Morbid - The Kidnapping of Barbara Jane Mackle

Starting point is 00:00:24 It's probably never going to be anything else. I was just going to say it's never going to change. Yeah, I don't know why I said probably. I was like, it might not ever be anything else. I'm like, what is it going to be? Nothing. What's it going to turn into? It's always going to be us.

Starting point is 00:00:37 It's always going to be us, but you know what? There's going to be more content. More content, more content. I love you. More content. We're not going to get into the deeds because we want to like surprise you. Yeah, and we're like still planning it. Yeah, we are.

Starting point is 00:00:52 But there's going to be more content. year so like get psyched yeah we've we've been working we've been working so I'm excited I hope you guys are excited because we love you yeah we love you so much we want to give you as much content as we possibly can all the content shoved on your face all the content eat it sorry okay we're like super duper like punchy today super punchy you weren't you were like very just like regular I was very subdued and just living my life today and then I showed up it was punchy as fuck and it just kind of like radiated on to me which i appreciate i'm happy yeah i don't know why i am this way i love it but i'm in a great mood it's great um here's a little bit about me i woke up before my

Starting point is 00:01:35 alarm this morning and i made myself a smoothie so maybe that's the key to being happy honestly i feel like waking up before your alarm starting the day way earlier it always feels like it's gonna suck but when you do it it it sets the tone i think it's also it always makes me feel good for the day yeah it does and i think it's also not hearing your fucking alarm tone. Oh yeah. Waking up to something that is not a shitty alarm tone. You know what's really funny in my mind now I was like, oh, don't say that. Don't say fucking. And then I was like, wait, this is morbid. Why did I feel that way? Because you've been around the kids. Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been swearing in front of the children lately. She's having trouble lately. And Elena's like, what is this? Can you please stop? And I'm like, oh God, I'm not ready yet.

Starting point is 00:02:18 I'm not ready yet. And I just kind of like flow into it because I'm used to it, like not swearing. in front of them, which it's like, I'm not like, I don't really care if people swear in front of their kids. No, of course not. And it's like really just never. It's more just like we don't want the little one to repeat. Yeah. And I just, we just kind of always did that with them.

Starting point is 00:02:35 Like, we don't really care if other people don't. Like, do you, man. Yeah. But it's just funny to hear. Because Ashley was right along with us and then all of a sudden just fell out of it. And I was like, what happened? I don't even know why either. Like all of a sudden she's just a pirate.

Starting point is 00:02:50 And I don't know. I mean, I was raised by like two things. because my dad was a sailor and Papa was. Yeah, so there you go. Anyways, that was a lot about me. That little tidbit turned into a lot. So let's move on to the true crime part of the show. Yeah, we're jumping right in.

Starting point is 00:03:03 Boom. Let's go. All right. So I picked this case and I pulled a you. I was working on another case and then this case was in the sidebar. I shit you not. Yep. And it has a weird.

Starting point is 00:03:14 It's just like a tiny little detail that parallels to yours case that you just did. And I was like, it's not that weird, but like I always look into signs a lot. And I was like, whoa, so weird. It's a sign. We'll get there when we got there. But this case is crazy. And it hasn't really been covered by too many of the true crime podcast that I usually listen to other than Generation Y, who I fucking love. Guys, quick little sidebar.

Starting point is 00:03:39 Oh, no, go. You're like leading me into mine. If you're not listening to Generation Y. What the fuck. Why? One, go listen to Generation Y. And two, you are going to have a blast because there are so many episodes that you can go through. They have hundreds and they are great.

Starting point is 00:03:54 And I just like their flow together. Yeah, they've always been one of my favorites. They're a vibe and a half. They did a really good job covering this case. Like, this case is hard to put together. Because number one, there's a lot of misinformation about this case, which, by the way, if you didn't see the title, is the Mary Morris murders. The Mary Morris murders.

Starting point is 00:04:13 Correct. But yeah, there's a lot of misinformation out on there, on the internet. It's out on those internet. Out on those internets. Out on those internets. Out on that grid, there's so much misinformation. There is. And it was hard to like put together, but Generation Y, I listened to their coverage.

Starting point is 00:04:28 And I was like, oh, listen to you guys. Like, you found what I found. Okay. Listen to you guys. Because I was like, shit. Like, what's right? What's not right? Like, am I right?

Starting point is 00:04:36 Are we right here? And then I also came across this other podcast, the prosecutor's podcast. They're a great podcast. Yeah, they're really good. They did a three-part series on these two murders, which I didn't get the chance to finish listening to. But I did see it credited a lot in the sources that I found for this episode. Hey, get it, prosecutors podcast. Yeah, I wanted to shout them out because they were credited in a lot of the sources that I went to. Well, in the fact that they had like a background in law,

Starting point is 00:05:03 like, I feel like that's so helpful for a true crime podcast. Yeah, they're very, you can listen to them and be like, you are credible as fuck. Yeah, because I'm just a fucking hairstylist. That's pretty, that's gotten like pretty all right at research over the couple years that we've been doing this. Pretty all right. All right. If I do say so myself. So let's get into the story. In our coverage of this story, I kind of wanted to start somewhere in the middle, which will bring us to October 16th, 2000 in Houston, Texas. Marilynne Bollock had just been to her mother, Mary Lou Henderson-Morris's funeral. And her mother, Mary Lou, had been murdered just days earlier on October 12th. So after the funeral, she called the coroner's office to see if she could get back some of her mother's personal belongings, including some jewelry.

Starting point is 00:05:46 and the reply that she got back left her rather confused and shook. The receptionist on the other line said that they still had Mary Morris's body and that the personal belongings could get picked up after the funeral. Huh. And Marilyn was like, what? Like freaking out. And she went on to say, quote, I was thinking, we just had the funeral. I saw the remains.

Starting point is 00:06:11 And I was looking at something that wasn't my mother. What? Luckily, that was not the case. The family did have the remains of their loved one. However, another woman named Mary Morris had been killed and discovered just four days after Marilyn's mother Mary. Wow. Two Mary Morris has killed pretty much in the same spot. I'm already like, all right, who fucked this up?

Starting point is 00:06:35 Yeah, for real. For real, for real, for real. So before we get into the second murder, let's talk about Mary Lou Henderson Morris. Mary Lou was 48 years old and she lived in the Spring Valley neighborhood of Baytown, Texas, which is in the greater area of Houston, if you're familiar with Texas, which I'm not super familiar with it. But I know a ton of you are. And I went to Texas once and I really liked it.

Starting point is 00:06:58 But she and her husband, Jay, they had been married for about five years and they built their house together. And by all accounts, they were in a really loving marriage. Of course. Yeah, of course. Mary had been married once before to a man named Jim Henderson, who was. Marilyn's father. Okay. But by the time that Mary and Jay met, through a personal ad in the paper, which I thought was just the cutest thing ever. Very precious.

Starting point is 00:07:19 Marilyn was an adult by this point. So she remembered that her mother was, quote, one of the nicest people that you'd ever want to know. She acted like she was 20. She was always going somewhere. She was always doing something. She never missed a day of work. It just sounds like an all-around, like amazing lady. Like I would want to hang out with her. Of course. Mary liked to garden in her spare time. And I guess she had this really beautiful rose garden. And she also loved to ride horses. Oh, she's just lovely. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:45 So when she wasn't busy planting or riding horses, she was working at the Chase Bank in Houston. She had been with the bank for about 15 years, and she worked there as a loan officer. So the morning of October 12, 2000, was a pretty standard morning for her. When she woke up, she got ready for work. She got her things together. She got herself ready. Jay was kind of still waking up because on this particular morning, Mary was waking up a little bit earlier than usual because she had like a lot of work to do at the bank okay so he was kind of still getting up but

Starting point is 00:08:15 they like to kind of like talk in the morning before they headed their separate ways so he was getting up and he walked her down to her car he wished her a good day at work and then he waved as she drove away okay and like picturing that in my head is just like the sweetest like a wholesome little morning i love it he remembered seeing mary Chevy lumina oh there's the parallel the lumina lumina that's the really parallel that's so that's a freaky little parallel yeah but he remembered seeing her lumina pull onto the street that she would usually take if she was going to stop and get gas. So he figured that she was filling up the tank before she got her day started, didn't really think too much of it. Also, just quick little side note in case you didn't listen to the last episode and

Starting point is 00:08:53 you're like, what the hell are you talking about? In the last episode that we did, the last two, Brandon Swanson, part one and two, he was driving a Chevy Lumina when he went missing. So, boom. I just didn't want to be able to know that. If you just jumped into this episode to be like, huh? What parallel? Where? Chevy Lumina. That's the parallel. Yeah. That's it. That's it.

Starting point is 00:09:14 So the Lumina pulled onto the street that she usually pulled onto when she was getting gas. And he was like, okay, cool. She's getting gas. Whatever. Didn't think much of it. So he goes back inside, kind of like does his thing, not realizing that that would be the last morning he would ever spend with his wife. Oh, that's horrible.

Starting point is 00:09:29 He had spent a lot of the day actually trying to reach Mary, but he wasn't able to. And around two in the afternoon, he got a call for Mary's supervisor at work asking if Mary was home. the supervisor didn't say who they were like they weren't like hi this is mary supervisor they were just like oh hi is mary home and he was like oh no she's at work or like something like that so when i was listening to generation wise coverage of the story i was really happy to hear that they found that as weird as i did yeah because that is strange why would the supervisor not say like oh hi this is her supervisor in the first place but especially after her husband said like oh she's at work

Starting point is 00:10:07 would you not say, oh, hey, this is her supervisor, and that's why I'm calling. She didn't show up today? 100%. That's what you'd say. Right. But I guess this call was a simple, hey, is she there? No, she's at work. Cool, bye. That doesn't make any sense. No, it makes no sense at all. So weird. So after the call, Jay thought he might hear from Mary, maybe to explain who was calling earlier, because again, he doesn't know, or even just to check in, because he said that.

Starting point is 00:10:37 that they talked all the time throughout the day. And he had been trying to reach her cell phone to no avail. Later on, he would realize that she actually never took it to work with her that day. It was still connected to the charger. She must have just left in a hurry and forgot her cell phone. It happens. I do that all the time. So finally, around five that night, he called the bank,

Starting point is 00:10:56 and he was told that Mary never showed up for work that day. And immediately the hairs on the back of his neck stood up. Because in all the years that he had known Mary, and really all the years that anybody had known Mary, She was not the type to miss a day of work and definitely not the type to no call, no show. Like, there's no way she would have done that. See, this is why it's good to be that way. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:11:18 Because then when something like this happens, people notice right away. Exactly. If you're someone who's always calling into work or you're just no calling, no showin, people are just going to assume that. Exactly. I wish I could tell myself that when I was younger. But she had been with the bank, like I said, for about 15 years. So they had a pretty good consensus on like who she was. and all of them agreed something had to be wrong here.

Starting point is 00:11:40 So Jay contacted Mary's daughter, Marilyn, who also had not heard anything from Mary that day. And then the two of them got together and they contacted the police to file a missing person's report. Now, they hopped in the car together and they kind of tried to retrace Mary's steps that day. I think their first thought was that they were worried, you know, maybe she had some kind of car trouble and she's stranded somewhere and she has no way of reaching us. Yeah. But at that point, she'd been gone for a while. So it's like we really need to figure out what's going on here. Yeah, something's a miss.

Starting point is 00:12:10 Now, while they were driving, they caught wind about a nearby fire in the area. There was apparently a burned out car reported only about three miles from Jay and Mary's house. So they made their way there. But once they got close enough, the investigators told them that they couldn't stay and they needed to go home and just wait to hear more. Oh, man. So earlier... I wonder if they were able to be like, what kind of car is it? I don't even think they could tell.

Starting point is 00:12:36 Yeah. So earlier that day at about 10 a.m., a call had come into the local fire station, and someone had reported that there was smoke coming from this remote area. And at the time, Mary hadn't been reported missing yet, and fires must be like pretty routine in this area because the firefighters didn't send anybody to check over there. They kind of just assumed that it was like trash burning or like something like that. Yeah. So they thought that's all it was and it never really got paid attention to until around the same time

Starting point is 00:13:05 that Jay and Marilyn were reported. reporting Mary Lou missing, another call came in about that area where the fire had been. But this call was a little different and far more sinister. The caller explained that they had been out on their ATV in this specific area and that they had come across at, quote, unquote, an abandoned car that was fully ignited. And the fire was like spreading around the car at this point. Oh, wow. So the police rushed to the scene and they were able to confirm after some time that, that this was Mary Lou Henderson Morris's Chevy Lumina.

Starting point is 00:13:39 What? The car was not abandoned. Mary Lou was left inside. Oh, man. Now, I've seen it reported that she was found in the passenger seat of the car. And I've also seen it reported that she was in the back seat of the car. But nowhere have I seen it reported that she was in the driver's seat. Okay.

Starting point is 00:13:56 So that's interesting. So she was in a seat that she probably shouldn't have been in. Yes, exactly. Kind of like makes you wonder was she carjacked? Like, had she not been driving the car out? here. And when we learn a little bit more later, you're like, there's no way that she was driving. So that makes sense. So it would take them days to identify what was left of her. And they would end up having to go off of dental records. I had a feeling. That fire had been blazing for at least seven hours

Starting point is 00:14:23 by the time they responded. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Like that must have been. Because the call was reported at 10 that there was smoke from that area. This is now like like after five at this point. Oh, wow. So that's long time. There was not a lot left of her. You can do a lot of damage. Yeah. A lot of damage. Kind of concerning that they were just like content with the report of a fire, whether or not that they just thought it was like burning trash, but I guess I'll save that concern for another day. Yeah, I was kind of wondering that myself, but you know, that was the explanation. It must just be like common in that area. I guess. Right in if you live there. Right in. Right in. So some of the jewelry that Mary had been wearing that day was still with her body, but one key piece of jewelry was

Starting point is 00:15:05 missing. Her wedding ring. Ooh. Her wedding ring was missing, and so was her purse. But for some reason, the police didn't believe that this was motivated by robbery. Dear police. Wah. Wa? How? I don't really understand. I did see it reported in some sources that there were other valuables left in the car, but I can only assume that they mean the jewelry that was left on her body and nothing else, because I would assume that everything else in that car would just be ash. Yeah, you would think so. At that.

Starting point is 00:15:35 point. No other valuables were mentioned by name and the police were like truly stumped because obviously nothing was left behind by the killer. And because Mary's body was so badly burned, there was really no way to determine how she died. And what a way to do it. It's like that is such a planned and very organized way of disposing of someone. It very much is. And killing someone that it's like, what happened here? Like this isn't just somebody who's, like random like, you know, crazy person on the highway that's just like, I'm going to kill someone today and do this. It's like, it seems very planned. And this is like a pretty much residential area to a degree. So like, what the hell is going on here? And the weirdest thing too was like obvious. So

Starting point is 00:16:20 they start talking to everybody that is close to her. They start talking to people she worked with, people who she dealt with at the bank. Literally not one person had a bad word to say about this woman. Everybody loved her. And there was no sign of trouble in the marriage. She had an ex-husband that was actually searching for her before she was found and he was cleared of any wrongdoing. Like it just, there was nothing to go off of. And this kind of crime scene, like I said, it like reeks of somebody who is involved in something very shady. Like very nefarious. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:53 And it's like, and this doesn't seem to be the case here. No. So it's like what? And usually like the first time you do something like this, you're not going to commit like arson. Like that's. Yeah, you're not going to. Yeah. This just doesn't, it doesn't seem like somebody who's just like, oh, I'm just going to give this a shot.

Starting point is 00:17:08 It's like somebody who has done this before. Absolutely. And is doing this for a reason. Absolutely. Like sending a very real message. And the wedding ring being missing is huge. And that's going to come back later. Don't worry.

Starting point is 00:17:18 So just put that in your back pocket. I'm going to stay here. Cool. I'm going to stick around. I'm going to listen to the rest of this. I was hoping that you would. Yeah. It makes it.

Starting point is 00:17:25 You drew me in. It makes the show a little easier. It does. Yeah. So the investigators believed that gasoline or some kind of accelerant must have been doused not only all over Mary in the inside of the car, but around the car too, because the fire had spread like pretty widely around the car. Like there was like trees that were singed by all of this. It was intense. And again, it was burning for at least seven hours. So that's intense.

Starting point is 00:17:51 So they think that it was gasoline originally. In some sources, I saw that some people believed horse manure may have been actually used as the accelerant. Okay. That's something you can make like explosives out of. Okay, so I found that interesting because you don't hear that every day. And because, too, Mary loved to ride horses and was said to have used horse manure to plant her rose garden. So horse manure was like kind of like a material that was involved in her life. Yeah, for sure. It seems to me when I was like first reading it, like one of those weird things that people just add to a story like the further like, you know. Yeah, that's like a nasty game of telephone that just things get added. Exactly. Exactly. So I wanted to look further

Starting point is 00:18:33 into it to see if horse manure is even somewhat common to be used as an accelerant. And it turns out that it is. Spoiler alert Elena. Sorry. No, it's totally fine. People use dried horse manure and form it into bricks and then they can use it as heating fuel. And apparently it has a higher heating value than seasoned hard wood. Yeah. And I guess the odor just like goes away. Yeah, I don't know how that works, but it takes like a couple weeks, but eventually it just kind of like goes away. It just dissipates, I guess. Yeah. Because if you think about it, like, if you, when you, smell something, it's because you're getting particles of it inside of your nose. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:06 So eventually, the particles go away anymore. That does make sense. Yeah. So if that was the case and it was used to start the fire that killed Mary, at first I was thinking that would be mentioned more by detectives involved in the case. Yeah. But I also could see it being one of those major pieces of evidence because you don't hear about a fire being started using horse manure.

Starting point is 00:19:29 A thing that would separate the real killer from the, some, claiming that they were part of it. I thought, you know, maybe they were keeping this close to the chest because how many killers would know that that was involved. Of course. Exactly. Yeah. But I finally saw in the Baytown Sun's report on these murders that the FBI had lab work

Starting point is 00:19:47 done and it was ruled out that any kind of special accelerant was used, meaning that it must have just been gasoline. Oh, okay. But what a truly wild ride that was to go on. I was just going to say, the fact that we just went down that horse manure road is like a real testament to this case. Yeah, truly. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:03 So what investigators did say about Mary's murder was this. Quote, whoever did this took a great deal of time to seclude her in that area. If you get someone out for drug money, he may kill her and try to wipe off the prince. But someone went to the trouble to make sure there was absolutely no evidence left. Yeah, that's the thing. This is like a real professional here. Right. Now, when they say whoever did this took a great deal of time, that is like somehow an understatement.

Starting point is 00:20:29 Because this person, according to the Baytown son, would have had to be. drive down two different roads, stopped and got out of the car to open a gate, which led them into the Harris County Drainage District property, and then drive 300 to 600 feet through the grass, and then park the Lumina in a pipeline ditch where it was ultimately found. Wow. And it's like they must have known that something was out there, that they could do that. They must have known that there was some kind of clearing. But also, this is happening in the middle of the morning. Yeah. And there are houses lining the roads along some of that route. So Mary's daughter, Marilyn, was just shocked that nobody had seen anything suspicious.

Starting point is 00:21:09 Like, nobody had seen somebody driving a car with like a woman in the back looking terrified or, you know, seen somebody pull onto that road and drive through the grass. Well, that's the thing that you drove through the grass. So it's like, and this is a residential area. It's like, I don't know about you, but I see everything that happens in my neighborhood. Absolutely. Somebody weird drives through my neighborhood and I'm immediately like, what's happening with that I'm going to find out everything I can about that person. Even if they're like turning around,

Starting point is 00:21:35 I'm like, yeah, what are you doing? Right. And the part where, like, the area where, like, the area ultimately ended up being found was like secluded. Yeah. But the way to that area was residential. You would see that car going in there and knowing that that car is going to a secluded area. Exactly. What the fuck is it doing? Right. I just wanted to like make sure that everybody would be like that part of it. So weird. So we can get more into theories about what happened to Mary Lou a little later because before we get into that, I have to tell you about another murder. Now, this murder was the one that the coroner's office had referenced when they spoke with Mary Lou's daughter, Marilyn, in the beginning of this all. That little oopsie. Yeah, big oopsie. They were confused,

Starting point is 00:22:15 and they thought that Marilyn was calling about Mary McGinnis Morris, who had not been yet laid to rest. Mary McGinnis Morris was killed the day before Mary Lou Henderson Morris was laid to rest. Oh, okay. Yeah, and she was actually discovered the same day that her, that, that, that, Mary Lou Henderson Morris's funeral happened. Whoa. This is a lot. It is truly something. What is happening? So Mary McGinnis Morris had moved to Texas sometime around 1998 for work. She and her husband Mike Morris had been married for about 17 years. They had a daughter together named Katie and they were originally from West Virginia, but they made their way out to Texas when Mary got a job offer out here. By 2000, Mary was 39 years old and she was working as a nurse

Starting point is 00:23:00 practitioner. She actually ran a couple of different clinics in the area for Union Carbide in Houston, Texas. She also liked to act in like the local plays. And I guess she was a really good actress. A sespian. A thespian. Her sister Stephanie said that Mary, quote, lived life to the fullest. She was just very outgoing, very bubbly. She had a lot of friends and she was like really respected in her workplace. But her life did have its fair share of stressors, especially around the time that she died. Because one of the main stressors in her life was her marriage. Mike still hadn't found a job since they had moved out to Texas, and I think those money issues were definitely putting strain on the marriage. And then to add on to that strain, Mike believed that Mary was being unfaithful.

Starting point is 00:23:45 Oh. Yes. He had actually recently confronted her and the man who he thought that she was cheating with, but they both told him that he was wrong and that they were not together. And he said that he believed them and that around the time that Mary died, they were, quote, back at the point of being best friends. Okay, okay. Some people beg to differ. Mary's own sister said that Mary had told her she wasn't necessarily in love with Mike anymore and that she had met someone else and fallen in love with them. She told her sister that she didn't have plans to leave Mike, but Stephanie believed that after Mike and Mary had gone to like three or four different marriage counselors, that her sister was pretty close to the point of asking for a divorce. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, so this marriage is on the

Starting point is 00:24:30 rocks. Yeah, not great. Now, the stress was not only at home for Mary, but it was at work, too. Now, obviously, a lot of stress comes along with working in the healthcare field, especially these days, but there was more to it than that, because recently Mary had been having trouble with a coworker, Dwayne Young. She had told multiple people in her life that he made her uncomfortable, and she had even talked to the HR department at work about him. They had like different little interactions that just made her nervous and she just wanted them documented. Okay. Now, there's not a lot of information about their work relationship, but from the accounts that I read, it seems that the higher ups in the company were on Mary's side of things and that disciplinary action had been taken

Starting point is 00:25:14 against Dwayne. Oh, okay. Now, many sources related to this case suggest that he was fired just two days before Mary McGuinness Morris was murdered. But Dwayne himself back in the day was really active on a lot of online forms and he's made a lot of different claims saying either that he was not fired or that his position just came to a natural end. Okay. Yeah. So the sources that I read associated with this case said that Dwayne was fired or let go after a pretty intense incident went down at work. It gets a little confusing between the different sources because they all have like a little extra detail here there. Yeah. But the gist of the story is that Dwayne and Mary had been having problems for quite some time at work and that one day Mary went back to her desk and found that all of her photos that she had

Starting point is 00:26:02 on her desk were facing the opposite way, like turned around. And then she found a note either on her desk or on his desk calendar that said death to her. Oh. And she obviously assumed that meant her if it was on her desk and because if it was on his desk just based on all the issues that they were having. Oh, that's ominous as hell. Ominous as hell. So Mary went to report this incident to HR and they already have like a long list of all this other stuff. And they told her, you know what, we're going to deal with this on this specific day and you shouldn't come into work because we're going to go ahead and let him go at this point. Okay. Like we can't keep dealing with this. So when they did let him go, it is widely reported that he had to be escorted out of the building, but that he came to. He

Starting point is 00:26:46 back and started banging on the doors and windows demanding to see Mary or at least speak with her. Oh, that's really scary. So he denies those claims and he says that the banging on the doors and the windows never happened. Okay. But it's reported literally everywhere. Okay. And the events were said to take place just two days before she was murdered. Eek.

Starting point is 00:27:07 Yes. So around that time and allegedly because of all the issues going on at work with Dwayne, Mary went home to her husband, Mike, one day and told him that she wanted to learn how to shoot a gun. And she wanted to carry one for protection because she was just nervous. Yeah, I would be. Especially, I mean, she finds a note that says death to her and she thinks it's about her. Yeah, I would want to carry something. Absolutely. So Mike taught her how to shoot. He gave her a gun that was registered in his name and he told her to keep it under the driver's seat in her car for easy access should she need it. Unfortunately, Mary would not have the chance to protect herself with that gun.

Starting point is 00:27:42 And chillingly enough, that would be the same gun that would kill her. Oh. So on the morning of October 15, 2000, Mary had a pretty typical day. She went into one of the clinics that she worked at. She had a morning full of patients to attend to. One of those patients actually was her best friend at the time, Lori Gemmel. And Lori went into the clinic at some point to get her flu shot. And while Mary was getting the shot together and everything, they were kind of just talking about their plans for the rest of the day.

Starting point is 00:28:10 Yeah. According to Lori, Mary mentioned that she had to finish out some work for the day. a couple of things left to do at the clinic. She had a couple errands to run, and then she was going to go home and make dinner for Mike and Katie. Okay. Pretty typical day. Very typical day.

Starting point is 00:28:23 Yeah. That would be the last time that Lori would see Mary in person, but not the last time she would hear from her. Around 5.30 that same night, Mary called Lori while she was at a drug store called Eckerds. It was like really nearby. And while they were on the phone, Mary mentioned that there was a man in the store who was creeping her out.

Starting point is 00:28:43 And Lori later recalled that Mary said she recognized the man as someone who she had actually met before through Dwayne Young. Oh. She said she was going to try to finish up there quickly and that she actually had to run back to the clinic because she hadn't turned off her computer, like hadn't logged out of it. So she was going to finish up there, run to the clinic, turn off the computer and just head straight home because she was freaked out. She was like, I'm done shopping now. Yeah. So they wrapped up the conversation. And just 12 minutes later, Mary was.

Starting point is 00:29:13 be on her cell phone again, this time calling 911. She was in the middle of being kidnapped and brutally attacked. The 911 call has never been released, and Wayne Coleman from the Harris County Sheriff's Department said that it never will be released. Oh, is it that like harrowing? His direct quote was, we're not releasing the content of the tape. It covers the attack that happened to Mary, and anybody that's ever heard that tape had just had their blood chilled listening to it.

Starting point is 00:29:40 It's a very chilling and disturbing call. I can't imagine. If they're not releasing it or the contents of it, that must be a truly, truly harrowing call. And you have to imagine that it probably has like the last moments of her life on the phone call. Yeah. So Mary's body wasn't found until the next day, actually, and she was discovered by a tow truck driver. She was found in a remote area inside of her car, just like Mary Morris, who had been murdered just days before her. Huh.

Starting point is 00:30:10 This crime scene was much different, though. Mary McGinnis Morris's car was a dodge intrepid, and it was not found on fire. But Mary was found in her own car and had been shot once in the head. And the gun that she had asked her husband to provide for protection had been the one to fatally shoot her. Wow. Now it was sitting on the passenger seat. Now the scene may have looked to some people like it was suicide, like if you were a rookie or something, just stepping on this scene. But the trained officers who responded knew that they had a lot more on their hands than that. because the passenger door was left wide open and had some amount of blood on it.

Starting point is 00:30:47 The keys to the car were dropped somewhere outside of the vehicle. And not only did the scene tell them that there was more to this, but so did the body. Because Mary had clearly been beaten. When they arrived, there were fresh bruises on her wrists, and her clothing was actually torn in some places. Geez. Now, later on, they were also able to determine that she had been gagged at some point during this attack, because they found clothing fibers inside of her mouth. My God.

Starting point is 00:31:15 And just like Mary Lou Henderson Morris, Mary McGinnis Morris's wedding ring was also missing. Wow. So we have two women. Same name. Same name found in similar, not similar conditions, but found in remote areas, in their cars, and both have their wedding rings missing within days of each other. Yeah, that's weird. Really fucking weird.

Starting point is 00:31:39 That's weird. in the same city, Houston. So immediately they want to talk to Mike Morris, especially once they heard that the marriage was even slightly strained. Mike had an alibi. He told the investigators that he and his daughter, Katie, were actually at the movies together. And actually, he had called Mary around 7.11 that night.

Starting point is 00:31:57 But she didn't answer and that the call kept ringing, so eventually he hung up. He gave the police a DNA sample, but I do not believe he gave them fingerprints. And he refused to do a polygraph test. and he also would not let them talk to Katie, who I think was a teenager at this time, so it was still a minor and they would have to have his permission. I was going to say they need his consent.

Starting point is 00:32:17 So he would not let them talk to Katie. Now, some people found it odd, too, when he lawyered up right away. But you can't necessarily judge that in a case like this because you pretty much do need a lawyer. Yeah, like everyone tells you to. Exactly. So when the investigators looked into Mary and Mike's phone records, they did see the call that he mentioned. But the phone records showed that. that the phones had actually connected and that the call had lasted for four minutes.

Starting point is 00:32:44 Oh. Mary McGinnis had definitely already been murdered by that point in time, though, so there was no way that Mike had spoken with her. Huh. He said that it must have been a glitch on part of the phone company, but I don't really know how often that happens. Not usually. I wouldn't say that's likely a common occurrence, but I'm not a phone technician.

Starting point is 00:33:08 I'm not a phone. So I am also not a phone. I'm not a phone, nor am I a phone technician. I am neither a phone nor a technician of phones. I thought you were going to say, I'm not a phone record. I am not a phone record either. I'm none of those things. I don't think they usually lie.

Starting point is 00:33:24 Like usually they're used as proof in cases like this. Yeah, I feel like phone records you can usually rely on. Yeah. So this phone record is saying the call connected and lasted four minutes. He basically said that it kept ringing and ringing. And I don't know if he's trying to say that the phone rang for four minutes and he sat around and waited. Yeah. But it just kept ringing and ringing and ringing.

Starting point is 00:33:45 Yeah. Weird. Yeah, that's definitely strange. Yeah. So people started to wonder, did he call and speak with somebody else for four minutes? Oh. Maybe somebody who was supposed to do something for him. Eek.

Starting point is 00:33:59 So rumors started to fly around Houston when people realized that two women with the same name were killed in somewhat similar situation. and that the murders were just four days apart. Like, what are the odds? This is, this just isn't coincidence. There's no fucking way. Yeah. So people started speculating based on the details that they heard from each case, specifically how both women's wedding rings were missing.

Starting point is 00:34:23 That was something that people were like really hooked on. Because it's so specific. It's so specific. I was going to say Pacific. So Pacific. It's so Pacific. Now, this is something, I don't know if you knew this and I didn't know this, but this is something that tends to happen in situations when a hit-making.

Starting point is 00:34:38 is hired. Oh, okay. The hitman will take the woman's redding ring back to, no, he'll take it back to the husband to show that he killed this woman. Yeah. And the job is done. Oh, that's horrific. It's horrible. But wow. Yes. So people got the idea in their head that maybe this situation was a hit gone wrong. It seemed to them that maybe a hitman had been hired to kill Mary McGinnis Morris and that somehow this was the worst hitman of all time and he had somehow killed the wrong woman. Oh.

Starting point is 00:35:10 A woman who lived like 45 minutes away with the same name. Okay. Now they thought that when the hitman and the person who hired the hit realized that the wrong woman had been killed, they only had a short amount of time to off the intended target Mary McGinnis Morris. Okay. Now this theory does seem kind of far-fetched, but I'm not going to say that it's the worst theory in the world. I don't think it's a terrible theory. Because supporting evidence, the two.

Starting point is 00:35:36 two women did bear some resemblance to each other. I looked at pictures because I had to see. They have very similar hair. Very similar hair. Kind of similar eyes, if you ask me. I could see where somebody might get them confused from a distance. If they have a very general description of these two women, and they have the same name, and I think you could easily confuse them.

Starting point is 00:35:57 Now, the other thing is, I mentioned the cars that these women drove. Yeah. A 2000 Dodge Intrepid, and I'm not sure what year Mary Chevy Lumina was. But the models from that time do resemble each other. Okay. If you type in like 2000 Dodge Intrepid and Chevy Lumina, they look like a similar car. Yeah. So those are supporting evidence of, yeah, there could have been a hit man.

Starting point is 00:36:20 Yeah. I mean, the only thing that like really with that I'm like, ah, but again, if it's a bad hitman because he messed it up to begin with. Yeah. It's like, would you just go right away and do the intended one? Or would you put some space between those so that they're not sitting there? You're making a big splash with two women the same way and with the same name. Exactly. You make it a big splash there.

Starting point is 00:36:43 And you feel like you would put some distance and some time between those two things, maybe push off that intended hit a little bit. Yeah. Sounds terrible saying all that. No, it's true, though. Because I was just going to say there's a couple things in this case that give me pause about the hitman theory. The two crime scenes were about 25 miles away from each other. That's obviously not to say that hitman like don't travel.

Starting point is 00:37:03 But why would one get so confused that he went 20? 25 miles out of the way to kill a woman who he should have had a pretty good amount of information on if he had been hired to take out a hit on her. You would think. Now, the other big thing for me, and I'm sure for you, is the manner of death. Although the police couldn't determine exactly how Mary Lou died, they didn't find any casings at the scene to suggest that she had been shot like Mary McGinnis Morris had been. And it's strange to me that only one crime scene had arson involved and the other didn't. Yeah. Because I feel like if the same person committed both crimes, they would have set fires for both.

Starting point is 00:37:41 You would think so. The only thing I can think of is that Mary McGinnis was killed with the gun that she had. Yes. So maybe that was just like convenience. It was there. And also that could take away that. And maybe the arson thing, maybe because they got it wrong, they were like, well, can't do that again. Actually, that's probably like a supporting factor because people think that Mike is the person that hired this hit for.

Starting point is 00:38:05 his wife obviously. I'm not saying I believe that, but that's what people believe. That's a theory. That's a theory. And if that is the case, then he may have told this hitman, she has a gun. Yeah, just use that gun. Maybe he car, this hitman carjacked Mary Lou and realized she didn't have a gun. And then his prints are all over the car, yada, yada, yada, and he panicked. Maybe set the place on fire. I mean, it's a big jump, but. But I mean, this whole thing is crazy. This whole thing is nuts. I don't think there's anything completely out of the realm of possibility here. No. So people in Mary McGuinness Morris's life and Close Circle thought back to the co-worker who had made her so uncomfortable that he'd allegedly been fired.

Starting point is 00:38:46 They specifically thought back to the note that Mary had found the one that she thought was written about her that said death to her. Did this guy actually have it in him to kill her? So Dwayne Young, like I said, has maintained his innocence over the years and claimed that most of the stories surrounding him and Mary are untrue. Okay. He actually said that. the only time anything crappy happened between them was when he had to report her to hire ups in the company for doctoring some of her reports. Oh.

Starting point is 00:39:15 I couldn't find any evidence that that was the truth. But it's just like, that's what's being said. That's what's being said. Now, even after that, he said their relationship really didn't change that much. Like, they were still friendly with each other. And there was evidence that they had gone to like dinner parties with the same groups of people. Like they were in each other's circle.

Starting point is 00:39:32 Okay. But other people begged to differ about. their relationship. Lori Gemmel has said that Mary was absolutely certain that Dwayne was quote unquote capable of hurting her. Wow. Now over the years on different forums, Dwayne has pointed the finger back at Lori saying that she was the last person to talk to Mary and probably one of the last to see her alive and she lived only about five minutes from where Mary's body was found. This is all just like so convoluted. Yeah, it's so complex because it's like you have people being like, no, they were totally fine.

Starting point is 00:40:06 Like they were hung out at dinner parties. They were just like, whatever. Everything was cool. And then you have other people that were like, oh, no, she was 100% convinced he was going to hurt her. And it's like, whoa, where's the middle ground here? Like, there's no middle ground. That's the thing with this case. There's no middle ground. It just jumps from like he's either a perfectly fine coworker to he could probably

Starting point is 00:40:26 kill me. Like, which one is it? Or even just between the two murders. Like we go from one woman being shot in the head and another woman being like lit on fire in her car. Yeah, that's wild. It's a crazy intense case. So Dwayne not only pointed the finger at Mary's friend Lori, but also pointed the finger

Starting point is 00:40:43 at Mary's husband, Mike. And he has said that he's offered to talk to Mike to clear his name. And Mike doesn't want to talk to him. But it's like, if he thinks you murdered his wife, of course he doesn't want to talk to you. Yeah, there's a lot of things that are just like, well, you know, I get it a little bit. Now, in those online forums, which aren't like totally dependable, but it did seem in those forms like Mike may have gotten a restraining order to stop the calls from Dwayne. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:41:08 And that's based on claims that Dwayne is made. Okay. Now, other than showing deception on some polygraphs, the police really didn't have anything to connect Dwayne to either murder. All right. And hot dog in a trench coat. Yeah, 100%. And that's really all they ever did.

Starting point is 00:41:23 And to be honest, there's nothing, aside from, like, him being angry that he got fired, I'm like, there's not a lot of motive. I don't know. Like, and it's just, and it's not solid because it's like, some people are saying everything was fine. And then some people are like, oh, no. And it's like some people are saying he didn't get fired. Some people are saying he did. He's saying that he didn't get fired. Yeah, that one's that one's not solid to me. So the people who believed Mike had something to do with his wife's disappearance point to a life insurance policy, of course. I've seen it reported to be as much as a million, half a million, 700,000, 200,000. It's all over the place wherever you look. All right. But allegedly, he didn't even get that payout. It went to their daughter, Katie. Oh, okay. So that wipes that out of there.

Starting point is 00:42:09 Yeah. But something else that, interestingly enough, turned up in Katie's possession, was her mother's missing wedding ring. Yeah. So a friend of the family joined Katie and Mike for dinner one night after the murder and noticed that Katie had Mary's wedding ring on. And he asked Mike about it because it had been missing. Yeah. Mike said that he thought it was missing originally, but that Mary must not have been wearing. wearing it that day because he found it later on in the house. Oh. Which is just like it was a big deal that

Starting point is 00:42:38 like the wedding rings missing from both women were a really big deal in this case. And then all the sudden one of them just turns up and it's like, oh, I guess she just wasn't wearing it that day. Huh. Strange. Okay. So the friend did bring that information to the police, but they still don't really have much of anything to connect Mike to Mary's murder either. What can you do? So just when you thought we might be wrapping up here, I have a little bit more of a tidbit for this case. Because months after Mary Lou Henderson, Morris was killed, her husband Jay got a bill in the mail for about $2,000. Now, it was a phone bill associated with her phone card. Oh.

Starting point is 00:43:15 Yeah. When they tracked down the phone card, it took them to a teenage girl in Galveston, Texas, who said that she got the phone card from her neighbor. Okay. So when the police were able to talk with the neighbor, she told them that she had found the purse abandoned outside of a convenience store. and she gave the phone card to her neighbor and kept the bag for herself. Uh, not cool. Not cool at all. None of that is cool.

Starting point is 00:43:40 Not at all. What? The two were cleared of any connection to the murder, though. But the eerie thing to me is that the neighbor gave the purse back to the police so that Mary's family could have it. And when they got the purse back, none of Mary's family recognized it as being one of her purses. What?

Starting point is 00:43:58 So what was her phone card doing in a random person, Galveston, Texas, which is about an hour away from Houston. What? That's strange. I literally can't. And every single time it gets stranger, somehow it levels up again and then it gets even stranger. And it's like, was that purse belonging to a girlfriend of the person who did this or a friend and was given that card? But her purse was missing.

Starting point is 00:44:27 I know. I don't know. But it's also like, did her purse just burn to a crisp? Or did the person who did this take the purse, empty out the contents of what they thought was valuable? Take those things, just get rid of the purse. And then maybe gave it to someone they know that phone card and ended up in that purse. Maybe. But it's like, why was the purse abandoned outside of a store?

Starting point is 00:44:49 Like, it's so strange. What? This is all so weird. It's so weird. Now, for the eeriest thing of all, about five months after the murders, Jay Morris started getting calls at he and in Mary's house, and the caller was asking to speak with Mary. What was strange about that, other than the fact that everybody in the area knew that Mary was no longer living, was the fact that their phone number was not listed in the phone book.

Starting point is 00:45:14 This was a private line. Huh. So the caller seemed to be a man and would call later in the evening. The first time he called was around 10 p.m. The second time was around 12 a.m. And then for the last time at 9 p.m. Okay. Now, Jay had spoken to the police about the first two calls, and they gave him the number of a detective and told him that the next time he got a call from this number, he should say to the caller, oh, you can reach Mary at this number, but really it would be the number of a detective.

Starting point is 00:45:42 Oh, that's smart. Smart. So he did just that. The last call rolls in around nine, and the caller asks, as usual, to speak with Mary. Jay said, sure, she can be reached, and this number is her number. Here you go, yada, yada, yada. 8, 6753.09. Exactly. Now, he's not even done finishing, like rattling off the number, and the caller interrupts him as he's reading it and goes, yeah, sure, and hangs up. And that's the last time they ever called.

Starting point is 00:46:08 What? Yeah. What? The police were able to trace back the calls to a pay phone that was located in a nearby apartment complex, but they could never trace the calls back to a specific person. And after that last phone call, nobody called again. And to the. this day, nobody has no idea who committed either of these murders. Nobody has no idea. Nobody has no idea. That's how it's so stupid.

Starting point is 00:46:34 Nobody has any idea who did these murders. And as far as police are concerned, the two murders are not connected. Honey's, it's the same name. It's the same name. It's the same circumstances. It's the same everything. It was like almost the same day. Literally.

Starting point is 00:46:51 Harris County Detective Ronald Hunter said of these two cases and the strange similarities, quote, that was a big coincidence. But as far as we consider it right now, that is just what we consider it a coincidence. It's a bold strategy. Let's see if it works out for them. Sir what? Wow. How? Who? What? When? Where? Why? All the questions that were never answered in this case. I'm baffled. I have nothing. Nothing. Like that hit man thing sounds. sounds more plausible to me now. That's the thing. And that's the theory that most people go off of because it's like, what else is there?

Starting point is 00:47:34 The same name is just wild. Because it's not like there's a million Mary Morris is just running around. It's not like, I know Mary and Morris are like two names that I guess could be considered, like somewhat common. But together. And also it's like it's not like John Smith or something. You know, like it's not that common. No.

Starting point is 00:47:53 And in the same area? it's and I mean, Houston is a big area. Like that's important to point out. But it's like, these, these crime scenes were 25 miles away from each other. That's like a 45 minute drive. It's not that far, you know? And their cars looked so similar. I guess you could say that they looked pretty similar. Yeah. So that for me, I think the hitman theory is the strongest, but I don't necessarily love it because there's hole, there's plot holes in it for me. And like motive is lacking here. Yeah, that's the thing. There's a lot of like, what the fuck?

Starting point is 00:48:27 I guess the only motive if Mike had hired a hitman was to get the life insurance policy, but then people say he didn't even get it. But then it's like, did his daughter get it and give him some of it? But like he couldn't be sure of that. No. And then also, like Mary Lou was, she was killed like in the morning. Just like in the middle of the day. On her way to work, pretty much.

Starting point is 00:48:51 And it's like, that's bold for somebody to just do with. no planning. Absolutely. And even... So it feels like there was a plan in place there. Absolutely. And not only was Mary Lou killed in the middle of the day. I mean, Mary McGinnis there was killed like in the afternoon. I mean, I consider like 5.5.30 the afternoon. Yeah. These weren't like nighttime, you know, creepy people come out at night and start doing shady shit. It was like literally morning. Exactly. In afternoon. Right. So it just does, I don't know. It's just so bizarre to me. Wow.

Starting point is 00:49:25 And there's just like every time you think that you've reached a conclusion, which honestly, I don't even feel like you ever feel like you've reached a conclusion in this case. But anytime you think that you've gotten somewhere, you read something and you're like, well, no, no. That doesn't make any sense. Well, that just blew that up. Like, there's no way that works now. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:49:42 Yeah, I have no idea. I have absolutely. I really have no idea. I'm stumped. And I've truly never read a case like this before. No. I've never actually like at the end of one been like, yeah, I literally. have no idea what happened here. Nothing. The hitman thing is the only thing I can think of.

Starting point is 00:50:00 That's the thing that most people think of, but even that, like I said, bottles. Yeah, and it's like it just, I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know, guys. I don't know. Wow. Thank you for that. You're welcome. Oie. Well, as usual, we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that like any of this happens because this is a really stressful case and it stressed me out. And it's sad. And it's really, missusiness. sad. Thank you.

Morbid - The Kidnapping of Barbara Jane Mackle

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