Morbid - The Tragic Murder of Roseann Quinn

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

Roseann Quinn was a young, single school teacher working at St. Joseph’s School for the Deaf and pursuing a graduate degree that would help her advance her career. She was independent and had a bright future. Then on January 2, 1973, she was brutally murdered in her New York apartment by a man she met at a neighborhood bar. Her death would become a talking point for those against the Woman’s Liberation Movement—citing her "high risk" lifestyle as the catalyst for her own demise. Of course we know that the only one to blame here is the vicious killer himself, and Roseann Quinn was merely a symbol for his rage.Associated Press. 1973. "Murdered teacher was dedicated to her work with deaf children." Reporter Dispatch, January 5: 2.Churcher, Sharon. 1999. "Could Sex and the City lead to murder?" Mail on Sunday, February 14.Ebert, Roger. 1977. Looking for Mr. Goodbar. January 1. Accessed February 8, 2023. https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/looking-for-mr-goodbar-1977.Fosburgh, Lacey. 1977. Closing Time: The True Story of the "Looking for Mr. Goodbar" Murder. New York, NY: Dellacorte Press.—. 1973. "A man seen with teacher on slaying night is sought." New York Times, January 6: 16.—. 1973. "Suspect seized in Indiana in teacher's slaying here." New York Times, January 10: 1.Gelb, Arthur. 2003. City Room. New York, NY: Putnam.Kaufman, Michael. 1973. "Teacher, 28, slain in her apartment on West 72d Street." New York Times, January 5: 1.Knight, Michael. 1973. "Suspect in killing of a teacher on West Side hangs himself." New York Times, May 6.McFadden, Robert. 1973. "Police issue a sketch of witness they hope will identify killer of teacher." New York Times, January 7: 39.New York Times. 1973. "Insanity defense planned in killing of teacher here." New York Times, February 2: 14.Weisman, Steven R. 1973. "Corrections board assails city aides on Tombs suicide." New York Times, July 22: 33. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this isn't Elena morbid, but it's a main episode, so obviously. So it's all of our morbids. It's everybody's morbid equally. This is a case that is kind of like near and dear to my soul. Near and dear to your soul, okay. It is. Because Boston? It happened to the year that you were born. It did happen the year I was born. So it's actually near and dear to my heart. And I'll tell you why when we get to that. part. I love that. Okay. Because this was the first one, this is one of the first cases that I remember, like, vividly remember being fascinated by. Yeah, I get that. I remember. I think it's because it was in Boston, too, so it horrified me. Listening to this case, like afterwards, I always thought it was an interesting case. And then when you brought it up, I was, I was like, I don't know that case. And then the more you told me about it, I was like, oh, wait, I do know that case. Wait a second. How to

case you're wondering what case we're talking about. It is the case of the Swedish nanny, Karina Holmer. Dun dun dun dun. Dun. It's a very intense case. It's crazy. It's tragic. It's unsolved.

I know. We hate an unsolved, but you just got to do it. We hate an unsolved. But you know what? Our guests tomorrow also hates an unsolved. That was a good teaser. It is. See, we were trying to come up with a way to tease our guests because we're not going to

tell you who it is. No. We have a very, we have a very exciting guest for tomorrow. And what we're going to do today is we're going to go through the Karina Homer case. We're going to give you all the deets, all the nitty-gritty. We're going to stop short of talking about the suspects and the theories, because again, this is unsolved. And we're going to save that for tomorrow to discuss with our special guest. With our honored guest. With our honored guests. You bring your family dishonor. Any more reference. Thank you and good night. First, before. we get into this case, we do have to talk about our live shows because we're supposed to. So don't get mad at me. We sure do. June 2nd, we're going to be at the Good Night's Comedy Club in Raleigh,

North Carolina. I'm betting we won't be there June 2nd, but you know what? I'm hoping we will. Way to be negative, but you're probably right. I'm just being realistic. COVID is scary. So you know what? We're just, we'll listen as it comes. We're going with it. Yep. June 3rd, the next day probably won't be there, but let's say it for shits and giggles, the comedy zone in Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte. Either way, Raleigh and Charlotte, we're going to see you at some point. Exactly.

Then, at Talia Hall in Chicago, we'll be there on October 11th for two shows. Oh, we will so be there on October 11th for two shows. Be there or be square. It's going to be spooky and delicious. Then July 8th, we're going to be at the Comedy Works South in Greenwood Village, Colorado. I hope we end up there. I feel like July will be boy now. I feel like July feels good to me.

It does. It feels safe. Yeah. It feels warm. It feels less infectious. I just, it has a good feeling about it. July 8th, the Wilba Theater in Boston. The Wilba. Come on. Let's make it happen. If we finally booked the motherfucking Wilbur and then now we can't go, she's going to be upset. She's already got to miss her birthday. And by she, I mean me. I'll be displeased. And guys, make sure buy tickets to the Wilbur show. Because regardless of whether it happens at that time or.

later, your ticket will transfer. So get tickets to the show so you can be there. Yes. And then fucking, why can't I look at the number eight and just say August without thinking? I wish I had that ability. August 11th, we will be in Philadelphia at the Punchline Comedy Club. And we're going to ring the Liberty Bell. Inside of the Punchline Comedy Club. Yes. September 16th, we will be at Washington, D.C. Yeah, we will be at Washington, D.C. We will be at the Washington, D.C. At the DC improv. I should have said in the DC improv. In the DC.

Yes. And, you know, monuments. She loves a good monument. We're so excited for monuments. Somebody asked during one of our Instagram lives what monument Elena was excited to see. She was like, all of them. All of them. All of them.

Especially the Lincoln Memorial. Yeah? I have nothing to back that up. I just want to see it. I said it's big, but all monuments are pretty fucking big. What an idiot. Most of them are big. What a fucking is.

idiot. I feel like the Lincoln Memorial is like very, it's got an intensity to it. It does. Because Lincoln did, you know? Because Lincoln, you know? Well, anyways, September 23rd will be in Nashville, Tennessee for an early and a late show at Zanies. Oh, my goodness, Nashville. We are coming for you. And is that where we get the white buffalo sauce? That is where we get the white buffalo sauce. Or excuse me, is a buffalo sauce or barbecue? That's what it is. Sorry. Excuse me. Okay. And also I'm going to have to eat some chicken and waffles while I'm there because huntie a bitch loves chicken and mawifles we got to do it now I'm going to serve that at my wedding not that I'm engaged and then September 24th Huntsville Alabama stand up live and those are our live shows that

commences my spiel yay so make sure you're getting tickets to all those shows because they will be moved around if they need to be for COVID-19 stupidity but you know you can come so get tickets It is what it is. You want to see your faces. It might be at the end of the year, but we want to see you. Either way, it's going to happen, you know. It is. It's going to happen.

It's inevitable, guys. So let's do this. Let's get it. Okay, well, without further add to, let's talk about your case. Yeah, because this is going to be, this might be a long one. But since I'm going to stop short of the suspects, it might not be like as crazy long. Should I go sit on one more pillow because I'm only sitting on one right now? I think you'll be good.

So Karina Holmer was a 19-year-old woman from Sweden in 1996. Correct. She was known as a great kid. She was a very free spirit, a very motivated person. She had a love for animals. And she also had a case of wonderlust. Did you hear that noise? Yeah, I don't know if you can hear that.

It's my neighbor. I was just about to say something mean. but I don't know if my neighbors listen to this podcast. They probably don't, but I don't want to get my host. Well, now you just said you were going to say something mean about them anyway. My neighbor got a motorcycle and it's neat. How sweet. Yay.

So yeah. So Karina Holmer loved animals. She had a massive case of wonderlust. She wanted to travel the world. She wanted to see what she could see. I mean, neighbors and family said she was very tenacious. She was the kind of kid who, you just knew was going to hustle really hard to get where she wanted to go.

We love to see it. She was dreaming big dreams. You gotta. You got to. So she was actually part of Sweden's kind of their equivalent to like the boy or girl scouts. But their version over in Sweden is co-ed unlike the United States, which for some reason still segregates our scouts. Boys are just as good as girls. It's true.

She excelled whenever she put a mind towards something. especially in the scouts. Her father said she could literally, he said she could have the world in the palm of her hand if she wanted it. That's really sweet. I hope my dad says that about me if I ever die before him. Oh, God. That was morbid.

It was. Just keep it on brand, you know? Yeah, you're just riding that wave. She was always described as an excellent student. She loved artistic endeavors as well. It's kind of rare to have both sides of the brain like that, but she had it. Oh, is it so rare, Elena? It's rare.

You have that too. And I'm rare. Okay. I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding. But yeah, she was one of those just rare gems that was, she was smart, she was spunky, she was, she could get down and dirty in the scouts. She was tenacious. She had dreams.

She could do, she was literally just, she seems like she was just this well-rounded human being that you were just like wanted to hang out with. So now let's disappoint the shit out of us, huh? Yeah, now we're really going to take you down. So she won $1,500 on a lottery ticket in Sweden. I don't exactly know how it works. It's like I'm not sure like what kind of lottery that is or anything like that. If it's like a scratch ticket, a lottery ticket, I don't know exactly. Everything you look up kind of is kind of vague about it.

Okay. And with this case, because it's unsolved, there's a lot of questions about it, there's there's a lot of information, but it's like the same information over and over again. We can do a lot of digging and find some little bits and pieces, but some pieces just have yet to come together. Okay. So she won $1,500 on this lottery ticket. She was like, this is it, this is my time. She was done with school and she was considering going to college.

But she was like, you know what? Before I do that, I want to see the world as much as I can. And then I'll settle down into my studies. Hell yeah. So she used that money to travel to the United States. States. This was in March of 1996. So Ash was not even in the world yet. You know, I always am like, well, I wasn't even born yet. So I decided not to say it this time, but you got me. You were close to being borns. Three months away. Yeah. March in 1996, she settles into Boston.

She wanted to go there for its nightlife and its opportunities to work as an au pair. Okay. So it's common for those looking to become an au pair. to go through an agency and secure themselves the proper documents to come over and to work. Right. You know, these agencies will get them a visa. They'll train them for the job. They'll also look into the potential employer's background. This ensures safety and quality on both sides of the job because they're also going to look into the potential au pair's background.

They're really going to make sure that everything's on the up and up. Karina didn't go through an agency for this. Oh, she didn't. Which is odd. Yeah. Huh. So she came to the United States with no visa and a fake ID. Okay.

She used an illegal agency that skips a lot of the important steps of obtaining a job here. And this agency was run by Tage Sundin. And he was a Swedish guy who ran an unlicensed agency that he was fined for several times in Sweden. He just never decided to make it legit. He was like, you know, I think it's fine. I think he was just running it was like a scam Like he was just shooting these girls

Through this agency just to get them over there And then he's like well I got their money Yikes He ended up shutting actually shutting the agency Down after Karina's murder Which nice that it took a murder You know bad press and all Yeah like real cool

He claimed that he had sent six other Swedish Shaw pairs To work for the family that she ended up working for But that's just what he says That's never been confirmed And the family has never said anything like that? Well, no. And we're going to get to them because there was also, this family also has a few other au pairs that knew the family, especially the father.

And don't have great things to say about his tendency to be a little too touchy-feely. You know? You know, just say. So through this illegal agency, she was placed with photography. Frank Rapp and his artist slash painter wife, Susan Nipter. What a duo? Right? I know.

They're fancy. So she was going to be their au pair. They were very wealthy. They lived in Dover in a huge... Oh, honey. Exactly. They had two children that she was going to care for. And Dover, in case nobody knows, is wealthy as fuck.

Dover is out here, big pimping. It is. In 2015, it was the fourth. fourth richest town in the country in the United States. And in 2019, it was number two in Massachusetts as the wealthiest. You know, I don't even think I've ever been to Dover. It's absurd. It'll just take you down. My kind doesn't belong. So she worked in their home during the week. She did the cooking, you know, cleaning, caring for kids, just things in au pair does. Right. She was apparently great at it, according to Frank and Susan.

they don't really talk about her that much anymore. So it's very rare to get any kind of info out of them. Yeah. But they did say that their children loved her. Okay. She was great with the kids, which is really all that matters in an opera. I was just going to say. On the weekends, they gave her run of Frank's photography studio on A Street in South Boston.

So it was a studio apartment that Frank had in South Boston. He had this studio apartment. his photography studio and he was allowing Karina to live there on the weekends kind of for free? Just to get like a break? Yeah, which like, okay. I'm going to withhold what I have to say for now and I think we'll discuss it tomorrow. Can I just ask a question? Do you feel as though he might have been there on the weekends?

Yeah, I just feel like that's, it's kind of a weird arrangement. But again, I'm not going to, I mean, I wasn't there. I don't know. Wasn't necessarily a weekend off. Maybe he handed her the keys and she got to live there and that was that. Or, you know, we don't know. Okay. But basically that was her place to stay and to like use as her like everybody would meet there on the weekends before going out to the clubs.

Love it. She was a pretty big party around the weekends, which I mean, she's, you know, 20 years old at this point. I was going to say I can't say shit about this. My party phase just ended. Yeah. And this has nothing to do with like, she was. was a partier, you know what I mean? Like, no, it's just she liked to go out to the clubs. That's what, and honestly, it was like, there was a big group of like Swedish a pairs, like European apeirs

that hung out together. They all knew each other. They, because they would cling to each other for support. You know what I mean? Like, you're in a totally different country. And they would all meet up and go out to the clubs. Like, this was just a different thing. You're in a different country. You're going to experience the nightlife. Right. Boston's a big city. So she loved going to the bars and the clubs in Boston and um she held a job during the week like she was she was allowed to let loose on the weekends she did her shit during the week at some point during this whole so at some point during the only four months that she was in the states before she was murdered uh-huh she was only here for four months during these four months she did briefly date a boston police officer oh i didn't

i don't think i've heard that before yeah we did there's not a lot known about him he was cleared very quickly without any must or fuss of anything. Weird. Who knows? So in that, so in the time that she was here, she, like I said, had become acquainted with other nannies and au pairs who were working over from Sweden. They all stuck together. They all supported each other. So these were the people that were with her the night that she disappeared.

Okay. She wrote to her friends and family all the time while she was living here. and she updated them on her work and her experiences hanging out saying she made, you know, she had friends and all this good stuff. In the beginning, it was casual, like pretty optimistic her letters to her friends and family over in Sweden. But soon it started turning into like complaints a little bit. Okay. Mostly that she was just stressed. She didn't like the amount of cleaning involved in the job.

She specifically stated she was like, I did not know I was going to have to clean this much. I'm sure it was a fucking massive house. So I'm sure that was like. And she's not a maid. She's an au pair. No, she's not pair. So I'm sure she's like, you know, I'm doing a lot of cleaning. She's like, didn't know that. That wasn't listed in the job description. She was basically saying she was ready at this point, like only four months in.

She was kind of ready to move on already and was looking for something more than what she had in Boston right now. Okay. So then in May, she had written to her friend on Rika Svenson. And this is what she wrote. Something terrible has happened. I'll reveal more when I get home. Yikes. She basically told her friend, I'm elaborate on it when I get back to Sweden.

But she never got back to Sweden to tell her what it was. Oh, that's really fucking haunting. I knew that already, but like, oh. It's just hanging in the air that like something terrible happened. Tell you later. And now we'll never know. And that's it. No one's ever going to know except for her and whoever wasn't in this terrible thing.

So her parents and some friends said they hadn't. heard anything about this terrible thing happening. Like her parents were like, she never said anything to us. Well, maybe she was like embarrassed and never planned on telling them what it was. And who knows what it was. So it's like, but she didn't, she did tell them that she intended to cut her trip to the state short and come back earlier. Okay.

Than she had originally planned. So it seems to me something happened. Yeah. They all assumed she was just tired of the au pair dig and we're like, oh, she just wants to come back and do something else. Uh-huh. It sounds like it's adding up to something bad happened. and she was like, I want to get the fuck up out of here.

Yeah. So later, Frank and Susan, her employers, really only released statements through lawyers. Like, they don't speak about her. Their lawyer, Martin Weinberg said of, like, he said of these letters, quote, I don't know whether the letters represent her overall feelings, but if those were her feelings, she was able to not have them interfere with the relationship with Frank and Susan's children, which is the cornerstone of any au pair relationship. So that's saying something good about her.

Yeah, it's saying like if, you know, if that is how she was feeling that something terrible happened, she wanted to come home, she didn't want to do this anymore. It wasn't affecting how she was taking care of the kids. So that's good on her. Right. Especially at 20 to like put your game face on. To have that like emotional maturity to be able to just be like, I got to do my job. Yeah.

And she must have really loved the kids too, I'm sure. Like, our pairs tend to become very close to the kids because they're with them so much. Right. So June 21st was the evening that she disappeared and was not seen again until she was found murdered. June 21st. June 21st. She was out at Zanzibars celebrating because it was during the summer solstice. Now, to us, we're like, cool, summer solstice fun. Right. It's a huge holiday celebration in Sweden.

Oh, okay. I was like, is that a big deal here? Because I wasn't aware. Because you know here we're just like, cool, a long day. Right. it's the longest day of the year. So in Sweden, it's a huge celebration of that. That's fun. It's often referred to as midsummer. They dance around May polls. They put greenery on buildings and such. There's a tradition also that says if a girl picks seven different flowers in silence on midsummer night and puts them under her pillow, she will dream of your future husband. That's kind of cool. And a bitch is here to say that a bitch would do it.

I know you would. I think it's just fun and whimsy. I love it. It is. I love a good whimsy. Exactly. You got to love some whimsy in your life. And Karina was out with her friends, her au pair friends from Sweden.

They're all celebrating this summer solstice. It's like a big deal. It's a time to celebrate. So this was a Friday night. The bars in Boston are always hopping on a Friday night, especially a night in summer. We all know this. In 1988, Boston magazine described Zanzibars. which is not open anymore.

It's on Boylston Street across from Boston Commons, and Boston Magazine described it as, quote, This New Dance Club is a Banana Republic Fantasy, complete with palm fronds, wicker setes, and waitresses in khaki hot pants. The music is numbingly dumb disco for white people who can't keep time. In other words, goofy suburban fun. Okay.

Cacky hot pants? Sounds fucking off. Do those two? words even go together. They sure do. You know where they come together? At Zanzibar. Do you know what it is now?

What is it? I don't know what it is now, actually. I feel like, I was actually asking, I feel like I heard that it was club cafe, but I could be wrong. That's a gay bar and it is lots of fun. Oh, maybe. Maybe, actually. I'll have to look that up and tell you for sure on the next episode.

So Karina was loving Zanzibars. They had gone a few times before this one. That's kind of like the people who were. went there said that like they knew the Swedish nanny group. Yeah. Like they came there a lot. Because they're probably gorgeous and have accents and they're all beautiful. Yeah. It's like so. They all wear their khaki hot pants together. No way. This night she was wearing a dark t-shirt with a sparkly silver sweater on top and tight shiny silver pants. And that's why this story resonates to me because a bitch loves some fancy pants. And that's why, too, these, what we'll see is we have a lot of eyewitness testimony,

a lot of people saying, I saw her in this place, I saw her in that place. That's why these, I think that's why these witnesses are taken a little more seriously, because as we know, eyewitness testimony can be unruly. Shite. So actual shite. Yeah. It can be real, like, unclear. So, but I think the fact that she was wearing such like a bright, shiny outfit with shiny silver pants, I think helps a little bit. Because you remember that. So shiny. Good to know that if I ever went missing on the night of our show, I would easily be identified.

Yeah, you would. They'd be like her pants. You hear that murderer? She stood out. So she went there with three friends. I found a couple of things that say like she went with three friends. She went with a bigger group. Most of the things I saw said three.

Okay. She got wasted. Don't we all? It's Friday night. It's your fucking. You have the next day off. let's get it, sis. Black out.

And you know what? And again, I'm not pointing this out to like shame her in any way or sort or put any kind of connotation that like what happened is in any way her fault or something like that. I just want to put that out there. Right. I'm just saying she was definitely intoxicated. By multiple accounts, she was like real down in the, yeah. So a bartender said he was actually serving her water by the end without her knowledge

because she was just too drunk and he was like, I'm just going to keep giving you water. We have all been there. Or cranberry juice. And another bartender suggested, oh, that's so much sugar. But if you just hand somebody cranberry juice, they think that it's a drink. Oh, that would fuck them up. It's a tactic of mine. That sugar will make it worse. So that, and then another bartender actually suggested to that bartender, they were like, you need to stop serving her, like right now. And that bartender was like, yeah, she's

getting water. Don't worry about it. But like, that's how bad it goes. that the bartenders were like, yo, you need to take care of that. Right, right, right. At some point, she passed out in the ladies' room. Oh, no. At another point, an employee said they were told to find a ride for a girl who was passed out on one of the high bar tables. And when he took a second to finish something and came back, she was gone.

He said this was Karina. He had seen her. So she was passing out everywhere. She was in rough shape. But you know what? Where were her friends? I mean, that's what I'm saying. I don't leave your drunk friends passed out anywhere.

You don't leave your drunk friends, man. She left the club or was escorted out. There was two different stories that I think they were getting ready to escort her out and she left on her own. Okay. It was somewhere around 3 a.m. So there was differing reports. Well, was everything closed at this point? Yeah, everything's pretty much closed at this point.

But again, this was 96. Right. One report says a male friend of hers who she should. went to the club with saw her in a gray Mitsubishi outside the club. Okay. And that he was like, what the fuck? And he saw two men in the car with her. And he was like, hey, like, no, no, no. He talked to and he did an interview and he was like, hey, you come with us. Like, you come back with us. Right. And that one of the guys in the car said, quote, get away from the car, you little shit, or I'll crush your fucking head. That's a lot. It seems like a disproportionate response.

Sure does. Sure does. But like go off, I guess. I'd be like, uh, my friend's in there. So I'll crush your head, but. Yeah, not a good thing. So other reports from bouncers say she tried to get back in at least once. And then she realized her friends were not outside yet, but they wouldn't let her back in because they won't do that. They're not going to let you back in, especially when you're really intoxicated. Which I have a problem with. They should at least go back in and get your fucking friend for you. But that, yeah, I think they should go in and get your friend for you for sure. I understand not being let back in. Yeah, I was going to say, because letting back in is a huge liability. I 100% get that, but you should not be outside by yourself as a male or female at 3 a.m. No. I mean, that's a fault on everybody in that situation. Yeah. 100%. It's certainly not the bouncer's fault or responsibility to like take care of your ass. But, you know, it would be nice if they would go in and get your friend if you're out there. I mean, if you're out there. I mean, if it's, certainly. I mean, it's not. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, If I was a bouncer, I would.

Yeah. I mean, sure. You're just a nice person, though. Thank you. Other reports, or excuse me, in an article about the case, one au pair said foreign au pairs knew each other and they went out together. But they said they would arrive in a pack together. But once they got there, it was like every man or woman for themselves.

Like, see ya. And that was it. Right. So they had like an understanding. They're going to find somebody to leave with or to hang out with or to get drunk with. And that's it. Like they're not really focused on what the other ones are doing. That's at least what one article said.

Okay. So she decided, again, in a highly intoxicated state, to wander around trying to get home. Okay. This is when witnesses come into play. And again, it's all got to be taken with a little grain of salt because eyewitness testimony is real tough, as we know. Right. Right. Some witnesses saw her dancing.

Now, this is something that a lot of them say. so I do take this one as probably happening. I know exactly what you're going to say. Some witnesses say they saw her dancing with a homeless man in an alley. She was. And she was like dancing, singing. They were having a great time. Like she was having her own little party in the alley.

Have you ever walked home drunk through the streets of Boston? Yes. You'll end up singing with a homeless man. Yeah, I mean, sure. There's one specific homeless man that sings a song about your outfit these days. I love that. I love him so much. They also saw her walking down Tremont Street

and some people said they saw her getting into a gray car with as many as four guys in it like that original report about the gray Mitsubishi that her male friend said he saw her in. So it is interesting that a gray car gets brought into this a few times because it is always interesting

when there's one common thread that keeps, even if it changes slightly that it's in there. Right. Witnesses said they heard them that the ones that saw the men in the car said that they saw these guys trying to get her to come to an after party with them. Okay. But again, they also saw her on Tremont Street. They saw her dancing with a homeless man.

Like, she was everywhere. Right. It should be noted that at this time of night, when the bars are closing and everyone is pouring onto the streets, it's fucking mayhem. Oh, yeah. It's hell. Driving through there when the bars let out is a fucking nightmare. that everyone from Boston has endured at one point or another. There's drunk people slamming on cars.

They're walking in front of cars. They're trying to get taxis and ubers. They're fighting. It's insane. It's my favorite. That used to be my favorite. Oh, sure. It's your favorite when you're part of it.

When you're trying to drive through it, I've never been on that end. Nobody will tell you that's their favorite. If you're trying to drive through that mayhem, it is horrific. So bars close around 2 a.m. though. So around 3 a.m. it wouldn't have been quite as chaotic. It would have probably just been like leftover drunk people. Right. She was alive at 3 a.m. Witnesses saw her and she was speaking to at 3 a.m. Witnesses said they saw her speaking to a man named Erb Witten. He was known around as the guy who wore a superman shirt and had the same shirt for his dog. And that night he was wearing the superman. shirt. His dog was also there. His dog is a large white pyrenees. They wore matching shirts because he said he thought it would help him pick up ladies. Okay. I mean, an interesting approach. It's a good conversation starter. I don't know if I'm going to go home with you because of it, but.

Well, the weird thing is, too, that he lived in Andover. So he lived over half an hour north of Boston. Right. So he would say he would come down when the bar. were closing with his dog so he could start like trying to pick up drunk girls and it's like okay so wait at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. you're driving over 30 minutes with your dog to walk down the street and try to pick up ladies you know what I'm here to say it I'm here to state it for the record that's a little skeevy it is it's a little and by a little I mean a lot yeah and again he's going to become a suspect later so we're going to talk to about him tomorrow but in further detail, but like just we'll set that scene for you.

K-K. So witnesses said she left an alley with a big construction worker type in his 40s with wavy hair and a small dog. That was another thing they saw. Okay. So people are seeing her with two separate people with dogs, it's like, this gets weird. And the dog that the, excuse me, the Superman guy had, that was a big dog, right? That was a large dog apparently.

So you can't get the two swapped. Okay. So witnesses also told police that. Karina was seen in front of a store 24 at Mass Ave and Havillin Street between 3.30 and 4 a.m. on Saturday, June 22nd. Okay. So now we're up to between 3.30 and 4. Well, now she's like traveling like pretty quick.

Exactly. That'd be a lot to walk. Now, after her 3.30 to 4 a.m. siting on Saturday, June 22nd, she's missing. Right. No one has anywhere about severe. It was 30 hours from when she was last seen to when she was. found on Sunday morning. Oh, man. Frank and Susan, the couple she was working for, had no idea initially that she was missing because it was the weekend. She wasn't due to report to their home

for work until Monday. And they aren't keeping tabs on her on the weekends, supposedly. So like, why would they care? Right. June 23rd, which was Sunday, in the morning, a homeless man was digging in a dumpster behind 1091 Boylston Street. He was, you know, looking for cans and bottles and like scraps, anything he was looking for. He went to pull out a big black

trash bag and noticed it was super heavy. Okay. And he was about to toss it away, but then he was like, what the fuck is in here? Because he said it weighed over 40 pounds. And he was like, this is a huge thing. What is this? So of course he's curious. He's like, what the fuck is this? Maybe it's a treasure.

And so he opens the bag and immediately sees a human arm. I can't even imagine how terrifying that must be. This human arm had nail polish on the fingernails. It was a clear human arm. He went hauling ass down Boylston Street for help, like screaming. Eventually got the police on the scene, and Detective Tommy O'Leary was first on the case.

Okay. It is not a Boston crime tale unless there's a detective named Tommy O'Leary. Tommy O'Leary is a hometown hero. Oh, that's the most Boston. Wicked. Wicked. Wicked. It's wicked Boston.

What they discovered when they opened that bag was a true fucking nightmare. They found a body. Well, half a body. Specifically, they found the top half of a woman's body. It had been completely washed and cleaned of makeup, blood, everything, and had been cleaned down. That is the most terrifying thing. I can't fathom. And there was no blood.

Like, there was no blood around. So this was clearly, like, a second crime scene. Like, they had brought her here. They hadn't killed her there. The thought of somebody, like, taking off somebody's makeup and, like, cleaning them afterward, it freaks me the fuck out. That is such another level of pathology with this killer. And it's also, I don't know.

It just feels a little personal. It does feel very personal. I mean, it does make sense that, like, you don't want your DNA so I could see how it's not personal, but it also feels very personal. Yeah. It really does. And so specifically, it had been sawed just above the hip bone below the ribs with what the medical examiner would later confirm was likely an electric power tool, not a hand saw. Yeah. They thought it was probably a circular saw.

Oh, my God. The cut was neat and clean, except for one piece of the hip bone that was nicked. Okay. But other than that, it was a very clean cut. A couple of the sources I read said that she may have been alive up to 24 hours after last scene at the 3.4 a.m. hour, which would put her death at what could be as late as 3 a.m. Sunday. Okay. So there's a long period of time where she could have been alive.

Right. Right, right. There was evidence on her neck that she had been strangled, and that seemed like that was the cause of death. When the news reported the body, Frank and Susan called the police to say the body might be their operas. Now, there was a description of Karina on the news, but no photo, obviously, because she was unidentified at that point in just a torso. So why did Frank and Susan just all of a sudden be like, that must be Karina? Like, oh, a blonde girl in a dumpster? That is weird. Maybe she normally did communicate with them over the weekend and then because she didn't, they thought it was a little bit weird. Yeah. I mean, they never came out and said that. Yeah. But it's a possibility. There's other reports that Frank called the morgue on Sunday when the reports were released to check to see if it was Karina. In either way, it's strange to me. Or maybe he had gone over there on the weekend, like maybe he normally did and she wasn't there. And that's why they called it.

there's a whole mess of weirdness here ash is always thinking well and so because of their connection to her and that they were essentially acting as family and employer to her right they were of course the first to be questioned um immediately they became uncooperative and got a lawyer oh okay immediately well now the lawyer thing to me that's just smart because like shit can get shady fast yeah so i can't fault them for wanting to get a lawyer but being uncooperative is pretty bad in this case. Yeah. You brought this girl from Sweden into your home,

trusted her to raise your children, let her stay in your downtown loft for free. Like when she's chopped in half and left in a dumpster, you should maybe cooperate with the police. Why do you think they were being uncooperative? I don't know. I honestly don't know. I don't think it's a good idea either way.

I mean, if they're guilty, that's a really bad idea. Yeah. And if they're innocent, it's a really bad idea. It's like just if you're guilty, at least fake it. Do you think that they were perhaps uncooperative because, not because they're guilty of murdering her, but because they, or at least one of them, is guilty of the something terrible that happened and they didn't want that to be leaked out? That's definitely, I think something terrible happened could possibly have to do with

my gut is telling me something to do with Frank. But I obviously have no basis for that except for my own speculation. Right, right. It could also be that they hired her through illegal means. So maybe they're trying to keep their head above water there. Yep. I was going to ask that to. But I don't really know.

But then what's weird is on Monday, the day after her body's discovery, suddenly there's a strange fire in Dover in a dumpster right behind Frank and Susan's house. That is a little weird. Yeah. So the authorities are called. And after putting it out, they try to determine if there's like any kind of. of evidence that could lead to Karina. Because at this point, they're already like, excuse me.

Nothing in the dumpster led to her. But there's nothing that says how burned everything was or if they could tell with 100% certainty that there was nothing that belonged to Karina. They didn't find remains, like human remains. Right, because that's detectable. Yeah, but they didn't find. It's not like you could tell if maybe her belongings were torched. Right.

Maybe something was. So again, we're going to go further into like our thoughts on that in the next. episode but they then talked to the last person that she was seen with which was the homeless man who she was seen dancing and singing with okay um this was after she got kicked out of the the bar uh his name was Juan Polo and he was probably interviewed I'm assuming as like a formality yeah because he clearly didn't have the means or location to perform a bisection clean right right clean the blood and body and then dispose of it in two different locations it seems like They probably just wanted to see like if she went off with somebody after dancing with him or blah, blah, blah, blah.

And obviously, she's one of the last people to see her. They have to go talk to him. They got to get that information. But I'm assuming they weren't really looking at him as the guy who did it. Yeah. He later in interviews said that he tried to tell her to find her friends and not be alone that night. And he said, quote, she was so sweet, such a nice person, an angel. Oh, that makes my heart hurt.

Doesn't that just like, oh. Because it sounds like she was. She was like dancing with him, having a good time. So what's weird to me, too, with this next suspect. So the next suspects, I'm sure everybody's wondering, what happened to the guy with the Superman shirt in the dog? Yeah, Superman. What happened to Herb?

So he was actually stopped that night by the police on the way home. Right. He got a speeding ticket. He was on his way home to Andover. Why you speed in at 3 a.m., boy. Yeah, and it's pretty strange, again, to drive to Boston, like over a half hour away, just without construction, which is never the case, is always construction. Always. Just to walk your dog at 3 a.m. to pick up girls.

Like, that's a little weird. It's bizarre. Either way, he got a speeding ticket, which is pointed to as his alibi. Which cannot necessarily be an alibi. Because what if she's in the trunk? And how many times have we heard that happen? Exactly. And it's like, so you're not going to search the car for a speeding ticket.

And I don't think I didn't see anything about them searching his car. I never read anything about him searching his car. Right. And honestly, what reason would they have? Yeah. And if she was alive up to 24 hours after she was last seen, she was alive at this point. Right. She could have been in the trunk.

Because it's very easy. Because they look at it as, okay, he got a speeding ticket at this time. So there's no way that he could have killed her and done this before he left. And it's like, okay, well, the dude comes into Boston at 3 a.m. every fucking weekend just to pick up chicks with his dog. Right. So what is it, why is it weird to assume that he would bring her home, do what he has to do, and then drive back to dump her? Right. He does it all the time.

Right. Like, this is not a strange trip for him. It's, I mean, she could have been gagged in the trunk. She could have been incapacitated, not able to scream. They would have never known she was there. And she could have been passed out in the trunk. Who knows? because she was so inebriated, she could have passed out.

Exactly. That's the thing. So you're totally right because she's already passed out twice. Exactly. There's a lot of things that could have been happening here. So this man, Herb, actually, this is where it gets very weird. He was cleared after this alibi, all that. About six months, between six months less than a year later, he completed suicide.

Right. On web sleuths, someone claiming to have lived a now. door to him at the time. They had a lot of information about it. They said he saw the Emmy and police show up to the suicide scene. And when he asked the officer, like what was going on because it was his neighbor, the officer said it wasn't likely a suicide because it was very violent the scene. But then there was no mention to this anywhere in news reports later.

So I'm like a cover up perhaps because everything I read said that he slit his own throat. Okay. But it's like, is there a cover-up going on of some sort? A violent up a crime till it, like, clean up, I would think. It's very odd. It just sounds, all of this is very strange. And so they have, so what we're, so I, I know I said I wasn't going to go into the suspects, but I think we're just not going to, like, discuss the theories in depth, really. Yeah, yeah. But I want to, like, put them out there so you can all, like, kind of munch on them until tomorrow. Think about them per minute. So this is when they start kind of grasping at straws a bit because leads are not panning out right they're looking at I mean the so far the employers

are acting strange they're uncooperative but there's not much else to go on but they don't have anything on them and it's like so what can they do we're looking at herb well now he completed suicide and also they had cleared him already after his speeding ticket alibi apparently so this one confuses me so they started looking at a suspect who lived close by to where carino was found this new suspect was a guy by the name of John I don't know how to say his name. Zoas. How is it spelled?

Z-E-W-I-Z-Z. Z-E-W-I-Z-Z. Zuis? It sounds good. Well, his real name is John McSweeney, but that's not metal, and that's what he was going for. For real? He was a member of a band called Sleep Chamber. Sleep Chamber, by my research, is labeled as an industrial techno-tribal band. Aren't we all?

Doesn't this remind, this immediately reminded me of the Parks and Rec episode where Leslie goes to that radio station and the guy is like, now for the lesbian Afro-Noegian group duo, Nefertides Fiord. That's exactly what that's like. I forgot about that episode. That's literally, I immediately thought of it. That's exactly. That's it. Nefertiti's fjord. Oh, that's great.

But it's real, so that's fun. Like, this is a real bad. Can you say what they describe themselves as again? Just one more time. They describe themselves, or they are described as techno, what, industrial, techno, tribal. Okay. I like it. I'm here for it.

And the themes of their music, as well as John's personal image and persona, are centered around things like S&M and bondage. He loved dabbling in magic and learning about the occult. He was just like, by all means, kind of like a strange dude by any, by Normie's accounts, you know? Okay. So, that's a vibe. This band even had fetish stage dancers that they would bring on tour called the barbiturates. That's what they called the dancers.

The barbiturates. I just got, I fell into like a whole reading about this guy. I was like, what the fuck? I feel like, who wouldn't? It's amazing. Honestly, nothing is really, like, bad here so far. It's just, like, strange. Yeah.

For a norm. For a norm. But in normal society, S&M and bondage are consensual when done correctly. And magic and the occult are. not signs of a like murderer. You know, like this is just, I think his proximity to the dump site, he had a known heroin addiction for years. He had a couple of run-ins with the law, nothing like violent, it seems, from what I looked.

And his taste for the strange and unusual definitely marked him as a person of interest. But you kind of feel bad because, like, he kind of just got sucked into it. And he was obviously struggling. Yeah, he was struggling. They never actually charged him or labeled him as, like, an actual suspect. it was just that they brought him in for questioning and then he kind of got labeled like he kind of the stigma happened oh that sucks and people even pointed to a lyric in a song he released after korena's murder and it had a line about hanging at zandabars but like it was boston in the 90s and he lived

near zanthas who's going to say he lived right there so it's like of course he was cleared he was never arrested for it or anything but people obviously still talk about if he could be part of it um because he's made like strange interviews and stuff where he where i think he's He's just like a strange guy. So he just talks about weird shit. And people are like, hmm. I mean, whatever. You know.

So going back to the fact that she did briefly date a Boston cop and that it seems like there's just no leads or no evidence of anything. They can't find anything. They can't find the crime scene. They can't find her bottom half. They can't. They had no DNA, nothing. Boston PD in the 90s was corrupt as fuck. You don't say.

Yeah, it was just not. By their own, like, these are their own quotes about their, their shit department in the 90s. One quote says, the hallmark values of the operating culture are self-interest, resentment, and suspicion. Love that. We have no defined mission. Everything goes into a black hole. Okay. And the only standards around here are double standards.

Awesome. Perfect. They were very much into the, we cover each other's back, very much into, I want that suspect to be the guy, so I'm going to make it so with the evidence kind of thing. Like it was very not a good, a good situation. It doesn't sound like it. When they come out and say that, you know, she dated a Boston police officer briefly, we're not, you know, that's fine.

He was cleared. Everything was fine. And it's like, yeah. Like, I'm not saying he did it. but like, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, like, can you tell me a little more about it? Because I don't know about that. And so basically now, after all of these people are getting questioned, everything's

happening, that's it. There's nothing. There's nothing after that. It went cold. And that's it. And now that all there is are there's just theories about what could have possibly even happening. Was the terrible thing a, and I'm just going to sneak this in here and we'll definitely get further into it tomorrow, but was this terrible thing that happened, you know, a sexual

assault of some sort? Right, right. Was she possibly pregnant or did she think she was pregnant? And that's why she was sawed in half to remove any evidence of a pregnancy. Yep. You can remove a uterus by sawing someone in half. And it's like they were washed clean. She was washed clean and she, you know, that was removing any kind of DNA. There's a lot of different theories of what could have possibly been happening here. And like I said, a lot of, a lot of au pairs that worked for Frank Rapp or knew of him, basically all of them said he's very creepy. Okay.

He acts very creepy to us. Like, that was the general consensus. We don't love that. We hate that. Yeah, definitely not. And so eventually, Carina was sent home to Sweden. Oh, good. I'm glad.

So her family could have a proper burial. And at her funeral, everyone wore brightly colored happy clothing. Aw. Because they were like, that's just who she was. She would have wanted that. They didn't want to mourn her loss with dark, sad colors because they said like she was just a rainbow in life. Stop. Yeah.

And a really sad, like, kick in the gut. Great. Is Detective Tommy O'Leary, who worked this case, said to the Boston Herald about this. that when he talked to her father and said, you know, we're shipping her back to you. Her father said, what am I getting back? Oh, God. And he said he was like absolutely stunned. He was like, fuck, I didn't know I was going to have to answer this.

Right. And he said, quote, you're getting her upper torso. You're getting her beautiful face. Oh, my heart. Isn't that just like, oh. Yeah, that's a lot. My soul. I know.

And from what I can tell, this wasn't someone that's like, to me, it doesn't seem like some unhinged crime. It seems, it seems, it seems, it seems, it seems methodical to you. It seems very calculated. It seems like someone who is, I don't want to say in control, but like in control. It sounds like somebody who they strangled her. Yeah. They didn't mutilate her in the sense of like, they cut her in half.

But I think that was, that was for a purpose. That was to. something. Why else would you need to do that? And strangulation, not to keep being like personal, personal, but strangulation is a very personal way of murdering somebody. It certainly is. I mean, of course, strangers will do it too, but like, in general, it's a very personal thing to do to someone. And it doesn't mutilate their face. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't draw blood generally. And it's, it just seems to me like this is someone, you, if they really took a power tool to saw her and

half and they did it in a very clean way where the only bone they were going to have to cut through is the spine. And, you know, it's to me that to seem like, yeah. Or you've done it before. An unhinged person is going to saw someone in half with a fucking hand saw. It's going to be jagged. It's going to be fucked. There's going to be blood everywhere.

That person's going to be mangled and they're just going to toss them in a dumpster. It reminds me of the black dahlia case. It does. It's kind of like the black dahlia where it's like, but then it different. It differs from the Black Dahlia, and I think our guest tomorrow will be able to go into this little further. But it differs from the Black Dahlia because the Black Dahlia was like posed out in the open. When everything was there. It was a message being sent.

Yep, yeah. But she was putting a trash bag and putting a dumpster in an alleyway and Boylston to hopefully not be found. Right. So it's a weird, like, dichotomy, but it's also kind of rings very familiar. to each other. Right, right. You know, it's weird. But to me, the pathology of this person is that they are in control. Yes. That they are unhinged in their, in some way. And they're in control of the process. I think you're right. Which, you know, which to me, I don't know. I don't know enough about herb. I don't know enough about, you know, there's just not a lot to, there's not a

lot to go on here. Right. That's the thing. What's, another weird thing is that, Susan Nichter, the wife, Frank's wife, she's a painter, like I said before. And her site is now, her painter, her artist's site is now down right now. And it's been down since like 2018 or something. But there was a lot of talk about the paintings that she would paint because she has a ton of paintings. And apparently there are a few that certainly look like Karina. and a few of them have a lot of themes that make it look like half of a body and somebody, you know, running away from a man.

Yeah, that's a lot. And just very creepy themes that seem to be like a lot of people look at it and they're like, I'm disturbed by that and it kind of looks like you're painting what happened. Right. To me, and again, we'll talk about it tomorrow. But like, to me, I'm like, I can go either way with that. Well, because art can be like an escape for some people and like a therapeutic tool. So I think you could argue that side of it. Exactly.

Because she knew this person. I mean, this girl lived at her house for four months. I mean. Yeah. And who knows what her relationship with her was. With her was. So it's like she could be in her mind and she could subconsciously be painting a woman that resembles her because that's just a trauma that she's dealing with still. Yeah.

Or it could be her way of. getting out the trauma of what actually happened that she knows what happened and a lot of people think that could be it you can't see her paintings anymore which bum me out oh that sucks yeah but uh i mean i'll look and see if anybody has them somewhere like yeah but so that's basically what we have on koreana right now for the general like overview of the case okay because again that's all the details i could find anything else was kind of hearsay and i don't want to be putting out like bullshit rumors. No, we don't. So what we're going to do is

we'll end here. And tomorrow with our guest, we're going to go into back over the suspects. We're going to hear what they have to say. We're going to talk about the theories and all that good stuff. I'm excited. Me too. And in the meantime,

why don't you guys go ahead and follow us on Instagram? At Morbid Podcast. Follow us on Twitter. At a morbid podcast. Follow us on Spotify by typing in morbid a true crime podcast and hitting the little follow button when you're prompted. Do it.

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More big cool and it's your crime podcast. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you... Keep it weird. But not so weird that you try to go out and you're fun, fancy pants and you don't have a good time. Yeah. And not so weird that you chop someone in half. That's not cool.

Not that fucking weird. That's real weird. That's for sure. Bye. Bye.