Morbid - The Last Call Killer (Part 1)

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

Between 1991 and 1993, the dismembered bodies of five gay and bisexual men were discovered in garbage bags along the highway in New York and New Jersey. The cause of the death for each was multiple stab wounds, and each victim had been disarticulated into eight pieces and placed in eight garbage bags before being deposited into trash barrels, where they were quickly discovered by a curious member of the public.Despite being discovered in different locations in different states, it didn’t take long for investigators to identify the similarities between the victims. They were all older men, single or separated, and all had been seen last around closing time at various New York gay bars. Moreover, the scant evidence found with each body appeared to connect the murders back to Staten Island, but told detectives nothing else about the killer. Then, in late 1993, the murders simply stopped and the case went cold.The case of the man the press dubbed “The Last Call Killer” sat on a shelf for nearly a decade before a team of cold case investigators picked it up again, determined to make progress. In the years that passed, advances in technology had allowed for the collection of previously unseen evidence, and it was thanks to that technology that the case was finally solved.Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesBen-Ali, Russell, and William Rashbaum. 1993. "Grisly slayings linked?" Newsday, August 3: 4.—. 1993. "Hunt is on." Newsday, August 5: 6.Curran, John. 2006. "Ex-UM student given life sentences in slayings." Bangor Daily News, January 28: 25.Frederick, Henry. 1993. "Body parts found in Haverstraw." Journal News (White Plains, NY), August 1: 1.Green, Elon. 2021. Last Call: A True Story of Love, Lust, and Murder in Queer New York. New York, NY: Celadon Books.Hoober, John. 1991. "Turnpike murder victim was ex-banker." Lancaster New Era, May 15: 1.Lueck, Thomas. 2001. "Complicated portrait of a suspect in killings of gay men." New York Times, May 31.New York Times. 1993. "Thomas Mulcahy: Sales executive, devoted husband." New York Times, August 8: 40.Peet, Judy. 2000. "Technology revives search for gays' serial killer." Staten Island Advance, April 24: 15.Rashbaum, William. 1993. "Gay stalker?" Newsday, August 4: 5.Rosenblatt, Lionel. 1973. "Jury finds student not guilty." Bangor Daily News, November 4: 1.State of New Jersey v. Richard W. Rogers. 2008. 03-01-00050 (Superior Court of New Jersey, April 16).Walsh, James. 1993. "Tracking a killer." Journal News (White Plains, NY), October 24:  Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. I'm Sabrina. And I'm Corinne. And this is morbid. Slash two girls, one ghost. Woo! Part two of the collab. You might have come over here from Two Girls One Ghost, actually. I hope you did. Welcome. We hope so too. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Our lighting is changed. No one will be able to see it. It's true. The mood lighting. We're still in a bank fault. Yeah. But, yes, we've got some spooky green lighting, which is awesome. It feels very. It feels very, like Disney, Ursula, evil, swampy.

I like it. I like it. Elena did ask for black. Which would have been a whole vibe. A black leg. What color do you want the lights? Black. I was like, I see a lot black.

Like my soul. That would actually be so creepy to sit in total darkness where we cannot see each other. Yeah. I understand like that. Especially with our stories too that we're telling. Yeah. My brother and I in our very haunted house in Vermont, we would play this game with each other where we would put a fog machine on. in the basement and then we would put one of those flashing like strobe lights on but the really

slow shutter so go like flash and then it would a few beats would go and then flash but we'd walk around this makes so much sense sometimes we'd be like right next to each other and we'd be like and the light comes on or it was all it's so spooky that's amazing that's like so much fun that's inunds childhood every time she talks about it I just imagine there was like a witches brew and cauldron on the stove at all times I want that to be my childhood that they had like feathered and abalonean shells and sage everywhere. They're cleansing the home. It was pretty much like that.

Yeah, it was cool. It was very close. That's amazing. And that's so innovative of you guys. Yeah, thank you. The thing you do to entertain yourself. Yeah, like me and my friends used to play a thing called dangerous hide and seek. Wait, what?

Yeah. It sounds way worse. Not as cool as that at all. And definitely like way less high tech than that. But more dangerous? But way more dangerous. Somehow. This was, we would do dangerous hide and seek where she had like stairs going down to the other part of her house where all the bedrooms were.

And it was like this long hallway where the bedrooms were all lined on one side. And then on the left side there was like storage areas, like closets and shelving. And we would turn off all the lights down there because if you turn them off, there was no windows in the hallway. Oh my gosh. And then pitch black. And then one person would leave obstacles for the other person and then hide. So so fun. So the other person had to go through in the pitch black.

My God. Trying to locate where you were. Literally. Come alone. Right. No one broke a bone. That's amazing. Truly iconic.

Were any parents present? Or is this, you know, like the classic. The 80s. I was going to be a lot of, like, 80s, 90s upbringing. You just do whatever. This was like late 90s, I would say, early 2000s. So it was like, but still, that was about that time. Everybody was working.

Yeah. We were just home, we were just home, plain, dangerous hindsight. Let's bring that back. Let's do like a podcast retreat where we just have all. all of our podcast friends come together and we like rent out some spooky mansions. It would play hide and seek. Dangerous hide and seek. We play that strobe like.

Yeah. Sog machine hide and seek. Can I add, okay, this is the game that we used to play. Before Princess Diaries did it and they also did it like the cool way where you mattress surfed with like the slide. But we would do it on stairwells. And my one friend had like a marble floor at the bottom of the stairwell. And the amount of times that I would like jam my jaw into the.

the ground, but then like, do it again. Oh, let's go. It's like, that was a lot. Shock, you don't lose a tooth. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. We were dangerous kids, spooky kids.

Clearly, we're a very spooky kids. Yeah. We all survived. We did. I didn't play a lot of games. I was trying to think of like a game to come up with and I just couldn't think of one. Ash was just getting into trouble. Getting in trouble?

Yeah, I was. Just being reckless. I mean, yeah. I did a lot of solo of things. My go-to was when I was like angry and I were upset and I was upset a lot because I still am very sensitive human. I would go into my basement and play guitar hero by myself and cry. Oh my God. Just like pinkies like reaching for that far left yellow by and like balling your eyes out. Yeah. I used to write really emotional poems and then I would leave

them in the bathroom for my mom to find. I'd be like, I'm the saddest. But like they're, but I like try to be super creative. But you wanted her to find them? Oh yeah. I mean I was like eight and I was like, I feel like a bottle like about to burst, eruption with emotions. I mean, you were like the original Katie Perry. Do you ever feel like your paperbag? Oh, yeah. No, I was, yeah, but. Like, I often did.

Often. And I was like, yeah, everyone needs to know. It's because I was born first, right? Right. I made all the attention. I need everyone to take care of me. Yeah, of course. Immediately.

I used to just blast Lincoln Park or simple plan. Oh, hell. Yes. Those are my go-to. Yeah. I love that. I always knew if I came to Mom and Papa's house and I heard that, that like you'd gotten like something happened yeah and then I would run up there and be like

what's going on tell me everything something truly ridiculous oh yeah yeah yeah that's incredible but simple plan understood oh of course also I've been to I have eight weddings that I've attended this year but I will say one of the best parts of attending weddings is everyone has that like emo angst kid coming out of them and there's always one or two songs that, yeah, Mr. Brightside. Oh, yeah. Or like, got my life into. Oh, my God. Oh, man. Oh, man. Yeah, air guitar. I am, yes. I am feral at weddings. We were at a wedding recently that the DJ took a video of all of us because they were so shocked by how many people got on the dance for during like emo punk songs. I love

Oh, yeah. It gets the crowd going. It does. It does. Yeah, you got to have a little bit of you in there. Yeah, you do. Drew wants to play the black parade at our wedding. And, and I was very against you at first. And I'm like, let's do it. You should. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I think we'll do that. You really love to. You do. Wait, oh my gosh, I have to tell you guys. So obviously I live in Boston nearby you guys. But I was in Hub Hall, which is over by TD Garden. It's this like food hall place. And there's every single area of it, like all the different little restaurants have music and whatnot playing. So sometimes it's a little overstimulating. But I was hearing these voices coming from this one. And I was like, who are these people? I can't. I know I know them. But it was hard to like pick out exactly the people's voices against the music. So I walked up and I said, what podcast are you listening to?

And they said, morbid. Oh, shit. Thank you people there. That's so fun. That's so cool. Yeah, I know. I feel like someone risked their job to be blasting. 100% absolutely.

Absolutely. That's loyalty. Yeah. I'm here for that. I know these people who, what are you listening to? And he was like, morbid, morbid. I love it. That's always so wild to me still.

That's a loyal fan. That is. We're like four years in almost like we're getting on five here. I think we're heading towards five. Yeah. And it's still wild to me. I know. Yeah. It's never going to get normal.

No. No. I hope it doesn't. I feel like that's what you know you're doing it wrong if it gets normal. Yeah. Well, I think part of the beauty of being a podcast or two is like you still pretty much get to live your life and like you record from home and stuff. So it's not like we're going on red carpets with Zendaya.

Exactly. I would love going over a podcast. Maybe one day. Podcasts are going to be as popular as TV. We're going to be the camaraderie taking photos of you guys. Ashah! And I'll be hiding in my house in my sweatpants. I know.

We recently started doing a YouTube version of our podcast and we're like, oh my gosh, that means we put on real clothes. But now I do the thing where I'm wearing like sweatpants and bag of things and you only see like, oh, the news canoaster. Yeah. Exactly. Like I'm basically in mind to wear. Yeah.

Anytime I have an important Zoom. I am newscastering. Yeah. Like I am always 1,000% year down and I'm like, yes,

I'm just presentable for literally huge. Yes, that's all that matters. Yeah. When I was still working in an office, it was like the height of the pandemic and we had an online virtual holiday party and I surprised everybody with a game

and I was like, we're going to play a game where, because everyone was dressed up, you know, like sequence and everything on the top. So I was like, we're going to play a game where everybody guesses

what people have on the bottom and you have to stand up and reveal. Yeah. Expose yourself. It was so fun. It was like, expose yourself. It was the best time.

Everybody was cracking out. That's about it. That's funny. Actually, at that place that I had worked at, I had a co-worker who literally found out that her apartment was haunted by having a Zoom call with an external partner that was like, oh, is someone else. Like, who just peeked into the room? Oh, my God. I'm alone.

I am moving out. Yeah. A guy walked by behind her, like in the doorwell and like peek in. And they keep in. That is so creepy. My God. I would ship myself. I'd be like, are you recording the Zoom?

Right? It's so scary. I don't know if I'd want to see that. No, I keep picturing it and I don't like what I'm picturing. Yeah. It's making me think of like signs when the alien walks by the alley. Yeah. The scariest thing ever.

That's all I can think of. Every time I look at the bottom of a door crack, I always think about the knife going under and seeing the reflection. Signs fucked up. That was a scary movie. It was a scary movie. I've never seen it, but I've seen that one scene with the alien. And I don't. M Night Shyamont.

It's just, shh. He goes out. And that was in his prime. Right. Scarring all of us. A little weird. Which one is it? I forget what it's called.

Is that the cannibal one? Is it a cannibal one? No, what's the Timothy Shalamey one? You think it's like this beautiful lesbian love story and then she starts to bite the person's finger off. Oh, wait. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Is that? Is it? I don't know. I don't know if it is. But I feel like I watched that. Emma let us know. Yeah. At night right in.

Reach out to us. Yeah. I know you're listening right now. They just got weirder and weirder, though. Like, I heard old was really strange. I watched old, yeah. Did you like it? I don't want to.

Play the M. Night. Yeah. Skip ahead. Earmuffs, Mnight. Yeah. I liked it and I think this story, like it had, I really love the story. Mm-hmm. The execution, not so much.

Yeah. Okay, fair. I mean, the village is a classic. Oh, so good. We were just talking about the village. Split, I loved. Split. Yeah.

Oh, see, split. I loved right up until the very end. Okay. And then I was like, is this the same movie? You know what I mean? Because it was a little, yeah, superhuman. Yeah.

And I'm, yeah, right. Yeah, right. I'm not a superhero girlie. Right. But you know, I'm night. I'm night. He's got it. Yeah.

He's got it. A new movie. I also love that M night like stars or like not stars like has like little for himself. And I think that's such a cool. If I ever make my own show, which one day, hopefully. But I'll do that for us. I want to be a dead body.

My goal. Like, I want to play a dead body in a show. And I want to wheel your gurney. Okay. Yeah. You should put yourself in your show. I didn't make a cameo. You have to.

I don't know where I would be in there. I don't know. You go into the bars or something. Yeah. Do like the Stephanie Meyer and do like, wasn't she in like the breakfast? Yeah. I think she was sitting on her laptop. Yeah.

Just do that. Like a little Easter egg. Yeah. And then your documents titled Season 2. Season 2. Yeah. It would be cool. I love that.

That's a good idea. Yeah, people will totally pause and like zoom in. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Start a conspiracy. Yeah. A nugget of an idea. I like it.

Just a little nibble. Just a little crumb. Yeah. It's a little crumb to nibble on. There's a tab where you're listening to two girls, one ghost. Oh, there we go. We brought it full. When Sabrina was working on the show Blind Spot, we had our mug.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Marri and Garo, who's a show owner of Blind Spot, was like, so nice. And I was an assistant at the time. And he was like, I tried. I truly just got a text from him and he was like, hey, like, going to put a two girls one go smoke on the show, just send it over to the set. And I was like, and this was like year one of our podcast. Yeah. We're famous. Oh my God. I love that. I love that. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. It's so cool. It's so cool. It did feel really special. Oh, yeah. That is special. It did feel really special. Oh, yeah. That was a huge show. Yeah. So many people saw. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool.

We actually had someone email us saying because the character rich.com was holding it. And someone emailed us saying that they found our show because they saw the mug that Rich was holding and they had to look up what it was. Oh yeah. There you go. Because you hear the name you have to know. Yeah, two girls one ghost. It's like, what is this? What kind of porn is this?

My favorite thing is when people ask the name of the podcast, I, maybe I have a list. I don't know. Sometimes I say like it sounds like I say two girls, one goat. Which is weird. What's really not what I'm trying to do. People are searching that like, should I search this? Or people do you search it and they're like, what did I just find? What are you guys doing?

You're like, that's not enough. Yeah, that's not nice. I had told my parents because I wanted them to be on the inside of the joke of our podcast. I didn't want them to be surprised if someone like said something and them not get it. So I told my parents in the gentlest way possible. I guess not gentle enough. My dad blocked it out of his memory. And then a couple of years ago when we had a live show here in Boston, my dad, forgetting what the podcast name was an innuendo of, basically, puts his arm around both me and Sabrina because he's super proud of us and wants a photo.

And he goes, two girls, one dad. And I go, no, no. I'm obsessed. Absolutely not. And if you met Bill, it just, it also makes so much sense. He's like the most innocent, like bleeding part of the family. I was talking of everyone. I was like, what?

And he's just so proud. I had to retell him because he blocked it out of the mouth. So you were traumatized twice. You were traumatized twice. You were traumatized like thrice in that situation. Oh, my God. I'm like, no child should have to say this to their parent.

No parents should say that to their child. I tell you. And he's just so proud. I know. Poor guy. He'll never make that mistake again. No. No.

That's my favorite. It's, it all comes around. Like, your parents are the reason that you're haunted. So, like, they traumatized you a little bit. And your parents are the reason you're haunted. So Sabrina's dad has found. I mean, you're, you're, you're childhood. Yeah, wait, what did your parents do?

Bring us some ghosties. Ghost stories. Do you want to start sprina? I feel like, okay. I'll share, like, a nice one from my house. But yours is, like, scary one. Because you guys should know. I started listening to your podcast before we even, like, got off the ground.

Oh, way. Like, I was like a end of your podcast. I really recommend. it's everybody. I was like, hell yes. You're the top of our pyramid our pyramid scheme.

We have a pyramid scheme. That's me. You're the top of the tip. I love it. You're the tip. Just the tip. I'm just the tip. We'll get you with trophy.

It'll just be like, no, I don't know how much I can say. I was going to say like a golden dildo. I was like, you say whatever you want. I say wild shit on this dog. It's a ghost. It's a goat. It's a goat. It's a goat.

It's a live one. Yeah. I'm ready for it. Some people gift Thanksgiving turkeys. Other people gifts. Ghosts. Where'd the ghost? Yeah, you want to know what a hush turkey is.

You listen to part one over on two girls. Yeah, there we go. See, the nice like callback. We're connecting them together. We're pros here. We're crum trail. Yeah, just the crumb. But yeah, bring us some ghost stories.

What you got? Well, just as like some context. So my dad is very in tune with spirits. Like has so many encounters. He was born and grew up in Pakistan and like just has, they have like, a lot of like spooky stuff over there. My mom likes to say that he battles with a demon because he speaks another language. They're divorced.

This is why she likes to say it. That she, he like would speak another language in his sleep. And he's done past life regression therapy, the hypnosis, and has been told that past life is like trying to take over his current life. What? Yeah. Well, and his new partner has also confirmed. Confirmed.

Yeah. That he still does this. This is still happening to. Yeah. So it's still trying to take. Takeover. Yeah. Wow. Yes. So he's kind of like always growing up. He was always one experiencing things. But when I was like four years old, we moved into a new house and this is, I don't live there now so I can say it, Branchburg, New Jersey. It was a brand new house, farmland, you know, first people to live in it. And I started having this reoccurring nightmare. Ooh. And my sister was six at the time. So it was just the four of us. And in my nightmare, I would always wake up the way that I had gone to sleep. So St. pajamas, my room was as it was, and I'd wake up and I'd see this, like, figure in the doorway, and I had the feeling that I had to follow it. So I would follow it down the hallway to my sister's

room. And when I'd get to my sister's room, I'd see these black and white orbs fighting over her, like diving down, fighting into her. And I would wake up in this moment. But I had it for a couple of years, and it would always leave me super unsettled and scared. And eventually it just stopped. Fast forward to, I'm like, and we had a bunch of hauntings in this house, like my brother would wake up, crying saying tell the little boy I don't want to play. So we knew the house was haunted. Nightmare. Yeah. Oh yeah. Hate that. But fast forward to like 20 years later, I'm graduating college and I'm telling my family, my dad, my sister brother about recurring nightmares. And I mentioned this one. We're about to leave dinner. My dad looks at me and goes, that didn't, that wasn't a nightmare.

It happened in real life. And I was like, excuse me? Like what? Like you have to tell me. Glass shatter. So he goes on to tell me that when we first moved into that house, so around the time these nightmares started, he had fallen asleep on the couch watching TV and woke up to a really loud noise. And so he wakes up, he thinks maybe it was just the TV, turns it off, starts locking the doors.

It's late at night. Locking the doors, make sure windows are closed. And the second he starts walking up the stairs, he just got that feeling that someone was in the house. And he goes up the stairs, checks on me, I'm asleep, my mom was asleep. And he starts walking down the hallway, and the closer he got to my sister's room,

the more dread filled his whole body. I have chills right now. He reaches the door handle and it's ice cold. He opens the door and all of the air is sucked out of the room. And it is just like, he was like every instinct is telling him to run, but his daughter is sleeping. Yeah, you have to go more as a parent. Elaine, I hope this never happens to you.

I know. I hope not. Oh, my God. I'm never coming over again if it does. So we're going to need a new podcast room. So he takes a step towards my sister and she's laying a bed asleep, eyes closed, and her mouth opens. And out of her mouth comes a deep guttural voice saying, get out. Oh, stop it.

My whole body just like, it's horrifying. I am a goose bump. I know. This lighting, also I've never told this story in this lighting. I know. I'm scared by it too. Spooky green lights. Oh, my God.

So he, you know. He was like, no. Yeah, like I'm actually going to face you. I'm your dad. Yeah, he comes up to my sister, like shakes her and is like, leave my daughter alone. My sister wakes up. He picks her up, turns around, and I am standing in the doorway. And he thought I was awake, but apparently it must have been sleepwalking or like whatever it was.

Some sort of trance. Yeah. I don't know. Not possessed me, but like I was following this entity, right? Like the dream that I was having, I was following it and seeing like my dad fighting. whatever darkness is in my sister. If your dad hadn't entered, though, I wonder if you were being led into the room to help her. Or to just also succumb to this.

Oh, oh, no. And then it would go and get your brother and then, like, all the kids in one room to basically be possessed. That thing was trying to take over your dad's life. So maybe he was trying to, like, get rid of you guys or like, ding. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, this is a thought that I never. Yeah. Okay, because so after that, so my dad, like, brings up.

us all to bed and, you know, the next day gets the house blessed. And apparently nothing bad happened after that. And there was like a closet in the house down in the basement that everyone was terrified of. But I never thought of the possibility that it was like something to do with my dad's past life. Probably. Because just the way you said there was a white orb and a black orb, right? Is that what you said? Yeah. Like good and bad. Yeah. And they were battling. Like, I totally feel like it was like the dark side. Maybe even trying to like turn you guys against your dad. so it can take over, you know? It's interesting too to think of like these are

possible fragments of his soul even though he's just alive and living but they're presenting themselves away from him and having this battle of who can re-enter him, I guess. Or be the thing coming forward. Freaked out. That just destroyed myself.

Like I'm just like, what? I'm really grateful that I didn't hear the reality of it until I was so much older. Right. And you still haven't had the nightmare again? No. Wow. That's so... And how often did you have it? You said years? Yeah, for a couple years. I mean, you know, it was so long ago, but like I truly, I have a lot of repressed memories and don't remember a lot of my childhood. And that is one that four years old. Like, that is one that I remember so vividly. I don't know exactly how long it happened, but it was enough where like,

it stuck through the gaps of memory. Wow. Yeah. And now I get to go home to three little kids. I am not doing T-T bedtime tonight. Baby, I'm out. Creepy kids, you have all the opportunity for our children to start seeing stuff. And Corinne was like the creepiest kid. I was. I had some past life stuff.

I love. Yeah. I'm always amazed when little kids like remember that. Like evidence of it too. It's always the scary as creepiest thing. But it's always so specific too. So it's like there's no way to like.

And they can't know that. Yeah. How would they know a three or four year old isn't going to know? A thousand miles away in the specifics of it. We had a listener that emailed us and we actually read a follow-up that they had sent. But their child, it was the wildest and most detailed case of reincarnation that we had ever heard of. And it was just, it's amazing what people can pick up on. And then when you actually do like the smallest amount of research, too, you're like, that is right.

Right. And yeah. I mean, no three-year-olds are Googling. I know there's iPad kids now, but they can't read. What is this town name in Maine? in Maine and like has like a building. Yeah, they're not looking at like the buildings and like when they were built and all that stuff. Did someone different townships?

Yeah. Well, kids that age too especially are so like open. Yeah, they're not scared yet. Just pure. Yeah. They just like don't even like my now three year olds. Oh my God. She used to wake up.

She used to wake up and would tell us that she called him Skelton and it was a skeleton in her room. And she would be like Skelton and we were like, who's Skelton? And she was like. Yeah. The French skeleton. Skeletal. That sounds like, and I was like, is he, you know,

like, and she was like, he's a nice guy. And I was like, okay, he's a nice guy. That's nice. And I was like, what does he do? And she was like, he's on my bookshelf. And she would always point to the same spot. And I was like, he's on your bookshelf? And I was like, is he just like, is he just sitting on your bookshelf?

And she goes, no. He goes like this. And then she poses like this. He's like laying on her bookshelf. Like with his like leaning like his fist and his, you know, on his chin. just looking at it. Which feels like a very grandfathery like looking at, just like, you know. He's not scary. He's not scary. I like as she tells you no, like

she said it like, literally said it just like, because that's like, yeah. Of course he doesn't do that. Why would he do that? Oh my God. He's no. He's like a centerfold. Okay. Like, paint me like one of your French girls. Yeah, that's exactly. There you go to. But then he would go home to visit his family. That's what she would tell me. Oh my God. So, I'd say a scout home here right now. And she was like, no, he's been He's visiting his family.

That is amazing. Okay. And he hasn't been there for a while and I asked. I was like, his scout all around and she said, no, no, he went back to his family. But do you know who is around? The mister. The mister. I'm just going to let that like sink in for a second.

That's a new one that she came over. The mister. He doesn't have eyes, but he can find us. That's what she said. Oh, my gosh. She said he doesn't have eyes. I was like, nipples just gum hurt. I think everything just responded to that.

Everything is alert. High alert. Like, boom, glass right now. Yes, that was the biggest chill in the ride. He doesn't have eyes, but he can find us. Because we came downstairs one day. We've been recording all day. Stop.

And Elena's husband, John was like, you guys need to sit down for this shit. And he starts telling us that he's playing hide-and-seek with her youngest. I was just that her name. And they were hiding under the covers. And she was like, the misters, look. for us and like started freaking him out. And he was like, no, like he won't find us. Like, no, he won't. And she goes, oh, he'll find us.

Oh, my God. And he was like, uh. And he was like, I was even like, all right, game over. The Mr. Nice? We asked if the Mr. is nice and she said, she didn't give us a full answer, but she said he takes snacks out of the, he steals the yoga packs and the cookies. He steals the yogurt packs and the cookies. And are yogurt packs and cookies missing? That's what I'm wondering. They're not missing. I don't think they've been missing now. Interesting. I think she just eats a lot of yogurt and we tell her that it is called. So she's blaming it on the mister.

Wow. There is something upstairs. Apparently. Wow. A portal. And the mister. Whenever the mister is just. Yeah, I don't like that.

I don't like that. I don't like that. I don't like that's the scariest name. Yeah. Oh. And she was in a certain room when she started talking about Mr. and skeleton. Skeleton. Excuse me.

Skeleton. And like I slept in that room and I was totally fine. But for some reason now, whenever she asks me to take it to she goes, will you take me to bed? It's so cute. Whenever I take her to bed and we walk past that room, I don't like it. Really? There's an energy in there. Who's in that room now?

Does anyone sleep in there? That's like an extra room. It's like a little guest, but it's kind of like a catch-all room right now. It's like not a formal dress room. That's like that's where we will stay guests someday. Yeah. But right now it's just kind of like everything is in that room. I wonder if there's something in the room.

Yeah. I'm wondering if it's connected to Some sort of artifact or something Yeah, because we have a bunch of stuff in that room Well, and she, that used to be her room And then she ended up switching And she never slept in that room Yeah, she never slept in there

Oh, like that was a period of like she would scream Like wake up screaming. Oh no. There's something in that room. I'm going to see it for you. Maybe there is, you're right. You're welcome. Your twins, do they see the mister?

No. They're fine. No, they saw stuff in our old house. That was, oh, can you tell the scissors story? Oh, no. Our listeners are like, not the scissor story. their story. I need to know this as their story. But then we need a, we need a current ghost haunting.

I'll give you a palaclin. I've got horrifying ones, but I'll end with a, I'll give us a nice one. I don't even want you to, though. I want a horrify. Maybe we need a horrifying one. Yeah. I think our listeners will want a horrifying. Okay. I'll just do this one quick because it's like that they've heard it like a million times. Yeah, but it's so good. It's still terrifying. It was when they were first in their like big kid beds and we had put the beds next to each other because they just like always want to be with each other. So cute. And the beds, the way we oriented. to them where like the door was on one of their left. And then it was like they were right here

against a wall. And so they just would not go to sleep the first night. And we were like, oh, it's just the new bed. Yeah. Like the excitement. So we were kind of going in there being like, it's okay. And we figured we were like, we'll just be up all night. Like we were kind of expecting this. And then all of a sudden they were like upset calling us in. And so we like run in the room and we're like, what's going on? And one of the twins was like, people keep coming in my room and they have scissors and they're trying to cut my sheets. And I was like, oh, how fucking terrifying. And she just lays this out and we both were sitting.

John literally went, like, he was like, I'm a hat out. He was like, I don't know how to handle this. Like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, okay. I was like, this is a moment right now. And it's like a core memory moment. And I need to handle this correctly. And I can't freak out and like scar her for life and be like, what the fuck are

you saying? Like, what? The way I would have burned the house down. Yeah. Pack up the things and go. Bye. And so I was like, are they here now? And she was like, no.

And I was like, okay. And she was like, they're right there. And she pointed to the hallway right outside the door. Like pitch black. Pitch black in that like little space in the hallway. So I look out there and I'm like, okay. And I'm like, they're there right now. And she's like, yeah.

And I was like, okay. So I hate thinking that there's like five little people with their scissors. I'm also watching you. The movie. That's what I was saying. That's what I thought up later. I was like, oh my God. But I was like, okay.

So I walked into the hallway where she said they were and I just stood there in the doorway and I was like, are they like near me? And she was like, yes. And I was like, okay. You were so brave. And so I was like, she told me that. I was like, you did it. And I literally go, guys, you're scaring her. This is her room. Can you please stop doing that? And then I was like, did they hear me? And she was like, she was like, yeah. And I was like, okay. And I was like, you're okay. And then like that night we just stayed up and we did. Oh my gosh. It worked. They never came back. Right. And my child was like, check under my bed. I'd be like, you You took under the bed first.

I'm scared now. Get rid of the whole cage. What do you mean? Why? You know what it is? It's one of those things. Like John and I have like an agreement with everything that like if one of us is like, this is too much for me to handle.

Yeah. One has to like step the fuck up. Yeah. That was one of those moments that John was like this is yours. He can handle like the vomit and he's like I got that. Like you handle the paranormal. Oh my gosh. When they go the American version when they're down in the basement and then there's just like

all of the spirits around them when they're like, trying to figure out the hot water heater or whatever. I could just... That's the kind of thing I was picturing. Right. Yes. But around you're staring at you. Yeah.

Apparently, they never came back. You have to, yeah, claim your space. And they never had a problem in that room again. Never. Well, that's good. They slept like champions. Wow. We ended up moving their bed away from that orientation.

Yeah, yeah. Because I was like, this is a little freaky. I don't want you looking into that hallway. If my kids are scared in the night, you're the first call, so you're going to be over. Yeah. Oh, let's establish dominates over there. Please do. You know what feels like a fix, but it's actually the opposite to a spooky room?

I always thought like, oh, what if I just have a canopy over my bed? So then I can't see what's out. But then it makes it so much worse. Right, because then you're like, what's on the other side of the cloth. Yeah, I need to see what's going on. Like under the covers isn't for me because I need to be looking around. I also like, I have to keep my bathroom door open and because I'm afraid that someone's going to like be in the hallway. Like when I shower over the bathroom, I'm a door open.

Oh, I do that too. I can't. Yeah. I'm not a fan of the door closed. No, I don't like it. I whip it open. I'm going to shock you first. Sometimes I keep myself a little wet, you know, so I have the advantage of slipping and sliding past them.

Yeah. Can't grab me. You got to think about these things. I just lock. I lock myself in there. Yeah. I leave all the doors in my house open all the time. Same.

Except when I go to sleep, I close the spare bedroom door because it freaks me out. Mm. But every other door is open. Isn't that interesting that we can feel certain parts of our houses that we just don't like. Yeah. Or it's like this, we shouldn't close the door here. There should keep the store open. There's a reason for that for sure.

Right. Especially if it's not the same throughout the whole, your whole space. There's something else. If there's like a gut. Oh my God. There's another person in the studio. Oh my God. That scared me. I scratched myself when I did that too.

And I tried. I was like, I guess my body. I think I gas before I turned around just because you were like that. print. I was like, you guys are both. To be honest, I didn't even hear what you said, but you just said like, that man and I was like, did you have to print? I'm not the only one that I saw an actual human being. You guys are just, wait, Ash, tell the story of the charm right before we were recording. This is so embarrassing. So, we're all examining it. We're like, woo-boo, what is this?

So we get up after doing our first part, which you should go listen to on two girls, one ghost. And I'm holding this charm. And so we get up and we go, like, hang out for a second. And then we come back in the room, and I was like, oh, my God. guys there's a charm on my seat and then and the charm had been a part of the story that you told yeah a charm had been a part of the story instead we're all like oh my gosh like this is it I have talking about it's this is from beyond it's a basketball it was when it wasn't you that said it's a basketball I think Sabrina one of us too it was when whoever said it's a basketball that I was like oh fuck I looked down at my shoes and I'm wearing like nighties with like cute little

charms on them. So it was not a gift from my spirit guides. It came off of my shoe. So we solved a mystery. We did. We debunked. That wasn't really that much of mystery. Yeah. We had a little mythbusters. But I love how ready we were, we were just, yes, it's definitely something. Confirmation bias at its purest. Oh, yeah. Honestly, it was brave of you, though, to admit. What did you see? You discovered it. The wheels turning. My face just went like, oh, fuck. I am wearing basketball shoes. That would be mine. That was fun. That is not. Oh, my gosh. Well, to give you a few stories from my child to own, we always say that my family's haunted and not the actual home because we built our house.

So we were the first people to live in it. We know the family who owned the farmland that was then sold to the developer to build this neighborhood. And they had it in their family for generations. So to our knowledge, on this specific land, there's absolutely nothing. But for some reason, our house has been incredibly haunted my entire childhood. And actually, a few houses down, our neighbors had to have their house exercised. Holy shit. Because there was so much activity going on.

So something's lurking. Apparently. We just, yeah, have a haunted neighborhood. Apparently, my house is really haunted. But yeah, there's been stuff that's happened my entire life. And I kind of grew up where my mom was always believing me and my brother when we would say we would see stuff. but my dad was taking the position of not wanting to scare the kids. And he thought the parenting choice he would make is saying like, oh, well, that's just your imagination. You know, like, the classic thing.

But it was conflicting with my mom being like, I see them too. And then, of course, like my personality too. Like, I have a lot of pride and whatever. And I was like, dad, that's super unfortunate that you aren't blessed with the ability to see. But it's there. Sorry. I know it's there, though. Yeah. So we were all just experienced.

so many hauntings and my house itself has has sort of like we call them like the resident ghosts we have the same spirits that a lot of people see but occasionally there will be a spirit that comes through that will only have one or two experiences with and I would like to think that the reason that they are no longer there is because we essentially have to like banish them and do some cleansing practices and whatnot to get them out the witch's cauldron the witch's cauldron you know what's so funny is like some of the stories that I have too like I I've been tucked in multiple times in my bed, like someone going, which is actually really nice. But it feels good and I'm not scared in that moment.

I'm like, oh, that's nice. That's so nice. The comforting, very motherly. But I think, like, the visual of it would be so scary. Oh, yeah. But I had this one, the scariest experience I had in my house. And every one of my family members has a scariest experience. And they're all very different from one another.

But the scariest I had was I also slept with my bedroom door open because I felt like I needed to see. And I always had my mom keep the hall. light on and some night lights throughout the hall as well so it was completely lit up so I can see and I woke up probably around like 1030 11 p.m. and I am hearing something and the way that my bed was was I had it pushed into the corner so that I could face out and be protected and then my back would be protected with the wall because I couldn't be exposed on either side. So I was facing the way that I made myself sleep every night was I was facing the door and the door was. The door was. facing the top of the stairwell.

So basically like the stairs turn and then I see the like the last five steps, the landing and then the majority of the hallway as it loops back to my bedroom. And so I start to turn and I see someone's hand on the railing. And it is very slowly. Like this whole experience took like 30 minutes. It is like the pace of a snail going slowly up the railing. And I can start to see the hand and the arm. And it's it's this man and he's. He's older.

Like his hands are, he's lived a life. Have I heard? They're wrinkled. Probably not. I'm sure I've told you like a piece of it before. Oh my gosh. And he gets to the top of the stairs and now I can see what he's wearing. He's basically wearing like a combat like pants like cargo like has a bunch of pockets

or whatever and a t-shirt. And his hair is like a military cut and it's super blonde white. And then he starts to turn and his hand is still on the railing. And he's turning and now it's like. on the banister that is horizontal and he's coming down the hallway. His face is filled with scars. His face

looks so evil. And now he's facing me, he's staring at it. Oh my God. And I'm in my bedroom and I sit up in bed so that I can see him continue closer to me as he starts to get out of sight in like my blind spot of my doorway. And so

we're staring at each other for probably 20 minutes. Oh my God. I was probably 14 or 15. Holy shit. shit. And he's making his way, slowly inching. And my, I'm like barely breathing because he feels so evil. And the way he's looking at me is not like just this residual haunting or like a confused spirit that's just a shock to see me. Like he feels horrible. Oh my God. And he finally, oh my God. I am right now. Right now. Right now. I'm like in a rest. So he disappears out of

sight for a moment and I'm still standing there or sitting in my bed. And then eventually he makes way out of that blind spot into my doorway. No. Standing in my door frame, staring at me for probably another five minutes. Oh my God. I'm so stressed out right now. How did you don't shit yourself?

I was like, did not barely have breath. Like there was no, I couldn't even scream like mom. No, no. I would have passed away. Yes.

Yeah, I mean, they say fight or flight, but I feel like freeze is such a real reaction in terrifying moments. Like the more often reaction, you know? Yes, it is. Because you also have to like evaluate what's happening. Yeah.

And especially when it's something paranormal, like what the hell are you supposed to do? What are you supposed to have out of the area? Right. I'm going to run through him. Come on. Yeah, you don't even know. Throw punches.

Right. I don't know what to do. Right. Exactly. And so, I mean, this whole or deal is taken like 20, 25, 30 minutes or whatever of him coming around. So he's slow as molasses. Like, it could not be a slower crawl for this guy to get close to me. I wonder why.

Which is why the next part is so terrifying. Oh, no. Oh, no. No, no. A full on sprint. From the doorway to me on the bed. I'm sitting up. I get, when he gets to me,

I can't see him anymore, but I'm blasted back onto the bed. My body whips back. I'm now laying down. I shoot myself back up and I sprint to my parents' room and I get my mom. What the fuck? My mom can't believe I don't know this. Oh yeah. I don't know why she didn't let me just like sleep in between my mom and my dad.

I mean, I'm 15. Like it's a small bed for like three adults to be there. I was terrified. So my mom was like, okay, you'll be okay. I'll come back and sleep with you. So she comes back to my room with me. I don't see the man anywhere, but I'm like super paranoid. Yeah.

So it's like, I don't know, 11, 11, 15 at night. She sleeps. I'm against the wall. She sleeps so she's looking out at the doorway. Finally, I fall back to sleep. I wake up again a few hours later because I feel like I sense something and I turn around. And he's at the doorway again, staring. No, why is he there?

Why is he still there? I hate it. Yeah. So I stared at him for another five minutes and then I just like lowered myself and just, like, lowered myself and just, like faced away and didn't sleep the rest of the night and checked a couple more times and he had been gone. But that was my scariest experience that I ever had. That is a scary thing I've horrified. He never came back after that. What the, and I just, like, why was he moving so slowly? Right. That whole time. And then a full on sprint too. He was like, he was trying to

torture me. The full on sprint. Or do you think he was so scary? Do you think like he had to go up the stairs that slowly to like build that energy and knew what he was doing? You know what I mean? My thing is, was he getting energy from the fear you were feeling? Exactly. And he was taking his time to, like, build it. Oh, my God. And was he trying to possess me? I don't know.

And today, we are going to talk to that man now because he's still in sight of you. That man is Mr. He lost his eyes. He lost his eyes. He will find you. He lost a few things. Oh, my gosh. That's by far the scariest.

Well, I'll give you a quick one to end on. That's a lot nicer. Oh, wow. With your mom. Holy shit. I need something nice. I'm not well, bitch. I'm going to talk about the dog.

Oh, that's cute too. Yeah, the dog one. Okay, so I had a dog growing up. His name was wrinkles. He was completely smooth. Rinkles is a smooth dog. That's hilarious. He was wrinkly when he was little.

We thought he didn't know him. We thought he'd stay wrinkly. He grew out of it. Yeah, he very quickly. It was embarrassing. But he was a black dog. And throughout my childhood, we had multiple people, like, multiple of my friends say that they saw a black dog.

And we always were kind of like, oh, it must have been wrinkles. And they're like, no, I saw another black dog. like a black clab with a red collar. And so we kind of had heard from other people, mostly children, that they were seeing another black dog in our house. And then my mom, one of her college friends, was visiting. And his partner was sitting at the kitchen table and said, oh, I don't mean to alarm you guys.

I don't know if you believe in spirits at all, but there's a ghost dog here. Yeah, and the ghost dog did like a little drive-by kiss, like walked under the table and kissed her leg. That's the cutest thing I've ever heard. And so we were like, oh my gosh. This whole time we thought our dog was like an only child. But clearly there's another dog here, but we'd never seen the dog.

The only time anyone in my family saw this dog is, this is probably one of my mom's scariest moments. But she woke up in the middle of the night because what she thought at the time was my dog jumping on the bed and cowering had woken her up. And my dad was out on traveling for work. So she wakes up to a black dog that she thought was wrinkles, getting onto the bed and shaking and being right by her. And she's like, it's okay, it's okay, wrinkles like trying to calm him down. She looks up and there is a black mass, like a mist coming down the hallway of her bedroom towards her. And she's like, I ought to protect my dog.

And she just goes, get out and like yells and points. And the mist like dissipates and kind of like disappears in a moment. Yeah. Like shit. And the dog is cowering to the side of her. And then my dog gets out of his crate. And my mom looks down and sees wrinkles. Oh my God.

And then looks to the dog on the bed and realizes it's not wrinkles. And then in that moment, the ghost dog was scared. He was horrified. She's so scared. Yeah. He ran to my mom for protection. She was like, she'll get me. Right.

Exactly. Oh, my God. So that was the only time we've ever seen the ghost dog. But yeah, there's a black dog with a red collar that's living. Wow. He just drive by kisses. Drive by kiss. He's just a little sweetie. You love snuggles. Right? Exactly.

That's what we need. And then when my dog had passed away, the six months after he passed, there was a lot of experiences we had with him. We have some like photo proof of a few things too. But he kicked all the ghosts out for a solid six months. It was dead quiet in our house. Wrinkles. Wow. Rinkles and protector. Yeah. He was like, y'all had the upper hand when I was alive. Get out. This is my territory. Yeah. So, I mean, it was super peaceful. all of there for those six months.

Yeah. Winkles. Wow. Those are a few. They come back. Holy shit. I want more. Yeah.

We were recently talking about doing like an episode where we just talk about our personal experiences. Yeah. Like the Sabrina episode. Corinne could have like like 10 episodes. Yeah. Sabrina was like, oh, I could probably do mine in like 30, 45 minutes. I was like, oh, I think I need like 10 parts. Yeah.

So three weeks. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We've had a ton of, ton of experiences. And all the houses that my parents, like from the time my parents were young too and all the apartments that they were in their colleges like every place has been haunted

absolutely just bring the ghosties yeah exactly yeah it's their family place i've been in has been haunted are we gonna bring ghosts home with us because of you oh man i will say that karenn has probably come home with your yeah crin will collect them you'll take them away from you what if mr in the mr mr mr goes home with karen yeah yes you might get the mr it looks like a little boy reading your phone scale tool i'm kind of i like want him back yeah i'm like that he went to see his family that he brought He probably announced to your child too and was like, you know what, I'm going to do some traveling. Like, here are my plans.

He might see you in a few months. Yeah, he's just telling like a two-year-old that he was just like, hey, I'm going to go see my family. He's just a lot of transparency here with this relationship. I might be gone for a little while. Here's where I'll be. If Mr. came, though, because Skelton is not there. Maybe. Maybe Skelton is the protector.

Yeah, exactly. That's why he was just like. Yeah, I'm watching over you. Making sure she was okay. All right. Skelton, come back from your vacation. Skelton. Yeah. We need you.

We love so deepy. Oh, yeah. Skeleton all the way. And that's exactly how she would pronounce it, too. Skeleton. Skeleton. Yeah. Skeleton.

Well, the East Coast itself is just extremely haunted. I feel like no matter where we are, there's so much history behind every place and so many spirits behind every place, too. Oh, totally. Yeah. Which is a beautiful transition. I was going to say that too. Well done. Yeah.

Five years later, I'm like halfway there. You know what? I loved it. Because today what we did in the first part of this was we took some hometown cases. We did Sabrina's hometown and a Boston case. Woo-hoo. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. That's interesting. It's for both of you. I was like, you know what. And today, I am going to do something from Corinne's hometown of Chittenden County, Vermont. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I like that little song.

And Corinz's going to do. What's up Chittenden people? And Corinne's going to do something from Boston. Boston. So we're keeping this going here. I can start it off because this is really fun. I'm excited to talk about it. I'm very fun.

I'm excited about this one. I don't know anything about this. I'm going to talk about Champ. Yeah. The Lake monster. Because why not? Why not? Who doesn't love a cryptid?

Yeah. And Champ seems awesome. Like I love it. It doesn't get enough. Doesn't get enough. Recognition. Everybody's like all about nesting. He's like, we have champ right here.

That's the thing. Like, I'm, like, my last name is Urquhart. Like, Nessie is in Loch Ness outside of Urquhart Castle. So I was like, I'm a Nessie head. And I was like, wait a second. It's just right here. You're a American cousin. Yeah.

And I'm like, this doesn't get enough. Yeah. No. I didn't know nearly enough about it. I knew the name Champ and I'm like, I don't know. And then when I looked into it, I was like, okay. Okay. I think Champ exists.

I do too. I believe in Champ. You're a champ truer. I believe in Nessie and I believe in Champ. Yeah. So this is obviously a lake monster from Lake Champlain. This is the Adirondack's biggest lake at 120 miles long. That's pretty big.

It's a big lake. Pretty big. It's a freshwater lake. And I had no idea what that meant also. I was like, are there non-freshwater lakes? Like, I am so geographically. The ocean? Yes.

Literally. I was like, what's a non-freshwater lake? And then it's like, I was literally looking it up and it's like, there's an ocean. That is not fresh It's the boundary between New York and Vermont It also runs up north to Quebec So you can illegally cross the border If anyone needs to

Just throwing it out P-A All of a sudden they see like an uptick I did hear people would like go across Like Champlain to drink Because of the drinking age in Canada Canada was 18. Oh, that's, I actually had a fake 18-year-old ID when I was 17.

Oh, my God, that's also. Just for Canada? So I could go party at New Year's in Canada. In Canada. That's very odd. That's very old. Yeah. That's smart.

Fake 18-year-old ID. Yeah, and not many people have that. Just go to another country real quick. I know you're like, I'm 18. I can vote, so just saying. This was also the sixth great lake. But like Pluto before her, the title was revoked. After only 18 days.

I didn't know that. 18 days. Oh, I feel so. Wow. Only for 18 days? Yeah, which is wild. That's also like rude. It's very rude.

How did it get through? Pluto had it for a long time. For a long time. Decades. I don't know. I guess people still consider it a great lake because it's pretty great. Just like Pluto is still a planet to me. It is.

It's always getting to my eyes. Yeah. Yeah. People are bullying Pluto and I don't appreciate that. I don't either. We have to defend her. We do. At all costs. We create shirts that say Team George and Team Pluto.

Hell yeah. Team George is from Part 1. There you go. Another call back. And we're going to keep calling back. You have to listen to both parts. You have to. There's a string.

If you only get it. Get it. If you know, you know. If you know. If you know. No, Ickyick. Now, in Lake Champlain, there's always been sightings and rumors about like little, little creatures, little monsters here and there. But this is not just like fairy tales.

Like, there's real sightings here. There's real stories. There's some real evidence. And actually has made scholars and scientists take a little second look here. So this is not just one of those like, you know, this is a small. monster in the lake. It's not an old wives tale. I don't think so.

It is current. And it goes way back because it begins with like the Abanaki tribes in the area. They lived and hunted near Lake Champlain. It obviously wasn't Lake Champlain always. But they were there for years and years. They were known to share tales and reports of huge serpents that lived in that lake. And it wasn't just Champ. There was like several huge serpents and like then smaller ones.

There was a ton of different little monsters. Wow. Wow. And they referred to these creatures as Gitteskog. I hope I said that right. I probably didn't. I apologize. You did your best. I did my best. And they said it was found in what is now Lake Champlain. Wow. So the Abenakis would actually warn French explorers about keeping out of the lake and respecting this serpent. And that was for their own safety and the safety of their tribes. They were like, don't fuck with this. Please and thank. They've seen it. They know how to live harmoniously with all of the monsters.

They were like, we respect it. Why do I have a fear that they didn't respect it? Well, they would tell them. Because colonizers. It was very little respect. They respected like a. Nothing. Yeah.

So they ended up writing, while in the canoes, the men should not make loud noises or fire their muskets without good reason. Neither should they throw anything in the water. So they were very specific. Don't throw anything in there. That's just rude and pollution. Do not make lots of, like, racket when you're or in away there. You got to be quiet. They were serious about it.

These are like the things you're not supposed to do in shark-infested waters, too, which is a little, there you go. Creepy that it's like... That it's very similar. Right. Yeah. This thing will attack you. And they need to be quiet. They have learned to live harmoniously with this thing.

So they were like, don't fuck it up for us. So actually, according to the untold story of champ, a social history of America's Loch Ness Monster by Robert E. Bartholomew. It's a really cool book. Check it out. There are alleged pictographs of champ-like animals at Rock Regio or Split Rock, which is in like near the deepest part of the lake. Wow.

And there's actual pictographs in there that they were like big serpents are in there. No way. So it's like. This is amazing. It goes back. This goes so far back. It does. Now, annoyingly, Samuel de Champlain, who the lake is actually named after, has kind of always been attributed with having seen Champ for the first time. And that's just not true. Like, the indigenous people were the ones who saw them first. And it's like a very fake story

that people spend about him seeing it first. Like, I think it happened in like the 70s that, like, someone wrote in an article that he was the first one and we're like, this is what he saw. And it wasn't what he saw. He did spot some smaller mysterious little monsters and spoke about how the indigenous people warned him of bigger ones in the lake. And he wrote, there is also a great abundance of many species of fish. Amongst others, there is one called by the natives, and I hope I say this right, Chisaru, I believe it is, which is of various lengths. But the largest of them, as the tribes have told me, are from eight to ten feet long. I have seen some five feet long, which were as big as my thigh and had a head as large. as large as my two fists with a snout two feet and a half long and a double row of very sharp

dangerous teeth. Its body has a good deal of the shape of a pike, but it's protected by scales of silvery gray color and so strong that a dagger could not pierce them. Holy shit. So when I first read that, I was like, that is a monster. Yes. You saw a monster. But scientists believe this might have actually been him seeing a garfish or a gar pike. Oh, alligator gar.

If you look it up, you're probably going to agree. It also sounds basically what it said. A little bit like a lamp ray too. Yes, it does. The lampreys are, they have these circular mouths with multiple rows of teeth. And they usually latch onto the side of fish and, you know, eat them. Like the thing from Mima. They're little.

That's what I'm picturing. The headlamp. Yeah. So sort of. Yes. Those are angler fish. Oh. You two know so much about fish.

I don't know. I don't know. Fish experts. We're leg people, you know. We're of the sea. We're of the sea. But yeah, these, like, the garfish are, like, these long, like, serpenty kind of looking things. And they are, like, silvery, so in the sense.

They're not crazy long, though. They're not, like, 25 feet long, like, where we start seeing these things. And they don't necessarily have the flexibility of what we attribute to the monsters. They're not, like, slithering around. Right. Like, they just have a little bit of that shape body. So they think that might be what he was referring to when he was talking about that. But according to the book I just mentioned, the first real known sighting of Champ, as we know Champ, was on May 18, 1808.

So way back. And the public advisor newspaper reported, this is all it said, Lake Champlain, a monster has lately made its appearance on the water of the lake. Okay. That's it. Now what. There was no article. Just like a headline in the end. They were like, go about your day, everybody.

Yeah. Don't know what to tell you. Have fun back picking, I guess. It's a beach clothes. Like, maybe more information. Seriously. They were just like, yeah, I guess a monster started making appearance. And everybody's like, yeah?

Okay. Okay. Okay. So, don't know what to look out for. So everybody was just kind of like, okay. Until Saturday, July 24th, 1819. When the Plattsburgh Republican newspaper reported from a man named Captain Crum. I love Captain Crum.

I believe him. I'm going to travel the world with him. I don't trust him with any of my secrets. I just, I believe. of Captain Crum. He just a whole sum. I bet he smells like gingerbread. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. He's just a salty sea captain. Yeah. He's so comforting. Yeah, I like him. Well, Captain Crum was on a ship, on his ship. He had a ship. He's a captain after all. Of course. This was around 8 a.m. on that day. And he was going through Bullwaga Bay. I hope I said that right, off of Port Henry near New York. And when he saw what he described as a straight up sea monster in the lake, he said it was black. It was about what he said to be, which I love the precision here. He said it was about 187 feet long.

I love how specific that is. 187 feet long. I mean, he's a sea captain. So he probably knows measurements and distances. That's the thing. He has a lot of people. That's the thing because a lot of people got mad at this and we're like, that's very specific. And I think he made it up.

And I'm like, no. Have you seen below deck? Is good at measuring. I know it. I know it. I know he's fine. I believe him. There's like those certain people who can do.

draw a circle perfectly. Yeah. I think he is a perfect measurer. I think so too. I think he could tell you your age, like, full-shade of the month if he looked at you and just feel that about him. Maybe your height. Maybe your height. Yeah. And I don't even think he would tell anyone their weight. No, he knows better. He's a gentleman. He knows better than that. I believe that about him. But he said this thing had a head that looked like a seahorse, which sounds adorably terrifying. Yeah, it does. I love a seahorse. Like a shoddy and that tiny. Yeah, that big is scary. An enlarged seahorse.

Yeah. That would stress me out slightly. Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot. But he said when he saw this thing, it did a breach out of the water that was like 15 feet out of the water. I don't love that. Yeah. He also saw a white star on its forehead.

Ooh, celestial. Cased by the universe. Yeah. There you go. Kissed by the universe. I love that. Wow. That was so pleasant.

That was great. That should be a fragrance. You're channeling Mr. Crum. Mr. Crum is here with us. Speak to us. And he's like, it's true. And there was also, I guess, a red band around its neck, like a red band of color around its snack. And honestly, I was imagining like a collar.

It was too like a little bandana. There's like a wee little human riding it. Wee. Has a little tiny saddle. A set of dragon riders. It's like seahorse riders. This thing also has three teeth. Oh, that's adorable.

That's adorable. That's adorable. So cute And I imagine there's like a big gap between all of them like And I think it was like he said one on the top And then two on the bottom Which is like the cutest thing I've ever heard And you know they're not pointy

You know they're like little mounds Yeah just cute Oh he's a vegetarian for sure Absolutely He's like a giant before time Yes This is what it feels like He's like a giant sea toddler

Yeah He's just like Oh I love it But then it goes into crumb Describing him having eyes The color of a peathe peeled onion. Oh. And that took me out a little bit. I was like, I was in and then I was

incredibly specific. So like this very, why not just say white, I feel like. It almost makes you think like blind. That's the thing. It makes me think of like a, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Like like a day all over the area. Like I think of like a cataract or a, like a lot kind of thing. Which can be cute film over the eye kind of thing. Bubba got a little film on her eye and she was adorable. She was. She was so cute. Yeah. And we just, but this would also. It just came out. Oh. That was an experience. Walk home.

Yeah. She ended up both her eyes taken out. So she was just walking around. But she was still beautiful. I'm sure. She was a beautiful, babe. And she has her eyes now. Elena saw her in a dream.

It's true. She came back after we put her to sleep. And she had both her eyes. Oh, that's so beautiful. And I saw both her eyes. And I was like, you got your eyes back, girl. Oh, my gosh. How precious.

You heard some really nice experiences. Yeah. Yeah. I really do. Yeah, you do. Yeah. Oh, gosh, I love that. Yeah.

It was beautiful. I was going to say the glaze or the, or the glaze or the color of the eyes might make sense too, because Lake Champlain is very deep. So if these are creatures that spend most of the time in the deep, they don't necessarily need the vision like that. We do for the surface, right? Exactly. Like bringing it back to the anglerfish, they have that weird eye. Because they don't need that because they're on the bottom of the ocean. Right. So that's probably exactly what it would be. Because they do think that he lives in the deepest parts of the ocean, of the lake. And that's how he's able to stay out of sight for so long. Wow. But, you know, that's a little creepy. And he apparently moved very quickly through the water. And then he just dove under and that was that. Well, don't we all have places to go?

We do. And so does champ. Yeah. And. But Champ likes Mr. Crum. He needs to Captain Crum. He was like, I just need to say hi. Yeah.

And then went back down. A little foggy eye wing. Yeah. It's very flattering. If you see a cryptid, they've chosen you. Depending on the cryptid. Yes, sure. Flattering depending.

Yeah. Yeah. But this one, I'd be flattering as fog. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I feel like I'd be flatter no matter what. Even if it was like the Flatwoods monster, I'd still be like, oh, mothman, I'd be like, yeah, let's go on a date. Let's go. We actually asked people when we were doing a meeting great for the show who they would want to go on a date with if they had to choose any cryptid and overwhelmingly. Oh, Mothman. Always. Do you guys follow him on Twitter? No. I used to. He's a great follow. Okay. We'll follow. New fan. I love that. I love that for everybody. I never thought of creating cryptic. as hot, but, like, I love that everybody loves Mothman.

I think he's pretty chiseled. Yeah, I think he can take you, like, on flight, you know, if you want to, like, see the city from above. Hold on Tric Spider-Runky. Mothman. Another Twilight callback. Yeah, you're in love it. Wow, that's good.

We are now in Forks. Welcome. This is now a Twilight podcast. We're just going to watch all the movies. Team Vampire all the way. This is a bit off of your new. There you go. Yeah.

We're going to a little side-tail. Yeah, that's what's next. Part two. Part two is Twilight. Everybody would be like, wow. Okay. So this whole thing with Captain Crum was sent in a letter to the Plattsburgh Republican, and it wasn't sent by Captain Crum.

It was somebody who he had told of this, and they decided to relay it. And this letter was signed Horse Macerel. What's that mean? I mean, once again, I believe Captain Crum, and now I think I'm team Horse McRill. I'm not sure. I believe that. Like, Captain Crum like may have been on an acid trip.

You might have ate some bad mushrooms. Yeah, totally. Maybe that was Captain Crum and he was like, I'm horse mackerel. I'm feeling different. I feel like different. I've been changed by this experience.

I'm dramatic. It's like his screen name. Yeah. Horse mackerel, three, two, three. I like it. At hotmail.com. But yeah, that was the Captain Crum.

I believe him. I'm on team. this is Champ now. Yeah. I'm on the ride. That brings us to 1826 when two fishermen got scared to hell by Champ. They described him as 30 feet long. It's a little smaller than what?

1807. You know. It's a baby. There you go, baby champ. And this one came out of a cave at them. Oh. This one was also different. Yeah, just at them.

He was coming for them. Which I don't believe Champ would do. And less provoked. And maybe. Maybe it was like. old Greg and he was like you fishing in my my wand? I love old Greg.

Maybe that's what he's a lot of color. I'll play a new love game. I'm playing that at my wedding. Absolutely. You got to do the day. That's your first dance. Do the dance when they're... I mean...

We got to choreograph it. Let's do it. Let's go. Should we do it? Yes. Let's do it. Somebody's got to get a light under the two too. Okay.

I'll put it under red dress. Let's go. Downstairs mix up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, this was not old Greg. I imagine. Bummer. He was polka-dotted, though.

Oh. This one had polka-dots. Yeah, so we got stripes and polka dots. He was red and black, red and black polka dots, which, like, is very goth of him, I feel. Yeah. Very hot topic. So maybe this is like Champ's teenage song. Yeah.

Creeping out of a face, dad. Playing the black parade behind them. Yes. Now, they got out of there. They were like, oh, we don't want to fuck with this goth monster. So luckily, they came back the next day, and they saw that there was a huge trail that was left by this serpent. Like you can see where it had like sloughed it through. And apparently it smelled bad. Oh gosh. It's of the sea. Yeah. But they said it had a snake like smell. What does that?

Which is where they lose me. Leather. What the fuck does a snake smell? And also how do you know? Yeah. I don't know. I'm guessing. Hmm. And why are they expecting us to know? Right. What I want to know. Like they're like it was snake like. And you're like, why would I know that? Yeah. I do kind of feel like I know what that smells like, but I can't put like a, a, a, name on it. I feel like it's a strange measure of like pungence. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like a bit wet. Yeah. Maybe like that. That'd be a cool

candleline. Like all the sense that you don't really realize. They can't understand. Snake. Snake. And you're like, what do you think it smells like? Check it out. Test your sense. It was a scratch and snack. Yeah. Snake. It would be like those gross jelly beans. Oh. Oh. You just take your

life in your hands. Yeah. I never know what you're going to get. It's a fun time though. Because I feel like it would kind of be like wet dog or something. Yeah. Yeah, I'm picturing like I'm, I feel like I'm smelling wet straw right now, which is what I'm, wet straw. Yeah, you know, like some hay. Yeah. Oh, I was picturing like a straw you drink out of.

Just like wet drinking sprays. Like the one the champ puts between his three teeth. He just sticks it right in the middle of the gap right there. Three toddler teeth. He just sprays it. So there was that one. And then later in the 1800s, it was a real time for Champ in the late 1800s. He was put on a show.

He was coming out a lot. And he was really revealing himself to like big. ships and streamers. He was like the whole crew, all the passengers would see him all at once and they would all report it. He's like, I'm real. Yeah, there was like big group sightings of him. Okay. I wish I lived then. Right? You're just

standing on a steamer on your way to see and you see Champ. Except the war of 1812 and then there's a lot of people that died right there. Yeah. There was some stuff going on. Maybe I don't want to love that. Maybe I just want to plop onto a steamer for like 10 minutes. See Champ and then just

and then just end up. Yeah. Just gun it to 88 and go back. Back in the DeLorean. Yeah, I'm all set with that. But in the 1871, everyone on the Kirlu steamship saw a monster in the water that they described as going railroad speed. So it was like flying through the water. One might say like 187 miles an hour. You never know.

Maybe he just confused it. Perhaps. Maybe he had the right thing. But yeah, so these are big group sightings of this monster. Yeah. Which is more evidence than it's real. I think he's real. And then in July 1873, there was a story in the Whitehall Times that said a crew working laying down railroad tracks.

I think it was in the town of Dresden in New York, which at the time was super rustic, like very uninhabited, very unpopulated. It was like pretty treacherous, actually. There was like big nests of, you know, like, what do they call rattlesnakes everywhere. It was like somewhere you just could not just like dut around. and this crew was doing this railroad through there to connect to different places, so you wouldn't really have to hang out in Dresden. But this crew was just doing their job when they spotted something moving along the water. And it was about 20 feet long or possibly longer,

and then this is what they said, this is how they described it, as he rapidly swam away, portions of his body, which seemed to be covered with bright silver-like scales, glistened in the sun like burnished metal. From his nostrils, he would occasionally spurt, streams of water above his head at an altitude of about 20 feet. What I love him.

I know. Very impressive. He's a little whale. He loves it. The appearance of his head was round and flat, which I love it, round and flat. Round and flat.

It's round on the sides, flat on the top. If we're thinking like a seahorse head. It's like round and then flat. Or even snake-like too. Yeah, there you go. Kind of flattenes out at a certain point. We don't know which direction. Is it long?

long or wide, you know? Yeah, it depends, I guess. Yeah, you know, I wish I was there. But he says his eyes were small and piercing. His mouth bore and provided two rows of teeth, which we keep hearing the multiple rows of teeth. Right. Or just three.

It's either multiple rows or it is three. The one with three, like, had a bad accident down under and lost all the teeth. Or it was ancient. It's 187 feet long. It barely has any teeth. Like, that thing was on its last leg. prehistoric one. Right? That's true. I think you're right. That is Mother the

Dragon. I think so. Could be. I think that's like patient zero. I think you've cracked the coat. Yeah. But they also said that he displayed these teeth to his beholders. And as he sprays it out of his nose. He's just closing for pictures. As he moved off at a rate of 10 miles per hour, which I'm like, how did you know that? Portions of his body

appeared above the surface of the water. while his tail, which resembled that of a fish, was thrown out of the water quite often. Adorable. I like it. I like it. So this came out, and then more people working on the railroad and more residents of the area came forward. And we're like, wait, I saw shit like this too, like a couple weeks ago. But they were like, I just didn't want to sound crazy, so I didn't come forward with it.

Glad these guys were okay with sounding crazy. That's awesome. So reports came from this guy named C.S. Leonard, who was working. I think he was like a boss at the railroad. So he was like a pretty smart guy. And he was working in Dresden as well. And he said he was leading a crew on the property of General David Barrett weeks earlier. And he was told that his crew had seen a huge snake-like creature.

And he himself saw later, after they had told him this, he saw remains of animals, like large animals, that he believed this thing was eating. Interesting. So then General David Barrett, whose property they were working. on, he actually saw a huge snake with what he said was glittery silver scales. So again, another common time. And he said he shot at the snake, which rude. How dare he?

Yeah. Very rude. And he said, but he missed and the thing just like slithered into the water. Hmm. So there's that. And there was even a period during this time where farm animals from the area around the lake started going missing. So people were thinking that it was like.

This is interesting. I'm curious, is it like slipping out of the water? That's what I wonder. And how is no one seeing it on land? And there's no trail of it left behind either. But then you get like the guys who said it came out of the cave and they saw a trail. Right. Yeah, yes.

Anaconda style. Right? I'm saying. I'm saying. Maybe it's just a giant prehistoric anaconda. Yeah. It sounds like the peninsula python. Oh yeah.

Right. Good call. Right. The other thing too is like no one can. ever say that Champ is not real. If we don't know how eels reproduce, like you can't tell me, you don't know something from a, from a creature that we see all the time. And we can like touch. Yeah. And then say that this, this isn't real. So that's my PSA to everybody. And it's real. Deep bodies of water. I'm like, we don't understand. Oh. You do not know. The ocean.

There's a whole mess of monsters. Even on the land we're still discovering. Humans living underwater. Oh, there's like, yeah. They're smart. Yeah. Like, we will never know. There's Target down there. Just a city target, though. It doesn't have everything you need. You got to get in and get out. Yeah, you got to.

Now, in July 1883 was one of the sightings that was considered the most credible up to this point. Because it was that of the, it was an observation made by Clinton County Sheriff Nathan H. Mooney. So the sheriff is now saying he saw him. He saw the monster at Cumberland Head

and he said, I then discovered that it was an enormous snake or water serpent with a long jaw, a snake-shaped head, at least eight inches across the top or flat part, and 10 inches from the top of the head to the end of the jaw. The serpent was half a mile inside of Cumberland Head in the same distance from the shore. Its body, which must have been 20, give or take 30 feet in length, was pointed to the north. And he said he had been on a ship called the Nelly when he saw this thing. And the pilot of the Nelly confirmed this and said I also saw it. So there's that.

In August of that same year, a whole steam ship and a crew saw champ. It was the WB.E.D. And they almost capsized after actually almost running into Chang. Oh my God. Yeah.

And this thing is active too. It's not just like from a distance. Everyone's like, look at that thing. It is. He's like popping up. Right. Yeah. And they think he came up and like didn't realize

that the boat was there and kind of like tossed it. a little bit. But then was like, but they said he went right under. My B, my B. So, and then in the early 1870s, actually,

P.T. Barnum. Yes, that P.T. Barnum. Oh, shit. This guy? Yeah. He put an ad in the Whitehall Times that said, I hereby offer $50,000 for the hide of the Great Champlain Serpent to add to my Mammoth World's Fair show. You are authorized to

draw on me for any sum necessary to assist in servicing the monster's remains. That's rude. Do you need that, sir? No. So he was actively like, kill this thing and then bring me a skin. Yeah, that's like, no, P.T. Barnum.

No. Now we move on to 1945. Another crew and another ship saw champ altogether. Damn. It was the SS Ticonderoga and the passengers. The crew. It was the actual pencil. They made the pencils out of that boat.

Boom. After this happened, they were like, we got to go. They were like, get rid of that. And it was the whole crew, all the passengers, they all saw Chant. Wow. They all had the same, like, observations, all described it the same. Then that brings us to July 5th, 1977, when the most famous photo of Champ was taken. This was from Sandra Manzi, from Bristol, Connecticut.

She was out enjoying some time near the lake with her soon-to-be husband. She had grown up in the area. She knew the legend of Champ. Yeah. They sat down together on the shores of the lake. They were going to have a picnic. They were like, this is so nice. And Champ said, me too, baby.

What do you eat it? Yeah, right? He said, I got three teeth. You got some salad? And she looks out into the lake and she just sees something. And she's like, that's, it just looked strange. And she figured it was some animal or like a big school of fish moving in unison. And she was like, oh, that's interesting.

And she just kind of pointed at it. So they're both watching. And then they see this neck come out with a head. And then out. And it was just slowly coming out And it kept coming out Oh my gosh This neck just got bigger and bigger and bigger

So she's like What the hell is that? She said it looked like some kind of like Prehistoric dinosaur Like Brontosaurus Just coming out of here So she snapped a quick photo With her Kodak Instomatic camera

And then she just kept it And she didn't tell anyone She said she was terrified when she saw it She felt like she was seeing something She shouldn't see That's what she said I literally felt like I was seeing something I shouldn't have seen

I would think it would be exciting because she knew the legend. She was, but I think she was like, now that I'm seeing it before my very, I feel like I shouldn't be here. I bet he didn't want me to see him. But this thing, she did end up, it was because she did end up coming forward, I think, in like the early 90s to show it. And it was featured in a ton of stuff, notably. And notably it was in Lake Monster Mysteries, Exploring the World's Most Elusive Creatures by Benjamin Redford and Joe Nickel. Joe Nickel, who also appeared in my James Maybrick episode. I was going to say, I thought that name sounded familiar to me.

That's been like, weird. That episode is like the episode that never ends. Yeah. But they said of this photo because they're like very into debunking and authenticating things. Right. So they said, the Manzi photo stands alone as the most credible and important photographic evidence of the existence of Lake Monsters. Wow. And straight from Vermont.

Straight from Vermont. It's not happening to Nessie yet. I have faith, but it will. But by 1992, over 600 people had claimed to see Champ. Wow. And it was so a plenty throughout the 80s and 90s that the people around this area actually made sure Champ is like respected and protected. Good. Which I love.

In 1981, Port Henry, New York declared that their waters were considered a safe haven for Champ. Oh. I love this. It's so cute. Get out of here, P.T. Barnum. Right. And today they actually have a statue of Champ next to the water. And in 1982...

I just imagine little Champ looking at a statue like, that's me. They love me. I made it. I made it. He goes down like, Mom. My great-great-grandfather would be so proud of me right now. The one with three teeth was one. And in 1982, Vermont followed suit.

And the state passed a house resolution that protects Champ. Wow. And in 1983, not to be outdone, both the state of... and the State Senate of New York also passed resolutions that protect Champ. Look at that. This is like the most... Wholesome. Sweet and wholesome.

So wholesome. You got to take care of your Lake Monster. You got it. In 2003, after three new sightings that same year, and it was like by June of that year, there were three new sightings in 2003. Discovery Channel did a show called America's Lockness Monster all about Champ. So you can go find it, too. It's like you can watch it streaming.

I feel like I remember watching that one. I was little now that I'm thinking about. It's really cool. And for this special, they brought like a bunch of experts in and scientists and equipment and they went into the lake. And they wanted to really get some like real evidence here. And they were able to pick up some really strange noises in the water of like champagne. Champagne. We're in France now.

And the noises resembled the sounds of like a whale or a dolphin. I was going to say what does it sound like. It was like so. It's like so. That's really cool. And there are no dolphins or. Wales. Yes, there's nothing also like Champlain that would make that noise.

Nothing that they have found that like that talks through sonar. Has anyone ever gone? I mean, is there a lake submarine? Can we go down there? That's what I wonder. Because you can only go down so deep though, right? Because of the pressure. I think they have done some sonar to try.

I mean, in every documentary it's like, and then the team was sent down and, you know, they found nothing or this weird shadow that we know what it is, you know. But they couldn't explain this like sonar type sounds. They cannot explain it. Because obviously there's no whales or dolphins in fresh water. Right. Right. It's not happening. But people are still. It's not happening. It is champ. Now, people still see champ today. It has not died down. It's like a little less on the reports because I think we don't have like the newspapers like we did back then where that's all you got. And I think it did uptick slightly during COVID.

Oh, that makes sense. Fewer people in the water. The border was locked down so we didn't have all the Canadians coming down in there. There you go. It was quiet on the lake. Ooh, and people started seeing it. So he was happy. He was swimming about. Yes.

The whole lake to himself. Right? I like that. But I just keep saying that. I like this. I love this. I'm like, it's like, nature is healing. You know, like, champ is healing.

And I actually took a picture of this marker because I wanted to read it. It's so cute. Oh. There's just like a picture of my family here. I'm like, why did that come up? So apparently there's a historic. marker in Clinton County on the shores that like marks and they

call them Champy. And it says on the marker it says Champi legendary lake monster lives here. Over 300 sightings reported since 1819 up to 200 feet long. New York's law protects this regional icon. And it's like a little

sweet. This regional icon. And that's just who has officially reported their sightings. Exactly. Official reports. So I'm sure there's Hundreds and hundreds more. Absolutely. There's also a Vermont baseball team called the Lake Monsters with their mascot being champ, and it's adorable. They're part of the futures collegiate baseball league, in case you were wondering, I kind of was, I guess.

Enough to write it down. Enough to put it out there. There was more sonar captured recently by Katie Elizabeth, who's a champ hunter and author of Waterhorse of Lake Champlain, a cryptozoological biography of Champ. which we love. I also want to be a crypto zoologist. That would be so fun. Have you been to the Cryptozoology Museum up in Portland, Maine? No.

I want to go so bad. There's a lot of castings of like Bigfoot. I love that stuff. It would be so fun to just like get in a van. Yes. And for a year. Just search like cryptos. Yeah.

Just places and museums. Yeah. I would love that. A cryptid adventure. A cryptid adventure. Should we do that guys? Yes. And our little Scooby-Doo van.

Bring the whole family. The mystery machine. Yeah. An RV. If we were bringing the family in RV. Get in kids. We're going to find Bigfoot. You're like, what?

It ends with Corinne and Bigfoot getting me. Because Currieu wants to marry Bigfoot. It's the big joke that I'll disappear into the woods with Bigfoot. So it will end our trip with Corinne marrying Bigfoot. Perfect. A little ceremony in the woods. Cute. Beautiful little Rustic ceremony.

And then they run off together. An intimate ceremony. I love it. You guys can all officiate. Yes. Awesome. Well, if you want to find Champ, I do, which we all do. Yes.

A lot of the sightings have happened around Booga Bay, where Crum first spotted him. Lots more came out of that, so that's a good place. And the deepest part of the lake could be about 400 feet deep, which makes my toes curl. Yeah, that's really deep. Stop beating because I hate deep water. It freaks me out. Yeah, it's just thinking about that is anything beneath you. Yeah, I'm like, there's definitely prehistoric shit down there.

And Target. Yeah. It would make sense for Champ to probably be hiding that deep in the water, so I think so. Because he, I mean, considering his hold on the title of hide and seek champion of the century, I think, he's probably down there. That's why his name is Champ, I bet. Yeah, there you go. It's the Champ. I mean, that's not why about.

This is also where split rock is and where the pictographs were found. So it kind of makes sense that this is where he is. Yeah. There's also the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum in Vermont. and it has some Champ stuff, it has history of the lake itself. It's just like interesting. You should go see it.

And then there's also the Leahy Center for Lake Champlain in Burlington, Vermont. And it's also like a little bit of an aquarium. And it has a ton of info and like folklore about Champ. It does. So you can go look at it. And then it has fish, because it's a little bit of an aquarium.

A little bit. Fish that are found in Lake Champlain. And they are ugly. So if you want to go see tanks of brown fish. Just the ugliest fish. Yeah. Go there.

go there. So that is the story of Champ. I love it. I love that so much. Little Champy. I love Champa. I love that. I love that there's proof of how much people love and respect Champ.

Because that's sort of how it was brought up too. It's like, yeah. Everybody is brought up with just such warmth in their hearts and so much pride and whatnot towards. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We're proud of Champ. Of course you have to be.

And haven't you? There was a moment where. Same. My dad and I think that we may have had an encounter with Champ. I'll tell you what happened. You buried the lead. So my parents have a boat And it's in Mallet's Bay So it's near the Well I guess like the bays are

Are nice and calm And like monsters Probably want to hang out there sometimes Yeah But we were tubing behind the boat My dad and I were on the tube And my mom was driving Normally she's not the driver

Normally my dad pulls us and breaks our legs And it's just reckless Fun But my dad was taking a turn on the tube with me And so my mom is Is driving My brother is just being a horrible scout or spot, and he's not listening to any of the hand signals or the screams that my dad and I are giving to tell them to stop because what we saw beside us as we were tubing was it looked, it was like the width of our thigh, and it was kind of like this brownish black, and it was serpenty, and it was riding the wave. So there was a few humps that we could see riding the wave next to us.

And my dad is someone that normally doesn't really want to believe in all this stuff or it'll be like, oh, it's, I mean, he's, he was like, your imagination. Yeah. Exactly. And he was also raised in like rural New Hampshire main area, like knows a lot of the wildlife. He turned to me and he said, whatever you do, do not let go, which is the scariest thing I've ever heard in my life. Because I would immediately let go back. So we're white knuckling. We're screaming, stop, stop.

My mom is thinking, ha ha. they must be having the best time. She's like, staring at us, panicking, not thinking it to signal my mom to stop. Finally she stops the ride and we get onto the boat

and we were absolutely panicked. But, I mean, that experience happened for probably only 20 seconds next to the tube before it disappeared. But oh my God, it was so freaking scary.

It is scary, but just knowing the story of Champ, I love to picture Champ like, this is fun. It was like a little juvenile transnational. I mean, we were only in probably 25-ish feet of water right there. So maybe it was just like a baby champ.

Baby champ. A little baby champ. He was playing. He was like, I like the wake you. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Going for it.

And we know some other people that have had champ sayings. But a lot of people, you know, like, don't want to. It's kind of like the thing you whisper at the party after a few bars of wine. A lot of people don't want to. Like officially report. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You have to kind of like test the waters and see who you can tell or who you don't. Because it's, you know, like a lot of people don't. don't outwardly say the things that we say. Right. We put it every day. I love a sea monster or lake monster. I'm for them.

Let's go. I'm pro-sea. All right. Let's go. We'll go on my boat and we'll go. That's one of the stops. We're going to find. This is what scares me about the ocean, though, is like Lake Champlain, you said,

like, a hundred and how many miles. Like, and there's a monster, sea monster in it. But the ocean is one, so deep. We don't even know how deep it goes and so vast that who knows how much. many monsters and cryptids that are out there that we just don't know. Yeah. I know. There's an unthinkable amount.

Yes. Too many. Monsters in the ocean. I'm sure of it. At the very bottom, southernmost point of Lake Champlain, there is a town. It's on the New York side, the town that immediately borders Vermont. And I can't remember the name of this town. But they have an annual Sasquatch Festival, calling festival where they compete to do

Sasquatch calls and someone gets picked as the winner. I've never been, but I looked it up and watched the YouTube clips of everybody doing the calls. How do they determine the winner? That's incredible. I think the crowd just votes. I feel like Sasquatch has to come. The most amount of, you're not a good color.

He just stands behind. Everyone is like, oh. Yeah. And then Champ is just like in the water. Like, what the fuck is I'm sure? He's like, this is my life. This is why I stay in the water. Every year around June, these people go so weird.

Yes. I love it. Wow. Okay, you guys, I have a, I have a tail for you. Oh, tell us a tail. And we're venturing out of the lake and to the land. of Boston, which is where we are right now. Currently.

Okay, so we're also going to step back 80 years in the past to November 20th, 1942. It is a chilly evening. 30 degrees Fahrenheit. It snowed the day before. The ground, still wet, you know, like a light dusting of snow beneath your feet. So beautiful, right? You know, Christmas time is coming. We love it.

Grab your hat, cider. Exactly. So great. Romantic. But as we know from being in Boston, like the wind whips around the corner. corners of the buildings and stuff. So it's quite chilly. Oh, yeah. And you're walking. It's night and you're chilly and you're wrapping yourself with these sheets of cloth and what, I don't know, whatever the fuck they wore in 1944 for their jackets.

I'm sure they weren't nearly as insulated as the ones that we have now. But you're pulling your coat a little bit tighter around you and you briskly make your way to Bay Village. It's Thanksgiving weekend, the first Thanksgiving since entering World War II. as well America entering World War II and you're looking to blow off some steam so you arrive at your desk absolutely I'm there I mean Thanksgiving

picture perfectly let's go all of your family it's Saturday night it's right now we're doing this after so you arrive at your destination walking up to a large sign that reads Coconut Grove and you push through the revolving doors

entering the building Coconut Grove is the spot to be. Everybody's there. Every Saturday, every Friday, everybody wants to be there. And tonight, everybody had the exact same thought that you did. The club is absolutely packed. Unfortunately, for many of the clubgoers at Coconut Grove, this would be their very last time celebrating with their friends. Coconut Grove was the premier nightclub in Boston. It was actually based on Los Angeles's club with the same name that was super, super popular. I just say that makes me think of Lucy, I love Lucy, Lucille Ball. Didn't they play it at the coconut Grove? I'm sure, probably. I think you're

right. Yeah. That sounds so funny. But I mean, it was. I mean, it was. I mean, it was. I mean, was like entirely based on the same thing. So decor wise, everything was decorated to be this tropical oasis. Very not Boston. They're absolutely not Boston. Yeah. There were multiple rooms in here too. So there were dining rooms, bars, lounges, all connected through these tight hallways and single doors. So they kept adding on extra rooms throughout the years. There was a cocktail and caricature lounge just after the entrance. You could get a little caricature drawn up at yourself. Super cool. And then a little bit further in was the dining room, a dance floor, and a stage where the jazz musicians would play. And then past the

stage there was this new lounge that had opened just the week before so you're there on that saturday that Thanksgiving weekend and it's really exciting here everybody wants to go see that that new spot there's for tan and bamboo paneling lining the walls and there's silk draped along the ceiling there's satin canopies faux leather heavy drapery it just was made to to be not only tropical but like to create the sensual elegant sophisticated feel you know you want to feel like a lot of colors pinks and yellows and too it was it was built originally 20 years before during the prohibition era in the 1920s, roaring 20s, you know, so it has a lot of that feel still.

Winding through the building, party goers could find themselves descending a narrow stairwell into the basement, and that is where you would enter the melody lounge. It was a piano bar, which was dimly lit with twinkling lights and dark blue velvet drapery that decorated the dark ceiling. It created this illusion, basically, of a starry night. Yeah. Ambience. Super ambiance.

And then the poles, like the pillars, basically, the support beams, were, you decorated to look like palm trees. And so they had, like, the base was as thick as any other palm tree trunk. And then they, they created with all of this fabric, the palms that would kind of like reach out over all the party goers. So you literally just feel like you're outside on a starry night. Absolutely. A tropical place. And I, yeah. I won't say it. I just know where this is going. So there's just like so many things that like as you're describing it. Yeah. That's all I'm thinking too. I know. Yeah. I'm like making a mental Right.

Hazard. In the jury right now. Actually, upstairs too. So downstairs they did that false story night, but upstairs, I wish Boston still had this. They had a retractable ceiling in one of the rooms. So when it was warm out, you literally could party underneath the nice guy. That's awesome. That's awesome.

We lack that now in Boston. Okay, but unsurprisingly to anybody who has ever lived in Boston, the property had mob ties, especially when it was first open during the prohibition era because they quite literally needed those and financial backing to bring in all the booze. It was a lot of bootloakers and mobsters. Moby investing. They do. Yeah, so this was a popular spot for mobsters, for politicians, for celebrities.

The club was really special. It made people feel super special. Just a super popular scene. But because it was the World War II era, money, resources, everything's a little bit tight. And so the club was especially focused and like locked. down on not letting anyone. There were no drinks on the house, right? Like they were like, no one is going to leave without paying for exactly what they need. So, so they did a lot to make sure that that happened. One of the things they did was the owner hired teenage boys off the street.

So like 15, 16 year olds were working in this club because they could, the owner could pay them really low wages and basically have them double as waiters and, and whatever odd jobs. Right. Exits were locked or concealed with. heavy velvet drapery, emergency exits bricked up, many windows locked or only opening a few inches. So basically, like, there's only one in or out way. Essentially, yeah. Yeah, because they didn't want anyone to be able to leave. So you couldn't just get your drinks and then slip out the window in the bathroom or whatever. On this particular Saturday night, the club was filled to more than twice its legal capacity with over 1,000 patrons parting inside. Too many people. It was set to have

like something like 460 people. Oh my gosh. And there's over a thousand. people. It's like wall to wall. Oh, no. Packed. Packed. Pact. Drinks are flowing. Celebrities are perched on private tables and also romance was in the air, at least for this one sailor and his date. The two were flirting very heavily and, you know, things are getting a little hot and things are getting a little heavy. She was a little shy. Probably literally hot. That's a lot of people. Totally hot and like how much velvet can you put in place. Yeah. Right. The piano player had just begun singing Bill Crosby's White Christmas. It had just come out that year. Like just So romantic, right?

So the sailor reaches up to make his date a little bit more comfortable and unscrews the light bulb from the artificial palm tree arching over them to give them a little extra bit of privacy in the dark basement of the melody lounge. The head bartender down there sees the light go out in the corner and then tells the 16-year-old bar boy Stanley Thomas, let me not butcher his last name, Tomozuski, to take care of the light. So Stanley makes his way over there. He approaches this couple. He explains that it's dangerous to have the light out. Like you can't just do whatever we want. You can't remove light bulbs. Right. Yes. You pay rent here. Exactly. And he was like, okay, I need to relight it. So he lights a match because he can't see. It's super dark. He doesn't have a flashlight. He lights a match so he can see what he's doing. He replaces the light bulb, blows out the match, drops it on the floor, steps on it, returns to what he was doing before. Just moments later, someone screamed that there's a fire on the palm tree. So Stanley and the other employees all run to the tree. They have pictures of water. They're dousing the fire with these pictures of water.

And for a moment, everyone thinks it's kind of funny. Like, it's a little bit silly to, like, watch everybody scramble. It looks like the tree has been put out. Put out. Yeah. It's like it's been resolved. The very quickly panic ensues and everyone watches the fabric. It's velvet.

Yep. All of the satin and velvet that's on the ceiling. it starts to smoke and then it ignites. In a giant ball of fire explodes in this corner and very quickly starts spreading onto the rest of the fabric on the ceiling and making its way across the floor to the staircase. I mean, as you were describing it, I'm just immediately thinking everything in this place makes a fire.

It's flammable. Oh, yeah. Like travel so much faster. This is a craft store. Yeah, basically. Like, everything is felt. I'm picturing it in my head. Yeah.

Yes. Instantly. Yeah. Yeah. And also just to add a little bit of information. Like when they first opened to this place, they did put some like fire retardant spray on all of the fabric but had never done it again. So like that wears off. It wears off.

Right. Yes. So desperate, people are running for this tiny little staircase and other people are jumping up on chairs, trying to cut down the fabric from the ceiling to prevent the fire from making its way. through the whole room. That is really brave of those people to do that. Seriously. But it only takes a few moments for the fire to overtake the entire room, the satin fabric burning and falling while still lit onto the panicked 400-some patrons below in the Melody Lounge. The air conditioning or an air conditioning unit had actually just been recently put in upstairs. And because of World War II,

they switched the gas because it was too expensive to use whatever they were using before. and switched it to one that was much more flammable. So basically, it's believed that this helped ignite the fire and also create this suction for the fire to travel across them very quickly and up the stairs to the first war. It's like the perfect storm. It really is. It's awful. So the narrow staircase became jammed with people.

The fire now taking on the fabric in the stairwell. There was a couple Ruth and Hyman Straugoff who they first made their way to the exit as soon as they saw the palm tree ignite. So they were kind of like, oh, we don't want to take any. risks and made their way over to the exit. So they're the very first people, basically, to be at the stairwell. But this all happened so quickly that by the time they got to the stairwell, other people were already running for them, grabbing them, pulling them back, ripping them away from each other. Ruth tries to grab Hyman as he's pinned down on the ground from other

people trying to go over him. He's crawled over. This is so devastating. It is. I mean, I cried. I like woke up this morning and was like why did I choose to research or should I like really quickly find something else it it really is so many people lost their lives in this moment in really awful ways but basically Iman was crushed beneath their feet and she was pushed forward her hat and jacket now on fire from the embers that floated down from above her the fiery air was now burning people's skin in their lungs oh my god yeah because it's one exit there's only one way out of this place The tiniest. I mean, like, think of like your grandparents stare well. Like, it was like half of that.

And you don't think about that air, too. No. No. That air is just as dangerous as. Absolutely. So moments after Ruth got out, others were already dead from being crushed by the crowd, burned or inhaling too much smoke. It happened so quickly that some people didn't even have time to react. They were found later by the firefighters who entered the space still seated at their tables.

Oh, my God. Those in the back of the crowd were still pushing forward, trying to be found. to climb over now a pile of bodies beneath them. And many, many people had to make the impossible choices to leave to love ones behind. So many friends, lovers, spouses separated forever. Bartender Daniel Weiss and singer-sach pianist Goudel were two of the last people to make it out of the Melody Lounge alive. And they did so because they ended up grabbing napkins and dumping them in pictures of water and holding that over their mouths so that they didn't succumb to the smoke. Imagine having like the wherewithal.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. To do that. Five other people found a walk-in refrigerator and locked themselves in there until the fire department rescued them. So they survived that way. Wow. The remaining patrons ran around this complex. Remember, there's like a bunch of different rooms with tiny little stairwells.

There's no clear way. Yes. I mean, there's Draper. I also imagine there's no exit signs like they are today. And too, if you did end up peeling back the fabric and, finding a door more likely than not. I believe six of the nine doors were locked and the majority of the windows were inescapable. And you said somewhere like bricked up too.

Somewhere bricked up. Yeah. So even if you find something, it doesn't mean that you should get out. Yes. So everybody's scrambling. They're running onto the first floor. The people on the first floor of the club are hearing people below them screaming and then finally realize like once the plume of smoke and fire comes into their rooms,

like what is happening? And now it's just a sea of people. over a thousand people trying to get out basically out of one door, the front door. Oh, my gosh. And because of the mob's political ties, a lot of the expansions in the buildings, basically, it's kind of like a tough situation because some people were like, oh, it was the mob basically taking advantage of their position and making illegal moves to expand and to make more money and whatever. But then at the same time, there were, it was new.

Like clubs were new. There weren't a lot of regulations. The fire department had actually come and recently inspected like two weeks before or something and said everything was fine. Like it literally like quote unquote like past code. So things were different. Things were totally different. Yeah. But basically like it was so tightly packed. People had to turn sideways to even step around where they were supposed to be.

And then there's a sea of people rushing towards them. Those that made it to the front door experienced the same terror as they did in the basement. the revolving door, filling with people, burned, scarred, shoving each other forward. The door jams. No. So people can't get through it. Oh, my gosh. But everybody is climbing over each other now, like pushing, pushing forward.

So what happened was it basically, even though it jammed, it like removed itself, I guess, like with the weight and the pressure, it came undone from the building structure. And it fell forward. And so now you would think, like, it. everybody gets to escape and and collapse forward onto the sidewalk. Are they stuck in there still? What happens is the fire reacts to the new oxygen and basically it gets sucked out. And so there's like a fireball that goes through and basically like pretty much kills a lot of the people that for a split second thought that they'd made it to freedom. Oh my gosh.

Another horrible thing to add. I mean, I'm so sorry I chose this. This is like wild. Yeah, it is. another sad thing to add to this is right next to the revolving door there actually was another exit but they had built a coat rack around it and put a coat hanger in some like velvet in front of it to hide it so if anyone knew that it was there so many people could have escaped through that exit wow so the hot gases the extreme heat their ankle thing every hallway every stairwell every room it burned people past recognition the entire club was up in flames within 15 minutes of the initial spark. And firefighters were actually, yeah, they were only three blocks away because they were actually responding to a different fire at the time. So they got onto the scene super, super

quickly. But at this point, it was basically like a body recovery mission and to extinguish the fire. The entrance now blocked by people who didn't make it out, sadly. It was stacked five feet high with people. So they had a lot of trouble getting into the building. It just all happened so quickly. So 30 minutes after the initial spark, the fire is extinguished and the removal of these bodies extremely graphic and disturbing for those who had to do it and those who witnessed it. I can't fathom that. That would change you forever. Absolutely. Well, actually, so some of the people are still alive today who did escape this incident. It's here in Boston. I mean, they're. Man, I can't imagine that. It's like the people that were like 14, 15 years old going out in the club. Oh, wow.

a lot of them too said that they like can't enter restaurants we'll never go to a theater like that's so traumatic yeah yeah I don't think I would ever be able to no wherever you did you would have to be like next to an exit yeah yeah you'd need to know like every possible way out 1,000 percent you couldn't enjoy yourself you would just be thinking about it the whole time yeah so some of the people that were pulled from the building were still alive but firefighters police officers and volunteer military didn't have time to examine or sort out who was still alive so basically they were just piling everybody in into these vans and transporting them to local hospitals. And then upon retrieval, the hospitals had to sort out who had already passed. So you might be alive in a van with like a whole stack of dead people. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh.

114 people are sent to Massachusetts General Hospital. 75 of them had passed away. Wow. 300 people are sent to Boston City Hospital. 168 of them had already passed away. Oh, my gosh. 36 others didn't make it through the night. Wow.

For many people, the horror did not end when they got outside. People still alive and piled on the sidewalks before transport were attacked by these atrocious human beings. What? People that were like opportunistic, stripped naked, robbed. What? What the fuck? Are you what? Doesn't this make you like heat?

And it's November. So it's cold. Yeah. Oh my gosh. They're like barely alive waiting to be saved. And these people are like, oh, let me go steal that pocket watch. It's so fucked up. The whole thing is so disturbing, but that is like disgusting.

It makes you sick. It makes you sick. It makes you sick. It's like, because that is just like, wow. Humans are the worst. Yeah. Yes. Humans are the worst. Yeah.

Also, some victims, although most people are transported to the hospitals that are alive, some victims are loaded into vehicles and brought to temporary morg's first, only then to be recognized is still alive once they're at the morgue. And then more transportation has to be arranged for them to make it onto the hospital. And then you think, like, you could be in one van and you're separated from whoever you went there with. And you're wondering if they're dead or alive. Right.

And there's a lot of people, too. I'm sure there was additional deaths that happened after because some people who didn't appear to have as many injuries just went home. And if you know about smoking inhalation and stuff. That can get you later. Yes, exactly. And just thinking about being like separated, like a husband and wife or like, you know, just spouses of any kind or people that you love and like you get separated in the chaos,

like that's the most horrifying song to me because when something happens, if I'm with John, I like, claim. Yeah, you need to. It's your safety. Yeah. God forbid someone's in the bathroom or going and getting a drink. Oh, yeah. You can't find.

You have no idea. What are you supposed to do? I can't even imagine that, like, feeling of panic. Yeah. No. And you don't even have a split second to think about it. No, no. You got to act.

Right. Somehow. So in the end, 492 people lost their lives at night. 116 more were injured, and it is the deadliest nightclub fire in U.S. history. The youngest victim, Ellen, Champa was just 15 years old. So amazingly, everybody who did pass away was identified. And so we know everybody's names.

And you can read a lot about the victims online, about their stories, the lives that they led, the people who lived on past them, the people and their legacies that were left behind. And so there's amazing survival stories mixed in with this as well. but it's really, really sad. Like, this is when I was crying because I was reading about, there's so many examples where, like, people just gotten married and they were out with their entire wedding party

to celebrate their first night of marriage. There were soldiers who came home, and for the night, their friends and their family took them out to celebrate for their, like, first night. Yes. Entire families are killed all in just an instant.

It's just, it's so painful to read about. Oh, it's awful. So, I mean, yeah, it's awful. The owner of Coconut at Grove, Barney Walanski, he had actually had a heart attack and was being treated in mass gen that night. Oh, so he wasn't there. Oh, separately.

Separately. He had a heart attack the same night. How weird is that? Yeah. So then all of the, like, victims are being wheeled past him, basically. Yeah. So he's sentenced to 12 to 15 years in prison for negligent homicide and is convicted of 19 counts of manslaughter.

Wow. Only 19, though? I was going to say. Yeah. That's wild. He was pardoned three years into a sentence after being diagnosed with lung cancer and died just a few weeks later. Whoa. Other people involved in the design of the building and the upkeep received various charges as well.

And this was kind of tricky sentencing because like I said before, it was like, okay, like we want to blame Wolanski. But there's a lot of other people that were involved that said that this was okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just him like pulling every shot. Exactly. Naturally, the politicians and city inspectors, they want to pass. blame around. They're excusing themselves of any guilt. And poor 16-year-old Stanley, who lit that

initial flame, everybody is so, like, he came forward and was like, here's what happened. He survived. And he tried to tell everyone, like, I think that this might have been the cause of the fire. And he is, I mean, everybody is like on top of him. He's vilified by so many people. Exactly. He was just doing what he thought he was supposed to be doing. That's the thing. He's like, yeah. Yes. So the poor guy, he actually had to be kept. under protective watch in the hotel for many months. Because it was easier for people to blame the 16-year-old than to, like, recognize that they were just partying a death trap.

And he didn't lay out the club and, like, break up all the exits, you know? Exactly. Okay. So this event, though, extremely tragic, it did some good as well. Because despite the number of deaths at the hospital, the hospitals were actually pretty equipped for the amount of people coming in because they had been prepping for the war. And so they had a lot of people on call and had a lot of protocols already. set to take on this number of people.

Victims with burned wounds were losing a large amount of water and plasma and going into shock. And blood donations were a very new thing. They had only been around for four years. And so they didn't really know how much plasma was needed, like how much blood to give someone to replenish people's bodies. But based on the treatment of 19 coconut grove survivors, a paper was published establishing the formula for fluid replenishment. Wow. That kind of gave me chills. Right. Yeah.

That's huge. Yeah. And despite the initial guesswork and experimental protocols, no one died of burned wounds at MGH, MassGen. But a third of the people treated at Boston City Hospital unfortunately did pass all night. This was also the first time in Boston that they used penicillin. So they were rushing it up from New Jersey to help the burn victims who were receiving another new treatment, which was skin grafts. So it was like all of this stuff was being experimented and happening all at once. Everything they had learned they were using it.

Yes, yes. And on top of this, psychological treatment for grief and trauma broke new ground, creating a foundation for providing psychological care after disasters because of this event. Wow. Jeez, I didn't know any of this. This event, me neither. It's like wild. I'm like, wow, this is, I mean, awful what happened, but like this is a little hub of so many of the things that now we have as normal practices today. This event also led to new laws and fire safety bills enacted surrounding emergency exits, occupancy numbers, fire.

code violations and flammable decorations and though hundreds of people died it's thought that what was learned both medically psychologically and structurally from this one event saved hundreds of thousands of other people through the codes and regulations that came of it wow and then took it to the ghost stories as Sabrina and i have learned through now five years of podcast research is that unfortunately when there are these traumatic events there usually is a bit of paranormal activity that comes after that. Of course. A lot of unrest.

Right. The energy is stained from this event. And sometimes there are darker entities that kind of feed on the trauma that exists in this space. So the area that this happened at has since been reconfigured. And the primary site for Coconut Grove is now actually the Revere Hotel. Oh. It's just two blocks from the theater district. So if you guys play a show in Boston, I'm sure you'll probably be at one of the theater district.

And yeah, so if anyone, for future reference, it's like a three-minute walking tour. All right. Yes. There's a memorial plaque there as well so you can read about it and read basically right where it had happened. But employees and guests of the Revere Hotel report strange ghostly phenomena inside this hotel. The bar and kitchen experience the most activity with strange noises, loud popping sounds, and flashes of light happening suddenly and seemingly without a source. that feels like very. That's probably like the lower grounds of the hotel anyway, right? Bar and Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. We're going to go get a drink. And so what is it? And just see. Fossits in the bathrooms will turn on and off on their own. And one time, this is so, this makes me just like, this feels like something that must have happened when the fire was occurring. But a seat in an auditorium became suddenly and inexplicably drenched with water. So I'm just like, I just feel like it's some sort of like residual haunting.

where someone's trying to douse their seat, right? It's like what they were doing. Maybe that's where the palm tree was. They were trying to douse it. Yes. Ooh. Yeah. People also hear their names being called out only to find themselves alone in the room.

And many employees have actually spotted a shadowy figure of a man walking down the hallway and past doorways. And when the employees approach him, he begins to fade away until he's no longer there. Wow. Both employees and guests have witnessed people materialized out of thin air, appearing to be confused, wandering. around the hotel for a few moments before disappearing, I know. And they look lost. They look like they're looking for someone.

Right. I know. Next door, the Jacques cabaret. Shack's cabaret. I'm really better. My bachelorette. Really? Yeah.

He had no idea. You're right next door. Did you have any haunted encounters? No, I didn't meet Katia, the drag queen, though. Oh. It was when she was in her Jacques days. No way. It was great bachelor.

That is amazing. Okay. I mean, if you have a connection to Katia, you should ask if she's ever experienced anything when working there. I think she used to live above it, so she probably does. I mean, that building, like where that is was the temporary morgue for the Coconut Grove. I think it was either Katia that lived above or Ju-Jubi that lived above it. I feel like it was Katia. I think, yeah, I'm pretty sure.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that was my natural art party. Wow. Look at this. Look at this. Yeah. We just knew. Yeah.

We just knew. Oh, damn. But so people here, wait, where am I? Wait a second. Oh, okay. So people experience hauntings in this building too because it was used as a temporary morgue and they do experience some more disturbing spectral images. So at the Revere Hotel, you'll mostly get like glimpses of shadows and confuse people

and like odds and ends with fire and water and those things being manipulated. But a bartender walked into the dark bar here at Jacques Cabral. and saw, this is really disturbing, but saw a pile of bodies. No. Quickly turns on the light and the image disappeared. The room was back to normal. I just got full chills. Yes.

My body just said that thing where it goes, warm. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so obviously. Right. It's just so, so sad what happened to these people and this fire. And I know a lot of good came of the advancements like medically and code-wise. but it's still absolutely tragic.

But to put like a hopeful, positive spin on what's otherwise the saddest story ever told in history with like these spirits still wandering, Sabrina and I recently learned about or had some theories presented to us where the hauntings, where when people say like, oh, there's a residual haunting or like I see these people wandering the hotel, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's like them consciously haunting that. But when a traumatic event happens, it's possible that a piece of your soul splinters off and relives that trauma. So, like, technically, by that regard, like, you could be haunting someplace. Even though you're alive right now, if something traumatic happened to you, a piece of your soul could splinter off and start haunting this one place. Which I'm haunting somewhere. I don't know. Right.

You could be haunting yourself and not necessarily know it. Like haunting a hillhouse. Like that. Yes. And so I do hope for the sake of these people that their spirits did move on and that what is seen is just unfortunately a splinter of that, a small piece of them left behind. It's just like the heavy energy that was left behind. Yeah. I've never heard of that.

That's like fascinating. Super fascinating. I actually, one of my old coworkers does, she's super spiritual, super in tune. Like can read people is extremely experienced psychically and within the actual realm. And she actually works with a therapist to help people who is. experience trauma to go into the astral realm basically and find these splintered pieces of people and reattach them back to their soul so that they can kind of like do this healing. And so I do hope that the people here that lost their lives in Coconut Grove or just have

splinters of themselves still existing here eventually get that for themselves and are returned and made whole again. Yeah. Holy shit. Wow. So a tragic story. That is. heard of that story. I've just never heard like the actual details of it. Oh my gosh.

Like I knew that case. And you can read so much about the victims too. So I'm glad you can read about them. Yeah. I know. That's what makes it special. And the fact that they were able to identify everything. I know that is like a miracle. Yeah. I didn't expect to you. Yeah. I didn't think you were going to say that. And go mass gin. Right? Go mass Jen. I mean, yeah. I feel bad for everyone that was at Boston. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. Mass Jen. I mean. Wow. Wow. This place is haunted. Yeah. Damn.

Pretty rough. You brought it. Pretty rough. You brought it. Right next to that plaque, you can go see where Edgar Allan Poe was born. There you go. Everything's right there. Then you can go to Jacques Cabaret.

Yeah. Then Shox Cabaret and then maybe a more of a live show in the future. Yeah. You never know. I mean, pretty much anywhere you go in Boston, you're bound to find something that's haunted. I'm actually staying at the Omni Parker Hotel, which is haunted. Oh, damn. Yeah.

And last night, Nick and I ran the elevator and someone got off or got onto the elevator from the third floor and was like, this is supposed to be that most haunted floor. And then someone else in the elevator goes, actually the 10th floor is supposed to be the most haunted. And I look at Nick and we're like, we're staying on the 10th floor. Oh, my God. I love that hotel. It's beautiful. It's insane. There's a ton of stories about that hotel.

So far, no experiences. But knock on wood. Yeah, it's her husband next time in Boston. And basically like my tour for them on foot yesterday was like, this is where this murder happened. This is where this, like, it was all haunting and crime. It was like very little. Welcome to Boston. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Wow. So, but I should have had you go second. I was such a load. Maybe we should be on champ.

I don't know. Yeah, me and Ash had the, had the darker. You did. It was funny. I was thinking, I was like, is this like a little too dark? I know. Then you brought it. But it's also these are important stories to tell.

Oh, for sure. Because, you know, your story was a cold case. You know, it's important. to tell the stories and then also all these people who lost their lives like it's awful but it's also an important story and to show the advances that came from it right and I love how you ended it like I never would have known that

so yeah I'm glad that you picked this story yeah yeah so that's really interesting well this was so fun I know we should do this again yeah absolutely next time we will get in the RV and we will do a podcast on her cryptid hunt I was saying at the end of the the last one that we recorded, I was like, finally, because we all live so close to each other. Like, how did this take that long?

Yeah. I'll fly out to Boston any time. How amazing. I love Boston. We're making it happen again. Yeah. We'll just bring you back here. Yeah.

Well, Corin, this whole trip has been like trying to make me move here. Yes. It's like how we are with Caleb. I was going to say, we're going to start bringing you over. Yeah. Right. That's what we're doing with Caleb, our co-host on Scream. We got him from California.

We got them to Indiana. Okay. And that was way closer. Yeah. Pulling them closer. We're in the same time zone. Oh, my gosh. Indiana, another very haunted.

Like at that point, just moved to Boston. Yeah. Just keep from Massachusetts. Amazing. We'll do the same with you. We'll slowly get in Indiana. Just do it. Corinna does, like, text me real estate listings all the time.

I love that. And then we'll just like keep getting closer and closer and closer to you. I'll move out of Boston into your spooky spare bedroom. Yes. Perfect. Collect, mister. Yeah. It was a lot of this.

Me and Mr. Yeah. You'll find out. He can always find you. Oh, God. No. I'm such a chicken. I would never be able to do that.

Oh, he'll find us. He'll find us. I was like, girl, you were three. Who gave you permission? Oh, my God. It's a little spooky kid. She's not scared at all. Wow.

Nope. No, but thank you guys so much. We're going to do this again. We should. Definitely. And you guys listening, we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But that's where that we don't all end up in Boston together.

Woo! Woo! Yay! The end.