Morbid - The Tragic Murder of Grace Millane

Episode Date: June 15, 2023

On December 2, 2018, the parents of twenty-one-year-old Grace Millane, a British tourist on vacation in New Zealand, became concerned when the birthday wishes they sent their daughter went unacknowledged. Having completed her degree at the University of Lincoln a few months earlier, Grace had spent several weeks traveling during her gap year but had been keeping in regular contact with her parents since leaving for her trip. When they still hadn’t heard from their daughter three days later, Grace’s parents called Auckland police and reported her missing. A week later, Grace Millane’s body was discovered in a suitcase near an access road in the Waitakere Ranges, a dense wooded area about twelve miles outside Auckland. A day later, investigators arrested twenty-six-year-old Jesse Kempson, who was the last person seen with Grace on the night of the murder when the two were captured together by a CCTV camera going up to Kempson’s room at the CityLife Hotel.Please Consider Signing this PetitionThank you to our favorite David White for research assistanceReferencesBBC News. 2018. Grace Millane: Man appears in court charged with backpacker's murder. December 10. Accessed May 3, 2023. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-46502649.Creed, Rebecca. 2021. "Former flatmate of Grace Millane's killer says he was." The Echo, November 15.Critchell, Matthew. 2019. "Backpacker Grace spoke to men on bondage chat rooms,." The Echo, November 20.Emes, Toby. 2019. "Accused killer admitted Grace was dead in second interview." The Echo, November 14.Faulkner, Doug. 2019. Grace Millane murder: A trial that gripped a nation. November 22. Accessed May 2, 2023. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-50515326.Feehan, Katie. 2018. "Brother of Wickford woman missing in New Zealand says lack." The Echo, December 5.—. 2018. "Police release last known image of missing Wickford woman." The Echo, December 6.Graham-Mclay, Charlotte. 2018. "After backpacker's killing, New Zealand looks again at violence against women." New York Times, December 13.—. 2018. "New Zealand murder case leads to rebuke of Google." New York Times, December 15.—. 2018. "New Zealander accused of killing tourist." New York Times, December 9.Humphries, Will, and Bernard Lagan. 2018. "Distraught father flies to join backpacker search." The Times, December 7.Jesse Shane Kempson v. The Queen. 2021. SC 11/2021 NZSC 74 (Supreme Court of New Zealand, June 29).Kirk, Tristan. 2019. "Guilty: Fantasist who killed Grace." London Evening Standard, November 22.—. 2019. "Guilty: Grace jury takes only five hours to return verdict of murder." London Evening Standard, November 22.Kolirin, Lianne. 2020. "Grace Millane's killer attacked other women." The Times, December 22.Lagan, Bernard. 2018. "Body found in search for missing backpacker." The Times, December 10.—. 2019. "British backpacker's 'killer' lied about their Tinder date." The Times, November 13.Lagan, Bernard, and Will Humphries. 2018. "Father appeals for clues to help find missing daughter." The Times, December 8.Leask, Anna. 2020. Who is Grace Millane's murderer? Unravelling labyrinth of lies and a fatal Tinder date. February 20. Accessed May 1, 2023. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/who-is-grace-millanes-murderer-unravelling-labyrinth-of-lies-and-a-fatal-tinder-date/PDGHMSM67MZQ5VBH4GT2XIXZ7Q/?c_id=1&objectid=12287282.MacDonald, Stuart. 2021. "'Rough sex' defence for murder could be banned." The Times, May 29.Roy, Eleanor Ainge. 2019. "Grace Millane trial: blood in hotel room likely backpacker's." The Guardian, November 8.—. 2019. "Grace Millane trial: witness says she feared she would die." The Guardian, November 11.—. 2019. "'She should have been safe here'." The Guardian, November 22.Smith, Anneka. 2020. "Grace Millane's life: far more than the details of her death." Radio New Zealand, February 21.South Wales Echo. 2020. "Grace's killer 'raped another Brit tourist'." South Wales Echo, December 23. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is part two of Ash's Morbid, which is going to be a three-parter. That's insane. It's crazy. This case is nuts. This case is bananas. In fact, I was texting Elena this morning and I was like, this is going to be a three-parter. And she was like, are you sure? Like, I don't know, like, could it be a three-parter? And I was like, girl, you let me tell you. There's so much we don't know. There's so much. There's a connection. I'm not to talk about in this part. So like, spoiler alert. But there's a connection to Ben Rhodes in this case. That's crazy. It's just like a little small thing that I'll mention next week. But still, weird.

Robert Ben Rhodes keeps coming up in our, like, in daily discussions every once in a while recently. And I don't really know what that means. Is he dead? I don't remember. I don't know if he's dead. Shit, I need to look it up now. I want to know if he's dead or not because like, why is he popping up in our day-to-day lives? Yeah. I hope he's dead, to be quite honest. I hope he's not popping up on like a truck stop. Yeah, like where is he? I don't even think we're near a truck stop. Guys, he's still alive. Well, fuck me up. He's 74 years old, but, you know, he's still, he's still, we're outing away in prison, so. Oh, okay, so that's fine. So we good right now. What is it all mean? What does it all mean, everybody? Has anyone else had Robert Ben Rhodes come up in their daily lives lately? I bet you will now. You will. Sorry, sorry, sorry, put it into the universe. Well, other than making sure that he's not coming up in your day-to-day lives, I don't think we have a lot of business.

Yeah, I don't think we do either. I mean, the live shows, we're still in the same spot. Definitely all happening next year. We're still working on some behind the scenes. Yeah, we have some fun, like, virtual live shows that will be coming up soon. So keep an eye and an ear out for that. We'll update you as we go. We do have some fun live shows next year as long as everything goes according to plan that we're working on. As long as we can get rid of the Cove Cove. Get rid of the Rona. But, you know, we're all working together here. We're doing it. We're doing it. We're doing the damn thing, but we have some fun stuff coming up, so I think that's really it. All right.

Well, do you remember Mel? Oh, I remember Mel. Melignato. Melignato. And I believe when we left him, he was like running through the house with like a bottle of whiskey, was it? It was, I don't know if it was. I think it might have been whiskey.

I think you're right. Was it? It was alcohol and he was raging as whiskey. I don't know why. Yeah, I feel like I pictured just a bottle of jack. But knowing Mel was probably something he couldn't afford. so it was better than Jack. It was like, I don't know.

A fancy whiskey. I don't drink whiskey. Anyways. So they talked to Dr. Spalding. They talked to Brenda's friends and her family. And then they had that interaction that they had with Mel, like we were just talking about. And the police and the FBI, yeah, the FBI is involved now. Of course the Fibba is involved.

The FAB. They were in agreeance that they had their dude. But they did not realize how hard it was going to be to get. at Mel Ignato, like borderline impossible. So they wanted to dive even deeper into his past and the FBI specifically so that they could kind of profile him and figure out his deal. And let me tell you, we're going to talk more about his like profile in part three. Scary motherfucker.

Mel is no joke. No jizzity joke. That sounded much yuckier than I thought of. Jizzity joke. Yeah, I don't like that. All right. So to dive into part two, they start talking to the women that Mel had previously been romantically involved with.

Oh, I want to hear from them. Well, they had some shit to say. I'm shocked. So Mel had actually been married before and he had three children. Really? Two daughters at that. Wow. And the son, obviously. But I was like, what? Like, you have daughters and this is how you treat women. Like, real nice, Mel. K-K. So he was married to this woman named Sharon. Her name was Sharon Kippen. And her and Mel, her and Mel, I'm gross. She and Mel were married in me. Her and male. Her and male. They were married in 1960, and they were actually married for 13 years before they got separated.

Lucky number 13. Yeah, it was not so lucky. Well, maybe it was lucky that she got out. Lucky for her to get out of there. Yeah. So they separated in 1973. Sharon had a lot of shit to tell the investigators and the Fibi, the FBI, about Mal. Sharon, spill that tea.

Not only does she spill it, she's dumping glass after glass. glass over their heads. Amazing. She said that Mel was very controlling, which we know. He considered himself to be her superior, which I think we know. And he made all of the decisions for the household. Oh, that's no good. You got to be a team. You got to be a team. It's very important. Especially when you have children, I think. It becomes, it's always important. But then when you have kids, it becomes even more important because they need to see you as a unit. Exactly. We're not going to get anything past either of these people. Exactly. You're a force field. No good cop, bad cop.

And then it's like even a relationship in any way, especially when you're living together, you got to be a team. Yeah. Like when marriage makes it legal, then you really got to be on the same team. Right. It's my advice. Or else you're going to end up losing some shit. Just always be teammates.

Just, you know. Just do it. It's fun. It's a Lord's song, I think, team. Sure. Okay. I think it is. I think you're right.

Yeah. I don't, I would sing it, but I don't know it. It should be if it isn't. So I'm pretty sure it is. That's way off base. So back to Mel, the scary guy. was he was super obsessed with what he looked like he like always needed a trendy haircut which i'm like you're ugly so like i get why you wanted your hair to look better but we're doing a good job though

no like you're disgusting he he was obsessed with like what his hair looked like what he dressed like he wore a diamond ring and he wore gold chains if that's your thing cool but you're a murderer i was going to say if you're a murderer and you wear those things not good it adds to the yeah it's no good. And I'm sorry if you're a dude that wears a pinky ring, but I just picture Mel with a pinky ring. Yeah, I'm not a big pinky ring person. If you are someone who wears one, like, you do you. A preference is a preference. It's just a preference. Yeah, I'm not into. Also, I'm like holding, sorry if you can hear my hands cracking in the background. I'm like, I'm like holding my pinky like aggressively. So yeah, he definitely wore a pinky ring. He wore, he definitely wore a diamond

ring in gold chains. But so like, what did Sharon and the kids wear? Because he was really obsessed with appearances, right? Yeah, he's so fancy. They must be. too. No. No? You know where they got their clothes? Kmart. Aw. Which like Kmart actually has some good stuff. I'm not going to lie you. But when he's out there at like Banana Republic and fricking other expensive places. Banana Republic. Isn't that an expensive place to shop? I guess. That was just a funny one for you to pull out of your butt. I don't know. I think that's just like what I associate rich people with. Very high-end banana republic. White House black market. Is that another one? I think so. I'm actually just saying,

stores that used to be in a like place where I worked like a shopping mall. And that's where like the rich people went. So I was like I really liked to the Banana Republic one. Sponsor us. So which is it's sad. They had to get their clothes from Kmart and he's out there wearing all his nice shit. Yeah. And if Sharon ran into any issues where she needed more money, she had no choice but to ask Mel because he controlled all the finances. And like I couldn't find that he gave her an allowance, but that's basically what it sounded like. Because if you need more money, you have to come to me. Right, exactly.

So as far as I'm concerned, that's a fucking allowance. Yeah. And no thank you. So Mel would punish her for different things like that. Like if she asked for money, more money, she would get punished. If she was slightly late to something, she would get punished. Or... Yeah, you can't punish your spouse.

That's just not. No, I don't even... I think that goes without saying. You're not my parent. Like, no. No. Thank you, though. Like, my parents weren't even good at that.

So, like, I don't know why you're trying. But Mel's idea of punishment was, this is, I'm actually going to give you a trigger warning because this is really fucked up. Uh-oh. He forced her to have anal sex to punish her. Yeah. What the. So he raped her.

Yeah, he absolutely raped her. He literally raped her and sodomized her as a punishment for being late to shit. Exactly. Sodomy was the punishment. Mel, literally go sit on a chainsaw. Like, that's insane. I'm going to give you honestly a trigger warning. for the rest of the episode because it's so fucked up.

Wow. Sharon said that he wasn't, I mean, I think she maybe had a different definition of violence because she said that he was only violent with her twice. And she meant hitting. Yeah. But, I mean. Well, she was probably so brainwashed into thinking that that's just, that's what it is. That's violence.

She deserved it. So Sharon said he hit her on two occasions in their marriage. Once he split her lip by hitting her. Jesus. And then the other time he bruised her arm like really badly. she was done toward the end of their marriage, obviously. Yeah. But when she asked Mel about getting a divorce, and also I think she was like, you don't love

me? Like, why are we married to each other? Like, can we just go? But for Mel, it was her wanting to get out of it, which is rejection, which these fuckers don't like. Yeah. Because it's out of their control. So Mel, like, turned around and threatened to complete suicide if she divorced him.

And then he, like, stopped. like showing up to family events and like stopped having dinner with them and shit, which they were probably like, we didn't want to eat dinner with you anyways. I know. Honestly, I'd be like this is better. So thank you. So thank you very much. Thanks so much, Mel. So eventually he agreed to the divorce. Thank God. And they were able to get divorced in 1973. Good. But Mel did not go down without a fight. Of course not. And he got basically everything. He got full custody of the kids. So he is raping her and beating her. And somehow this fucker gets full custody of children?

You obviously, she must have been so scared of him that I think maybe this was the first time she had told anybody in law enforcement what had happened to her. Oh, it's awful. But I think he, and we'll see the way that he has such control and hold on his victims that it's like, these kind of people do. Yeah. It's so messed up. So not only did he get full custody of the children, he got their home and all the belongings

in the home. What? He got alimony from. her. He got to keep all of his personal accounts, which is, I think that's rare for a divorce. What the fuck? And he got to keep his car, which was like an expensive car. People were like, what does he have on her that she, like that he got the kids, especially the kids. Because remember, this was the 70s. And even now it's pretty rare that a father gets custody. But in the 70s, that was like unheard of. Yeah. So people were like, what happened or like, what does he have on her? And what he

had on her was fear. She was able to give a 12-page testimonial on what it was like being married to Mel to the FBI. That's horrifying. Twelve pages. And that's like a horrific brief summary. Oh, man. So imagine what else was in there. Oh, man. So after he got divorced, like, maybe like the day after it seems like, he met this woman named Marianne Shore. Okay. Who is a fucking flaming twat-hole. I hate. I hate. her and you're going to too. Oh, good. They met at, I think it's called Riscollo, at a Riscollo store. And it sounds like Riscollo was like a home goods kind of store. Like they sold like lamps and like ceramic things. Like it sounds like home goods. I love home goods. But then once it was around for longer, I guess it mostly focused on furniture. Oh, okay. It's pretty beside the point. It really

doesn't matter because I was like awesome. Back to Mal. But just like, you know, I want to I want you to... You're set in the scene. Yeah, thank you. So, act one. No, just kidding. Mel and Marian, they both worked there and they hit it off. But Mel told people that he didn't have any interest really in, like, dating Marianne or any respect for her.

He was just using her for sex. Oh, okay. But he would write her notes that were, like, what you would expect a high school boyfriend to, like, sex to you. Like, he would write, like, weird, creepy things on notes. I don't have any direct notes, but they were, like, icky. He was doing the thing that abusers do where they like suck you in that way. Yes, exactly. They throw on the charm.

Throw on the charm. And for her, it was like, she was a very different woman than Brenda Schaefer. Like, Brenda Schaefer was like gorgeous, classic, elegant, like the best. Yeah. Marianne was just yucco. Just yucco. So he was like, oh, I just have to send her like sexy notes to get her in. Whereas like Brenda, like he had to get her like some nice stuff.

He really had to woo her. Now it's okay for me to say this about Marianne because she's horrible. Yeah, you'll agree. Yes, just wait. So he was like, yeah, I just use her for sex. But Marianne was smitten with Mel. Investigators kind of learned what the relationship was like, and it was a little more serious than what Mel had given it credit for.

They were dating. Oh, of course. And while he dated Marian, remember, he has the custody of kids. She would just like watch his kids while he was away on business trips, because remember, he was like a traveling salesman. So he was gone for like six weeks at a time. And this random lady would just be watching his children? Watching his children, yep.

And she was honestly just there to have an adult there, I guess, because she didn't cook for the kids. The housework was up to them. And then as they got older, they started noticing that their personal belongings were missing from their rooms. Because she's a thief. She is a thief. On top of everything. Oh, she's just scum. She, so obviously she was stealing stuff from like the kids, which that's messed up as is.

and then the investigators started to hear similar things from the people in Marianne's life, not just the kids that lived with her. They heard she couldn't hold down a job. She was unreliable. She was manipulative. She actually once destroyed a typewriter at her job because she was like really pissed off about something. So she just decided that was a good idea, I guess.

Take it out on a typewriter. Like what did that typewriter do to you? Nothing. So like I said, Mel might have just been using her for like sex in an in-house babysitter. but Marianne felt much more for him. Of course. She was basically, like, not just in love with him, she was obsessed with him. She would tell the kids that her and Mel were just waiting to get married until they were

out of the house. So she was like, you need to get out of here so that I could marry your dad. What? And actually, all of Mel's kids left when they were teenagers. So they left the house pretty early. I'm not shocked by that at all. Imagine the house that they were living in. They'd probably get me the fuck out of here.

Yeah. So ultimately the couple, the sweet, lovely couple broke up in 1984. Oh, they did? They did. And then now after Brenda goes missing, the police showed up to talk to Marianne. They're like, I want more information on Mel. You seem crazy. Let's talk to you.

Exactly. And she's like, oh, I haven't heard from Mel since April. And at this point, remember, it was like Brenda went missing on the 24th of September. So it was like late September, early October when they're talking to her. And she's like, nope, I haven't talked to him since April. wrong. They also asked Marianne about what she and Mel's sex life was together and she was like, it was pretty straightforward. Like he wasn't into bondage or anything. He never laid a hand on me. He was never violent or angry. He was great. He was an angel. Very vanilla. I almost had very vanilla.

Bar vanilla. Very vanilla. They did learn though that the breakup was not. Maybe it was amicable in Mel's eyes, but Marianne was just like following Mel everywhere he went. Oh, okay. So, very normal. Donna, who's Mel's oldest daughter, remembered seeing Marianne from time to time, just sitting outside their house in her car watching them. Oh, yeah. You don't do that to all your exes?

No. No. I mean, I did like maybe once or twice, but then I was like, I guess I got to stop doing this now. I should probably stop. I got caught. That's what it was. My ex's daughter saw me. Otherwise, you would have just kept doing it.

Yeah, of course. Don Asami. No, totally kidding. That's fucked up. Don't do that. No. So at this point, the police wanted to do a formal interview with Mel because they're like, okay, like, your ex-wife had a lot to say about you. Mary Ann has like nothing bad to say about you, but Mary Ann's shady AF. Let's talk to you again. And this time, this is like the first actual formal interview.

So he and, remember, now he has an attorney. So he and Charlie Ricketts went down to the police station. Charlie Ricketts. That's a pretty good name. I feel like you have to say it like that. Also, Charlie Ricketts used to be like a reporter, so he's a very interesting attorney to have. Of course he's a reporter as well. Yeah.

Good old Charlie Ricketts getting the scoop. Not that there's anything wrong with reporters. I'm just saying he was a different kind of lawyer. No, and you know what? If you're a reporter and you're listening, I'm sorry. Some reporters are shit heads. Sorry. Sorry.

The way it is. The way it is. So they go down the police station. They're like, we're going to ask you some questions. So on the way there, Mel was perfectly fine. While they were setting up, Mel was perfectly fine. They hit that fucking tape recorder and started recording everything. And Mel was like, oh, man, he Meryl Streeped it.

He Meryl Streeped the shit out of it. Like, let's give him an Oscar, except no. He became super emotional about Brenda's disappearance. He was, like, sobbing. And the investigators were like, okay, we're going to pause this so you can calm down. You okay? Calm down pretty quickly. put the tears back on when they started back up again, but a little more composed this time,

you know. Does he have like little vapor drops like in his pocket where you can just be like, drip, drip, and they just start crying? I literally think he's just so psychopathic and terrifying that he can just like, he can just tap into these things he needs when he needs them. He can just. Ooh. And there it is.

A snap and a snap. A snap, but no snaps for Mel. No. So as he's being questioned, and they're just asking him regular questions about Brenda, like, can you tell us? again, what did you do that day? Like, just regular ass shit. He's fidgeting. He's moving his glasses on and off. He's twirling his creepy ass mustache. And he is offering up suspects left and right. Ooh, I feel like that's always, it's always weird that you're like, it's always got a thrown antenna up.

Wasn't me. It was these five people. Let me break out a list of people I think it could be. And he did. He said, maybe it was Jim Rush. Maybe. Because he has a drug problem. Did you know that? You should, you should look into his drug problem. Or maybe it was Charlie Van Pelt since he never got over that divorce from Brenda. Never. Yeah. No. It had to have been him.

But you know what? On second thought, maybe it was Dr. Spalding. You know, he's really upset about Brenda. I think there might have been more to their relationship. I think, you know. So I know I'm sitting here right now, but I'm pretty upset. So I'm going to go. And I just want you to have that information.

Thank you, Mel. Thank you so much. They all, he also changed his story. And he said, which it wasn't like a huge change, but it's worth noting that he changed his story. And he said that they actually hadn't gone to that housing development before. That was the weekend before Brenda disappeared. And he just wanted to let them know in case they looked into that. Oh, because look how thorough. I am and truthful. I'm very honest. I actually reviewed my notes that I read from and I realized that was dated wrong. Wow. We'll also find out that Mel writes shit down,

like literally writes everything down, like everything. Because he knows he's going to have to cover his shit all the time. And he's just a psychopath. Because he knows he does shit wrong all the time. So he's like I should probably always have my stuff covered. Exactly. So Tom Schaefer, Brenda's brother, remember we talked about, he was the one that was married to Linda, who was trying to help Brenda get out of this. He agreed to meet Mel on multiple occasions wearing a wire just to see if he could just, I don't think they thought they were going to get anything like a confession, but they just needed more, like maybe like a slip up or something. Just anything else. Yes, anything else. And they did, they got a few things. Oh. So Tom.

actually had gone out himself to where Brenda's car was found, like on the highway. He went out one Saturday night around the time that she was supposed to have last been seen. And he was like, I just don't buy that she was kidnapped on this highway at like 1130 at night. Like on a Saturday if you think about even around here, a Saturday night at 1130, the highway is still pretty bustling. Like there's no traffic, but there's still plenty of cars going by. Yeah. And he noticed on this particular highway, there was plenty of cars going by. He was like, somebody would have seen something. Yeah, you would think somebody would have seen something strange. Right. Exactly. So he tells Mel this one night when they're at the diner and he's, Mel is like visibly shaken. He's like,

you went out there? Like you were there? And he's like, well, yeah, like I went out there like last weekend. He's like, oh, oh, oh, oh, I thought you meant like you were out there that specific Saturday. And I was like, worried for you. Oh, worried for you. worried for you. Oh, okay. Meanwhile, you just thought that he saw something. That's what it was. So caring, Mel. Tom was like, no, you're dumb. I went out there afterwards to see what I could find. So I don't know how Tom sat through these meetings with Mel, and neither did the FBI. They were like, I don't know how you didn't just punch that dude in the face for what he says. So clearly, the guy. So clearly the guy. And also just the shit that he says, it's just so aggravating. So one night they're sitting there

together after and after telling Tom he just didn't know how he was going to live the rest of his life without Brenda. Oh, please. Like you're talking to her brother. Yeah. Like you don't know how you're going to live your life. Like what about her brother? And it's like we know you, man. Right. So after sitting there telling him that, he pulls out a list out of his pocket. And this list has Brenda's assets, all of her assets and everything they were worth. And he had everything written down. Tom was like stunned. What? He knew how much everything, he knew the worth of literally everything, what she had in all her accounts, what she had insured her jewelry for. He had totals for the furs that she had, like her fur coats, she had a couple. And he also knew, he also knew that she had been making

payments on this grandfather clock that she really wanted. They had found it in like Tennessee and she like loved it. So she was making payments on it. He knew what that was worth. And he not only knew the values of everything, but he also knew who Brenda wanted everything to go to. Oh. Like, he was acting like this was a will, which, wow. Remember, Brenda disappeared out of nowhere, so this was not a will. Wow. Yep. And of course, he was like, I just want to see everything go to who she would have wanted it to go to. And Tom's like, yeah, she, we don't know that she's dead yet. I was just going to say, they haven't even discovered that she's been killed yet. Exactly. And that's the problem. So he's sitting there telling Tom, this and Tom's like, I cannot believe that my sister had been gone for a few weeks and you're

basically reading her will to me. You've killed her. Like, you've killed her like, you know, figuratively. And remember, he had said to the older sister, I just know she's dead. And that's when Linda was like, oh, I just know that you did it then. So it's like either way, the last thing I'd be thinking of is assets. No, but obviously like when you think of Mel, you're like, of course he was thinking of the assets. So he tells, um, he tells Tom, you know, she wanted the jewel. And he said, you know, she wanted the jewelry and I think one of the first to go to me. So if we don't find her, I'm happy to take that from the life insurance. Oh, you are? I'll take that off your hands. Oh, that's so nice. Like, what? He's so helpful. What? And then as after he did all of that, he's like, and by the way,

I think Van Pelt has something to do with this. I think, I think we were calling him Pete in the beginning. He went by Pete, not Charlie. He's like, I think the police need to be looking into him a lot more. All of a sudden, he's like, guys, I got the guy. And it's like, like, Okay. No. No, thank you, Mel. Charlie Van Pelt, they did look into him because they were like, you know, he was her ex-husband. Yeah. He actually had an alibi for the night Brenda went missing. He was working at the police department. So there's a lot of people there. It's pretty decent alibi. He was working there until close to midnight. And then right after that, he went to his second job as a security guard where he worked until like six in the morning. So he was literally covered that entire night. The entire night. I mean, they didn't, they weren't able to like make sure that he was like in his car and there was no way. witnesses saying he was sitting in his like security job car, but they were like, that's a pretty tight alibi. Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, there's a few room for. Yeah, there's definitely room, but they were like, he's not our guy. But it's a good one. Yeah. They checked out the alibi and timestamps checked out for Dr. Spalding because Dr. Spalding was like, I was actually in Tennessee

the night that Brenda went missing. I think his daughter was like in a horse show, like she was riding a horse or something. And he had stayed in a hotel there. So that checked out completely. And then they checked into Jim Rush, the billboard sweetheart. Yes, Jim. He was the only one who didn't have an airtight alibi. Uh-oh, Jim. He had just been at home. But at least he was there to take that member of Bessie, or oh my God, Essie called

at like four in the morning. Oh, yeah. He was there to take that phone call. So it was like, I feel like that would have been weird. And they were like, we just, we know that our guys melt. Yeah. So they did keep Jim on the list as a potential suspect, but they really didn't think he had anything to do that.

Yeah. it's good that they kept them on the list because if you can't like you can't rule them all out down that alibi it's like we can't say he wasn't exactly and also i i don't know if i mentioned in a part one there was four jurisdictions on this case so there's four separate police departments and the fbi but i have to say they didn't really fuck anything up it seemed like wow that's actually very rare like i think they did i think because the fbi was brought in so early maybe that's why maybe they were able to like kind of cohesively get everybody together. Right. Usually when it's even just two jurisdictions, it's like, may have. It's so messed up. Yeah. We've seen, how many times have we seen it?

Yeah, we've seen it a million times. But they did a good job. So yada, yada, yada, those, all those people have alibis. Also, I'm just going to say this now because I didn't really know where to fit this in later. Jim ends up dying. No. Yeah. I think he died like right before they found Brenda's body of, um, he was like, had a lot of heart problems. Well, that's sad. And when he died, they actually took, um, DNA from him and he was rolled out as a suspect. Oh. So he had absolutely nothing to do with this. Oh, that sucks though.

So sad. And he died like still being like a person of interest at least. A person of interest and not know. He was and not knowing. So in love with Brenda. Like they remember they were going to start things back up again. And not knowing if she was alive or not. If she was ever going to be found.

He had no idea. Oh, that's really sad. And I, he had remember like Brenda was upset that he was a drinker. I think he was a drinker before and then I think after. she disappeared. He like continued it and probably did so more. Yeah, I'm sure. That's sad. It is sad. So they go back to check on Brenda's car, which is now like, has been processed as evidence. And they noticed that her driver's seat was pushed all like super, super back. Like somebody very tall had been driving her car. And remember, she was 5'3. Yeah. So they put somebody in the car that was

exactly 5.3. She couldn't even reach the brake pedal, which extends out more than the gas. So it's like, no. No, this does not work. And then I don't know if you remember the tire was flat on her car. So they found out that that had been caused by a nail. But the nail had been previously either put into the tire or run over. And the tire had slowly been losing air. So that wasn't something that was like punctured right then and there.

They said actually that the tire could have been losing air for like either 100 to like a thousand miles. Oh, wow. And that it went flat after it had been parked. And it was probably just like. And it was just the pressure. that's sitting there. Exactly. So they're like, things are weird with her car. Like, she wouldn't have been able to drive this herself. No, like somebody was clearly in that car. Somebody was clearly in that car. And then they kind of figured that the break-in might have happened after it had been placed there. Like,

they don't think it was staged that way. They think somebody actually tried to break into it. Yeah, that makes sense. I don't think her body was ever there. And actually, it wasn't. I can tell you. I don't think. So the family was trying to get any information anywhere they could. Tom and Linda actually traveled to Tennessee where Brenda had bought that clock just to kind of talk to the guy and hang up posters around there because they were like, she's been here. She's been doing stuff. And so Tom is talking to the guy about the clock and he actually knew how much Brenda loved the clock. So he continued to make the payments on it just in case she ever came back that she would still have the clock. The sweetest thing I've ever heard. Like brother. Her brothers are like are going to make you cry out multiple times throughout this story. man. So he talks to the guy that sold Brenda the clock and this guy's like, oh yeah, that guy that was with her was a total nut, a screwball. I couldn't talk to your sister. He would dominate. I could talk to him and nobody else. Oh. So they're like, I think she bought that clock with Mel. Ding, ding, ding, ding, who does that sound like? So all these tips are rolling in and everyone's like, no, I saw Brenda here at that time. No, no, I saw her here.

Of course. And like waitresses were like, I served her that night and she looked distressed. Positive. Which is like everybody was lying. They hadn't seen her. Of course not. Which is frustrating. Yeah, come on.

And it was making an already challenging investigation even more challenging. Of course, a psychic came through because that always happens with these big cases. You got to throw a psychic. You always get mad at what they say. And I'm getting mad at it in this case. I usually do. They said that Brenda had been murdered and was in a plastic bag in a 55 gallon drum that was buried in some place that was wet. So divers had been searching for Brenda's body. They were searching

the Ohio River for hours and hours and days. I think it was 80 hours total. And they couldn't come up with anything. Yeah, because she wasn't in there. Right. But one day they were diving pretty close to a spot where Mel was known to take his boat fishing. And they came across a 55-gallon bag with holes in it and a plastic bag inside of it. Oh, you mean a drum? Yes. What did I say? A bag. A 55 gallon drum and it had a plastic bag inside of it. Which is exactly what the psychic said. And it was in a spot where Mel was known to fish. All right, psychic. You know what? They and they were like, oh, like this must be Brenda. They opened it up. Empty. But how weird, like how weird is that coincidence. Like it's like the complete exact same measurements in a spot where Mel was known to be.

Yeah, that's weird. Unless she put it there herself, the psychic, which I mean, it's a lot of work to go to. That would be a lot. Yeah. I don't think she did, but that's crazy. Bananas. Wow. The police, they had to keep getting more information because they're, this investigation was so challenging because like they knew that Mel did it, but they, there's nothing to get him on. They just couldn't pin it on them. There's no, first of all, there's no body. So that makes things 10 times harder. Always. There's no nothing.

Yeah. There's nothing. But what there is is all these people that they keep talking to and they keep connecting Mel and Mary Ann together. Marion Short, the Twat lady. The twat lady. Twat. Joyce Smallwood, Brenda's friend who had actually set her up with Mel in the first

place, we talked about her. Oh, yeah. She went to a hairdresser named Lauren. And Lauren was also Mel's hairdresser. And also, Marianne's hairdresser. Oh, we got to talk to Lauren. And we do. Oh, good.

Lauren told investigators that she knew for a fact. Are you ready? I don't know if I'm ready. I was just going for it. I was like, are you ready that? Are you ready because it's coming? Are you ready for this jelly? Are you guys ready?

I'm ready now. Okay, sorry. Took me a second, but I'm ready. Mel had been having sex with Marianne the entire time that he was dating Brenda. Gross. The entire time. That's really gross, Mel. It's really gross.

Mel and Marianne. And also, like, how are you going to do Brenda like that? She was beautiful and wonderful. How dare you? As a twat lady. How dare you? And also, Marian, get some self-respect. Yeah, that's the other thing.

It's like, come on. She was constantly following him and had, like, we'll get into later, she knew he was with Brenda. Yeah, that's gross. It's like, it's gross on both of you. Don't be doing that. You're both gross. Lauren had a lot to say.

She also told them just how obsessed Marianne was still was with Mel. So remember, they, uh, Donna, Mel's daughter had said, like, I saw her outside the house. Yeah. That was when they first broke up in 1984. Okay. This is 1989 that he's dating Brenda. He, she, Marianne is still following him everywhere. Girl.

Everywhere. She would drive up to the, and also, you're telling your hairdresser this? Like, I'm a hairdresser. I've been told some crazy shit. Well, I was going to say when you were like the hairdresser had all the shit, I was going to be like, the hairdresser always has all the shit. A hairdresser, of course. But like.

You can always count on a hairdresser. to tell you the hot cause. I've been told some crazy shit like I just said. I've never been told anything like this. If my client told me that they were driving to their old mans's house and like watching him and his new gal, I'd be like, wha? Ha? But you don't know how long Lauren has been a hairdresser. That's true. She could be one of those seasoned vets that hears like murder confessions and shit. And it's just like mert-mer. And it's just like in confessional at church. Can you imagine if I had ever got a murder confession, you know, you never know. 40 years down the road, you could. I know. People get real comfy with their hairdressers. I want that to happen. I've been told somewhat, I should do an episode

on some stuff that I've been told. Yeah, and that's right in the beginning of your career. I know. Think about it. Decades later. Oh, I got told crazy shit in hair school. Yeah. So who knows, Lauren could be one of those that just hears it all now. She might. Well, she had some advice for Marianne. She was like, you're not in love. You're obsessed. Yeah. You got to stop. Very different. Love and obsession are too things. Watch that movie with Beyonce. Do it. Beyonce was the one he loved.

That other lady, obsessed. Yeah. Hence the title, obsessed. That blonde girl? Yeah, I don't know her name. I knew her name, but I can't remember it. It doesn't matter because she's the crappy one. She's the twat lady.

She is the twat lady. Nobody cares about the twat lady's name. It's true. You know? So she's like, yeah, you're obsessed. You got to chill. Stop. And Miriam was like, no.

So she kept going to different clubs. No. No. She's like, also that layer is a little too long. can you put that up? She kept going to different clubs and bars just to watch him. And she just, she kept it going. And they looked more into Marian's past. And they saw Marianne not only, like, she was a shady character when they first looked in. Then they did a double look in. And there were actually warrants out for Mary Ann's arrest. That is the least shocking thing I've heard all year.

Honestly, five warrants out for this girl's arrest because she had been writing bad checks. I feel like that's like hand in hand. It's also just the lamest thing to get a warning for. It's always like when they're doing this kind of stuff and you're like, wow, you're shady, you're scary. You're starting to be, all of a sudden you look back and you're like, and you wrote bad checks. And you wrote them. It's always in there somewhere in the history. I know a lady that writes a lot of bad checks.

Yeah. And usually it escalates from there. It makes sense. It does. So where did you've been writing these bad checks? Where? Kmart is a running theme in the story. Wow.

She wrote a bad check to Kmart for something. I don't have the exact amount, but it was like 20 bucks. Wow. Like, you're writing a bad check for $20. Like, is it worth it? And I think there was only like two or three bad checks that she wrote. And none of the amounts were over like, none of them exceeded $50. They weren't significant at all.

No. So it's like, why? It doesn't feel worth it for the consequences that are going to hit you. Right. At all. Like, what do you need? And she didn't have any kids, right? No.

So it's like, what could really be worth that? Like, you weren't buying. like formula for your child and you were like, you know what? Consequences be damned. I'll write this. I'll write this. She was buying like a shower curtain at Kmart and she was like, the debit funds haven't hit, so let's do a check. I need that shower curtain. I guess. Wow. So, but that I say so a lot and I'm sorry for it. I do too. Don't worry. But so that's what the police were like,

this is what we can get her on. Like we can hold her on this. Yeah, because it's great. And keep her in for longer. So they're like, we're going to go out there and we're going to go question her again. And actually, she agreed to do a polygraph, even though they couldn't use it in court. They were pretty happy because she flunked the shit out of that polygraph test. And I feel like that's always just like a good, because I've said it before, that it's like, you know, about as useful as a hot dog in a trench coat. But it's a nice little jumping off point. It is. It looks like you're getting a little nervous. So let's start playing on that. We can go from here. It's a psychological game that you can play. Yeah, this polygraph wasn't just about the

bad checks that she had written. It wasn't just about Kmart. Of course it wasn't. They were asking her things like, so do you know anything about Brenda Schaefer's disappearance that you're not telling us? And she was like, no. And they were like, lies. And they were like, looks like this needle is saying something different. This needle is spinning a tail. Jumping. Jumping, jumping, jumping. And the needle was jumping, jumping. Back to Beyonce. I know. All roads lead. All roads lead to Beyonce. They do. So she takes this polygraph test where she just lies and lies and lies. And she's like, after it's done, she's like, I want to leave. Yeah, of course.

And they're like, you know what? We don't want to jump and jump in too quickly. So they let her go. Yeah, because you can't hold her technically. They could have because they had the warrants out for her. Oh, yeah. I forgot that they had that. But they were like, it's too soon to use that.

Like, we got to keep that close. You got to use that as your card that you throw at the end. You got to keep it close to the chest. I love when you say that. So they let her go. And she, before she went, she made a couple phone. calls. And they were like, oh, she 100% fucking called Mel and was like, they're on to us. Oh, yeah. And they were pretty sure they knew for a fact that it was him. So they dropped Marianne, Marianne.

They off. Oh my God. Yeah, right? No. You got this. They drop Marianne off. Stop, drop and roll. Get the tuck and roll out of this car, biotch. No. They drop Marianne off at the house where she was a living babysitter. I just want you to stow that in your fucking memory that this lady is in charge of children. That horrifies me in ways I can't explain. Just wait. But they decide they drop her off, but they're going to keep tabs on her. They're not fucking going anywhere. Hell yeah, I'm watching Marianne. Me too. I got my eyes on you. Yeah. That sounds like a song. I'm watching Mary Anne. Maybe it is. Yeah. They drop her off. They watch her. It's great. Guess we fucking shows up together. Walking in the rain, taking a nice romantic walk together. Walking in the rain.

No, straight up walking in the rain. Oh, like a legit like Marine Five video. Yes. Okay. Except, uglier. I'm going to say Mel and Marianne walking in the rain together. Oh, I got it. Ding, ding. Ding. So they're like, hmm, what could Marianne be talking to him about? What could Mel be scaring her into not saying? What could this cinematic scene tell us? Cinematic. Marian was cracking. They knew that's why she was meeting with Mel. Oh, yeah. She's losing her shit. She's trying to be like, we got to go tell them. They're on to us. They're closing in. I'm scared. What do we do? Her shit is being held together by very fragile webs of fabric to begin with. Yes. You start like poking at it and it's just going to be like, all the bad checks just get shredded up in paper shredder. It's nothing is holding that together. So they're like, you know what?

We were holding this earlier today close to our chest, but it's getting hot in here. So they arrested her right then there in that romantic rain walk. That's great. And this sounds like a movie. Very film noir. Mel's like, just cooperate, Marian. You don't have to tell them anything. And it's like.

They're both reaching for each other as the rain pelts down on their disgusting faces. You would think that. But you know that Mel, like, tripped her while they were handcuffing her just to make it easier because he's like, I hate you and I hate that I involved you in this. But don't tell them shit. But don't tell them anything. I'd be like, shut up. He's also, like, cooperate with them, but don't tell them anything.

I'm like, cooperate with the police, but don't tell them shit. But lied to them. So, Marian is arrested right then and there. They book her on five outstanding warrants that she had. And she's like, I want. want an attorney and they're like, we figured. It's like, you know what? That's probably a good move.

That's probably a good mood. It is a good mood. It's very much a mood. It's like an attorney. Her brother, a mood. A mood. Her brother was able to get her an attorney. It's Jack Vitatau.

I hope I'm saying that right. If you're not, that should be his name because that's a cool last name. I'm going to call him Jack because Vitatau was hard to say and I'm probably saying it wrong. And it's not whatever. This story's great. don't yell at me for just that. So Jack thought that this was going to be a pretty cut and dry case. He's like, okay, like bad checks. I can do that. I'm Jack. I'm Jack for the towel. I can do this. Boy, was Jackie Boy, wrong. So Jack brings her to the arraignment the next day. And she got sentenced to like a fine in some parole time. I didn't even bother looking into that shit.

Because who gives a shit? Not me. But what I do give a shit about is that an FBI agent stopped Marianne and Jack in the hall of the courthouse. And they were like, Hey, we want to, like, bring you back in for questioning and where would the fibby? So, what would the fibbi? So Jack is like, what the fuck? Like, why does the FBI want to talk to her about a $20 Kmart bad check? Oh, poor Jack. He's like, wha? Jack is like, I'm not ready.

I wasn't ready for this jelly. Wow. I know. It keeps leading. And it's natural, too. It's natural and it's Ashton drinks. This is very organic. So he's like, yeah, well, this is not good.

So he's like, hey girl, what haven't you told me? Do you want to spill a little bit? And she's like, yeah, so I used to date this guy and, like, his girlfriend is missing. And I have nothing to do with it, but like people think that I have something to do with it. And I don't know nothing. I don't know anything at all. But Mel, I love him, you know? She's like, so annoying.

You know how that is, right? Yeah. It's like, you know when that happens on a Friday after work and you're just tired and you don't want to deal with it? Everybody understands this. It's just like one of those things in life. Yeah, that's why I didn't tell you. I just didn't feel like dealing with it today. Yeah, it's no big deal.

I had plans to go to Kmart. He's right to check for $15. I'm right to check for $15 because I just really liked that pillow. Yeah. And he's like, oh, fuck, what have I gotten myself into? But while all that's going on, let's get back to Mel. What's our guy doing? I've been dying to know what Mel's doing.

Mel was dating around and living his life. Oh, he's out on the town. In fact, Mel had been dating people again just six weeks after Brenda had gone missing. You know, he's so upset. so upset. He needs a shoulder to cry on. And he actually like spins that tail for himself and people buy that, which I'm still upset about to this day. Yeah. Because I, you know, I just found out about this a few weeks ago. So I'm still upset. I'm still upset to this day. To this day. Since the 70s, I've been upset about this. I have. Everyone else was affected obviously terribly.

Brenda's family for one. Yeah. But also Dr. Spalding, who she used to work for. Oh. Dr. Spalding was becoming increasingly paranoid. And he feared that Mel was going to come after him. Because remember, he, like, he told the police some crazy shit about Mel. He threw his name in the ring. Right. He was so scared that he literally ran drills in the office where, like, he was like, Mel's going to break in.

What are we going to do? I kind of love that. Like, I feel bad that he was so paranoid. But, like, good on him. I feel like that's a specific type of brain that works that way. That's like. It's like when you and I go to the movies and we're like escape route before the previews, where are we going?

Like, that's just smart. Like that's just, you know what? You're looking at the situation. You're saying he's a crazy person. He's been spewing all this stuff about me. Things could get crazy. And even if they don't, at least we're prepared. It's type A preparation.

And I respect that. And I'm here for it. So he's like, what happens? So remember, Joyce Smallwood, who sat them up. She worked at the office with her. So she's still working there. And he had her carry an 8 millimeter in her desk in her desk in case. In case Mel was to come in.

Yeah. You got to do what you got to do. He was carrying a gun himself and they were prepared to protect themselves should anything happen. He was literally like doing like going and taking like target. Yeah. What's that called? Target practice. Yeah.

Target shooting. He was doing that thing where you shoot a gun at a target. Yep. I know guns. He was also, this is like the super paranoid part that's just sad. He was constantly hearing footsteps behind him. Constantly calling the police to report like potential break-ins when there was actually no breakins. Oh, man.

and things like that. He was so invested in the case and he just wanted to see justice so badly that he set up a reward fund himself for any information on Brenda's case. Dr. Spalding. I love him so much. Oh, man. He just wanted justice. Like, that's the thing. So he cared so much about getting information that he actually asked the police, like, what would happen to me if I ever sent a letter to Mel? And they were like, well, like, what are you going to say in the letter? And he read the letter to them. they were like, doctor, don't do that because we're going to have to put you in jail and you're going to have to pay a fine. Oh, no. And he was like, well, I really don't want to pay a fine, but like I'd be fine doing jail time because I could use the rest. I kind of get that.

I feel like you do get that. You know what? As someone who is tired right now, I'm like, yeah, I could use the rest. I could use the rest. And they were like, yeah, don't send that letter. And he was like, okay. And then he sent the letter. Of course he did. He's looking for that rest. He is. So the letter was not written from scalding. But instead, dead a Floridian drug lord who was going to send Cubans after Mel if Mel did not give up information, all like the information that he had about Brenda. Wow, that's a lot. It's very intense, and that was a very brief summary.

If you would like to know more about that, you should read the book Double Jeopardy by Bob Hill. Wow. Thank you. So Spalding had the letter sent from Florida to make it look real, but Mel figured it out somehow, and he pressed charges for terroristic threatening. Because, unfortunately. It is. Unfortunately, that kind of is.

It is. It all works out, don't worry. Yeah, I hope so. Dr. Spalding in the meantime checked himself into a psychiatric hospital because he was just like really having a tough go at it. He was losing weight. He had shrunk. Oh.

Yeah. And he was... It's like you went into space for a year. It is. I think he did, essentially. He technically did. He was like a shell of himself. And he just wanted information about Brenda because I think he ends up saying that,

Because everybody's like, why did he love Brenda so much? It's like kind of weird. But I think she was like a daughter to him really. Like I think people are being bitchy about it. Yeah, I can understand that. I mean, I get it, but. And you know what? If something was going on, whatever. Well, when do you want your boss to care about you that much? Yeah. I would hope. I would hope my boss would. You're kind of my boss. So yeah, I would care. Yeah. I would care. Yeah. Anyways, Spalding stayed in the hospital for a month and he was diagnosed. That was so loud. That scared the shit out with me. Sorry. He was diagnosed as, He was diagnosed as bipolar and he had manic depression. Oh, I know.

Well, at least he got help. He did. He stayed in the hospital for a month and I already said that. But while he was in the hospital, Mel was weighing his options of also, because remember, he already pressed charges for the terroristic threats. Now he's like, I could do a civil suit and I could definitely win that. And then I would be able to pay Marianne hush money. Oh.

Yeah. Wow. He's like weirdly cunning. He's so cunning. Like, I don't love that. I hate it. I hate when they're like kind of smart in that evil way. It's like, oh.

It's really shitty. So on August 8th, 1989, Dr. Spalding was found guilty on charges of terroristic threatening. Oh, man, Dr. Spalding. But because of the circumstances surrounding the case, he only had to pay $300 fine. Oh, hey, oh, because I think people felt bad for him. I would. And something good came from him. this case. Oh, good. That's something good was the fact that Scott Cox, who was a U.S.

attorney, he had been sitting through the trial. I think he was a consulting with one of the other lawyers. There's a lot of lawyers at trials. Yeah. And while Mel was on the stand explaining how hurt he was by Brenda's disappearance and how it had ruined him, Scott just felt that there was something not right about this dude. And he was like, I got a feeling. I want to do more. And then the Brenda Schaefer's case actually ended up on his desk. Oh. So he got a an idea when this happened. And he's like, I'm going to go talk to Charlie Ricketts. Oh, good old Charlie Ricketts. You always got to go talk to Charlie. Scott's idea was to get a grand jury investigation going where they could put Mel on the stand. And Scott was hoping that he would somehow be able to

trip Mel up or the jury would kind of like feel the same as he did about the slime bell that is, the slime bell that is Mel. You know that's slimy bell that's Mel. But so Scott's idea, he sold the idea of Ricketts as a way for Mel to clear his name. He's like, I believe, he like totally like schmooze this guy. Hell yeah. He's phenomenal. He's like, hell, yeah. I think he's, you know, innocent and I think this is a great way for him to prove it. And Charlie Ricketts is like, I think you're right. Like, thank you for caring about my clients so much. And Scott's like, I care. I care so much, Charlie. He didn't give a fuck. Of course he didn't. He was like, well, he testified really well during the case against Dr.

Spalding, so that's why it's going to be good for him. But he had plans to take Mel down on the stand and get him to crack. And then if he didn't get Mel to crack, he was like, I have a plan to get Mary Ann to testify so that I can get her to fucking crack. Because that lady's going to crack. He's like, I'd really just like an omelet today. I really would. And crack, she fucking did. I am not shocked. Mel, unfortunately, did a really good job of making himself look like a victim while he was on the stand. I figured. Just like in the Spalding case, he pushed the tail forward that he was a broken man who was financially and emotionally ruined. I'm a broken man.

I'm a shell of myself. And when he was asked about his sexual relationship with Marianne, he said, he just needed companionship after Brenda was gone. Just to make myself feel better. That's what the doctor prescribed. Gross. After he testified, he did this super big press conference outside the courthouse, and he said, and I quote,

I hope in some way this will help the investigative officers to redirect their case in an effort. to try to make, to find my fiancee and find out what happened and who was involved. It's not. Don't worry, Mel. It will help them. That's what I have to say to you, shit stain. It's not going to lead them elsewhere.

I'll tell you that much. So he was like, I'm not worried, but he was worried. He was worried that Marianne was getting on the stand. Oh, yeah. And a couple weeks before she was supposed to get on the stand, he actually basically overdosed. He mixed too much, too much vodka with Valium, and he ended up in the hospital. Oh. So the investigators were like, was this a suicide attempt? Now, I don't really think it was a

suicide attempt because I think he's too vain to kill himself. Yeah, I think so too. I feel like those people typically, like that's pretty off the cuff for them. Yeah, I feel like out of the norm, I mean. He's too, I feel like, I don't know. He's too cocky to do that. He is. He's too cocky with this. He thinks he's going to get away with this. He does not think he's going to be caught. Right. I think he thought he was in full control. But I think he knew the hold that he had on Marianne too. And he didn't think she would turn on him, but he was worried about it, at least a little bit. That makes sense. But what a, but that's also a very stupid mistake to make because it makes them look guilty. Exactly. So it's like, I don't know. Also, maybe he just did that because maybe he was

stressed and like took some vallium and he is walking into places holding like big old things of alcohol. So maybe that was just a coincidence. That's what I think it was an accident. I don't think that was intentional. I don't think he was trying to, you know, complete suicide. And I don't think he did it and didn't do it with any intention you know what i mean like didn't complete it yeah i think it was just he was drinking he probably took some valium and he probably fucked it up exactly i agree with that so to make himself feel better mel joined a church and he got himself baptized all right that fixes everything of course it does some of the people in the church were the church were absolutely horrified and like they were like actually mad because they felt like he was making a mockery of their religion which he was

because he's literally being like okay dunk me in this holy water and now every thing's fine and I didn't do it. Right. Like I'm, no. What is it absolved of my sins? Yeah, I'm, I'm, yeah, for you. He was free of the sins. So he became close to one woman who later came forward and told investigators that he called her one night to talk to her about their faith. And this is what he said to her. He basically said, hypothetically, let's say that I did kill Brenda Schiefer. Wouldn't the state, she like, shouldn't the state do what God has done and just forgive? And the lady was like, yeah, wouldn't that be nice? But then there would be no need for jail because everybody would just turn to religion

and confess their sins over and over again. And like we just have criminals running around all the time. Yeah. She was like, that doesn't make any sense. And she was like, if you did kill her, then here on earth, you need to face your punishment. And then maybe God will forgive you like you should if you face your punishment. But if you're lying, then your sins are not completely absolved. Yeah.

And she was, she said that Mel would constantly call her over and over again and be like, why aren't you calling me back? Like, why aren't you calling me back? Oh, fuck that. He was like really interested in this lady. But that was the last time she ever talked to him. Because she was like, yeah, no. She was like, if you say like, what if I hypothetically killed this person that I'm a suspect in the murder case for, you probably killed them. It's like you're OJing before that's a thing. Exactly. So, Mel kind of was OJ before he was OJ. A little bit before OJ was OJ. And then like other people. And then like other people. And, like, you're OJing before that's a thing. And then like, you're OJing before. And then like, other people. And, people in the church supported Mel and they couldn't believe that this was a man capable of murder. So it kind of, it also like divided the church community that he was involved in. Yeah, because it's the people who he was, he was able to pull the, the, you know, the, what's it called? The veil over their eyes. But those were the carpet out from under them. I'm like, what is he pulling? He's pulling something. He's pulling some shit. That's for sure. It was the people who he was able to do that to like being charming, I'm sure. And being very like, sympathetic and like, you know, played on all that. But then it's the people that. are like actually looking at it through like clear eyes that are like, uh, right. No. Exactly. And they, like, he saw religion as like an escape to murder somebody. Yeah, he saw it as like a safety net. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And he was going to like, um, church events, like the singles events that the church had and people were like, this is disgusting. Like, get out of here. You killed your fiance.

Like, no one wants to date you. No way. Like we're actually pretty afraid of you. Yeah. But while that was all going on. Mary Ann, she got on the stand. Oh, I'm ready. And she fucking blew it. Oh, she's a canary. So she started out fine, cool, calm, collected, all those. A cucumber, if you will.

Oh, my God, all the sea adjectives. All of it. But when Scott Cox asked her, this is what he asks her, and she fucking loses it. Can you just describe Brenda Schaefer to the jury? Oh, I see why she lost it. You do. That's a very aggressive question. So she said, well, I only saw her that one time with Mel,

at a bar. And Scott was like, okay, can you describe her from that last time you saw her? The last time you saw her? Oh. Picture what she's thinking. Oh. She obviously remembered the last time she fucking saw Brenda, which was not at that random bar with Mel. And she literally hopped off the stand and was like, I have to talk to my attorney. Because I guess, and I don't completely understand this, but I think how grand jury investigations work is that like your attorney, like if you're testifying, has to be in the hallway. Like, it's just the grand jury and the person testifying. I think. That makes sense. So she runs out into the hallway and is like, I have to talk to my lawyer. She's like, I need to ask my lawyer if I can explain seeing her being murdered or if that will get me in trouble.

So hold on one sec. So Jack was like, she runs out there and Jack's like, okay, like, what's the issue? And Marianne was like, well, they asked me to describe Brenda. And Jack was like, okay. And she, do you know what those words mean? Right. And at that point, it was, it was slowly, slowly, coming evident, but at this point, like, real evident that Marianne knew a lot more than she was saying to anybody, including him. Absolutely. And he's like, if I'm going to represent you, I need to know everything. Yeah, you need to be honest. Like, because that's how I'm going to help you. So she went back on the stand and she just said that Brenda had medium length brown hair. That's all she said. And Scott was like, why did you get so upset when I asked you to describe Brenda? Like,

what can you explain to us what happened? And she said, I just don't. I just don't. I just don't know how to describe her. You just did, though. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And it was real easy. So after her slip up on the stand, the FBI, Scott Cox, and even Jack, her own fucking attorney, agreed that, like I said, she knew more than she was saying. Yeah. So they arranged an off-the-record meeting. And they kept going back and forth during the meeting with Marianne. She was staying quiet, but they could tell she had something to say. Yeah. She was quiet, but they can, they know body language. They know the way you answer a question. They know when you're fucking holding, withholding information. And they just have to keep chipping away. So Scott finally tells her, if we find out something and it's not from you,

like you didn't tell us, and it involves you or this murder in connection with each other, you're going to get the electric chair. Good. I'm glad they were just like, we're going to kill you. No, that's literally. Like he was like, you, like if this happens, you're going to die and like, you'll get the death penalty. Yeah. So just sit with that. if you want to. Yeah, like, just know. And that's when she really started to look freaked out, obviously. And she was like, can I just take a break? And they were like, yes, sure, sweetie baby, what is it that you said? Think it's sweet, honey, baby, sweetie pie. Honey, baby, sweetie pie. Take all the time you need. Yeah. So they broke off for a little bit and she's talking to her attorney, Jack,

and he's like, Marianne, if you know something, you need to tell me. And then maybe if you tell me, I can somehow work out a deal for you. Yeah. So she heard that she would get a deal. And she was like, okay, I'll talk. She's like, oh, you know what? Should have said it. So she gives him some information.

And he goes back to the FBI and the agents and everybody. And they go back and forth. And Marianne finally breaks down and goes, suppose I know where she's buried. Oh. Suppose I know where she's buried. Wow. You've had that fucking information for how long? Wow. It had been... They don't even know that she's dead at this point. No, and now it's supposed I know where she was well, yeah, but they're like, we don't have a body technically. We don't have like blood evidence or

anything. Nothing. They have no evidence and now she's like, what if I could, and she's, okay, so let's keep going. And it's like, suppose I know where she's buried. Oh, we wouldn't want that information. Well, no, don't tell us that. That's gross. Like, no way. Come on. Give us something. we can use Marianne. So Jack is like, motherfucker. I thought this was just bad checks. He's like, oh shit. And he's like, can we work her out a deal somehow even though like I don't want to? He's like, help me. He didn't say it didn't want to. Help me. I'm very over my head. So Marianne comes back. She tells him everything. She said that Mel had been calling her up and saying this, so this is everything that happened. Mel had been calling her up saying he wanted to do a sex therapy workshop

with Brenda and he needed Marianne's help. Oh. Oh, no. So, trigger warning. Yep. So she said that his plan was an entire plan of torture, rape, and he planned to kill Brenda. But Marian had been in the kitchen when Brenda died. So she didn't do it. Then you're fine, Marian. But she did say that she took photos of the assault, but that Mel had them.

So she told them that she helped Mel dispose of Brenda's body in the woods behind her house. Remember, she had five acres of land. Oh, shit. But she doesn't live there anymore. she got an apartment. Like she sold the house because she didn't get along with the fucking landlady because she's a twat lady. Oh, obviously. Not the landlady. Marianne. And she said that she could even lead them to Brenda's body if they cut her a deal. And they agreed. They agreed to cut her a deal because they thought that she had just like really helped in burying the body. Yeah. So they considered it tampering with evidence. And she would only get, I think, one to five years for tampering with evidence.

It's a Class D felony. Fuck. Yep. So that's good. So remember, this is all technically off the record and they needed to know more. So they didn't really have a choice here. Like they were like, we have to give her this deal because we have, Mel is the one that we want to get. And somebody said something like you got to like take the small devil so you can get to the big devil.

Yeah. Which is, it sucks. So bad. So they asked Marianne if she would be able to wear a wire and talk to Mel and maybe get him over to her apartment. to like confess and they were going to set up a sting basically. And this would be awesome because they're like, we don't really give a shit about Marian. So it's like, yeah, go in there with them. They're going to find out that you wanted to give a shit about Marianne.

She told them like, yep, that should be easy because Mel had been calling her for months every single day at four to check in on her, see who she had talked to and see what they had talked about. Every single day. So they had to rush to cut Marianne this deal like on paper. they had to get her to her apartment, get her whole place wired, get her wired, like, carefully. And they had to get her back to her apartment in time to get this four o'clock phone call or else Mel was going to do something crazy and like find out probably. So they made her the deal. Like I said, tampering with evidence.

And if she was found guilty, she'd get one to five years, like I said. So they get to the apartment. They get the whole place bugged. They have officers dressed as workers for the apartment building, which I thought was so cool. And they're ready to strike when Mel shows up after basically they're like, you got to get him to admit the murder somehow on the phone. Yeah. They coached her. They were like, make sure you say Brenda's name. Like tell Mel that they're selling the land where we buried Brenda. And like again, say her name, say where we buried her. And like, can he ask him if he can come over because she really needs to talk to him and she's

worried that they're going to get caught soon. Marianne is apparently uncoachable and the worst fucking person to wire. That doesn't surprise me. Because she didn't get anything done on that call that they had asked her. She didn't even say Brenda's name one time on the phone call. Because she knows what she did. She knows what she did 100%. And the phone call barely lasted even five minutes because Mel honestly outsmarted the whole thing. He just didn't trust it. He was too smart to get over the phone, which I hate to say. And he told Marianne, if you want to talk to me, I'll meet you at the ice cream shop, which was their usual meeting spot. And if you want to find out what they talk about at the ice cream shop, you're going to have to listen to Part 3. You motherfucker.

I know. Holy shit. Isn't this all crazy? This is insane. She's like, I helped dispose of the body and I took pictures and they're like, okay, well, I guess we'll just give you tampering with evidence. One to five years. One to five years. And we're going to talk about in part three, Marianne on the stand again, TBT to when she just hopped off of the stand. Yeah. We're going to talk about how Mel got away with murder essentially. And we're going to talk about how karma is a bitch and runs full circle and maybe you'll be happy in the end because I was. I hope so. I need a good ending here because so far these jackholes are really just running around doing whatever they want. It's

pissing me off. They really are. It's making me mad. So I can't wait to see you for part three. And then it's like Marianne just told them too. Like he called me. He said he was like planning to torture, rape and murder this woman. So I was. went to his house. It's like that enough. That, like, that alone is enough to be like, you're an accomplice to murder. You're a psychopath and we need to put you away forever. And they were like, I think we should just cut the deal. I get why they wanted to cut the deal. But it's, but it sucks. In a roundabout way, you're like, okay, I get that you have to, you know, do the small to get to the big. Yeah. You can't make an omelet without crack in a few ways.

But honestly, I don't think she was the small. I think to get the two of them. She reminds me. I My text said this to you this morning. It's a Carla Hamoka situation. It really is where she acts like. So innocent. And she gets the deal. And she gets the fucking Carla deal. They made a deal with the devil. God, damn it. Just the small devil. Just the kind of small devil. So yeah, we also need to shout out some patrons. Patronesis. We normally do this here, right? We do. Okay, good. Keep that on the record. Yeah, you know. So tonight, we're going to thank Kellyan Spite. Kelly and Spite. I think That's how you say your last name. Thank you. And then next, we're going to thank Adrian Johnson. Adrian Johnson, thank you so much. You're great. Then we are going to thank Kristen Davis.

Kristen Davis, thank you. Kristen Davis, I-L-Y. And then, I think it's Kaylee, could be Callie Yerger. Thank you, Callie, Kaylee, Yerger. We appreciate you. Thanks so much. We appreciate you so much. You know who else we appreciate. Caitlin Boulay. That's a cool last name. Thank you so much. Thank you. Gemma Doble. You're so noble. You are noble. Thank you so much. I love you with my whole entire heart. Next we are going to thank Carol Reap. Carol Reap, you the best. You reap what you carol sow. You do. Justice Laib Berks, I want to thank you and apologize if I said your last name wrong. Thank you so much. You're great. I love you. You're awesome. Then we have Allie Knight. Allie Knight. And it's not like nighttime. It's like I'm a fight you night. Like I'm a Princess Knight. Yes. Like what's that

Nella. Nella. Yeah, exactly. Nella. We love Nella the Princess Night. We love you. And then we love a Madonna. Ooh, Hannah. Hannah. So hot right now. Hannah's so hot right now. Thank you so much. Then we want to thank Don Troj or Trojee. Don Trojee. You're the best. Thanks much. I'd then like to thank Cameron with a K. We love you. Cameron with a K. You're so hot right now. And then just another Madonna, Michelle. Michelle, with one L. My bell. Michelle, my bell, with one L. So hot right now. Oops, I went into a different screen. I'm trying to print you off, Michelle. I'm trying to print you off. I love you that much. Last but not least, I would like to thank Tessa Amaro. Tessa Amaro. Thank you so much. Thank you so much to all of you.

our patronesses. We could not do this show without you. You are here from the beginning. You're here now and we love you for it. It's not it from blah, blah, blah, blah. We appreciate you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you. And as always, guys, you can follow us on Instagram at Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on Twitter. A morbid podcast. Send us a Gmail. Morbid Podcasts at gmail.com. Keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not somewhere that you're like, uh, oh, but not somewhere that you're writing bad checks to Kmart for only like $20 and then you meet this guy named Mel and you're like, oh my God, I love Mel so much, but Mel is only using you and you should really know that. You should have a lot more self-respect than

Mary and sure. Don't keep it so weird that you don't have any self-respect and you're writing bad checks and then you help in a murder and you're like, I didn't just help in the murder. I buried the body and I took pictures, but I'm just going to get off on one to five years because I'm the devil. The devil. Don't keep that married by. The devil. Deal.