Morbid - The Mysterious Murder of Julia Wallace Part 1

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

It’s Alaina-centric and it’s old timey!! We’re heading back to England in the 1930’s. William Herbert Wallace is quite a character, and to be honest so is his wife Julia. When Julia turns up dead in their home, people start taking a closer look at Wallace and his idiosyncratic tendencies. Why doesn’t he seem to be emotional, why is he just petting the cat so nonchalantly, what is this dude's deal? Is he telling the truth about not being involved? Just when you think you know, another shady character steps on the scene!!  HelloFresh: Get twelve free meals—including free shipping!—when you use code morbid12 at HelloFresh.com/morbid12. FirstLeaf: Join today and you’ll get 6 bottles of wine for $29.95 and free shipping! Just go to TRYFirstleaf.com/morbid. Candid Co: Right now, you can save seventy-five dollars on Candid’s starter kit. Go to CandidCO.com/morbid and use code morbid. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. And we're sitting closer to each other than usual. I'm like, hi. I'm like, hey. Don't touch me. We can high five if we want. Here you go. We can fist bump. Oh, no, you, that's a, that's a little. Oh, I have a big ring. I'm sorry. Ah, there we go. Big cocktail ring was about to fuck up my knuckles. Usually I have, like, rings on every finger, too. I know. I just have that one ring that I've got for, like, it's one of those rings that I saw on, like, TikTok. Wait, is it one of them that, like, come in a candle? No. It didn't come in a candle, but it was, I think it's like, Jamandy or something like that. That's fine. It's cool. They have cute rings, and they're, like, pretty cheap.

That's fine. Oh. And it didn't turn my finger green, so. I got us a present that is a ring, but I'm not going to tell you what kind of it is. Oh, I'm excited. I got it on Etsy. Um, did you get one for everyone else?

No. What? Sorry, guys. Oh. I was like, what? No. No. I was like, who's everyone?

All of them. Yeah, guys. Check your mail. I got you a ring. You guys want to marry me? Who doesn't? I, I, I, probably, probably someone. Probably someone from my past that was like, dodge that bullet. Oh yeah, trust me, I got a couple of those two. They're like, whelp. Guys, it's because we always have to tell you the time of the day. It's morbid at night if you couldn't tell. You can always tell the difference. Late night, Ashen, Elena. My voice sounds a little different in the morning.

Yeah, it's, you know, it's the end of the week. We are catching up with ourselves. We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit this coming week and we're excited about it. So we won't be like, we're scrambling to get episodes out in time. So it's going to be great, guys. Get ready. You're going to see a lot more of us. Yeah, we're feeling.

good. Not going anywhere. So this was originally going to be a one part and I was like, oh, fun. Fun case. Like, cool. I'm going to do that for one episode. Okay. And then I did what I do

and I looked and I was like, oh, it's probably going to be eight parts. I can make this an entire season. So Season 82 of Morbid. So this story is often referred to as the impossible murder. Oh. Sorry. I had to clear my throat. Let me clear my throat.

You don't even know how excited you just made me. Yeah, so this is the impossible murder. It's been covered by a ton of like TV shows and movies and people have been hemming and hawing and trying to figure this mystery out for decades. That's weird because I never heard of it. The decades. I have heard of it, but I never looked super into it. Now that I have, I'm like, I get it. Okay. I totally get it. All right. I don't get what happened. No. But I get it. I get the fascination. What are you looking at? I was trying to figure out which knob was mine because I was going to turn down my headphones without asking you to.

She keeps looking up. It's like, what is crawling up the side of my chair that you're looking at and don't want to tell me? No, I was actually just trying not to interrupt the podcast to ask you an annoying question, but I guess you're going to make me. Can you turn my headphones down? Yes, I can. Just a smidgen. Just a smidgen. Sometimes. That's so much better.

sometimes I ask Alina to turn down my headphones and she pretends that she does and she does it and I'll go, that's better. And she's like, I didn't change it. I do that so much. But you did now. But I did do it this time. You saw that. Yeah.

That's like so much better. Okay. Thank you. We were like screaming in my ears. Here you are. Here you are, guys. Sorry to interrupt. So, this takes place in England.

So hello, England. Hello. Oh, boy. That wasn't me. I just want you to know that. Ash really took it back. So again, it's a weird night. It's Easter.

It's Easter. I didn't even. Oh, I had a brownie. No, like I was saying, I was going to say, like, I didn't eat a lot of candy. Like, I don't know why I'm so hyper. And then I was like, oh, I had a brownie. I didn't know what that was. I was like, what is the connection?

And like a regular brownie before anybody tweets at me. Yeah, just a regular brownie. Yeah, there's kids. There's kids, yeah. It's fucking kids, man. All right. So we're going to talk about. Are we?

We're going to talk about. a man named William Herbert Wallace. Yes, William Wallace. Not the same, William Wallace from Brave Hat, Brave Hat, but a William Wallace. William Herbert Wallace. You know, I'm saying, and he was 52 years old. All right.

He was born to August. He said that like I accused you. I was like, he was 52 years old. You were like, all right. I should. I believe you. Should we podcast right now? We should.

I feel like, you know, with this in the last listener tales. I feel like we're killing. All right. I always worry that like my giggling is going to annoy. I like your giggling. Oh my God, thanks, mom. You're welcome. So he was born on August 29th, 1878. Okay. He lived in Anfield or Aenfield. Uh-oh. Oh no. Pause. Yeah. Anfield. Wow, it's like like Jeeves took over your body. It did ask Jeeves. You know, I think somebody like described it in more detail on Twitter and I was like, I actually think I do remember that. I don't know. All right.

Maybe I don't. I don't know. So William. So William. So Ann Field, right? I didn't just forget that. Honestly, I have no recollections. All right.

He was a prudential assurance company employee. So he sold insurance. Okay. He had done a ton of jobs growing up and he had actually landed this job because his dad got him this job. It wasn't what he really wanted to do. But he did it. And he did it well, and it, you know, it did him well. You know, that sounds dirty, but it wasn't.

It did him well. It just didn't really sound dirty. Maybe I just made it that way. But William was known to dress like very fancy. Well, yeah, you're selling insurance. You got to look the part of insurance. Well, and he kind of like, he went with like the old-fashioned look. Like he liked to have a bowler hat.

He had like the raglan shirt. And he was always dressed in a, a. dapper dapper blazer. Oh, I love a dapper dapper blazer. Yeah, and I imagine he always had like a pocket watch somewhere. Or like even just like a flowered pocket square. Yeah, very very Carson Cressley. Exactly. That's exactly how I would describe it. I mean, he was also, he was tall, he was slim. And he looked kind of like what we all think Jack the Ripper looks like almost. Do you have a mustache? He had a mustache. And that's not a commentary on whether I think he's guilty of crime or not that he looked like Jack the Ripper, but I'm just saying. Okay. But he loved to play the

violin, and he would play the violin while his wife, Julia, played the piano. Bitch, love. Seems adorable to me. I'm just saying. So I want to say so scenic, but that's not the right thing to say. I meant wholesome. So scenic, so wholesome. And they would often have people over to their home, they're flat in England. And they would play together. They would like duet music for their... Yeah, put on a little show. A little number. A little folk number. Unfortunately, he was sick a lot. He had a lot of kidney issues.

At one point, he had gone on a business trip, I believe, to India. And while he was there, he ended up having, like, severe kidney issues. Oh, no. He ended up having one kidney removed. And the other kidney, like, never really picked up the slack. So he had a lot of issues throughout his life with the kidneys. Kidney issues, I feel like must hurt a lot because, like, have you about a kidney infection? Oh, my God.

Kidney infections hurt. So bad. And they're real bad. They make you so sick. Oh, I feel for him. So he was married to a woman named Julia. Yes. Julia's maiden name was Dennis, Julia Dennis. She was born April 28, 1861. Now, remember, he was 52. This would make her 69 when she died. The only reason I point that out is because her gravestone says that she was 52 when she died. Oh, that's weird. Even weirder. She married William in 1914 and the marriage certificate says she was 37, but she was 53 in real life. Oh.

So her gravestone shows her as being one year younger than she was when she actually married William. She was lying about 17 years. What? She was literally saying that she was 17 years younger than she actually was. Oh. What a bad bitch. And there's like so many. Anytime I've read anything, people are like, I cannot figure out why.

She didn't want to age. Or if William knew. Which it doesn't seem like he did because on her gravestone, he would have had it say the correct thing. And it's like, she wrote that she was 37 when they got married and she was 52. She was 52 and they got married. Yeah. Wow. 17 years older than what she was actually saying she was.

She must have looked great. It's bonkers to me. Botox before Botox. Botox before Botox. Well, the thing was, she was having a lot of ailments as well. Like, she was always sick as well. Because she was old. Because she was 17 years older than this. But it's just really weird. It's, I don't understand. And the thing is, like, William wasn't understanding why she was sick all the time. Because he didn't know that she was old.

Well, that's why I assume he doesn't, he didn't know her real age. Yeah. That's what it sounds like to me. That's a pretty big secret to hide from your literal partner for life. Maybe she thought at some point she would start like Benjamin buttoning it. Maybe. She didn't, unfortunately. Maybe she thought that she was going to find the fountain of youth like in tuck everlasting. There you go. Deep cut.

Maybe. Maybe. I think that's what she was thinking. I can't rule it out. You don't know? Yeah. Well, either way, she was described as gentle, shy at times, brilliant, artistic, well kept. She was also raised like pretty well to do when it showed.

they lived a pretty they lived like a modest life like but they had money they were comfortable yeah they were definitely comfortable and in a time when a lot of people were not comfortable like hello great depression yeah did they like not live beyond their means i don't think they did it didn't seem like they did it's the best thing you can do and she dressed very prim and proper like her husband and she also dressed old-fashioned like her husband and kind of eccentric well also if she was old well i was just gonna say but was it really old fashioned, it was kind of from her era to be, to be real. So I think like people were like, wow, you're dressing so much older for your age. And she's like, she's like, I'm just so pro-op-up. I'm almost two decades older than I'm saying I am.

Imagine getting away with that. Like, it's one thing to be like, oh. That would be like me, no, I'm not even shitting you right now. That would be like me saying I was four years old right now. Hi, I'm four. Like, that would be a problem. I'd be the orphan. You know? I do. I do know. That would be like you saying that you were 14. Yeah.

That was quick-ass math for me. That was because I was like, I'm not doing that. You'd be 15, actually. That works. But honestly, it makes sense if I was like, you know, hey, I'm 30. Yeah. That makes sense. Honestly, you could probably trick someone into thinking if you were 15.

Now, the more I think about it. I don't think. No. Well, there's been times where you get card. I get carded and you don't. Or the other way around. No, I get carded and you don't. But that would mean that you're like young looking and I'm not.

If you're getting carded, that means right. I was really, I was like, no. I said what I said. You were so confident. I was like, do I let this go? Or do I fight to shit? Fight to the death. Finish him.

Bullie ass. Either way. Yeah, but there, you look at it on. She was, I don't know, I don't know what it is. You look at a picture of her and you're like, get it, Julia. Yeah, was she pretty? She was and she was eccentric. She just like, it didn't give a fuck when it came to that. I'm obsessed with Julia. Julia. With her. She knew several languages. She was a painter. She loved literature, music, obviously, her and her hubby there. She just liked to learn and experience things. That's awesome. But she was also kind of shy, so she didn't like, like, social things kind of freaked her out a little bit, which, like, I get it.

She kind of sounds a lot like you other than lying about her age part. Like, Julia, you and me. Well, you don't dress old either. I try not. I think she just sounded smart, so I was saying that you're smart. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She sounded pretty cool, though, to be honest.

Yeah. Like you. Like I said, shit was definitely rough at this time because, you know, like, that large depression. The great one. But that really great one. Massive depression. But again, he had a good job as an insurance salesman. And together, they had their flat.

I think it was like a three-bedroom flat. It was a nice place. Like she had a room in the flat that was like just for her like handbags and hats. Goals. Yeah, I was like, wow, that's great. She had a walk-in closet before there were walk-in closets. There you go. Now, what's weird is the conflicting ideas of what people say about them as a married couple.

Okay. Now, some people will say that they were very happy. They seemed very normal together as a couple. Others described their marriage as like kind of cold. Haters. And, like, tension-filled? That's what I'm saying. It's weird.

So the age thing kind of is, like, weird later on, too. Because, like, if you're lying about 17 years, what else are you lying about? Oh, yeah. Like, that's a big lie. I just, I want to know why she was lying. And no one can figure it out. Do you think it's because she, like, loved him so much and she didn't think that he would want to marry an older woman?

Maybe. Which, like, that's sad. Yeah. But then there were people that later said that it seemed like she thought she, like, kind of married down. Well, she was, because she was, like, well to do. Yeah. So I think, I don't know. It's, well, maybe she, maybe she, maybe it was, like, what I said, like, she lied because she really wanted to marry him. And then maybe she realized that it wasn't what she wanted, but you couldn't get divorced back then. Maybe. So, maybe the marriage and the love fizzled out. Because, like,

maybe people were lying. Well, people around them would say different things, but, like, their neighbors, the Johnsons, who figure very heavily into this story. Okay. They were around them all the time. And they said, like, they were very affectionate with each other, like a normal affectionate couple, like, not over the top, but by no means were they cold with one another. Well, I believe the Johnson's. I believe the Johnsons, to be honest. I don't know on what basis, but I believe them. But with the age thing and how she lied about that, later we will see that William was asked whether his wife had her own money stashed in the house at all, or like, do you know if she had her own money? And he said, he didn't know if she had her own money. And if she did, he didn't know where it was. And I was like,

It's a weird question. Huh. But I was like, that's weird that, like, you wouldn't know if she had her own money, you know what I mean? Because, like, back then it's not like she was, like, going off to work. You know what I mean? Right. You don't know if she does? Like, that to me says there was more secrets in this marriage than they were letting on.

Well, unless they were like, oh, did she, like, hide money? And he was like, I don't know. Like, I don't think so. He's like, I don't know. Like, maybe. Maybe he's like, I never thought about it. Like, I don't know. It just seems like it was like one of those things that they are definitely.

It's weird. hiding more from each other than a normal or like a seemingly normal couple, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's strange. Just strange, and especially now. After you know you have the case, you're like, huh, that's a little weird. Okay. So one other thing that was just interesting to me is like they're like me and John because she was 5'2 and he was 6.2. Oh, shit.

So she was very short and he was very tall. I like that you gave yourself a couple extra inches there. I gave me a couple of extra inches and I took an inch away from him. Because John is 6'3 and I am 5.1 and a half. Year five. So they would also, like I said, they were both pretty sickly. Yeah. But what was funny is people would say that they would like switch off ailments. Like one of them was always sick. I think that's like a phenomenon. Well, this was more, this wasn't one of those things like, oh, like I get the cold and then he gets the cold. Well, that just makes sense. One of them would be down and out sick in bed for a week. And then when that one was better, immediately she would get sick and down and out, but with something different. Yeah, that's weird. And what people said was it wasn't one of this like, oh, funny things. It was like a competition almost.

Like my, I'm sicker than you kind of thing. Do you think one of them had like munchausen's? I don't think so. I mean, because William was definitely sickly. Like he had sick. The kidneys. Yeah. Like the kidney thing really probably would take him out a lot.

Do you think she was like competing with it? And I think she was actually what we will find out later, she had a lot more ailments than real ailments than people were letting on too. All right. But it's just people were saying like they were just always sick and it seemed like they were always like people kept describing it as a tit for tat with sicknesses, which is very weird. Yeah. And actually, William kept a diary, which figures heavily into the court case later. Oh, fun. They really go into it. And he would say sometimes, like, he was kind of annoyed with how she was

always sick. Well, because even when you're getting over it, like, even when he wasn't sick anymore and it was her turn, he was probably still getting over it. So he's probably like, I don't want to fucking take care of you right now. And it just is one of those things where you're like, can you just like, give me? me a minute. Just give me a minute. Let me have my sick time. No, I have to take care of you. Yeah. But they did have a housekeeper that came by the house every Wednesday. Her name was Sarah. All right. She commented later that it did seem like William was not happy, like I said, being an insurance salesman. He felt kind of saddled with the gig. And he really, he was making money at it. It was fine. It was good work. But he really loved and wanted to pursue science. Oh. And we'll see that later. I'll explain it. And he couldn't, and I think it was kind of depressing him.

Like he did say in his diary that, you know, they poured over that he said he would feel depressed at times and down and like not happy with his life. But then he would, you know, gush about his wife sometimes. He would talk about how much he loved her or cared for her. And then other times he would be like she's really annoying and sick all the time. It's kind of like. So it's like a normal stream of consciousness, I think, for somebody going through a lot of shit. Yeah. Because it's not like this is like a very.

constant, economical, you know, like, there's no, there's nothing that's comfortable right now. No. Because everything was in flux. So it's like... Not only is like the economy in flux, but like their health is in flux. Maybe their love situation is in flux. Yeah. It just seems like there's a lot going on and he's not happy about his job, but he still has a job.

So I'm sure he was like good days and bad days. Yeah. So it sucks. Yeah. So that's who they are as people. All right. Where are we headed? Let's take you to January 19.

to 1931. All right, let's go. Now, we're going to take you to the central chess club at City Cafe on North John Street. Chess is like kind of a big thing in this case, which is interesting. Weird. So William did join a chess club. He was part of a chess club for a while. And it was literally like they would meet like two times a week and they would all like play against each other. You had like matches. They would have tournaments. It was like a thing. And it, you know, keeps your mind working. That sounds cool. Do you know how to play chess? I don't. I used to know very loosely how to play chess. I have not even the vaguest. I've actually always wanted to like sit down and really learn chess. Maybe we should do that. We should do it together. Yeah. I feel like it's such a good mind workout. I just, I don't even give a fuck about that. I just want to say checkmate. And like, and then I want to. I don't even want to play. I just want to say checkmate again. No, I want to play. And I want to throw the board when I went at the end. I love that. Like over. turn it? Yeah. Just flip it up. Like Teresa. I would love to get a really beautiful chess set. Oh, yes. But I don't want to be one of those people that has one and doesn't know how to play chess. I need to

know how to play chess first. Yeah, that'd be stupid. I want to earn my beautiful chess set. Oh, and you could get like really like like, um, like, um, like, um, like, um, like cool gothic. Yeah. Yeah. Like a got, like a gothic castle chess set. Yes. That's all I want. Or we could get one of those giant ones, like in Harry Potter. And we could explode at the end if we lost. And there we are as people. Yeah. That right there. Yeah.

I love it. Yeah. That's why I love you. I love you. I love you. So Captain Samuel Beattie, that guy. He is the guy that he would run the chess club. He sounds like he would.

Yeah, and he was a cool guy. He's the guy that originally gets a phone message this night, January 19th, 1931, which is for William Wallace at the chess club. club before he arrived and it set this whole thing into motion. All right. So we're going to see. Now, Samuel Beatty, according to the killing of Julia Wallace by Jonathan Goodman, yes, she dies.

Spoiler alert. The killing of Julia Wallace is a great book. They go into like massive detail about every single second of this case. And I could not put it down. So I highly recommend it. Kindle? It is on Kindle. So go get it.

All right. So they said that Beatty would come straight from work and go to the cafe on Mondays and Thursdays to set the chess club up. He knew William Wallace for about eight years. They were very friendly. They played chess together a lot. You know, all that fun stuff. At the chess club, whoa. He said he was a very nice man.

Like very nice. At most, I could not find anybody that was like William Wallace was a dick or anything less than like. He was so pleasant. He doesn't really sound like a dick. He seemed like a nice guy. Yeah. He did say that he could be a little flaky. And he said because he was sick a lot.

Same. Well, he said he's sick a lot so he doesn't show up for matches. He's at chess club one week. He's not there for three weeks. That's not flaky. That's just somebody going through illness. Yeah. And I think he also was just like he just wouldn't show up sometime.

Like he was just kind of like whatever. I feel that so hard. But he didn't hold it against him. But he said he did only show up here and there for chess club. He was definitely not like a regularly attending person. He hadn't been there. since December at this point in January 19th. So he had once told them that he just didn't like leaving his wife at home at night alone.

Bitch. Which, like, my heart. The deeper we're getting into this, this is starting to sound familiar to me. Is it? Yeah. Look at that. Well, around 7.20 p.m. on January 19th, the waitress at the city cafe named Gladys Harley. Of course.

She answered the phone, Gladys. Gladys. I don't know why it fell out. I feel like, even if it's someone in your body. Sorry that was Patricia. Even in England, I feel like she's like, hey, it's Gladys. I don't think so. I just feel that.

Even your whole entire face, that was honestly a little scary. Oh, guys. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Sorry, I had a possession moment. Gladys took over my body. I almost left. Oh, Gladys. Answered the phone.

Hey, it's Gladys. To Gladys. Okay. We took a place there to collect ourselves. And I'm ready to talk about Gladys, everybody. I'm ready to talk about it. Glades. She answered the phone.

And it was the operator who was telling her, someone's on the line for you. Whoa. What the fuck is that all about? And she's, so she waited, because that's what you do in 1931. You wait. Wait. And she just heard a couple of voices on the other end. And she said, she was like, it sounded like they were just talking to each other.

So she was like, do you need something? Can I help you? because Gladys is not fucking around. She's got waiting to do. She doesn't have time for this. So she heard a man's voice, and she said it sounded kind of like a little fancy, a little upper crusty, you know. Krusty.

And it was asking if she was on the line with the central chess club. And then she was like, yes, I am. And this person said, is Mr. Wallace there? And she was like, I don't really know who that is. So she was like, I will ask. Because she was waitressing there, but she didn't know everybody's name. that came in for the chess club. So she went to Beatty, and she asked him.

And he said that Wallace wasn't there yet, but he was due to play a match later that night. So he was expecting him to show up, but he told her, you know what, I'll just talk to the guy on the phone for you and see what he wants. Yeah. He was like, why should you relay all this? So he tells the guy, hi, Wallace isn't here, but he may be arriving shortly, but it's kind of a crapshoot because, like, Wallace, am I right? And so the guy on the other end says, can you give him a message for me? And he's like, sure. So he says, can you tell him to call me tomorrow at 7.30 p.m. or come see me tomorrow at 7.30 p.m. at 25 men love gardens east. Men love gardens. Men love gardens. East. So he said it's business related. It's insurance related. He'll know what it means. So he's like, sure, dude, what's your name? And I bet that's what he said. Yeah. And he says it's, Sure, dude, what's your name? What's your name? And he says it's

R M. Qualtrow. No, it's not. Yeah, Qualtra. Qualtra. That's what it is. And he wrote it down for him because he was like, how the fuck do you spell Qualtra? How the, I was trying to be fancy that I was like, fuck. That's what he said. How the fuck do you spell that? I can't think of any other fancy name. That's the only word I could come up. Oh, on God's green earth day. Spell that. So Qualtra. So he wrote it down for him and that was that.

Sure. The call came right before Wallace arrived because he arrived right after that. Weird timing. A little bit. He had apparently been recovering from the flu. He said he had the flu the week before. Oh, man. And he said Julia, his wife had also been recovering from a nasty cold.

Oh, Julia. So when Wallace got there, he started catching up on some matches with other players. And because he's so flaky, he was kind of behind. And there are rules that you have to like do so many months. matches to get into a tournament, so he was trying to get his shit together. You know what I mean, man? Yeah. So he's playing chess, and Beatty comes and tells him about this Qual-T-R-T-R-T-R-R-R-U-G-H.

Q-U-A-L-T-R-U-G-H, Qual-R-T-R-R-R-R-T-R-E-H-R-E-R-E-R-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-E-R-E-E-E-R-E. He doesn't exist. He doesn't exist. Spoiler alert. So it doesn't matter. I kind of felt like he didn't. So he's like, what? Qualtrow? Qualtra? What is that? He was like, I don't know anyone named that. And he was like, I never even heard that name. Yeah, it's weird. But he's like, well, he wants you to meet him or call him tomorrow and he gives him all the information. So he made it clear. Wallace made it clear right there. He was like, I don't know this address. I've never heard of this address. I don't know this guy. It sounds made up all of it. Yeah. Like, he was like, this whole thing is weird. So after the matches, he walked and took the tram with couple of the other men from the club. And he walked home partially with a very good friend of his

and a fellow chess player named James Caird, who said they spoke about the mystery caller, like as they walked home. And he said Wallace was genuinely confused by this person. Yeah. And said he had never heard of him. And he said, what a funny sounding name? Yeah. He was genuinely like, what the fuck? Like, why was he calling me at chess club? It's weird. Well, that's the thing. Because it's like, can you have them call me? And it's like, well, then he has a phone. So. Well, that's why, and by all accounts that talked to him that night, he did seem genuinely like, what the fuck? Yeah. So there's that.

But a weird little tidbit about the street that Julia and William lived on. It was Wolverton Street. And according to that book, The Killing of Julia Wallace and a couple of other articles I read, it had a lot of death attached to it. Oh. Like weirdly so. Almost cursed. People would say it was cursed. And I kind of believe them.

Fuck that. So in the year before Julia's death, three people were. people had killed themselves on the street. Five women lost their husbands in weird, like, tragic ways. Oh, that's weird. Another person who lived on the street died while watching a soccer match, and another fell to their death on vacation off a building. In England, that would actually be a football match?

I almost said a football match, but then I was like, no, it's soccer here. So I'm just going to stay in my lane. But, yeah, you would say football. Football. I don't know what, I was like, football. Kind of sounded like you said football. Football. football match. You know, a football match over there or a soccer match over here. You all get it.

So lots of people dying on the street is the moral of that story. So again, people were thinking it was cursed. So on top of this, on top of all that gnarly situation, there was a creep. And he was creep, creep, creepin on this street. During this time, there was a guy or a gal referred to as the on-field housebreaker. Bitch. And he had... Could to break your house? He's going to break the shit out of your house. And he had broken into upwards of 30 homes recently in the area.

He was... And I'm saying he, because I'm just generalizing here, he would usually do it when no one was home. But the strange thing about this is they used a key, whoever it was. Are it... These are, are they like apartment buildings? No, these are like flats. Like actually homes. Yeah.

And he would either use a key that was... copied or he would use or they thought maybe like a skeleton key that he could get into everywhere that's and they didn't catch him oh man or her or them whoever it was because we didn't we don't know never yeah we've no idea maybe it was qualterall and this was all happening as this is going on so that's something to keep in mind now that night he had dinner with julia at home julia had made a nice dinner um all was well that evening she was like getting over this cold she still wasn't feeling that great apparently though she was upset because her black cat was missing. No, I'm not even talking about it. Yeah. Nothing bad happens to the cat, so don't

worry. No, I know. It's just like my worst fear is losing Freakle-Nor-Locks. I think about it every day. I feel that. So that was that night. The next day, January 20th, 1931, Wallace worked all day. He would go around collecting insurance payments all around the area. It was like a very tiring job. I was going to say sounds like bullshit. Yeah. And at lunch, he would come home and he had lunch with Julia and then he did a little bit of work on his own because like I said he loved science this is when it comes back he had a very big interest in science particularly biology and chemistry his prized possession was a microscope that he spent a pretty penny on but he had once actually tried to build his own microscope damn yeah like what a badass he had actually gone to school

early on for science he had gone to technical school and after he got his certificates in biology chemistry and I think electrical science. Yeah. He went on to become a part-time professor of sorts at the Liverpool Technical College. Wow. I wonder why he stopped. I think because he just needed more,

he needed the money. More money. I think it was really just like trying to make ends meet. He spent about an hour there doing some experimenting in his makeshift lab that he made in one of the three bedrooms. She had a hat room. He had a microscope room. I love that.

I love it. And then he left again around three to get back to his insurance work. Okay. Now, sometimes, sometimes, sometime before four, a friend and a client of his named James Rothwell saw him walking. And he noted that he appeared like he had been crying to him. Wallace looked like he had been crying? Yeah.

And he described him as, quote, haggard and drawn, very distressed looking. Okay. Which is interesting. And he was a very good friend of his, like he, in a client. He saw him all the time. So he knew what he would look like usually? he said he was like wiping his eye with like his shirt. Oh.

So that's interesting. Yeah, it's weird. But then another client, however, said that he was his normal self that day and said she saw him often wiping his eyes or nose with a kerchief because she said he always seemed to have the sniffles or cold. Because he was sickly. Exactly. So I just want to make sure all of these get said because this is what this is what makes

this case nuts. It's like a he said she said. Nothing adds up. One person says this. another person says this, and they both make sense. It's like, what is the truth here? So there was actually a boy named Neil Norbury, and he delivered baked goods, and he went to the Wallace home that day.

Why does no one deliver baked goods anymore? That sounds so lovely. But this was when William was out doing his insurance thing, and he said that Julia answered the door, and she was very sweet and nice, but she did appear sick to him, like, not feeling well. And she was just getting over the flu. Yeah, and I think it was like kind of getting, like, it was getting worse almost. Yeah. I think she wasn't getting that much better.

Perhaps pneumonia. Perhaps. Now, his last appointment that day was a woman named Margaret and Martin, and she was actually going to be ending her insurance policy. So there was like a lot of paperwork for that one. She was fuzzy on the time that he came by at trial later. They believe he was with her at 545. And it's between 6 to about 7.05 p.m.

that no one can really account to where he was. Okay. So he just kind of like disappears. No one can say where he was. No one can say that they saw Julia. Right. She was at home supposedly, but like no one can really say anything.

He spoke to many people once he popped back up. Which seems a little weird. It does. He popped back up around 706. Now this is the night he's supposed to meet Qualtra, remember, at 7.30. So he was on his work. way to meet Qualtra. I was going to see. He's like, I'm going to go meet him. He's a prospective client. I got to make the money. That makes me nervous. So he said he got, he asked conductors of the tram

about which tram to take to the specific address. He talked to ticket takers about this important meeting that he had. He kept talking to people. He talked to the people in the tram and kept saying how he was lost and he didn't live here. And so he didn't know his way around here. And if somebody could tell him where this address was. And he kept saying, I'm just like the new guy in town. I don't know where I'm going. And he just kept talking to people. And what people think later is that this could have been him being like, hi, hello, here's my alibi. I'm here. What's going on, everybody? You'll remember my face, right? I'm the guy talking about not knowing where I'm going. I'm not new in town. Hey, and I'm supposed to be going to this address. Make sure you tell the police that later. Again,

I don't know. Nobody knows. I'm just saying that's a possibility. I really like Wallace so far, so I don't want to hate him. I know. I'm saying. So he changed from the foretram. A tram? Tram. I almost said train. I said tram. And then it turned into train. So tram.

It was a tram. He changed from the four tram and took the five tram from, what was it, Anfield? I'll never say right. I have no recollection. Anfield to Men Love Gardens. Now, the first stop was Men Love Avenue. And a conductor pointed him in the direction of Men Love Gardens west and said it was likely around there that he would find Men Love Gardens east.

but he said, I've actually never heard of Menloved Gardens East, only West. So he was like, but I imagine it's near the West. I don't know. Yeah. So at 745, so he's going to look for it, you can't find it. So at 745, he actually stopped a police constable and asked him for directions. Now, the police constable was like, yeah, I've never heard of that. I don't think that exists. Yeah, he was like, I'm not really sure.

And during this time, he actually talked to at least four different people for directions. he said he talked to seven different people later. That would be a lot of people to ask directions. But they only brought four, and they were able to bring four trial to say he did talk to them. The first one was a guy named Sidney Green, and he told him the whole thing, and he said, okay, I don't know about East, but I know there's a West. And he said, maybe this person gave you East and meant West. Yeah, they just messed up.

Yeah, so why don't you go to that address, 25 Men Love Gardens West, and see if that's the person. So he did. And it was actually the lady that was living there was an elderly lady named Katie Mather. And she said, yeah, I don't know who Qualtrow is. And it wasn't me who called you. So she was like, I don't know what to tell you. I've never heard of that one. So the constable he spoke to was James Sargent. And he said, yeah, that address, that address doesn't exist. And so he said after that, Wallace just told him the whole story. like was just like well you know I go to chess and I was at chess and this guy named Qualtra called my chess captain and he told me that he got and he went through the whole detailed story and the constable was like that sucks like I don't know what to tell you so you could see that is weird but have you ever like met somebody that just like continues to tell you things that don't

matter and you're like uh-huh exactly so it's like you can look at this as he's really trying to establish an alibi and he's trying to tell the constable every detail of this so it's like really in there. So later this constable will be like, oh, yeah. Right. Or he's just frustrated. He can't find this fucking address. He doesn't know who this guy is.

And do you ever get frustrated? And you're just like, can I just tell you why I'm frustrated? Like, I'm pissed and this is what happened today. You know, you're- Or he maybe didn't want like the constable to think he was like a crazy person. I'm sorry to like bother you. Like, this is what happened. That's why I thought this address was real.

There is many. there's so many things that could be the reason for this. And you could go in any direction based on which one you feel like you want to lean on. I don't want to be on Wallace's side if he's a murderer. I don't know. Oh, fuck. You won't know. That's the sad part.

Great. So he directed him. The constable did direct him to the post office and the police station was like either one of those. You can go for like a directory and see if somebody can help you there. So he ran into a woman named Lily Pinch's at the post office. where the directory was. And again, she was like, no, that address doesn't exist. So after this, he was like, fuck it. Definitely doesn't exist. So he gave up. He was like, I'm not doing this. So 8.35 p.m., a woman named Lillian Hall, who is a 20-year-old typist, she said she saw

Wallace with a man on Richmond Road, and they were chatting. And it was close to Wolverton Street, which is where he lived and where the murder occurs. And this was at 8.35 p.m. this will come back later obviously like Lillian just came forward afterwards um but that's just interesting that she said she couldn't say who it was a man just a man so 845 that's when he was seen by his neighbors john and florence johnston uh but he they saw him he was outside of his home and they said he looked kind of flustered and they said he appeared a little nervous and like you know weird and so they were like you okay william like what's going on. And he said, I'm trying to get in my house, but all my doors won't open. He was like, they're all

locked, but my key won't work. That's weird. And they were like, what? Like, that's weird. So they were like, are you sure? Like, are you sure you're not using the wrong key? And he was like, no, I'm not. And then he said, did you hear anything weird tonight? That's a little bit weird. And they were like, no, but like, let us help. Because they, again, they have no reason to see he's never been weird. He's never been violent. He's never been somebody they would have to like, raise an eyebrow at before? Well, and I say that's weird, but then it's like, it's not that weird because he's like, did you hear someone like fucking with my locks? Exactly. It's not that weird, actually. Upon first listen, you're like, oh, that's weird. And then when you think about

you're like, well, you might ask that actually. Yeah, like, I might be like, did you see anything? My locks aren't working. Did you hear weird shit happening out here? Like, my wife's in there. I'm a little nervous. Yeah. So, yeah. So it's like, that's weird. So he said, so he told them, I arrived after being out since 645. I left Julia in here. The doors were locked. And he said, I couldn't open them with my key when I came home. And he said he had tried them all, the back and the front.

So they suggested, you know what, let's try again. We'll help you. I'll try to see what's going on here. And they walked towards the back door. And he just randomly said to them, she won't be out. She had such a bad cold. And they were like, okay. But maybe he said that like something has happened here.

she's still home and I'm scared. Exactly. Like I think again upon first listen you're like that's weird and then we're like no I think maybe he's running through it and it said and he's like she's not answering the door but there's no way she's out. She has a bad cold so he's trying to reason it in his head like why the fuck isn't she answering the door she's in there so it's not weird so it's not weird at least to me. So they both walk around back and they try the door click it opens with easily with the key. Okay now they said he now that that's pretty weird. Well then they see that he seemed very like flustered and shocked by this. Okay.

Like that he was like, it didn't open before. I swear. He sounds like he's having like some kind of like mental break. And he wasn't. He was very with it. Like he was, they said he was very clear, but they said like he, the door opened and he was like, it wouldn't do that before. He was like, I swear to you it didn't open before.

Like he was like, what the fuck? Like he was, they said he looked genuinely shocked that the door opened. Okay. So it was pitch black in the house. Spooky. So he does what you do in the 30. which is light a fancy lantern, and he walked in his home. That's what you do.

He called for Julia a couple of times, and then he came out a minute later, and they said he was white as a sheet, and he said, oh, come and see, she's been killed. Well, you really can't control, like, if you lose color from your face. No, you really can't. Of course, that could be that he's like, oh, shit, they're here now, and I have to deal with this and, like, put on a show. So it's like, you would definitely go a little white because you'd be like, fuck. Yeah. And also it could be that he is genuinely upset that he found his, well, this is frustrating. It's also a little weird that like, come and see. Yeah. That's a weird way to say that. That's all like, who knows? Again, we're also going to be dealing a lot with somebody who is in a strange position.

And it's like, you can't really say what you would say in this situation. Nope. Come and see is a little weird. I don't know. Like, come and see. Wouldn't you just be like, oh my God. God, I found her in there. Like, don't go in there. I'd be like, holy shit, don't go in there. I don't know, though. So they went, and they saw. Yikes. They found Julia on the floor in front of the fireplace, face down, and she had very clearly

been beaten to death very violently in the head. Her skull was... Which seems personal. Certainly does. Her skull was bashed in, like, caved in. There was blood sprayed all over the entire room, some as high as seven. She was laying on a coat and in a large pool of her own blood. Her eyes were wide open and staring. And her right arm was outstretched above her. Okay. And her other arm was to her side, down by her side. Her dress had been partially burned. And it looked like the coat had also been partially burned.

Almost like she must have like maybe fallen into like close where the fire was. And then maybe she was moved or rolled over there. Her brains were exposed. on the floor. Get the fuck out of here. Along with pieces of skull. And William turned to his neighbors and said, they finished her. Look at her brains. Oh, okay. Which again. But, okay, then the other thing is, like, a lot of times people who, like, love science, like, I don't know why I think of, like, Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. But, like, you say things in, like, a way that, like, maybe I wouldn't, you know? I, and maybe I'm thinking of, like, I don't, like, I don't, like, I don't know how to respond correctly in a highly emotional situation. And I probably sound very like off-putting sometimes. Like I'm sure that can happen. But it's just because like my brain doesn't

function well in these like very high emotional. And I'm and I feel like that's a very like sciencey like right brain kind of thing. Yeah. I think it's just like some people like that would be a lot for me. Like it would be a lot for anybody but obviously, but like that would be. You're not good at my. I'm not saying it in a mean way, you're not good on emotions. No, and my brain just wouldn't compute what's the correct thing to say in that situation. Like, socially it wouldn't work for me. I feel like a lot of times, sciencey people, like when you say something, like it's a little bit like harsh and somebody else would be like, oh, okay, that's very like, it's almost like a doctor.

Sometimes doctors will say something to you and you're like, bedside manner kind of thing. Yeah. You know? And that's because that obviously happened a lot in my life that people would be like, oh, shit, okay. Yeah. Just very blunt. And I'm like, no, I didn't mean for that to come out that way, but I don't know how else to say this. Yeah. And it's frustrating. Trust me, it's frustrating for the person being that way. But I'm sure it's

frustrating for everybody around them as well. It's a very, like I just said, right brain. Yeah. Right brain versus left. So again, you're right. That's one of those things where that might just be, he doesn't know what else to say, but the obvious, which is look, her brains are on the floor. Like, they really killed her. Yeah. Who knows? And he might be, if he didn't do this, then he's completely stricken with grief and shock. I will say, it is weird that he said they. That's, and he does say, he says it, he says it a few things, like they've finished her. Yeah. But I don't know if that's just, again. Right. It's one of those, yeah. Like, they does imply that like he might know something else, but it can also just be him being like, I don't know what else to say. Yeah.

You know. So they said he, again, they said he was absolutely white as a sheet and clearly in shock. He just kept saying over and over, they finished her. Over and over. Yeah. Weird thing to say. I'm just saying, because if we're going to straddle on over to this side, that's a weird fucking thing to say. Yeah.

Oh, it just keep saying it over and over. That's weird. If I was there, I'd be like, you should probably stop saying that. Hey, hey, stop saying that. I'd be like maybe talk about how much you loved her and like how sad you are. Maybe like, we get it. Yeah. They finished her. It's cool. Like just maybe like, oh no, my beautiful wife.

Or you know what? Or just shut, shut up. Yeah. Before Warren in the corner. Be quiet. William. Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. That's what you need to say to him. Yeah. Don't be suspicious. Because you're being suspicious. So John Johnson, Johnston, he and Florence brought Wallace out of the parlor and away from Julia's mutilated body. in the kitchen they noticed that a cabinet had literally been torn like the door had been torn off of it

and it was laying in pieces on the floor and it was Wallace who actually first noticed it and pointed it out and was literally like hey look what they did my cabinet like literally was like they did that I didn't do that like what is that and so there was a few coins on the floor as well around it and he said it he looked in there because they were like, you should check and see if anything's been stolen. And he said that about four pounds had been stolen out of the cash box that was headed in there. So they were like, okay, cool. They stole stuff. So they had him look upstairs, which is a bad plan, but like go off Johnstons.

Yeah, I suppose. Like they were like, hey, you should go upstairs and go check more. And it's like, guys, there could still be someone up there. You don't know if this person's still in the house. And also, like, I don't know. Just why don't you get the police here? Yeah, maybe just call another constable. Like, I think they were all in a little bit of a shock, but like...

But that's the thing. You do silly things when you're like... But like, just don't send him upstairs. Don't do that. I just didn't think that was a great idea. Hindsight's 20-20. Yeah, so he went up there and he said he hadn't seen anything like strange up there. And he said there was actually a jar upstairs that was sitting right in the open with money in it.

And it was still there. That's weird. So that's strange. Yeah. Unless they just didn't go upstairs. Yeah, exactly. So Wallace was shocked clearly and said something also to them about like the dishes in the sink and how he said something like offhandedly like she didn't even have she didn't even have a chance to clean up after tea. Which again could be looked at as strange, but it could be looked at as somebody who is literally like careening off the edge of like grief and just horror being like she didn't even get to clean up after tea.

You know you like you just think of weird shit. Yeah. So again. Now, John decided Mr. Johnston, he left to get the police and a doctor. Good call. Florence checked Julia again because she was like, I need to make sure that this is what it is. She's definitely out. Florence is, and Florence seems like she like really has her shit together. Okay. Like, I appreciate Florence. I feel like she was trying to hold everyone down here.

She's the machine. Get it. So she was, she is. And she said that she was still warm, but she said she was getting cooler. her. Like she had felt her when they first went in there and she was warm and she said she was getting slightly cooler. But Wallace inquired about what they could have used to hit her. He was like, what could they have used to do this? The fire poker. And there was nothing that they could see that was used or could have been used. Like nothing had blood on it. There was nothing there. So they were like, okay, they must have taken it with them or put it somewhere. Yeah. What they did find was spent matchsticks next to her and in the,

kitchen. So that's interesting. Wallace then noticed the coat under her was actually his coat. Oh. And when he noticed that, Florence said he started to sob uncontrollably. Did he really love that coat? I don't know. So she tended to the fire, Florence did, to keep Wallace warm. And it was in the kitchen, because there was another fire in the kitchen. And she tried to keep him comfortable. Oh, Florence. Just tried to, you know, Florence, everybody. Trying to ease the pressure. Florence. She's Florence Nightingale. who she is. Aw.

Look at that. So the Liverpool City Police Force finally showed up. They were known at this time as a little bumbling. There was, I'm going to be nice. There was police strikes in 1919, and like that kind of really threw a wrench into their, like, effectiveness. For 11 years? Well, they just couldn't get their shit together because, like, the police strike happened.

Then people were starting to get jobs on this force that probably had. no business getting jobs. Then it's, you can't just, you're not going to get rid of them. It just becomes a problem. It really does. It really does. It's like you've dealt with it. It really does, guys. Let me tell you. It really becomes a problem. So they were bubbling as fuck. Okay. So luckily the cop who showed up first here was at least like passable. So that's good. Officer Fred Williams or Constable Fred Williams. He checked that he came. He checked that Julia was dead, and then he asked for a statement. But the problem was he didn't record this statement right away from William. He didn't record it until an hour and a half later.

Mine might be a little fuzzy. There's that. Now, this is the statement that he recorded that William said. Like, perhaps. At 645, I left the house in order to go to Menlove Gardens, and my wife accompanied me to the backyard door. She walked a little way down the alley with me, and then she returned and bolted the backyard door. She would then, then, be alone in the house. I then went to Men Love Gardens to find the address that had been given to me was wrong. Becoming suspicious, I returned home, then went to the front door. I inserted my key to find I could not open it. I went round to the backyard door. It was closed, but not bolted. I went up the backyard and tried the door, but it would not open. I again went to the front door, but this time

found the door to be bolted. So now he's saying that he went to the front. It wouldn't work. Went to the back. It wasn't bolted, but he couldn't open it. Went to the front. Now it's bolted. Okay. So like, what the fuck? Like, someone bolted the door between you going from the back to the front?

And you didn't see anyone leave. And you didn't say that to anyone before? Like, that's a little strange. But also did the constable just fuck that up because it was an hour and a half later? Well, it becomes a weird thing. So this is William's statement. He did say this. Okay.

He said, I hurried round to the back and up the backyard and tried the back door. and this time found it would open. I entered the house, and this is what I found. Okay. This is very like knives out. It really, right? It is. This is a straight up murder mystery.

Murder mystery game. It is. This doesn't sound real, but it's real. I know. That's what, like, astounded me about this. Yeah. That's why you're getting a part too, because I can't stop, won't stop. I can't quit you.

Because I'm only going to get you as far as him being, like, questioned. Bitch. And then we got so much more after that. but I just couldn't jam it into one episode. It would be rushed. So Florence did say that while he was being questioned here in the kitchen, that the cat appeared. Just walked in the door. The cat came back. Isn't that weird? That is weird. So two more cops showed up and Williams had Wallace searched the home with him. And he did note that the money was missing and that there was money undisturbed upstairs. So he put that down in his report. He said there was also handbags up there

and a handbag downstairs of Julia's that had not been touched, not been rifled through, and that no drawers were open, which he thought was weird if someone was going to be like rifling around, they usually leave the drawers open. Yeah. So at this time, Constable Williams seems to take Wallace as calm and emotionless, he said. But, you know, he said he was very cool, very composed, very with it. But, you know, sometimes people in these situations snap to it and get where they need to be when they need to talk to an authority figure or that's just how they process it. Or you might just be like really fucking shocked.

So you're just kind of like, let me go through the motions. And then later when everybody leaves, it hits you. Exactly. And he's sobbed. He's coming up. He's going to be on like a roller coaster. Yeah. But the other side of that could be the other side of that could be.

that he's only sobbing about his jacket because maybe he realized, fuck, I left that jacket there and that's really going to pin me to this. Right. So who knows? Not me. Too much. So when they asked him if he thought it was strange that the thief had taken money from the cash box and then put

the lid back on the cash box and placed it back on the shelf, but left the door on the floor, he didn't have anything to say. But he said, sure, like it's strange. Yeah. But he didn't have any like answer for it. And of course, you wouldn't if it wasn't you. At around 10 p.m., this is where things get really cookie. So at around 10

p.m., Professor John Edward Whitley McFall came to do some Emmy work. Yes, he did. Now, this dude is a legend in his own mind. But in reality, he's a big bowl of what the fuck. Oh, I love that expression you just said. He really is. He's a giant, giant bowl of what the fuck. He was a weird dude apparently who smoked opium, but was well known. He had various reviews about him. Some people thought he was like brilliant. Other people were like, what the fuck? Like, he was just one of those things. Maybe he used to be brilliant. Yeah, people who worked with him thought he was brash, very eccentric, but he was pretty smart. Just a lot. All right. He was the chair of forensic medicine at the University of Liverpool and was an examiner of medical

jurisprudence at four other universities. So he did have a lot of credits to his name. This is when she gets weirder. He just basically walked in, looked at her, touched her for a minute, noted the rigor, looked at the blood. And then he was like, yeah, she's been dead for like four hours. Excuse me, sir. It's 1931.

2021, you couldn't walk into a room and be like, she's been dead for this many hours. Like, no, no, no, that's not how that works. She's not CSI Miami. Didn't look at lividity, no observing that, no temp checking, nothing. Just boom, four hours because of the appearance of rigor. She has rigor in her face. All right. So I'm going to say four hours.

And then they were like, yeah, the blood's clotting. So that works for me. Okay, dokey. That's not enough, my friend. That's not enough. So at the very least, you take the temp of the room and take her rectal or liver temp to get a core temp for her. That way, you can use the formula that they definitely

knew back then. They knew this formula for body temp and like checking how long it takes your body to cool to ambient temperature. So you would use that formula to determine the cooling time and where the body has reached the temperature of his or her surroundings. Because your body starts cooling or heating, depending on where you are, the second you stop breathing. So it's trying, basically your body wants to make its way to ambient temperature, which in this case would have been the temp in the room she was found in. It goes about that by like, you lose like 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit every hour until you kind of plateau where the ambient temperature is.

All right. Or if you're in a really hot place, your body will warm to that temperature. So you take that rectal or liver temp. Liver is a little harder, especially if there's a lot of wounds. You can't go into an existing wound to take the temp and you'd have to make an incision. Yeah. So a lot of times they will take the rectal temp for. that core temp, but you don't care because you're dead.

And they'll take that and you subtract it by the normal body temp, which is about 98.6 degrees for most of us, but that can vary. And you get that number and then you divide it by the 1.5, which is how your body cools or warms. That number that you get usually can give a decent estimate of time of death. Right. How many hours? Particularly in this scenario where the environment,

environment is pretty temp control because it's indoors. And we're not in the forest where the temp is like constantly changing and fluctuating. But unfortunately, her temp may not have been 98.6 because remember, she was sick. So she could have had a higher temp. And was there a fire going? There was a fire going. At some point. So it's like this is going to fluctuate slightly.

Yeah. And she was partially burned. Right. So it's like that temp could definitely mess up. But he didn't even. try any of this. He just knew. Not only did he not even give it a shot, but the amount of variables

would have even made it hard if he had done it, but he didn't even bother. So for him to claim four hours based on rigor, which is also very variable on temperature, like cold or hot, how long it's going to set, how hard it's going to set, how long it's going to take to break. It's insane. Because this room is a hot room.

Of course, it's going to be different. You don't even take that into consideration. He didn't even give a range. He just said four hours. Boom. Now, 2021, they still are going to give you a range. It is so hard to pinpoint time of death. That's insane. Now, that would mean also that she was dead way before Wallace claimed to have said goodbye to her and watched her walk back into the house. Yeah, so this motherfucker's wrong. Because he was saying that that was at 645 that he said by to her. I mean, unless he killed her before that. And he's saying she's already been dead. But he then he claimed that the blood that was clotting around her

body in her head. He said that clotting indicated to him about two to three hours before that she was killed. Okay. So which one was it? Is it four hours? Because that's going to make her dead before Wallace left. Or is it two to three hours. Which is going to make it. Yeah. Like kind of a big variable here. Pretty big thing here. But he's just like, yep, that makes sense. Kind of like one of the biggest pieces of the pie that we need to solve the crime. And it seems like he just took that like two to three three, or four. I'm going to go with four. Like, that's just, and he said at least four.

That was his thing, at least four. It could have been more. He said at least four, but then said two or three. So at least what, motherfucker? It doesn't make sense. And he also, he becomes an issue too with blood spatter soon, which we'll see. He didn't do a good job. Now, the detective superintendent was supposed to be on scene at this point of the police,

and he was nowhere to be found. And by nowhere to be found, I mean, not only was he not on this. scene, but when they called and were like, hey, can he come here? His name was Hubert Rory Moore. They were like, yeah, we don't know where he is. We haven't heard from him. So they ended up finding him in a pub. Oh, no. And they dragged him to the scene. Oh, man. I feel like you should just like give him a cold shower first at least. Oh, yeah. The people that were there were like he was clearly drinking. He smelled about a ball. And he's like, it's like, well, my eyes up. And they were like, he definitely shouldn't have been dealing with this murder scene. That's for sure. Also, imagine seeing a

murder scene and I mean ever but in that state but in that state it's like and imagine being like in charge of that murder scene in that state I mean I maybe that would sober you up I would hope it did slightly at least but he came and was basically came in and was like shit and he just like looked at William Wallace and was like did you see anyone is he literally looked at him and said did you see anyone when you got here I mean like that was him literally being like I'm going to give this a shot did you see the murderer when you got here And maybe you just haven't said that to anybody yet. I'm going to go out on a limb and hope that you just didn't say that you saw the murderer when you got here.

I mean, but is that a crazy question? Because he was like, the door was bolted, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't. Well, and he was like, did you see anyone? And he was like, nope. And the Johnstons were like, nope, we didn't see anyone either. And he was like, okay, cool, cool, cool. He was like, now we got that. Let me think of my second question.

He's like, I'll be right back. So he goes back to the police station. And he, this is when he sent. he makes himself a hot cup of Joe. I'm pretty sure he was like, I need to take a cold shower right now. I need some coffee. But he sends a bunch of investigators to rooming houses, all-night cafes, tram stations, like lodging of any kind.

And he says, look for people that are just hanging out with bloodstained clothing. As they do after murders. Which I love that kind of police work. I love it. All right. Look for some people. I want you to fan out. I want you to look for a guy.

that is absolutely doused. Soaked in blood. And if you see that guy, what you'd bring in me? Like, okay. Okay, sir. Who would stay in their bloody clothes? You diggers.

So then he was like, all right, I got to go back to the scene. He's like, well, shit. This is when our wonderful Emmy is looking at the blood in the parlor. And he's like, okay, there's a lot of blood here. And at this point, they were like bloodstain and out. this is happening. So they were like, okay, we can do this. And they determined that she was likely sitting with her head. He said to her head, with her head to the side talking to someone. Sure. Which, wowy, you got all that? Yeah. So he said he was sitting. They think that he was

sitting, she was sitting on a chair, which was next to the fireplace. Okay. This is insane to deduce, but he did so because the marks they looked at were only about four feet in height. And they looked like what he referred to. They are not actually referred to as these, but in his report, he referred to these marks, these bloodstains, as soda water bottle marks. What? Apparently that's what he thought they looked like.

I don't know. What does that mean? Bottle marks. They were likely just, what I think is probably what they were, was elliptical blood spatter, which is like the elongated blood spatter. Okay. And they probably had like satellite trains. that made them look like exclamation points kind of.

Oh, okay, okay. Is he saying, like, if you, like, open a bottle of soda and it explodes and gets on your wall, that's what it looks like? I don't know. I don't know what that means. Like, it's a very interesting way to say it. I've never read it said that way otherwise, but who knows? The opium is telling him things. So these particular little, like, exclamation point kind of marks, they will help to show what direction the motion is moving in because the tails of those marks will point in the direction of the motion.

So the marks they saw were pointing to the easy chair, which had not a lot of blood on it. So that's kind of a void pattern, which does indicate that somebody was in that chair when it all happened. Okay. Because that's a void where there had to have been something there to stop the blood from spraying there. They said she was likely sitting in it or on the arm of it. Okay. Or at least near it or standing in front of it. And then do they look like exclamation points because when you like pull back?

That's so unfortunately that's a problem. He didn't account for cast off marks. Yeah. From blood flying off the weapon used. And those tails can help determine the motion again in that case. And you can count the amount of arc, which is when like they swing a weapon and it gets covered in blood. And then it keeps swinging. I just like slam it.

Yeah. And then it keeps swinging. And when they keep swinging back and forth, hitting the person, collecting blood on the weapon. And then drawing back. back, it forms arcs, an arc pattern. Yeah. And you can count how many arcs there are and see how many times that person was hit. But blunt objects. I hate to say that, but that's really fucking cool. It is cool. I love blood. You always have. You always have. I mean, it's crazy that you can do all that. I used to want to get like really into that. At one point, I was like, I want to be a blood spouter

analysis. And you probably will be like in a couple weeks. I said analysis analyst. But blunt objects can also cause like a pretty varied size pool of blood drops. So they think a blunt object was used to hit her. So that's going to change the kind of blood droplets too. And he wasn't accounting for any of this. And so the angle of blood spray matters too. So like a 90 degree angle hit will almost look circular. And as the angle decreases, it becomes more like it spines out. Like the circle will look like spiny. Okay. Outsides. And eventually, the circle on the wall. Yeah, like the circle splatter. The blood splatter. And as you move like so and then it kind of like as you decrease that angle, it's going to keep elongating into those exclamation mark kind of splatter. Sounds like so that's how

you can tell. That's how you can tell. But if it hit the wall at a certain angle and then dripped, that can mess with the appearance and make it look like a different type of. blood spatter or that it was a different impact location or angle. He just didn't account for any of this and just went and was like, exclamation point. That means one thing and one thing only. At that point, did they know that that it meant more things than that? They could definitely, they knew more. And it was more just a matter of like, you can't just look at that and be like, that's it. Yeah. Like you would know, and especially in the 30s, they knew that forensics and that this kind of science was highly variable and that you can't just look at something and be like 100% of the

time. That's what this means. So he worked super quick. He sketched some of these stains and like droplets. He like sat there and drew them. But I guess he drew them like really shitty and you can't even tell what they look like. Well at that point, why didn't you just take a picture? Yeah. And then he just, that's when he drops like, all right, so she's been dead for four hours. Boom. Nailed it. Like that's it. He also said Wallace was too calm at the. this point, too. He also mentioned that. So it's like, this dude, I'm like, get out of here. Yeah, like, shut up. I don't know. He's definitely, he has like small dick energy. Yeah, he just, I don't like him. He also at trial said that, um, he described Wallace as quote, two collected. Uh, and then he said,

whilst I was in the room examining the body and the blood, he came in smoking a cigarette, and he leaned over in front of the sideboard and flicked the ash into a bowl on the sideboard. It struck me at the time as being unnatural. Why is that unnatural? So like, because he's smoking? Like, he's chain smoking probably because he's having a fucking nervous breakdown. Yeah. And the dude smoked.

So it's like, I imagine that's just something he would do. Very normal thing to do in a, like, stressful situation is fucking pull out a square. Why is flicking ash unnatural to do when someone dies? Right. I had no idea that once someone ceases living, that your ash has to just remain attached to your cigarette. Why was that? What is he saying it's the way he leaned over him in Ash? I guess. But it's like, where the fuck else was he going to ash? And it's just like, can we just stop judging this guy after finding his wife with her head

bashed open? Like, I agree that when it's like coupled with other things, you can definitely take things from it. You can deduce, you know, judgment from it. Howdy said something weird. I feel like it's like he's getting shit on. Yeah. But, you know, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Now, more cops said that they were shocked. by his behavior as well. One said he was just sitting, stroking the cat at one point, and he said, quote, I didn't see any sign of emotion in him at all at the death of his wife. But again, right. Sometimes you're unemotioned because you're so, you're in chalk. I literally laugh at funerals. Yeah. Like, I will burst into laughing. I have seen that with my own eyes. I'm so incredibly

uncomfortable. And it's because I don't know what to do with the other kinds of emotions. So laughing is just the easiest thing. Well, and everyone can get in it, and I can imagine if it was like, so when you love so much. I can't even put myself in that. No, fuck that. I can't even think about that. So I don't know how I dact. He also like, you're comforting an animal and he's comforting her animal. That makes sense that he was sitting there petting the cat. It would make sense and she was very upset about the cat the night before. So it's like it makes sense that he would just be like, I'm just going to pet this cat because it came back. Well, that's also very comforting to pet a cat when you're stressed out. Now, meanwhile, they're all judging him, but they're all just like a bunch of bumble and crazies walking around this house. I know. I love that they're not judging the, fucking police chief who was at the bar. Now, no officer was really in charge at the time.

Like, the superintendent was, but like, he wasn't taking charge. No one is communicating what they're doing. So they're all just touching things and not recording things or recording things that the last one just disturbed and it's now in a different position. There's no chain of evidence? Absolutely none. It's mayhem in there. Bonkers.

And in fact, the cash box that had money missing out of it, had police, fingerprints all over it. So they couldn't even pull any other police. They couldn't pull any other fingerprints off of it. Well, shit. So immediately Wallace, they're all looking at him like he's the main suspect. The husband did it. So they start asking about the doors and the locks to him again. They're like, go over that one more time. Yeah. Because like that is weird. And he had said in that statement that the front door wouldn't open. So he went to the back and the back door wasn't bolted, but wouldn't open either. So we went back to the front and he said the front was now bolted. When they asked him about it now, they said that he tried the key in the front lock and it was a defective lock.

So they tried it and they said, yeah, it is a defective lock. It's like broken. So the key works, but you have to like, josh it. Sometimes it doesn't. Like it makes it wonky. So he never said again that that door was bolted. He never mentioned that again. Okay. So they were like, well, you said before that and he just wouldn't, he just like wouldn't acknowledge that again. Okay. So that's weird, that he's not being like, no, what's weird is I came back around and that door was bolted when it wasn't a second ago. Right. He never said that again.

Mm-hmm. And he just, like, had no explanation for that, which is weird. Yeah. Definitely weird. Because they were like, well, if that door was bolted when you came back around the front, you wouldn't have been able to unlock it either way, even if it wasn't wonky. Yeah, no matter what. That's an important piece of information.

But, again, maybe he was just in shock. Who knows? So then they ask him about the coat that she is lying on. Because they said earlier, you mentioned that that was your coat. And they were, so they wanted to kind of like coax more information out of them. So they were like, is this your coat that's here? And he didn't answer them. He just like sat there.

And so they were like, is it her coat? Mm-hmm. And he wouldn't say anything. That's weird. And they were like, okay. So they took this immediately as he knew he fucked up by using that coat and leaving it there and that he didn't want to incriminate himself. It's really not that weird for your own coat to be in your house on the floor, though. It's not. But I think maybe he was like, they're thinking that he's sitting there going,

oh, shit. Like, I've admitted multiple times that that's my coat that she's lying on. Who wouldn't think that that might like come back to bite you in the app? Yeah, yeah. Then they just picked up the coat before it was photographed to look at it. Yeah. It makes total sense. Cool, cool, cool. And when they were done looking at it, they just placed it back down as where it was. And they were like, that's where it was. He admitted again finally that it was his, and he said he left it on a hook in the hallway when he left that day. And he said, what happened was, he said, I was wearing that coat initially, but it's actually

nice out today. So I changed into a lighter coat, and I put that on the hook. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. Now, around 11 p.m., our good old Emmy, all of a sudden was like, wait a second. Hold up. Wait.

And he said, I'm in the upstairs bathroom, and I found a small clot of blood on the upstairs bathroom toilet rim. Bitch, like, she could have had her period. Let's be real. It was slightly streaked, and he said he was sure it was because the murderer had gone upstairs to wash up. This would obviously mean it was either Wallace, because he would be comfortable in his own home, or a really stupid murderer who hung out, hung around for a while, washed up upstairs, but didn't steal any of the goodies up there that were all stood up right in front of them. So likely Wallace, that's what it's really pointing to. It seems like everybody's trying to. It seems like everybody's trying to be like, whoa, shit!

Totally Wallace. So this could be true because these cops were bumbling as hell and could have missed this. Right. Because the Emmy said that the dim light in the bathroom may have caused a shadow on that clot and the clot was really dark, so it could have been obscured in that shadow and they wouldn't have seen it. Yeah. But multiple. Like a dozen cops were in it out of that bathroom over the course of the last couple hours, they could have easily accidentally transferred it there because there was no protocol that they were following it out. And they're all touching shit. And the ME could have transferred it up there. Who knows? There was no other blood in the house anywhere else. Right. So it's very unlikely that they traveled around the home after the murder

and didn't get blood anywhere else. Only on that one little speck. It doesn't make a lot of sense. So at near midnight, the police medical officer, Dr. Hugh Pierce, came, and he was going to be kind of a second set of eyes. He examined the body, and he said she had been dead for six hours. So now he's tacked on a couple more hours. So it agreed with the idea that she was dead when Wallace said he had spoken to her and said goodbye to her. So both of these are not saying that. But also are they just trying to do that to make the investigation easier? I don't know.

That's the thing. So now he is brought to the police station to make another statement. He is not under arrest. But of course, everyone is outside now. They're seeing all the commotion. So now everyone's seeing the scene and they're seeing him being led away. Rumors are starting to happen. Gossip is starting.

People are saying they saw him in handcuffs. He wasn't in handcuffs. He was just coming to do a statement. He was not detained. He was not arrested. Yeah. So during his interrogation at the police station, he said that Julia would not have opened the door.

to someone unless she knew them personally. Right. He was like, I know that 100%. And she said she always entertained people we knew in the parlor. And when he was asked if anyone could have gained entry into the house forcibly, they were like, do you know anyone that would have wanted to hurt you or hurt her? He said, you know what? I do know someone that could have done this.

And they were like, who? And he said it was a guy I used to work with at the insurance company named Richard Gordon Perry. And he said, Perry, the motive that he was. was thinking of was he said Wallace had confronted him several times about coming up short on his insurance collections. Like he would write down one thing and his money would be short like he was stealing. Yeah. And this happened a bunch of times. And he said Wallace had informed their boss and Perry was fired because of it. Okay. So that's a pretty good fucking motive. So he said Perry had been in his house before. So he knew the layout. And he said that he had actually been inside the house

because when Wallace was sick with kidney issues, he kind of took over his route. And so he was in the house to kind of give him all the lay of the land. And then he said he's actually been inside that cash box because he had to put the money in there after his rounds. Oh. So he said he's deposited money in that cash box. He knew it was there. And it would make sense that he didn't go in like her purse or upstairs. He was just going straight for the money he knew.

It makes sense. That does make sense. So Perry was brought in for questions. And without prompting, gave an alibi of being with his girlfriend the night the phone call was made to the chess club. And had he not been told about the phone call? Exactly. He also gave an alibi for the night of the murders. But it didn't ring weird to anybody in the police station that he just offered up an alibi for the night before without anyone asking him for it.

Well, and what does the night before have to do with anything? Exactly. Perry. So he's trying to say, I couldn't have made that phone call. Wasn't me. I wasn't Qualtra. Right. But it's like nobody knew that.

So it doesn't make sense. The police were probably like what phone call. And at this point, alibis are kind of moot, at least for the murder time, because this Emmy was playing. Didn't even know what it is. This Emmy was playing real fast and loose with forensics. So, yeah, I don't think we... Just say the least. I don't think we need to rely on that time of death so much.

But remember Perry later, because we are not done with him yet. And you are not done with him either. Perry, you know, we are done with? Part one. I knew it. Who boy. I don't know what to think. Let me tell you, it's only going to get

we're only going to confuse you more. Because in the next episode, we are going to talk a little bit more about Perry. And what's going on with him, it's going to make you think a little bit more about him being suspicious. Oh, yeah. We're going to talk about the trial and everything after. Obsessed.

Woo. All right. This case. Guys, that was quite a case. Quite a case. We hope you keep listening because we're going to come over. We're going to go over part two this week. We are. We're going to come over and we're going to go over. Part two. Part two. So yeah, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it. Weird. But not so weird that you don't know who killed your wife and you don't know what you're doing as a medical examiner or a police

constable. Bye. Take the rectal temperature. Everyone ever do that. Always do it. Always put the thermometer in your booty hole. Bye. Thank you.