Morbid - The Murder Of Jack Wilson

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

On the evening of May 22, 1992, Betty Wilson returned home from an AA meeting to find her husband, Dr. Jack Wilson, had been beaten and stabbed to death in what she assumed was a burglary gone wrong. Betty ran to a neighbor’s house to call 911, and police arrived at the Wilson’s house a short time later to secure the scene.At first, investigators agreed with Betty’s theory that Jack had surprised a burglar and was then killed. The problem, however, was that nothing appeared to have been taken, nor did it appear that the house had been ransacked. A few days later, a tip led detectives to James White, who quickly confessed that he murdered Jack Wilson at the request of Betty and her twin sister, Peggy Lowe, with whom he was in love. Betty Wilson and her sister, Peggy, were both arrested and went on to be tried for capital murder, while James White accepted a plea deal in exchange for testifying against both women. After a brief trial, a jury found Betty guilty, and she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Peggy Lowe, on the other hand, was tried for the same crime, but just a few months after her sister’s verdict was read, Peggy was found not guilty. How was it both women could face the same charges, under the same circumstances, and be tried with the same evidence, but receive opposite outcomes? Thank you to David White, of Bring Me the Axe podcast, for research!ReferencesAssociated Press. 1992. "Friends of accused express disbelief." Montgomery Advertiser, July 13: 13.—. 1992. "Suspect's former lover quits post." Montgomery Advertiser, June 24: 18.—. 1992. "Twin sisters suspects in man's murder." Selma Times-Journal, June 7: 7.Betty Woods Wilson v. State of Alabama. 1995. 690 So. 2d 449 (Court of Criminal Appeals of Alabama, May 5).Carey, Bob. 1998. "The Murder." Old Huntsville: History and Stories of the Tennessee Valley, 1.Dunnavant, Robert. 1992. "Shelby man says he killed doctor to win twin's love." Birmingham Post-Herald, June 6: 1.1996. Forensic Files. Produced by Paul Bourdett. Performed by Ed Freeman.Marshall, Mike. 2006. "Serving time for murdering husband, Betty Wilson remarries in prison." Dothan Eagle, May 3: 3.Newberry, Paul. 1993. "Surprise testimony in Wilson murder trial." Anniston Star, February 28: 1.—. 1993. "Wilson defense mocks, picks apart testimony ." Birmingham Post-Herald, February 25: 1.Reeves, Jay. 1993. "Betty Wilson silent as jury gets her case." Anniston Star, March 2: 2.—. 1993. "Deliberation starts in case of woman accused of plotting husband's slaying." Montgomery Advertiser, March 3: 1.Richardson, Sandee. 1993. "Wilson trial begins." Birmingham Post-Herald, February 24: 1.Schutze, Jim. 2023. By Two and Two: The Scandalous Story of Twin Sisters Accused of a Shocking Crime of Passion. New York, NY: Open Road Media.Sikora, Frank. 1993. "Mrs. Wilson's disgust toward husband detailed." Birmingham Post-Herald, February 27: 1.Thornton, Donna. 2022. "Filmmaker contends doctor's wife wrongly convicted." Montgomery Advertiser, August 29: 1.Wilson, Betty. 1998. "The Betty Wilson story." Old Huntsville: History and Stories of the Tennessee Valley, 1.Witt, Elaine. 1993. "Mrs. Wilson guilty, gets life in prison." Birmingham Post-Herald, March 4: 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid right now. Currently. Currently, right now. We're here. Brought to you kind of live, but not at all. Yeah, not at all. No, it's not. Not even a little bit. This is very pre-recorded. Sike. It's edited. Gotcha. But yeah, hey, what's going on? Everybody's not sick anymore. So, hello. Hey. And guess what? It never happened for me. It didn't, it didn't really happen for me either. You hear that knock thumbs me. That's me. That little on the wood. Yeah, no, I got a scratchy throat for a few days and that was it. I had like, like a, my throat never even got like scratchy. It was just like, am I going to get scratchy? Like, you know what I mean? It was like, mine was hanging on the precipice of being a sore throat, but it never was. So, that would be a great book, the precipice of a sore throat. The, the, there's a book I want to write.

There you go. The precipice of a sore throat. I don't know what it's going to be about. A really good short story. Yeah, there you go. At JP. At JP. At JP. My precepts. brother. My uncle. Confused people more. Yay. But I think there's, I mean, everybody is clearly still very focused on what's going on with the Gabby Petito investigation. Not a ton of like concrete stuff has happened.

There's a lot of craziness going on. Brian Enton, our boy is camped. Coming at us a lot. You know who is coming out of us live? Not us. Brian Enton stayed. He's live. Yeah, he's staying live.

In fact, he's going to be going live soon, I think, he just announced. But the only thing that we do know is that, you know, some other people have involved themselves in the investigation. And law enforcement, there was a lot of people posting, you know, they have apps that, and I think actually, speaking of JP, I think he has an app that shows, like, what kind of aircraft are going over at any given moment? Like what, like, like flying, what is that fucking called? Like Delta and, like Spirit, what are those called?

Airlines? Yeah, airlines. What fucking airline it is. I was like, are we talking about air? No, I knew the word. I just couldn't think of it in the moment. Yeah, it just, it says whether it's a private airline, whether it's, you know, a private owner of the aircraft, whether it's a law enforcement or newscraft or a medical, you know, helicopter or whatever. It tells you what the fuck is up. What the fuck's up in the air? Literally, what the fuck is up. Actually. And so a lot of people were seeing a lot of activity over Fort DeSoto, I believe it is. I don't live in Florida. So I don't live in Florida. So I don't. know if that's how you say it. I don't even know if that's a real place. I think it is. Brian

Enton told me. Brian Enton says it's a real place. So it is. Yeah. So I think it's at the very tip of Florida. And a lot of people were seeing a ton of activity by a sheriff's helicopter. They seem to be circling last night. So that's a thing that people are posting screenshots of their app for. It's interesting to say the least. There has been a lot of talk about possible activity there. Maybe Brian Laundrie's parents were camping there. Maybe with Brian Laundrie's during this whole time period. Maybe they didn't come out without him. I don't know.

You know who's there, though? Brian Enton. Yes. Brian Enton is there. He's going to be going live, so we'll let you know if we find anything else out. Also, follow Brian Enton. Honestly, here we are officially Brian Enton's PR people, and I would like you to follow him. We are marketing for him.

He's like, who are these women? Yeah, he's like, please stop. But whatever. But that's all we have concrete right now. No one has confirmed to see him. no one has anything else other than that. So everything else is just kind of hearsay. Maybe some of it's true.

Maybe it's not, but we're not going to share the stuff that's just like floating around the internet. But that's all we got. That's real. Exactly. The whole shitty thing. I'm like the whole, the whole, the whole shitty thing about this is that he's a survivalist. So he could be anywhere in like any kind of woods or. Oh, it's totally feasible.

Like he could be, and he had like we've said, this is a campground. It's like he could be fucking anywhere. And where this Fort De Soto places is, it's a campground. So hopefully. So he has also been there with his parents before, according to some sources. So it's very feasible that he could absolutely be out there. And I think there's like islands around that area too. I saw the overhead footage.

It's interesting. It's interesting to say the least. So I mean, let's all cross our fingers that they find this douche canoe a la. True Crime Garage that that insult came from. So thank you for that. My dad says that. My dad says douche canoe and he says asshat. I love ass hat. That's a great. Yeah, that's a good one. All of the above is what he is really. Let's hope they find a man. I just want them to, I want to see him in cuffs. Footage of him getting carried away in a law enforcement vehicle. And then I want to see his parents as well. So yeah, so that's where we are. So we obviously are

invested in this case, it's just one that really struck us. We feel like, you know, Gabby is one of our own. So we just, you know, we want to see justice for her and her family. But yeah, and I think the Gabby Petito Foundation, the link is still active. So if you can and are able to donate to that, but we'll update you whenever we know more. Yeah. And in the meantime, I have a wild case for you that was actually, so I started doing this. And then I was like, I wonder if anybody suggested this and I popped in our email and it was like super highly requested. Really? Yeah. I'm excited to hear this. So this is the case of Ellen Greenberg. It sounds familiar. I think once I start kind of getting into it because I think you'll recognize it maybe because I kind of started to recognize it.

And I could never pinpoint if I had like seen anything about it before. Or if it's just like in passing. Yeah, exactly. So let's get into it. Ellen Greenberg was her parents Sandy and Joshua Greenberg's only child. And Sandy and Joshua Greenberg, like, I would love for them to be my parents because they just seem like the most wholesome people. They clearly love their daughter with like every fiber of their being. And they're just, just rip my heart out. They're just the best people. Oh. Now, because the fact like that she was their only child, they were a super close family. Her mother said that Ellen was a warm, joyful girl who loved to cook, loved fashion. Her father said that she was a daddy's girl and she would go out to different sporting events with him. And her friend said that she lit up a

room. She had an infectious smile. And she was that girl that you could call if you needed someone. Oh, I know. So she was, I'm already like, man. She was clearly like an amazing person. And specifically the part about the infectious smile when we post the photo of Ellen on our Instagram, she has the most beautiful smile. Oh, I'm going to look it up right now. Beautiful teeth, just like warm eyes. Just like I would, If I saw her, I'd be like, I want to be her friend. Like, her smile reaches her eyes. It does. Because, you know, sometimes she's like, she smises and smiles.

She just reaches the eyes. You know it's genuine when it's in the eyes as well. Exactly. Ellen went to Penn State and she graduated with a degree in communications. And at that time, she thought that she wanted to be a speech pathologist, but, which is like a really cool job. And it takes a lot to get, like, into doing that. But then she ended up deciding that she actually didn't really want to do that.

And what she really wanted to do was become a teacher. Okay. No one was surprised by that at all because Ellen had always loved kids. She was super good around kids. Like everyone was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Oh my God. Her smile, by the way. She was a gorgeous smile. It literally just like blinded me. I was like, oh my God. Yeah, she's beautiful. So genuine. And just seems like you would want to be her friend. Yeah, you're just like, let's hang. Like you want to get like dinner? Like let's just be friends. Let's watch something together. Let's go to TGI Friday. And like talk about life. You know, but to make her dream or reality. But to make her dream or reality. of becoming a teacher. She went back to school at Temple University and she got her teaching degree. When she was finished with that, she started working as a first grade teacher and everyone said that job was made for her. And who again I say, special kind of person that can be a teacher. All you teachers out there, high fives. High five to all of you. High tens. High everything. Because damn. Seriously. Like kids are a lot and especially younger kids. That age is tough. That's a super tough age. Even just doing homework with my kindergartners, I'm like, oh, your teachers are special.

I can attest to that. Because sometimes I help and then sometimes I got to check out. Tough time. So teachers, A-5. So Ellen, A-plus. Yeah, seriously. Ellen also had a boyfriend named Sam Goldberg. They had met through a mutual friend in 2008. And that friend thought they would be great for each other. So she was like, you got to go on a blind date. They did. They super duper hit it off. Like, definitely had a great time and continued dating for about. three years. About three years into the relationship, they did, like, a couple's trip to California, just the two of them. And Sam ended up popping the question on a beach. And Ellen said, yes. There's like this really, like, super cute picture of her on the beach, like flashing her ring,

probably right after it happened. She felt like all very wholesome. Yeah, I was going to say, this is really just setting me up to be like, man. Yeah. Now they set the date and planned to marry in August of 2011. So with all the wedding planning and the stressful job of being a teacher, especially like we were just saying to younger kids, Ellen was talking to some of the people she was closest to, specifically about her anxiety. She was telling her friends and family that she was just feeling overwhelmed, especially at school, and she was having like some trouble sleeping. No one was like overly concerned about her mental health in the regard that they thought she was going to harm herself, but people were concerned enough to encourage her to reach out for some help. So

Ellen agreed she was like yeah I think that's a good idea and she started seeing a psychiatrist she only went to see that psychiatrist who was named Ellen Berman about three times and she was prescribed clonapin and Ambien she had previously been prescribed Zoloft that didn't end up working out and then she switched to these two and those were the only medicines that she was on okay now both of those drugs do have side effects including suicidal thoughts but Dr. Berman had made a note in Ellen's file that she didn't find her to be suicidal, like literally right in the file there said not suicidal. Yeah. And I would assume that before prescribing things that could possibly like dredge up those thoughts that you, you know, you're evaluated. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And there was like a couple like different notes in her file and she clearly had been evaluated. And everyone agreed that Ellen was stressed, but they kind of all, they all said like in a way it was good stress. Like it was about her job and it was about her wedding. It wasn't about anything like earth-shattering. Yeah, well, it's like stress for like things that are moving you forward. Like day-to-day things. Yeah, exactly. Now, one thing that Ellen's father did notice and find concerning was that all of a sudden she was having a hard time making decisions. And a lot of times she would like go to her fiance, Sam, or say, oh, I'll have to check in with Sam and see what Sam thinks. Like, oh, I don't know. Let me talk to Sam. And he was just like, that wasn't really like her.

And then when she started getting this kind of anxiety coming on, that became more prominent. She was kind of defaulting. Defaulting, definitely, to Sam. Now, interestingly enough, when Ellen was really going through it with her anxiety, I believe it was before she had gone to her psychiatrist, she actually reached out to her parents about moving back home. She was living with Sam in Philadelphia, and her parents lived about two hours away in Harrisburg.

And they were pretty shocked by this. They were like a little bit concerned because they were, like, a little bit concerned because they thought her relationship seemed to be like a loving, caring one. And they said of Sam that he was a fine young man. And she was like, no, it doesn't have anything to do with Sam. I'm just overwhelmed. And like, I think I need to get away. Okay. And you know, going back home is like a good. Yeah, it's like a reset button. Exactly. Most of the time. Exactly. So that was kind of when they pushed her and especially her dad was like, you should go see a psychiatrist. Like you need to get some help. Yeah, just to kind of like bring everything into perspective. Yeah. And she had been texting, like friends and she had texted her mom after she went on Clonopin and Ambien and said that the clonopin and the Ambien itself were helping. Like she was feeling better. So on January 26, 2011, it was already a snowy day and a blizzard was right around the corner. That morning, Ellen went to work at school, but that day the school was having an early release because of all the snow. So she finished up at school and she was heading back to the apartment. She filled up her gas

tank on the way home, which you should always do during a snowstorm, my friends. You should. You got to have that gas. Your gas line's going to freeze. Just ask my dad. I literally wrote, just ask papa. There you go. So she did that. And then it seemed like she went back home and got into some wedding planning.

Not too long before this day, she had sent out the save the dates for her and Sam's wedding. But there was still a lot of work to do. I haven't gotten married. I don't know all that goes into it. But I'm sure you can attest to the endless amount of work. A lot of work. I remember watching you do all the work. And I was like, ooh, you need help?

And you were like, no, I have it. And I was like, no, control freak. No, I'm the Capricorn. I don't need help. I don't need any help with anything. Still that way. Yeah, right? Ellen was doing the work and figuring out the wedding.

And during this time, she was, like, texting with her friends. She had talked to her mom on the phone. Sounded like a pretty typical, like, snowy afternoon. Nothing out of the ordinary. Sounds great, to be honest. Yeah, sitting there doing some wedding stuff, talking to friends and family. Snowing outside. Yeah.

And at some point, Sam had come home and headed out to the, gym, which was like in their apartment complex. Oh, okay. In the property. Unfortunately, later that day, 27-year-old Alan Greenberg was found dead on her kitchen floor. Her fiancé Sam was the one who discovered her body when he was finally able to gain entry to the apartment. So like I said, earlier that evening, Sam had gone to the gym, but when he came back home,

the apartment door was locked. Now, he had a lock for like the lock on the doorknob, but the apartment, had the extra security feature that like a lot of hotels have, that kind of like swing bar, I think it's called. It was on the top of the door. It's like got that little ball that stops the door from opening. So that bar was locked and Sam couldn't get in because there's no way to unlock that from the outside or is there. Anyways. Oh. He texted Ellen and he started like yelling into the apartment for her, which neighbors did confirm hearing. But he wasn't getting any answer and he was starting to get like more and more irritated. So he first texted her and said,

And then he texted, open the door. Then what are you doing? Then I'm getting pissed. Then hello. Then you better have an excuse. Then what the fuck? Then, ah, then you have no idea. So the last one.

You have no idea? Right. So the last one to me was super weird because you can look at that in like a couple ways. I think the first being like you have no idea what's going to happen when I come through this door because I'm super pissed off right now. Yeah. Or maybe like, you have no idea how pissed off I am. You have no idea how pissed off I am. Or like you have no idea that I'm even locked out. Like, oh, fuck, you have no idea. Like, oh, that was, see, that one rings pretty.

Yeah. After all of that, like going over and over like, what the fuck, come on. And then kind of realizing it. And then being like, you have no idea. Yeah. Like maybe she was like taking a nap or like in the shower. Because I can definitely tell you like I've gotten locked out of my apartment before, like haven't brought my fob down. and like been texting Drew and he hasn't seen it and vice versa. And we've been like, you don't even know that I'm down here. Like please look at your fucking phone. So you could look at that either way. 100%.

Now, after texting her a bunch and yelling into the apartment, Sam went to find a security guard thinking that maybe they could help him get in the apartment. Like maybe they had some kind of tool to open that lock. Yeah. But he was told like they didn't have any kind of tool like that and they couldn't do that. Now, the security guard later said that for someone who had been at the gym, he didn't look like it. He was not in gym attire, and he was wearing boots.

But on the same hand, maybe he changed before going back to the house, and it was snowing. I was going to say, boots on. It's snowing. Right. So that's not, like, super weird, but they did want to point it out. Okay. And the other thing was he didn't have far to go, though, like on the other hand. So, like, why would he change if he was just going home?

But it's snowing. Yeah. You can really see both sides of that. You can. But the guard also mentioned that Sam made it a point multiple times to say that he had been at the gym. So could be weird. Maybe he was just fucking panicked because he couldn't get at his house. Yeah, this is like truly one of those things where you're like, I can 100% argue both sides of this.

Exactly. I've been doing a lot of those cases. You have. You're stressing me out because I'm like, I have no idea. Maybe I'm doing it on purpose. I don't feel like you are. I'm not. But finally, Sam made his way back to the apartment without the security guard.

He later told police that he had the. the guard with him at this point because according to him he was able to break the lock with force the security guard later told the police that he never left his post huh so that was like weird that one's a weird one's a weird one's weird i don't know how to argue another side of that nor do i but maybe you do listener um so he was able to finally get in the apartment and once he got in that's obviously when he saw ellen she was sitting in an upright position slouched over in front of the lower kitchen cabinets. Sam's initial response was not to call 911. He actually made two phone calls first. One was allegedly to his uncle, who happened to be pretty well connected in the judicial system.

And like, you know, and then the other was his parents. So they were already on the way there when Sam called the police at 6.33 p.m. It had been an hour since he started trying to get into the apartment. Wow. So the 911 operator told Sam that he, he, should perform CPR until the EMTs and the ambulance got there and that they would walk him through it over the phone. Okay. His response to that was, do I have to?

Can't. Okay. Like, I guess you would see. I mean, she's probably like covered in blood at this point. He's probably freaked out and is assuming in his head that she's dead, but I don't know. It's a weird thing to say. I'm just going strictly off of me. And what you would do if you saw John would react in this.

If that was John, I would be doing everything I could to revive him. And I would, it would not deter me whatsoever. No. And that's me too. It's true. Me. Right. And again.

I'm not going to say everybody listening or everybody around the world would do the same thing. And we've never been in that situation. So sometimes your brain does weird shit. Yeah. Still. Strange to me. I'm just going to, I'm going to say to, I'm going to say it from my point of view, that's strange. Exactly.

But it doesn't necessarily mean me guilty. I'm just saying it's strange. Right. I'm just saying. I'm just saying it's strange. Now, it was when he got closer to Ellen's body and he was still on the phone with the operator, he realized that there was still a knife stabbed into her chest and it had been left there. My God. Yes.

When he told the operator, they told him not to do CPR. Like, at that point, I think it would have interfered with something. Well, you'd never want to pull the knife out. Right. So Sam's father was the one to call Ellen's parents and told them that something terrible had happened to Ellie, which I was like, ruin me. When her mother Sandy heard what had happened, she said, all I know is my world went dark and I have no daughter.

And then also to add on to that, they were two hours away from Ellen's apartment and they were snowed in because of the blizzard. Oh my God. So this is just your worst nightmare as a parent. That's horrible. Like snowed in, you can't do anything. And at this point, they don't even know exactly what's happened. Oh, that's terrible. So I can like feel.

the helplessness there. Oh yeah, it's horrible. So in total, Ellen had been stabbed approximately 20 times. What? The stab wounds were in her chest, stomach, neck, and head. Oh, yes. And most, so she had been stabbed 10 times between the neck and the head alone. And a lot of them were in the back of her neck and head. Oh my God. Two of the wounds went directly into her brain. On the right side of the of her body, the medical team found 11 bruises in, quote, various stages of resolution. Specifically on her abdomen, arm, and leg. They said the bruises could have come from some kind of physical activity, like a sport, like a contact sport, from her maybe bumping into things, or could have come from a closed fist. They said it could have been any of those things.

Man. Yeah. But the various forms of like resolution was weird to me. And Ellen didn't play any kind of sport where she would have gotten bruised. If she played contact sports. And the areas where they were, like bumping into that many things, I don't know. And just the fact that they were all in different healing stages said a lot to me. Yeah. I'll leave it at that. They also made note that there were no defensive wounds suffered, and that would later

become a huge point in this case. Huh. Ellen was pronounced dead on the scene at 6.40 p.m. Oh, man. There was no suicide note left at the scene. But almost immediately, the investigators on scene looked at this death like a suicide. I'm sorry, what? She was stabbed in the back of her neck and head.

20 times overall, 10 of those being to her neck and head. One that went literally through her skull into her brain. Like literally into her brain. Okay. Yep. So it was... That's interesting. Oh, this is going to be even...

You're going to be infuriated by the end of this. And actually a lot of people that wrote in requesting this were like, I need to hear Elena's expertise when we get to the autopsy report, which I found. So we'll talk about it. Oh, man. But before we get there, it was even written in the report before any autopsy was completed or a medical examiner even laid a finger on her that they thought this was suicide. No. That's not even allowed. No.

That's not your job. The body speaks for you. That person speaks for it. Like, you don't know. You don't just assume because it makes an house out of you and me and everybody in Philadelphia. Especially when there's no suicide note. There's no clear indication. It's like, no. What? No. So the main reasons that they thought this was a suicide was because the fact that there was no forced entry into the house and the door had been locked on from the inside. Like remember the hotel bar lock. Yeah. Ellen and Sam's apartment was on the sixth floor, so it would have been really hard for someone to gain entry through their back balcony. And just to be sure, they checked the snow for Prince and they didn't find any. Okay. Again, no defensive wounds on the body, so that was another reason they looked at it like this. They checked. I mean, I have thoughts, but I'm not going to say. They checked the security cameras from the apartment's lobby, and there were no suspicious people in or out of the apartment that didn't live there. Unfortunately, though, there weren't cameras in the hallway leading to Ellen's apartment. So they couldn't look at that. But one of the main things that was even later mentioned on the autopsy was Ellen's history of anxiety. Okay. Anxiety.

Not like anything else. The investigators believed that because she was on the medicine, she was at the time of her death. And by the way, those were the only drugs found in her system. Nothing else was found. But they believed that because she was on those two drugs when she died, that those are the two things that could have caused the suicide. suicide. Literally nothing about this rings as a suicide to me. Literally 20 times she was stabbed. And in the head and neck, the back of the head and the back of the neck.

Yeah. So Sam's story about being at the gym did line up. They were able to check his keyfob records, and they confirmed where and how many times he had used that key fob and everything was like he said. Okay. He was interviewed by the police. They said that he was cooperative and he was let go. then later down the line he didn't really like talk about it and he got an attorney. Okay. But which is which that's your right and that's a smart thing to do. I was just going to say it is very recommended in that situation.

And the fact that he talked first. Yeah, he talked first. So Ellen's two medications were then taken in as evidence, which is really bizarre to me. Weird as fuck to me. Now on the contrary, looking at suicide among females, stabbing oneself to death is extremely rare. especially amongst females. Absolutely. Generally, when women commit suicide, they don't choose a violent way.

They'll use drugs or like carbon monoxide or something like that. It's like on the other side of the coin, women tend to be poisoners. Yes, like when they're killing. Yep. Now, the other thing is, and this is among men and women, when someone does stab themselves, it's more likely that they lift up their clothes. Ellen's stab wounds went through her shirt. and I actually didn't know that before.

I was going to say that's interesting. Yeah. There was also a half-made bowl of fruit salad on the counter, and it looked like whoever was making it was in the middle of preparing it. The other thing was, like, just to look on the things that she had to look forward to, number one, the wedding, obviously. She had just sent out her save the dates. It just filled her tank of gas.

Just filled her tank of gas. Yep, that's actually why I mentioned that. Sam's birthday was coming up, and she had already made reservations at a restaurant. and talked to a friend about what gift she wanted to get him. Her mother, Sandy, had been visiting her two weeks before and said everything was status quo other than the fact that Ellen was like feeling stressed about the wedding and her work. And on top of all of that, like I said in the beginning, her psychiatrist had written on her file that they did not believe her to be suicidal. Dr. Berman had asked Ellen about her relationship and any abuse and Ellen said nothing like that was

going on. That's like a question they have to ask. Of course. And the doctor even noted that she smiled when she talked about Sam. And, you know, and it's like, and of course all of this is not to say that somebody can be planning things and be doing things that seem like they are moving forward and planning on future events and still have like a moment of, of, you know. I can't go on. Yeah. Of course, that's not to say it. I just feel like this, this seems like. Well, the manner in which this happened. Well, that's, it's, and who she was. Everything here is lining up neatly with suicide. And just that snap decision, like the middle of making a fruit salad.

It's, I don't, like, what happened? It just, it doesn't make any sense to me. This is like wild. It is, and it only gets more wild. Please just wait. So let's get into the autopsy, ma'am. Yes, please. An autopsy was completed the next day on January 27th, 2011 by the assistant medical examiner.

they concluded that the manner of death was homicide. Yeah, I'm not shocked. Yes, they noted, and this is directly from the autopsy, multiple stab wounds to the chest, abdomen, and back of the neck. A knife with a 12.5 centimeter blade is present in one of the chest wounds at a depth of 10 centimeters, which translates into four inches. Yeah. Yeah.

There is an in-sized wound to the right occipital scalp. So there was like a slash, like a, to the right occipital slope. Now, so at that point, the police were to go back to the scene and re-investigate this as a homicide. Yet two days later, they came back and told reporters that they were still leaning towards suicide. What? It does not ever happen that the police publicly speak out about a medical examiner's findings. That literally, like, annoys me.

Like, I'm annoyed right now. Yeah, everyone was. Like those, the medical examiner, the assistant medical examiner did a fucking autopsy. Did an entire autopsy like that they clearly are trained to do on something that pretty readily looks like a homicide from the outside. The knife was inserted into her chest and obviously was the last blow after all of those stab wounds. And again, it was approximately 20. And that was the final one inserted four inches into her chest after stabbing herself that many times. The force it would take.

And we will get it. into that. And you got to remember, I think people forget, you have a fucking chest plate. You have a chest plate. It's not easy. Trust me. It's not easy to get through that chest plate with your own force. Right. And to, in that angle, like I'm making the motion right now, the angle it would take would leave you with very little leverage to get through that chest plate. Yep. That far in. Yep. And you'd probably immediately puncture your lung, which is going to fuck with your ability to do really anything else at that point. Right.

Your strength is going to be depleted completely. And her lungs were punctured. Yeah, that doesn't. If you want to, you can pull up the autopsy while I'm talking. Yeah, I think I'm going to because this is like really shocking to me. Like, yeah, really shocking. It's bananas. So the police were still focusing on Ellen's history of anxiety.

And they were also able to determine that only, that the only DNA on the knife was Ellen's own DNA. Okay. Which also, but it's her kitchen. I was just going to say that's, that kind of makes sense. Yeah. Because if somebody was wearing a glove. Correct. Which like many people do when they commit heinous crimes.

Exactly. Now eventually one of the detectives on the case, I believe his name was John McNamey. He came up with the idea to hire a neuropathologist who could test a piece of Ellen's spinal cord to see if it had been severed or not. Huh. If it hadn't been, then she still could have inflicted the wounds to the rest of her body. For sure. Right. So the help of Dr. Lucy Roke, I believe is how you say it, she was a neuropathologist, a well-respected

one at that. Her help was enlisted. She came to the conclusion after examining that the spinal cord was not severed, but it was punctured. Oh, okay. So in her opinion, Ellen would have gone numb and been able to inflict the rest of the stab wounds. I was going to say because if, like, that's like, From what I'm seeing in the autopsy report, it's like the cervical spinal cord was. C2 and C3 and C5. Or is it C, C, I think it was C3 and C5. I think you're right. C2 and C3.

Oh, okay. Fuck. Those are generally the most severe if you get a spinal cord injury in the cervical vertebrae. Okay. They're the ones that often results in like paraplegia. Right. Any kind of paralysis of anything. And that makes sense because they're the closest to your brain.

They're the closest to your brain. And they can also. flank, like there's the whole like C5 stay alive. Anything below the C5 is going to keep you alive. Anything above it has a tendency to be more severe because it can affect the nerves that like flank your lungs and flank your diaphragm and control your breathing and it can get like really hairy from there. So if those were punctured, then there's like a possibility she would be numb and at least feel some kind of paralysis. Because I don't know if like any nerves were. severed near there? I don't think it says it. It wasn't listed in the autopsy if any nerves were severed.

It is an interesting note that it's punctured and not severed. But it's for, I mean, I don't have the education that you do in this field, but would it be crazy to say that like, that's, that would be like very unheard of that she could then stab herself that many times after having her part of her spinal cord be punctured? That's the thing to me. It's like spinal cord injuries in general are just very severe and tough to work through right away. And it's like, of course, is it an impossibility? No, but it's, is it improbable? Yes. Yeah. And also, it's going to cause numbness. It's going to cause some sensation issues in your arms as well, like anything below that. So it's like your arms are going to be affected by it. Right. And also, that's just like really deep to stab someone is to be able to sever or to

puncture the spinal cord, you're going hard and deep. Right. And so to your, your back of your neck. Well, that's, think of that angle, yielding a knife and yeah. That just seems that to me, that seems bananas. To me, it makes absolutely no sense that she did this to herself. Yeah. But I don't, that it's just, it's wild to me to believe that she did this to herself. It really is. I agree. And I think the medical examiners agree. So. Yeah. it seems well at first you should say that they they at least put it as a homicide so yes so they and that's the thing seeing that like you would have seen that and been like oh fuck homicide i'm sure yeah it makes sense yeah three months after the medical examiner had originally listed ellen's

death as a homicide they changed that manner of death to suicide just saw that on there three months after a note about lucy rourke's findings was added to the autopsy report I believe it's on page three or four if my photographic memory serves me well. Now, Allen's family does not and really has no reason to believe that she committed suicide. So they made it their fucking mission to find out what happened here. They were able to get the autopsy report. That's why we have access to it. And they were able to get crime scene photos.

So they hired former Attorney General Walter Cohen as their lawyer. And they also hired Detective Tom Brennan, who has worked on over 800 homicides. side cases. Yeah, I knew that name. I was going to say. And also worked as chief of the Dolphin County detectives. And they hired both of those people to work on the case. Now, one of the first people they talked to when they decided to take Ellen's case into their own hands was Dr. Cyril H. Wecht. Hey, yo. One of the most famous pathologists of all time. That's right. We've mentioned him on the Jonbonnet Ramsey episodes and the Smiley Face Killer episodes and probably way more than that. Uh, Sarah. Serrell. And now in Dr. We

opinion, Ellen's death is, quote, strongly suspicious of a homicide. Yeah, I'm with Sarah. He also said, I don't understand how they wrote this off as a suicide. Thank you, Sarah. I'm with you. Yeah. He specifically noted the wounds to the back of her neck. Yes, that's literally what I'm looking at right now. And I'm like, I don't understand you guys. No. Now, that was in 2012. In 2017, the family spoke with another pathologist, Dr. Wayne K. K. Ross. And he was, and he was a, Dr. Ross focused in on the stab wound that penetrated Ellen's brain and said, an injury like that would lead Ellen to have severe pain, cranial nerve dysfunction, and traumatic brain signs.

Yes. As well as numbness, tingling, and irregular heartbeat. Exactly. Now, we've talked about how doctors in this field, especially this field, tend to be cautious about going against the findings of a fellow doctor. This statement almost went completely against the one that Dr. Lucy Rourke made. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, while we're on the topic of spinal cords and Dr. Lucy Rourke, it turns out that there was another piece of Ellen's spinal cord that was still at the medical examiner's office. Just hanging. Just hanging. And this was like years later that they found it. Former homicide prosecutor, Guy DeAndrea, had a ton of questions about this case. And while searching for the answers, he was the one to find that remaining piece of spinal cord. I believe this was around six years after Ellen had been killed, let's say. And there was no consent for them to keep that piece of spinal cord? That I do not know the answer to. Because that is something that can happen if consent is given. I'm not sure. To take a piece of a spinal cord and keep it. One of the things that Ellen's parents said was that they didn't really get spoken to a lot by anybody in the process.

That's very interesting. But I don't know if they gave consent or not. So I'm not going to speak to that. But I said that like so like I'm not going to speak to that. I will not speak to that. Now Tom Brennan was able to get the other pathology. neuropathologist, Dr. Wayne K. Ross, to take a look at that piece of spinal cord. And after the piece was examined, it was determined that it had not only been pierced,

but severed. I was wondering that. So, if that would turn out to be true. Oh, so then, the family tried to refute the original neuropathology report made by Dr. Lucy Roke. And at that point, they were told no one could find it. No one could find it. No one could find her report.

and when they did get into contact with her, they were told she had no bill for that examination. And she also wrote to them, quote, I would conclude that I did not see the specimen in question, although there is a remote possibility that it was shown to me. So she's basically like, yeah, I don't know, maybe. Perhaps. And she also wrote, possibly.

However, I have no recollection, recollection of such a case. You don't remember that case? You got to do some brain games if you don't. don't remember that case. Also, your name is in the autopsy report. Sure is. So they should probably take that the fuck out if you don't remember doing it. Yeah, you spoke on it. Like, what do you don't remember it? She basically said, maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Like, that's essentially what that translates into. Wow. I would conclude that I did not see the specimen in question, although there is a remote possibility that it was shown to me. Okay. Okay. Weird. Okay.

Now, another question that not only Guy DeAndria had, but Tom Brennan as well, was about the blood flow that they saw in the crime scene photos. Ellen was sitting upright against the cabinets in the photo that they both described seeing. And they both described the same line of blood that went from the bottom of her nostril to the back of her ear horizontally. Hmm. Yeah. DeAndria points out that that suggests a way of sitting. That that defies gravity. Certainly does.

There's no way that your blood flow. horizontally because of gravity your blood flows down sure does so had she been in that position when she was bleeding it would have gone down to her mouth right now in addition to that both he and tom Brennan were surprised at the lack of blood at the scene all of the areas where the stab wounds were inflicted especially the head are areas that bleed a shit ton like there's so many like arteries as obviously as you know your neck your neck like what in But from what I saw, there was a stab wound to the aortic arch. There was.

Like, that's a big blood flow. Yep. But they said, no, there wasn't a lot of blood at the seam. And Tom Brennan also noted that there was a towel near Ellen's left hand that literally had no blood on it. None, not a drop in the photo. Hmm. Weird. How would that be possible?

No, it's definitely weird. Both of them agree. DeAndrea and Brennan agree that the crime scene was staged. Now, in addition to... that. One of the detectives, Scott Eelman, I believe is how you say it, he reviewed the scene later. He said there was a trail of blood that would have been consistent with the body being moved in the photos. How is no, like what? I have no idea. How is this happening so late that everyone's like, oh, look at all this evidence? Because in the beginning, because they didn't

look at it. Because they didn't treat it as a crime scene. Immediately they walked in there and were like, suicide. That's seriously wild to me. Nothing was really taken into custody other than her medication, which she had for anxiety purposes. I cannot. Now, Henry Lee, he actually worked, or excuse me, testified for the defense during the OJ trial. He looked at the crime scene photos showing where Ellen had been found and said, quote, The number and types of wounds and bloodstain patterns observed are consistent with a homicide scene. Yeah.

D. No luminal testing was done to see if there was any blood that could have been cleaned up. So this scene could have been fucking scoured. Oh, for sure. it could have. And I didn't like know anything about like the time of death or anything like that because she was just pronounced dead on scene. So it's really interesting to me that everyone else who's looking at this that's not on this police force is like, yeah, this is a homicide, but they literally walked into a woman who had been stabbed 20 times and they were like, oh, suicide. And it's like, yeah, and I just can't get past the stabbing in the back of the head and the neck. It just doesn't. It just doesn't make any sense. And especially like you were saying the, the, final stab wound to the chest that the knife was inserted four inches into her chest. Yeah, that's wild. Right.

That's really wild to me. Now, Tom Brennan and like everybody else in the world probably believes that Ellen Green was murdered in what he calls a blitz attack, meaning that someone came up behind her and incapacitated her almost immediately, which would make sense when you see that her spinal cord was severed. Immediately she would have got numb, tingly, and would be consistent with the last. lack of defense wounds. Yep, because she wouldn't have been able to fight back. So they were sitting there a ton of bruises on one side of her body. Boom. Boom. They're sitting there saying that she committed suicide because there's no defense wounds. Her spinal cord was severed. That's why there's no defense wounds

because she didn't have any time to fight back. And again, any spinal cord injury is going to incapacitate you in some way. It doesn't mean you are paralyzed, but it means you're going to be like fucked up. Like it's not going to be an easy you can just fight back as hard as possible. Like it's going to mess you up a little bit. Exactly. And not only that, she was also punctured in the brain twice. Yeah, exactly. And it's like that can cause like seizure activity. All of that together, hemorrhaging in the brain. Like, oh, this is just like. And then the other thing is, remember the half made fruit salad on the counter? Yeah. He was like, yeah, she could have been preparing the food when somebody attacked her from behind her. And that's exactly what that scene says to you.

Yeah, it sure does. And the neuropathologists that he worked with, Dr. Ross, also found evidence of scratch marks and fingernail marks near her throat as well as a hemorrhage near her throat that would have been indicative of manual strangulation. This is like very infuriating. Yeah. This is infuriating. It's, I felt like I was a crazy person.

To me, someone got away with murder here. No, like some, not even to, like somebody got away with murder. Very clearly. Yeah. Now let's talk about the locked door, because that is. interesting. Like, how did somebody get in? In the beginning, I was like, honey, they can. Yeah. So Sam said that he had been able to break into the apartment basically just by using force. Brennan reviewed the photos from the scene and saw that the lock was still intact except for one

screw. So basically, he bumped out one screw and was able to get in. He believed that if Sam had really used force to open the door, the entire lock would have come off the out of the door. Who knows? Yeah, I was going to say, I can't speak to that because I have no idea. But one of the reasons why the death is listed as a suicide was the fact that the door was locked from the inside. So they were like, no one could have gotten in and killed Ellen and slipped out back into the hall. Well, both DeAndrea and Brennan pointed out that you can just YouTube how to open that kind of swing back lock from the outside, and there's plenty of ways to do it. I watched three videos on it. In one video, they tied a string to like the top and bottom of the lock, and then you

can pull the ends outside of the string, and it unlocks the door perfectly. It pulls the string back so that the ball hinge doesn't get in the way and you can open the door easily. Huh. There was another way where they used a rubber band and they did like a similar kind of thing where they tied it around the top and the bottom. And then they stuck the rest of the rubber band to the wall with duct tape and then pulled the door and could do it easily. And then I found another video where they literally just used a do not disturb sign and like pressed it up against the wall and like kind of closed the door, kept pressing. and eventually they got into the hotel room. So they're like really not a secure lock.

When if you have one of those, like maybe now think about getting a different one. Because the amount of videos, I only watched three on YouTube and I'll link them. The amount of videos on how to open one of these locks from the outside is terrifying. Yeah. So it's not impossible. But I don't know if we should link them to give people and that's like. Yeah, maybe we want to look at them. Maybe if you want to look at that, like go ahead.

Go ahead and find it. But like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if somebody left the apartment, how would they put that lock back on? You could still use the string mechanism to do the same thing and to lock it back? Yeah, to lock it back. But then I guess the question would be. Because that's my question is like, how do you lock it from the outside? But was, was it ever locked from the outside?

We don't know because he broke down the door. That's the thing. We're just going off of Sam. Yeah. So actually, I don't know. Because realistically, if you did, the string would be left there. That's true. but was that ever really locked?

I don't know. That's true. Who knows? I don't know. Not me. Now, Ellen's parents filed a request to see if they could get access to her file. That request was denied. What?

The police commissioner's office did allow them to go in and review the paperwork in her file. Their child. So they were allowed to go in and review the file. But the downside to that was that it had to be just them and they couldn't make copies of anything or call their lawyers while they were there. to help explain anything noted. So essentially it was a huge waste of their time. Because if they can't understand something, it's like...

Well, and like you... Even reading that autopsy was difficult for me. That's like a different language. Oh, of course. It's a totally different language. So you're just going in there being like, I hope I get this? Yeah. So they went in and they were like, we didn't know what anything meant.

Why would we? Of course not. Which was incredibly frustrating. They have tried to have Ellen's case reopened, especially after they've gone to these multiple experts and were told, yeah, most of this evidence is indicative of homicide, but their requests have been denied time and time again. The attorney general released a statement saying that the investigation they had done was a thorough one and to further cement that this was a case of suicide, they referenced Ellen's laptop

and said that there were searches for the terms including suicide methods, painless suicide, and quick suicide methods. Now, they said that the report was made by the regional computer forensics laboratory and given to the police on April 1st, 2011. However, and you will see it in the autopsy, the family had been told originally that no such terms were found on Ellen's laptop, and there was no note of that in the report. And you can see right in front of you, the autopsy says analysis of the, what do you say? The dissent's laptop? Decedents. The decedent's laptop provided no additional information. Says that right there. And it's like that would have been, in bold letters right there. It literally says that autopsy report. Yeah, that, no.

So when they were questioned about this, the attorney general said that his office wasn't the one to find it. So, quote, we cannot say if anyone, police or prosecutor ever looked at it. What's happening? Yeah. So, on over there. On October 15th, 2019, Ellen's parents filed a civil lawsuit against the medical examiner Marlon Osborne and the Philadelphia County Medical Examiners Office with the ultimate goal of having suicide removed from their daughter's cause of death. As they should. And replaced with at least undetermined or homicide. I was just going to say it at the very least undetermined. And they said, like, they said that. They were like, if you want to put undetermined, go off. But we do not certainly want our daughters like cause of death going down as suicide when that's not, clearly not what happened. Yeah, that's just like false. Yeah. That's literally made up. And they were like,

that's, it's just ridiculous. That's outrageous. Yeah. So. So. concerned. Their attorney Joe Padraza stated, quote, under Pennsylvania law, the determination and the manner of death is always open to reconsideration based on new evidence. And in this case, you can see there's considerable new evidence. Yeah. There is in fact new evidence as recent as 2021. What? Now, give it to me. Oh, honey, just fucking wait for this. Joe Pedraza says that there's new forensic evidence that proves Ellen could not have stabbed herself 20 times. So they were able to use a process called, I might fuck this up, photogrammetry, I believe is how you say it. It's the art and science of extracting 3D information from photographs.

So in this case, they were able to do this with Ellen's wounds and how the knife would have entered each one. What the evidence shows is that it would have been, quote, very improbable for Ellen to wound herself like they say she did from behind because she wouldn't have been able to use the force necessary. which is what you've been saying this whole time. It's the leverage thing and the force that you would need. It doesn't make any sense. The physics doesn't make sense here. No. Like you need a certain amount of like leverage to do that. Right. No, it just immediately I was like, that doesn't make any fucking sense. That slash to her right occipital is like not common in suicides at all. Yeah. So that was strange in and of itself. Now, are you ready for the best part? I'm actually looking at the photos of that like tests that they did. Yeah, it's very interesting, right? That slash? Yeah. No. No. And the other thing is

the angle at which some of those entered is from an upright angle. Yeah, it sure is. Her father was like, I don't care if you're triple jointed. You wouldn't have done, like, you can't do that. You can go this, like, I wish you guys could see us right now. We're like swinging arms. It's not fucking possible. And the more you're, the amount of stab wounds, like, we're going to have to, like, we can post these photos because it's true. When you see. When you see. it in black and white, you're like, what the fuck? There's literally no way. She did this to herself.

Because also it's like one even would be shocking to do it at that angle. And then you're incapacitating yourself. After you've done one or two, to be able to do more after that with that force doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense whatsoever. And then to finish all of those and then have that one be the last one in her chest, no, it makes no sense. No.

Now, to get even more fucking shady, this is crazy. So they also had a forensic evaluation done on Ellen's computer themselves, like the family. They had it done on the hard drive. And they say it proves that Ellen never made searches for anything related to suicide. So those are fucking bullshit. And you can tell their bullshit when they were like, yeah, I didn't write the report. I didn't see it. That's what I love.

I love that they're all just passing the fucking buck. Like even the medical, the assistant medical examiner there, like Lucy, whatever the hell. Yeah. For her to be like, yeah, I just don't remember. She was the neuropathologist. Excuse me, the neuropathologist. She's just sitting there being like, I don't know. Maybe not.

Maybe someone just figured out. I don't know. Like, everyone's just passing the box. And then it was like, I don't have a bill associated with that. I'm like, yeah, because you probably did someone a fucking favor. Well, it's like, what the fuck? Guys? Yeah.

What's happening? The fact that they also did a forensic evaluation on her computer's hard drive and it came back with none of those search terms. No. Like, what? No. So the evidence was said to have been submitted to the attorney general in January of this year. The attorney general released a statement saying, Our hearts go out to the Greenberg family on the anniversary of Ellen's traumatic death. At the urging of the family and following a conflict referral from the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office in 2018,

our office reviewed the case and conducted an extensive investigation that did not uncover evidence to change the medical examiner's finding of suicide. There is no statute of limitation on homicide, however, and if any new evidence is brought forward, we believe it should be reviewed with the proper authorities. At this time, no such information has been shared with our office. That's not true because they literally got that. No. You got the evidence that Joe Pedraza gave them.

I'm not into it, guys. So, the attorney, Joe Pedraza, plans to bring this case to trial at some point this year to prove that the manner of death was a fucking homicide. Hell yes. And there is a change. petition for Ellen's case to be reopened and it has more than 27,000 signatures. Oh, we got to share that. I was going to say, I will link it in the show notes for anyone interested. I am on board. Now, some people do believe that Sam Goldberg's family ties may have led to some kind of cover-up.

His uncle may have been the person he called to the scene before he called the police is a judge and sits as the chair of the ethics and professional responsibility group. He was also appointed by the governor to the court of judicial discipline in 2018. I'm not saying that Sam Goldberg was involved in any way, shape, or form. I'm simply just reporting what other people believe to be potentially true. Okay. He does have a criminal record in Arizona. A lot of the violations are just traffic violations and one charge of providing liquor

to minors. And he was also evicted by one of his landlords while he was living in Arizona. The landlord tried to bring nine civil judgments against him. Okay. Which is interesting. Just worth noting. These days, Sam is married with children and he's living somewhere else. I'm not even going to say where he lives because that's not fair. Yeah.

And that's, I mean, there's nothing violent in that past. There's nothing violent in that. She sat there and told her psychiatrists. I was just going to say the psychiatrist said she seemed genuinely happy talking about him. I think the only reason why people think that is because he has family involved in the judicial system. And because he was the only other person around at the time. Exactly. And there was no that we know of. And while there's no nobody on the camera or anything like that.

So I think people, people always think like the husband do it. I was just going to say, I get why people are questioning. Yeah. But to me it doesn't. It doesn't make sense. To me, there's just not enough. I can't sit there and say that. No.

I believe that we could even question that. But I wonder what she was so stressed about. And the fact that there was bruises of like various healing points, I'm like, was somebody else hurting her? Yeah, I just, that I don't know. Because then I look on the other. side and I'm like, I have like a history of anemia and I bruise like a grape. But all specifically to the right side of her body and there was 11. Yeah, I mean, that's, it's shocking. It's a high number.

But then you have to look at both sides. Yeah, because there's times, you know, there's been times where we're like, where the fuck did this bruise come from? Elena had a bruise on her neck the other day when we were recording and I was like, pause and she's like, what? I'm like, what the fuck is on your neck? And it was a huge bruise. Yeah. And I was like, I genuinely don't know where that came So it does happen. So I... Because she could have been anemic. But I don't know.

I don't know. All I know is that Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself. No, that is what I know. That is fact. Somebody did that. As far as I'm concerned. As far as, yeah. Somebody did that.

Just to finish this off and really great timing, because the rain is starting to fucking pour now. There's a torrential there. I don't know if you can hear that. But Ellen's family plans to continue their fight for justice. Good. In the hopes that someday they'll learn what really happened to their daughter. We're with you, man.

Seriously. Her father said, as long as she's in your mind, she's still there. And her said, when I think of her, I have to think of her during life and the gift that she was to us. Oh, that just hurts my heart. So, oh my God, I want to help these people. Sign that petition because she was not murdered. Excuse me, she did not commit suicide. No. She was murdered. She was murdered. And that family deserves to have fucking justice. That's wild that they haven't been able to. And this is just like another form of just like torturing them. Of course it is. They have no, somebody's walking around who did this. So I hope we have some kind of update because the attorney did plan to bring it to trial later this year.

Yeah, we got to have an update. This year's almost over. Let's go. Come on, guys. Let's make this happen because this is like infuriating. I told you, I got to a latest house this morning and I was like, you're going to be pissed when I give my case today. And I was like, okay, it's going to be really hard though. Can we go upstairs and record? Oh, my God. I'm infuriated. It's insane. It's insane. And you guys are going to be even more infuriated when you see the picture we were talking about. Oh, that when you see a.

right in front of you, you're like, no. No. Literally no. I don't know how anybody thinks that's possible. No. No. No. Well, we hope you keep listening. We hope you. Keep it weird. But that's the way that you walk into a crime scene. You're like, oh my God, I don't even want to look at any of the evidence that's sitting right here in front of me. Like, even though that's my job, I think it was suicide. I got to go by. Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. Let the scene speak to you. Let the body speak to you. Keep it that weird. If you are professional, of course. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you.