Morbid - The Radium Girls

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

When Marie and Pierre Curie discovered radium in 1898, the chemical element was quickly adopted by manufacturers for its luminescent properties that would go on to be used in, among other things, the painting of clock faces, watches, and instrument panels, allowing them to be seen in the dark. At the time, the introduction of radioluminescent materials into manufacturing was hailed as a scientific solution to an age-old frustration, but it didn’t take long before that solution was shown to have terrible consequences. As a radioactive element, radium is highly toxic to humans, particularly when ingested or inhaled. While it seemed unlikely that anyone would ingest or inhale the radium used to paint a clockface, this fact posed a serious problem for the largely female factory workers whose job it was to paint the dials. These “Radium Girls,” as they would come to be known, not only spent most of their day in close proximity to the paint, but also employed a technique in which they frequently wet their paintbrushes with their mouths, consuming small amounts of radium in the process. Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, hundreds of young women working in at least three radium dial factories in the United States suffered deadly radiation poisoning as a result of working so closely with radium, all without any safety protocols and completely unaware of the dangers. After dozens of deaths, a group of factory workers successfully sued their employers for damages, exposing the widespread disregard for worker safety. While the suits were generally a major victory for the American labor movement, it was ultimately hard-won and little comfort to those who would die within a few years.Thank you to the incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research!ReferencesCamden Courier-Post. 1928. "Woman radium victim offers living body to aid in search for cure." Courier-Post, May 29: 1.eGov Newswire. 2021. "Menedez leads colleagues in introducing senate resolution to honor the lives and legacy of the 'Radium Girls'." eGov Newswire, June 26.Evening Courier. 1927. "Radium poison victims want damage suit limits raised." Evening Courier, July 19: 2.Galant, Debbie. 1996. "Living with a radium nightmare." New York Times, September 29: NJ1.Lang, Daniel. 1959. "A most valuable accident." New Yorker, April 24: 49.McAndrew, Tara McClellan. 2018. The Radium Girls: An Illinois Tragedy. January 25. Accessed July 8, 2024. https://www.nprillinois.org/equity-justice/2018-01-25/the-radium-girls-an-illinois-tragedy.Moore, Kate. 2017. The Radium Girls: The Dark Story of America's Shining Women. New York, NY: Sourcebooks.New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. n.d. Radium Girls: The Story of US Radium’s Superfund Site. Environmental Preservation Snapshot, Orange, NJ: New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection.New York Times. 1928. "Finds no bar to suit by radium victims." New York Times, May 23: 11.Prisco, Jacopo. 2017. "Radium Girls: The dark times of luminous watches." CNN, December 19.United Press. 1928. "Woman, dying by degrees, tells of symptoms of radium posioning." Courier-News, May 16: 6.—. 1928. "3 more are victims of radiun poisoning." Evening Courier, May 22: 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash, and I'm Elena. And this is morbid. Thank you for being a friend. Travel down the road and back again. Your heart is true. You're a pal and a confidon. And if you threw a party and invited everyone you knew, whoops, well, you would see the biggest gift

be from me and the card attached would say thank you for being a friend. R-Din-Din-Din-D-D-N-A-R-P, Betty White. I miss you so much. I'm very upset about it. Yeah. This is a blow. Yeah, 2021 just really had to say, fuck you. Yeah.

For the 400th time. But you know what? I feel like it's like Betty White was just, great for 99 years. 99 years. You know what? It's been great. I did it right. I did it on my terms. I did everything awesome. Yeah. And now, you know what? They're reunited. The golden girls. It's been real. It's been fun. But it hasn't been real fun. Yeah. So she was like, I'm out. Betty White was like truly America's sweetheart. Oh yeah. I have to read this tweet that I saw last

I don't know if you saw me retweet this. It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. Guy Branham, yeah, tweeted this. And he said, Betty White dying three weeks before she turned 100 is the final act of a final act of performer whose timing has always been sharp, always unexpected. And even with the warmest, and fuck, I keep messing it up. And even with the warmest of characters, always a little dangerous. No one else could live to 99 and so perfectly leave us wanting more.

It's so true. I sobbed. And so many people are. like Capricorn energy. Seriously. True Capricorn who left during Capricorn season. She left on her own term. She did.

But man, the world is a little darker now that Betty White is gone. I really is. I want to watch the proposal now. I just love her. And her voice is exactly my grandmother's voice. So every time I would hear her talk, it was like hearing my grandmother talk. They both had that very sweet, very, just like, just like warm voice. It's just something about their voice.

Like, you know, Rose on Gilmore Girls or Kilmore Girls School. Golden Girls is like that voice you hear that you're like, oh, Rose. St. Olaf. But yeah, we just had to, we had to give Betty a proper send-off. She outlived everybody on the Golden Girls and everybody on the Mary Tyler Moore show. I know. Drew told me that. That was a Drew factoid that.

I was like, wow. Isn't that crazy? But yeah, I think it was very appropriate for 2021 to end that way. Yeah. Because, fuck you, 2021. For real. And nobody claimed 2022. Nope. I'm not saying a damn word. All I want to do in January is clean and organized. Same. And moisturized for me. The end. And moisturized for you. I've been moisturizing. You have. I know. That's impressive. Thank you.

But yeah. So that's all we really wanted to touch upon. That was a big thing we wanted to talk about. A big sad. But I know everybody is very excited to hear part two of Ash's story here. And you're doing an amazing job, sweetie. And I haven't looked it up either. Everybody keeps saying they haven't Googled it. I hand to the wall that I love. Praise the wall. Praise the wall. Hand to the wall.

I have not Googled. So I don't know what's about to happen and I'm very terrified. You don't know what's about to happen. For all of these people involved. You have no idea. All right, let's do this. All right. So when I left you off in part one, which I also, I don't think I told people that this was

going to be two parts because a few people tweeted and we're like, it ended. and I was like, okay, so Russ is in prison? You're like, wait, so that's the end? And I was like, no, guys, I think I just forgot to tell you that I was too far. I think I put in the title part one. Hopefully I did. I'm sure you did. I'll double back.

Sometimes I don't read the titles of things. You know, I just listen. Again, it was the end of 2021. So maybe I didn't put it in there. It could have been me. Who knows? I'll take responsibility. You know what?

You guys are fine. Don't worry about it. It's fine. But when I left you in part one, Russ had just been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Wild. Pam Hop had gotten 100. $50,000 of Betsy's life insurance. Wow. Insane. Insane. I mean, I understand, I don't understand

why Russ got like life in prison yet because I just don't, I don't think the jury, I thought the jury was going to end up in a hung jury personally or like a mistrial of some sort. I understand why he was put on trial. I understand why there was some doubt either way. For sure. But to think that Pam got nothing but a life insurance payout is like really wild to me. It's cuckoonettes bananas. Yeah, truly. So part two, let's go. Let's do this. So one topic that kept coming up during RISIS, we're off to a great start.

We are. 20-22. Russ's trial was the life insurance policy and the fact that Pam was the beneficiary. So I said in part one, Russ's lawyer, Joel Schwartz, wasn't able to bring this up as a possible motive for Pam to kill Betsy. So I guess the jurors just kind of like didn't think of that possibility. And again, as I said in part one, most of these jurors, were just too struck by the number of stops that Russ made. Of course. And they literally can't figure that

into their decision, the Pam thing. So like even if they were struck by that, that whole notion and we're thinking that was a thing, they literally can't use that in the decision making. Because she has quote unquote, no direct connection to the case. They have to leave that out. So that's really hard. And then they paired that with what they believed to be the evidence against him. So it just made sense to them that he was the one who carried out this murder. Yeah. But one big, source of contention was that Pam had taken her sweet-ass time setting up the trust for Betsy's daughters. Because remember, in the beginning, Pam said, Betsy wanted me to be named the beneficiary because she was afraid that Russ would like spend it all. And her daughters were too young,

but I told her, I'll make sure they're taken care of. Yeah, by setting up a trust, they get it at a certain age. Exactly. Conditions. Exactly. Exactly. But so she wasn't setting it up like in leading up to the trial. So everybody was like, what is going on? Like, that doesn't make sense. So Joel Schwartz actually asked Pam, like, during a break, like, not in front of the jurors or anything, why it had taken her so long? Because at the point of the trial, it had been set up. But, like, leading up to that, it took forever.

So they were like, what was that about? So he was like, why did that take so long? And she told him her mother, Shirley, had actually passed away the October before this trial started. And she had passed away from Alzheimer's. Okay. A staff member at Shirley, Pam's mother, Shirley, her assisted living, had found her body in the grass below her third-story balcony. So they believed that she must have had some kind of accident watering the flowers on her balcony.

Oh, no. And, like, fell somehow, and she fell three stories down. Or some people thought maybe she jumped off and, like, she just didn't realize what she was doing because she was suffering Alzheimer's. That's horrible. It was really horrific. So when Schwartz got that answer, he was like, okay, like very valid reason. That makes sense. Holy, yeah.

He didn't press the issue. No. He was like, all right, cool. And he had an appeal to work on anyways because there was no way that he was going to let Russ sit in jail for a crime that he didn't think he was responsible for it. Yeah. I mean, that's his job. That is his job.

So while he was working on Russ's appeal in 2014, he found out that Betsy's daughters were actually suing Pam Hup for Betsy's life insurance money. Huh. Because even though Pam had set up a trust the week. week before Russ's trial. She set it up the week before. Betsy's two daughters had not received a penny from Pam. I'm shocked. And in all reality, there is recorded video of Detective Ryan McCarrick, the lead investigator on Betsy's case, telling Pam that it would really look better if she set

up that trust before the trial started. Wow. Yeah. It will really look better. Not this is the right thing to do because those are her children and they deserve. that trust, that is their money technically. Yeah, it would just be good for appearances. It would look good. You know, optics. That's really all we're looking for here. So she did.

She set it up one week before. She funded the trust with $100,000. But she knew exactly what she was doing. She had set up a revocable trust. And she got rid of it just a few weeks after the trial, emptying it and keeping the money for herself. Are you shitting me? She set up a revocable trust. She set up a trust just to rip it back.

She set up a trust so that it looked like she had during the trial. And then it was over. And she was like, cool. Wow. Like he's in prison. They're young. What a shit back. She's a horrible person.

And she thought they weren't going to do anything about it. Of course, exactly. So she had to explain that she revoked the trust to attorney David Bush during a deposition for the civil suit that she was now going through with Betsy's daughters. And something about that, or excuse me, everything about that. that sat wrong with him. Yeah? He was like, you revoked the, okay, okay, let's finish this up. Like, was there a reason that she gave for revoking it? She literally was like, it's my money. Like, don't you have to have a reason to revoke a trust? I don't know a lot about trust,

so I'm honestly not sure. I'm not sure either. You would think you would need a valid reason that like somebody would have to sign off on, but I guess. She probably just made one up though. She's fucking Pam. Wow. And she literally was like, so in the beginning she had said like, oh, like Betsy wanted me to take care of them. And then it slowly, actually very quick. turned into, no, Betsy wanted me to have the money. Like, that's my money. Yeah, it's mine. And I can do whatever I want with it.

Wow, you're a monster. Yeah, she truly is. So the attorney that was doing her deposition was like, no, something is really off about this whole situation. Duh. Yeah. So he called Russ's attorney Schwartz. So at that point, Schwartz had already filed an appeal for Russ's case.

And as soon as he got that call, he started working on a moon. motion. So a Mooney motion informs the court that there's new evidence for a judge to consider that might change the previous verdict. And just a little history on it. It was born after the 1935 trial of Mooney versus Hollahan in which a man named Thomas Mooney was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to death actually. Oh, damn. So he claimed that the state had intentionally suppressed evidence and that testimonies against him were knowingly false. Wow. Yeah. sounds a little bit familiar. It does, I would say. Yeah. And he argued, thank you for that history. Oh, we're not done. Oh, we're not even, but I just love that you're like introducing this.

This is nice. I was just like, oh, I want to know more about that mooney motion. I always love that stuff. I bet everybody else will too. Yeah. So he argued that because of this, his case did not receive due process. And because of that, that was a direct violation of his 14th Amendment right, which declares that all persons born in the U.S. are citizens and guaranteed equal protection of the laws. So his appeal was denied, actually. first on like a stupid technicality, but he was actually later pardoned in 1939 by a California governor Colbert Olson. Him.

Him. Yeah. In Missouri's history at this point, this new point, like where we are with Russ, a mooney motion had only ever been granted three times. Wow. When Joel Schwartz filed his, it became the fourth mooney motion granted in this state. Damn. Look at that.

Look at that. So Russ's case was remanded in February of 2015. And then nine months later in November of 2015, he actually waived his right to a trial by jury because he was like, that didn't go well the first time. And he decided instead to have a bench trial where one judge would rule on his fate. So prosecutor Leah Askey Cheney, remember her from part one? I do. She tried again to get a ruling that the defense would not be able to present Pam as a possible suspect, saying for the second time now that she had no direct connection to the case. Okay.

So unlike the first judge, who was Judge Chris Kunza Menemeyer from Russ's first trial, the judge this time around, who was Judge Stephen Omer, he wanted to hear about Pam's role in the case. So he denied this motion. Okay. Which it's also interesting to me that this prosecutor would say Pam has no direct connection to the case. That's what's wild to me. For like a myriad of reasons. But especially because Pam was like constantly going back to the police with new information about the case. So it's like she's very involved. She's very much involved. Very much. And I don't know if you guys remember, but she was one of the last people to see her alive.

I would call that a connection to the case. That's a pretty big connection. She also received a huge life insurance payout. I would also call that a connection. Well, that's the thing that I'm like, my brain won't even wrap around. It's like she is literally the person who has changed to be the beneficiary of a sizable life insurance plan. Four days before somebody died. Before she was murdered.

And we're just going to. No one has seen ID discovery. no one's watched oxygen here. I guess not. Like I would literally be like, have none of you, none of you have cable? Not Leah. Like none of you, not one of you has this? Like, why are we all pretending that that's not like red flag, red flag, red flag, red flag.

I don't know if like Pam like threatened her or something or like gave her a lot of cookies or like was like, I'll do your dry cleaning for the rest of your life. But it's very strange. There was some kind of direct connection between the two of them. Or they were just trying to win her side there. Yeah, exactly. That's probably what I want to say. It wasn't the cookies, probably.

Probably not, but now I want a cookie. I don't know. So Pam was constantly going back to the police with new information, specifically when she caught wind that Russ was going to be retried. She had all these flashbacks and memories. Oh, wow. It's convenient. So four months after Russ's case was remanded,

Pam went to the police and told them that, you know, she needed to tell them something that she hadn't before. She had a secret. She told them that she and Betsy had actually been involved in a sexual relationship together. Okay. They were lovers. Okay.

She said Betsy just loved her so, so, so much. And that even though Pam didn't identify as a lesbian, and she told Betsy, and I'm not a lesbian, like this can't happen, that she started to feel bad because she knew Betsy was dying. And it was, quote, a small, small thing to give her. Okay. I don't even know what to say about that. I literally don't have words.

Nobody did. She said that in those intimate moments, she, quote, replaced what a husband would be. And the investigators, they really seem to believe, Pam, and like almost patted her on the back for this, saying, that was just the problem solver in her. That's a direct quote. They literally were like, that's the problem solver in you. What? Who are these people? Pretending to be a lesbian is the problem solver.

What? That seems chaotic. Did everyone collectively slam their head into a wall? all at once. Like, what is going on? They all pressed an incorrect key all at once. This is truly wild. So if they did believe her, they were the only ones because Pam's acquaintances had literally described her as, quote, the most homophobic person they had ever met. Yeah, you think? Just the way she described that, I was like, wow, okay. Like, what the fuck? Yeah. And on top of that, Betsy's friends knew that if anything like that had happened, they would know about it. They were like,

we talked about like stuff like that all the time. She would have told us, like, whatever. Yeah. So they were shocked that Pam was going this far with her stories now. But this was all part of an elaborate scheme to make Russ look like not only a shitty person, but a violent man as well. Because she told the police one night, Russ came home and found her and Betsy together. And that when he saw them together, he flipped out. He grabbed hold of Pam, shoving her up against a wall and told her, quote, if you ever come over here again, it'll be the last time. if you two fucking muff bumpers, if I ever catch you guys again, I'm going to bury you in the backyard.

I'm very uncomfortable by all of this. And it's like you're making this so gross. Like that's, you're taking this into such a, like a dark place. Such a yucky level. And like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? I think this is the weirdest offense. Like, because it's like you.

And also, if you're a known homophobic. you think that's going to work. And you're going to sit like, you're evil. Like what the fuck? She is pure evil. She also told investigators. And this is a dead woman who can't have any say in this. Well, that's like...

Can't have any way of saying whether this is true or false. And the way you're talking about it is so fucking disrespectful. It's incredibly disrespectful. And if, which I don't believe that to be true in any way shape or form. Just because of the way that she presented it and the reason on which that she decided. She basically said she was like, well, I pity fucked her. Yeah. She literally said that.

that's so disrespectful and so fucked up to say about somebody who has no way of defending themselves. Exactly. No, it's just like so fucked up. So she also told investigators that, you know, she forgot to tell them the first time around. Yeah. Because she had so many memory problems. Yeah, that's a big one to forget. Well, oh, no, this is a different thing. She said she forgot to tell them this other thing the first time around because of those memory problems that Betsy was actually planning on leaving Russ that night. Oh, it's crazy. She just, oh, I remember now. And remember your first. Something big was happening.

Remember your first interview with police where you said, like, I didn't know them that well. And like, yeah, they had some marriage problems. But like, oh, and then actually that whole like pillow thing happened. But now she was planning on leaving him. Yeah. That would have been a big piece of the case the first time around, I would think. And Bobby Wan, if you remember her from part one, she was the friend at the chemo appointment. Exactly.

She used to babysit Betsy. She said that that could not be further from the truth. because Betsy had actually recently told Bobby that she wanted to move with Russ to her parents' home. So she wanted to move with him somewhere else and leave him entirely. No. I think Pam knew that they had had marriage problems in the past and she was praying upon that. Of course. Which is so fucked up.

Of course. Because they had also gotten back together, gone on this beautiful celebration of life thing. He was like a good husband who arranged for her to swim with the dolphins because it was a lifelong dream. It's like, shut up, Pam. Shut up, Pam. So finally, she didn't shut up. The last information that she came forward with before Russ's second trial started was that, and this was just a month before it was set to begin, she told investigators,

another new memory had struck her. She had seen Russ the night of the murder. And he was sitting outside of he and Betsy's home in a silverish car with another man who she couldn't see very well. Oh, wow. And she said that he must have seen her too because he ducked down in his seat very quickly when he saw her. She had already said multiple times that she had not seen Ross at the scene, and she had already

gone back and forth previously about what kind of car had been parked in the driveway that night because they had two cars. She said it was either a silver Nissan Maxima originally that was in the driveway or a blue SUV. I can see how you could confuse those too. Silver sedans get mistaken for blue SUVs all the time. It's this weird phenomenon. Every time I see one, I'm like, was that?

Oh, no, no. It's the other one. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But now she was saying, no, no, it must have been the blue SUV that was parked in the driveway because I saw Russ in that silver car outside when I was leaving. Yeah, that makes sense. This is like one of those candles that have the hidden gems in it and like you just light it and you just watch them all go.

And it's like every once in a while, Pam's wick goes down and she's like, I have another one. Whoop. Here's another one. Yeah. She literally said that she had the brain of a boxer, like a fighter. Like, yeah. Yeah. And they were like, well, you know, like that does make sense because sometimes when traumatic

things happen, people do repress memories, which is true. Absolutely. But like, like this. This is a little far-fetched. This is a very convenient suppressing of memories. A convenient and very convenient uncovering of memories. And yeah, I was going to say, like the timing is very convenient for you to just have this myriad of epiphanies.

I really like the word myriad lately. I don't know if anybody's noticed. Myriad is a great word. I like it a lot. It has a nice mouth feel to it. It does. It does. But anyways, while all that was going on, Joel Schwartz was catching wind of this all and he's like, awesome. This is going to be a fun trial. He's like great. But at the same time, he was receiving a whole slew of new information regarding this case. First and foremost, he learned that, hey, those 132 photos that an officer testified never developed, they did develop and somebody anonymously sent them to him. Huh, weird. Weird. That never happens,

especially not in Arkansas recently. Yeah, so crazy. So weird that people just lie about this shit. This is like shockingly. Yeah. Comparable. Yeah. Never developed.

Oh, wait, they did. That this isn't going to come out eventually. Exactly. Well, and it was, they did develop, but they didn't paint the picture that the prosecution had hoped for. Oh, really? Crazy. Because instead, they showed a very slight luminescence where they said there was like crazy

amounts of luminescence. And the thing about that is luminescence doesn't. It doesn't even necessarily have to be from blood. It could have been like the luminal reacting with other substances on the floor. Yeah. And it can be various biological fluids that it can light up. Yeah, you know. And Lee, I was like, you know better than I do.

But Leah Askey Cheney said in the first trial that Russ had done this extensive cleanup after he had killed Betsy. But this time around, a crime scene investigator testified that when she was on the scene, there was no sign of cleanup. The floor was still dirty. Yeah, and especially like a crime scene investigator, they know what cleanup looks like. Of course they do. That's literally their job. They go to crime scenes all the time. Like if it's still dirty, there was no cleanup. And that meant that the luminal absolutely could have been reacting with a different substance on the floor because the floor hadn't been cleaned recently. Yeah. They're like that day at all. And for that very reason, it made sense that the photos only showed a

slight luminescence. Hello. Now that same crime scene investigator testified that the blood on the switch in the bedroom. In her opinion, it was made by some kind of bloody towel because in looking at the print, there was a texture to it. It didn't look like a smear made by like fingers. It looked like a towel had touched that. Okay. Sounds like somebody didn't want to leave their fingerprints on the switch and Russ wouldn't have to worry about that because his fingerprints already would have been on that switch. Yeah. She also said that to her, it looked like Russ's slippers had been dipped in blood because again there weren't any prints that made it look like he was walking around after stepping in blood and you can see a picture i don't know if you looked last time the blood is really

only on like the top and the side of them there's not really any blood on the out souls which is like the bottom of your shoe like it's just and it just kind of looks weird like it doesn't look like blood splatter yeah it almost looks like like somebody did it on purpose like it looks like it was placed there yeah that's what i thought yeah now then there was the document that pam had been insistent the investigators track down. So they ended up finding it on Betsy's computer. For context, the document was pretty much word for word, the account that Pam remembered the morning she was questioned, and I'll read part of it to you. Quote, I know we talked about this yesterday, but I feel I really need you to believe me. I really do feel that Russ is going to do something

to me. He continued to tell me how much money he would make after I die. Last night was the worst. I fell asleep on the couch while watching TV. I woke up to Russ holding a pillow over. my face. He said that he wanted me to know what dying feels like. I need to change my life insurance. Do you think I could put your name and you could help my daughters when they needed it? Oh, so they did, she did want you to help them. Yes. If something happens to me, would you please show this to the police? So yeah, that does not look good for Russ. The fact that they found that document on Betsy's computer. That does not look at at all. There are so many problems associated with this document though. Okay. Because in part one, I said originally Pam called this document

an email, but then she quickly changed the wording. And everybody was like, that was a little weird. Yeah. So Joel Schwartz brought in an expert who found that while this document was open on Betsy's computer, so was Microsoft Outlook, that email app that just like comes on your computer. Betsy didn't use Outlook. So when the words were copied and pasted into the Outlook to send off as an email, it never went through.

Oh, okay. This was also the only document on Betsy's laptop with an unknown author listed. And a fragment of the email was associated with Microsoft Word 97, which Betsy didn't have installed on her computer. Oh, okay. So basically, if you're not catching my drift, it seemed like somebody had written part of this email on their own computer and finished it up on Betsy's computer, thinking that they were sending themselves an email that they could later use to show Russ was a terrible person during Betsy's murder trial. And to drive that point home even further, Betsy's laptop showed that it had been pre-examined. connected to a Wi-Fi named the club, and it was connected to that Wi-Fi on a day where Pam was

watching Betsy play tennis. So maybe she said to Betsy, hey, can I use your laptop for like, blah, blah, and Betsy was like, sure, I'm playing tennis. And Pam probably tried to email herself from Betsy's computer. To prove that theory one step further, there were cookies on Betsy's laptop that showed for a search of her own signature. Huh. Why would she search for her own signature when she writes it with her hand? Exactly. That doesn't make any sense.

And the cookies blocked that search. So whoever was looking for this wasn't able to find her signature. Wow. Like what? Wow. And just the fact that they were able to find all this is like really fascinating to me. I know. Like computer forensics are really interesting.

Yeah, it's really fascinating. But then there was another document, not linked to any of the suspects in the case. but maybe to a certain prosecutor working on said case. Oh, Leah Askey Cheney. Oh, I'm shocked. Right before the second trial started, Schwartz got a copy of this email from somebody anonymously. It looked like it was an email, and he received this anonymously. This was an email between Lincoln County's captain of investigations, Mike Lang, and Lincoln County prosecutor Leah Askey Cheney.

The email, which was from Lang, was romantic in nature, and said, quote, This is not a puppy dog crush on the hot girl in high school kind of love. Oh my God. I'm out. This is an epic. Shit stories are written about kind of love. I will do my best to be everything you need. I hate that. Yeah, I hate it here.

I hate that. I literally hate it here. That is so gross. Yeah, penis. Sorry. Gross. So Jeanette Cooperman, who wrote the article that I linked in part one, that she wrote an amazing piece for this. She pointed out that it was Mike Lang who had never.

mapped out Russ's cell phone data or gotten pams. Was this intentional to be everything that Leah Askey Cheney needed him to be? Oh yeah. I would say so. Probably. He just laid it out there. Leah Askey Cheney was like, that's a doctorate email. Okay. Okay. So we'll get a little bit more into that later because there's a little more on that. Oh, I'm interested. Yeah. So all of this new information in the case led Judge Stephen Omer to his decision. And on November 6th, 2015, Russ was acquitted. Whoa! Was acquitted.

Look at that. And the judge said that the investigation carried out by Lincoln County investigators was quote unquote rather disturbing. It was rubbish. Was rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It was garbage. That's wild.

Yeah. So with that, Russ was free to go. But this story is far from alpha. In 2016, he actually sued the prosecutors and the detectives on the case for, quote, unquote fabricated evidence, ignoring and ignoring exonerating evidence, and failure to investigate the other obvious suspect. He got a $2 million settlement. Wow. But justice still had not been served. No, it has not. Pam Hup was still walking free and that made him, him. That made him. That made him. That made him. And his lawyer incredibly uneasy. Yeah, me too. Same zies. So Schwartz

contacted the U.S. Attorney's Office and was like, please review this case now that we had the wrong person prison and we need to get the right person behind bars because I'm afraid if we don't somebody else is going to die for sure so Pam Hupp stayed quiet and out of the years of police for about nine months but then nine months uh nine months but then on the afternoon of August 16th 2016 she called 911 saying that police needed to come out right away because a man was breaking into her house so there was two 911 call. She's like running into the house in one of them. And then in the second one, she's screaming saying that the man is running toward her. She's barricaded in her bedroom. And then the 911 operator, here's five gunshots. And Pam tells her that she shot the man as he was making

his way toward her. So the 911 operator says, do you like, do you have any idea who this person is? And she says, I have no idea. So the police arrive unseen and they find an unidentified man lying on the floor just outside of Pam's bedroom door. He didn't have any identification on him, but he did have $900 in his pocket, along with a pen and a note that seemed to be some kind of instructions. Some of the things in the note were, quote, go to Pam's house, get Russ's money, take Pam back to woodpile behind Russ's house. What? So the whole situation was bizarre, to say the least. What? Bizarre. To say. Walk into Roe. Please walk into room.

Take this. Blah blah. Blotty blah. Wood pile. So they were like, okay, like you're going to need to come down to the station with us because this is rather confusing. Because this is strange and unusual and I don't know what to do. Absolutely.

I love the station. I love the station. I live there. So she explained to them that she had been out shopping earlier in the day. And then as she was pulling into her driveway, the silver car pulled up. And a man got out from the passenger side. And then the car sped away into the day. but that the man who got out of the car got into her car wielding a knife.

I don't know. And he said that he needed to get Russ's money. And while he said it, he looked back behind his shoulder. And at that moment, Pam said she was able to knock the knife out of his hand and run inside to go call 911. Wow. And she was such a hero, like such a final girl. Wow. She ran back to her bedroom.

And as she called 911, she got her gun out for protection. Confusing why she didn't just lock the door behind her. But hey, call me crazy. You know, chaos. Chaos. The man, she said, came back inside with the knife and started making his way toward her. And this is when she just started pulling the trigger until she couldn't anymore, until she emptied out the gun. Okay.

So when asked what she thought this was all about, she told investigators that she believed this man was looking for the life insurance money that she had got when Betsy died. She was basically trying to say that this man who broke into her car and then her home was a hired hitman, most likely hired by Russ to get the money he believed was his. which it's also like so okay like very cool that you're like I know exactly why this happened exactly let me lay it out for you yes and then too like I nobody believes you have that in cash just lying around your house no like I don't know a lot of people that would be like she probably has all of that exactly just lying on a table I also don't know like I don't know a lot about hitman personally I don't either but I don't know if they like bring their money with them that they get like usually they have to do the hit first.

He got paid, put it in his pocket. And then just like went out to do it. And did the hit with that money in his pocket? Yeah. I mean, unless it was like some kind of like down payment to secure him as a hitman. But even that, it's like wouldn't you take that out of your pocket and like put in your wallet or something and like leave it in your car? Probably. I don't know if you keep that like right in your pocket as you're doing the hit.

But again, I don't do hits and I don't know a lot of people who do. No, no. Me. I don't know any people. So I don't. I don't know if you keep it. it in your pocket when you do that? But to me, it seems risky. Yeah, seems risky. And also, it was in a plastic bag. So it was $900, um, a pen and this note in a plastic bag in his pocket.

So neat and tidy. Neat and tidy. Very neat and tidy. So while a couple of investigators talked to Pam to figure out what the fuck was going on here, because she knew. She was like, I know exactly what's going on here. Yeah. She was like, you don't need to investigate this. Like, I investigated it. Case closed. Don't, don't buy. Like, got it. So while they were talking to her, a couple of other investigators assigned to the case, had to figure out who this guy was because he didn't have any identification. So they were able to fingerprint him and ID him as Lewis Gumpenberger. Okay. Louis Gumpenberger was 33 years old.

He was the father of two children. His friends and family said that he was like the funniest guy who just loved to make people laugh and that even though he was no longer with the mother of his children, the two of them worked together seamlessly to co-parent. And like, he doesn't sound like a hitman. No, definitely not. Okay. Lewis loved his kids and would have done anything for him, or for them.

So the investigators quickly learned that his mother Margaret, who he lived with, had reported him missing. He hadn't shown up for a job interview that he was scheduled for, and she noticed also that his wallet and cigarettes were still at home. And he never left home without those or without leaving her a note, telling her where he was going. So the investigators had to go out to her house and deliver the news that he had been killed. And when they explained this whole situation that led to his death, his mom

was appalled. And she told the investigators that there was no way he could have ever broken into somebody's house and done something like this. She said he quote unquote couldn't even hold a spoon. Oh no. Because back in 2005, he had been in a really bad car accident and suffered a traumatic brain injury that left him with a ton of damage to his body. He had trouble walking, running, and even talking. So at first, the police were stumped about what the hell was going on here. But then they a call from the St. Charles County Police, and they were informed that they should speak with a woman named Carol Alford, who had reported an interesting incident that sounded like it might have been linked to this, and that incident had happened four months before. So Carol was home one day, and she was

outside with her dog when this black SUV pulls up in front of her house. Now, the woman inside asked Carol if she babysat, which Carol was like, what? And she said, no, I don't. And actually, her direct quote was Knobich. Which I was like Carol for the win. She was like, I don't babysit. And the woman in the car quickly changed the subject. And she was like, oh, I'm sorry, I should introduce myself. I'm so and so.

I'm a Dateline producer. Now, at this point in time, Dateline had already did a couple of specials about Betsy's murder. Oh, wow. I think they've done five in total. And at this point, I believe three were already out. So this Dateline producer told Carol that they needed somebody to record a soundbook. for their show, it was going to be a reenactment of a 911 call.

And if Carol wanted the job, there would be a thousand dollars cash in it for her. So Carol was like, okay, no, like something is super weird about this. But she said that the comment the woman had made about babysitting stuck with her. And she was worried that this lady was trying to do something in the neighborhood to like hurt kids. Like she was like, why did she say something about babysitting? Yeah, that's weird. So she was like, I want to know what she's up to.

So she brought her dog in. for her. I know. Carol's a bad bitch. Wow. She also, risky. I'm scared for you, but like, what a hero. Yeah. Also, weird link. Carol had beaten cancer a couple of times. Wow. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Sometimes the universe, man. I know. I actually just got chills saying that even though I all need to do. It just knows what to do. It really does. So Carol brings her dog inside. She grabs a pocket knife and hides it in the sleeve of her hoodie. And she also dialed 911 and just like left it dialed. Didn't call yet. Carol watched Dateline. Carol knew what the fuck was up. She knows.

So she hops in the SUV with the blonde producer lady claiming to be from Dateline. The woman said that they were going to this certain area where they had rented a house to use for production purposes. But when she said the area that they were headed to, Carol all of a sudden felt the hair on the back of her neck stand up because she knew this area. And she knew full well that there were not any houses in that area. Oh, no. Oh, I'm so worried for her.

Like, don't ever do this. anybody. No, like, amazing that Carol did. Like, yeah, I'm glad that this happened as part of the story, but, but, whew, so scary. So at this point, she's trying to be quick on her feet and figure out how to get the hell out of that car. And that's when she looked down and realized that she actually wasn't wearing any shoes. Oh, man. Because this all happened so quickly. Yeah. So she asked the woman to turn around and head back to her house. She's like, I have to grab my shoes. And the lady's like, no, you don't need shoes. Like, we're just going to this house. Like, whatever. And she was like, no, I need shoes. Okay, well, I also didn't lock my door. So,

I need to go back, turn around, and I'll do your sound bite after. So at that point, the quote-unquote producer turned around and headed back to Carol's place. So Carol went inside pretending to lock the door. And in the back of her mind, she knew that her security camera was getting a good look at this car parked outside waiting for her. Nice. Capturing the license plate and all. Wow, Carol.

And she said she did it on purpose because she wanted to make sure that her camera got the license plate in case this lady ended up kidnapping her. Wow. I'm obsessed with Carol. Carol Alford in case you're Googling it right now. Man, I am. So Carol's inside like, okay, what the fuck am I going to do? Like this lady's sitting outside. She's waiting for me. Something fishy is going on here. So she goes back outside and she pretends to be on the phone. And she told the woman, I'm sorry, I can't go back and do the sound bite with you. I'm on the phone with my son's school. He's sick and I have to go pick him up. Wow. Quick on her bare feet. Look at, yeah, those feet, man. So the woman tried to argue with her and was like, no, it's fine. Like, this is going to be so quick.

Like, you just have to come. And she was like, lady, I got to get my kid. Yeah, like my son is sick. Get out of here. So at that point, as she's talking to this lady, Carol notices that this lady glances up. And she quickly goes, you have security cameras and yeats her head back into her vehicle. She goes, you have cameras? And Carol goes, uh-huh.

Is that a problem? She goes, uh-huh. And I have a knife. And I have 911 dialed on my phone. And I'm about to call. so maybe you should dip, bitch. Not a direct quote, but I did get really into it for a second there. And you know what?

I feel like Carol has that energy. And I love it. She does. She absolutely does. She did. She did answer that like babysitting question with Nah bitch. No bitch. The best. That's what?

No bitch. So wild. The producer that I'm sure you all know by this point is Pamela Hup. Yeah. Speeds away into the day. And Carol calls 911. But they're like, ah? Like, they're working on it.

Yeah. So upon hearing that wild tale, the police working this whole investigation with Pam's home and Lewis are able to put two and two together, especially after getting the license plate that Carol's security camera picked up. Because not only did the woman inside bear a strong resemblance to Pam Hup before she eeded her head back inside the car, but the 2016 GMC Acadia was registered to a business that Pamela and her husband owned together. Ah, look at that. And in addition to that, police were able to determine that the serial numbers on four of the bills that were found in Lewis Gumpenberger's pocket sequentially matched with the serial number of a $100 bill that Pam had. Wow. Investigative work. It actually happened sometimes.

I was just going to say it's crazy how it's like just slingshotted from one end of investigative skills to the other. Yeah, because this is a different police department. This is a different department. Exactly. Wow. Like some, some do a great job. They do. Some kill it.

Yeah. Double it. So clearly Pam had set this entire thing up. She had been strolling the streets, trolling the streets, both for at least four months looking for a victim to make it look like Russ was using his newfound freedom to take a hit out on her.

That is so scary. Yeah. And so, like that's so much commitment to this. That's so much like malice of forethought of this whole thing. Like that is, yeah. Wow. And imagine being Carol and like knowing that you were the intended victim. And then when that didn't work, she somehow became acquainted with Lewis Gumpenberger.

And obviously we already know that she's a disgusting monster. But Lewis's family and friends confirmed what a monster Pam really was because they said it was clear that when you spoke to him, he had some kind of mental impairment. Wow. She's a fucking piece of shit. She's disgusting. Like, as if we didn't know that before. And this piece about, um, so in the note it said like bring Pam to the woodpile behind Russ's house.

Yeah. Russ, so they'd have to tell Russ, obviously, that this is going on. Yeah. And he's like, I don't have a woodpile behind my house. Like, what the fuck she's talking about? Like, what fucking woodpile? Oh, what fucking woodpile? He was like, my dad has a woodpile at his house.

So he goes and tells the neighbors, or he goes and tells his dad, and he finds out that his dad's neighbors have security cameras. They caught Pam going one way down the street and quickly the other way down the street. So she knew that he had a fucking woodpile. His father had a woodpile at his house. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Like she was so fucked up, but like doing some like investigative work on her own to make sure she could like get away with this. The planning this took. She laid her head on her pillow every night knowing what she was doing. Wow. Yeah. What an evil snake. What an evil snake. I did not see it going this far.

So on August 23rd, one week after Pam shot Lewis Gumpenberger to death, she was arrested at her home. Good. She immediately requested to speak with an attorney. Wow. Sure. So when they brought her to the station, they read her her rights and they had her sign off on some paperwork, recognizing, you know, like relating to her arrest.

And then the two officers left her in the interrogation room. So there's footage of this. It shows her grab a quick sip of water from a water bottle that they left her, but they also left a pen on the table. And slowly and very carefully, she takes that pen off the table and tucks it behind her back, presumably like in her pocket or maybe in her pants. And then she says, can I go to the bathroom? So they have a female officer bring her to the bathroom. And while she's in the bathroom, she attempts suicide by repeatedly stabbing herself in the neck and both wrists with a pen. A pen.

Okay, I saw a mugshot of her with like bandages on her neck and I've been waiting for the explanation. Holy shit. Yeah, and if you want to Google it, there's pictures of her injuries and they are the most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life. Oh, no. I was like, what a way to try and go. Oh, my God. Oh, no. So she was able to be saved and quickly was placed on suicide watch upon.

arriving in jail where she belonged this entire fucking time. And the officers obviously took this suicide attempt as a consciousness of guilt and her bail was set at $2 million. Yeah, I would say that's a good indication. Along with literally every other shred of evidence that you have against her. Correct. So originally during her indictment in 2017, she pleaded not guilty. But then upon learning that the state was seeking the death penalty, she entered an Alford plea in June of 2019. Whoa. Yeah. Weird. right? I need you going to do that West Memphis 3. Whoa. So in taking the Alford plea in case you're not sure what that is, you recognize that

the state has enough evidence to convict you of a crime, but you're able to maintain your innocence. Yeah. Whether that's in or out of prison. Obviously, she was going to be in prison. But at the point where she took the Alford plea, and the reason why she took it is because it took the death penalty off of the table. So she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for the murder of Lewis Gumpenberger. Wow. Now, A couple of more skeletons in Pam's closet came out during the trial, specifically her mother's suspicious death back in October of 2012. Yeah, I was going to ask about that. I'm going to tell you about it.

Okay, good. So during Russ's original trial, Pam was maintaining her innocence and saying that she would really have no motive to kill Betsy for life insurance money because she was the beneficiary of her mother's life insurance policy. And she told the investigators, quote, I really hate to say it. If I wanted money, my mom's worth half a million that I get when she dies. My mom has dementia and doesn't half the time know who we are. She's been living alone in a condo. And I know that sounds really morbid, TM, and stuff like that. But I am a life insurance person.

If I really wanted the money, there was an easier way than trying to combat somebody else, Betsy, that's physically stronger than me. I'm just saying. Yeah, you know what? That helped. Yeah. That helped with your plea of innocence. Yeah, I told, yeah. Okay.

I could just kill my mom if I wanted to him. She also said that she could have killed her husband because he had a life insurance policy. And she also said like, well, my son has a life insurance policy and I know that I get that money if he dies. Like, do I want him to die? No, but I get the money if he does. Yeah, all of this are things that normal people say. So yeah, absolutely.

She also said. I feel like, this is very much helping your case. Thank you. They were like, do you have life insurance? And she goes, no, I don't believe in it. Yeah, no. I don't believe in it. I don't believe in it.

I don't believe in it for me. Absolutely. But I believe that other people should so I can profit off of their murders and deaths. Thank you. Correct. Yes. Okay, wow. Okay, Pam.

So she said that during the first trial. Yeah, keep talking, Pam. And then her, like, her mom had died. Yeah. So cool. So Shirley had been in the hospital before she died and was complaining of back pain, so she was being treated for that. So on October 29th, she spent the night at Pam's house,

and then Pam brought her back to her assisted living on the 30th of October. And she told the coordinator of the home that Shirley wouldn't be at dinner that night. She would be because she was on medication for her. back that made her really tired. And she probably wouldn't be at breakfast the next morning, but that she should definitely be present at lunch. And if she's not present at lunch, go, go check on her. And there, the family, like, because Pam had a brother, too. She had like a couple of siblings, but I think her and her brother kind of like worked together to take care of her mom. And they had a policy in place where if Shirley didn't show up to any of the meals that the family was to be

called. Okay. But they weren't called that day because Pam had told them she's not going to show up. Yeah, conveniently. Yeah, crazy. So when Shirley didn't show up for lunch like she was supposed to, one of the attendants at the home went to check on her. And like I said earlier, they found her body lying in the grass beneath the balcony and she was still wearing her pajamas. Oh, that hurts my heart in every way. She had fallen three stories down. So four of the metal balusters, is that how you say that?

Yeah, I think that is how you say it. So four of them on her patio were dented out, which made a three foot square opening. in the balcony. And two of them had broken off completely and were laying next to Shirley's body. Okay. So when the autopsy was completed, she had eight times the usual dose of Ambien in her system. Oh, come on. Yeah. Come on. But because she was suffering from Alzheimer's at the time of her death, they thought, you know, maybe she forgot how much she took and ended up taking way more. Yeah. And she accidentally slipped off the balcony. So at first, the medical examiner did rule her death in accident. But years later, when everything came out about Pam in her case, the death was actually

changed to undetermined. Really? So far, Pam hasn't been charged with anything relating to her mom's death, but it's definitely important to note that she was one of the beneficiaries of her mother's life insurance, and that was clearly her M.O. And ultimately, she did not get the money she thought she was going to get because her mother's policy was split between all of the children. And she had a policy in place that was designed to pay for funeral expenses. So Pam only ended up getting $3,589. Wow. And she was like, I get half a million. If I really wanted to. My mom's worth half a million and I'm her beneficiary. Not the only one. Just the, I was looking at like the scene, like just the photos of the balcony and everything. And also like her mom. Horrible. Like so precious. So

like she's such a precious looking lady. Yes. And like. I just, I can't stop thinking about her falling like that. Doing that. To your mother. Like I can't. Like that is so beyond any kind of, uh, she's a monster. And we can't say that she did it because it's actually not being investigated right now. That's really crazy.

Like it's not an open investigation. I don't know if maybe they're trying to finish up with other stuff that I'm going to tell you about in a minute and then move on to that. Like maybe it's like one piece at a time. It's like the, like, Betsy, who's fighting breast cancer and, like, terminal breast cancer and trying to live out her last days the best she can. Yep. And it's like, and then, like, someone with a traumatic brain injury, like, Lewis, who, like, did nothing. Did nothing wrong.

And was just going to scoop Carol off the fucking sidewalk, walking her dog. Yep. Like, what the fuck? She doesn't give a fuck. She has no regard for human life whatsoever. And she's just trolling around finding anybody. she knows it's wow yeah it doesn't even matter who it is so another amazing thing though that happened once the right person was behind bars was that betsy's case was finally reopened good and pam

was officially charged with her murder yes on july 12th 2021 whoa so the lincoln county prosecutor working on the case now is great his name is mike wood and he said that they will be seeking the death penalty for betsy's case wow he said quote and it's so funny sometimes you just like walk me into this shit. Oh, I'm glad. Like you set it up so perfectly. It's a sister thing and just like, woo. It's really a woo. He said, quote, one of the aggravating factors were obviously able to rely on with the death penalty was that she murdered for the insurance money. But I will specifically say this case struck very deep into our souls and into our consciousness with a level of depravity not regularly seen. What I can say is that we have a person who not only murdered her

friend, then mutilated the body, staged the scene, testified against an innocent man. And then once she was acquitted, excuse me, once he was acquitted, went back and murdered somebody in St. Charles County to prevent herself from being considered a suspect. I can't pick a case more depraved than that. It's so, it's the length she was going to. Unreal. Just to get a life insurance, but like, like, I know money like is the root of all evil. I know that, but like, damn. But it's like she also had a business with her husband where they were like flipping houses and like, like, she like make your own money. Don't kill people because they have money. Well, and she honestly.

And like, they didn't even have money. You can tell her evil. Like, you know some people the evil see itself? And it starts changing their features and shit. Because you can see that picture. There's a picture of her with her mom, like early, like, obviously before everything. Yeah. And she looks like a pretty like normal looking woman.

Just like whatever. You see her later and you're like, holy shit. The mugshot. That she has like the bandages around her neck. The evil has totally seeped out. She looks evil. It's truly something. And her in court and shit, like she looks evil.

A scary, scary person. She's terrifying. Wow. And Mike said of the investigation, quote, this was the poorest example of investigative work I or members of my team have ever seen. Yeah. It was driven by ego and a prosecutor who was working toward an agenda rather than the truth.

Which is so sad. Yeah. Like we're supposed to put our full fucking trust in these people and shit like this happens. Yep. Where egos come into it and biases come into it. Like, no. The system is so fucked. Your literal job is to be unbiased and check your fucking ego at the door. And guess what? Mike Wood is doing just that. Hell yeah. While he looks into quote unquote potential prosecutorial and police misconduct. Hell yeah. They have said that the initial investigators ignored crucial evidence and even witnesses.

Yeah. Witnesses. I believe it. And the judge from the first trial, Chris Kunza Menemeyer, has had four cases reversed by the appeals court and is suspended without pay. I was just going to say if you have that many, like, come on. Four cases reversed, suspended without pay. Your judgment is clearly not sound. Right to jail. Like, right to jail. Right to jail. And Betsy's daughters are actually still waiting to hear about an appeal that they filed

back in 2016 because this was like before anything and happened with Pam going to prison. And that original judge ruled that because the life insurance policy didn't have any instructions in every, like the original life insurance policy, there were no instructions. so technically the money was rightfully pams. Oh man. Like on paper. And that's tough. That shit is so specific and you have to be like with your will and testament and all that and your state and everything, you have to be so specific. And even if you are sometimes like so specific. People can twist it. People still twist it. And people will. So every update that I've read on this case says that there should be a conclusion very soon. Oh, I hope so. One of them that I read said that they were hoping to have like

some kind of conclusion by December. But obviously that didn't happen. So hopefully we're rocking and rolling and that there's going to be like some news in the new year. An update. And there's also actually going to be, I think, a limited series made about the case. It's actually being made right now, I'm pretty sure. That's going to star Renee Zellweger. I just saw that.

I just saw her in costume and she really looks like Pam Pupp and it's scary. It's disturbing. It's like very disturbing. It's scary. I think it's supposed to come out in 2022. Yeah. And based off, it's actually based off of the podcast. The Thing About Pam, which is hosted by the one, the only Keith Morrison.

And I didn't even fucking know that. Somebody on Patreon was like, oh, yeah, like I've heard this case before. And you guys were talking about Keith Morrison in part one. He has a whole podcast about it. And we had no idea. I didn't know. Look at that. Here I am.

Behind on Keith things. I'm sorry, friend. Your friend. Yeah, we're supposed to be friends here. Wow. Yeah. Sorry, Keith. Wow.

I'll get back on my shit. Some friend you are. I'll get on it. Don't worry. 2022. I'm on it. I am so hoping that, like, in the next couple of months, we have an update on this case. I hope we have a hell of an update.

This case was one of the most bananas that I have ever read. You did an amazing job telling it. I was riveted. Rivided. I was literally like, what's going to happen? What is it? What is it? Oh, man.

That's crazy. Thank you for bringing that into my life. You're welcome. I'm glad that Russ is out. I know. I'm glad that Pam is in. I know. And I just hope that Betsy's daughters get.

what they deserve. I was just going to say, and I really hope her daughters get everything that they deserve. They lost their mom. In a horrific way. They just got nothing that they deserved. Yeah, nothing that Betsy wanted them to have. Betsy wanted them to have it. Yeah, especially according to that, quote-unquote, document, she said, like, please help my daughters. I'm like, why is nobody looking at that? I know. But then it's because it's because it's. But then it's because it was. And I'm like, cool. Yeah, it was a bullshit one. Such a bummer. But I'm sure she would have wanted her daughters taken care of. Of course. Oh. So yeah, that is the key. of Pamela Hup. Pamela Hup. Pamela, fuck you. Never coming out. Thank goodness. See ya. Oh.

Seriously. I don't even know how to end it. I'm just like, wow. I can't wait it's over. But it's not even over. I know. We're probably going to have an update soon, I hope. I know. So with that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. I don't have to tell you not to keep it this weird. And if you think that I have to tell you to keep it this weird, you're already keeping it too weird. Yeah. Love you. Bye. RIP, Betty White. I love you.