Morbid - The Tragic Story of Barbara Daly Baekeland

Episode Date: August 22, 2021

Ash brings us the story of Barbara Daly Baekeland, a New York socialite who ended up being murdered by her son Anthony “Tony” Baekeland. Barbara had a long history of mental illness and eventually her son did as well, some argue Tony’s mental illness began when his mother tried to “cure him of his homosexuality” by taking him to bed herself. This was definitely a hard one to get through, but is a fascinating case for sure. As always, thank you to our sponsors: HelloFresh: Get up to fourteen free meals—including free shipping!—when you use code morbid14 at HelloFresh.com/morbid14 The Jordan Harbinger Show: You can’t go wrong with adding The Jordan Harbinger Show to your rotation.  It’s incredibly interesting, there’s never a dull show. Search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! Curology: You can start your Curology journey just like I did with a free 30-day trial at Curology.com/MORBID Aurate: For 15% off your first Aurate purchase, go to AurateNewYork.com/morbid15 and use promo code morbid15 Monday.com: To start your free 14-day trial go to monday.com/podcast Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Elena. I am Ash. And this right here is morbid. This is morbid pre-Hurricane. Pre-Hurricane, guys, we're about to get a gnarly hurricane. We never get hurricanes up here. It's been 30-something years since we got one. Yeah, it's been like 30 years pretty much. Yeah, so who knows what's about to happen. New England doesn't know what to do here. We know what to do with lots of snow. We don't know what to do with anything else. And I feel like everybody just took the same precautions that they do with snow. It's like, the milk, the eggs, the bread, the milk, the bread. That's all we know what to do. We're like, charge up all your stuff and get some eggs and milk and bread.

Get a portable charger. Just there we go. Elena sent to me the other day. I was like, thanks, Bob. She's like, make sure you're stocked up. I was like, get your groceries. Make sure you get them. At Instacart.

Thank you. That's right. Yay. But yeah, we don't know what to do. So it's going to be weird. We're going to get our two episodes out. It's been a little bit of a weird. weird week. So we're going to get our two episodes. It's just like always a weird week because we are who we are.

Like we're weird, you're weird. You get it. They're always going to come out. That's all we know. They're coming out. We don't know when. I'm sorry. But we are definitely getting them out because we're going to beat the hopefully we're not going to lose power. But I have a feeling we will. No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't put it out into the universe. I mean, it's a hurricane. I hate losing power. So I don't think anybody really likes it. Some people might think it's fun and spooky. I just think it's fun and spooky, but I think it's far too quiet. Yeah, I don't like it at all. It stresses me out.

It's like you can hear the silence. With kids. Yeah, fuck that. It's not fun to lose power. Because you're like, I don't know what you did pre-Ipad. What's going on? No, not actually. It's just a lot.

So don't worry your episodes will be out, but let's see what happens. Let's go. Let's get this one going. All of us, let's just see what happens. I'm stressed. All right. Well, this one was actually super duper highly requested like a few weeks ago. For some reason, like 42 people were like, you need to do this case. Is there like any date that corresponds with that? No. Just happen to happen. I love when that happens. Well, I think I like, everybody knows I love an old Hollywood case. That's true you do. This is not necessarily old Hollywood, but this woman has like a Hollywood guy. She's like a socialite. So yeah, I think people are like, Ash, you love that to do it. This is a perfect kind of thing for you. It is. We're going to trigger warning this a little bit. bit because this unfortunately does involve possible incest and sexual abuse. So if you are going to be

uncomfortable listening to that, which probably all of you are, but if you don't want to listen to that, then I will see you for Elena's episode, I guess. I am glad I brought my coffee. Yeah, you're welcome. Because wow. So we're going to be talking today about Barbara. I think you say at Baceland. I looked it up and somebody said Beaclund. Somebody said Bakelund. I think it's Beaclund. I'm going to go with Baceland. Barbara Baceland. That sounds right. It does to me. It feels right. It just feels right coming out of my mouth.

It does. But before Barbara became a Bakelin, she was born Barbara Daly on September 28th, 1922 to parents Nini and Frank Daly. The roaring 20s. The roaring 20s. She came in with a bang. She grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Hey.

Which every source I saw was like, she grew up in Boston. And I was like, Cambridge is in Boston. Cambridge is Cambridge. But hello, Barbara. Hi, Barbara. Happy to have you. Am I? No.

No. I did not look into this case before I said any of this. Yeah, it's okay. We'll see. We'll see if I evolve. You'll find out along the way. Well, Barbara's mother Nini unfortunately had her fair share of struggles when it came to mental health. She actually had a nervous breakdown just a couple years before giving birth to Barbara. Oh, boy. So she was going through it. And Barbara's father also seemed to struggle with his mental health or I don't know if it was that or if his wife's struggles kind of just took a toll on him. Probably a mixture of both, I'm assuming. And when Barbara was 10 years old, Frank ended up killing himself. Oh.

He went out into the closed garage and he turned on the family car. So ultimately, he died from the fume inhalation. And people think the reason that he did it that way was so that it could still look like an accident. Oh, wow. So then he was like taking care of Barbara and Nini and they could get an insurance payout. Oh, that's really sad. It is really sad.

But luckily, they were left with enough money to kind of make ends meet. And they actually, Nini decided to use the money to move to New York. New York City for a while, and they actually lived in the Delmonico Hotel. Oh, wow. Which is just like fancy, fancy. That is fancy. Yeah, but I must have been a good insurance payout. There you go.

Now, growing up, Barbara was considered one of New York's 10 most beautiful girls, which really helped her work her way to a modeling career. That'll do it. I also want to know, like, who decides. I was going to say that somebody just come to the door and be like, we chose and you. Hey, you. You're beautiful. Yeah.

You're real pretty. Only nine others. Like, yeah. Wow. It's like, how does that happen? Is it a contest? You had it. Is it like a pageant of some sort? I didn't see anything about a pageant. They were just like, she's one of the 10 most beautiful girls. They literally just picked her off the street. It's like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. It just happens, you know. Hey, we saw you coming out of the grocery store. You're real pretty. I'd say you're prettier than, you know, 90% of women in this place. Hey. Well, it also, it makes sense for Barbara because she was born on the Libra Virgo Cusp, which is known as the Cusp of Beauty. Oh, look at that. I didn't know that there was like, like, I knew there were cusps obviously in astrology, but I didn't know they were like cusp of beauty.

I had no idea. That was a thing. So then I fell into a whole reading all about different cusps and what they mean. I was born on the cusp of energy, which makes a lot of sense. And I believe yours was like prosperity. So like, it's off to you, bitch. Hey, look at that. But that's not what this is about. So anyways. It's not about our cusp. It's not about Barbara's cusp of beauty. And that's weird though. That makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. Like they line up. She's beauty. And it's funny because she went on to model for Vosbeau. It's not. And it's funny because she went on to model for Vos. Bogue in Harper's Bazaar. Wow, get it. So that Caspa Beauty just really nailing it for her. Yeah. And then because she was modeling and one of the most prettiest girls there, you know, she started getting invites to like super exclusive parties where she'd hang out with like New York's top socialites at the time. Oh, she's just fancy. She was super fancy. Like she just made her way on up there. Now, while she was at one of those parties, she's like Timby Mortimer from the real house of New York. It's so funny because a Mortimer actually takes place in this. Oh, really? A mortimer takes. It takes place. So Mortimer makes an appearance.

And that's what I meant to say. Thank you. They take place in here. They take place here. I've had one glass of coffee and I'm usually on like three by this point in the day. And it was a mug, not even a glass. So she's really struggling. I'm really just not okay. Who is your coffee? I'm going to blame you. But yeah, she was hanging with those socialites. She was tinsleying it up. And while she was at one of those parties, she was introduced to Dana Andrews. I don't know if you've heard of him. No. I had an either. But apparently in the 40s,

he was a pretty big time deal. Oh, okay. He was an actor. He had starring roles in Laura, the best days of our lives, and state fair. Oh, okay. I see you over there looking it up. You're not going to recognize a single one of his movies because I just wanted to see him. Handsome dude.

Okay. Handsome dude. Okay. Handsome dude. He had some guy. Handsome dude. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Look her up. She was beautiful. I'm not going to deny that. There's a photo of him like holding a cigarette. like just looking at the camera. Like remember in the 40s when they were like, these won't kill you. Yeah. They just look cool. These are just sexy. These will make your sex appeal at a thousand.

Exactly. Well, Dana thought that Barbara's star potential was at a thousand and he invited her out to Hollywood with him thinking that she could do a screen test and he thought she had, like I said, star potential. She was going to make it big. Because here she is holding a cigarette just like him. You're looking sexy. That's what made star potential. That's all you needed in the 40s was a cigarette and like curled hair. I was literally. really going to say and good hair good coiff that's all you needed yeah good roller set and a sig yeah you're on to hollywood you go bea here you're gonna be a star let's get it yeah but anyways the screen test did not work out for our girl barbs oh unfortunately but you know she was out in california doing the damn thing

and she met this girl called cornelia bakeland um who was also known as dicky bakeland which i thought is just like adorable it's cute nickname wow because cornelia is such a pretty name yeah it is But she was the sister of this guy called Brooks Bakeland. And Cornelia thought Barbara would really hit it off with her brother. So she was like, let me introduce you guys. She was like, there's so much alliteration here. It needs to happen. Brooks and Babs, let's get it.

Brooks Babs, Baceland. You should have a baby. But Brooks was actually training to be a pilot with the Royal Canadian Air Force. Oh, okay. Just that. Yeah, very casual. Just living. And when they met, Sparks Flew, it was a Taylor Swift song.

Oh, I love it. Barbara was beautiful. Brooks was handsome and, like, ridiculous. wealthy and that's really all you need to build a good relationship obviously. There you go. That's it. Looks and money. Yep. And Brooks came from family money. His grandfather was Leo Baceland who essentially just invented plastic. Oh, that little thing. Like plastic was already a thing, but it wasn't great. Have you heard of it? I've... Plastic? I don't know. You guys use it? Sometimes. Yeah. I've seen it in store. Google it. You'll know. You might know. You might be like, oh, I've used that once in a time.

Or, you know, you might be a plastic sitting at the Mean Girls table. I mean, Google's table. Google it on the thing that is made out of plastic. Whoa, weird. Meta. I was literally just going to say that's so meta. Stop saying my words. Sorry. But yeah, so he invented, invented bakelight plastic, which is also known as, are you ready?

Polyoxybenzymethylmethelmethelngincholinhide. Killed it. Killed it. I don't think I did. Lost in the middle there. But basically it was the first plastic made from synthetic materials. And it was called the material of a thousand uses. It was just like the world's first sustainable plastic.

Yeah. But because of his grandfather's invention, Brooks had what he called fuck you money. Don't we all want that? Yes. That's the American dream. I'm just over here counting my fuck you money. Fuck you. Can you imagine?

That's the American dream. Yeah, it is. Fuck you money. He was like, I have money so I don't need to like listen to what anybody tells me what to do. I don't need to please anybody. This is my money and I can say fuck you with it. Fuck you money. I love it.

I'm here for it. I'm in here for it. But anyways, less on plastic and more on relationships. So even though they were both in love with each other, everything kind of started off with a lie because Brooks later claimed that the reason he married Barbara so quickly was because she told him that she was pregnant. Spoiler alert, she was not. E. So he and Barbara got married in California, but then they went back to New York City to celebrate or to celebrate to settle. To celebrate. Maybe not celebrate because, you know, lies. Because you know, lies. Because she lied. Because truth and consequences. That's why. Because lies and not responsibilities. But pretty early on, they started having problems, probably because everything was based on a lie.

They were constantly cheating on one another. Barbara was struggling mentally and spending a ton of money on psychiatrists and therapy appointments. But she was never really getting to the bottom of what was truly going on because it was only like the mid-40s at that point. Oh, that's sad. We hadn't really come a long way with mental health and everything like that. And the other thing that wasn't helping was that because of Brooks's status, they were just constantly under public scrutiny.

Like, everyone had an opinion about them. Everyone knew what was going on in their life. They're like top of the elite New York social chain. That must be so hard when you're struggling. Yeah, especially like with your mental health. I also just can't imagine, even if you weren't struggling with your mental health, I feel like it would cause you to. Oh yeah. For sure. Because you're just like under the like eyeball of everybody. Oh yeah. Whenever like strangers have opinions about who you are. as a person, it will get to your mental health. Yeah, it will. I think anybody can agree that has ever had strangers have an opinion about you. Yeah, because it's weird when strangers have an opinion about you. Yeah. They don't know you. No. Yeah. But they had a ton of rich and famous friends and it was more like

just keeping up with like the Chanel's and mortimers of society than keeping up with the Joneses. There was actually one night where they were out to dinner with some friends and this is really fucked up. This like made me really, really bad because if this happened to me, I would have like thrown a plate across the table. Brooks was at the table with all their friends and obviously Barbara was there. And he just was like, I would sleep with the next girl who walked in the room no matter what she looked like for a million dollars. Why offer up that information, sir?

What, sir? Maybe you should be single then, sir. I'm like really angry. Like, I would literally throw a plate at him. I'm not like one for violence, but, you know. No, but sometimes it's like, you know what? You're getting a plate thrown at you. Like, what the fuck?

I'd at the very least throw my pork chop at him. Yeah, I don't even like pork chop, so I'd throw them both at him. Yeah. Like, that's really fucked up to say. Why would you just randomly say that? Like, what? And I feel like it's like one of those statements that like the whole table goes silent and they're like, e-y-y-y-yx.

Was that a joke? Like, you're very bad at joking. What? Isn't that your wife? Want to walk that one back? I don't know. How do you come back from that one? Eilbrooks.

But to get back at him, Barbara decided that she was going to just hop in the, next car that came by. Wow, that's really ratcheting it up a notch. It really is, you know? Just like one for one. Okay. She hopped in a car with four guys inside and it just like sped off. They were like.

So instead of like tit for tat, it's like tit for ratat tat tat tat tat tat. I mean, it's the 40s. Rata tat, tat bitch. And she didn't come home until like much later that night. Oh my God. What the fuck? Barbara. It's also like guys, maybe you shouldn't be together.

Yeah. I feel like that's your side. Maybe you should just be. single if you want to live that New York crazy life. Wow. Now, there were other occasions where they would violently fight about things such as what restaurant to go to. I mean, yeah. There was, I was reading one article, it's not okay. There was one article where he literally had her in like a headlock and she was biting him. Oh my God. Because they couldn't decide what restaurant they wanted to go to. Like she wanted to go to one and he didn't want to go there. And that's what it escalated to. That's horrific. It's really sad.

And it's, I feel like that goes to show you like the struggles that she was having. Because it's like, how does it get from that, like, from like such a small argument to like that heightened? Oh, yeah. There's clearly stuff under the surface here and things that people don't know. Honestly, it shows what a fucking asshole he is. Yeah. Can you like help her out instead of putting her in a fucking headlock? Jeez.

Yeah. This whole thing is like, whoa. And I felt like reading throughout this whole thing, it was like Brooks was constantly being embarrassed by Barbara. But it's like he wasn't doing anything to help her. Yeah. Now, they had some of the biggest star. around that time coming to their parties too. So like these were people that you didn't want to be losing your shit in front of. Yeah, of course. Uh, Greta Garbo. Tennessee Williams. Oh.

Sam Green. No big deal. Like big ass stars. Yeah. People you might know. Yeah. So everything was just like really diabolical in front of all these like socialites and there's like drugs happening at these parties. Of course. They're drinking tons of alcohol. It's just like not the situation you need to be in when you're struggling. It's not just them like, you know, doing the Charleston or something. No. I mean, maybe. at the same time. But that's not it. That ain't it. That ain't it. It's more. Yeah, but, but wait, there's more. There's definitely more. And here's some more for you. Because things weren't really going any better in 1946 when Barbara found out she was pregnant for reals this time. And even after she gave birth to their son, Anthony, they were still cheating on each other and still carrying out

like long-term affairs. Cool. Yeah. So for the next 10 years, Barbara and Brooks would travel all around the world with their little Tony boasting about what an amazing child he was. He was a prodigy, they said. He was good at painting and writing. He was God's gift to the world. And so he learned from a young age that he could literally do nothing wrong and that there were no consequences in life. That's always good. Yeah, you know, you really want to set that up for your kid young. Yeah, that usually ends well. Yeah, right? Barbara and Brooks would show Tony off in front of their friends at parties, but when it came down to actually being there for their son emotionally and actually taking care of him, that was like the nanny's job. Yeah, of course. They're like the boarding school's job.

That's so sad. I read this article. It was written by a guy called David Leaf and he said, quote, as the family traveled from one chic destination to another in an endless round of idle summers, she and Brooks treated their son like a favorite toy to be picked up and put down at whim. Oh, that's really sad. So sad. Oh, that like hurts my heart. Yeah, because that's a baby. To just like treat your child. Like, let me show you off real quick. Now get away from me. And that's what it is. And especially like at that time period. and who they were hanging out with. It was like kids were just like shiny things to show off and not like actual human beings.

So you have to actually like nurture. Right. And be there for. And love and like teach wrong from right. Like kids are not convenient. No. Like and that's that's what I think everybody had to learn for a long time. I don't think anyone has kids to like make their life easier.

No. That definitely doesn't happen. And it's like it always makes me angry when people are like, wow, this is like really inconvenient for me. And it's like, yeah, no shit. That's what like it's another human. that you literally have to bring from like this little blob into an actual human. And you're solely responsible for them. And you are literally responsible for it. Of course,

it's not going to like fit into your life perfectly. Of course it's not going to be an easy job. You got to fit your life around it. Like taking care of my cats is a difficult job sometimes. And I'm like, whew, but like I chose to add them. Exactly. And got to take care of them. Yeah. I'll love them so much. They deserve it. They do. But friends of the family noticed odd behavior that didn't seem to be on Barbara and Brooks's radar coming from Tony. They saw him picking the legs off of crabs when they were at the beach. They noticed that he developed a stutter and they wondered if it was like to earn more attention from his parents. Oh, this hurts my heart. It's really sad. One friend even remembered that Brooks boasted about Tony pulling a fly's

wings off. Like he was doing a science experiment and not just like treating an animal cruelly. I know it's like a fly. But it's still like, especially when you put it along with ripping the legs off of crabs and stuff. It's like, yeah. Exactly. But he didn't see. concerned about like the cruelty aspect of that he seemed more concerned like oh what a brilliant mind that's exactly what it was like oh my son doing experiments yeah and it's like uh no it's like not exactly so now we're going to flash forward to 1967 the family's living in switzerland tony's 21 by this time and his parents find out that he is gay okay they are less than pleased oh that hurts my heart it's really fucked up tony had been experimenting with his sexuality for a long time um

While he was at a boys boarding school, that's when he did a lot of experimenting. And he actually told a psychologist that it started when he was eight years old. And that's something that happened to him at school. And that's when he started like exploring his sexuality. Oh, wow. It's like at eight years old. And something happened? He said because of an experience he had at boarding school at eight years old.

So it's like you wonder what that means. You kind of have to read into that a little bit. Yeah, it sounds ominous. It does. Now, Brooks seemed to have known for a while, but Barbara literally could not handle the news. She almost fell apart. Now, at the time, Tony was dating this guy from Australia, who he had met in Morocco. Like, what a life.

Just, you know, I met this guy in Morocco. Just living. Oh, it was just in Morocco. Yeah, I just met my man's in Morocco. Now, this man's was Jake Cooper. Jake was a really seedy dude, really shitty guy. He was said to have been bringing Tony down a really bad path. He introduced him to a ton of dread.

rugs. They like did LSD regularly together, which when you're doing that regularly, it's like not awesome. Yeah, like super, not very casual. Not great for your psyche. No. They also were doing Bella Donna together. Oh, okay, Charlie Manson. Yeah, yeah. That's literally what I thought of too. First thing I thought of. So one of Barbara's friends called her and was like, yeah, Tony's involved with this guy and like he's bringing him down a really bad path and I also think they're together. So Barbara was devastated that her son was gay, which is so fucked up. That's so wild. So fucked up.

That would even be on your... And I know it was like a different time socially and all that stuff, but it was never acceptable. Never acceptable. It's still fucked up. And she was so upset that she decided they needed to leave immediately and move back to New York City. And she wanted to work on curing him of his gayness.

Curing him of his gayness. Like it's a fucking disease. I hate this. It's terrible. Now some people said that this is when Barbara and Tony's relationship really really. started to become incestuous. Oh. So I read this article that while they were crossing the border to get back into the United

States, Tony didn't have the right passport, so they had to spend a night in jail. And she said something to him along the lines of like, oh, good, like you're cuffed up with mummy, like just where you should be. Oh. Which like maybe wouldn't be like super duper creepy if everything else hadn't happened. I was going to say. But still, it's like, it's a weird thing to say. It's definitely a weird thing to say.

like saying mummy when he's like 21. I was going to say he's like 21 and being like huffed up with mummy. Yeah. And he referred to her as mummy for like for Eves. Oh man. Yeah, it's a lot. So Barbara allegedly, and this is really fucked up. So if you, again, I gave you a warning in the beginning.

But here's another one. So give yourself a sec. Barbara allegedly told Brooks that she could cure Tony's gayness again, huge yikes, if she just took him to bed with her. Oh, I don't want to be anywhere near this. It's like. I'm out. That's your son.

That's not going to cure anybody of anything. That's your son. That's only going to make more problems for both of you. Oh, I'm upset. Yeah. So Brooks was horrified and he told the story to his brother-in-law, who then told his wife. And then before you knew it, the story was just being passed around the elite circle. And everybody knew that Barbara had said this.

Oh, my God. I love that this started from her own husband, just like, telling everybody at that point they were having like he was involved in like a crazy affair and he had already been having that affair for a wicked long time and he i think he was so out of it but she would constantly say she was going to kill herself if she left if he left her so i think he was feeling stuck like he didn't want to be responsible for that this is just a very chaotic messy situation exactly so everybody's like talking about this but that was the last thing that barbara confided and brooks as a married couple because he don't say i can't stick around for this and like

you better not do that because that's ridiculously fucked up. I can't. That's, having your, like, the mother or father of your child say something like that to you. Right. I, what do you even do? And just like, come out and say it. I'm nowhere involved in this and I'm like speechless. I'm like, I don't even know what to say. Just to say it, like it's not a big deal. I think this would fix it. If I just slept with our son. Yeah. I think that we made together that I'm the mother of. That will, that will solve all the problems. And I know she was struggling mentally, but I'm just like, how does your brain go there? I know. That's the thing like to keep, it's just like, I know there's mental illness here.

So it's like, obviously we're not thinking logically or like at the realness of this situation. But it's like hearing that is shocking. Jarring. Very shocking. Now, just to be clear, Brooks is not the hero of the story. No. He left Barbara and Tony for a girl named Sylvie Skira, who was actually one of Tony's friends to begin with. they had met in Europe. Sylvie and Brooks had been having an affair for like a long time.

And it was actually Barbara who introduced them to each other. What? Because she thought that Sylvie was Tony's girlfriend. Oh, man. Now Sylvie herself denies that she and Tony were ever together. She was like, I knew that he was gay. He knew he was gay. Our relationship was strictly platonic.

Yeah. But Tony seemed to remember it differently too later. And he had later, like, said that his father stole his girlfriend. Really? Yes. Wow. This is messy as hell. This is the messiest. The messiest. It's like a real example of there always being three sides sides to a story. Yours, mine and the truth. But here we have Sylvie's, Brooks's, Tonys, Barbara's, yours, mine, and the truth. So we've got seven. Yeah, you just keep hearing it. It's like, what? It's like, excuse me. I'm shook. I keep looking at pictures of all these people you keep mentioning. I know, right. I'm like trying to get the feel for it. They're all very beautiful.

They are. I mean, this is very like, this is very old Hollywood looking. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's like the oldest Hollywood looking. Yeah. Now, Brooks and the inner circle were not the only ones to hear about the alleged incestuous relationship between Barbara and Tony. After Brooks left her, Barbara started taking like a creative writing class and she was allegedly writing a novel about a mother and son and their incestuous relationship with each other. Okay. And then Sylvie later alleged that the police found tapes in Barbara's house like cassette tapes where she was like recording like talking. about what she was going to be writing, and she was talking about incestuous things.

No, that's never been confirmed if those cassette tapes actually exist. But Sylvie said that the police gave them to Brooks and said, destroy these because they're going to ruin your family name. Wow. Because remember, this is a huge family name. Like, Leo invented the first sustainable plastic. Of course. So Barbara's an heiress, you know.

And just this, like, focus on incest is like, can we move away from this, please? Right. It's very flowers in the attic. It is. It keeps bringing me there. I keep getting brought there. It's a weird place to go, man. I was excited to get away from it. Yeah. As soon as this episode is over, as interesting as it is, I'm like, okay, we're going to move on to somewhere. That was a place to hang out for a while. I think we're going to move on to somewhere haunted after this for me personally. But we got to finish this. So one of the friends that Barbara made in her creative writing class remembered that at first she thought that she was writing a fiction novel about the, incest because you would think that. Yeah, like flowers in the attic. Correct. But then she went to Barbara and Tony shared apartment one day because Tony just constantly lived with Barbara, like for the

rest of ever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there was pictures that Barbara had taken of Tony and portraits, and they were just like everywhere. And this woman was just like disturbed by the picture. She said that they weren't the kind of pictures a typical mother would take of her son. Okay, because I was going to say, I was like, all right, it's her son. Yeah. She loves her son. Now, there is one picture, and it's not, like, sexually explicit or anything, but it's of Brooks, or excuse me, it's of Tony when he's younger in, like a bathtub. I saw, I just saw that. It's a weird picture. It's not like, there's no, like, like, blatant nudity or anything like that. No. But it is definitely a picture that you'd be like, what? When was that, like, what was the context in which that was taken? And it, it's, like,

posed. Like, it looks posed. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? It looks like a photo shoot. It literally does. Like, it looks like a photo shoot that like a grown person would take now. Of another grown person. For like, you know. A magazine.

Some magazine, you know, like. Like Playboy, to be honest. Yeah. No, well, not even. It's, because it's not. It's like, I feel like it's like suggestive, though. But it's got like a high fashion look to it. It does.

It has like a vogue look to it. Like I could see like, you know, I'm trying to say, I'm so bad at actresses. I'm like, uh, we're. Kara Delavine. Yeah, I could see, or like Jennifer Lawrence. I can see her like in this kind of photo shoot. And I think, I think you're right, actually. I think it's only suggestive knowing what I know now.

Yeah, because I was going to say it doesn't shout like a playboy. Yeah, no, that was the wrong thing to me. It shouts like why, what's happening here. Yeah. Like, that's all. But if you didn't know, you'd be like, oh, like fashion. And it's definitely not a photo I would like display of my child. No.

No, it's just a little bit weird. Yeah. But over the years, a lot of Barbara. and Tony's visitors felt the same as this woman. They were like, yeah, these pictures were weird. Because no matter where they were, because they had various apartments in New York, London, and other parts of Europe,

because Barbara got a monthly allowance from Brooks since he had left. But no matter where they were, there were like huge portraits and photos of Tony all over the apartments that Barbara put up. Yeah. And she was just like constantly talking about Tony all the time. Like she was very, very focused. Yeah.

Which, again, if you're looking at, it from the other side. It's like, that's your only child and your husband left you and now you're kind of both clinging on to each other. Yeah, you can definitely look at it both ways. A few sides here. Yeah, but the portraits were often described as creepy. Yeah. Now, one of Barbara's own friends, Alan Harrington, said that she called him on the phone to tell him that she had slept with Tony to cure him of being gay. Who? Another man who made friends with Barbara on a cruise said she also told him the same. thing and said she was quote very honest about it she said she had done it to break him of his

homosexual tendencies she talked about it as though it were a therapeutic act i'm horrified yeah especially like for all of this like a dude on a cruise you meet like what telling him about this like whoa and then there were people that was like yeah like she just and again these are all like alleged accounts but there are people that were like yeah she just like said it at dinner one night which makes you think like there's something so wrong here that she's that she doesn't think it's wrong something that would horrify people right because that's the thing it's like normally like you I would think when this happens people I mean people try to hide this one it happens I would think you would feel shame and also it's it's like there's so many layers to it because it's like you don't find anything wrong with like trying

to cure someone of homosexuality which I know at the time probably wouldn't shock everybody as much right But then you add that layer of like, it's my son. Yeah. Like you have incest into it. It's like, no, you should feel some shame here. What are you doing just saying this in front of people? Which makes me very much question what state she was in here. That's the thing.

I think she was. Because it just seems. She wasn't in a good state. She was constantly, even after Brooks left, she was like threatening to kill herself. She attempted to multiple times. And then at the same time, I read articles where like we're saying like you would, so she's telling people she's having an insect. to this affair and you're like, wouldn't that shock people? But then it's like she at one point

slit her wrists and showed people and was like, oh, guess what where I was this morning, like at the hospital. So it's like, I don't, I think she was like disassociated somehow. Yeah, there was just like no filter happening. And again, this was so long ago that she's not going to the right people. There wasn't medical attention available to her. Like this wasn't understood. It wasn't understood. Exactly. Yeah. So it's a lot. It's a lot too. Now once Brooks left, Barbara's mental health only declined more and more, and Tony now was the one taking the brunt of it. Because like I said, they would argue over like what restaurants to go to and end in like a physical assault. So like what's not Tony's taking the brunt of it? Barbara was super hard on him,

especially because she was so upset about his sexuality. And eventually Tony began to struggle with his own mental health. Now not to mention, back when we, back when he was with Jake Cooper, he had eaten like an entire thing of Belladonna, which is known to cause hallucinations and ongoing mental problems. I was going to say it because it's not like it just like, it's like, whoop. It doesn't just go away. It's going to run its course for a long time. Yeah, exactly. Like Bella Donna. It doesn't even sound like a real thing. That's wild. Insane. He was prone to serious and like really scary bouts of anger. And obviously, if this alleged insist is happening to him, that's also part of it. For sure. During some of these, and it was always Barbara that was like taking

the brunt of his anger because they were so codependent. It was like, yeah, I was going to, this is just such a really, really toxic relationship. Volatile relationship. Of both sides. Right. But he would threaten Barbara with knives. He would choke her. There were times where people were like, yeah, I literally saw him try to push her into oncoming traffic. My God. And things escalated really, really seriously one night when Barbara was attacked while she was leaving a dinner party that she'd attended in London. Someone came up behind her and tried to grab her, but she was able to make a break for it. Whoever this person was, then grabbed her by the hair and allegedly ripped a clump of hair out. Whoa.

And then threw her down on the ground and then tried to drag her into oncoming traffic. Yes. She was able to get away again, but the man ran into the house and then came back with a knife and started heading her way. Like he ran into the house that she was at a dinner party at. It was her friend's house. This is just some random dude? I don't know.

It was this guy. Obviously, he knows the layout of this house. so he goes and gets a knife and comes back and he's like screaming that any woman who's near her is going to get it. What? If they like intervene. Yeah. So then he starts going Barbara's way.

But just in the nick of time, a couple people who lived in the house that like weren't there at the time intervened. And Barbara's friend Sue came onto the scene and somehow, whoever this was, got scared away, ran back into the house out the back door and into the alleyways and got away. And Barbara said that was Tony. What? That was Tony. That is like Jack the Ripper style. Legit. Like just like coming out of the... The shadows. The shadows. And disappearing into the alleys of London. Like what the fuck?

Right. Right. The whole thing is just bananas. This is like really chaotic. It's truly very chaotic. So Barbara knew it was Tony. And when the police arrived, she was like, that was Tony. And he was arrested for attempted murder. And that was her son. That's her son. Yeah. But that's her son. Yeah. But that's that's not the first time that he even tried to like hurt her. Wow. So he ended up being admitted to a private, a private psych, he ended up being admitted to a private psychiatric hospital called the priory, but he didn't spend a long time there at all because Barbara just wouldn't listen to the psychiatrist's warnings. And she also didn't have the money anymore to keep him like getting the treatment that he needed because Brooks cut her allowance. Oh boy. Which I'm like a grown woman getting an allowance.

It's just like the craziest thing. That's crazy. It seems like almost like an alimony kind of thing. Yeah, probably. But the psychiatrist literally told her that he believed it was Tony's full intention to kill her. Full intention to kill her. And she answered him by saying, quote, he's been murdering me since the day he was born. Whether for him or his father, I don't know.

I'm used to murder. And the psychiatrist is like, it's so sad. It's so sad. The whole entire thing is so sad. Like from every angle, this is really. sad. It is. Thank you for this. The psychiatrist was like, I'm not talking like metaphorically. Like I know like that I know you're going through a lot. I know what you mean. But I'm not being like hyperbolic here. He's going to try to kill you and he's going to kill you if you

if he doesn't get the help he needs. Oh my goodness. And he said to her, I think you're at great risk. And she said back to him, I don't. Because she just didn't believe in her heart that her son could do something to her. I mean, who does? Of course not. You know. Now, a few months later, Tony was out of the hospital and again living with his mother. And again, Barbara couldn't pay to keep up with his visits, so he's only getting worse and worse. And Brooks refused to help at all. He said that his son was just inherently evil. So on the night of November 17, 1972, according to Tony, he took a phone call from a friend. Now, this is where it gets like even weirder.

So in the past couple weeks leading up to that night, Tony's behavior had become more and more erotic. He was doing strange paintings of people with blood pouring out of their sides. He was doing paintings of his mom with snakes wrapped around her neck. Just like clearly in a very disturbed state. Lots of like symbolic images here. Yes, definitely. And just like, it tells you everything you need to know. Like clearly something was going on. Yeah. You know, he had also attacked her again and left her unconscious on the floor. He'd been throwing things around the house. And then finally, he seemed to have been entering a calmer state because it seems like this is how it went like it would be it would blow up and then there would be like cool down periods yeah now so he takes this phone call in november 17th

and he said the phone call was his friend who told him that he'd fallen down an elevator shaft and that it had taken a quote profound effect on him so this is the friend telling tony that tony was the one who fell down the elevator shaft so his friend calls yes and says hello tony you fell down an elevator shaft. Apparently. It had a big effect on you. So I don't know, because it got like super confusing. I don't know if it was the friend who was trying to use a metaphor to tell Tony like, you've fallen down an elevator shaft. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, like metaphorically. Exactly. And he's like, you need more help. Like, let's figure this out. Like, I'm here to help you. That makes more sense. That's how I took it. But I don't know if he meant it that way, if Tony actually had fallen down an elevator shaft or if this conversation even happened at all.

because it might not have even happened. That's true. Right. So either way, Tony said that he invited that friend over for a drink and then his mom came home. Now, Barbara had been at her friend's house earlier that day, Missy Handlin. Missy's son, Mishka, had cooked dinner for them and said the entire time Barbara was just talking about Tony and how much better he was doing and just like all the things that he was up to. And she said, actually, he's going to cook me dinner tonight.

And I think it was one of those things because Missy's son was cooking lunch for them. she was like, Tony's going to cook dinner for me. Like, everything's a-okay. See, my son's just like yours. Me too. Like, he's so amazing. Unfortunately, that is not what happened. When Barbara got home, Tony told her that he was going to be having a friend over.

And Barbara was annoyed allegedly about the time that Tony said the friend was coming because it was earlier than she wanted him to come. So they started fighting. Okay. Now, the fight made its way around the entire apartment. It was getting more and more heated until it just became explosive. Tony later said that at one point, Barbara, sat down in the middle of the fight and wrote something down on a piece of paper.

And her doing that made him so mad that he just struck her and ripped up the piece of paper. And while he was doing that, she ran into the kitchen. Ooh, lots going on here. Not awesome. Now eventually things would end in the kitchen. So Tony chased her into the kitchen and then grabbed a knife, which he then stabbed into Barbara's heart, severing a major artery along the way, killing her. Wow.

He killed Barbara. Which is exactly what the doctor said would happen. Exactly what the doctor said would happen. She was 50 years old and earlier that day she had written a letter to one of her friends saying, Fridays are always suspect, don't you think? Oof. Like what? Also, Brooks later pointed out that the next day when he found out what happened would have been their 30th wedding anniversary.

Holy shit. So later that night, Missy Handlin got a call. Hall saying like, hey, like we heard you were with Barbara today. Like, when did she leave your house? Like, when did this happen? And they're asking her all these questions. And she's like, this time, this time, like, why? And they go, how well did you know the deceased? And that's how she found out that her friend had died. Oh my God. That just gave me chills. Like, can you imagine that's how you find out? You just spent the day with her? She just left your house probably a couple hours ago. How well did you know the deceased?

Is that not crazy? Woof. So it's unclear who contacted the police. There was a housekeeper that like ran out of the house screaming. So it could have been her. Could have been somebody who saw her screaming. But when they got there, I shit you not. I saw this in every single source that I looked up.

Tony was sitting in the bedroom ordering Chinese food. Wow. Just had like total just snap from reality. Total snap. Wow. He had the wearer. withal to confess to the murder and he said to the police quote my mind was slightly wacky and i was very much under my mother's influence i felt she was controlling my mind who this is just like this is all

just such a poisonous family it's like it's just poison everywhere so toxic now it was clear to authorities and doctors that even though tony knew what had happened right then and there he wasn't doing well mentally and over the following days he didn't seem to realize that like what he had done that he didn't know that she was gone because people would come and visit and he would say, how's my mom doing? I don't know if he realized that he actually killed her. Yeah. It seems like it was a total break from reality. Absolutely total break. He also told them that everything started when he was little and fell off a pogo stick, but just left it at that and wouldn't say anything more. That's strange. He was just like speaking like nonsense basically, just saying like little things like that

and then going off into something else. And then there were also times where he said that it was his grandmother's fault and she was the one who stabbed Barbara. But that couldn't be true because this happened in London and his grandmother was in New York. Yeah, that would be hard. It would be very difficult. Yeah. So while waiting for his trial and sentencing, Tony was held at Brixton Prison in the UK. It's like a very high security prison. Like a lot of like newly murderers go there. Now when the case went to trial, John Mortimer, he, what did I say earlier? It took place. John Mortimer took place. Yeah, he took place here. He was the one to represent Tony in court. His goal was to have Tony sent back to America to undergo treatment.

But in the end, Tony was found guilty of manslaughter. And he was sentenced to Broadmoor hospital in the UK instead of jail time. I had a feeling that was coming. Yeah. And he ended up being diagnosed with schizophrenia. Okay. Which is just like. So heartbreaking and so sad.

Oh, this whole thing is like, oh. It really is just tragic. It's just tragic. It's just no way to look at this other than tragic. Well, and you just, there was no way. out of this either. It's like how was this going to? Yeah. Like how is this going to end any other way? Yeah. Just you people needed help from the jump. Yeah. I mean Barbara needed help. Starting with Barbara. Starting with Nini. The Marlboro's mother, you know? It's like there's just there was a long

line of not being like mental illness not being taken care of. Absolutely. And it explodes. It literally exploded. Yeah. But during this time where he was in Bromore Hospital, he had tons of visitors. He would write letters back and forth with like the elite family friends and his grandmother Nini, who he said had done this, which obviously he didn't, I don't even think he knew what he was saying. Yeah. And one of his letters to Nini, he wrote, quote, nevertheless, I feel better now and I even feel a great weight has been removed from my shoulders. An odd thing is, she told me that I would kill her this summer several times. I thought this the most unlikely thing in the world. that the poetic nature with which he describes this so remember he's a writer really unsettling he wanted

to be a poet oh he wanted to be a writer that is some beautiful prose that he just spun about murdering his mother beautiful terrifying pros like wow and then so it's like she said like Fridays are suspect and then an odd thing is she told me that I would kill her this summer several times and then even the thing that she sent to the psychiatrist like they've been murdering me since yeah he's been murdering me since he was born because you wonder if she was just like several times like during some of their spats and stuff, she would be like, you're going to be kill me, you're going to be the death of me. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, well, but I don't think she meant it literally. But maybe she did. She might have because he, I mean, he attempted to kill her

one on like one really big time. And then there were other times he knocked her unconscious. Yeah, I mean, this, that's the thing. You can, this case every time I'm like, well, maybe they meant this. I'm like, but, you know, but maybe they actually meant it. Right. Like literally nothing. No. So like I mentioned in the beginning, Barbara's mother, Nini, had also been through her own struggles with mental health and the loss of her daughter now. But just like any grandmother, just like any grandmother in the world, she had a soft spot when it came to her grandson. She thought he could do no wrong. That's a tough one. She thought that he would do much better in the U.S. under her care.

So she wanted to turn his life around. So she reached out to all of their big money friends, the social elite. There was this man named Hugo Money Coots. He and his family controlled a really exclusive bank, so they had power in the area. I was going to say, I know that name. Yeah. So she was talking to like big money dudes here, people with money that could probably bribe like the hospital to get Tony out. Yeah, don't do anything.

It was a huge campaign just to get Tony out and brought back to the U.S. Ooh. But Brooks insert himself, insert Brooks back into the picture, is what I'm trying to say. He totally disagreed with NeNe. He thought that Tony was exactly where he needed to be. Again, he said Tony was evil and should have been convicted of first-degree murder. Wow. And because he, like, felt so strongly about this and, like, it seems like he had, like, a hatred for Tony.

Yeah. I wonder if some part of him still loved Barbara somehow. Yeah. I mean, I think there's, I think all of the emotions in this whole case are all completely, like, obscured and just, like, we can't, none of them are pure. No. You know what I mean? Like, there's no, you can't just be like, oh, well, he loved her.

It's just like, you're like, I think. I think part of him there was like a weird love. In aioda. You know, like you just have to like weed through the nonsense to find it. Right. But yeah, I think there was like, I mean, and honestly, he wasn't around. Right. So it's not like he really knew this kid as a man.

No, not at all. So it's like he only knows him as a kid. And it's weird that he had that. He surmised that from his childhood when he really wasn't taking care of him as a child. Right. So it's strange. It is really strange. I just wonder where that came from.

But it's weird. weird that he's like Tony so evil and like you know and then even just to say the thing like I found out on what would have been our 30th anniversary yeah when he was remarried and actually had a child yeah so it's like it wouldn't have been your anniversary because your divorce your anniversary left stop when you stop being together like I don't count my anniversaries with my ex-boyfriends nope can't say I do not either like you don't just keep going and be like wow it's been 20 years not together would have been our 20th today if we hadn't broken up if we hadn't broken up 18 years ago wow would have been our 30th if I hadn't abandoned you in my sick child. Exactly. So, but then you look at it at the other way and you're like,

what was he supposed to do? Did he see something in him as a child that was scary? Yeah. Did he look at him as a child and be like, this kid is scary? Maybe. Because I mean, it is his. Yeah, you know, or did, I mean, and also he looked at Barbara and was like, again, maybe he loved her, but he just couldn't handle the volatilness of it all. He wouldn't be able to take care of her or get through it with her. Exactly. Exactly. Like he could, like he should have. But so while everybody was campaigning to get Tony out. Brooks was basically campaigning to keep him in. He was like, no. And he also said that, so at this point, Brooks had another child, a son. And he said that Tony had made and sent his son like weird macab gifts. Oh. And I couldn't find anything to say like what these gifts were. But Tony, like really enjoyed, like making things like crafts and stuff like that while he was at Broadmoor. Yeah. And Brooks said that they were so creepy and weird that he threw them out immediately. Because he was scared they were like messages or something. Yeah, he was just like freaked out by them.

All right, I don't blame him. But at the end of the day, it was not Brooke's decision. And all these big money people are rallying against him. So obviously, I have to imagine there was some kind of bribe involved. Oh, I'm sure. He's in there for like murder. Oh, yeah. Somebody lined somebody's pockets.

Absolutely. I mean, we're talking about Hugo here. Hugo is involved. Hugo is involved. Come on. So Tony was released from Broadmoor in 1980. And his release was contingent on him being put directly under the care of his grandmother, 87-year-old Nini in New York City.

Who thought this was a good idea? This woman is 87 years old, by herself, her health is ailing. She's also in a fucking wheelchair. Yeah. It's like, how is she going to look after him, you know? And immediately she showed that she really couldn't look after him because he, again, he's in London. He has to fly back to New York.

He has to be with someone because it's contingent, his release was contingent upon him being with her. Yeah. But she can't, like, fly back and forth at this point because her health is ailing. So she enlisted one of her friend's daughters who Tony had never even met. So just this random girl. Basically, it was her Nini's friend's daughter. And apparently they just lived close to Broadmoor.

And the daughter was like, yeah, sure. Like, sure. I'll bring him. Sounds convenient, I guess. So it was more a plan of convenience than actual safety. Wow. It's like, what is this girl going to do if he, if something happens? What if he like loses it?

Exactly. So Brooks was pissed and in his opinion this was absolute bullshit and a sign that Tony was not going to be in good hands. And he kept saying he was really worried that Tony was going to kill someone else. So he even tried to have his release reversed, but it didn't work. Oh, man. His attempts were futile. So Brooks. I feel like this isn't going to be like, and then everything worked out.

The end. No, no. This whole entire thing is a dumpster fire. Awesome. Brooks seemed to be the only one who realized how same. Tony actually was in a weird way. Like even though he was so mad at him, he was like he's evil. I think he cared. Well, I think he was like he needs to stay in the hospital. Like he needs to be constantly monitored. That's just like he's sick. He's sick. And you're concerned you need

help. He's concerned about like public safety. Yeah. I mean, I get that. So everyone else at this time was like, no, like he's fine. He was happy at the Broadmoor. He changed after a year there. And, you know, I think it was just like everyone was like, it was Barbara. Like, It's like, as fucked up as she was, nobody deserves to get murdered by their fucking kid. Yeah, and it's like, dude, like, you don't, after a year of being in a hospital after you murdered your own mother. Right. That's not enough time, I feel. It's definitely not enough time.

And it's like, okay, so what happens to the next person that pisses him off? Yeah. Because he was literally just pissed that his friend couldn't come over on time. Exactly. And like, obviously, I don't think that was just it. I was going to say, obviously, there's a lot of history there. There's a lot bubbling under that surface. But then we'll see, was it because of the history?

I mean, yes, it was because of the history. But in that moment, I think it was just that he was fucking pissed and couldn't get what he wanted. And I think he just needs help. He was diagnosed as a schizophrenic. And he's killed someone now. So I think he just needs help. Correct. So he's got to stay there.

He shut off. So after a few days of living with Nini, Tony had built what some would call like a shrine to his mother. He built her a shrine and he would whisper to himself while holding her ashes. And people, I read in like some sources that he would whisper like satanic things when I was like, I think you're just being like a little. Yeah, that sounds like bullshit. It's like, don't be rude. Yeah, he probably is just whispering. He's probably just, yeah, exactly. Unfortunately. Or things that make sense to him. Right. So Nini was like, well, shit. But, you know, I have to try this because I got him out. So I'm sorry. I just picture this like 87 year old being like, well, shit. No, I know it's true. I think she was just in way over her head. And I think, yeah. I think seeing some of. in a state like that is a lot different than like visiting them when they're in a controlled environment where they're getting the help that they need exactly right calm controlled environment and now you're bringing them out into the chaotic world and this family is just straight up chaotic yeah because remember neme has

her struggles with mental health too oh yeah so it hadn't even been a week since his release when tony and his grandmother got into a heated argument over a simple telephone call oh no he said that his grandma was a mysterious woman and like wouldn't let him call people. But I also was like, he wanted to call someone in England and she wouldn't let him. And also like that shit's expensive. Especially back then. I'm sorry. Long distance calls are expensive. I think that's really all it was. When I was little, it was expensive. When I was little, it was expensive too. We got in trouble for you. Like, you do like fake like prank calls and you'd accidentally call someone in like another country. And you'd be like, well, fuck. And it showed up on the phone bill and they were like, what the hell is this?

Grounded for a week. Yeah. But Tony was absolutely enraged when she told him that he couldn't use the phone. So he threw it at her and he ended up hitting her in the head and she fell over. And then Tony repeated what everybody thought he had been cured of. He immediately grabbed a knife from the kitchen and started stabbing his own grandmother over and over and over again. Oh my God. She was still screaming when the police arrived. And Tony calmly looked at them and said, like, she just won't die. She's just not dying. Oh. By that point, he had stabbed her eight times and broken multiple bones. And when he was asked what happened, Tony said he threw the phone at her.

And then when she fell over, he decided it would have been kinder to kill her than to just leave her hurt on the floor or leave her to go to the hospital and suffer all these broken bones. It'd be better just to kill her in his rationale. No, that doesn't make sense. Nini survived the attack, my dance. What? She was 87?

She was 87 years old. old. And later on, she just said, like, she was like, I thought that I could help him, but I couldn't, unfortunately. That's really sad. The same thing almost happened to me that happened to my daughter, and I didn't realize it. That's really sad. And this is, again, like a trigger warning, because this is just a lot. He later, Tony later admitted to his psychiatrist that he had been hearing voices leading up to this night and that he had also thought about sleeping with his grandmother. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of fucked up shit happening here. lot of fucked up shit. So much fucked up shit. Yes. Oh, this is just like really fucked up. The whole

entire thing is so dark. Yeah, it's like you don't even know how to describe it. It is. It's just dark. It's just dark and it's bleak. Wow. So Tony was obviously again arrested and charged with attempted murder. Now he's in New York at this point. So he ends up getting a life sentence at Rikers Island. Yeah. Which I don't even think I need to explain to you. But if you're not from here, Rikers Island is literally like the most intense jail or excuse me prison in New York. Yeah. Like the worst of the worst go there and it's probably the scariest place in this area. Yeah.

Now, just eight months into his sentence, he requested bail and his request was put on hold while Rikers waited for his records from Broadmoor. So he probably wasn't going to get released on bail, obviously. But on March 20th, 1981, the day that he found out he would have to wait for those records, he walked back to his cell and was later found that very day with a plastic bag wrapped around his head and he was dead. Now, people still question whether or not he killed himself or if he was killed. Oh, yeah.

Nobody knows because the thing that people were pointing out was like he was attached to all this big money. So he was able to do whatever he really wanted in prison because, you know how that goes. like, again, bribes and stuff like that. So he made a lot of enemies along the way. So it's like he could have been killed or he could have just killed himself because he didn't want to be in that environment anymore. Or it's like he killed his own mother and his grandmother.

I don't know if that throws him lower on the hierarchy of prison. Yeah, pro. To be a target, you know, like along with like kids, I think women tend to be, especially like your mother and grandmother. Yeah, especially like that would put you lower on that. Yeah. But I, you could see either way. Yeah. Or honestly, who knows? He was really suffering with like mental illness and schizophrenia. Maybe he didn't mean to do that. Yeah. Maybe he just, you know. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, nobody knows. So still, nobody knows. And I read a book about this. It's called Savage Grace by Natalie Robbins and Stephen M. L. Aronson, who was connected to Barbara at the time, like ran in the same circle as her. So there's all, the way the book is written is really cool. It's all these interviews with people who.

who were involved in the circle. And, like, Sylvie's in there. There's statements from Brooks in there. Oh, that's cool. There's statements from NeNe in there. Oh, wow. There's transcripts of psychiatrist notes. Oh, wow.

Like, of interviews with Tony. Oh, that's interesting. It's a really good read. It's a really highly criticized book, I think, because it's just a, it's intense, you know? Yeah. And some people debate that the incest thing didn't happen. So it's just a hot topic. Yeah.

And then they eventually made a movie saving. I was just looking at that. Again is very highly criticized. Julianne Moore stars in it. Yeah. And what's his name? The other guy? Ah, la la la la la la la. Why can't I remember his name? I am DB. He's, I love him as an actor and I can't think of his name right now. I'm going to look it up for some weird reason. So we're just going to like vamp it up until we figure it up. So Julianne Moore plays Barbara Baceland. And then the son is played by that actor that I like. I'm looking for. He's got red hair. Oh, just popped in my head and then went away. Eddie Redmayne. Yep. Yep,

there it is. And then we have Stephen Dillane and Reed. There's a lot of good people in here. There you go. But Julian Moore and Eddie Redmayne are like the main characters. Yeah, the main characters. It's Barbara and Anthony. But again, it was like really highly criticized. Really? It's so funny because I don't think I've ever heard of it. I've actually never heard of it either. And those are like two big stars. I think it also was like not rated. because I mean, it deals with a lot of stuff. I want to watch it, but I'm also, like, very scared to watch it. Do you know when it came out? 2007. 2007, okay. Yeah, because he looked really young.

Yeah. It's just, I don't know if I want to watch it because, you know, flowers in the attic was a lot to watch in and of itself. So, like, this might be even more to watch. Yeah. I mean, just, like, looking at the screenshots of it. And I'm like, I don't know. I just watched, like, a little bit of the trailer while I was saying that.

And I was like, I think I'm going to sit this one out, especially after, like, boring myself into this. I was like, I think I'm good. Yeah, I don't really need to gross myself in that story anymore. I think I'm going to move on to something haunted. And I love Julianne more. I do too. She's a great actress. Yeah, she is great. Yeah. So guys, that is the story of Barbara Baceland. Wow. And didn't know that that was the road. We would be trekking down. Yeah, I think we did take the road less traveled, to be honest with you. The road you should never travel, I feel. Don't travel that road. Wow. So thank you for that. Yeah, your face throughout this whole thing.

People are always like, I want that to be like a visual thing. Sometimes like you don't. I feel like at that, this probably would have been a funny one. This would have been a funny one because I think my face was just like... You just kept being like twisted in horror the entire time. Your eyebrows were furrowed. Your eyes were widened and you like kept like crouching into yourself. I kept like curling into my own body.

I'm like, uh, it's a lot. But you know, highly requested. Wow. Thanks guys. I did it for the for the weirdos. I did it for the weirdos. And with that being said, let's talk about some weirdos. Let's do that.

Hey, Holly McNulty. Holly McNulty, your last name is the last name of the detective in the wire who I loved. McNulty, yeah. Would you look at that? We then have Jessica Norell. Jessica Norell. I think you are swell. I think you're swell as well.

Then we have Katie McClelland. Katie McClelland. You have a great last name. I think it's cool. I don't have anything that rhymes with it, though, but I appreciate it. I appreciate you. Yeah, I like it a lot, though. Then we have Raymond Farmer. Raymond Farmer. You are like a suit of armor. You make me feel protected and I love you for it. Wow, that was like really good. Then next up is Melissa Meany, who I bet is not a Meanie. No way. You're a nicey. A nicey. Thank you, Melissa.

Thank you. Then we have Audrey Perdell. Audrey Prudell. I feel like is like Perdel. It feels like like a prominent last name. It does. It feels like it would be like a Sephora. Like it feels like it would be like a really like nice makeup place or just like maybe i think you're thinking of that because like the prudential center prudel prudence yeah maybe i don't know i don't know thank you either way then we have samantha flaglet or flaget sorry i'm the worst you you you did it and i appreciate that about you you you probably bake really well i feel i don't know sometimes you say that to like people and i think it's funny and i think it's right i think it is i like this last name we have susan clever Sheyer.

Oh, Clevenshire. It's probably Clevenshire, but I like Shire. Either way, that's an awesome last name. I like you both ways. You're awesome for donating. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Then we have Madison Dillinger. Madison Dillinger. You know you have a good last name. You know you do. You know you belong here. You know it. And I appreciate it. And then we do have one, two, three, four, three.

I'm going to name three Patreon Hall of Fame people. Oh, are you ready for the Hall of Fame? Alissa Vafiatis. Alyssa Vafiatis, you are an MVP. MVP. Most valuable Patreon. Oh, love it. One of the most.

All of you are so valuable. Of course. Then we have Melissa Elio. Melissa Elio, you are an MVP as well. Thank you so much. And last, but certainly never the least, we have Caitlin Danzinger. Caitlin Danzinger, you are the third VIP of the day. And I appreciate you guys.

you belong in the Hall of Fame, we're going to scream your name. Ah! Well, thank you guys so much for listening, and we hope you keep listening. And we hope you... Keep it weird. But it's whether you do any of the things involved in this episode, because, like, just don't do that. Literally don't do even one of these things. None.

None. Except maybe pose for, like, Harper's Bazaar and Vogue. That'd be cool. Don't even do... Just don't do any of it. Oh, yeah. Blanket statement, nothing. Not to.

Not to do. Thank you.