Morbid - The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

A little past midnight on July 30, 1945, the USS Indianapolis, a US Navy cruiser, had just delivered the uranium that would be used in the first nuclear bomb dropped on Japan, and was returning to the Philippines when it was struck by a Japanese torpedo. The ship was badly damaged in the attack and within ten minutes it rolled onto its side, dumping 890 crewmen into the pitch-black ocean and dragging the remaining 300 down with the ship.Those who survived the torpedo strike did what they could to grab supplies before abandoning ship, but there were very few life boats or life jackets, so many of the sailors had to float in the water or cling to the few rafts they did manage to take before jumping from the boat. To make matters worse, their mission had been highly confidential and no one in the Navy knew where the Indianapolis was, much less that it had sank. The surviving crew thought things were about as bad as they could get, then the sharks began showing up.Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesAssociated Press. 1945. "Indianapolis sunk with 883 killed." Los Angeles Times, August 15: 1.Austin, Daryl. 2021. "How a WWII Japanese sub commander helped exonerate a U.S. Navy captain." Washington Post, June 6.Buckley, Chris. 2017. "Wreckage of the U.S.S. Indianapolis, lost for 72 years, is found in Pacific." New York Times, August 21.Charles B. McVay, III, interview by US Naval History and Heritage Command. 2003. Recollections of Captain Charles B. McVay, III, USN, Commanding Officer of USS Indianapolis (CA-35) which was sunk by Japanese submarine I-58 on 30 July 1945 near the Philippines (April 20).Newcomb, Richard F. 1958. "Court's verdict surprises, irks public." Indianapolis Star, November 30: 22.—. 1958. "Rescue operation put in motion." Indianapolis Star, November 24: 1.—. 1958. "Survivors begin ordeal in sea." Indianapolis Star, November 22: 1.Paridon, Seth. n.d. "Surviving the sinking of the USS Indianapolis." National World War II Museum.Phillips, Kristine. 2017. "USS Indianapolis survivor recalls four days in shark-filled sea." Washington Post, August 20.1975. Jaws. Directed by Steven Spielberg. Performed by Robert Shaw.US Navy Court of Inquiry. 1945. Summary findings regarding all circumstances connected with the sinking of the USS Indianapolis (CA-35), and the delay in reporting the loss of that ship August 13, 1945. Summary, Washington, DC: United States Government.Vincent, Lynn, and Sara Vladic. 2018. Indianapolis: The True Story of the Worst Sea Disaster in U.S. Naval History and the Fifty-Year Fight to Exonerate an Innocent Man. New York, NY: Simon & Schuster. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. I'm Elena. And this is morbid. I wanted it to be calming today. It was calming. You made that very zen. I wasn't expecting it. We were just watching a little clip.

Elena was showing me that new Woodstock documentary that's on Netflix, but like Woodstock 99. Oh yeah, guys, watch it. It is harrowing. I feel remiss because I didn't even know that there was a Woodstock. Stock 99. How old were you? Three. Exactly. I was thrice.

You had no business. No one was a Woodstock 99. I had spent thrice years in this world. Yeah. We were, John and I were watching it last night. And he was 16 at the time, and I was like 14 at the time. So neither one of us had any business being there either. We didn't go, obviously. But my, I remember watching the news clips about it later. And I remember, like, my older sisters and my older brother would watch MTV and I could watch one I did. Yeah. And so I could see like little clips happening and I was like, wow, that looks terrible.

Could you know what? It was terrible. It was really terrible. Were you not allowed to watch MTV at like 15? No, I could. But I just like they were watching. I wasn't really like into it yet. Sitting watching MTV at that point, I don't think. Gotcha. I don't think. Well, no, like 14. I was going to say I think I'm thinking I was much younger because I think I'm still thinking of you at three. I mean, even I was watching MTV at three. That was a different situation. Accurate. But no, I think I was like putting myself in. in the middle of three and fourteen somehow. I don't know why.

Probability. But yeah, I was 14, so I must have been watching it myself. Because I remember like Kurt Loder, you know? I remember. Everybody remembers Kurt Loder. Probably. No, you don't. It's okay.

But no, when we were watching it last night, John was like, I wanted to go to this so bad because it was all of his like favorite bands. Red Hot chili peppers. Oh, yeah, like range against the machine. Like it was, and it was a great lineup. But when you watch this documentary, guys, watch it. I'm telling you, it is. You can feel it.

Like, you can feel just the yuck. And you feel it, like, you feel it sliding into what it became. And it's, I think it's only like three episodes because it was three days. So it hits each day. Oh, okay. And it, by the time you're like, we haven't even finished three yet because we're just like preparing ourselves for the travesty that is going to be day three. Oh, man.

But man, I'm telling you, it's a good one. I'm so scared. Yeah. Other than that, that's a life update watching that documentary. Yeah. And other than that, I'd like to let you know that I have bought a bunch of spooky little buildings to make a spooky Halloween village. So pretty excited about that. That's fun. I got a spooky little bookstore.

Yep. I got a spooky little apothecary shop. Oh, a spooky tattoo shop. I got a spooky tattoo shop. Cool. I got like a little nightclub, but it's like, looks art deco. It's not not quite. It's like,

ba- ba-b-da-da-da-da-boo. And it's like, oh, my God, it's like the remix and the Great Gatsby, and it's like, I can't stop. I love that remix.

It's just like that. Jay-Z just actually shot himself because he knows I'm coming for him. So, I mean, yeah, that's what's going on in my life. I'm pretty excited about it.

I also, just one more update, big updates, guys. You didn't even tell me about this one. This one's huge. I painted an excavator on my youngest wall because she loves construction equipment. She certainly does. Whenever we're in the car, she'd be like, Titi, that's an excavator over there.

And Titi, that's a dump truck over there. And do you know that's a backwater over there? And I'm like, what? She's very up on all things, construction. Wait, when John was like going through the construction vehicles with her, and he was like, and is this one like a dump truck? Oh, yeah. He was intentionally saying them wrong because he just wanted to see her, like, call him that.

Yeah. And so he was like, is this a bulldozer? And she stopped and said, I see why you think that's a bulldozer. But that's a backloader. And then she was like, see, it has a scoop or whatever it was. And he was like, what are you? Blippy taught her everything she knows. Three years old.

And she's like, let me tell you about it. But I, you know, for the older girls, they loved like unicorns and rainbows. And they were into that. So I painted a big rainbow on their wall. But, you know, the littlest one, she's into construction vehicles. And I say, why not make her room exactly what she wants it to be? So she has a big excavator painted on her wall now. And I'm pretty excited about it.

She has a chaotic room, which, like, soothes her chaotic soul because she also has, like, a giant moon. Yeah, she has like a giant moon, which she loves. She's always like, that's my moon. And she likes to show people her moon. Yeah. But then she has a big excavator now that she's probably going to be so stoked about. Yeah, it's almost done, so I'm excited about it. But I'll post a little picture of it because it's fun. Here are my updates. I don't have children. So this weekend, I upped my Botox and got my lashes

laminated. Oh, and I try to lip flip. Wow. Yeah. The differences between you have to. I got to let my nurse know if I can drink out of a straw a few days. There you go. Yeah. I love that for you. Thanks. I love that John and I are like, we got to watch a Woodstock 99 documentary and then I painted an excavator on my littlest wall. I'm like cosmetics. But yeah, that's all the updates. And now I guess we'll get to this ash-centric episode. Woo-hoo. It's ash-centric and it's old Hollywood. So it's really ash-centric. Hollywood? Hollywood. All right, people, you party people. All right, one start. I'm just kidding. Oh, God, no. No, just kidding. Get us out of here. Okay, morbid listeners. Let's get out of here. I wanted it to be calm. Our story begins on

what seemed like a normal Wednesday evening in February 1922, February 1st, to be exact, rabbit, rabbit. Mabel Norman. Why you laugh at me? It was just funny. Mabel Norman, who at the time was known as the comedy queen of the big screen. Hell yeah. We talked about her in the Fatty R. Book episode.

Yeah, we did. Well, Mabel was visiting another pal, a pal named William Desmond Taylor. Hmm. William Taylor was also a Hollywood big shot, having acted, directed, and produced many films in his day. And actually, there were a lot of rumors that he and Mabel were involved with each other. It was scandalous. You would think. But like any time they were asked if their relationship was more than Plotonic, they just brushed off the rumors and said they were simply the best of friends. I love that for them. Which like seemed to be partially true because they were definitely friends.

But I'm not so sure. But we'll get there. What they did love to do when they got together, they love to talk about books and literature. And actually, that's exactly why Mabel was over at Williams' house in the first place that night. Her chauffeur had arrived sometime around 7 p.m. And she said that she spent about 45 minutes with William. It was a relatively short visit compared to what they would usually hang out. But they were just exchanging a couple of books and then had a quick discussion about said books and life in general. They had some orange blossom cocktails made by William's housekeeper named Henry Peevee, which like, I don't know what an orange blossom cocktail is, but it sounds delicious. Oh yeah. It's a lot.

sounds great. All of that sounds great. Yeah, literature. Let's talk about books and drink this fancy cocktail. Vives. Yeah, all around. Yeah, Mabel vibes. She loved it. Yeah. And then she headed out right around 7.45 p.m. She got in the car that she'd arrived in. And as her driver headed into the night, she just blew William a little kiss goodbye. That's really precious. And he waved from the door as the car got smaller and smaller and walked back into his apartment, which he did without shutting the door, seemingly just going to him. his desk to do some work and let the cool breeze just, you know, roam through his apartment. It's weird as fuck, William. What's that about? He would actually just like really love to leave his friend door open to let the cool breeze in. Wow. Yeah. It's February, but remember we're in California. Oh yeah. So, you know. Yeah, that makes a little more sense, but like still no.

Yeah, I don't, don't leave your door open. I'm not going to. That doesn't make any sense. No. And Mabel had no idea that that would be the last time that she would see William Taylor alive. Oh, no. Or did. she. Oh. But before we get to that whole mess, let's talk a little bit about who William Desmond Taylor was in the first place. Yeah, I'm interested. And the work you'd become known for. Well, William Desmond Taylor was actually born in County Carlo, Ireland on April 26, 1872. And his given name was actually William Cunningham Dean Tanner. Oh, wow. He changed it later in life, perhaps to have a stage name, or perhaps to start a new life. Have no fear, we will get there. Okay. So,

astrology here. Being bored on April 26 made him a tourist, which in my opinion is like pretty fitting for him because tourist placements are really dedicated to work. They're known to do everything they can to follow through with any goal that they set them for themselves. They're also like super, super independent, but if they need to, they can work all right with a partner. Okay. They like to be the provider, but they're also very territorial. And again, this is like generalization. And they'd be really fine being on their own. Like they prefer it that way. Okay. Okay. And some of their negative traits, by the way, include self-indulgence and stubbornness. So you guys will just have to let us know if you think those qualities describe William. Stubborn like a bull. Could be. Look at you. Look at me.

Hey. So he was one of five children raised by British parents. Even though he'd been born in Ireland, he seemed to be like way more of an Englishman. And he had the accent to show for it. Now his father, Major Thomas Kearns Dean Tanner, was super high up in the British Army. And he expected his son to follow in his footstead. steps. And then his mother, Jane O'Brien, was an heiress of sorts. His siblings were Dennis Gage Dean Tanner, Ellen Nell Dean Tanner, Faudill Phillips, and then Lizzie Daisy Dean Tanner, and last but not least, Oswald Kearns Dean Tanner. These are the cutest names I've ever heard in my life. Lizzie Daisy Dean. Lizzie, Daisy Dean. That's adorable. Taylor. Taylor. Taylor. Excuse me. I like Oswald because I used to watch that TV show. Yes, the little octa Puss? Yeah, I remember that one. I do. He was, William was particularly close with his brother. I thought you were talking about Oswald. I was like, what was he? Oswald was like super close with his

brother. I don't remember anything about that show, except that he used to put a little black cap on. Yeah. That was so cute. That was adorable. We all have that one friend who when you ask how they're doing, they always say they're fine. And honestly, it's like kind of the same way with my cats. They seem fine, but you know, I don't speak cats. So I just with it. I'm like, I hope you're cool. I mean, well, I used to go with it. I wanted a little more peace of mind, though, and that's why I switched to Pretty Litter, the world's smartest cat litter. Pretty Litter crystals change colors to detect early signs of potential illnesses, like metabolic acidosis, which can cause diabetes, urinary tract infections, kidney issues, and a lot more horrible

things. Pretty litter is ultra-absorbent and instantly chop soda, I'm telling you, I put this in my basement and, you know, like, I mean, it's cold there, so it doesn't really smell that often, but like it could smell in the summer and it never does because pretty litter traps the odor. It's lightweight, it's dust-free, and it works for up to a month without clumping, which means no more wasting litter. I also just hate having to sift through the clumps. Like it really just makes me nauseated. So the fact that I don't have to anymore is great.

Plus pretty litter ships free to my door in a small lightweight bag. I never run out. I don't have a massive container of litter taking up space. And my favorite, I don't have to lug that bulky container from a store to my car and then into my house and down into the basement because like, whoa, it's a workout, but like not what I'm looking for. I just like really hated other cat litters until I started trying pretty litter and it was like I made the switch and everything just kind of went, ah, I didn't have to scoop extra stuff anymore. My house didn't smell.

I wasn't getting like freaking shoulder aches from lugging bags around. I'm telling you. Once you try pretty litter, it will be the only litter that you ever use. Go to pretty litter.com slash morbid to save 20% on your first order. That's pretty litter.com slash morbid to save. save 20% on your first order. Pretty litter.com slash morbid. But William.

William was really close with his brother, Dennis, especially later in life. And just a little fun fact, actually, one of his uncles was a member of the Irish Parliament. Oh, wow. Charles Kearns Dean Tanner. Damn. Just a little fun fact there. So growing up, it was really, really evident that William loved acting and he would always express a desire to someday pursue his own career as an actor. But his father, like I said, wanted him to serve in the army, and he was like really, really against the thought of his son becoming an actor.

Apparently back in those days, they felt like acting was for poor people or something that was too feminine for a man of status to even entertain. Wow. Like, get fucked. Instead, his father thought that William should get a formal education, which he did end up doing. He went to college at Marlboro, in England. Marlborough. I can never say that. Like that's a town in Massachusetts and I can't even say it.

I was going to say Marlboro. It is hard to say. I don't like to say it. Yeah. In England. In England. In England. But then when his family moved to the U.S., he actually relocated with them and he found work on a dude ranch.

On a dude ranch. In Kansas. Does anyone remember the show, hey dude? I do. I know it, but I don't think I watched it. Shows the shit. I'd love to know that. Look at us just talking about our old shows.

Look at that. So while William was working. on the dude ranch. He started thinking more and more about acting. And eventually, he was like, you know what, I'm going to go out to New York City. Let's do this. I want to break into the acting world. Hell yeah. And fortunately, one of his sisters had passed away. But looking at the silver lining, she had left him an inheritance. And that was what he used to move out to the big apple. Oh, so it was like her helping him. Yeah, it was. So when he made it out there, he was trying to figure out the whole acting thing. But at the same time, obviously he had to figure out, I feel like I say this

every time. They wanted to pursue acting, but of course they needed a job to keep them stable. Of course. I always say that. And also, you can't rely on inheritance forever. No, of course not. So that's when he decided he was going to start his own business, which we would have loved, an antique furniture, and interior design business. Oh, William. And around this same time, he met a woman named Ethel May Hamilton, who also loved acting. And right around the time that they met, actually, she'd recently been in a musical called Florodora, where she used the stage name Ethel May Harrison. Cute.

Now, her father was a broker and an investor who ended up actually investing in Williams' furniture business once he and Ethel got married. What a sweetie. So he got an inheritance. He starts moving out there. He gets hooked up with an actress right away, which is a great step in the door for him. He's killing it. And then her fucking dad at the same time is going to invest in his company.

Then her freaking dad. Freaking dad, man. So they got married. they were like, oh, we love each other. And they got married on December 7th, 1901 at the Church of the Transfiguration, which is also known as the little church around the corner. That's really precious. All of this is precious. Yeah, you would think. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah, you would think. It doesn't stay that way. It's about to get not magical. That's in New York. And I think it exists to this day. Cute. Yeah. So in a couple years time, Ethel gave birth to a little daughter who she also decided to name Ethel,

very Lorelai and Gilmore Girls. Get it. Little Ethel was called Ethel Daisy. Oh, yeah. Stop. Is that after his sister? Yep. Oh, called it.

Adorable. So they had a sweet little family, and they were well known in the social scene in the city. They belonged to all kinds of clubs that were important among New York society. Yeah, they did. But all was not so cute and charming,

like you just said, behind closed doors. Because I was going to say, like, I can see being like, oh, you want to hang out with William and Ethel tonight? Like, hell yeah, I do. Yeah. Actually, you just said that and I was like, can we? But I know that they're dead. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. So the thing is, it was really well known that William was having multiple affairs on Ethel. Oh, no, William. Yeah, he was scooting around town. William, you got a kid now. But my favorite thing is that he pulled a real housewife moment there. He told his family that he suffered from bouts of amnesia. Wow. And like, I don't, that could be the truth he very well might have, but I think that might have just been an excuse for him to step out on his family from time to time.

Yeah, I don't know how many times that excuse has been found to be correct when it's tied to multiple affairs and getting caught. Like, if you're Michelle Tanner, maybe. That's not even bouts of annesia. That's one. That's one amnesia. One amnesia. Yeah, you're claiming to have amnesia. And it's like you happen to just have amnesia each time that you go sleep with another woman.

Yeah, it's like when the real house is pretty convenient. that they don't remember saying and they're like, oh, I had amnesia. Yeah, of course. But they get real mad if you say that. So this was something, it just happened all the time. He would like step out, not come back for a little bit. And then he'd come back and be like, oh, the amnesia again. That's awful.

It happened so frequently that when William was nowhere to be found in late October of 1908, his wife and six-year-old daughter just chalked it up to one of those bouts of amnesia again. Oh, and she was six. And she was six. But that was not the case. William did not have amnesia. And William was not coming back. He had stepped out on them this time for good.

He just walked away from his family one day. Wait, he just, like, left? Yes. Oh, I thought you were going to tell me he died. And I was like, oh, man, he did step out for good. But, like, he left. He just, like, abandoned him? He just, like, abandoned him.

He just like so much. He hasn't even started acting yet. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. Oh, man. He, like, did, like, a little bit, but it was like very small things. But, yeah, he just abandoned his family. What the fuck? Just started an entirely separate life away from them.

That's terrible. First, he went to Canada. A six-year-old daughter. Ethel Daisy. Ethel Daisy. What did she ever do to you? Come on, man. So, yeah, first he went to Canada, then he made his way to Alaska.

He was, uh, it was like the gold rush. So he was like, or was it the gold rush? 19, he was, he was rushing for gold. He was rushing for gold. He just wanted gold, okay? I think, I don't know if the gold rush was that early or not. You can Google it. So he was, I don't know.

He was rushing for gold. He was rushing for gold. sure. I thought it was in the 40s, but maybe I'm wrong. The 1940s? Yeah. Was it? I don't fucking know at all.

I don't know why I'm questioning you. The California Gold Rush? Sure. What about the Canada? Not the 19th. I meant the 1840s. It was in the 1840s. I think you're right.

It was in the 1840s. Well, there was still some leftover. And he was Russian for it. He was. That's what I meant by Gold Rush. It was 1848, by the way. Oh, good. To be specific.

Yeah, I should not teach a history class. Sure you should. It would be hilarious. So yes, he was rushing for gold in Canada and Alaska. And he was also finding work with different acting troops. He would join one. And then when he was done in whatever state he was in, he would move on to the next one. I feel as though he has to have some kind of Sagittarius in his chart because we're always running from shit. Because he's always just rushing for gold. No, he's always just leaving. Yeah. To rush. Hey. For the next gold. Or the next acting troop, which like I guess. guess could be considered gold. Could be gold for him. So eventually, he decided that instead of acting, he wanted to try his hand at producing. And it turned out that he was equally talented at both. Now, around this time, he ended up in San Francisco. And he met some friends that encouraged him to keep acting, but to move out to Los Angeles so that he could really establish himself. In Hollywood. Exactly. Because like I said, he's like with these little acting troops and stuff, but he hasn't

really gotten a big break yet. And they're like, why are you going to quit before you've even really started. You haven't even really given it a shot, William. Literally. Give it your shot. Rush for this. Rush for that gold. All that glitters is gold in Hollywood. Tensel down. So he did make it out to L.A. But the whole, I don't know why I said it like that. I was taken a back. Why have you just? You did a head thing that went with it. It was real, real intense. I know people are always Like, you guys should video the podcast, but based on what I'm wearing today, the answer is, nah, dude. I'm wearing a full adult onesie.

Cute. And a sweatshirt over it. It's not an adult onezy. It's just a jumpsuit. Don't call it an adult onesie. It's weird. It basically is, though. I'm wearing my uncle's fucking 40-year-old Notre Dame sweatshirt that is so tattered.

It actually is falling apart. That's a true statement. But it's not about me or you in your adult onesie. or ELE or LA. It's about William. It is. Made it out to L.A. But the whole time he was gone, Ethel and Ethel Jr.

were wondering where he was and when he would come back. And Ethel Daisy was like really missing her dad. Oh. So after years and years of trying to find her husband with no luck, Ethel Sr. realized he definitely wasn't coming back. And she was actually able to get an official divorce in 1912. Good for her. Yeah, she deserved that.

Get out of there. So while she was busy raising. their child and trying to keep her life steady and stable. William was making a name for himself on Hollywood. Olivia Newton-John just died. What? I'm sorry. Breaking news.

That just shocked my whole core. Oh, my God. Oh, that's really sad. Sandy. Sorry to break that in the middle, but it just popped up on my message. It just like was boom. Oh, my God. Man, that's really sad.

Hold on. We're going to have a moment. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, so sorry about that guys, but that was really sad. Everybody go watch Greece right now. Yeah, R.P. Olivia Newton, John. Oh, that's awful.

Yeah, but there's really no good way to transition. There's really no good way to segue out of that, but. Yeah. Damn. All right. All right, so back to William, I suppose. Hollywood, yeah. So he makes it out to Hollywood.

He really makes it big. Some of the biggest films that he acted in were Captain Alvarez and a little Madonna. And then he now was officially using the name William Desmond Taylor. And he hoped that William Cunningham Dean Tanner was someone his Hollywood friends would never find out about. Because remember, he's left his entire family. Yeah. He had to start an new with an identity.

Yeah, you're not going to make a lot of friends being like I abandoned my wife and my six-year-old daughter whose name has Daisy in it. Yeah, it's never going to work out. No, no one's going to want to be your friend. I wouldn't want to be your friend. I'd want to kick them in the shins is what I would want to do. And I would. I want to kick you. I want to kick you.

After doing a few successful roles in silent films, he's getting more and more into the producing and directing side of things, which he also really loved. But the world had bigger plans, or not actually bigger, just other plans for William. Just different. The first world war was in the midst of starting. And when it officially began, William was actually drafted into the Canadian Expeditionary Force. Oh, okay. He was never actually involved in two.

much violence, luckily, but he was constantly being moved around the globe. He was sent everywhere from Nova Scotia to France and back to America again. Oh, wow. It was crazy. And he was actually known to put on plays and keep his troops entertained when need be. Oh, I kind of love that. That was kind of something he did, yeah. So he was a great leader and so much so that by the time he was finished with all of his deployments, he'd been upgraded to Major, just like his father. Oh, look at that. Meaning that Thomas Kerenstine Tanner got the best of both worlds. He sure did. His son made him proud serving and showing great bravery, but also followed through with his own dreams.

It was a win-win. You just have to wonder if his family was like, hey, like, where's your wife and kid, though? Yeah, I feel like that would be like forefront of my mind. Yeah. I think I'd be like, that's awesome. Like great. It's so cool that you are like so heroic, heroic and great. But like, have you seen your six-year-old lately?

Yeah. And he would say no. Your wife? No. Oh, okay. Yeah. So he gets, he gets home from the war and he gets right back to work. He's producing and directing. And some of the biggest pictures that he's known for producing or directing are Huckleberry Finn. Oh, just that. And of Green Gables. Oh, okay. And Davey Crockett. Wow. Yeah, like actual classics. Like actual films. It kind of sucks that he was like not a nice man. Yeah, in the sense of he abandoned his family.

Yeah. But in that sense. You know, in the whole sense of that. But when he returned home for war, he was honored by the motion picture directors, They threw a celebration in his honor at the Los Angeles Athletic Club. Wow. So he had been working with all kinds of big names, one of the biggest names in Hollywood at the time, Mary Pickford. Oh, okay. Yeah, like huge, but also Wallace Reed and eventually a young star that he would discover himself, Mary Miles Minter. She was the star of his 1919 production of Anne of Green Gables. And just a year earlier in 1918, when Captain Elvarez was being shown in New York,

Ethel Sr. and Ethel Daisy were watching the movie. And Ethel had realized where her husband had ended up. She was like, he left me for fucking the pictures. Oh, man. So she turns to her daughter, who's now like 16, because I mean, 10 years I'm supposed to at this point. She points at William on the screen and tells Ethel Daisy, that's your father. Wow. So once she realized where he was, his estranged or actually ex-wife now, was able to contact him. and she was like, listen, buddy, the jig is up. Wow.

Imagine your man's abandons you. And then becomes a big movie star and you have to see his stupid face on TV. And it's like, did he really think he was going to be able to hide in plain sight? Right. Like, you think she doesn't watch the pictures? Like, buddy, you're Captain Alvarez. Come on. Jesus.

I would be so mad. I would be angry. I would want to kick him in the shins, like you said. I'd be perturbed. So a couple of years later, hopefully after some steady correspondence, we can only hope. William actually did take a little vacation and he headed over to New York to meet up with the family that he had left behind. Oh, hey. And in 1921, he officially made Ethel Daisy his rightful heir.

And he really did seem to reconnect with her, which was great because, as we knew, they only really had a few years to nurture the relationship before he passed away. Because on February 2nd, 1922, William would be found lying dead in his Alvarado court apartment. Damn. So his housekeeper, Henry Peavy, would be. the one to find him. When Henry arrived that morning, he used his key to open up the home. And when he walked in, he saw his 49-year-old boss lying face up right next to his writing desk. Only 49. Yeah, he was young. Wow. There was a chair that had clearly been knocked over, which was by his feet, sorry. By his feet. His feet. His arms were by his side and his legs were straight. And there was

blood around his mouth, but no signs of a struggle. Because remember, the front door may have been open. Yeah, the breeze. Now, the breeze. That breeze, though. So Henry Peevee screamed out of the apartment, because this is like a big group of apartments with a ton of famous people living in them too. And he's like, somebody called the police. But the apartments where William lived, like I just said, were full of all different high class human beings and celebs. So instead of calling the police, some of them just stumbled right into what they hopefully didn't realize was a crime scene. But like somebody did just yell to get the police. So I don't know what you thought you were going to get that's it like call the police and you're like oh you want me yeah i'm coming i'm an actress right

no i'm not the same all all these famous people are just stumbling into his apartment like looking at him cool they're like i played a policeman once yeah i can help all right i think my line was uh shit guilty so a neighbor a woman named edna pervience instead of calling the police decided that she should probably call paramount pictures instead oh yeah of course william that seemed to be like a very common thing. Oh yeah. Like you've had other ones that it's like, oh, should I call the police? Should I call 911 want? You know, I'm going to call Paramount pictures. Why are they third, why are they like first in line before the police and an ambulance? So they can set the story up. Seriously. Well, William had worked alongside and under Paramount

for quite some time. So if there was any kind of scandal afoot, Paramount would definitely want a leg up on the police and finding out what had happened first. Of course. Coming up with a more palatable version of those events. So Paramount Studio manager Charles Aiton arrived on the scene not too long before the police were eventually called, but he had plenty of time to hypothetically plant whatever he needed to and get rid of what he wanted to. Now, something we definitely know that he did do was take various letters and perhaps other evidence out of Williams' home. Now, some of those letters would come to light later. There was some between him and Mabel and others written to him by Mary Miles Mentor, that young actress who he had discovered, who was young enough to be his daughter.

Hmm. Now, we're not quite there yet, but don't worry, we're making our way to a whole bunch of Mary tea. There's Mary Tea up in here. Mary Tea. Now, the crazy thing is that it really, like we were just talking about, it really wasn't that unheard of when a more A-List celebrity was found dead in their home that the studio was called instead of the police. And I was trying to think of it off the top of my head, the Gene Harlow House.

That's exactly what it was. That episode. Her husband, Paul Burns, was found with a gunshot wound, but it was unclear whether it was self-inflicted or not. And then instead of calling police, MGM was called and they showed up and they collected various items and got to work on like working out the story with everybody. Yep. I've been listening to like a lot of my favorite podcast lately, which include the sexy unique

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But when you do want to hear a little bit of the outside world around you, you know, maybe you're on a walk and you want to make sure you're being safe, there's an awareness mode. I love that because, hello, I'm literally a true crime podcast host. I can't be walking around like not hearing what's around me. so it makes me feel good that I can listen to my music, but also be aware. Go to go to buy raycon.com slash morbid today to get 15% off your Raycon order. That's buyraycon.com slash morbid to score 15% off byraycon.com slash morbid. So when William was found dead in his home, it was definitely in the best interest of Paramount to go in and sweep for any unsavory evidence.

Now, they had just gone through their entire scandal with Ross. Fasco Fatty Arbuckle. Ooh. Like it was just coming off of that. Oh, damn. And he was possibly involved, like we know, in the murder of Virginia Rapay. But they'd also gone through a scandal with one of William's screen time partners, Wallace Reed. Wallace was involved in what became known as the first major drug scandal of Hollywood.

Ooh. He'd been injured in a train accident back in 1919. And because they would just, like, throw morphine in your face at that point, he got incredibly addicted. He couldn't get his work done well without the amount that he had. his body eventually became dependent on, and his health in his career were both on the decline. And then he got arrested in 1921 because he was violating probation. He had a previous drug charge. And then in October of 1922, he collapsed in his home and he was sent to a hospital, but later

died in a sanitarium. Oh, geez. So all that to say that Paramount simply was not interested in trying to explain what had happened here with William. No, of course not. If it had been anything nefarious, they just wanted to sweep that under a big rug with a big broom. Yeah. No one will ever find that rug. No one. Don't worry. Never. So when the police finally were called and they did arrive on scene, it was about 8 a.m.

And the coroner arrived about 30 minutes later. But before the actual coroner got there, another man would step on the scene and he claimed to be a doctor. He said that he'd been nearby attending to another emergency, and that as he was wrapping up with that emergency, he heard about William. So as soon as he got there, he announced to the crowd right over. way before even like touching William or doing anything he said he died of a stomach hemorrhage what he just looked at the body he was like that looks real stomach hemorrhage to me then he claimed that to everybody he said stomach hemorrhage and then he left i think that guy was just working on his lines perhaps i think he had a monologue that he had to try out i don't know and he was like good day to you

say this then just left i have no idea that's wild who that was who was that man like was it a doctor or was that somebody who was totally, no, no. I can tell you. Absolutely not. I think it was somebody who was told to step into that apartment today and make it a point to say like, oh, natural death, natural, natural, natural, natural. Same stomach hemorrhage. Yeah, happens all the time. Yeah. It's like, what? They just forgot to tell him when they were like, go in there and do this. They forgot to be like, by the way, you need to like examine the body first or pretend that you are. Just like take a peek. They were like, just go in there and stay at the stem and he was like, got it. They just walked in and was like, stomach hemorrhage.

You're like, what? No, you got to look at him first. You missed that part. Thank you. So, unfortunately, that's not really something that we'll ever get the answer to. So you just have to decide for yourself. He's not a doctor. No, man who was put in there on purpose or actor practicing his lines.

You decide. The last two, one of those. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, I have no idea. But luckily, a real coroner was making his way downtown. Hopefully he was walking fast. Face is probably past.

And yeah, and he was homebound. He was actually William, William Housebound. There you go. So when William McDonald, the coroner, arrived on scene, he wanted to touch the body. Oh, I trust him. You know, figure out what was going on.

That's the doctor. Yeah. Oh, I know that guy. I found him. That guy's a doctor. Yeah, that guy's a doctor. Someone comes over and like pats your shoulder. You're like, doc?

Doctor? So he lifts the body and gets a closer look. And that's when it was discovered that William had not died of natural causes. he had not bled out from a stomach hemorrhage, which actually made no sense at all. He had been shot in the left side of his back with a 38 caliber bullet. Wow, that other doctor was so wrong. Yeah, that other not doctor had no idea what he was talking about. That other not doctor.

He missed a big one. Yeah. Like an actual bullet. Like the whole ass bullet. Wow. Now the detectives on scene and later the medical examiner would become pretty certain that William died with his hands rate. at the time that he was shot. Oh, like he was holding them up, like surrender? Maybe. Now, it was because of the way that the bullet had gone through his jacket,

that they thought his arms were, like, raised. Okay. The bullet was described as first entering Williams' left side, about six and a half inches under his armpit, very close to where his left kidney would be. And then it traveled upward at a 60-degree angle, which I have no fucking idea what that looks like. I only know 90. That's it. I know, like, I have one look, and that's it. And that's it, 90 degrees. So then it went through his lungs, both of them, and lodged itself just below his right shoulder. Oh, my God, it went through both his lungs. Yeah.

Ooh. Later, investigators thought that it was possible that whoever had shot William had pulled him in for a hug right before doing so. Oh. And that's why his arms were raised. Oh, that's very ominous and dark. Super creepy. Oof. Hate.

Yeah. Now, it was clear that the motive here are also. obviously was not robbery. William had been found wearing a two-carat diamond ring, a platinum watch, and his wallet was nearby with $78 inside. You know I did the conversion. Of course you did. That would be like having a casual $1,139 and 95 cents tucked away inside your wallet today. Yeah, just sitting by a... Yeah, casual. Dang. Now, so they were like, okay, not robbery, because many, many dollars. Many dollars, many expensive things. Yeah. So they wanted to talk to neighbors who lived in the Westlake Alvarado court apartments with William.

And the first couple that they talked to were a silent film actor, Douglas, and his wife, Faith McLean. So both of them said that they had heard a loud bang kind of noise right around 8 p.m. the previous night. And when they heard this noise or like right after, Faith peaked out of the window. And a few minutes later, she said she heard the noise and she saw somebody leaving William's apartment. Now, she said that the person was walking out of the apartment. and that they made eye contact with her. But she unfortunately couldn't get a super clear view of their face. And she couldn't tell if it was a man or a woman that she was looking at.

Ooh. Yeah. That's also like, I'm worried for you face. Yeah, I know. I made eye contact. Yeah. Ooh. Not good.

No. So she said that the person was dressed like a man. Didn't know if they were or were not, but they were definitely dressed like a man. She said, quote, it was dressed like a man, but, you know, funny looking. It was dressed in a heavy coat with a muffler wound around the chin and a cat pulled down way over the eyes. A get-up that she would later compare to her idea of a motion picture burglar. Okay.

So she went on to say that if this person was a man that they were clean-shaven, they were white and had a medium build, and that they were right around 5'9-9. And she said she was sure that this person had seen her looking out the window, but they didn't actually seem to care very much. Okay. They just turned away from her, kind of looked back into the apartment, and then closed the door behind them and just walked into the night brazen so since this person seemed so calm she obviously didn't think too much of it there were tons of people coming and going from william's apartment all the time

like he was a director he was running lines with people he was an actor he had parties you know like yeah it wasn't crazy so she and douglas said you know maybe that noise was just a car backfiring and like we're being a little crazy yeah like that couldn't be somebody getting shot yeah everybody thinks that at some point until they realize that their neighbor actually got shot yeah that's rough yeah sight. 2020. They also told the police that their maid, Christina Jewett, had told them that she had heard footsteps in the alley right before what they later realized was a gunfire.

Oh, geez. Now, this was creepily right on the nose because during their investigation of the scene, they had found six cigarette butts in the alley right behind William and Faith and Douglas's apartments. Let's get some DNA. I know. In 1920, I don't think they even knew what that was. Jump in the Deloria.

And come on, guys, go back to the future. Let's do it. I've never seen that movie. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry, I'll watch it someday. It's gun it to 88, everybody. What? I said, let's gun it to 88, everybody.

Yeah. Ash's like, yeah, do it. Let's go. You never drive over 70. So it's because I don't want to go back to the future, Ash, obviously. You would know if you saw the movie. I don't want to go back to the future. I'd like to go to the past.

So had somebody been standing in the alley, like, even the whole time maybe that Mabel was there and they were waiting for her to leave so that the coast would be clear to go in and take William out. I don't know. Me either. I have no idea. It seemed possible. It does. And the first person that came to mind, somebody who would have a motive and who had messed with William in the past was his previous housekeeper. Edward Sands. Oh, tell me about Edward. He's a saucy guy. Tell me about Eddie. He was like not the best housekeeper. No. He and William had some serious tension while Edward was employed. Toward the end of their time together, William, like, went away on a little vacation. And while he was gone, Edward crashed William's car, stole jewelry and other valuables from Williams' home, and forged checks in William's name totaling about $5,000, which today would be like if somebody forged checks in your name for about $74,000.

Oh, Edward is a bad house cute. Yeah. I'm going to go out on a limb. I'm going to make a statement. I'm going to go out on a limb and make a statement that William was probably T-O'd. Yeah, I'd be really mad. Really T-O. I'd be really mad. That's like criminal. Yeah. He obviously didn't know it when he had hired Edward, but Edward was like a bit of a career criminal, it seemed. He'd actually been brought to court before for embezzlement charges, and he had been dishonorably discharged from the Navy. Eke. Yeah. Edward Sands actually was a bit of even his real name. Yikes. Something that William knew all about because he wasn't going by his real name either. That's true because he abandoned his children. Yes. Edward's child, yes.

Family. Familia. Edward's real name was Edward Fitzgerald Schneider. And he was from Ohio, but for some reason he spoke with a cockney accent. I mean, get it, I guess. Career criminal. Yeah. So what really made investigators interested in this guy was like, well, all of that.

I was going to say the crime. The crime. And that sometime around the end of 1921, William started getting super weird phone calls. He'd answer, and it would obviously sound like somebody was there, but there would be nobody that answered on the other line. So it's like, what the hell? Like, why are you answering? What's happening? Then his home was broken into, and various things were stolen, mostly jewelry, and also a collection of gold-tipped cigarettes that William liked to smoke.

Gold-tipped cigarettes? Yes, get lung cancer, but make it fancy. Wow. Yeah. So whoever had broken in had eaten food from the refrigerator and left dirty footprints all over the place. Ew, pig. Yeah. Whoa.

That escalated so quickly. You ate my food and you left dirt all over my floor. Pig? Yeah. That's like such a like powerful insult. It's a gnarly insult and I meant it. I know. Like I will hurl that insult at you if you eat my food and you dirty at my floor.

I like do eat your food. to dirty up your floor. I let you do that. I know, that's true. So I was like, it was such a moment. You were like, oh, no. I do that on the daily. Like, if I look at the floor right now, all the crumbs are for me. Yes, that is true. So William called the police. They said 9-1-1. And they were never able to determine actually that it was Edward Sands or Edward, whatever his last name was. But it seemed fitting. Yeah. And then in mid-December, the gold-tip cigarettes actually just magically. showed back on William's doorstep seemingly out of nowhere. Don't smoke those, William. No, he should have also had a simply safe camera.

Yeah. Then a few days later, on December 27th, he got a weird package, and the package had come from Stockton, California. Now, inside, there were a couple of pawn slips for the jewelry that had been stolen from William. The pawn slips were signed with the signature of one William Dean Tanner. Oh. So this meant that whoever had these was fucking with William.

They knew that he was not William Desmond Taylor. They knew that he was William Dean Tanner. Now, along with the pawn slips, there was a note that read, So sorry to inconvenience you even temporarily. Also, observe the lesson of forced sale of assets. A Merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year. That was spicy. It was.

There was an underlying spice to that. And the note was signed, alias Jimmy V. Okay. Now, alias Jimmy Vee was a movie movie. movie about a thief that was like really good at dodging the cops. Kind of like how Edward Sands was good at dodging the cops. Now later on, investigators would compare Edward Sands handwriting with the handwriting on the note that had been delivered.

And obviously, they couldn't determine it to be a hundred percent match, but they lined up really well. Huh. Always been a big fan of planning ahead, scheduling trips months in advance, plotting out my next career move, figuring out what I'm doing for dinner while I'm literally still eating breakfast, but I never really thought too much about planning for kids, and I feel like that's something I should do, and that's exactly why modern fertility was created. It is an easy and affordable way to test your fertility hormones at home with a simple finger prick. Mail it in with a

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Like, he was like, I'll kill Edward Sance. Sass. Then two people came forward who had been working at a nearby gas station the night that William had been killed. And they described a man that they had seen that asked him for directions to William Taylor's apartment. Okay. They said that this was about 6 p.m. Now, detectives believe that William died about two hours later at 7.50 p.m.

So the timeline does match up. Yeah. Now, the two gas station attendants described the man almost exactly how Faith McLean had described the man that she saw, man or woman, that she saw leaving William's apartment. Except they said that this guy was wearing a suit. And it was definitely a man to them. And they said it was definitely a man because he had asked them for directions like face-to-face. Now then another neighbor, a woman called Mrs. M. Stone, said that as she was heading to her daughter's place, she saw a man near Williams' apartments, and she said, at the time, I thought it might have been Taylor's chef.

Now, Edward Sands is often referred to as Williams' housekeeper because he did all kinds of things. He drove him around. He cooked for him, and, you know, he kept the place tidy. So Mrs. M. Stone would have thought that he was the chef. Yeah, of course. It made sense that she said that. But she hadn't realized that Edward's. Sands had been replaced yet, and that was the man she was referencing. Ah, okay. So she also would have remembered him because he was bow-legged and had a distinct walk. Oh, okay.

So if she had seen him in that area, it was like, why was he there? Because he wasn't working for Edward or for William anymore. I want to know. Me too. Now, because his name was coming up so much in relation to the murder, his shady past and the whole handwriting thing, the police were like, yeah, we got to track this guy down. Yeah, of course. But they couldn't track this guy down at all.

Where are you? And I'm so sorry. There it is. Where are you? They tried using an old girlfriend as bait, but it didn't work. Like, she tried to get him to come and he never came. So he just literally disappeared into the night and he has never been found. He's never been found.

He's never been found. That was really dirty what you said. What did I say? She said he tried. She tried to make him come and he never came. Aw, sad. That was really dirty sounding, sorry. But yeah, he never came.

He never showed up. I know. Also, sorry that I made you say your joke. I hate when people do that to me. It's okay. You know what? He never showed up. He never came.

That's what the important thing is. He never came. He didn't. We're punchy today. You didn't deserve it. You know, it's one of those days. It was a bummer, though, because in my opinion, I think he's a pretty fucking solid suspect. Yice.

It sounds good to me. Yeah. Now, by the way, who was ever, whoever was, sending anything, like to William, whether it was Edward Sands or not, it was freaking William out. And he told his accountant that if anything were to happen to him, to look out for my affairs. Oh. So while this was all happening, and it seems to be that Edward Sands was the one doing this, William was getting scared.

Like, he thought he might be killed. He was like, get my affairs in order here because something bad could happen. Yeah. Oof. Freaky. That's scary. That's like serious. Like Godfather shit.

Yeah. Get my affairs in order. I kind of love that. I don't. Well, no, like, yeah. You're like, I didn't mean it that way. I didn't mean it like that. So Edward Sands, he was not the only suspect, as I'm sure you will know.

And this is when we will get to the 3M women in the story. Ooh, there's Mabel, there's Mary, and there's Margaret. All right. So let's start with Mabel. Let's go. Mabel, the queen of comedy mentioned at the top of the episode, is, again, also So somebody that I mentioned in our Fatty Arbuckle episode. So she starred alongside Arbuckle, but also William Taylor, and she was killing it at her career.

Like, she was a woman of her times. Like, she was wild. Good for her, man. Yeah. Get it. But the thing was, now she was wrapped up in all of this because she'd been among one of the last people to see him alive. Oh, that's a bad hit. She left his house at 745, and then the police believe that he was killed sometime around.

750. That is a five-minute window that you are going to have a really hard time squeezing yourself out of this, Mabel. Oh, yeah, that's tough. Now, Henry Peevy, the housekeeper who had replaced Edward Sands, who had found William dead in his home, was 100% convinced that Mabel was responsible for William Taylor's murder. Wow. Years later, around 1930, he would say that he'd been ordered to keep a fight between William and Mabel Norman's secret. This fight allegedly went down the night that William was murdered. Oh. And he said, I was ordered to keep it a secret. So it wasn't just a night of literature and orange blossom cocktails and book club. Not according to Henry Peevy. Oh, Henry. What do you know, Henry? I don't know if we can trust Henry Peeve, though, because he had a good reason to

point the finger at Mabel. Uh-oh. He also was considered a suspect at one point. Now, this was mostly because he was the person to find William dead, but also because he had been arrested three days. He before William's murder for soliciting boys in a nearby park. Oh, Henry. Gross. What the fuck? He was charged with being lewd and dissolute and was actually supposed to appear in court later on the day that William was found dead. Wow.

Now, I think the fact that he didn't have a lot of information to give police, how quickly he pointed the finger to Mabel, and the yucky behavior days earlier made the police suspicious of him. But I'm also not so sure that I believe he's the real culprit. Yeah, he's just an icky. human. I also think a lot of the suspicion placed on him had to do with racism because he was a black man. Oh, okay. And at one point in time, he was questioned about another black man that he was friends with. And this man was only referred to as Anderson. And he was literally only questioned because he was friends with Henry Peavy and had been to William Desmond, William Desmond Taylor's apartment on one occasion. Yeah, that doesn't really sound like a solid suspect. I'm going to be honest.

And nothing came from. Not a great lead. They brought him in for questioning and literally nothing happened. shocked. So I think a lot of this was rooted in racism. Yeah, that makes sense. But back to Mabel. But also like, Henry, what the fuck? Yeah, very gross. Yeah, gross. And, but the other thing is, I don't think that he would have killed William because William was supposed to appear in court and testify to his character. Yeah. So that makes sense. No. Back to Mabel. Back. So like I said, there were rumors circulating Hollywood, even when William Taylor was alive, that he and Mabel Normand were romantically involved. And it didn't help that when William was found, he was either where, carrying or carrying in his pocket, a locket with Mabel's photo inside.

Oh. That had been engraved to my dearest. Oh. It also didn't help. Scandal. More scandal. Because Charles Aiton was cleaning up potential scandal-inducing evidence, and he decided to take some of the letters exchanged between Mabel and William and, like, keep them in his custody.

But later, some of those letters would come out in the media, actually in the days following. And although there wasn't like a lot of substance to really any, or at least the one I saw that was released, people were stuck on these letters and specifically stuck on the way that Mabel signed her letters. She used the nickname William had given her, which was Blessed Baby. Blessed Baby. Blessed baby. Stop it immediately. So when these letters started being talked about in the media, they were dubbed the Blessed Baby letters. The Blessed Baby letters.

The Blessed Baby. Who uses that as a nickname for a huge? I would like name a pug, blessed baby. You should name a pug best baby. Blessed baby. But I would not like nickname a human being blessed baby. That's good to know about your character. We can continue being related.

But I think that would be a great name for like a pug. You should get, I'm not kidding you. And if you don't, then I will. Let's go. Let's go, B, B. Like I call everybody B B B. Yeah, that would work. No.

So the only letter that I could find was really. just her declining dinner plans with William. And she said she couldn't go to dinner because she was going to be hanging out with a prince that night. Oh, excuse me. Like, I'm declining every dinner invitation from this point forward. And I am giving the excuse that I just have to hang out with a prince. Sorry.

That's a great excuse across the board. I got to have dinner with a prince. Yeah, I got to reschedule that Zoom meeting. I'm hanging out with a prince. Got lunch with a prince. Sorry about it. I don't know what to tell you. I can't really.

move it. Yeah. Love that for her. I do too. Love that. Also love that her fucking nickname was Blest baby. Now, the thing about the letters, though, is that Mabel really didn't seem that worried about them getting out there. She was like, there's literally nothing in those, so like, good luck. She's like, all you're going to hear about is my super cool nickname. Yeah, my super cool nickname and the fact that I have dinner with Princess, so fuck right off. Cool. But she did say, and remember, there's more letters that we haven't seen. She did say she wouldn't have been upset if people had read the letters between her and William, but she said that it was possible that the letters could be misunderstood. Okay. So that leaves a little like, that leaves a little to be

desired. Desired. And it's one of those things where that could be because she's like, uh-oh, like, I don't know, there's some stuff in there. Or it can just be like, well, people suck and they could take an actual, like, completely wholesome friendship and turn it into, like, we could be like, man, like, you're just always there for me. And that's wonderful. and they'll be like, there for me, do you mean like, fucking? Is that what you guys mean? Did you when you said there, did you mean fucking? Is that what you meant? Like, that's the human condition. It's true. People will spin things and they'll twist words just to fit their narrative. So I get it. Why she was like, you know what? People might take them the wrong way because people are going to people.

Yeah. I say things all the time and people are like, what? Yeah. I'm like, that's literally not even what I know. Yeah. Like, it happens all the time. Yeah. So other than Babel being one of the last people to see William alive, what made her a good suspect? What did? Really, it was just a lot of speculation. It was well known that she struggled with both alcohol and cocaine addictions, and it was well known that William was incredibly anti-drug. In fact, Mabel had actually come to him for help with her addiction, and by all accounts, he was trying hard to get her sober. Okay. His friend, Captain Edward A. Salisbury, seemed to think that was what had put an end to William.

He later said of William's involvement with getting Mabel off of drugs. quote, Billy Taylor threatened to make an example of the drug peddlers in Hollywood, but evidently, they got him first. Ooh. Mabel absolutely could have been connected to some dangerous dealers. And if William had got himself in the middle of that, I could see that being the case. Maybe. But Henry Pee and, excuse me, and Henry Peevy said that William had been complaining and was annoyed about, quote unquote, mysterious people walking around the area of his apartment in the days leading up to his death. Huh.

So were these people keeping tabs on him and trying to figure out his routine? Yeah. Perhaps. Seeing if he opens that door to let the breeze in? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You never know. But to be sure that Mabel was or wasn't a part of this, hopefully to be sure that she wasn't,

the DA at the time, Thomas Lee Woolwine, he would later run for governor of California that same year, actually. He made the executive decision to have Mabel's home searched for any evidence that might tie her to the murder. Now, the only possibly incriminating things they found were. two guns, but neither matched the murder weapon. Like I said earlier, William had been shot with a 38 caliber, but Mabel owned two 25 caliber. Okay. So it's out. No. But in a shocking twist of events, people started saying that William was actually peddling drugs himself. Huh. So first they said,

he's super anti-drug, like that's what happened. And then he got in touch with the wrong people and they offed him. But then there, this whole other narrative came about that said, that was all a facade. And it was, that's what he was like putting out to the world. He was actually a dealer. But really he was a dealer. So maybe he got caught up in nefarious dealings that way. I mean, that all makes sense. It also kind of sounds like people, just people in again. It does. And choosing narratives that fit whatever they want. Exactly. Yeah. 100%. Now, the sad thing is that this actually had like a lot of impact on Mabel's career. Like her career took a hit for a while. Oh, that sucks. And then she ended up dying. in February of 1930 in a sanitarium because she'd been battling tuberculosis.

Oh. Yeah. But if you, I mean, I would love to do an episode on Mabel Norman, but she like died of tuberculosis and not true crime. Yeah. But look into her. She's a very fascinating woman. I thought I should link a page that I found about her.

I can't think of the URL off the top of my head, but I'll link it. Super interesting. Cool. So from Mabel, we go to Mary. Let's go. Mary Miles mentor was becoming a staple in William Taylor. films. Now, her favorite one that she'd been in was Anne of Green Gables. She'd been acting since she was a kid. And her mother, Charlotte Shelby, was a little bit of a mommy dearest stage mom

extraordinaire. Oh, no. Yes. Mary, much like everybody else in this story, was going by a name other than her given name, which was really Juliet Shelby. Oh, which is beautiful. Yeah, that's really pretty. So why'd she start going by Mary? Why? Well, she did so when she was still very young, and it was all a scheme that was thought up by her mother Charlotte. Because at the time, the laws were cracking down on child labor. And Juliet would have been too young to work as much as Charlotte expected her to. Oh my God. So Charlotte said to herself, no fucking problem. I'll create a new kid. Well, for some reason or another, she actually had the birth certificate of a cousin, Mary Miles Winter, who had died. Oh my God. She literally had her small child start going by the name of a dead cousin just so she could

keep working. Whoa. That's, I mean, we could do a whole episode on her. And we thought dance moms was bad. Yes. Jeez. So as a child star, Mary Miles Minter, it's so hard to say. Say that five times fast.

Ready go. Mary Miles Minter. Mary Miles Minter. I can't. Mary Miles Minter. Mary Miles Minter. It's so hard. Yeah, it is hard.

So she had plenty of experience acting by the time William D. Taylor came into her life. And when he did, Mary was absolutely smitten with this guy. Oh. Now, it is very unclear whether or not a relationship did start brewing between the two of them. Some people think they were super involved with one another, but others say that's total rubbish. Rubbish. Rubbish. And William was old enough to be Mary's father.

She was 19, and he was well into his 40s. So if there was any kind of relationship, that was probably the reason they wanted to keep it a secret. Probably. Now, after William's death, the rumors about the two of them only started to heat up more and more. Now, there were a few things that seemed to be Mary's belongings that were left in his home. There were some letters that Mary had written in code. Now, they were later deciphered, and they were really just her professing her love to him. There was one that was not in code, and it really just read, my dearest, I love you, I love you, I love you.

And that one was signed X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, Mary. Whoa. So many kisses. So many kisses. Now, the investigators also found a silky lace handkerchief that had the initials MMM embossed on them. Oh, excuse me. As well as a silky nightgown with the same initials embossed on that, too. Huh.

So with that, they wanted to speak with Mary. Now, she had actually shown up at the scene the day that William was discovered, and she was said to be very dramatic. Like, losing her shit. I mean, she really did love him. I was going to say. Like whether or not it was reciprocated, that would have been some pretty terrible news on her to receive. Of course. Now, even in the years after his death, she always referred to William as the love of her life.

Oh, that's really sad. It is really sad. Her story in general is really sad. Mary, I'm sorry. That's sad. Now when the police asked her, I keep saying now, I'm sorry. But when the police asked her if she and William had ever been intimate, she was emphatic that they had not. And that when the police asked if she had maybe been with anybody in the past, that might be jealous about her feelings.

towards William and wanted to kill him over it, she said there was no way possible. But maybe it wasn't somebody that Mary had been with romantically. Hmm. Maybe it was the woman looming over her her entire fucking life. Who was that? Her mother, Charlotte Shelby. Uh-oh. So word on the street around this murder was that Charlotte Shelby heard that William had

taken Mary's virginity, and she was less than pleased about that fact. In fact, while William was still alive, there were multiple instances in which they got into loud fights about this. This is so icky. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. It's so Hollywood. It really is just so icky. It is. Some people connected to William back then said that Charlotte had openly threatened to kill him the last time they had argued.

Oh, damn. Yeah. So Mary's sister Margaret came out years later, and she said that she remembered the night of William's murder very clearly. Margaret said that her mother, Charlotte and Mary, her sister, had argued about Mary's infatuation with William and that Charlotte actually locked Mary in her room that night so that she wouldn't be able to run to William Taylor's place. I know it's very like ever after. Yeah. Now, she would go over his home a lot to go over scripts and ideas with him, but Charlotte thought that there was a lot more going on than just reading lines.

And she was like, I've had enough. Wow. And Margaret said that Mary escaped from her room at one point that night. ran away and she figured that she was going to Williams house. But once Charlotte realized that Mary was gone, she went down to the basement and according to Margaret, she came back up holding a gun. Oh. She stormed out of the house, but Mary would be the one to return first. Huh. A little while later, around 8.30 or 9 that same night, and remember, they believe he was killed about 8 o'clock, so this timeline does make sense. Mary, or excuse me, Margaret said that Mary came back home and that she was

absolutely hysterical, completely inconsolable. Wow. Now, then something bizarre happened. She just sat down, picked up a book, and it seemed like she started reading it, but then all of the sudden she just broke out in like hysterical laughter, like doubled over just cackling. Huh. So Margaret was like, I'm going to give you some space because it seems like you're going through it, nighty night. But she said when she was able to, she grabbed the book like once Mary had gone to bed. or whatever the next day. And she said she flipped through the book and that there was nothing to laugh at.

It was like a very dry subject matter book. That's strange. So fucking weird. Now later, Mary would tell her, tell her sister Margaret that she had seen their mother shoot William Taylor. And this is according to Margaret. And interestingly enough,

Charlotte did have a 38 caliber pistol. What? A very rare one, which was the same one that killed William and Testament Taylor. allegedly she threw it into the Louisiana Bayou when this information came out that it was the gun that killed William. Just threw it into the Louisiana Bayou? I don't know how she ended up in Louisiana, but she did she throw it across the country into Louisiana? She needed that bitch.

She was like, whoop, got to get rid of this. She probably organized a trip. Wow. Wow. You know, and we'll find it there. No one will find it there. Getting back into my workout grind, you know, but the hot summer months are here and we need to be proactive about. keeping our bodies fueled and hydrated, especially when we're working out. And that is why I

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transport technology. Grab your liquid IV in bulk nationwide at cost. or you can get 15% off when you go to Liquidiv.com and use CodeMorbid at checkout. That's 15% off of anything when you shop Better Hydration Today using promo code morbid at Liquidiv.com. But even more interesting, Charlotte seemed to have an alibi that day that she had cleared with the police. But many people questioned whether or not her alibi was really looked into that much because she had connections.

She was friends with, at the very least, although there were rumors that they were dating, with the district attorney. Thomas Lee Woolwind. That guy. So, yeah. Was it possible that Charlotte got away with murder because of that connection? Yes. Absolutely. And Mary would later, and this will fucking haunt you.

When I read this part, I was like, oh. Oh. Mary would later say in her interviews that her mother, quote unquote, killed everything she ever loved. Oh. Not only is that the darkest shit I've ever heard and really like shudder inducing, but that is the saddest shit I have ever heard in my life. Of course it is. Your mom kills everything you love. Oh, yeah. Wow. Sad. I have a prime suspect over here. Yeah. So do I, brother. To be quite honest. I mean, come on. It's pretty on the nose. On that rare gun. The schnage. On it. Just ends up in the Louisiana Bucing.

you did. Yeah, she threw it really far. Now, when she was saying she killed everything she ever loved, unfortunately, that also meant Mary's career, because after all these rumors started circulating Hollywood that Mary or her family might have something to do with William Desmond Taylor's death, her career was over. Oh, that's sad. She later wrote in an unpublished autobiography that she and her mother were at least in Williams home the night that he died. Oh. Mm-hmm. Interesting. I know, Right. Now, many other celebrities also seem to think that Charlotte was responsible and that Mary was also to blame for getting so wrapped up with a man that she knew her mother disapproved of. I love that. They're like, yeah, it's your fault too, asshole. I'm going to go with the person who pulled the trigger as being responsible instead of the one that was just living their life and had nothing to do with it. I'm also not going to point the finger at a 19-year-old girl. I think it's all right. No. As long as she didn't do anything, which I don't think she did. Now, Charlotte also had a reputation. for threatening men who took a liking to Mary or vice versa, like if she liked them.

And as rumors went on and on about Charlotte and Mary's involvement, two interesting tidbits were mentioned. Mary had once tried to shoot herself with the same type of gun used in William Taylor's murder after the fact. Huh. And two, after the murder, Shelby's witness for her alibi, excuse me, apparently started getting a lot of money. Oh, weird.

Now, the belief is held by many. that Charlotte dressed up like a man that evening so that she would be in disguise. She knew that Mary, who'd escaped from her room, had run to Williams. So Charlotte went over with her gun and maybe tried to make it seem like she was finally ready to accept this whole thing, went in for a hug as a kind of truce with William, and then shot him in the side. Now, news came out in 1926 that the police had found three long blonde hairs underneath the coat that William was wearing when he died. and an expert would later say that they matched hair samples they got from Mary Minter's dressing room. I know what happened.

Yes, me too. I know what happened. Yes. Wow. Sounds like a pretty good suspect, right? Yeah, it does. Well, wait, because we got one more. Oh, wait, there's more.

There's more. A woman named Margaret Gibson became connected to the case when she seemed to confess with her dying breath. Oh. Yes. I also just looked her up. Mary Miles Mentor. Breatthaking. like gorgeous.

All of them. Mabel, Margaret, and Mary. They're all breathtaking. I'm like obsessed with Mabel. I don't know what it is. She just looks like someone you would like have a great time of. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

And Margaret? Like to die. Literally. Yeah. So Margaret Gibson had been in silent films during the time that William Taylor was also popular. Now she had starred in more than 140 silent movies. But then one day, shortly after William's death, she literally just disappeared into thin air. What?

Not literally, because you can't do that. You cannot. You can't. Really, it turns out that she got married and moved to Singapore. But very abruptly. Wow. Okay. Now, when she came back to the U.S., she moved next door to a woman that she became friendly with.

And over the years, she started going by the name Pat Gibson. Another fucking alien. Yeah. So Pat was at her neighbor's house one day, and she started going into cardiac arrest. This was in 1964. And her neighbor calls an ambulance. And Pat kept saying, you have to get a pre-year. here, you have to get a priest here, I have to confess my sins.

Whoa. She wanted to confess her sins before she died. But they didn't have enough time to get a priest, and things seemed to be going downhill rather quickly. So Pat told them she would have to confess her sins to the two of them, because at this point, the neighbor's son had shown up. Pat wanted them to know, she said, I'm, well, she probably didn't say I sound crazy. She didn't have a lot of time.

She said, I used to be an actress named Margaret Gibson in the early 1900s, and I killed a man. What? A man named William Desmond Taylor. Why would she admit that in her dying breath? Because since. But that's what, no, I mean, like, why, I should have said, why would she admit something she didn't do in her dying breath? Right. Whoa.

That's the thing. He just threw me for a loop. Well, and it's so funny, because I was trying to figure out, it's not funny. It's just like, I don't know. I was trying to figure out if I should put her before Charlotte and Mary Miles Minter. Yeah. But then I was like, no, I want to throw you all off. No, you got to end on that.

That's like, that's a big deal. You really think that it's Charlotte, and I honestly still do. But then you get this woman confessing with her dying breath. Yeah, that's a lot. It is a lot. That's the thing. So the neighbor and her son both thought that Pat had just been delirious in her dying state, but they were the ones that were tasked with growing through her belongings

and cleaning out her home because she didn't really have any family. Now, while they were doing so, they found this trunk that was filled with letters addressed to one Margaret Gibson. along with photos of a woman that they only knew was Pat. Ooh. So it turned out that she really was a silent film actress. So she was like, no, for real. And then all of the sudden, the mother just had this core memory that she needed to share with her son.

It just like hit her like a ton of bricks. She said that one day she'd been watching TV with Pat Margaret and that a program came on about unsolved Hollywood murders at the time. I know that it was on E. Oh, yeah. And William Taylor's murder was mentioned. Now, Pat, Margaret, saw him. and she got hysterical and said, I killed that man. I'm sorry, Margaret did it.

Yeah. I believe her. Unclear how they ever moved past that and, like, had an entire friendship and then she confessed her sins again in her dying breath, but like that's the story. Like, what did you just say? Like, ah, you silly bitch. Like, stop. Like, that's not, you silly bitch, she's like, I'm dying.

Like, if my friend. I'm like the TV show. I don't mean during the dying breath. Honestly, I would say that to you in your dying breath. Just to, like, set you off for the good lull. You silly bitch, don't die on me. That's what I'll, I promise I'll say that. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Oh, God. I don't want to think about that. No, I mean, like, you're sitting watching some unsolved, like, the Hollywood thing. And you're just like, I killed that man. Like, you're like, why are you silly bitch? What are you talking about? Like, I'd be like, I'd be like, that's a serious confession and we need to go to the police.

Yeah. Like, who just says that? somebody who killed a man not Mary Margaret yeah Pat someone somebody who killed a man yeah again I don't know how they ever got past that wow but it turns out that in 1923 Margaret was arrested in connection with a nationwide blackmailing scheme and was charged with extortion okay so those are just the potential suspects in William Taylor's murder again some other theories I think I mentioned one of them before but the first one that I'll say people thought that he was gay and that he was actually part of some love cult and that's how he ended up killed a love cult yeah I wasn't going to explore that that's ridiculous I did it didn't seem to be the case no it doesn't seem like a legit one to me but those people are like well that's why the silky handkerchief and the nightgown were planted by charles aton to make it seem like william was straight because obviously back then it would have been scandalous yeah it came out that he was gay which is fucking ridiculous but it doesn't make sense

because that whole planting of those items just created another scandal yeah so that wouldn't, yeah, that doesn't track to me. But the lead detective on the case, Sergeant Edward King, always thought that the higher-ups at Paramount were doing everything they could to keep anyone connected to William as quiet as possible. And for that reason, they probably wouldn't solve this case because nobody ever wanted to come forward and implicate themselves with this. Yeah, of course not. I think you might have been on to something. I think so. William Desmond Taylor's death is still unsolved. No, it's not. Margaret did it. Did Margaret or did Charlotte?

I mean, Charlotte, maybe she wanted to do it. Maybe that was the plan, but Margaret had already done it. But it's like, maybe they worked together. Maybe. They were both actresses or not. Well, like Charlotte was like in the, in the biz. So maybe she heard that Charlotte wanted to kill William because he had deflowered her daughter. And then she was there that night too and they both hugged him.

I'm saying there's something strange here, but I think I believe Margaret. You do. I believe her. Why do you say that stuff on your dying, what, your last breath? Delirious. She didn't say it only once, though. She said it another time while watching TV. You can live in a state of delirious for a while. Of course you can, but that's a very specific state of delirious. Maybe she like hit him really hard once and he passed out and she thought that he died, but really Charlotte shot him with a handgun. I think the Charlotte. I think the Charlotte one is a really good one too. I can't figure it out.

It's Charlotte or it's Margaret. It's one of the. these two women, that's all I know. I say neither can I, but I think it was Charlotte. Yeah, see, I'm between. What do you think? What do you guys think? Right in. Well, yeah, tell us what you think. Yeah. I'd be interested to hear. I'm interested because I can't figure it out. No, I can. It was Charlotte, but I want to know what you think. So let us know. And in the meantime, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you confessed to killing a man in your dying breath and like maybe it was you and maybe it wasn't but like why would you say that in your dying breath if it wasn't you and definitely don't

keep it so weird that you make your kid work and the child labor laws and definitely don't keep it so weird that you disappear from your entire family and then you show up again like years later and you're like hi I'm captain Alvarez I think Margaret did it no it was Charlotte