Morbid - The Murder of Gary Triano

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

On the evening of November 1, 1996, Tucson, Arizona real estate developer and businessman Gary Triano got into his car at the La Paloma Country Club intending to head home, where friends and family were waiting for Gary’s surprise birthday party. However, before Gary had even put the key in the ignition, the car exploded in a ball of flame, plunging the club into panic and chaos, and killing Gary instantly. To investigators, the car bomb planted under Gary’s car had all the hallmarks of a professional hit, and with Gary’s business dealings and financial troubles, there were at least a few people who would have benefitted from his death. However, within just a few weeks, suspicion fell to Triano’s ex-wife, Pamela, who’d taken out a life insurance policy on Gary during their marriage that would eventually pay out $2 million dollars.Despite being confident that Pamela was involved in Gary’s death, the year-long investigation failed to turn up any conclusive evidence tying her to the murder. Undeterred, investigators continued to pursue the case across the country and eventually around the world and in 2009, more than a decade after his death, the people responsible for Gary Triano’s death were finally arrested, but many years would pass before anyone was held accountable.Thank you to David White, of the Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research!ReferencesBodfield, Rhonda. 1996. "Broke Triano kept optimistic ." Tucson Citizen, November 9: 1.—. 1996. "Triano threats srcutinized." Tucson Citizen, November 5: 2.CBS News. 2017. "The Hit in Arizona [transcript]." CBS News, July 11.Huicochea, Alexis, and Enric Volante. 2006. "'96 bomb slaying is getting a new look." Arizona Daily Star, September 7.Innes, Stephanie. 1996. "Gambling link eyed in Triano murder." Tucson Citizen, November 4: 1.Limberis, Chris. 2001. "Requiem for a heavyweight ." Tucson Weekly, November 1.McNamara, Patrick. 2014. "Conflictring pictures painted of Triano murder suspect." Arizona Daily Star, February 20: A2.—. 2014. "Ex-wife going on trial 17 years after bomb death." Arizona Daily Star, February 16: C1.—. 2014. "Phillips gets life for fatal bombing." Arizona Daily Star, May 23: 1.Miami Herald. 2005. "A TV 'Most Wanted' fugitive is captured." Miami Herald, November 22: 138.Pence, Angela, John Rawlinson, and Alexa Haussler. 1996. "Black powder pipe bomb killed Triano." Arizona Daily Star, November 7.Sate of Arizona v. Pamela Anne Phillips. 2018. 1 CA-CR 17-0285 (Arizona Court of Appeals, July 10).Smith, Kim. 2011. "Additional mental exams for murder suspect denied." Arizona Daily Star, March 8: A2.—. 2010. "Life, no parole for killer in Triano case." Arizona Daily Star, May 4: A2.—. 2010. "Triano case closing arguments." Arizona Daily Star, March 27: A2.State of Arizona v. Ronald Kelly Young. 2012. CR20084012 (Court of Appeals State of Arizona , February 29).Teibel, David. 1996. "Blast fragments studied ." Tucson Citizen, November 1: 1.Tucson Citizen. 1973. "Realtor seeks seat on council." Tucson Citizen, June 15: 4.Volante, Enric. 2006. "Detective: Secret recordings link Triano ex, suspected death plot." Arizona Daily Star, September 8.—. 1997. "Triano assassination task force disbanded." Arizona Daily Star, August 2.Wagner, Dennis. 1996. "Bombing death puzzles police." Arizona Republic, November 10: 33. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. Echcentric morbid. Hello there. We also have a windstorm happening. I didn't know if you were going to say anything about it, but as soon as I was like, this is morbid. The wind was like, what was it like?

Herr. Okay, cool. Thank you. I just want to make sure. Yeah, I just happened to like gaze out the window as I said like, hello. And then I was like, oh, it's an actual windstorm. out. Like, there's trees, like, bending over. You know what's scary is right behind my head is, like, a very large tree. And, like, whenever it's windy, I'm like, one of these days, I'm probably just going to

die in this seat while reporting about, like, something else. And then I'll cover it. Thank you. It's not necessarily. Well, that's morbid. But, uh, yeah. So, hello, it's an Ash-centric episode. And, uh, I think there was a little technical glitch in the listener tales episode this week. Sorry about that. I know like everybody and we included are always like, it's been a week, but like, oh boy, it's been a week. This week takes the cake. It truly has. Nothing even like actually bad happened. No, it was just a series of very stressful, annoying events. Weird, like fuckups and failures of just, and nothing huge, nothing that was like, but you know when things, and I'm sure everybody, like, you get me right guys? Like everything, when everything, when they're,

Everything just, like, comes together in the most shitty way. Just to, like, everything you try to do during the week, you just fail at. See, the new moon is, like, supposed to bring, like, new beginnings. But I feel like it had a little bit of, like, damage to clean up. Like, the first week after the new moon, I guess we just had to, like, get through all the shit of, like, the last moon. We had to sweep, I guess. And I'm feeling, yeah, it's like, it's like you swept, but then you didn't vacuum. Hopefully we're cleansed now after this week.

Because, I mean, it even leaked into, like, you know, everything. It was like, we tried to do screen. this week and it got all messed up. We just like, everything was messing up. I don't know what it was. Everything sucks. But you know what? It's a new week soon.

So we're. Yeah, we're totally fine. We're going to be good. Tonight, even tonight, I think tonight's the start of something new. There you go. And I think the only other thing I wanted to kind of like mention before we start was the Tristan Bailey case. Holy hell. It's everybody, I'm sure you've all heard about it.

If you haven't, definitely look it up because it's insane. and it's happening right now. It's horrible. We are going to cover that case, but we want to see it through to the end. So we want to make sure we watch this whole trial. We want to see someone charged. We want to see someone, you know, like officially, we want everything to be kind of buttoned up a little more. Because things in the beginning, when you start to read articles, like one article will say this, and then another article will say this. And then this other one over here said that this person said this. And you're like, but what? And what's the truth? There's just not enough information out right now for us to feel comfortable reporting about it.

Yeah. But we do want to acknowledge, like, wow. And our hearts go out to her family. I can't imagine. Truly. And you know what it is? It's really showing the double-edged sword that social media is because social media can be this, like, beautiful thing that can help solve cases.

It can do awesome stuff. And bring people together. Bring people together. All this awesome stuff. And then it can be the worst fucking invention that ever came about in human. humanity. And we see this when a picture is posted on a news website of Tristan, a 13-year-old girl who was murdered brutally. Yeah. And some of the comments on there are things that, honestly, you look at them and you're like, well, there you are, future murderer. Like, it's just,

there you are. We're all seeing it happen. It's like, you have to be a despicable person to say some of the things I was seeing. Seriously. Like, people sitting there saying she deserved it. She shouldn't have worn that. It's like, what the fuck? The whole you shouldn't have worn that. She's a baby. Literally, I can't. Also, that is a uniform that she was wearing. She's also a child who was murdered. I don't give a shit what she was wearing. It has nothing to do with it. And then the other thing is like... And her family has to see that. That's so fucked. All these like kids that are like making Instagrams about it saying the most... Faked profiles and shit. It's like where? What is going on? Who raised you? Well, I was just gonna wear your parents. Like my kids, I'm gonna monitor their fucking social media until they're like 18 years old. Oh yeah. My kids like, until forever.

Godspeed to them. But it's also just like, who, how, how does that happen? No, how does your brain work that way? Because never once as a child did I ever be like, it would be really fun to harass the family of a murdered child. Like that never entered my mind as like, oh, you know what would be fun to do? No. And it just, it's, it really blows my mind. It's sickening. It really is. We've been following it like very closely. We just wanted to let everybody know because I know a lot of people were like, you know, like tagging us being like, we got to cover this. And we definitely will.

It will be covered because, you know, Tristan's story should be told. But we want to just make sure we wait for it to get a little more clear. Yeah. And tightened up. You know, the picture, a more fuller picture of what's going on. So we will be covering that eventually. We just wanted to let you know. And, you know, be nice online, guys.

Do you know what? I know no one listening here does that shit, but like, oh, go comment something nice on someone's picture. Yeah, just go be nice. Go make someone's day. Pay for the person behind you in the drive-thru. Yeah, because you know what? That's my favorite.

I hope I'm behind you. There you go, right? I love you about I'm just kidding. But I honestly, though, like you see like a nice, even just something as simple as like, because I think I tweeted about how our week has been shit. And the amount of people that were just like, yeah, me too. Like I'm having a shitty week too. Like hopefully both must get better.

High five. Like it was just like nice. Well, and here's the thing. I think sometimes even I do this, like I'll go to say, something like nice and I'm like they might think that's weird if I say that I'm just gonna not say that you know fuck it who cares if they think you're weird just spread positivity and niceness because you know what nasty people never think twice about what they say they just shoot off at their fucking mouth and they don't care that they're going to ruin someone's day and you never know so you know what don't think

twice about being too nice because you never know if that person like your comment is really gonna help the day better exactly because it does it works it does there's our little PSA about internet etiquette etiquette all of the above. But yeah, it was the Tristan stuff that just like really, ugh, gave me a really sour taste in my mouth. I was like, I don't get it, unfortunately. As we're going to see with this case that I'm covering too, actually. Yeah, let's just segue right into the worst kind of people. Yeah, the absolute worst kind of people. And the people that we just don't know. I was going to say an unknown people. Yeah, this isn't even like an unsolved, it's kind of an unsolved

case. It's just very confusing. You know what we're here for, because the episode title. It's the Smiley face killers. And I have done nothing but like watch Smiley Face Killer documentaries for the past two weeks, like read every possible article that I could. Let, like, asked Drew if I could tell him all the terrifying things in this case. And he was like, please don't. Maybe call Elena. But then I was like, no, because I can't tell her everything because then I can't surprise her. And I was like, and also I already did. So there's that. So we are covering the Smiley Phase Killers Phenomena. I guess you could call it. It's like what is happening. The mystery. It's crazy. Because since about 1997 in various parts of the U.S., there have been

hundreds. Like, I think the number is up to like 300, over 300 now of all these cases that they think may be associated with this. And it's young college men just ending up dead in water somewhere. And a lot of these cases have been ruled accidental drownings, but a lot of people do not think that's the case, and I am one of those people. I kind of stand. Are you a little bit in the middle? I'm a little in the middle. I can see both sides. So I'm eager to see what after this, you won't. Because I'm biased. Might as well just get that out right now. Yeah, like, I definitely think that this is a killer for sure.

And I'm going to stay in my, in my middle lane here and I'll see. Yeah, see how you feel at the end. I also think that this is going to be part, this is going to be part two. This is going to be two parts. Yeah. But each victim shares some kind of similarity with the next in these cases. It's usually like a pretty successful guy who's in college, making honors or like a promising young athlete. Like these kids have everything going for them and their whole futures ahead of them. But it's somehow after a night out with friends, they end up separated from their group of friends and they end up in a body of water seemingly having to like fallen in the water after drinking too much.

But then you kind of look a little more into that and it doesn't really make sense. I mean, so far. Well. Seems like it could be accidental. It could be, but I haven't told you anything of importance yet. Give me the deeds. So sadly enough, in the U.S. alone, there are 3,500 to 4,000 drowning deaths per year, and men make up 80% of that number. Wow.

Isn't that crazy? That's interesting. I know. So it's really not that uncommon. But what's weird about the victims that will focus on and those thought to be associated with this strange thing that's going on is that they're found in the, when they're found in the water, things don't end up between like, where they were supposed to be, how long they would have had to travel from point A to where they supposedly fell in the water, and even like the level of decomposition of their bodies. The level of decomposition in these different cases that I'm going to present to you is

bananas. So let's get into it. That's what I'm really interested here. Yeah, and I'll tell you. So in 1997, there was a guy Patrick McNeil. He was one of the promising men unfortunately found dead. His body was in the East River in New York City. He had been going to Fordham University. It was his junior year and everything was going really well. All of his professors absolutely loved him. They thought that he did great work. He had a really good group of friends and he was known to be someone who like really wanted to put their best foot forward at all times. His friends used to make fun of him and be like, okay, are you ready to go out yet? Like, you pick your outfit. Do you look good? Do you smell good? Your hair. Your hair is perfectly guffed. Okay, let's go. Love it.

He also had dreams of working for the FBI someday, and he was definitely smart enough to make that happen. Wow. Yeah. Good for him. I know. So on February 16th, 1997, Patrick and some friends decided to go out for the night. The bar that the Fordham kids loved to go to around that time was called the dapper dog, and it was in Manhattan. The dapper dog.

The dapper doge. So that's where they decided to go out that night. Pretty quickly, though, Patrick was like not feeling great. ended up having to run to the bathroom and get sick. And he like ended up throwing up in the bathroom. But it was weird because he hadn't really drank that much, especially for how sick he was getting and how disoriented he was becoming. Now, once he finished throwing up in the bathroom, he found his friends and let them know that he was going to head back to campus. It's really unclear to me why like no one was like, hey, I'll go with you. Yeah, like you're obviously sick. Yeah. And I did read that

he was waiting outside for one friend to come out, but they just like never came out. So he was like, okay, I guess I'll just go on my way. So plenty of people saw him after he left and believed that he was making his way to the subway. He was still throwing up like on the street and was very unsteady on his feet. He was falling into cars. He was like stumbling around. I really don't understand why nobody helped him. Yeah. One witness saw him walking and noticed that a previously double parked van was slowly trailing him. Huh. Uh-huh. And at one point, Patrick actually fell to the ground. And when he did this, the van came to a complete stop. And then he got back up and started going on his way and so did the van, which is super weird. Now, is this one eyewitness saying this? Yeah. Okay. I just wanted

to know, which is fair. Yeah. So when he got back up, he made his way to the end of the street to turn on to East 90th. And when he turned, the van did too. And that was the last time anyone saw Patrick McNeil alive again. I mean, sounds creepy. Sounds super creepy. Very creepy. Now, allegedly witnesses one man and one woman in the van and actually were able to get part of their license plate. Oh. So that's super exciting, right? Very. Yeah, like you could probably do something with that if you wanted to spend the money on it.

But the head of the missing persons department didn't really want to do. It's called a lawman search. And what that would have done is like basically complete the plate number by using all the possible combinations and matching it up to... Like a van. Like a kind of car. A making model, exactly. but it would have cost like $1,200 at the time, and he didn't want to spend the money on it. So he just didn't.

What? Yeah. Why? Why do that? Why? Why solve a potential murder case? That's not what people want. No, but it's like... People don't want things solved?

No. No. It's so aggravating. We want the mystery. Yeah, exactly. That's what we're here for. So it would be... It would be two months before Patrick McNeil's body was discovered in the East River in New York City on

April 7, 1997. Now, they were able to recover his body near the Owls Head Water Pollution Control Plant, which was more than 12 miles away from his last known location. Now, the fact that he was found in that specific location didn't really make a lot of sense with the way that the currents were flowing, but honestly, that was like the least sinister thing about the discovery of his body. Here's what we'll get into. I'm ready for the sinister situation. Usually drowning victims, as you know, are found in the water face down. Like most of the time, like there obviously things happen where it's not always like that. Absolutely. Now, this was one of those cases. Patrick was recovered on his back, but there was no evidence of levidity in his back area in the autopsy photos. So I guess you could say

at the same time that the conditions in the water maybe like flipped him around in that position, which is fair, but wait a second because there's more. Patrick seemed to be like really intoxicated while walking down the street, like he was literally stumbling. But then when they tested his blood alcohol concentration, it turned out to be 0.16, which, like, okay. And the body, and because the body naturally produces more alcohol in the process of decomposition, it was fair to assume that his actual blood alcohol content was 0.12. Okay. So, like, that's not super drunk at all.

That's about six drinks, which for me and you would be like super duper drunk. but he was 195 pounds and six feet tall. So he was like a big dude. Yeah. So obviously like it's definitely drunk, but not drunk enough to be in the state that he was in. Yeah. I mean, six drinks to me sounds like a lot of drinks. See, me too, but it's like he's super duper tall.

And like then I think about going out with my guy friends and I'm like they'll throw back like three beers at a couple hours. It's hard to judge because it's always based on like weight and, you know. Right. So yeah. Yeah. That is weird. It sounds like a lot.

But I don't know. Maybe some of our dudes or like taller women can weigh in here. Where my dudes at? Where my dudes and tall women at? Yeah, because I think about it and I'm like, John's like six foot three or four. And I think that would probably not. I've never seen him like that drunk. No, like falling over, throwing up and everything.

Yeah. I don't know. It just seems weird. So a lot of people were like, was he drugged? Yeah. It seems like there was something a little like a kind of like a roofy situation there. Yeah. Now it also seemed as though there were some kind of ligature tied around Patrick's neck.

at one point because the medical examiner notes in the autopsy report quote circumferentially around the neck there is a pattern which consists of numerous vertical lines evenly spaced about one sixteenth of an inch apart around his neck in a pattern as if to as if to suggest some type of binding that's interesting so it's like okay then why was it rolled an accident that's very interesting super duper weird the autopsy also notes that there was severe blackening around the head head in the upper torso. And the medical examiner surmised that this was because of not only advanced decomp, but also an extended period of exposure to the elements. However, a team of retired detectives and one doctor disagree. Okay. Now, Kevin Gannon, Anthony, Tony Duarte, Mike Donovan, and Dr. Lee, Doc Gilbertson make up the global death investigations team. Badass. They're so badass. They all agree that after looking at the autopsy and how they're, they're notherstance, and having another set of super professional eyes look at it too, that the head to waste blackening on Patrick's body was due to burning, not exposure of the elements.

Really? Because the areas where the skin was blackened were not what you would expect from an exposure to the elements and especially not water. Usually when bodies are found in water, as you well know, they're bloated. Yeah. And the blackened skin that was on Patrick had contracted. Okay. Which was like pretty weird, which is like usually due to flame.

and heat. Yes, exactly. Now, Dr. Cyril Wecht agreed with the team's theory, and he's like a super, super famous pathologist, that the blackening skin was in fact due to burning to the point of skin charring. Wow. Yeah. And together, they all agreed that it looked as though Patrick had been bound by his neck to a chair while being burned and that he was alive when this occurred. What the fuck? Insane. Now, there wasn't a lot of charing around the back area, so they believe that his back was pushed against the chair when this all happened. Oh, okay. And there was like lower red marbling around like where his pants would have been, which is a sign of like it kind of stopped there because the pants was just going right to that point. Exactly. So like what? Like that's

absolutely terrifying. Now they noted something else of importance too. If the top portion of Patrick's body was black because of environmental factors and decomposition, then why were his feet not equally decomposed. Well, that was going to be my question. It's like, but why wouldn't the lower part? Why wouldn't the lower part be super decomposed? I mean, that's the part that's, your feet are exposed. Exposed and in the water. And over a period of like 50 days he's been in this water, like some, like you're going to have slippage, right? Oh, yeah. No. No signs of slippage whatsoever, which is not only uncommon, just like essentially unheard of in cases like this where a body has been in the water for that long. This one sounds like murder.

So if that's the case, was Patrick on land for some of the time that he was missing? Yes. Seems like it. That would certainly seem to be the case, especially because there were fly eggs found in the groin area of Patrick's body. Now, four doctors, including the pretty famous forensic pathologist, like I said, Dr. Cyril Wecht and Dr. Richard Jantz, who is from the body farm. Yep. They agreed that it's highly unlikely these eggs were laid while Patrick's body was in the water.

Yeah. It would have been far too cold in need. York in the middle of February and water like the water would have been even colder. Oh 100%. So it just it wouldn't have happened. And especially like from the body farm, they know. Yeah, of course. When the, you know, like they know they test all the different conditions. They've seen every single different condition. And it's like, so for them to say that to be like, yeah, no, I don't think that's how that worked. Like you can trust that. And they were two of four doctors. That all agreed that like, no. Yeah. It just that doesn't that doesn't like vibe.

with me. Doesn't jive or vibe. It doesn't do any of it. Now, Kevin Gannon actually was one of the original detectives on Patrick's case back in 97. And he is the one who set out on this mission to like figure out what happened to Patrick because he promised his parents, Pat Senior and Jackie McNeil, that he would find out who murdered their son and bring this person to justice. Those poor people. And he has spent the past 24 years trying to keep that promise to find out not only what happened to Patrick, but these countless other young men that I've been talking about. Yeah. Because they're all dying under pretty similar super suspicious circumstances.

Now, unfortunately, Patrick's death still remains listed as an accidental drowning to this day. How? I have no idea. Like, the ligature thing really is like, I don't know. The ligature thing makes absolutely no sense. And for the medical examiner, the pathologist, to say in the thing that it appears he has been bound by his neck. Right. And then to list it an accidental drought.

Like, what? The only thing that I can think of is it's like he was in the water, is he thinking that, like, he got, like, caught up in something? Like, something. Because immediately when you first brought that up, that's your first thought. The devil's advocate in me was like, well, if he's been in the water a long time, maybe he got caught up in something like a net or something. Exactly. And it pressed into his neck and it made it look like that. And then the currents took them out. And that's what you, sorry, sorry, I just like through my computer. But I'm like talking with my hands. But then you have that and then you have everything else. When you put all, it's like when you put all the rest of the puzzle pieces together, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, just the, you know, the darkening on the top half of the body and that it's like,

no slippage. On the bottom. On the bottom. No slippage in the water for that long. I mean, for these experts to be saying, like, this is burns, not just plain old decomp. Right. That's interesting. Right. And the fact that the body wasn't bloated, because I feel like you and I have talked about like a couple like bodies that have been found in water. I mean, like think about Hallie Ellingsworth. But she was, she became soap. She was in there for so long. And it's like, of course, temperature, like, can mess around with things, especially, like, decomposition

really is dependent on temperature. And, you know, this was in the middle of, like, the freezing part of the time of year. Right. But I don't know. But just with the other factors, it's just like, what? And the fly, the eggs. The eggs, that was the part that, like, sent me. That's very interesting.

And in part two, we're going to get to like another kind of like insect. We're going to look a little more into that. And you're going to be, I already told you some of it, but I tell you all of it. And you're going to be like, okay, I'm convinced. Okay. What? Did, was there any mention? And maybe there wasn't because I know, like, they don't release everything. Was there like any mention of like hair? And like, was it charred? I didn't see any mention of his hair and like what I looked through because I couldn't find the autopsy report for him. I know. I'm dying to read it. Exactly. Now I want to know. But I can, I can. I can. I can. answer that in part two if I find the answer. Yeah, we'll try to find it. Yeah. Because I'm interested to see if, like, the hair gave any kind of indication of fire as well. It's funny that, well, fire for sure. Like,

obviously that would happen. But it's funny that you mentioned hair because that comes into play in one of the next victims. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, that was weird. That was like a really good segue. Look at me just segueing for you. Yeah. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Now, just one year after Patrick's body was found, another young man was discovered dead having drowned after a night out with his friends. And the creepiest part is that he was found in almost the exact same location where Patrick was found a year earlier. This man was Lawrence. He went by Larry Andrews. He was 22 years old and he was from Brewster, New York. Now, like most of the victims we'll talk about, he was a young college guy with a bright future ahead of him. He had taken

the train into New York City, or excuse me, he had taken the train into the city on New Year's Eve in 1997 to go out and celebrate with his friends in Times Square. At some point, they all watched the ball drop, but after that he got separated from them. And people did see him in a bar near Grand Central Station and said that he appeared to be drunk but not incoherent. So it's strange that just like in Patrick's case, Larry's body was found about 12 miles from where he was last seen. Hmm.

That is interesting. Same location where they were found, but like different locations before they were. That's really interesting. But like just about 12 miles. Like same dump site. Yeah, super weird. Now Kevin Gannon and his. Susan Andrews, Larry's mother agree that Larry's death was no accident and definitely not a suicide.

It was far too similar to Patrick's case and Larry was not known to be suicidal at all. His sister was just about to get married. So he was looking forward to that and he also had upcoming plans to go on a skiing trip. Now the more and more Kevin started looking into these cases, he was realizing that there were more than just similarities between the victims, but also the areas in which they were found. In many cases, smiley faces were being graffitied nearby where the bodies were discovered. And you can argue, again, devil's advocate, that smiley faces are like super, super common. I mean, I could go outside right now and probably find five. Yeah.

But it definitely felt like more than a coincidence to Detective Gannon at least. It's interesting, say the least. It is. And you know what? It's not at all of these sites. So it is important to know, like, I'm going to be totally transparent with you here. Because I, the smiley face is like a little bit much. for in my opinion. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. It's something to take note of. Yeah, like I'm going to take

note of it every time it's there, but it adds an element of like theater. It does. It does. And I think that's why people like, like, clench onto it, which I get. I know we all want to like see that like, you know, oh, there's a smiley face at all the crime scene. Right. But who knows? Yeah, you never know. Yeah. Now, we're going to talk about how reliable this team is because obviously you want to know that people this are like in it for the right reasons. Yeah. So Kevin Gannon and all the members of his team are very reliable sources. Kevin worked on the NYPD for 20 years and during his time on the force, he received over a hundred medals, including two medals of valor for heroism in the line of duty. So he's a badass motherfucker. He also was in charge of the Bronx Homicide Task Force for three years.

Damn. Tony Dewart, another part of this team, was in law enforcement for a total of 21 years. He also also received many medals for things such as excellence in police duty. Very, very reliable person. Mike Dunaven worked with Kevin and Tony for 20 years as well. He has also worked on hundreds of homicide cases. He actually worked on the elite special anti-crack unit of the Organized Crime Control Bureau. And fun fact, not like fun fact, but he was a first responder in 9-11. Wow.

Yeah. So, again, very reliable source. And the final member of this team is Dr. Lee. Gilbertson, who goes by Doc, which I love. He is a PhD in sociology with a focus in gangs and substance abuse. He is a certified gang specialist and also a three-time recipient of the Frederick Milton Thrasher Award. He won it in 2002, 2005, and 2008. And he is also an executive editor for the Journal of Gang Research. All right. So there are their qualifications just right up front. Now, damn. Yeah, they're a bunch of badasses. You got to watch the documentary that I'm

going to talk about in a second. Oh, yeah. Because in 2008, this team decided to go public with their theory for the first time about the smiley face killers. By that point, they had about 40 cases across the U.S. that they believed to have been connected, although, like I said, now there are hundreds. They believed that there was a gang of serial killers working together across about 25 major cities, which scarily enough are mainly on the East Coast. Not awesome for us. Not awesome. And of course, they believe that they're targeting young, smart, athletic, and typically

white college men. It seemed that the M.O. was to somehow pick one of these men while they're out drinking with friends and secretly drug them. Once they're separated from the group, they would be kidnapped. And at this point, they believe likely held for a period of days and probably tortured to some degree, obviously, based on what we spoke about with Patrick, and then disposed in a body of water. The gang would then spray paint sometimes a smiley face nearby,

presumably to like tag the area being like hey like other gang members like I did this one here I guess kind of thing yeah um and in 2018 like I was just saying a docu series that premiered on oxygen called smiley face killers the hunt for justice holy shit stop whatever you're doing I bought the whole thing on amazon it was like $11 like I'll Venmo you $11 to watch it I'm just kidding uh I feel like I won't that's not true but the series followed the team around to different cities where each of the victim's families was interviewed, and then the evidence was gone through again with a fine-tooth comb, usually showing that the cause of death did not line up with what the body and other evidence told the investigators.

And one of Kevin Gannon's major point and points in this whole thing is that, quote, the lack of decomposition on the bodies is inconsistent with the period of time that the victims are missing. It's a huge part of this. That's the big, like, question mark here. It's a huge part of this. And after watching the series, I was on their side and I went further to, the rabbit hole and now I'm honestly just like moderately terrified. So my my thing here that I'm

going to like hang on to yeah is the only questions that will like linger in my brain about this is like where are they bringing them and holding them right? Because there needs to be a place. Absolutely. And then why? Okay. See like why why is the biggest question and I think why is the biggest question that like nobody's really answered. I mean yeah I saw like different theories on like Reddit and like just like little, like, crime posts and stuff that are interesting, but I don't want to get into because obviously, I have no idea. I have no basis to share that. You know what I mean? Like, everybody can speculate what they want. Yeah. So honestly, I mean, it is interesting to go through and kind of check out the M.O. For sure. If you want to do the, or excuse me, the,

motivation, if you want to look at that on your own. But I think it's like the, because if they are doing this, if this is like a big ring. Why? Of people. It's like, whoa. First of all. And then Second of all, it's like, where is this happening? Like, where is this torture happening? Where is like the headquarters? Where are they holding these men? You know, like, I need, I need somebody to give me a place or like a probable place that this is happening. Because it has to be somewhere. But here's the thing. It's across 25 major cities. It could be fucking anywhere. Well, and there's multiple places, I'm sure.

That's the other thing because it's like if you're holding a grown ass man for like several days to weeks, torturing them. Like, you've got to have a pretty good place to do that. that's like away from a lot of people that's like very well and I think it's that's another scary part of this is that they're targeting men and a lot of these men were very athletic like they're tall tall like I mean I just said that one of them was six foot tall and 195 pounds I mean he could take you for sure yeah and a lot of them are built and like it just you're like why how I don't understand and obviously it's not a typical you know victim profile for most serial killers. Usually serial killers do go after women, you know? And so it's interesting to see like this

giant possible ring. It really is. That is only targeting these like, you know, pretty like, you know, middle class white dudes. Yeah. Like it's just no weird. It really like doesn't make any sense. It's very strange. I think that's another part of why people like to kind of hold on to like the smiley face killer theory is that like it freaks you out because you're like. And like there aren't like answers really. So you can just continue to go further and further down a rabbit hole. Like the first one, like, to me, that seems like murder. It seems like murder with all the, obviously eyewitnesses are pretty unreliable. It's a little hard.

So like, depending on the amount of people that said that that van was following them, and like the fact that they had a partial license plate that tells me someone saw something. Exactly. So that's interesting. Something enough to like write down a license plate. Exactly. How many fucking license plates do you write down? Yeah.

So it's like that is interesting. It is. me. Well, I think the second one is pretty interesting, too. Or excuse me, third now. So if we're going chronologically, which I'm going to try to do, then Brian Wilsene is who we should talk about next. Brian was a 21-year-old college student in Chicago. His mother, Stephanie, says that Brian was the best thing she ever did. Oh, my God. Which ruined me. That's destroy my heart. He was a super bright kid, like all the others. He was making honors in his classes, and he was on the dean's list. He was a finance major, and he was really good at all things money related. His mom's

that he liked to spend her money instead, though. It was just like a cute little comment. Who doesn't? Now, a major red flag here, Brian wasn't really a drinker. Like, he didn't really drink a lot. Okay. So when his body was discovered washed up on a beach in Gary, Indiana, 30 miles away from where he was believed to have entered the water on Lake Michigan, and law enforcement

claimed that this was an accident fueled by drinking, everyone was like, no, it wasn't. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Now, Brian, just like Larry Andrews, had gone out with friends for New Year's. So we have two New Year's cases here, which is a little creepy, except this one was in 1999. And New Year's tends to be the time when people get wild and they get drunk and accidents happen. I'm just saying. No, that's absolutely fair. That's absolutely fair.

I don't mean the actual way. No, it's true. You're right. And I think it's good to have, like, hell, yeah, I know this is happening. And like you being like, I'm literally in the middle. I'm going to wait and see. I can see. I can see both sides here.

I think each person listening is probably like team Elena or T-ash in this one. Or just team neither of us, I guess, since you're in the middle. They're like, it's not real. It's not real. I disagree with you. So Brian's best friend, Nick, was out with him that night and he said, Brian only had a couple of drinks. Now, I will be devil's advocate so I don't have to listen to you do it. They were drinking Long Island iced teas and we all know that those will fuck you up.

I was going to say so. Because those are different every time you go. Yeah, you never know what you're going to get with a Long Island. You can get straight up iced teas. Or you could get, you know, lava from a volcano. Literally. So you have no idea. I've, like, gone, I've, like, dining gone to heaven and, like, come all the way back multiple times when drinking Long Island.

Oh, I've seen the nether world. Yeah, I've seen some shit. Yeah. But, again, he's, like, he's a taller dude, like, you know. Yeah. He metabolizes things a little differently than you and me. For sure. So everyone in their group of friends also pretty much have the same amount to drink.

So at least we can look at that as well. Okay. And hopefully we can just assume that they all have the same. bartender before you've said you can say it. So one step ahead of you. You can just like sense it in my eyes. I can't. I'm going to stop looking at you. Now the only difference between Brian and everybody else was that Brian got extremely ill, like Patrick McNeil ill, like very eel, eel, very eel, to the point of falling over. Same thing. He left the bar with his friends. Thank God that they left with him. And they headed back. They were actually staying at a hotel that night.

So while they were driving back, Brian got sick in the car. And when they got back to the hotel, his friends went up to get some cleaning supplies to obviously clean up. But the doorman would not let Brian back in the hotel because he was so, he believed he was so drunk, obviously. It was then somehow, it's really unclear how this all happened, but somehow Brian got separated from his friends in that moment. And multiple people. What happened there?

I think they went up to like get the cleaning supplies. And maybe he wandered away or something. And I think he just wandered off. Exactly. Or like maybe got sick or was like kneeling over to get sick and somebody grabbed him. Who knows? I don't know. That's the whole point of this.

Nobody knows. So we have no fucking clue. Exactly. Multiple people witnessed him throwing up and stumbling down the street. I'm again confused why nobody stopped to help this boy. But again, after that night, it would be a full 77 days before anyone saw Brian again. That's a lot of days. It's about three.

That's like two and a half months, almost three. It's a lot of days. Now, Nick, who was out with Brian the night before, called his mom, Stephanie the next day to see if Brian was there because he hadn't returned back to the dorms. And Stephanie right away knew something was off. And later, when she was notified that Brian was missing, she, this lady is a badass. She started searching right away. She was going into the city to hand out flyers of Brian and just looking for any lead she could. That kills me. She, at first, the police wouldn't take Brian's disappearance seriously, probably because it happened on New Year's and he's in college and they just don't take things seriously, I guess.

So, she gathered a ton of people from her church to show up at the station, like, demanding that something be done about this. And this is horrible. Brian's father had passed away the year before in his sleep. So I can't imagine. This poor woman. And then to deal with your son being missing for two and a half months, like, I can't imagine. guy he was too i'm looking up these men they're all super handsome he is super handsome they all are yeah so like i like i said though i can't imagine what she was going through like she just lost her husband

and now she's lost her son but she has no idea where he is like it's that kind of grief where you're like you don't even know what you're you don't even know what to yeah you don't know what to grieve over some people i'm like why does some people just get hammered with that kind of stuff like oh you hear about like families that just like never catch a break exactly. But I am happy because she had like our church around her and she had a network like helping her through it all. So I'm happy that she had that. Now when Ryan's body did wash up on that beach like I said in Gary Indiana, 77 days later, there were a lot of questions to be asked. For one thing, why did it take so long for his body to get there? Why was he only moderately decomposed after being in

the water for 77 days? And how did he end up in the water in the first place? Now, If Brian took the route that the original investigators believed that he did to get to this point in the water, he would have had to cross 10 lanes of traffic and four of them were going one way and then like a bunch of them were going another way. Or he would have had to navigate an underground tunnel. And looking at the state he was in, I don't think either two of those things would have happened. Yeah. It just seems like when people wander away drunk, they don't wander like 65 miles away. They wander like a little ways away.

Exactly. They can get themselves in trouble if there's like a body of water nearby. Right, of course. But that seems like a lot. It's super weird. And it's worth mentioning that Brian wasn't really familiar with the Chicago area. So it does make sense that he could get lost. But like to get this lost, whoa.

Yeah. And even if he did, excuse me, even if they did do this and he fell in the water, why did he wash up 30 miles away after such a long period of time? Yeah. Now, the police sergeant. Sergeant Fizikas was on the case originally, and he appeared on that oxygen series that I talked about, and he was talking to the team, re-investigating everything. And he said that in his 29 years on the force, it was the first time that a body had washed up on this shore. Really? Yes. And he said

that Brian looked like he had been missing for a week. Now, this is like a police sergeant who's been on the force for 29 years. And he looked like he had been missing for a week? A week. Yes. Now, of course, it is possible that over the course of those days, Brian's body could have floated the 30 miles over to Indiana from Chicago. Of course. But realistically, and actually statistically, it should have happened a lot sooner. Now, on the series that I've been talking about, they were able to go over all of the previous bodies found in like this area. And they were able to see that in that 30-mile stretch of water, all those bodies that were there, the longest it took a body to get even near the proximity of where Brian's body was found was 36 hours.

I thought, even if you had said 36 days, I was going to be like, that's a lot of days. 36 hours was the longest? The longest. And he was 77 days. Like, this is essentially impossible. That's, that's, that's unprecedented. It absolutely is. That's truly outrageous.

Now, again, let's look at the blood alcohol concentration. Let's look at it. So, Bryan's was reported at 0.084, which for reference is almost sober enough to operate a vehicle. I was just going to say that's low. Now, obviously, and this is where it gets a little bit confusing, because he had thrown up. So a lot. A lot. A lot. Like a lot, a lot. And we can assume, like I said, a pretty good amount because of whatever he drank, like came back up. However, we don't know how soon after he started, we don't know how soon he started throwing up after he had drank.

So we don't know how much of that already metabolized. exactly. Thank you. You're welcome. Now, if the concentration was that low, but he was so clearly ill, it's not an out-of-this-world assumption that he had been drugged. For sure. Clearly, somebody slipped something in his drink. Yeah. But unfortunately, during the autopsy, they didn't test to see for those particular kind of drugs. Like, you have to test for those. Yeah, it's like a specific order. And they didn't because they just, they thought this was an accident, unfortunately. So let's get into Elena's territory a little bit here. Let's do it. Because I'm going to need you. I'm excited. I tried my best to look into all of this, but I was like, you know what, I know that I have her, so.

Somebody use her. Now, Brian's back showed fixed lividity, meaning that he was laying on his back for a good portion of the time after he died and probably when he died? Yeah, probably. Okay. He was at least maybe when he died, it's more that he was spending the most time laying on his back after death. Okay. Because it's usually it's after death that it starts to. Lividity starts to set in. Because everything settles where the lowest point of gravity is. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Now, from what I've read, it is very unlikely that a victim of drowning would show fixed levidity in general, but especially on the back area. Yeah.

Okay. Now, Dr. Lee Gilbertson further confirmed that when he said, quote, this is inconsistent with a body in turbulent water like Lake Michigan. He should have had levidity on all sides, not fixed to one side. Because that would indicate that he literally did not move. Like, he was just on his back. That entire time. the entire time and never even like bobbed or anything around where like any kind of, which in the water.

Which in the water, I just, I don't know. And again, this is the wintertime and it's Lake Michigan. Yeah. It's not like it's like glass. No. I mean, he washed up on a beach. Like we all see the tide going in and out. He would have moved even just in that moment. Yeah. I would imagine you would see it more than on their back, but I would think so. And so would Dr. Lee. Well, there you go. Doc. Now, there was also no fluid found in Ryan's lungs at all. Yeah, that's interesting. All of his organs were well intact, which being in the water for 77 days, I would assume that your organs maybe get like bloated or something. I don't really know a lot about what the organs, what the insides do in water, but the no water in the lungs is very interesting.

Super weird. And there was no sand found in the esophagus or the stomach. Now, when Dr. Cyril lect, my dude, went over that particular bit of information, he said that he believed it was. he believed it was highly unlikely that Brian entered that water alive and drowned. He agreed with the team that Brian was likely murdered somewhere else before he ever entered that water. And Dr. Gilbertson believes that when Brian's body was found, he had only been dead for about 36 hours.

Wow. Yeah. Because, yeah, it's like if the, especially the levidity thing. It's like it seems to me like he was lying on his back on a flat surface. Yeah. After he was killed, the lividity fixed. and then they threw him in the water. Exactly.

After that was already done. So the only reason that I said that the hair stuff was going to come back is because a small patch of his hair was like missing. Like clearly had been like like like just gone. Mechanically removed or something? Yeah. Like just gone. Wow.

Which is weird. That is weird. But they didn't get like super into that and I couldn't find like a ton on it. So I didn't know if that would happen after 36 hours in the water. I don't know why that would happen. I don't either. Unless there was like scalp slippage. But it doesn't sound like there was.

Yeah, that's strange. Now, the good thing about this particular case is that Sergeant Fizekas agreed to reopen Brian's case. Oh, good. So they reopened it back in 2018. I haven't seen anything that's come of it, like yet, but I mean, at least it's open. I'm glad they're reopening. And they're looking into new possibilities.

Huh. Now, the next case that I want to talk about and probably who we're going to end on, I think, is Luke Holman. Okay. Luke was a 21-year-old college student going to school in La Cree. Wisconsin. Whoa. I don't know if you heard that. The door just slammed because the wind. His case is like really eerie to me because he and his parents had actually talked about all of the drownings that had been going on in that area when Luke was deciding where to go to school.

I hate when that happens in a case when a victim is like talking about the other victims before they become a victim. It's like... And that happens not once but twice in this case. That was the first example. And just definitely worth noting, LaCross actually has the most cases associated with the Smiley Case Killers. Huh. With Smiley Face killers, excuse me. Smiley Case killers. Auto correct.

With over 20 mysterious, quote-unquote, drownings. So there's over 20 there that they believe are. Interesting. We have some in Boston, right? Oh, yeah, and we'll get into those. Yeah, we have a bunch of Boston. We have about 12 in Boston. I was going to say, I thought it was more, it was like a dozen.

Yeah. Now, but Luke decided to go anyways. He didn't like water anyway. way. So he said, I'm not even going to be around the water. Like, I'm not going to slip and fall in. And once he was actually talking to his friends and he said, quote, you'd have to be a dummy to drown in the river because when you see the river, you know you're going the wrong way, which is true that you are going the wrong way, not that you'd have to be a dummy. Not that you'd have to be a dummy. Because obviously, if I was talking to him, I'd be like, yes, but the whole story of these men is that

they are very disoriented and not with it when they enter the water. But at this point, I don't even think that like the smiley face killer thing was like, that. Like the details were all up. Nobody was really talking about it that much. It's only really in recent years. It's crazy because it's been happening since 1997, but it's only really in recent years that we've heard a lot about it. It's been happening almost the entire time. My entire life. Wow. Yeah. Super crazy. Now, it is true that the Mississippi River is in the complete opposite direction of all the bars and the way that you would go if you were going back to campus or like heading back in for the night. But that only makes things like super stranger. Yeah. Because if everyone going to

school there or in the area knows that, then they probably would avoid that area. That's true. Meaning, like, these aren't accidental drownings. Allegedly, in my opinion. Now, Luke avoided that particular area himself because, like I said, he didn't like water. But after he went missing in September of 2006, that is where his body was found, just like the countless other men that had died there before him. That is so spooky.

So creepy. Not only one, but two instances where he was talking about it. And his parents were literally worried for him to go there. Oh, that stresses me. They were like, just be smart. And like, oh, my God, I freaking love his parents. They were on the documentary. And just all the parents on the documentary, I just want to envelop them in a group hug and never let them go.

It's so heartbreaking. These are such, like, young guys. They're such young guys. And these parents just seem like, it's like how we talked about in the Heather Bish case, or the Molly Bish case when we were talking to Heather. It's like, you feel connected to these families because they're your everyday family. They could be your family. They feel like your family.

And a lot of these parents. in the cases it feels that way. Yeah. Now, Luke was a star basketball player at the time, and he was going out, that was just like I was saying that he was, and he was going out to celebrate October Fest with his friends. Those two things don't correlate, but I wanted to point out that he was really good at basketball. Yeah, he was also a good basketball player. Yes, because it's worth mentioning to another athlete.

A tall guy, an athletic guy? Yes. Now, at one point or another, he got separated from the group. No one is really exactly sure how. One of his friends, who appeared in the documentary, said that, like, a group of them were leaving, the bar that they were at, and he was staying there with one other guy. Okay. Who he was, like, acquaintances with.

Okay. Which, like, I'm always like, how are they getting separated from all their friends? But then you think about it, and, like, that's been the first part of, like, so many cases that we've done. It really has. And every single time, I'm always like, how, though? How does that happen? Right.

How does that happen? But, like, also, I love you, but you're not really a party animal. No, I'm not. Which, like, is not an insult. I was just like, but, like, I could see, like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. I could see me getting. separated from my friends. And I think like it's, I would never let any of my friends get,

yeah, go, get away from me. So like, but you know what? Actually, now that I think about it, I've put myself in the position multiple times where I was like, yeah, you have. I've separated, I personally separated myself for my friends and gone to do something different. Yeah. What's up with that? It's not smart because I host a true crime podcast, but. That's very true. Those days are gone. Anyways, they are. They're behind you. But back to this. Now, they found Luke's body in the Mississippi River and promptly ruled it in accidental drowning. Excuse me, I skipped over something. He got separated from the group and it was three days later that his body was found.

Okay. So his was found pretty quickly. The body showed defensive and offensive wounds and there was some kind of abrasion to his forehead and small scratches that the initial investigators called travel abrasions. Now, the markings on Luke's forehead weren't exactly consistent with being travel abrasions, though, because what they meant by this was that basically while he was trying to for lack of a better term, down the river. His face came into contact with small rocks on the bottom of the river or other objects that

would have left him with scratches. Yeah. But the problem in Luke's case is that the abrasions to his face were going in different directions. And when you're flowing down a river, you're typically going one way. That's true. So that's just like a little thing. But your body could bob a little.

Yeah, for sure. You know. Now, the other thing is that the defensive and offensive wounds were explained away because there was a rumor of an altercation near the last bar. that Luke was seen that night. This altercation was to have gone down next to the bar in an alleyway. Unfortunately, though, this is like another thing. No one knows exactly what happened because, again, he got separated from his friend group and the original investigators just kind of were like, yeah, like we don't know. Something happened. Yeah. Now, the abrasion on Luke's head was actually

brought by the new investigators to a man named William Moore. Now, William Moore is a forensic toolmark analyst and Dr. Gilbertson explained that what they were hoping to do was identify what made the mark on Luke's forehead. Now remember there's a mark and their scratches. So right now we're talking about the mark. So get this. William Moore's professional opinion is that the abrasion on Luke's head is of a boot print. And what we're seeing is that someone most likely pinned down Luke and held him there with like the toe of his boot. And when you see them place the imprint of like what the shoe would look like over the thing or the abrasion on his head, you're like, how did I not see that to begin with? Like, that absolutely is a boot. See if you can maybe find a picture of it. It's crazy.

Now, when Kevin and his team were re-investigating, they also found out that the band members playing at the bar that night had actually been interviewed by police in the original investigation. And one of the guys in the band got into an altercation with another guy, who I guess we could assume may have been Luke, for like peeing near his band equipment while he was past. packing up his van. The band members were actually asked to bring their van in so that the police could like kind of check it out and get to know them. And a cadaver dog responded to a scent near the rear passenger compartment. Ooh, you want to know what was done about that? They just let the van go. Are you kidding me? And they like lost all the information. They just, they were just like,

well, just let it go. Yeah. Just let it go. It's not, we don't think it's right. Yeah, just let that go. It was an accident. What? They just like let the van go. How does that happen? Why would you just not even look into it a little bit more? The dog responded to it. Just take a peek. Right. Like, you might as well.

You were there. Exactly. Wow. Now, one of the things that the new investigative team wanted to do was test Luke's clothing for any kind of like DNA or anything else that could lead to answers that maybe was missed the first time around. Yeah. Unfortunately, they didn't find any DNA.

But they did find tons of fluorescent orange specs on Luke's clothing. originally only to have been found on the sweatshirt, but upon performing the test again, the specs were also on his jeans. Now, what's creepy about this is that the smiley face painted nearby that's associated with Luke's murder was painted in fluorescent orange paint. Now, like, that's kind of the only smiley face that I'm like, oh, that had something to do with it. That's very interesting.

In my personal opinion. And when they tested to see what the specs were, they were able to. and they determined them to be from nail polish, which sometimes is like sold in spray form and used for graffiti. Oh. So, boom, roasted. Interesting. And you know what?

This print really, you could see that it could look like a boot print. It looks just like a fucking blueprint. I mean, it could maybe be. I don't know what else it would be because that's not my job. Yeah. I mean, it's a very intense boot print. Yeah. But like, I mean, it was probably an intense moment where he was holding him down.

Yeah. That's interesting. It doesn't really look like it moved at all, but maybe it was like deep in there or something. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Now, there's a couple other strange things about Luke's clothing. For one thing, I mean, he traveled down the Mississippi River for three days, so you would assume

he'd be like covered in mud. You would think so. Like absolutely covered in mud, like super duper dirty. But what's weird is that his clothes actually weren't that dirty. And it was much more consistent with him only having, have been in the water for about three to 12 hours. So that's like a maximum of one day. So where was he for the rest of the time that he spent missing? And the other thing that they realized was that two of his back belt loops were broken and looked like they'd been like forcefully yanked off. It was like they were still attached to like

the top part but had been broken from the bottom. Like somebody pulled up on them. Like they were like yanked. Now could whoever was pinning him down have been working with other people who like picked him up to drag him somewhere else and that's how they got torn off? It seems like it could happen. I think that seems like it could happen. Because why else? Yeah, that's interesting. And like it could have happened in the water, but these were the back belt loops and he was traveling

faced first, which like, I don't know, you could argue like the same thing from the beginning that he got caught on something, but it would have had to be pretty forceful. Yeah. So that's super duper weird. And it is consistent with somebody like using the belt loops to like pull them up or something. That's what I think. Yeah. Now, Kevin went with Patty Holman to share what they had found in their reinvestigating.

in the hopes to have Luke's manner of death changed to homicide so that they could reopen the case. I haven't seen any update a past 2019 on whether or not they've been able to reopen this case. I'm dying. I know. This is so frustrating. It really is. I was just like moving when I said that. So sorry if I was like, it really is from another planet.

It's crazy. No, this is because there's plenty of places where you could be like, well, this could have happen. But then there's plenty of places that you're like, what? Exactly. Like every time, I was watching and I was like, okay, well, like, you can explain that. And then I was like, oh, we, you can't explain that. Yeah. And then there's something that you can explain both ways. Right. But I think the one that like really, really fucks with me is Brian because he was in the water for 77 days and looked like he had only been in the water for a week. Yeah, that one's, that one's throwing me off. Yeah, like, what? It's in, this is just a lot. It's a lot of information. So I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to

going to let you process all of that information. Before we move on to part two. Before we move on to part two, where we're going to talk about three, four, actually, four more cases. Oh, my God. And then I guess I'll find out whether or not you're convinced. I'm very interested. I'm glad. I am too. I just, I like don't want this to be over. Like, I could research this for years to come. I know. I was going to say, I want to like just keep going and like cover all of them. It's so interesting. Maybe we'll do like a spinoff series. Maybe we'll just do a couple more. We'll be like, we're going hit a few more. Hey, maybe we could do that for Patreon actually. Yeah, there you go. We'll hit all the cases that we can find. I love that. Wow. Well, guys, in part two, we're going to see

whether or not you agree with me, and we're going to talk about four more of these victims, and we'll see you then. So take some time, chew on it. Take some time, chew on it. We hope you keep listening to the other episodes, and we hope you keep it. But that's over there. You don't look a little bit more into this while I'm waiting for part two. Bye. Bye. I don't know.