all of these tips down no matter how trivial.

but they still weren't any closer to finding him. By December 1973, four different law enforcement agencies had devoted countless hours to the investigation and the manhunt, and they were still no closer to locating him than they had been on day one. Chief Morin said, we've checked out hundreds of leads in the U.S. and other countries, but to no avail. People have thought they've seen lists in all kinds of places, a television store in California, resorts abroad, but nothing. But nothing. He was just swallowed up. The earth just said home. So most people called to report having seen a man who looked exactly like John List, or at least as he appeared in the photo on his wanted poster. But other people did call with more elaborate theories and ideas. Some people even allege that he could be D.B. Cooper.

Oh, yeah. I mean, there is a resemblance. There is. If you look at the two, yeah. I don't know why he would have gone from like family. annihilating to plane hijacking? You just never know. Yeah. You know, neither one of those are things that you can really conceive of. That's true. Why not do both?

And I guess they correlate them the fact that, like, he needed money. Yeah, exactly. That would have been pretty brave to be DB Cooper whilst on the run for murdering your whole family. Yeah. You know. I never know. Now, none of those tips proved to be useful. But Chief Boren and the other investigators on the case remained convinced that List was still alive and they very much believed him to be on the run.

And as long as there was reason to believe he was alive, they had every intention of hunting him down. Damn. Now, intentions aside, by the time the fifth anniversary of the murders rolled around in 1976, investigators still had not made any progress. They said, there's little that can be actively done in a homicide investigation five years after the fact. Yeah. Which is unfortunately somewhat true, especially back then. Yeah.

There wasn't a lot of scientific advancements. Not like there's a digital footprint and stuff to follow. No. By that time, Leeds had dried up completely. And while occasional reports and sightings of Lists came to the police and the FBI, they just always turned out to be cases of mistaken identity. Yeah. So by the end of the 70s, most people in Westfield had moved on.

And the stories of the Liss family and missing John List pretty much vanished from the papers entirely. That's crazy. I'm sure people were still talking about it. Yeah, it just wasn't like front page. Yeah. Unfortunately, things continue to be awful. the next story happens. In 1980, the executor of the List estate, Frederick Poppy, petitioned a court to declare John List officially dead so that the $15,000 in life insurance

could be released to the outstanding debts that he had. Poppy petitioned the court for this very thing even years earlier when the $225,000 that John had taken out in life insurance before the murders was still up for debate. Jesus. But at that time, the judge ruled the policies had lapsed and List and his estate were not eligible to claim the funds. Damn. The insurance companies were obviously not opposed or obviously opposed to paying out any of the money on the grounds that he killed his entire family. Yeah.

So, and ultimately the judge agreed. He said in the court's mind, John List is alive and well. I mean. And we won't be paying that out. But like that's a no. Thank you. Have a good day. Yeah.

In 1977, Chief Morin told the press, we know he's out there. We haven't forgotten him for a minute. We're waiting for him. to make that one mistake that everybody has to make. No one can be perfect forever. That's true. It is. So year after year, local press did publish their annual, where is John List, around the anniversary of the murders? As the years past, detectives grew increasingly frustrated by the lack of progress, especially those who retired from the force leaving the case open. Oh, yeah. Imagine having to just walk away from that. And knowing that it still isn't solved, but it's like this close. Yeah. And it's just

this like unanswered question in your professional life. Yeah. To make matters worse, those remaining on the case watched as finally advances in science and technology were starting to lead to other cases being solved while they remained unable to catch their killer. But then, in 1989, somebody had a bit of an unorthodox idea that would prove to be critical in the case. In 1988, Fox television debuted America's Most Wanted. Oh, have you ever heard of it? Yeah, ever heard of it. Ever heard of it. America's Most Wanted was an immediate success.

Within four days of the first episode airing, law enforcement officials captured David Roberts, who was a convicted killer, who had tunneled his way out of an Indiana prison two years earlier. I can't believe that people actually tunneled out of prisons. Yeah. Like, that's, like, shocking. It really is because...

It really is. You would think that would be pretty noticeable? I think we need to do a whole episode on prison escapes. Yeah, we do. actually is what has just occurred to me. That's a great idea. Yeah, we're going to do that because it's a little like part of true crime that just astounds me and I don't think I go far enough into it all the time. Especially tunneling. Yeah. Anytime somebody escapes from a prison, it's astounding because it's just the level of security in these prisons, you're just like how.

I feel like more oftentimes now it's like you have to befriend somebody. Yeah, oh yeah, you have to manipulate somebody now. Yeah, the most recent ones seem to be. via manipulation. Very manipulative. But back then, and like back in the day, that was straight up physically tunneling out of a prison or like hiding in a laundry basket. I was literally just going to say that. Yeah. We got to do a whole episode on him. Yeah. I love that idea. So we're going to do that. Yeah. We'll talk to Dave. Yep. All right. Isn't that crazy though within four days of America's Most Wanted premiering, they had already caught somebody? He was probably so pissed. He's like that fucking TV show. I tunneled out of this place. The goddamn mom.

modern 80s. Yeah. Now, by mid-1988, both the press and the police had started to accept that maybe John List was gone and maybe they weren't going to get justice. He's not. And here's the thing. Not everybody felt that way about the case. Around that time, Westfield Police Captain Frank Moronka, who had taken over the case

a year earlier, had recently taken an interest in America's Most Wanted. And he asked permission from the Union County District Attorney to pitch their case to the show's producer and the district attorney said, hell yeah, brother. Hell yeah. Brother. Brother. Now, some who had been involved in the investigation for years, if not from the beginning, were a little skeptical that the broadcasting or that broadcasting the case on television was really going to do much good. But by that time, they really had run out of ideas. They'd even consulted a psychic, so nobody saw any harm in the idea. Yeah. They were like, really, what else are we going to do? Truly. The psychic didn't work. Our investigation isn't working. Let's go, girl.

America's most wanted it is. So in his letters to the producers, Maranka outlined the case, going over the details and attempt to locate John List, and he included a significant amount of newspaper clippings to demonstrate the level of interest that was still going on.

Coincidentally, the pitch arrived on the desk of A. Cable Bruce, a former reporter for the Elizabeth Daily Journal, out of New Jersey. Ah. Well, hometown there. Ah. As a former New Jersey reporter,

Bruce was very familiar with the case, and he made the pitch or he made sure that the pitch made it to producers, because you have to imagine so many things come across those people's desks. It's like, I'm sure. It's like magic to get into a producer. Yeah. The request was actually initially rejected.

Wow. Isn't that crazy? A lot of the producers felt like the case was too old. Which like now I feel like it's just not a thing. No. As author Timothy Benford explains, America's Most Wanted was still new enough to get axed if it failed to live up to expectations.

Without recent photos of the suspect, The chances of picking up Bliss Trail after so many years were thought to be slim. It's so funny. People can be so like one, you know, like short-sighted. Yeah, like one-track mind. Yeah, like just being like, well, it's too old. We're not going to fix it. It's like, where's anybody's hope?

Yeah. Like, these are people. Yeah. It would be good to keep hope to say that we could find this guy. Well, and it's a little sad that like, like obviously it makes sense. It's a very new program. They do have to figure things out. But that's the thing.

Like it's not new enough. So, like, it's not going to make people excited that it's not this new thing. It's like, come on. If anything, I would be quite excited to help with a case that was decades old. That's the thing. We get so excited to tell those. When they come up in the news, it's like, holy shit. Yeah, exactly.

It's very cool. Now, undeterred, though, Maranca pitched the idea to unsolved mysteries. Oh, hell yeah, with Robert Stack, my guy. Period. Yeah. But that, too, was rejected by Purdue. For unsolved mysteries. Kind of the same reasoning.

They felt like it was too old. That's dumb as hell because Unsolved Mysteries has some crazy shit from like all different time periods. I know. I like the new one on Netflix, but I really do want to watch like the old version over again. I haven't watched the new ones yet because I'm a purist. I'm going to give it a little. I'm a purist. But it's just the feeling of the old's unsolved mysteries.

I know. When I would watch it before Rescue 9-1-1. It just I can't. I can't replicate that feeling and I'm scared to try. I used to live with this lady Judy and she fucking loved unsolved mysteries. Hell yeah. We would watch, I was like seven, eight. I would watch unsolved mysteries, law and order.

And then we'd watch Judge Judy. Wow. And the Red Sox. Wow. And that was our fucking lineup. Me and Judy were living. Me and Judy. I loved that lady.

I was unsolved mysteries and rescue 911. Especially if you were home from school, there would be the rerun. in the morning. Hell yeah. I don't think I remember Rescue 9-1-1. Rescue 9-1 was a real time. Do you know what I watched reruns of in the morning? Lorraine. No, Laverne and Cherley. Oh, yeah. I always want to say Lorraine. I loved that shit. Oh, so good. And Robert Stack's voice with the original theme song. Y'all, that used to scare the shit out of me. Yeah. He had the part, like, on the evening off. Oh, I didn't even do it justice. I can't believe I just did that. Yeah, that was, that was wild. I know. But I heard his voice in my head, but...

Shut out. My mouth couldn't do it. My voice box will never be Robert. Never. Well, neither one of us will ever be Robert. No, we can't. But I can hear it. I can feel it. And then the reenactments were always so spooky. I'm picturing one in my head. It was like a limo on like a dark street in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. There's probably several like that, I bet. Probably. I'd always scared me at the end when they would tell you this horrific. story and then they would be like, he is still on the run. So if you've seen this man, then call this

and you were like, what the fuck? Like at the end of it, you were always, you were locked in. Because it's also funny because you were shocked, but then you're like, oh, this is unsolved mysteries after all. Yeah. And it's like, but then you'd have those ones that like, like caught up with whatever was going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was like, you're watching unsolved mysteries. You're locked in. Yeah. And then they're like, strangely, this is unsolved. And every fucking. time, you would be like, oh my God, they're still on the loose. Robert, what do you mean? Yeah.

I don't know why we had such weird cognitive dissonance between the title of the show and the actual. It's all right. It happened every time. It was Robert's comforting voice. He made you feel like he was going to, you know, put a cherry on top and a bow on it. Yeah. And sometimes they give you a mystery that wasn't like a brutal murder.

That's true. So I think that those are the ones that you were like, oh, cool. That's wild. Let's solve that. But the fucking murder ones, you were like, solve that. Yeah. please find that man. And they were spooky.

Yeah. I don't know how to transition back into this. Nistalgia. Nistalgia. I'm not talking about America's Most Wanted yet. That's nostalgic. First, America's Most Wanted said no. Unsolved Mystery said no.

But after a few months on the air, America's Most Wanted had become a huge hit for the network. So Maranka decided he would try again to get the list case on the show. He's like, no, you're not worried about ratings. Yeah. What if we... Throw this old ass case on there. Can we put it in there?

So he tried again in December of 1988. Not satisfied this time with just sending the letter. He actually learned that one of the show's producers was going to be at an upcoming conference in Delaware. So in late January 1989, he made plans to travel there and make the pitch in person. Oh, wow. That's badass. Dedication. And the tenacity paid off, baby.

It always does. It always does. After giving his pitch to the producer in the lobby of the conference center, the producer accepted the case. And 10 weeks later, on April 12th, a film crew around. arrived in Westfield to shoot the segment. Yes. Hell yeah. So by the time the case had been accepted by the producers,

the show had led to the successful capture of 40 fugitives. And investigators hoped that soon they could make that 41, with John List being that 41. Detective Bernard Tracy said, we think it's our only real shot to find List. Although we get a lot of publicity around here, especially on the anniversary of the murders, nationwide, it doesn't get this much coverage.

So through interviews and dramatic recreations, we've all seen America's Most Wanted. The production team gave an overview of the case and efforts to find list, and they worked with a sketch artist to create renderings of him as he might have appeared now in 1989. It was an eight-minute segment. It appeared in an episode on May 21st, 1989, and within minutes, the hotline switchboard started just lighting up with tips coming in from all over the U.S. Let's go.

Tracy told reporters the following day, there's a couple that matches physical description. and his personality profile, but it would take time to sort through everything before they could provide any details. Tracy said, there's really only one call that counts. It's like the lottery, you know? We're just waiting on that one call. Yeah. Now unbeknownst to Tracy and the other investigators, that call had already come in. Oh, it's here, baby. It's here, honey. Just 40 minutes after the episode went off the air, the hotline received a call from Denver, Colorado. And the caller said that the artist's rendering of list looked very much like their former neighbor, Robert Clark, who had moved recently to Richmond, Virginia. The caller really didn't have a lot more information, but they did include

Clark's address in Virginia. Holy, this is 40 minutes after it airs. 40 minutes after it airs. America's next top model. I was like, America's next top fugitive. I was like, actually. America's most wanted period. Is incredible. It really is. It really is. Bernard Tracy remembered seeing the name Robert P. Clark as one of the other investigators combed through tips on note cards. Tracy actually recognized the name as somebody that he knew in Westfield. So it struck him as kind of funny that it should come up in this context. But at the same time, he said, it's not my guy. This one's in Virginia. It's funny to see the name of somebody you know pop up like this. Pretty hilarious. What a funny coincidence. Yeah. So he might not have thought that Robert Clark would have been John List, but the agents at the FBI field office in New Jersey were less certain. And on June 1st, they paid a visit to the address that was provided by the anonymous caller. When they knocked on the door, the agents were greeted by Robert Clark, a 64-year-old accountant who bore remarkable resemblance to New Jersey mass murderer, John List. What the fuck up. Special agent told reporters, although he would not admit his identity, List was positively identified by his fingerprints. That is incredible.

His denial was supported by his coolness. Other than the scar, until they got down to the fingerprints, he was very convincing. This motherfucker just moved into another house, got another job, a whole ass new identity, and just lived his life. after annihilating his entire family. You have no idea. Like, you have no idea. He remarried. And this asshole was like, yeah, I did it for mercy because I didn't want them to live, like, in sad.

At first. And it's like, but, oh, you just went on and had a whole other life? Like that, how merciful. Also, at first, he, they got him via fingerprints and he was like, nope. No. It's crazy that we have the same fingerprints. Not me. Not me.

Eventually, he was like, yeah, I did it for mercy. But first, he was like, no. Not me. I don't know who that is. I'm Robert Clark. I'm like, that's weird because you have the same fingerprints. That's literally just yours. Like, that's not a thing, babe.

Wow. Wild. So, like I said, after his arrest, he kept his mouth shut. But that didn't prevent FBI and detectives in Westfield from prying into the background of one, Robert Clark. Robert. Robert. You're pissing me off. From what they could tell, List I'd been working under a pseudonym as an accountant and a financial advisor for a Richmond area accounting firm.

A financial advisor is the grossest irony I've ever heard. It's diabolical. Like, that's disgusting. Killed his entire family because he couldn't afford his entire family. And then became a financial advisor for other families. So upsetting. Get me out of here. So upsetting.

That's disgusting. And like I said, he had even remarried in 1985 to Dolores Miller. Oh, DeLau. A woman he met in a 1977 Lutheran Church conference in Colorado. Cute. Agent McGinley said, when the agents confronted his new wife, she identified the picture as being very much looking like her husband. She's like, yeah, that's crazy.

That looks a lot like him. It does look like him. By all accounts, she genuinely appeared to have no knowledge of her husband's criminal history. Oh, that's very sad. I was going to say. News of the arrest came as a shock to nearly everybody who was close to the case. for 18 years, remember. He's been on the run for 18 years.

Holy shit. And for all those 18 years, friends and family of the murdered lists had basically started losing hope that this case would ever be solved and John would ever be found. Helen's sister, Jean said, I still can't believe it. This took my breath away. Yeah, I bet. The residents of Westfield, New Jersey were equally stunned by the arrest. Former next door neighbor who actually called the cops and got the whole thing kind of started. What a badass.

Bill Connick. He said, I didn't ever think he'd be caught because I didn't think he'd stay in the U.S. I knew he had a German background. I thought he would hole up in the backwoods of Bavaria or someplace like that. Honestly? Which, like, yeah, you would think he'd go to fucking Virginia. Yeah, and just live a whole new life. Like, and just assume he wasn't going to get caught.

Yeah, assume everything's going to be fine. Bill Kinnick wasn't the only person who imagined that John had to have flood the U.S. and established some kind of far off new life in a much different location. In fact, it seemed the most likely and reasonable assumption given exactly what he was fleeing from. But as detectives had established early on in their investigation, he didn't have a passport. So it would have been really, really hard for him to leave the country. Obviously not impossible. You can forge passports. But I think it was a little more tough back then. Tricky. So instead, he fled New Jersey for Michigan, as they had expected. But by the time the bodies had been discovered and the manhunt had begun, he had fled again.

this time to Denver, where he established himself as Robert Bob Clark, a mild-mannered, deeply religious accountant. Wow. The name, it turned out, was inspired by his one-time college classmate. Wow. Yeah. And the way that it's more shocking, too, that he didn't change his appearance at all. No.

Like, he just was like, yeah, I'm just Robert now. He just really looked like that. Your face is still your face. Yeah. Like, that's still a thing. Yeah. And your fingerprints are always your fingerprints. Yeah, they always are.

It's interesting that he didn't even try to like fuck those up. I know. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't really know that you can. Yeah. But it's like still. I don't know.

I guess weird that you didn't dip your fingers in acid. Just like dye your hair. Yeah. You know? You know? Do something. I don't know if he did dye his hair. I'm trying to.

Really? Yeah. No, he didn't. Yeah, he just like. I just wanted to make sure. I think that's why the neighbors were like, hey, that guy looks just like that guy. Because it's like he didn't do anything. Not only did he not do anything.

He kept wearing his same style of glasses. Yeah, like he literally didn't change anything. I was like, you didn't even get a new style of glasses. Yeah. He's like, I'm just John List. I'm literally Robert Clark dressed as John List. Yeah. That's all.

That doesn't. What are you doing? It's like, no, I just happen to look like that guy that murdered his whole family. I have no connections anywhere whatsoever. It's not me. We share the same fingerprints, but that's it. What does that say? Spoking gun.

Not only so. Get out of here. Now, any fantasies that the public had imagined for list, that he had fled to a remote island, that he was notorious skyjacker, D.B. Cooper, and so on, also turned out to be very far from the truth. Bummer. In reality, he had meticulously planned and executed the mass murder of his entire family in New Jersey, only to just move to another suburban area and basically start a life that was identical to the one he'd abandoned. That's what's crazy diabolical.

Like, that's diabolical. to just move to another suburb after you've murdered your... You've annihilated all of your children, your wife, and your mother. Yep. And you did it, quote unquote... As a mercy killing. As a mercy killing because you couldn't provide for them. So you move to another suburb and begin providing for another person.

Yeah. And yourself? And just keep living your life peacefully? You just lived the same life. He settled in Colorado. He found very similar work to what he'd already done. And he joined the Lutheran Church community. which he had already belonged to back in New Jersey. And he spent most of his leisure time in church-related activities, again, much like he'd done in New Jersey.

He's just such an asshole. Mm-hmm. Like, you're like, I just... He's an asshole. Yeah. Like, you're just an asshole. Yeah. Wow.

That's the thing. And what an asshole. He also continued to be an asshole, like when he moved. Because like his neighbors in Westfield, there weren't very many people in Colorado or in Virginia who seemed to know him very well. Like the people that lived near him. He's kept on his same bullshit. Yeah.

Like, what the fuck, dude? Switch it up. Switch your hair up. Switch your glasses up. I don't know why that pisses me off so much. Because they're so recognizable. He looks like John List. He wears like horn-rimmed glasses.

Yeah. Get different glasses. Literally. In 1977, he attended that church singles dance where he met Dolores Miller, his future wife. Wow. She was a 40-year-old divorcee who also obviously attended the church. Now, even after the-old.

They'd been dating after they, you know, had a cute meet cute at the church dance. Even after they'd been dating for several months, Dolores kept the relationship to her herself. Huh, which I think is a little interesting. That's interesting. It was only after List moved in with her in the fall of 1985 that she introduced him to her friend and neighbor, Wanda Flannery. Flannery said, Dolores never told me about Bob. I didn't meet him until he moved in. And a month later, they got married.

That's weird. Yeah. But that's just me. I think that's a little bit weird. Yeah. About six months later, John got laid off from his job, and they spent the next like 18 months living off of Dolores' salary from her job. In 1987, John responded to a want ad in a Virginia paper seeking accountants, and he was offered a position with the company, and that's why they moved to Virginia. Oh, okay.

Now, Wanda Flannery was among the millions of Americans who watched America's Most Wanted that night, and she recognized John List, aka Bob, immediately. Oh, no. She said, I said, that's Bob. I told my son-in-law, call the FBI. Give them Bob and Dolores' address in Virginia. Or nor. So she set into motion the chain of events that led to John List's arrest. Wanda Flannery.

The fact that she saw him and was just like, that's Bob. Yeah. Like, that's crazy. She's like, no fucking doubt about it. Yeah, like he didn't change his appearance at all. But she said, he still has the same glasses. Because usually people are like, I don't know, like that looks like him. You know, like there's always that kind of thing.

She's like, no, that's him. Yeah. Now, despite the, again, overwhelming evidence against him, including a positive match for his fingerprints, which conclusively identify him as John List. Like, you are the father that annihilated your family. Yeah. Delores refused to believe that her husband and John List were the same person. In his statement to reporters in June of 1989, she said, I don't believe it. I love my husband very deeply. I do not believe this is the same man. I have never known Robert to be anything but a sweet and gentle man of good character. We've had a happy marriage filled with mutual love and respect. People who know Robert would agree he has a great desire to do well and to maintain good relationships with others. He's always been very helpful and kind to those in need. Robert is an exceptional man. So did he steal someone's fingerprints or? Did he get like a hand transplant? Literally the only response to that is, so how does he have John Liss fingerprints? The only response to that is Dala.

And she says that's not him and you say, but how does he have John Lus finger? Like, if you can explain that to me, sure, Dolores. I will absolutely go along with this. Yeah. I understand. I can't imagine. Finding out your husband of however many years. Killed his whole family years earlier.

He annihilated his children, mother, and former wife. But when they have the same fingerprints... They're the same person. You do have to take that into consideration. Not even consideration. You just have to acknowledge that. But you know what? I feel like Dolores is not at the point of acknowledgement here.

I think take it into consideration. She's not even taking it. And she's like... Like maybe think critically on that. Fingerprints. I am not interested in positive identification. She's like... That's just no.

Robert equal sign slash John. No. No. Period. And it's like just roll it around a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I feel bad because I can't imagine. I can't.

I can't. I can't. I really cannot. Set off in your life. Yeah. But whether she wanted to admit it or not, there was no denying the fact that Dolores's husband Bob was indeed family annihilator John List. That's horrific.

But she herself enlist continued to insist that they had arrested the wrong man. He's wild for that. No, even while he was being held in jail pending his arraignment, he continued to refer to himself as Bob Clark and insisted that other people do the same. He's like, that's the identity I have adopted, so you will call me that. But you're John List, and that's what we're going to call you. And it's like, nope, you are literally John List. Yeah. Elsewhere, though, in Union County, New Jersey, prosecutors Eleanor Clark and Brian Gillette were preparing to receive their long-awaited fugitive and were eager to put an end to this entire fucking charade. Hell yeah, get him.

So John List spent eight months in a New Jersey jail cell, mostly quietly reading his Bible. Bible. Reader Bible. Or writing letters to friends, all while continuing to insist that he was not John List, but he was Robert Clark of Virginia. By February of 1990, when it became clear that literally not one single person on this earth aside for maybe his wife believed him, they confronted him with the fact that his identity had been proved several different times through fingerprinting. Yeah. He finally gave up and was like, you know what? It's me. He's like, gotcha. Gotcha guys. They're like crazy. But you never did, John.

It's like, no, we knew the whole time. Yeah. So his trial began in Elizabeth, New Jersey on April 1st, 1990. In his opening statement, assistant district attorney, Brian Gillette laid out the state's basic theory. John List killed his whole family to solve a problem that God didn't. Whoa. Yeah. citing the letter that he had written to his reverend, Galette told the jury that when faced with financial problems, he couldn't see his way out of. John List engaged in the quote. quote, systematic executions of his family, rather than face the embarrassment of poverty. That's chilling. It is. He said his plan was, quote, the worst possible nightmare for any mother, child, or wife, a brutally senseless killing at the hands of somebody they loved and depended on. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Yeah. Defense attorney Elijah Miller had a far different explanation for the crimes. He tried, but he was unable to get the letter that John had written to his pastor and some other evidence thrown out. So he decided to lean into the contents of the letter to the past. faster instead. Since he couldn't get rid of it, he was like, okay, let's work with this. Due to list strict religious upbringing, he believed himself to be the keeper of his family's salvation and the only one who could prevent them from sinking deeper into perdition.

Huh. Yeah. Miller told the jury, on that fateful day, he stepped from despair into oblivion. He entered hell with his eyes open. He committed these acts with love in his heart for his mother, his wife, children. I have one thing to say. Hold on. To simply walk away would be a violation of what he's been taught. The need to do right. Literally go fuck yourself. Period. That is the yuckiest defense I have ever heard in my entire life. That last line especially. That is disgusting. To simply walk away would have been a violation of what he'd been taught the need to do right. I know that it's their job. but I gotta wonder how this person goes home. Do you have a family that you go home to?

You just said those words and then you go home to your family. That's insane. That's wild work. It's true insanity. Like I realize I respect defense attorney. Like you guys know that. I don't want to hear anything. We've been through this.

Don't do the whole like defense attorney. I know. This defense attorney? Are you kidding me here? Again, I know they have to make the case. case. I realize that. But like, what do you do when you go home? Like, are you doing a thousand Hail Marys for what you just did? I don't know if like impressed is the right word, but like the mental gymnastics is somewhat impressive. No, oh, it absolutely is. Because I'm just like, wow,

you just took like one of the worst people on the planet. And we all know he killed his whole family, but you have to like make us think that he thought that was okay. Like you like you have to make him into some kind of like righteous holy warrior for his family yeah like a crusader and that like he did like the way he said he committed these acts with love in his heart

is diabolical like that's I'm sorry that's insane to say like really when he shot his son multiple times while like chasing him around the house after he got home from soccer practice literally I have to wonder being on that jury I'd be like are you fucking kidding me with that like I'd feel like immediately

I'd be like, guilty, gross. Like, what the fuck? Basically, I think in so many words, or without so many words, he was trying to use religious psychosis. Of course he was. Essentially, he was arguing it was John's religious upbringing that had left him with no other options. As far as fleeing after committing the murders, because it's like, wait, but where did

the psychosis that go? That too was the result of his religious belief, according to the defense attorney. Suicide would have been a sin. But murders not? No. But murdering your entire? family is not. No, you're doing salvation for them. What the fuck is a sin at that point? What is the, what is the meaning of the word sin? Well, you get to perceive it on your own. Yeah, you get to make it up as you go

along. That's fun. Yeah, I love it. Isn't that convenient. Yeah, super cool. Fuck that. That's insane. Yeah, it's kind of like a choose-your-own adventure. Yeah, that's crazy. Now, under the circumstances, Elijah Miller's argument to the jury was a big fucking ask. He wanted, this is the thing. He wanted them, obviously to believe that John was so psychologically impaired that he planned the systematic execution of his entire family in some weird twisted attempt to save their souls. But then also fled. That's the thing. But that was still psychosis. And created an entire new identity and lived a quiet life and continued running. Pretending to be someone else because he knew what he did was wrong. Right. That's not psychosis, babe. But he suggested the evidence would show that that religious upbringing and

lifelong strict adherence to his faith had convinced him that what he was doing was an act of love. But again, that did not explain the obvious question left in everybody's mind. If Liss believed these things so completely and believed that he was doing the right thing, why not turn himself in immediately? That's the thing. So suicide is the sin. Okay. Got it.

Sure. Cool that you can make up what's a sin and what's not. For sure, for sure. That's a really fun part of this whole thing. Sure. Yep. I'll go with it. So there's only one other.

option and that's flee. Right. We're forgetting that special third option, which is turn yourself in and face the fucking consequences of your actions. Isn't that? That to me feels a little more holy and godly. Isn't that contrition? Then exactly. Yeah, that's a whole thing in the Bible. But instead, you're going to fuck off and leave and make up a whole new identity and live with some other woman? That's not very contrite. That doesn't seem very. Like, are you kidding me with that? No. I know they didn't have a lot to work with here, but holy hell. He really didn't. Holy hell. I also was like, did you think you were going to win with this? Yeah, I'd be like, I don't want this one.

I'd feel like that's a no for me. I think I'll take a different one, please. Yeah. The fact that John List murdered his family, his entire family, was never in question. But what was, was the matter of whether he had been of sound mind when he did it. I guess that was in question. Yeah, that had to be in question, I guess. Yeah.

In the days that followed the jury and the judge heard testimony from a number of expert witnesses, who went over the evidence collected from the List House, essentially providing a detailed account of the murders as they were believed to have happened. Finally, on April 6th, the jury heard testimony that they had all been waiting for. Testimony as to the motive. In response to Miller's questions, Pastor Eugene Rewinkle said, I think John's problem was he knew doctrine, but he didn't know faith. I think John all the way along thought he was doing what was right, but he didn't trust God to be able to handle his problems.

I think he... Interesting interpretation. I think his interpretation has a little bit of truth to it. I do too. I think I can see that. Because I think what he's, I think the interesting part of that is he knew doctrine. But not faith. But not faith.

Because he didn't have faith in God that God would reverse this situation. Exactly. And that he was strictly going by black and white ink on paper situation. And he wasn't sitting there and really thinking on what these things mean. Right. And how he could interpret them to do anything other than murder his entire family. Right. Because instead, if he had faith, he would have looked to God and said, I trust in you to

Yeah, and this is going to turn around. To make the situation better and I'm going to keep praying on it. Yeah. You know? So I can see where he's coming from on that. Not kill my whole family. Yeah. But, you know, who am I?

Yeah. So the reverend's testimony supported Miller's defense perfectly, though. John List had misunderstood biblical teaching so thoroughly, memorizing the words, but not internalizing their meaning that he'd resorted to the unthinkable believing it was the right thing. But that also doesn't, that doesn't prove. Well, here's the thing. Because it's like, okay, so he's like, kind of. kind of like he's just misinterpreting words and we're going to be like, oh, you get the pass for that one.

Right. You didn't understand the passage. I get it. Like, it's like, no. You don't get to be like, I didn't understand that paragraph. Yeah. So I murdered my whole family. Not even like the paragraph.

He didn't understand it as a whole. Like it's just you don't get a pat. That doesn't make you insane. No. That just makes you not have good reading skills. Yeah. You're not good at context clues. Yeah.

You know. But there were other explanations for John's. actions that were less spiritual in nature. In his testimony, Dr. Lionel Aaronworth, a physician who had examined list two months earlier, suggested one explanation for John's life on the run, could have been explained by his untreated diabetes molitis. According to this doctor, the disease can cause memory elapses. And during their last interview, John was rambling and unable to answer questions about his

family, college degrees, or employment history without prompting. Diabetes. Yeah, it's crazy. I don't think so. It's wild the amount of people with diabetes that just annihilate their family and then go on the run for 18 years. Just forget about it. It's so common. Yeah.

It should be on like the list of like symptoms for diabetes. Yeah, diabetes malingis for sure. Your might annihilate your whole family and then leave and go on the run and adopt a new identity for 18 years. You won't even know what you did. Yeah. And you should get away with it for that. Yeah. You know.

That's the other thing. I'm like, even if that was the case, he still killed his whole family. Yep, he sure did. And went on the run about it. So I don't, what if he murders more people and then forgets about it? I'm going to call bullshit on this one. Same Zies. Yeah.

On April 7th, though, psychiatrist Dr. Sheldon Miller took the stand to provide an alternate explanation for list behavior. Dr. Sheldon Miller testified, he was a man who was stuck, who was being bombarded with stresses that he was always taught to try to contain control. He was faced with considering his options and he virtually snapped. Miller evaluated John List following his arrest and diagnosed him with obsessive compulsive. of personality disorder, which he said, explain to me why a lot of those things happened. According to Miller, List allowing his family, quote, to go on welfare would open them to ridicule,

that Mr. List did show that Mr. List did not love them and violate the teachings he received from an authoritarian, I can never say that, father who taught him to care for and protect his family and never allow them to go on the public dole. Everybody's got to get it together. They've really like, you just got to. get it together. Yeah. Now here's another doctor. Dr. Alan Goldstein, a clinical psychologist with the

John Jay College of Criminal Justice, strengthened the defense's argument by concurring with Miller's diagnosis. According to Goldstein, John Liss knew killing his family was morally and civilly wrong, but he, quote, possessed enough problems with his thinking process that he couldn't re-evaluate his plan. He wasn't served well by his intellect. So basically he said he's a dumbass. Literally he's like, he was stupid. And he didn't understand the Bible. And he didn't get the Bible. Or the teachings. So we killed his family. Like, let's all just like get over it. Yeah. He just doesn't get it. Yeah. So let him be stupid and misinterpret Bible teachings. Yeah, that's it. He just has to go to Bible camp. There you go. It happens. So the testimony from the defense witnesses was compelling, I guess. I don't even know if I would call it that.

I was going to say it's compelling the word. The testimony from the defense witnesses was there. But the prosecution had their... It happened. It happened. It was a thing. It existed. But the prosecution had their own expert witness, a psychiatrist Dr. Stephen Smearing, who offered more insight into LIS rationale at the time of the murders. Smearing agreed with the other experts that LIS did meet the criteria for obsessive-compulsive disorder. But he disagreed with their assessment of Lissibility to process information at the time. Dr. Smearing had also evaluated LISD after he'd been arrested,

And his assessment was that while John List did appear to be suffering from the symptoms of illness at the time of the killings, he was still, quote, capable of deliberating on his decision to kill his entire family. Yeah. He wasn't actually psychotic in those moments. No. Like he wasn't criminally insane. No. He understood that this was wrong. That's why he went on the run.

He also had the wherewithal to plan. Yep. Sit down and plan these murders. He went through it a whole day. He turned up the AC. Exactly. Like, let's be real here. Exactly.

There's a lot of planning and a lot of steps that were taken here. Yeah. And that's the thing. According to Smearing, List description of the days leading up to the murder, suggests that he was not fully committed and could have turned back at several points before going through this plan, meaning he may have been impaired at the time, but not so impaired that he couldn't have stopped himself with this whole plan. Yeah.

So on April 12th, the jury entered the deliberation room and argued for six hours before around six hours, before finally calling it a night a little after 6 p.m. The next day, just before noon, they emerged from their chambers to find John List guilty on five counts of first-degree murder. As each verdict was read a lot in the courtroom, John List just sat stock still at the defense table peering down at the floor. Imagine facing the fucking fire after 18 years of dick and around as Robert Clark. Good. Look at the fucking ground. Like how...

Look at the ground for the rest of your fucking life. Per New Jersey law, each count carried an automatic life sentence. So that's five life sentences right there. Bye, babe. When asked for comment, prosecutor Eleanor Clark told reporters, the state's very gratified. It deserved the verdict. Justice was not denied because of the delay. Now, following the announcement of the verdict, John was removed to Trenton State Prison to begin serving his sentences. A few years later, he did appeal the verdict, arguing that his judgment had been impaired by post-traumatic stress disorder from his military service in World War II and Korea and that his letter to the pastor should have been kept confidential. Both of those motions were denied

by the courts. Yeah, it's a no for me. So for nearly 40 years, he really said very little about the murders and really expressed zero remorse for them either. Finally, in 2002, he did agree to sit down with ABC News and he sat down with anchor Connie Chung to talk about the case. He told Connie I feel when we get to heaven, we won't worry about these earthly things. They'll either have forgiven me or won't realize, you know, what happened. So he literally... I know that wild interpretation of religion. When we get to...

I'm also like, so you killed your whole family and you think that when you get to heaven, you'll bamboozle them again. Yeah. He's literally like, I love that he's like, I'll get to heaven and maybe like, maybe they also have diabetes and they won't remember what happened. Yeah. You know? You never know. Maybe that's what's going to happen in heaven. We won't worry about these earthly things.

No. If I'm in heaven and you killed me, I'm going to still be pissed off about it. I'm a fine Jew. I'll fight you in heaven. How about that? Yeah, catch me in heaven. How about that? He's literally just relying on like, they'll forget.

I don't know. Maybe people forget stuff all the time. They're not worried about it anymore. Yeah, no. Earth, heaven, different. You know what? That happened so long ago. I'm also like, so what are you going to do when Dolores dies?

Because she's your wife too. You're just going to, like, introduce them to. each other? Like, what's the vibe there? Yeah, just be like, oh, this is weird. What's your plan? Awkward. Also, you think you're going to heaven? You annihilated your whole family. Yeah. I don't even know if I believe in that, but if I did, I don't think you're going there. Now, when asked whether he understood that he violated both God and man's laws, he replied, I knew it was wrong. As I was doing it, I knew it was wrong. Oh, there it is. Boom. Despite that, though, he spent most of the four-hour interview trying to explain away his actions by offering the same claims

of financial stress and religious anxiety, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you still can't kill your whole family. No, you can't. Fortunately, John List died on March 21st, 2008 from complications from pneumonia. And I hope it sucked. He was 82. Bye. I don't think he deserved to live that long.

No. What a case, though, and what a jackass. He just really barely ever took any responsibility at all. I was just like, what? I'm going to heaven and I'll see my family there, and they won't know. For him to still be like, I don't know. I didn't have money. Okay.

And I was pissed about it. Like, that's it? Like, it's just, oh. Cool. Maybe you don't buy a fucking mansion then that you can't afford. Exactly. Sell your goddamn house. Yeah.

What are you doing? Stick with your original realtor who wasn't going to sell beyond your means. And he's still just eight, 80 years old being like, I don't know, I'll get into heaven. And I think everyone will have forgotten about it by then. I don't think he's there. And it's like, you just hanging on to that. I think if Jesus saw him at the doors with those horn-rimmed glasses, he'd say, Denied entry.

Denied entry. No way. Hate it. What an asshole. Truly the biggest asshole. I do think it is my turn for a fun fact. You've done a couple fucked facts. Yeah, I've done some fucked facts.

Let's see. We need a fun fact. I do need a fun fact. Abraham Lincoln was a licensed bartender. What? Imagine just shooting the shit with Abe at the bar. That's wild. mixing you up a drank. Damn. Yeah, I love that. Good for him. In 1833, he and his business partner secured an official tavern license in Illinois.

I love that for him. Yeah. He was the only U.S. president to hold a liquor license. That's sick. Yeah. Good for him. He's a good time guy. I just love picturing him behind like a modern day bar. Yeah, and I just put, and I know he probably wasn't, but I think he was wearing the hat. No, you know, he was. You know, he for sure was. Yeah. It just feels that way. It makes sense. You got to like keep your hair back. Yeah. I love it. I love it. So we hope you keep listening. And we hope you. Keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't talk to your next bartender about Abe Lincoln.

Yeah. I said Lincoln weird. Lincoln. Lincoln. Lincoln. Abe Lincoln. I gotta go.