Morbid - The Murder of Carol Thompson

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

When thirty-four-year-old St. Paul housewife Carol Thompson was murdered in the spring of 1963, her entire neighborhood was shocked by the evil that had invaded their middle-class neighborhood. As far as anyone knew, Carol was a happily married mother of four who appeared to have it all, but the cruel brutality of her murder suggested someone had hated her enough to kill her.When investigators began to dig deeper into Carol’s life and background, they found the truth was that, far from the happy façade she showed the world, Carol Thompson’s life was anything but happy. In the weeks that followed her death, investigators would uncover an unexpectedly complicated conspiracy involving several well-known criminals, all leading back to the one person no one wanted to suspect.Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesAssociated Press. 1963. "Slaying details related in court." New York Times, November 27: 49.—. 1963. "Woman is linked to 'hire' murder." New York Times, November 5: 17.2016. A Crime to Remember. Directed by Tony Glazer. Performed by Chloe Boxer and Christine Connor.Cesnik, Jim. 1963. "'Cotton' Thompson--as father, friend." Minneapolis Star, June 25: 1.Letofsky, Irv. 1963. "Never an acquittal vote." Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), December 7: 1.Letofsky, Irv, and Jim Cesnik. 1963. "City man held in Phoenix in Thompson slaying case." Star Tribune, April 20: 1.Minneapolis Star. 1963. "FBI to check policies on Mrs. Thompson's life." Minneapolis Star , April 3: 1.—. 1963. "St. Paul mother 'critical' after stabbing in home." Minneapolis Star, March 6: 1.—. 1963. "Thompson arrested in wife's slaying." Minneapolis Star, June 21: 1.Presbrey, Paul. 1963. "Thompson killing gun identified." Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), April 10: 1.Roberts, Sam. 2015. "T. Eugene Thompson dies at 88; crime stunned St. Paul." New York Times, September 6: 28.Romer, Sam. 1963. "Interview with captured suspect." Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), April 20: 1.Rudick, Irvin. 1963. "Anderson told Sharp he slew Mrs. Thompson." Minneapolis Star, April 23: 1.Star Tribune. 1963. "Police seek clues in St. Paul slaying." Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), March 7: 1.—. 1963. "Police want more talk with victim's mate." Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), March 23: 1.—. 1963. "Statement also lists his assets." Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), March 27: 1.Thompson, William. 2007. Dial M: The Murder of Carol Thompson. Nepean, ON: Borealis Books.United Press International. 1963. "Thompson trial told of insurance." New York Times, November 6: 29.Young, Douglas. 1963. "Husband of slain St. Paul woman explains $1,061,00 in insurance." Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), March 27: 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Some occult edition. Ooh. Yeah. Fun. I'm just going to hit a cult. This is like kind of a cult. It's like they consider themselves a cult, but they're kind of like cult. They're not even cult like because they're pretty cult heavy, but like, I don't know. You'll get it when you. Well, you'll get it when you get it. At first I thought you said they're not even cult like because they're pretty cult heavy. And I was like, wouldn't not make them cult heavy. tea then. No, they're not called light. Light. Like I wouldn't call them like I wouldn't even call them off-brand cult.

It's like they're just like a cults that has Aspartame in it. Oh, so they're diet Colts. Yeah, like Diet Colt like it tastes really disgusting but it does a lot of damage. I mean, I like Diet Coke, but Aspartame is really bad for you. Yo, Brian, I'm trying to drink Aspartame. If you don't know

what I'm talking about, you should. So that's what they are. They're diet, they're like the Diet soda of cults where it's bad but it's like not the same as the regular but it's somehow worse for you okay yeah that's what they are all right that was a journey and we got there on it we got there you know it's been a week guys it's been a week is anyone else dealing as like parents are you dealing with like tons of school viruses apparently there's like a shit ton of them going around and we've managed to get away from a lot of them but they are weird and like quick and really just a big pain in the ass i'm really

excited that the kids are almost done with kindergarten for like a minute but then I'm like just summer camps have their own viruses too of course they do they're they're probably worse they're probably like mutants anytime you gather kids together it's just a petri dish stop gathering yeah kids together let's all just let's all just no we already did that yeah no we didn't though yeah honestly that is the problem but you know what here we are talking about diet cults how's everybody feeling loopie we We keep seeing everybody getting their merch. That is pretty cool.

So exciting. Everybody looks gorge in their merch. I'm so happy. And I'm so happy to hear that it's soft. And because that was like our biggest thing. We were like, it needs to be soft. I want to feel it. Cozy, comfy, silky silhouettes everywhere.

That's exactly what we're looking for. And you know what? You guys are serving it up for us, like back to us at least. Serving sultry silhouette. Yeah. Surrealness. Srealness. hissing.

So yeah, this is going to be a really gnarly one. Just want to. Well, it is you. Want to be clear. This is like not super old-timey, but like for anybody, I think my age, it's going to feel like, oh, that was just 10 years ago because it's from 1991. I wasn't even alive. But like, it's probably a little old-timey to everyone else.

Just not as old-timey as I usually go. So we're going to take you back to September 25th, 1991. and we are going to talk about the Carney cult. Ooh. I know. Immediately you're like, ooh. Yeah, I'm scared. Ooh.

A Kearney cult, I can see why it's worse for you than a regular cult. It is. See, it's got its own thing. Now, the guys involved in this whole thing are Jimmy Lee Pennick, Mark Goodwin, and brothers Keith and David Lawrence. They were in a satanic cult. They started the whole thing. They claimed they were working off of Anton LeVay's satanic body.

I think they were just assholes. But, you know, like, I think we'll all make a decision at the end of this. Now, Jimmy kind of, there's always one that becomes kind of the de facto leader of these kind of things. Yeah, every cult needs a leader. Every cult needs a leader. I don't even know if he was actually the cult leader, but he definitely got, like, he was the one that everybody kind of remembers from this.

He was really the one who did the most, like, dirty work, too. And he seemed to have a past of doing dirty work and doing. bad things and hurting people and straight up murder. This is not his first rodeo that we're going to talk about. Oh. Yeah. Like this is not his first rodeo and it's not his first ritual sacrifice. Okay.

Yeah. But Mark Goodwin had been into this Satan shit for a long time. I think Jimmy was kind of just like joining it just as like whatever when he got older like into his 20s. But Mark Goodwin, he was the one that was into it since like elementary school. Damn. Yeah, which is like pretty early to get into Satanism, I would say. I would say so. I mean, yeah. Yeah, you know, I just feel like, okay, like how did that occur?

But teachers and other students said he was super into it. He was like straight up at 12 years old, like drawing inverted crosses on things. What? Which to me, I'm pretty sure. And like if you hear his background a little bit, you can hear he was into like metal music, like Ozzy Osbourne and shit. That was on CD covers. Yeah. So I don't think that was like really.

To be honest, I don't think that was an indicator of what he was capable of later in life. I think it was like he liked the music. He saw the imagery. That's probably what everybody's like, he was a Satanist when he was 12. Yeah. But then we have some stuff that points to him actually being a Satanist when he was younger. Such as. Like I said, he was intrigued by like dark shit at a pretty young age, but he went bad with it.

Like, you know, we can't. Who gives a shit if somebody's into like weird shit when they're young? Yeah, I wanted to be a witch. when I was little. Yeah. Like I was into really weird shit when I was young. I'm still into really weird shit. I'm not going to murder anybody.

No. And I haven't done it before. So it's to let's, you know, I always try to, I hate when it's like put on that. Like he was into dark shit when he was younger. So of course this was going to happen. No one cares. Right. Like he was into metal and all the things that they tried to point to in the West Memphis three case.

Like they wore black. He did this. But he was more interested not like, you look at the West Memphis three case, for example. It's just like a really good example of the satanic panic kind of thing. Oh, yeah. Which by the way, quick side note, anybody watching Stranger Things, thank you for telling me that Eddie's character is based off of Damien from the West Memphis 3 because holy shit I can't watch it the same anymore. Like I was already invested, but now I'm like, I loved Eddie. And I was like, now I feel validated for loving Eddie.

I didn't realize that. It's great. Everybody will watch Stranger Things if you hadn't. And to everybody who's been tagging me telling me about Eddie's character being connected. to that. Thank you because I had no idea. And I am watching it in a whole different light now. But yeah, go look at that. So, so yeah, they kind of pointed, I look at the West Memphis three cases, like those were kids that sure, maybe they got in a little trouble and they're like tiny little, you know, Arkansas town where you get in trouble for everything. But they weren't like hurting people.

They weren't killing people. They weren't sacrificing animals. They were wearing black and listening to metal. Right. Like that's all that. And they were into like horror movies. And they got peasant. as like Satanus. But it seems like Mark Goodwin when he was younger, he wasn't into all that kind of side of it, the music, the horror movies, the aesthetic, all that stuff. He really wanted to gain power over people. Like he wanted Satan's power.

He wanted to sell his soul. Yeah, like he was interested in the dark shit that like the satanic panic like tries to latch onto. He was not into it for like aesthetic. He had read a lot of books about satanic worship and he had formed his own like meathead ideas that like ritual sacrifices and murder were part of the whole saying and that that's what it takes to gain power and blah. Like basically he's just stupid and that's where he went with it.

So at 15, Goodwin formed his own cult called Satan's Disciples. Wow. Which first of all, that wow, you're 15. Second of all, that is the stupidest name for a cult I have ever heard in my life. It is so on the fucking nose. Right. Like so on the nose. Oh, hey, we're Satan's disciples.

I know. If Satan was in the room, he'd be like, that's what you came up with. That's all you got. Right. He'd be pissed. Satan's disciple? Like, that's just dumb. I was like, come on.

Yeah. Ready, go. What? Colt name. Go. Oh, shit. Okay. Hold on.

Oh. You put me on the spot. Oh, no. Okay. Oh, that's a good one. I like that. I think that's a great one. Hey, guys, we're.

there it is that's our cult it's hilarious it explains exactly what we're all about and it's creative and it's scary it is yeah i get it but yeah satan's disciples no no thank you um so this little cult had it started off with about six people between the ages of 12 he was 15 by the way weird between the ages of 12 and 35 the fuck yeah how did did you know a 35-year-olds? Not sure why a 35-year-old was hanging out with 12-year-olds and 15-year-olds. No good reason. I can tell you that much. Well, and apparently they would meet and perform rituals in old barns and abandoned cemeteries and in forests, anywhere that's spooky-uky and seems right

on the nose for a Satanist cult. I want to know what satanic rituals are other than sacrifices. Like, what are the other ones? Yeah, there has to be other ones here. Because you only hear about sacrifices, because that's just scary in what is associated with it. Yeah, I want to know what other kinds there are. I'm going to look into that. Yeah, there's probably a zillion other ones. They probably don't really even do so, to be quite honest. Right. Well, that's the thing. Like, rituals are probably not really part of it, to be quite honest, but I'm not sure. It just seems very like, it's all, we talk about this all the time, that like, you know, every religion that, like, gets that, like, stereotype placed on them of what people think

that religion is and Satanism is no different. Yeah. And it's usually not right. Like not true, not correct. It's just what is put out there in the media or in, you know, popular culture, whatever. Satanism just happens to have gotten like a real bad rap for like, ever. It's just like what people think it is. It's too many generalizations.

It is. We generalize too many things in general. General. See how meta that was? We are generalizing too much in general. I feel like it's just like the world is generalizing people and things and ideas. Generalizing is losing all meaning in my head. In general, it really is.

I won't get too far into that, don't worry. But either way, they're doing all these rituals, blah, blah, blah. Goodwin was obviously the leader and would act like the high priest of the cults. Oh, he was so fancy. He loves his power and authority. Now, the group would sacrifice animals for the rituals. Oh, fuck off. More than once a week.

according to. Jesus. Now, for example, in this trigger warning for Ash 2, to be quite honest, I am going to talk. I'm not going to go into detail, don't worry, but I'm just going to mention an animal that was killed here. So, trigger warning. Okay.

For example, one of the rituals included killing a cat and then putting its blood into fancy goblets and they all drank it to summon demons to do their bidding. That's stupid and rude and fucked up. so incredibly dangerous, I'm sure. Thank you. All of the above. Yeah, like, get out of here. And it's like, I never understand this.

Like, we're trying to summon demons to do our bidding. Maybe this is like me being a Capricorn or like me being my personality type that like I have a control issue. I'm not summoning anybody to do my shit for me. No, you're not. I could never hand over control to a demon for them to do what I need. I'll get it done. Want something done, do it yourself.

That's just too tricky. Because like you're not supposed to trust a demon. No, of course not. You can't trust anybody. No, I don't even trust you. I say it all the time. You want something done. You got to do it yourself.

You want it done right. I found that. You do it yourself. I have found that. I love DIY. There you go. Now a word from our sponsor, better help. I feel like I've been hearing so much more about burnout lately.

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roles in our life can lead us to be burned out. Like if you're a mom, you're probably burned the F out. If you're a dad, you're probably burned the F out. If you're a human, you're just tired, you're burned out. But BetterHelp Online Therapy wants to remind you to prioritize yourself. And talking with somebody can help you figure out what is causing the stress in your life. I, like you guys know, I'm a big proponent of therapy. I think just having some time to talk to somebody about all the things that are going on in your life doesn't, it makes it so that you don't feel so overwhelmed all the time and you're actually letting that out. Because you wouldn't believe what happens when you start to bury stuff and bury stuff and

bury stuff eventually it's all going to come out and you're going to lose your dang mind. Well, BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. It is much more affordable than in-person therapy and you can be matched with a licensed therapist in under 48 hours. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash morbid. that's better H-E-L-P-com

slash morbid but no they are stupid and they want you know demons to come out and do shit for them which is just like okay now Goodwin also said that members of the cult wore black robes because

metal but the women in the group were not allowed to wear robes lame they had to wear black lingerie or had to be just naked fuck right off with that that's what i'm saying that mark get the fuck out of here we know exactly what you're doing marky mark of course we know you which like why would you do that like why would you sign up for that here's the thing if people want to be naked then get it like be naked do whatever you

want if that's your thing like by all means go be naked i don't care but don't let a dude tell you that you have to be but that should not be the dress code right that should not be a dress code somewhere you decide if you want to be naked if you're cool with it you go that's also just not a dress code because you're not dressed. Yeah, that's dumb. Black lingerie. Yeah, yeah. Now, they later said, weirdly, they had a lot of trouble getting women to join the group. I wonder why. I can't imagine why. They were like, yeah, women are just like a little scarred of satinism. No, I think we're just like done with being objectified. Like, bro, I think it's you and your weird band of predators that scared them off and not the Satanism part, but like, okay. Whatever you want to think.

Sure. Anyways, Goodwin said that there would always be a huge orgy and everyone would dance around while they satanic chorus sang. I believe it. For sure. I think all of that happens. Absolutely. For sure. Now, Goodwin said that he actually left the satanic disciples at one point because one of them suggested that they kill an innocent person. And he was like, no.

And they suggested a baby for a ritual. And he wasn't down for that. He literally said, quote, to kill a kid for a ritual that lasts maybe three hours and that kid's life is gone for good, that's pointless. Agreed. Yeah, we all agree, Mark. But you said he had killed other people before? No, that was Jimmy. Oh, okay.

But Mark ends up being part of like a very bad thing where someone dies. And it's like, Mark, where was that energy in 1991? Keep that energy around you at all times that you shouldn't kill people. He's a conundrum. Now, the brothers, Keith and David Lawrence are up next. I'll tell you about them. Keith Lawrence was a Satanist for a while, but his brother David, who is three years older than him, was not at all. David tried to say that that, you know, heavy metal was what brought Keith into Satanism. That was his whole thing, because once again, that's how this all starts.

Pop culture made me do it. Pop culture made me do it. It's not me being a shitty person. But, you know, I'm going to call bullshit on that. Apparently, though, Keith did take music very seriously. and really probably was influenced because of his own mind and mind and not the actual lyrics or music himself. He just liked music. So, of course.

He was also big into reading tons of book about Satan, tons of book. Just tons of book about Satan. That, you know, many book. He read tons of books about Satanism. And he really dove headfirst into it once he started. So he just got really interested in it, which would be fine. If he just got interested in it, wanted to learn about it, wanted to do whatever.

But David said that once Keith got really into this, his personality changed drastically. He said he became a more hateful, more aggressive person. He said he hated everybody and everything around him. And he would do things like simply to get people upset. He liked upsetting people. He was actually so upset that David didn't want to become a Satanist, Keith was. He was like, why is my brother not a Satanist? That one day during an argument about this topic at hand, he grabbed a kitchen.

he grabbed a kitchen knife and chased him around the kitchen with it. That'll definitely make somebody want to do what you want them to do. I'm like, what? Do you think he was like, wow, this seems great. You know what? On second thought, brother, this has changed my mind. You seem like you're making very good choices. So I'm going to go ahead and go with you in this.

Yeah, your threats have changed my mind. So as you can see, Keith is having some issues with the whole Satanism thing. His person, I don't think it has anything to do with Satanism, to be quite honest. I think it has to do with Keith being like a problem child because he was getting into trouble. He was being an asshole. He's chasing his brother around with a kitchen knife. So he ends up being sent away by his parents to a private school. Oh, okay.

And this private school was in Terre Haute. He was supposed to be working on his anger issues, just get his behavior under control. And David, his brother, did love his brother a lot, even though he didn't understand the Satanism thing. And he had chased him around this fucking kitchen with a kitchen knife. He chalked it up to sibling shit, apparently. That's wild. And, you know, siblings, I guess. If you chased me around the kitchen with a knife, it would be a while before I talk to you again.

Just FYI. Yeah, I won't do that. Cool. I can safely say I won't. Because it'll be a while. It'll be a while. Before me and you talk. It'll be a few days before I speak to you again.

We have a whole job to do together. We do. We have a whole ass job to do. So don't do that, okay? Well, David loved his brother. And he did spend up, like, when he came back from school, he spent a lot of time with him. He didn't stop hanging out with him. Well, he was probably trying to make sure, too, that he could kind of keep him on a good path.

Yeah, like keep him on the straight and arrow. And he was quoted as saying that he hung around with Keith. And this is like both funny and sad, the way he quotes this. Oh, no. He said he hung around with Keith the most because he was the only member of his family to treat him with respect. David said that. But then he was quoted as saying, quote, a satanic brother. is all I had. Oh man. You know what? Life does get bleak within family systems sometimes. And you know what?

Some people have nobody. So at least you did have a satanic brother. It's like I wanted to have a shirt that says like I was born into this family and all I got was this lousy satanic brother. I love it. I'm with stupid. A satanic brother is all I had. I'm with satanic brother. I have a satanic brother. That's all I got. So Keith and David met Mark Goodwin. Right. And they came into each other's lives. They bonded. They ended up working together, so that's how they met. Okay.

And they immediately bonded over Satanism. And Keith and Goodwin actually, because remember Keith is the brother that's bonding over Satanism. David just kind of goes along with his brother. He's like trying to support it. Yeah. But Keith and Goodwin signed a blood pact that they believe we're going to bring them power. And they said, quote, if we're going to do this, let's do it to the full extent and sign with our souls. That's what they were quoted saying later of like, that's why we did it.

Okay. They would do seances and rituals and all other manner of hokey shit that they believed was part of this whole thing. I just love that they're like, if we're going to do it, let's do it right, let's sign with our souls, man. And I'm like, are you supposed to have one? Yeah. Like with the way that you're looking at this? I don't feel like you guys do have one. Yeah, because I feel like with the way they're looking at it is so.

hokey and so just like fictional that I feel like they would be the ones to be like, we're not supposed to have souls, man. We gave our souls to Satan. But like apparently they had them and then they signed with their souls. So that's why they are like blood brothers now. It's really a lot. And I also wonder like did this happen in front of David? Was David just standing there being like, cool, guys?

Yeah. Good luck, I guess. I wonder how he felt about. this whole shebang. Probably wasn't psyched. So now the Lawrence brothers and Goodwin are both at odds with their own respective families because they're getting worse and worse. Like they're not being, they're not being good boys, okay? And they're having a lot of problems with their parents and their families. They're not keeping it in check. Yeah. And they just want to keep worshipping the devil, but they need, they need to get like more steady jobs because they were just taking like jobs every which way.

Because, you know, the devil may be totally giving them all the power in the universe and shit, but he's He's not going to spot them a 20 for rent. So they decided to get jobs together with this traveling carnival company. I was waiting. I was waiting for the carnival element. The carnival got to come in. Yeah, because at this point, they're like, we want to keep worshipping. But like we also need to buy food and pay rent.

So like, let's do this together. What is the creepiest job we could all take together? Carnival. It is. They really nailed it. They really looked for that. So while doing this, They decided they wanted to start a brand new cults because cults.

Okay. So they recruited Jimmy Lee Pennick in Brownstown because he was working the carnival circuit. So this is just a bunch of carnies ready to stamp some pentagrams on their heads and have an orgy for Satan. Carnie cults. Because they met them obviously like these carnival circuits, like they travel obviously and people will travel with them because certain seasons in different places are carnival season. You know, a carnival season up north is going to be summer. But then you could go down south in the winter, and that's still carnival season down there. It's always carnival season.

It's always five o'clock somewhere, and it's always carnie season somewhere. You're like really selling it. You're like, just so you know, you could go to a carnival any time you want. Just go to the right geographical location. Okay. Okay. Like, I feel like I, you know how people have those like tee-key bars and it's like, it's always five o'clock somewhere. There's always a carnival.

creepy ass bar that just says it's always carnival season somewhere. Please do that. I'm going to commission that for you. We should make a t-shirt that says that. You were like, hello. Hello. Hello. T-shirt people.

Are you listening? T-shirt people. So yeah, you know, just a bunch of carnies got together and they were like, Satan? Yeah? Okay, cult time. So during all of this, they're working at the carnival, worshiping Satan.

And all of this is when they met. William Anthony Altz. So many boys up in here. Well, in poor William Alt, he, and they called him Tony, I should say. That's what he was known as. Because his middle name was Anthony. Thank you.

I forgot about that. I was like, why did they call him not? Now, Tony was a good guy. Really? Yep. Okay. And Tony is unfortunately our victim here. Oh, no.

Tony was only 21 at the time. He was interested in Satanism. He was looking for dudes to hang out with. He was kind of like marching to the beat of his own drum. He just wanted like bros to do that with. So his name was William Anthony, Tony Altz. Like I said, he was born July 2nd, 1970 in a small town, in the small town of Rochester, Indiana. He's a cancer.

There you go. So what does that mean? Like a sweet soul who's like in touch with their emotions and just like, cancers are like very ethereal. Aw. You know. Ma's a cancer. Oh, there you go. Yeah, like just picture mom.

All right. So there you go. Tony. Mm-hmm. I get it. And Tony, he just feels like he was like a guy who just like needed, he just needed like the right group. Yeah. To take him in, you know?

His parents were Shirley and Gerald. They divorced at one point. But the mother Shirley had remarried Robert Altz and that's where he took his last name. He had a sister Angela and a brother Charles. He was into like weird shit. He was just like into the occult. He was interested in it. He really, I think it was just one of those things where it's like, you know, this is almost like, it probably to him looked at first, like, you know, like just like something like D&D.

Something that they're into, they get together, they do it. Yeah. It's something that bonds them together. It's a built-in group of friends. You're all interested in weird, dark shit. But then he did start seeing that it was like a little more than that, but I don't think he fully understood. Now, he had started working for the poor John's Carnival Company, which is the one that they all found themselves working for at one point. Okay.

Because, again, it's always carnival season somewhere. So they were moving around to a bunch of them, but they ended up at this one. So he met them in September of 1991 on DeKalb County Fairgrounds. And again, he was only 21 years old. A baby. A baby. So he expressed to them. He heard them talking.

He kind of got to know them a little bit. bit and he expressed to them that he was like, you know, I would like to join your cult. Like sounds kind of fun. He was very interested in this stuff. And also, again, he was like, I really just want some friends to hang with. So like, can I join? Yeah. And you know, we all want that. Of course. We all want that. But for some reason, they were not interested in him becoming part of the cult. Really? Which is weird. Does it have a reason? They didn't really give a reason. Huh. And later, what's even more frustrating is these fuckers talk about Tony and they say, say that like he was a really nice guy and he didn't deserve any of it. Are you kidding me? Literally talk

about him like yeah, you know what? He was like a really great guy and like we shouldn't have done what we did. So it's like they admit that this is like a really good guy. And I do wonder if initially they were like yeah, you don't belong because you're actually a like good person and we're shitty people. Okay. We don't want you here because we don't want to hang out with a good person. I wonder if that's part of it. They could tell he was a good person. Probably. So in September again he's like he's like I want to join your call they're like no no and he's like come on like I want to join your call yeah like just let me join in September he approaches them and tells them you know I want to be part of everything they keep telling him no and the thing is he finally was like well listen I know

something I know something pretty big okay he knew something that could take these fuckers down oh oh and he decided this was his end to the cults which is not great. So somehow he knew that in August of that same year, an 18-year-old guy named Andrew Lee Wright was murdered in Ohio by having his throat slit. Jesus. He was murdered in an Ohio field and his body was dumped on the turnpike. He was also a carnival worker, this guy.

Apparently, Andrew had been killed because he had been speaking about panic committing another crime in Ohio before that. Uh-oh. Well, he also knew that this is what Tony knew. Tony was like, I know that someone by the name of Keith Lawrence and someone by the name of Jimmy Pennick are responsible for this murder of Andrew Lee Wright. Yeah. Uh-oh. We don't need you to know that.

Uh-oh. So now he knows he has something on them and he's trying to use it as blackmail for them to let them into their group. Okay. This is a bad plan from all sides. Unfortunately, like any way. you turn this puzzle, it's not going to, it's not going to work. It's wrong. Wrong answers everywhere.

Like, it's not. Because if you know that somebody has something to do with a murder, don't go to that person about it. Go to the police about it. Exactly. And like, yeah. Because it's like he seems like he was desperate. He seems like he desperately just wanted to be in a group.

I don't know. Who knows if he truly believed that this was true that he had done it? That's the other thing. Maybe he thinks that it's a room. but he's like, I'm going to use this because why not? Right. There's no way that Tony could have known that him doing this was going to cause anything of what happened.

Of course not. But it's like just for future ref, when this kind of thing is never a good way to get somebody to let you into a group or to like, you don't want to hang out with these people. No, you definitely don't. And I don't think Tony truly wanted to either. I think he just wanted a group and he didn't know how bad these guys were. I really don't. So of course at first they're like fine you can be part of the group

but there's like a huge initiation process and there's a ritual and there's probably you know some like orgy involved and you have to make sure you don't tell anyone about this. Okay. Because shit's about to get real. So don't tell anyone that you are becoming part of this cult. Don't even tell people that this cult exists. That's the only way that you're ever going to become one of us.

And he was like, okay. He's like, that's easy. Yeah, he's like, I don't want to talk about it anyway. So September 25th, 1991, they asked a friend of the cult, which is like a friend of the pod, but really scary, I would assume. Because literally it's like friend of the cult. This woman's name was Brenda Ferguson to help them with this whole thing. Of course, they didn't really tell her what they were doing. That's the thing.

They weren't like, hey, Brenda, we want to do something terrible to this guy. Can you help us out? They said that they were initiating Tony into their satanic church and that they needed her help to scope out a really good seclude. place that has like satanic vibes but also might be really good for a picture after you know flanking the new initiate like a graduation photo okay so it had to be a mix of broken down cemetery and picturesque view you know yeah like that's what they were looking not an easy task beautifully said but you know what who better than brenda to do this i trust brenda who doesn't so they everybody can trust a brenda So the carnival is shutting down for the day.

All the rides are over. The lights are slowly turning off. The creeps are slinking out of their booths to do all manner of dark shit. I'm totally kidding. They were probably just completely normal people who are just going home after a hard day's work. Yeah, they're definitely just going home for a beer. Yeah. That's all what we just pictured.

But like in reality, they were all just like, wow, great job everybody. See you tomorrow. Yeah. Now, except for these assholes, these were the ones slinking off to do some bad shit. So now everything's over. They work their hard day. Brenda picks them all up in her car. She picks up Jimmy, Mark, Keith, David, and Tony. So Brenda had found the perfect place. She had done her job. It was the secluded farm outside of Auburn. Auburn farms. And farms are perfect for a ritual. Oh, of course. They're all like, this is what we need. They're spooky, but, you know, they're necessary. They can be picturesque. They've got everything. And they're super secluded usually. That's the thing. And I feel bad because Brenda did a good job with the location if it was what they were planning on doing,

which was some like spooky, uki ritual not involving any kind of sacrifice or anything. Like she'd done, she'd found a great location for that. And I feel bad because I think she thought that she was just setting them up for a really great ritual that evening. And then, so she just left and dropped them off. Yeah, thought nothing of it. And they all said she didn't know. They didn't tell her anything. They told her initiating Tony.

I feel like they've done something terrible to her. So they get in there and they have Tony lie down on the door that they have makeshifted into a satanic altar. Once he lay on the door slash altar, they tied him up and they gagged him with a towel. It like bothers me. I'm like, at what point did he realize? I know. Like I thought about it and I was like, did you realize like as soon as it start? Like when they tie you up, you have to realize something is awry.

Or at least just be like start to get nervous. And it's like he, I'm sure he tried to get away. It's just like really sad to think about it. So it begins with Keith reading some kind of satanic spell or prayer. Who knows? Like these assholes probably just made this shit up. Of course. So this is happening and everything just kind of seems weird, but not yet completely violent.

It's just weird. And then Jimmy just whips out Keith's knife and slices from Tony's neck to his groin. Oh, my goodness. And we are talking a deep cut, like close to the Y-shaped incision that you prepare an autopsy with. Right. Yeah. That takes force. Of course.

Trust me, that takes force. So now that they have sliced, he's basically been sliced open. He's been eviscerated at this point. Goodwin and the Lawrence brothers just start putting inverted crosses, like cutting them into his upper torso and abdomen. They also just slice into him, like all. over the place, and he's alive for all of this. Tony. He was still alive.

So now he is lying here, bound and gagged and bleeding and sliced open, and Jimmy Pennick leans down into his face and asks Tony if he is ready to die. What? Tony answered, and Jimmy's response was to slice open his throat. Oh. And he said he answered me, but I don't think he ever said what the answer was. But he said, I'm assuming it was no. This all just happened so quickly.

It happened so fast. And the fact that he was saying he answered me is like he was alive for all of that until the very end. And it's just like you think of Tony on his way and he's probably just excited to be a part of something. Yeah. And obviously had no idea that this was going to happen. It's just like thinking of him driving out there that night ruins you. Yeah. Because it's just he had no one could ever conceive of this happening.

Never. No one. Never. And that's why I truly believe that Tony didn't think that maybe thought those rumors of, you know, Keith and Jimmy being murderers were just like rumors because they were in a satanic cult and all that. Right. I truly believe he probably didn't know exactly what he was getting into here. I agree with you. I really believe that and which makes it even sadder because I think he just wanted a group to hang with.

Right. And it really does break my heart. Now they weren't done. After they've slid open his throat and are satisfied that he is dead, Goodwin, Keith Lawrence, and Jimmy all help each other cut off Tony's head. Yeah. And they dismember him. Why?

They cut off his hands and then they attempted to burn the dismembered pieces of his body. They took all the remains after this and they buried them in a shallow grave in a nearby field. That was like near the site of the murder. then they just call Brenda and had her pick them up. And here, I'm wondering about what Brenda thought about them being minus one member here. Right, because was Tony original, like did Tony go out there with them? Yeah, Tony was out there with them. So here's the thing.

I don't know about Brenda. I don't know what, and that's why I'm not going to sit here and like pretend to know about Brenda or what she knew or whatnot. I know that they claim that they didn't tell her anything. And I know that she was really not brought into this after this. But I'm still like, Brenda, did you ask where Tony was? I mean, I would ask, maybe am I detail oriented? I don't know if I would just be like, well, I came here with this many of you. And now there's one less of you.

Well, you would think that she'd be like, oh, is Tony coming? Like, does he need a ride home? That's the thing. I'd be like, where's Tony? Does he need a ride? That's what that would be what I would ask. That's the thing. Like, I intentionally chose a secluded area for you.

Like, where is he? But I guess just playing devil's advocate and no pun intended. Maybe she did ask and maybe they gave some kind of answer like it's part of the initiation. He has to walk home. He has to like find him. So his way home. It's true. That's why I don't want to like say either way with Brenda.

I obviously it makes you question but you have no idea. And I don't want to. Who knows who Brenda is? Now either way, they stopped at an Arby's. Are you kidding me? That is always just like so incredible. incredibly disturbing when they carry out such a heinous act and then go get a burger. Yeah.

Now, how did they pay for this, Arby's, by the way? Oh, I'm sure you're going to tell me what I know. They didn't pay for it with their money. They took money from Tony's pockets before they burned his dismembered corpse in a field nearby. I don't understand how people can do this to other people. They stole money out of his pocket while they buried his dismembered corpse nearby the place where they murdered him in a satanic ritual torture. I just don't, that's that like I just said, I just don't get it. It's like, how do you not think of your brother or your sister or your dad or like your cousin? Right. Like there are people who love him. Exactly. And how do you not think, how do you not put yourself in a place of empathy and like think how you would feel if this happened to your family member? Or how your family would feel if this happened to you. Like I just don't understand the lack of empathy that people have. I don't either. That's the thing. It's like that that's what kills me. People love these people. Right. And like I feel like every decision I make, I think about how it's going to affect the people around me and me. Yeah. And it's like, does everybody get it right all the time? No, of course not. But these kind of people don't even consider it. It's not even a fleeting thought in their mind what these, who these people are, who they could be hurting. And these kind of thing are just like, I mean, these are beyond. Like that's the thing. Like you don't get these right or wrong. You just know that murdering somebody is wrong. And this is like torture. Absolutely. Torture.

Now, what's crazy, too, is they just kept working the carnival because nobody was, nothing happened. And actually ended up driving down to Florida at one point to get winter carnival jobs because remember the carnival is in season everywhere. And they did so in Keith's van, which he called rigor mortis. That's so fucking lame. You guys are the lamest. Yeah, like the lamest fucks. They returned home at the end of the year. And luckily, by December, people at art, they were.

was rumblings about what happened to Tony. He was missing. People were already saying, you know, he hung around these guys. He was seen with these guys. We know about these guys. The other thing is, and like, I'm glad that they're, I'm not glad that they're stupid, but just like, oh, I know. You already knew that Tony was onto you. So did you not think that those rumors were circulating? And then you're going to do this to Tony? That's only going to add fuel to the fire. And then people are going to come in hot on your tail. Like, how did you not think of that? Like, did you think a demon was going to come and save you? Like, from all of this shit, you idiots?

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That's a good dad right there. He told them his son had described to him that he witnessed a murder that was part of a ritual satanic sacrifice. on that poor man too. Yeah, having to do that. That's my son. That's what he does. Yeah, I'd be like, great.

And having to call the police and be like, you need to come arrest my child. I can't imagine the internal struggle that you would go through. Oh. Well, they were immediately arrested. Good. Now, Tony's body was discovered the next day, December 13th, 1991, when deer hunters in the area stumbled upon the loosely buried body. They also found the burnt remains of a hand and a head.

Now, Goodwin was charged with conspiracy to commit murder. Jimmy Pennick was charged with aggravated murder. He basically just admitted the entire thing outright. He was like, yep, I did it. Goodwin admitted that he had witnessed the entire thing and had lightly participated. You don't lightly participate in murder, you fuck face. You participate or you don't. You participated.

And, by the way, being there is participating. Oh, yeah, exactly. Whether you're picking anything up and doing it yourself, you're participating in a murder because you're not actively stopping it. Exactly. You are fully part of that. Yep. And it's like and you did nothing afterwards to alert anybody. Then you are fully part of that.

Like Tony's body just was out there rotting for months because you didn't tell anybody about it. Consider yourself a murderer. Yeah. You piece of shit. Now the Lawrence brothers were actually vacationing in the Bahamas at the time so they were busy. I don't even know what I could possibly say about that. But they came back on January 10th. And when their plane landed in Miami, they were quickly extradited immediately back to Indiana and were charged with aiding in a murder. Good.

I'm so mad that it wasn't on the way to the barma's. I know. They actually got to have a last vacation. That makes me so angry. Now, during the trial, they admitted that Keith had actually tried to cut Tony's heart out. What? Yeah, that came out. So Keith being like, I lightly participated in.

Yeah, please. Not a ton. Like he didn't, or that wasn't even him. It was Goodwin who said that he lightly participated. But Keith, one of the brothers, he just comes home from the Bahamas and is like, what? I don't, yeah, I didn't do anything. And they're like, no, he actually tried to cut his heart out. But like, good try.

Now, Goodwin and David Lawrence decided that they were going to find religion in jail because they think it helps. And David Lawrence actually said, if he went to prison that Jesus would just freeze his soul because no man can lock that down. Yeah. Spoiler alert. That doesn't happen. So, and he said, though, that he regretted the whole thing because, quote, that boy Tony had the right to live. Yeah, he did. And you took it from him.

Yeah, they all say that a lot. Like, a lot of them are like, he had a right to live. And I'm like, then why'd you take it from him? What is wrong with all of you? And Mark Goodwin actually apologized to Shirley Tony's mother. But she said, get fucked. Good. He said to her, Mrs. Givens, I never really knew your son.

Whatever I know, I do know he was a good-hearted person. I am very ashamed of what I did to your son. And she actually yelled at him, you damn well should be. What chance does he have now? What am I supposed to feel? Sorry for you? You never should have done it. Exactly.

And it's like, yeah, fuck off. Like, oh, I love that. Because I always, sorry after the fact is always like, okay. Mm-hmm. But like, if you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it. And it's like that kind of thing. Sorry after I murdered your child. And how do you think that's going to help in any way, shape, or form?

How do you think that's going to help the sorry? And then what business do you have saying that you didn't even know my son, but what you do know of him is that he's a good person? So you didn't know him, but you took his life. Yeah. Okay. Like very cool. The little you knew about him was that he was a great person.

Right. And that's just, and that's all you knew and you still decided to do this. That's adding insult to injury. It truly is. David also said that he blamed his brother, Keith, completely. And he regretted hanging out with him so much. And he said, even if he had gotten out of this whole thing, he would have never spoken to him again. Jimmy Pennick was 25 at the time and he ended up getting 60 years in prison.

Good. He pled guilty to avoid trial and possibly the death penalty. Now, he had a lot of aggravating factors in his sentencing that were very interesting to read. And I just want to tell you a couple. An aggravating factor in his sentencing was the fact that he had done it before. Yeah. Because now they know that he had done it before. Was he convicted of that murder then? He did do that. So in the court transcript, it says, quote, this was the second time that defendant Jimmy Lee Penick had murdered someone because previously in August of 1991, he murdered a man in Fulton County, Iowa, also cutting his throat with a knife. So it was also the same exact way that he murdered Tony. How did he get away with that? I don't know. That's what's so crazy. And it says also considered for his sentence was the heinous nature of this. crime. Yeah. In the court documents as well, it stated that if his sentence was reduced in any way, it would, quote, depreciate from the seriousness of all of this most serious classification of crimes in

Indiana, perhaps the most heinous crime ever committed into Calb County, Indiana. They said that, quote, the death of the victim at the hands of the defendant, Jimmy Le Penick, was painful and torturous to the victim. And that, quote, later on the day, later on in the day of the murder of defendant Jimmy Lee Penick knowingly ate food purchased with money stolen from the deceased victim. And then they reference also the planning of it. Like they obviously had planned this out completely. And the complete lack of remorse that was also considered. Good.

Now, Penick's team argued, quote, Penick does concede that the victim suffered some pain. Some. We're here to argue the amount of pain I inflicted on this individual. And he's also like, okay, I concede that I guess he suffered some pain. but argues that virtually all murders involve pain or torture. So this is not an element particular to the facts of this case, which can be used to justify imposition of enhanced or consecutive sentences.

You're kidding me. The amount of pain that he inflicted on his victim through torture should not be taken into account when it comes to sentencing, like a big sentence or consecutive sentences is what they're saying. Tell me that the judge... Because all murder hurts. Right. Tell me the judge...

flipped him off. Absolutely. And did not consider that. Yes. So the court found that infliction of grave injury and pain over an extended period of time is sufficient to support an aggravating factor.

Now, what's interesting about this, remember, we're involving torture here, like pain and torture. They used a precedent for this, and this precedent was loveless versus the state, 1994. Oh. This is precedent set in the case of Shanda Sherer's horrific torture

and murder in 1994. Now, Melinda Lovelace is the defendant stated there. That's really interesting to me. I was like, holy shit. That is wild. Because remember, this trial happened, like, after the Shandashera case happened. Right, right. So, Pennick, like, because the trial happened, like, way later than the murder is what I'm saying.

Now, Penne, it says, quote, and this is what the court said, quote, Pennick's own words describe how the victim's chest and abdomen were cut open, how Goodwin tried to cut out the victim's heart before he, died and how the victim remained conscious throughout this and responded to questions from the defendant. Only after defendant slit the victim's neck did the torture end. There's sufficient evidence on the record to support this aggravator. So they were like, your own fucking defendant, like sealed his fate there. Right. He told us everything. So what are you trying to do? Now, they also tried to get rid of the aggravating factor that used the dismemberment and concealment of the body.

Pennick's team argued that dismemberment and concealment are basically the same thing. They're both done for the same purpose to conceal. Okay. Yeah. But the court was like, oh, no, you idiots. They said, quote, furthermore, we do not believe that these are the same factors, although removing and burning the hands may have been done to conceal the identity of the victim and get ready. Removal of the head had nothing to do with this.

Defendant himself stated that that. head was removed in order for Keith Lawrence to give the skull to a friend. No. Yes. Found that buried in a court transcript. It was never repeated in any newspaper. What? That he's, his team is trying to sit there and be like, well, they dismembered the body to conceal

the identity of the body. So you can't have two aggravating factors, one for concealment of the body and one for dismemberment because we're arguing that they were done for the same reason. Okay. And they're like, cool, we can do that on the hands if you're, really want. But the head, fucking Jimmy Pennick, literally told the court. It is on record that they took Tony's head off so Keith Lawrence could give the fucking skull to a friend. That's beyond. That is so beyond any kind of words that I can ever conjure right now. Like, I'm like,

and you are sitting, and for his defense team to be sitting here trying, I'm like, honeies, hang up the towel. Yeah. Hang up the towel. Yeah. Hang up the towel. What are you doing? How can you try to argue that when you know full well that that's already been said? Truly wild. Now, Keith at the time was 20 years old. He got 50 years in prison with 20 suspended years for conspiracy to commit murder.

He actually got out of prison in 2004 and he had 20 years probation knocked on there. And in 2006, he went back to jail for 180 days for property. public intoxication and then apparently was being held on bond for charges of criminal confinement and captivity put him back in prison but could not find any other thing about it I was like what the hell's going on put him in prison leave him in prison he hasn't changed and he was being held like without like you could like with no bail yeah which they were like obviously they're doing that because of his previous shit right now David he got he was 23 years old at the time he was a little older than Keith, remember, and he pled guilty to assisting a crime, and he got eight years in prison.

Now, Mark Goodwin pled guilty to assisting a criminal and battery by means of a deadly weapon, and he got eight years. That's bullshit. Thank you. Both of those sentences are bullshit. So bullshit. And insulting. Very insulting.

Like, Tony's family, can you imagine? I would have been outraged. Eight years. And when he was in jail, when Mark Goodwin was in jail, he also found religious. and said, everyone should be careful of the lure of Satanism and literally said, quote, look at William Alt. He was a Satanist and he didn't make it.

Because you killed him. Because you murdered him. It had nothing to do with him being a Satanist. You murdered him because you're a murderer. Because you're a torturer. I feel like he said that to be a dick. It's outrageous. Like why else would you say that?

Yeah. You know why he didn't make it. It had nothing to do with him being a Satanist. It had everything to do with him meeting your stupid ass. And then he admitted his own fault in the other murder that started this entire thing. He said, quote, I regret it because that boy had the right to live. So did Andrew. Their families put time, love, and money into those guys.

And now there's no more of them. Because of you. Thank you. What? Like, you're saying that is, oh, okay. That would, like, cool, but that's your fucking fault, dude. And I also love that they, it shows you exactly that statement to me is like very, very much encompassing Mark Goodwin and all these guys is like him being like, you know, yeah, it's a real bummer because their family put like a ton of love, time, money into them and like now they're not here anymore. And it's like, do you think that's why people put time, like why people love people and care about people?

They put time, love and money into them. And once they're gone like, fuck, I did all that for nothing. Like that's not how that works. I think that's how human emotions work? Which just shows us that you don't have an understanding of them. Because it's like, no, Tony's family just loved him. Right. It's, and Andrew's family loved him.

It has nothing to do with I put time, money, and all this into someone, and now they got murdered and that's annoying to me. No, it's that they cared about them. It's that they are not here anymore. To hug. To love. To talk to, to joke with, to do anything with. It's like, it's like, it's so crazy that they're just like, oh yeah, they just, you know,

their family put all the shit into the. them and now they don't for nothing that just shows it that tells you everything you need to know about it really does how he considers his personal relationships and probably why he was able to do something like this yeah it's insane to me so that is the tale of the carney cults wow that was really really gut-wrenching yeah i just the fact that tony just wanted to be a part of something that's what kills me. And probably went out there so, like I said, so excited. And this is what happened. Exactly. And his poor family having to sit through this trial and listen to these guys say like, yeah, I didn't even know your son, but I heard he was great. Sorry for killing him.

My bad. For those families to have to deal with that. Yeah. I don't even know how you would go about the rest of your life. It's so flippant. And it's so. That is the perfect way for it. It's so flippant. And it's just acting like, like murder is just like, oops, sorry that I ran over a nail with your car and I pop the tire. Like, that's a bummer. That was a great car. And it's like, no, this is a person that you ceremoniously tortured and killed. And that's the thing. And then dismembered.

Like him saying, oh, they put so much time and money into this. It's like a car. Yeah, it truly is. Like, he treats it, them like, it's a possession. This whole thing is just a possession and not human beings that actually were taken from their families and loved ones. It's devastating. It's a really, like,

it reminded me of the Fall River. cult, like how gnarly that got and how just like, wow, like the chaos and that. But these guys all admitted it. They all admitted to being there. A couple of them obviously tried to take themselves, like bring themselves into a like outer shell there and be like, like, I was just there. I didn't touch them. But they all know what they did. Of course they did.

And they all inflicted some kind of injury on Tony. And they all deserve to be in prison forever. But unfortunately, like I said. Yeah. Like the Lawrence brothers there. and Mark Goodwin, they didn't get nearly enough. And they get to go back out and live the lives that Tony should have been living. Yeah.

21 years old. So sad. Poor Tony. I know. Well, yeah. That's a rough one. That was a really sad one. It was.

But thank you guys, of course, for listening. And we hope you keep it weird. I do not have to tell you not to keep it this weird. And I'm simply not going to. Just don't do it. Alina will. Thank you.