Morbid - Vampire Talk with Doug Jones

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

Weirdos! Are you ready to talk about Vampires? Today we are joined by the ICONIC actor Doug Jones, the nicest monster in Hollywood! He has played everyone from Billy Butcherson in the Hocus Pocus films, the Fawn & the Pale Man in Pan’s Labyrinth, to the Amphibian Man in the Academy Award winning film The Shape of Water, as well as the titular role in David Lee Fisher’s Nosferatu: A Symphony of Horror available NOW on AppleTV, Amazon Prime, and other purchasing platforms! We ask him about his experience playing the hilarious Baron Afanas on What We Do in the Shadows which entered its final season on October 21st on FX! Ash tops off the episode telling us about a vampire legend from Poland. It has goat throwing! It has pacts with the devil! It has supernatural halitosis! It is the vampire story that keeps giving, hopefully, with the aid of our friend Dougie, will come to a theater near you at some point in the future!Looking for the Full story of Cuntius?? Visit https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/An_Antidote_Against_Atheism/Book_III/Chapter_IX Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I am Ash. And I am Alina. And this, this right here, is morbid. Sorry that this part two is not like right after the part one. Usually we try to do that. It's just been like a crazy week, but it's always a crazy week up in these parts. It truly is, but also, this is like also my fault because I just got way more invested in this case than I had originally planned. And I didn't want to give, I know you guys like, which I love you for it, you're always like, don't apologize for more getting more.

And trust me, I'm. I appreciate that and I love that so much. She needs to hear that. I need to hear that. But because I've been giving you a lot of multi-parters, I was like, you know what? I want to wrap this up and two also because he's real gross. So I just wanted to like, I was like, okay, on to the next. I want to do a spooky lighthouse series.

Ooh, I love that. I feel like we haven't done one in a while and people really dug that. Should we do one next week after my episode? Yes. Cool. Okay, cool. That's what we're doing. We were going to do something completely different.

And then in that moment, I was like, wait a second. I kind of want spooky. Because you guys have also been sending us some. Like our mailbox is full of them and I'm very excited to dig into those. So that would be fun to do, I think. Cool. But it's funny because I hit record like early because I was like, you know what? We got to like get this on air.

I know because we were just having like a very in-depth, like very deep conversation. Yeah, like so deep. I think it's because there's been so much like negativity in the world lately. Yeah. I'm sure everybody feels this way. it makes you think about like, shit life. And just like how you've approached negativity in your life and like social media can be like so fucking damaging and toxic. And it can be so great.

That's the worst part. That's the thing. There's a, it's a very double-edged sword. And we were just talking about it because when you, you know, when you become a parent or when you're taking care of any little being and they become involved with like friends and other families and such, all of a sudden you're now seeing that you're. your kids are getting exposed to other belief systems. Yeah. And that's something you don't really, I think you don't, at least me, I didn't think about it too much in depth until they became that age where they were starting to be like,

hang out with other families and like, you know, kids talk and what they believe and what, and you want to make sure your kid is like open minded. Of course. And not shutting other people's belief systems down. And so we were just talking about it how important it is and that like it would be so nice if everybody would just let people care about what they care about, if it's like a harmless thing, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not religious. Right. I don't believe in a lot of things. Yeah. And I teach my kids to be very open-minded and believe what they want, what speaks to them.

Right. And also telling them, you know, like, the important stuff, like, you never discriminate against someone for how they look, how they talk, how they dress. where they come from, what they're wearing, like nothing. We include everybody. But it's like, I feel like it got really deep when we started looking back because I was like, you know what? I just feel like I've been in a vibe lately, like in the last year or so especially, where I just have finally seen how negativity begets negativity.

And it never really made sense to me before. I was always like, okay, like woohoo. That doesn't know. It's almost like the secret. it. It's almost, like I would say, like, I'm, I'm, I don't know about that, but like, I, so I'm not going to, like, shit on it or say it works. It's funny that you and I, I feel like we, like, believe in a lot of the same things, but I feel like in this discussion, I'm realizing that we also have completely differing beliefs, too. It's true. We do. But also, it works. Look at how well we get along. And we're like we consider each other's sisters. Like we are related. And it's like we can sit here and just like chat about it. Yeah. And be like,

well, here's what I think. And you say, well, here's what I think. And we're like, huh. And I never feel like judged by you for believing what I believe. Exactly. I hope vice versa. No, never. And it just kind of makes you think. And I think I was looking back and I was like, wow, like, negative, being a like negative, angry person. and like coming back at people and like just being angry in general, like when people try to like wind you up and stuff. Because it like when we first started this podcast, it was hard when people, you know, because you're no matter what. Like note to creators.

That just comes with the territory. There are just angry people in the world. That's just their job. Trolls are going to troll for as we saw back in the Osithe witch trials that trolls existed even back then. Exactly. It's always been around before social media. media, it's just more prevalent now.

It'll be around Fab. But it's like if you're a creator and you're getting trolled and it's bothering you, like I'm sorry and that sucks because everybody's been through it. But my one piece of advice is like I was just because I was just thinking about it when we got in this conversation was like, if you just let people be angry and just let them do their thing, they got to get something out that they want to get out. Maybe it makes them feel better. Probably doesn't because like I said, being a negative toxic person,

only really brings toxicity into your life. And I was thinking about how like even like in high school and shit when I was angry and like pissing and moaning at people and like coming back at people and like, you know, like just being a shitty person. It's like because you're angry because people you feel are being shitty to you. And it's like, you look back and you're like, what was like, I got nothing. Yeah. I got nothing out of it except being angry.

And then when you just start being like, fuck it. Just let people be who they are like whatever. Mm-hmm. You go over there. it really does like totally, I'm like the happiest I've ever been by not engaging in any kind of negativity. I just am like, I'm going to lift up people I love and who I respect. Yeah. And I, that's been the most fun thing that we've been able to do since like the, since the podcast has become more visible.

Absolutely. It's been really fun to lift other creators up that we can. And like people have been so sweet and kind and it like really shows how it just like positivity brings positivity. Definitely does. It just feels good. I think one of my biggest philosophies in life, two of my biggest philosophies, and honestly always really have been live and let live. Yeah. Like I'm living. I'm going to you live. Yeah. I don't really care. Like if, you know, like you know what I mean? If I don't like you, I don't like you. I'm not just, but I'm going to let you be. I just won't engage. Yeah. Because I just don't need toxic stuff in my life. But it's just been like a very nice experience to like grow as a human being.

It is. And I think. I think you're able to feel it. I think you're right. I do think, I mean, I'm still, like, definitely very young, but I do think the closer to 30 you get, the more okay you get, like, with yourself and the more you realize that like, and I think that's a big part of like live and let live is being content with yourself. Yeah. And I feel like that's, that's at least been my experience. It might not be that way for everybody. I don't want to like generalize to everybody. But I feel like I hit 30 and it just started on that path at least, which is wild to think about like my entire 20s. I, like, didn't like me.

Yeah. And it's like, but then I hit 30 and I was like, okay, I'm cool with me. But it's really like mid-30s that I'm like, oh, I am vibing. Because now you're just like in it. Like maybe like when you first turned 30, you were starting to really accept yourself. It takes a long time. And then I also think, especially in more recent years, you've just let yourself be yourself. Yes. Unapologetically. It's true. And it's a great thing. I hope everybody gets to experience it. Because I do definitely feel like for me, like I can be myself around the people that I love. But I do find myself. kind of like like putting the pot or putting the lid on the pot a little bit around other people. Yeah. And I felt that way too. I would I went through a long period of time doing that. Yeah. I'm telling you when you get to the point where it's just like, look. Yeah. You're happier. And I don't I love that we're like having this philosophical discussion for seven minutes. But you know what? We haven't done this in a while. Yeah. So I just wanted to we were having like a very nice conversation. We were. And we didn't want to, which is just funny. We were like, I don't

want to keep this from everybody. Yeah. Everybody should be involved in this fun conversation that we're having that's very deep and meaningful. We were like, what do you guys feel good? So, you know what? If you're feeling like you're in a toxic place and you're engaging in a lot of toxicity, disengage. I'm telling you. Meredith marks it and disengage. I know it feels like that sounds like very trite to say that like, just disengage and you'll feel better. It's true. I'm telling you, man, like it feels good. I feel good just like lifting people I love up and leaving the rest to the wayside. It's like I've been saying it a lot lately and this, I'm actually glad this came up because I don't think I gave credit to the person where I got this from. I don't receive that from Elise. Is it Elise Myers? Yes, on TikTok. On TikTok. Another person who you're like, see, you got it.

They do it right. Yeah. Like she's just doing it right. And she has new merch coming out that says I don't receive that and I'm probably going to buy like all of them. 100%. Because watching that video, I'm going to share it. video later today. I don't receive that. I don't receive that. It will change your whole ass mindset. It will. Just don't receive it. Like I and honestly there's been like things that happened this week that I literally should have just been like, I don't receive that. Yeah. Or there's things that it did happen to me like recently that I was like, no, I don't receive that. And it's, and it really just like you get better people around you. I feel like it's just like all angry people want is for you to engage with them and validate their anger. So don't do it. Let's just finish this off of the good.

home. Doesn't that mean like the light in me recognizes the light in you? Or is that namaste? That's namaste as well. Yeah. Namaste. Fuck yeah. So anyways. Now we're going to get our little discussion about like, you know, I hope everybody's doing well. And you know what? I feel great and I hope you feel great. I know that that actually made me feel very like. Yeah. And I hope honestly, I hope we get to have these like cool discussions with you guys like more. Like in like hopefully we can do like a live show at some point just like sit and chat yeah about like just talk just be like you guys feel negatively let's chat about it what do you feel we're just going to become like you're like grues but it's really it feels good so we just wanted to tell you that because it was a fun

conversation we were having and kids are wild kids are wild it's a real experience just my my whole philosophy with it is just I'm going to tell them people can believe whatever they want to believe and so can you Yeah. And that's just be kind to each other. It's all that matters. It really is. Because I'm hoping to save them from that little like string of time where you're just like a negative motherfucker by just like constantly telling them that like, yeah, I know you're going to be. It feels like it's a natural progression that you just turn into a negative motherfucker for a little while. I mean, hormones might not be on your side with that one. But I just want to be like, I'm telling you.

But maybe they'll come to you after their little outbursts and stuff and be like, sorry you were right. And I'll be like, yes, I am. Yeah. I love those words. But here we go. We just talked about that for like 10 minutes. Hope you guys felt good about it. Here we are. I'll put a little marker on the show notes so that people can skip it.

But if they feel like it, because we get you. We get it. Yeah. If you want to listen, you can. We're going to live and we're going to let you live. And if part of your living is that you don't want to hear us talk about our living, then you know what? Fast forward to about, I would say, like, 1140. Yeah, there you go.

I'll put it in the show notes. Namaste to you. Namaste. I recognize your light. So here we. are part two of this horrific case. We are talking about Matthew Hoffman, the leaf killer. Yes. It's gnarly. Luckily, we have a truly brave survivor in all of this in Sarah Maynard. So that's a light in the end of the tunnel, but it gets a little bleak. So we're going to get into it.

So back to November 11th, where we left off in part one, after Valerie Hathorn had called 911 to report that after several wellness checks, no one had heard from her friend Tina Herman, Tina's friend Stephanie Sprang, and Tina's children, Sarah and Cody Maynard. And they had broken in to find a bloodbath, but no bodies in Tina's home. Police had finally come to the scene at this point.

So Sergeant Tom Durbin and Sergeant Al Dexter were the first ones on scene, and they were astounded, and a little confused by the massive American. of blood in this home. Yeah. Because at this point, remember from part one when I began the story, Hoffman had moved Sarah and the bodies into Stephanie's Jeep after the murders. Mm-hmm. Yep. After he had left her on that kitchen floor forever with a blindfold on, gagged, bound. She has no idea what's happening. She's hearing crazy noises in the bathroom. And what was happening was he was dismembering her family members. This poor girl. Yeah. He had then disposed of the bodies and

also moved Sarah into his Yaris, his Toyota Yaris, back to his home. So then he had driven the Jeep back to Tina Herman's home after buying like big blue heavy duty tarps and garbage bags at Walmart. And he tried to get gas and he had gotten gas, but he had tried to bring it back to burn the place down so he could get rid of all the evidence. But he had been having trouble with Tina's pickup truck and he had abandoned it in a parking lot halfway through the whole process. So he had left the Jeep, the tarp, and the bags in Tina's garage. And he had gone home to take a nap. And it's so crazy to me that during one of the wellness checks, that pickup truck was just parked out there and he was inside doing all of this. And they had no idea. No idea. They just thought it was normal because it was her pickup

truck. Of course. So now the sergeant saw all the blood in Stephanie's Jeep, but the Jeep is parked in the driveway and again, no bodies. So they're seeing all this blood, tissue, horrific stuff going, and not a body to be found. Right, which is like, what the fuck? How many people were in here? So the sergeants called Detective David Light and Detective Roger Brown. They came on scene and they also found Greg Borders, who was Tina's boyfriend at the time. But apparently, according to Greg, they had actually agreed to separate already. But they were living together until Tina found somewhere to move out. Okay. So like a strange partner.

Exactly. So he said he was like, of course it was weird living together after we had broken up. Yeah. Of course we got into some arguments. He was like nothing was ever violent or physical or over the top. Just we were not super psyched to having to be in the same house for too long after breaking up. It's just awkward. Of course it is.

I can't imagine. So Tina's boyfriend, Greg, showed our ex-boyfriend at this point, showed up as this was happening. And he came because he had been working the evening of the murders and then he had stayed with a friend the night before and he had been golfing the whole day. So he had only just shown up to this house. And they, he showed up because a family member called him and was like, um, there's a massive police presence at your house and like police tape and shit. And he was like, what? Imagine getting that call. So he ran home. So they immediately check him. They're like, where were you? He told them what's your whole story that the day before when the murders had

occurred that he wrote, well, what they didn't know was murders at the time, but they assumed. somebody was probably in grave danger here. But he had told them, you know, I left the house at 4 a.m., went to work. I stayed with a friend last night. We went golfing all day. That's my entire timeline. He also must have been freaking terrified. Because he's like, oh shit.

They were breaking up. Like they were pretty much broken up at this point. So of course he's like, they're going to look at me right away. Of course. And he's like, who the fuck came into my house while I was gone? Like what happened here? So they checked him physically for any defensive injuries immediately, noted there was absolutely nothing, not a scratch on him. Good. And then he immediately told them,

you have my full permission to search this house. Great. So they were like, okay. Podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. People don't always realize that physical symptoms like headaches, teeth grinding, and even digestive issues can be indicators of stress. And let's not forget about doom scrolling, sleeping too little, sleeping too much, under eating and overeating. I'm guilty of probably like all of those things. And yeah, it's definitely stress. There are so many different things in life that are stressful. Planning a wedding is at the top of the list. Work is on pretty high on the list too. Bills, all of the above. Stress shows up in all kinds of ways. And in a world that's telling you to do more, sleep less and grind all the time, here's your reminder to take care of

yourself, do less and maybe try some therapy. I absolutely love therapy. I definitely think that everybody should check out therapy because everybody has different things that stress them out. And just talking to somebody that doesn't have a horse in the race makes you feel better. And you know that they're going to give you good advice because you're like, yeah, like, you know, of course you will. BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy.

Give it a try and see if online therapy can help lower your stress. Morbid listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash morbid. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. Now, as this is happening, as this, they're going into the house now, Matthew Hoffman has no idea that the cops have descended upon Tina's home. It's like, did you not think that somebody was going to report one, two, three, four people missing? No, that's the thing.

he thought he was on track here. Yeah, he did not. He thought he had this foolproof plan, and boy, he did not. Of course. So he's now determined to burn this house down to get rid of everything. So after taking a little nap, he secured, I think he tied Sarah up again, made sure that she couldn't go anywhere. And he leaves to go to Tina's truck in that parking lot to go get those gas cans and bring them back to the house. So as he's pulling into the lot, this is after dark sometime after 6 p.m.

A cop stops him. You're shitting me. A cop stopped him as Sarah was tied up in his home and he had just committed three brutal murders and was trying to get gas cans to burn down the home and the evidence. So the cop, who's deputy Aaron Phillips, stops him because that particular parking lot is closed after dark. And he was like, you can't go in there. Ah. So it was very innocuous.

What he was stopping him for? So the cop is like, what are you doing here? Like, what are you trying to pull into that parking lot for? And he says, oh, I'm waiting for my girlfriend, Sarah, to get off work. Stop. Sarah, stop. My girlfriend. So you tell me he didn't intentionally target that house to get Sarah.

Of course he did. Tell me. He also told them he didn't know. So they were like, Sarah, what is your girlfriend's last name? And she said, I don't, he said, I don't know her last name because we just. started dating. What the actual fuck? Yep. And I'm sorry, how old is he? He is 30. And she is 14. 13. Yep. Wow. 13. Oh, my God. Now, Deputy Phillips also reported Tina's truck in that parking lot, like called the deputies and was like, I found her truck, by the way. And that comes in to

help later, like, connect all this. Obviously, in the sense that now they're actually able to process the vehicle. Yeah. But it actually helps catch him later. Like, it actually comes into it. Okay. I mean, that makes sense? It does. It was like such a weird little thing. These guys, a lot of them get, like, we got Ted Bundy, we got Ed Kemper. They get like pulled over as everything's going on and somehow slip through. Creeps me out. So the cop had no idea Sarah Maynard was missing at this point. So he told Hoffman the parking lot was closed and then just sent him on his way. Yeah. I mean, what else was he going to do? So he went back to his home and he moved Sarah now down to his pitch black basement onto a bed made of thousands of leaves.

No. Yeah. She said about this, quote, he would come down there sometimes and just stand there and stare at me. What the fuck? He didn't say a word, just stared. And then he would go back upstairs.

I don't know which was worse, him not saying anything or him saying something. I couldn't figure out what he wanted when he didn't say anything. It was hard to tell what he was thinking that way. Mostly I just laid alone in the dark. And even though there were blankets and stuff that he put there,

it was always so cold. At least it was better than lying on the floor of the bathroom where he first kept me. That was not only cold, it was hard too. Oh. She's 13. To have experienced that and then be able to talk about it. Yeah. Like, wow.

And she really does a lot with it later and we'll get into it. But no, just like speaking of, because now we're hearing more about leaves. Remember, his entire house is covered in leaves. Yeah. From floor to ceiling. leaves on every single wall, every single surface leaves. And I'm assuming he must have had to put that together pretty quickly because his girlfriend didn't say anything about that.

Exactly, because as we're going to find out, that whole strangling incident with her, the domestic violence incident that she didn't end up pressing charges for just because she wanted to get away from him. Of course. That happened 17 days before this. And there was no leaves. And no leaves were mentioned. Okay.

So I assume he, I assume they weren't there because I can't find anything that per saying, yes, we lived in a house full of leaves. And I think she would have brought that up because she was starting to talk about how his behavior was becoming more and more bizarre and affecting her son. And affecting her kid. So I think that would have been a thing. And it kind of makes sense to me that he just snapped after that. And that was that was where this came from. Gathering leaves. But I did read an article. It was on ABC News.

And they talked to Dr. N.G. Barrell, who is the director of New York Center for Neurosyco- neuropsychology and forensic behavioral science. And he said about this whole leave situation, he said, it certainly suggests that he is likely to be mentally ill. Mentally ill as compared to other killers who show up in the news like serial killers or psychopaths. Serial killers from professional point of view, they are not mentally ill.

They have character disturbances, but they know what they're doing is wrong. They take too much pleasure, too much gratification to stop. And then he said it would take talking to him to find out what that means, the whole leaves thing. But he said, Hoffman's delusions are very elaborate delusions related to trees, what trees produce, being in and around trees, and putting people in trees. Okay. I, he knew what he was doing was wrong, in my opinion, for sure. I think so. I think he is on that level with other serial killers where he has character disturbances.

Yeah. And there's some issues going on there. But I don't think it took him out of knowing what he was doing was wrong. Okay. And in fact, he comes right out and says, I knew I did something wrong. Well, there you have. So it's like, I understand why that would be a thing where it's like he does come off as like mentally ill. But I'm not going to sit here and diagnose him. I have no idea what he has or what he doesn't have. Mentally ill and still know right from wrong. Exactly. There's varying degrees of that. So it's like he was never officially diagnosed that I could find. with anything, but who knows. Now, at this point, he had started actually, and trigger warning, he had started sexually assaulting Sarah. Oh, God. Who remember was 13 years old at the time, and he is 30. Yeah. Now, he also at one point handed her a dictionary, told her to look up the word ransom,

and read what it said. Okay. And then he was like, I'll try to let you go before Christmas. What? Yeah. And he had told her, at some point, I'm going to let you escape and then all escape and we'll go our separate ways. Okay. And she was like, yeah, no.

Now, he also continued telling her that someone else was watching her from outside the house. So whenever he left, he was like, don't make a sound because they'll report back to me. Oh, that's so scary. And she believed him, of course. Well, because he proved that one time when she tried to like take a peek, he was like, I told you not to do that. Exactly. And he was like, told you I was going to be watching you. Right.

she's like, okay, like, I know he's a piece of shit, but apparently he's telling me the truth about that. And she's just trying not to get killed here. Yeah. No, special agent Gary Wilgus was the blood spatter specialist that was brought onto the scene at Tina Herman's house. And he had a lot to process. I really recommend you go read that the girl in the leaves book, which again, I'm going to link one more time in this part. The detail that's in that book about this scene and what the different spatters mean and everything is really, really fascinating and very in depth. So I really want you to go there and read it because they compiled a lot of really interesting information about it.

But what I will say is he found bootprints in a lot of the blood and was able to actually cut some of the carpet and vinyl floor in the bathroom that had like a perfect boot print in it. Oh, wow. And they used it as evidence. And I guess it was a distinctive pattern on the bottom of the shoe. And more startling than this, they found a second. set of shoe prints on the floor.

And at first they were like, is this a second killer? Yeah. And it was from an air walk and they were a size about seven and a half. And when they looked in each closet, at first they weren't finding anything to match that. And then they went to Sarah's closet and they found that she only had seven and a half size shoes. Okay. So now they're like, oh shit, she walked through the blood.

Right. Which means she was walking around after this happened. So somebody has her, they could assume. Exactly. And what they said in the report was due to the impressions being in the oil-like substance, it was believed that the wearer of the shoes was upright and walking through the crime scene, stepped in the oil, and then walked onto the linoleum floor. And these prints led to the garage.

And this was a big deal because they were like, oh, shit. Like she's gone. She walked out to the garage. So where the fuck is she now? Right. Now, detectives noted the tarp and garage bags in the garage bags, garbage bags in the garage, and they were in Walmart bags. Okay. So they were like, they were newly purchased.

And immediately they're like, all right, we got to track this purchase. They're like, cool, let's go to every Walmart near here. Because there was also like a ton of cleaning stuff around that was like laying out that was clearly used to try to clean up the crime scene. There was like, you know, bleach and all this other stuff. And there was several, I think there was one. or two things of gloves that were used that he left behind. Okay. So there was a lot of evidence that this person had tried to do something with that crime

scene. So they figured, obviously this guy went out, bought more stuff and came back and used some of it because the garbage bags were also open. Right. So they were like, okay. So we got to figure out where this came from. Now at some point, so they were off to do that. Now at some point, neighbors of Stephanie's boyfriend, Stephanie Sprang, her boyfriend

actually called police and said, we have a tip. And they were like, what? Okay. So they said, her boyfriend, Ron, Metcalf, had actually dug a hole recently in their backyard. Oh, man. So they followed up and Ron was like, yes, I did. But it's because my kid's pet rabbit died. And I buried it in a cardboard box in the backyard. He's like, it's actually very wholesome. Very wholesome and sad. They dug it up. It was a rabbit in a box. But, you know, people, Of course. I mean, yeah, you're digging a hole in your backyard. And then your girlfriend goes missing.

Exactly. You know, you got to check up on it. So they did interview Ron anyways because they had to. And he was very cooperative, according to all accounts. He had an alibi. He said, you know, their relationship was good. It was healthy. He said he had returned home from work that day that they went missing.

And he was actually weirded out immediately that Stephanie wasn't home yet. Because it was about 4 o'clock, I think it was in the afternoon. And he said he knew that. day she was planning to look at an apartment with Tina to help her out. Right. But he said, quote, she was always there to greet her kids when they got off the school bus. And he texted her, what's up? Right.

Because he was confused. And that's when he didn't get the answer. That's when he connected with Valerie. Okay. And they hooked up and were like, I can't get a hold of her either. Right. So actually, Stephanie's son, Michael and her daughter, Trisha, were in a state of panic at this point.

They were a little older. They were never contacted by law enforcement. meant either. Oh, wow. And they were like kind of livid about that. I don't blame them. Obviously, there's like several ways to look at that, that it's like, this is all just starting. But it's like they are like the next of kin, you know what I mean? Like you should contact them and at least tell them that she's missing. She's missing. Right. Yeah. I don't know the ins and outs of that of how it went, but they were like, they found out through like a grapevine a little bit. That's awful. Now, Greg, uh, Greg, the boyfriend or ex-boyfriend at this point of Tina and Larry Maynard, who was Sarah and Cody's father. Okay. We're interviewed by police to determine if they had any involvement, because of course,

we have to rule out the boyfriends, husbands, ex-husbands, ex-boyfriends, you got to go for those first. Now, Larry actually wasn't contacted by any law enforcement either at first, which is weird, just because he's the kid's father. Yeah. Like, I know they're not together, but he was contacted by Greg Borders and only found all this out because of him. Oh, wow. Now, Greg admitted, again, that the relationship had not been great recently, but he had that alibi. And despite Greg being cooperative and giving permission for them to search the home, cops were like really zeroing in on him at first, which I get. It's the most likely scenario when it really look at it generally.

But you're like he did all that and doesn't have a scratch on him. And it's like he really had nothing to do with it. Yeah. And it makes sense, you know, he was living in the house, that relationship thing. But his punch cards were confirmed the day that. he was at work. People at work were like, yep, I worked with him. And they spoke to one of his co-workers at the Target Distribution Center named Patrick Sandy. Patrick was the friend he was with on November 10th and 11th. Oh, okay. He confirmed the entire story Greg had given about staying at his home

and then going golfing the next day. He said the only reason he stayed the night was because we were like really far away from the golf course and it just made sense. Yeah. You know. And he also had like reservations at the course that were confirmed that they both showed up and they made it. So he was like perfect trail. Airtight. Literally airtight. It's nobody's word against anybody. Now the search for the missing three people were was massive.

There was hundreds of people on foot. There were volunteers. There were searchers on ATVs and shit. There was infrared planes and helicopters flying in the air. Wow. There were boats and divers looking in lakes and ponds around the area. was like all hands on deck. Now, police contacted the Walmart located in Mount Vernon on November 13th, and they had a jackpot. They found out that the tarp and garbage bags were bought there.

The receipts showed it was bought after midnight on November 11th, but the person used cash. Damn it. So they went down there, and luckily the security manager, Jared Skulls, gave them the tape from that evening. And so they were trying to compare it. And they found him. Yes. There was. was Matthew Hoffman. They didn't know his name, of course, yet on that tape wearing a camouflage shirt and buying like those items, exactly. And, and also buying a Halloween shirt, by the way. Like, why did you do, do we get an explanation? He mentions why. And it's just very like, when you hear it, you're like, yeah. Okay. That's who you are. Okay. So, and then they saw him in the parking lot. They were able to follow him getting into a silver Toyota Yaris. So they just looked up all owners of

silver Toyota Yaris is in the area. They come up with a picture, a license photo that looks exactly like the guy on tape. He was also wearing the camo shirt in his license photo. Oh, wow. Yeah. And he had renewed his license like very recently. Oh, my goodness. So this was just like kind of like a perfect wave.

It just fell right into place. And I have to say, and I'll say it again later, but the police and detective work on this case was chef's kiss. Chef's kiss. They were on. this shit. Like, and everybody, every, all the victim's families, everybody involved credits them with, like, phenomenal work. Oh, wow. Great. They really, it's one of those cases that you're like, ah, there you are doing your job. Like, I appreciate that. It's nice to see. So they also were

able to connect to this whole, like, you know, the Toyota Yaris, this whole thing with Deputy Phillips's discovery of the truck that night. Okay. The one that stopped him before he was able to enter the parking lot. Oh, I meant to ask. So they must not have ran the plates that night. No. Okay. And that's the thing. So they'd actually run his plates and they'd run his license, but that's the thing. It just came up as Matthew Hoffman. He said, I live at that, the address. He didn't have any record of, like, that they could arrest him. Like, there was no warrants out for him. But they didn't see that the truck was hers. No, they didn't rent. He wasn't in the truck. He was in his car when he got pulled in. Oh, okay. He was about to enter. I'm sorry if that was in

clear. He was about to enter the parking lot to get the gas cans out of the truck. Gotcha. And bring it back to the house. But he wasn't able to get into that truck. That's why they were able to, Deputy Phillips was able to call in the truck and say, oh, look, the truck is there. Okay. So now it's starting to get peace together. Exactly. And that's why when he was like, what are you doing here in this parking lot? He was like, nothing with that truck. Nothing with that truck. That's for sure. And it didn't connect at first until now. Okay. So now they have deputy Phillips who had run his license that night, but nothing was out of the ordinary. Him and his yaris.

Him and his yaris. But they said, so he's now able to say, oh, Matthew Hoffman, who you are trying to compare to this, I pulled over a Matthew Hoffman in a silver yaris. And he was attempting to enter that parking lot where that truck was. Crazy. Oh, and also, he said he was waiting for his girlfriend, Sarah. And, oh, that's the girl that's missing right now. Like, this is all adding up now.

So they also found now they were able to connect back to his record of domestic violence from the strangling of his ex-girlfriend. Oh, yep. Shit is not looking great. So off they went to get a search warrant for Matthew Hoffman's home. Oh, my God. Now, Deputy Phillips said, because, like, obviously you're hearing this and it's like everything is just falling into place. Deputy Phillips said when this all happened, he said, when the detectives got that information about Matthew Hoffman, it was like Ohio State University just scored the winning touchdown.

Guys were yelling and jumping up and down, grabbing gear, just sprinting out the front door. So these guys were like really dedicated. They were like committed to this case. And when they found all this out, they were like, fuck yeah, let's go get him. Let's get Sarah. Let's find these people. Let's fucking go. At this point, they thought they could find everybody because they had no, they knew something bad happened in that house.

And I know for a fact that all of them, most of them were probably sitting here saying, with all this blood, everybody isn't going to be found alive. Of course. But I don't think they knew the extent of what had happened. So now they start watching Matthew Hoffman's house at 49 Columbus Road. They went off to get confirmation that he was still living there because he had also told Deputy Phillips that his mom lived in like Apple Valley where the Hermons lived. So they wanted to make sure he was at this address and they weren't just going to like bang down the door of a random house.

which like thank you police officers for doing that because sometimes that's not always the case. So they were just battering ram down a door. Yeah. So they ended up talking to his ex-girlfriend who had actually been strangled by him 17 days earlier. And she said, yes, he's currently living there at 49 Columbus Road. That poor woman, too, to find out that all this happened. She's probably like, are you? And on, she's probably like, thank God I got out of that house when I did.

Yeah. Like, holy shit. Now, the Mount Vernon Police Department called in their ESU team, which is the emergency service unit. And according to the MVPD website, the ESU team, quote, consists of a group of elite specially trained to police officers that are called out and utilized under specific circumstances. So it's basically like a SWAT team. Sure. And they used it because they were like, this guy's dangerous as fuck. And we don't know what lies in there.

Yeah. And it's like he has obviously caused a great deal of. injuries at that home. Who knows what the hell he has on him. Right. This guy's crazy. Like, people have talked about how he is climbing in trees at this point and like doing all kinds of weird shit. So people are like, I don't know what we're walking into. And they were just hoping to get these people alive. So they didn't want him having even a second of knowing they were coming. So they surrounded the home with that like specialized SWAT team and he used a battering ram and like bashed down the door. I love it. They had a no knock warrant because they were, they just wanted to get in

there and they figured at least Sarah is alive for sure. So they used a flashbang device to enter the home and he had been sleeping on the couch in the living room and just like was shot up by this. Amazing. And it says from the report, and this is directly from the girl on the leaves, which again, I will definitely link in the show notes, said, patrolman, wiser and Detective Feeney encountered a male asleep on the couch in the living room. They began to give him verbal commands to show his hands, and he was not immediately compliant. Oh. So he was being a little bitch.

They went through the home, and they only found the basement after moving a large cabinet that he had shoved in front of the door to hide it. Shut the fuck. He had hid the door to the basement. As if they don't know that this house has a basement anyway.

And like they're not going to search for one. Right. Come on. But that's even scary that he put her down there and then put a cabinet in front of the door so she couldn't even get out, if she even somehow got out of what she was in. I know.

And I wonder if there was another entrance. like a bulkhead or something because some basements don't have bullkeets. I don't think this one had one because it was pitch black down there and there was no windows nothing. Yeah. And they went down there and they found Sarah Maynard lying on a pile of leaves in the middle of a locked room. She must, can you imagine that? I have like, I have like my whole body going warm. In that moment, she must have just been like, thank you, thank you, thank you, getting the fuck out of here. And I'll tell you exactly how she feels about it because when you hear it, you're like, oh my God, you're right. Like, I would have thought that too. So this room was in the basement,

but it was behind another door and also behind a hole cut through a wall. What? It was like a big crawl space. So she had to crawl into the room that she was in? Like that he had to put her in there. And it was pitch black, no windows, no escape route at all. She was in a legit dungeon sitting in a trash bag diaper over her, over her jeans. Oh my gosh. On a bed of leaves tied with yet. yellow rope and duct tape so she couldn't move. She was bound to that. And he had literally cut holes in a trash bag for her legs and put them over her like a makeshift diaper where she had like had to use the bathroom. Because he wouldn't let her use the bathroom. So she just had to sit there in her own situations. Now according to again, that book that I keep talking about, the girl in the

leaves, Detective Droy Glazier was the one to find her. And he said, and he noted in his report that she was bound in several different ways by yellow rope very tightly too there was also duct tape tons of things going on and she said to him quote i heard someone coming into the house and they yelled get down get down then they came downstairs and i kept and and i think they kept saying i think she's here and then a bunch of guys came down and at first i thought they were bad guys oh because he's been saying this whole time somebody's watching the house that's exactly it she was like, oh my God, because she heard, I think she's in here. And she was like, oh, my God, do I yell for them or do I not? And she said, but then I saw the helmets on them and I knew they were saving me.

Oh. But her moment of, are these bad guys? Are these the guys that he's been saying are watching the house that they've come to take me now? Oh, my God. This poor girl, the trauma. It's unreal. So then she's so relieved. And after the detective and another detective, Craig Feeney, were able to untie. We're able to untie. her, which they had to take pictures of her before they could untie her. Oh, my God. Because they needed it for evidence, but like, holy shit, the trauma. Seriously. Like, she's probably just like, get me the fuck out of here.

Right. Now, they noted that she was wearing that white trash bag, of course. She had also been wearing gloves on her hands that he had duct tape to her hands. Do you, was there any explanation? She said she was like somewhat thankful that he had done that because it was so cold in there that she said if she didn't have gloves, she would have been even more cold. But she was like, I truly don't know why I had gloves on my hands, but he ductates them to my hands. Maybe he was thinking like if she scratched him.

Yeah, like fingerprints anywhere. I wondered if that was it. And I wonder if hopefully they didn't even bring that up to her as a possibility because she was 13 and didn't think of that. Right. Because he did sexually assault her. Right. And I wonder if he put those on her so that if he did one kill her or set her free, that she wouldn't have been able to fight and get DNA under her fingernails. that could later be traced back to him.

That's what I think it was. Probably. Which is so horrific. Peace is like really great and all. Like, you know, we were talking about it at the top of this episode. But you know, it's even better making it to level 1,000 in Best Feens because that is what true satisfaction feels like. I absolutely love Best Feens. I play Best Feens all the time.

In fact, I was playing it before I came over to Elena's house. And it was just making me really happy. And I was like, oh, now I have to go to work. I got to put these Feens down. I'm going to miss them a little bit. Once you download best fiends, you can play it anywhere, even without an internet connection, which is really great if you're stuck without Wi-Fi. Collect tons of fiends that get powered up as you play through more levels.

Every win brings new challenges, thousands of puzzles to play. There's new in-game events that get added all the time. They're like, especially around holidays and stuff like that, I'm sure there's going to be a cool one for Easter, and I'm pretty excited about it. I am currently on level 1,200, get at me. I've been playing a lot. And with thousands of levels, there's always more to play. So go ahead and let Enough is Never Enough be your mantra. Download Best Feens for free from the app store or Google Play, plus earn even more with $5 worth of in-game rewards when you reach level 5. That's Friends Without

The R, Best Feens. Now, the first thing she said to officers when they freed her was, I have to get to school. Oh my goodness. Because she was like, it's been days. I've missed a lot of school. Oh, she's 13. She's just like, I have to get to school. Yeah. She was like, I just don't know how long I've been down here and I've missed a lot of school. And how long was she down there?

It was a few days. It was like three days. Wow. But time to her had completely. Oh, yeah, she's in a black room. Yeah, she had no idea what it was. And they were like, you know what, it's fine? And they were like, you write you a note.

Yeah, they literally were like, you don't have to go to school right now. Like, it's okay. Like, we'll talk to somebody. Sweetie. But they said she just was so nervous. she clung to them. And they said, quote, after the photographs were taken, the girl asked if the suspect was secured so he couldn't hurt her.

They assured her that he was. Then she said, he cut my finger with a knife, usually had me gagged, and he was going to release me before Christmas. So she was just like, I'll tell you what's going on. Right. Now, they asked her if she knew where Stephanie sprang, her mother, Tina, or her brother Cody was, and she said, I have no idea.

Right, because she's been sending me blindfolded. She didn't see it. So she did tell them that she didn't know Hoffman's name. She didn't even know that his name was Matthew and that he was the only one she had seen since being abducted. And she said he definitely attacked Cody because she was like he attacked both of us. And she said, you know, we saw blood upon entering the house. So she said, but I escaped, but I never saw Cody again. And she's like, I'm just scared he got hurt because I think something bad happened to him.

Now, she explained how she had stayed tied up on his bathroom. bathroom floor for a long time. Then he had put her in a closet for a while. And then he had put her on that bed of leaves in the basement. This poor girl. What she went through in this like short, relatively short period of time is like unthinkable. It must have just felt like 30 years. Oh, unreal. Now, a press conference immediately went out and the sheriff said, quote, we have good news to report today. we have located and rescued Sarah Maynard at approximately 8 a.m. this morning. She was being held against her will and she was in good condition with non-life-threatening injuries. She was taken to the hospital for evaluation.

She has been interviewed somewhat. In the house with her was an individual from Mount Vernon. He is now in the Knox County J. jail currently charged with kidnapping. His name is Matthew J. Hoffman and he is 30 years old. We believe Sarah was under the control of Mr. Hoffman since last Wednesday in one form or another and at one location or another. Now, they processed his home and were able to get the boots, the sneakers that match those footprints in the blood. They also found the camo shirt from the Walmart CCTV footage, as well as the blackjack used to bludgeon Tina Herman and the

knife used for all the attacks. Wow. Most disturbingly, and something I didn't know about until I researched this case further, was that they also found a cannon camera that had photos of Sarah on it. He had taken photos of her while she was in his... I had never heard that before either. I didn't know that. And he'd taken these photos of her like sitting on the bed of leaves and she's just like looking at the camera. It's a terrifying photo. The fact that this dude pretended that he just went in there to rob the home and didn't target this girl is unreal to me. You don't just suddenly turn into a pedophile and you don't just suddenly decide to abduct bind with ropes and duct tape and sexually assault a child while taking

photos of the entire out of deal. That's not just like something you fall into while you go to steal shit out of a house. No. That's not how that happened. This was his aim all along and he wanted to have her in his house under his control and he just didn't expect Stephanie to be there. I think that's exactly what happened. He didn't expect another adult to walk in and fuck up the process.

He was sure he could get one adult and Cody in my opinion. But Stephanie was the one that threw the wrench into all of it. She is a lot of the reason that he got caught, to be honest. Like, Stephanie really is that reason. Because this was, her walking in was why he got so careless. And otherwise, he may have been able to kill Tina and Cody and then burn that house down and take Sarah and no one would have been able to track him. Right. So it was really just her sacrifice and her being a good friend and coming to the aid of Tina.

Right. And Tina for fighting back for her kids. It's like these women like are the reason he got caught. Absolutely. They really are. And they were still actively searching for Tina, Stephanie and Cody using all the previously detailed methods, the infrared helicopters, the divers, all the different volunteers. And now, now that they found Sarah, hundreds of new volunteers showed up as well to search the woods and the surrounding areas on foot. Neighbors came forward saying places he would often walk and troll around, because.

because those were going to be new areas of interest now, but nothing was found. Now, the amount of blood in the home was concerning and not making it look like it was going to be a happy ending. But at this time, Hoffman was completely uncooperative, wasn't telling them anything. It was Sarah who was actually saying she was worried that he had hurt the rest of her family. He would not say a word. Right. He wouldn't say if they were alive, dead, anything. Because he's the fucking worst.

He truly is. Now neighbors told stories to police and to reporters at this point. Now they're coming out with all the like, he was a weirdo and like, here you go. Donna Davis, who we spoke about in part one, she was the like right next door neighbor. She said again how she thought he was completely normal for a long time. And then he just suddenly turned and became really weird and aggressive and moody. And she talked about the squirrels and how he liked to feed them and he was nice to them. And then all of a sudden he turned and started eating them and killing them.

And by the way, we now know that squirrels don't usually get rabies. We got a lot of messages about that. I had no idea, to be quite honest. I didn't either. I was like, I didn't either. That was just wilderness time with ash. Yeah, it was just a very like innocuous comment. It was.

But now, you know what? The more you know. Apparently not because we know now. Also, I've gotten a few messages of people telling me that it's not that uncommon to eat squirrels. Yeah, and I had no idea about that either. So, yeah. Thanks for Lends O. TY.

You want to eat a squirrel? I guess you can. I don't, but you can. And apparently they don't carry rabies a lot. Okay. Now, she talked that was, what did we call it? Like outdoor tips? That was like wilderness tips with Ash.

Yeah, and Elena that time. Yeah, and I was like, yeah. Totally. But they also talked about that tree obsession he had, and they said that a night or two, or excuse me, Donna Davis said that a night or two before, she had actually seen him like kind of hanging around his fire pit in his backyard in the middle of the night. Oh. And she did.

She said he's weird. He does shit like that. Right. So it didn't seem offbeat to me. They must have been looking out their windows at him all the time. I would constantly be like, what is he doing? Oh, I don't even have weird neighbors and I'm always poking my head out of the one to see what's up. Neighborhood watch for sure.

Hell yeah. Now later it was discovered that what he was doing when she saw him doing this was burning evidence and clothing from the crime scene. He admitted that later. He was like, oh, yeah, I was sitting out there for hours burning clothes and shoes. She also said, quote, I feel so bad that I was right there and didn't hear anything. That basement where Sarah was, it's so dark and dirty that Hoffman's girlfriend wouldn't even let the dog down there. And the worst thing was, she said, I went outside that week and would shout my daughter's name. And her name was Sarah too.

Oh, my goodness. And she said, I might have given Sarah Maynard false hope every time I used. yelled for my daughter, Sarah Maynard probably thought somebody was coming to save her. Oh. And it's like, oh my God, don't think that. No. Like, that's not your fault. Like, you did not know that.

And did Sarah say that? She heard? I don't think she ever said if she heard or not. But it's like, if she did, it's like that you can't know that. No, of course not. So it's like, I feel so bad when people put that kind of like later guilt on themselves. But we all do it. Yeah, I was just going to say it's human nature.

Of course. You're always like, why didn't I hear this? Why didn't I see something? Why didn't I? You know, we all do it. It's because they planned ahead. Matthew Hoffman unfortunately planned someone ahead. Now, they also found out at this time from someone that Matthew Hoffman worked out every morning

or most mornings at Body Basics Gym in Mount Vernon. Okay. What's weird about that is he would come in at night and work out. Stephanie Sprang would come in after they clothes because she was on the cleaning crew. Dude. Weird little connection, but no. No one could say whether he had actually seen her there or not because the cleaning crew came in after the place closed. Right.

But it could have happened. Maybe. He could have seen her. Yeah. But I don't know. Who knows? But there was also tips from people that they could never verify from what I could see, that people did say that Stephanie might have actually gone to possibly do, because she would like clean houses and stuff. Uh-huh.

She might have actually gone to do a job at Matthew Hoffman's home. Interesting. But somebody said that this actually happened and that she found him creepy and didn't actually want to do it. So she wouldn't take the job. Oh. The tip said she had actually taken Tina with her because she was weirded out by him. And then after the meeting, they both were like, no, you're not doing that job. Yeah.

So again, it wasn't completely able to be verified past this person who did know Stephanie saying that this happened. Yeah. But it's still strange that he may have met or seen both of them at some point. because later he adamantly said he did not target this home and didn't know these people. But I don't believe that. And I think he at least saw them. He saw Sarah. Now, again, he wasn't cooperative yet, but he was still being prodded and poked, which must have been a fun job because they had to get physical evidence from him now.

He had to have his penis swabbed. And I would have shoved that thing so far up there that he would have coughed it out. coughed that motherfucker out. Wouldn't you, wouldn't anybody? Oh, yeah. I would have fucked this guy's whole world up. I would have been like, come on in here, sweetie. I'm going to take care of you.

So I would have done like the rubber glove snap. Let's go. Like, fuck that guy. Yeah. No, he's the worst. Oh, yeah. He assaulted, sexually assaulted a 13 year old. He's a murderous pedophile.

He's the worst. He's the worst. Now, Lieutenant Gary Roller and Detective Sergeant Roger Brown interviewed Hoffman first. He immediately waived his rights to an attorney, but he stayed completely quiet. Yeah, he took that right to remain silent, though. Yeah.

And according to the girl in the leaves, he quote, pantomimed that his heart was broken, but did not say a word. Are you shitting my dick? Exactly. He pantomimed that he had a broken heart. What? Poor thing.

Like, no, sir, you have a broken mind. Yeah. I would have had to call upon deities that I don't even believe exist just to keep myself from hitting that fucker. Honestly. I would have to have to be like someone give me the strength to not hit you. Somebody might have and it might just not be on record. Probably not.

Now, after, like, violence is not the answer, but like you would feel like you would want to at that point. He assaulted a 13-year-old. Exactly. After hours of talking to this guy and getting nothing in return, they brought in special agent Joe Dietz. And he was finally able to get him to at least speak a little. Okay.

Basically, he pulled, Hoffman was pulling the I blacked out card that they always pull. Sure. And he said, I found her in the house and she was tied up. I found her in his house. In my house. In his house. Okay. He came home to his house and found a girl tied up in his basement.

He said, so I took care of her. Yeah. I found her on Thursday and I didn't know how she had gotten there, but she told me I had, quote, done it. I knew I had done something wrong, but I didn't know what it was. I was trying to piece the pieces together. Are you for real right now? Get fucked, Matthew Hoffman. Come on.

Are you kidding me? I just, I blacked out. You are seriously saying to these detectives and special agents, I don't know, I just came into my house and there was this 13-year-old girl tied up and leaves in my basement. And she said I did something. She said I did it, but I don't believe, I don't remember. But I did take care of her. But damned if I didn't take care of her.

gave her some sour ass milk. Like, you're an actual piece of shit. Fuck right off. An actual piece of shit. And then he just shut right back down after that. After that riveting tale of I came into my home and there was a 13-year-old girl tied up in it. I can't. Okay.

And in The Girl in the Leaves, the author talks about a ton of weird tips that came flowing in. And there's a ton of them in there. You got to read it because, like, some of them, you're like, what the fuck. I always hate that. Yeah. And one of them that I found really interesting and had nothing. It did not have anything to do with, like, reality. But it was from a woman in Rhode Island named Cornella,

who saw Matthew Hoffman's photo in the press and said, he has twisty ears and a weird nose. That's probably something that affects his brain. Okay. So she said he should have a specialist look at that and try to get him to talk and then sign that tip with doing all in the name reputation of the Lord Jesus, the Christ. Oh, Cornella out here.

Just giving tips. Yep. I was like twisty ears and a one. He had twisty ears and a weird nose. I'm looking to see if that is fact. I was like, does that indicate that you have a genetic like predisposition to murder? I feel like that doesn't work. He also has pretty regular ears and a pretty regular nose.

Yeah, he pretty much does. Like, I'm not going to sit here and I don't feel one way or the other about them. And it's just like stop doing that. And then of course, there were several psychics who called because psychics love to fuck up active homicide investigations and missing persons investigations. Yeah. So they sent them on several wild goose chases using precious time and resources that they have to follow up on and they get nothing out of it.

Yeah. Because some of them were like, I see them in the woods and they're under red tarps. No, they weren't. No, they weren't. That's frustrating. But cool, you just sent them out in the woods for no fucking reason at all. Right. So there they go.

And they're giving them hope because some of them called. and some of them called and said the three of them are alive and being held captive, which like how you have to be an asshole to do that. Well, and you just can't say definitively also that's evil. Right. You don't know that. Right. Don't tell people that.

You just gave all of these families hope that they are being held somewhere and that they can be found and they weren't. Right. That's fucked. It is. Like, I hate that shit. But well, that's the thing because you just don't know definitively. So why are you speaking on one way or the other? If you're claiming to be a psychic and you're pulling that kind of shit on families of victims, that is evil.

That's fucked and you shouldn't do it. Because if you're calling in a tip to the police, you need to know without a doubt that that tip is like at least good enough to follow up on. Verifiable. Like you need to have your ducks in a row, man. Like don't just call like, oh, that just, that stuff to me can be so crazy. Because the ones that call for like missing children and stuff and will tell these parents that the kids are either dead and they're not or they'll tell them that they're. alive and they're not. It's like, no, don't do that to families. That's fucked. No, it's like, if you have a tip about maybe that guy who dug a hole in his backyard, for sure, let's go check

that out. Yeah, that kind of, it's like, tell real, real, like, tangible tips that they can follow up on. Don't send them on wild goose chases because you looked in your mind's eye and it told you something. Right. Sorry. No. Parts of my day that all start with self-care, because if I'm not doing great, then nothing else in the day that I have to do is going to end up that great. That's why I like to work out in the morning, just kind of have a little me time before the day even starts, and I love to prepare myself a little liquid IV for said workout.

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but it has not always been a seamless process. I definitely think you can tell the difference from like our earlier fun show announcements to the later ones. Yeah, they got a lot better. Ever since we found Canva Pro, we can design anything like a pro even on any device. Canva Pro is a design platform that empowers you to create and share stunning content in just a few clicks. Designing with Canva Pro is amazingly fast and fun. Choose from thousands of templates that are so easy to customize or start from scratch. They have endless premium fonts, photos, videos, and so much more that just adds personality and edge to whatever you're designing.

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and edit them at any time. My favorite Canva Pro feature is the instant animation because I think it's just really cool to like watch your graphic that was once just a photo become animated like it's just fun to watch design like a pro with camva pro right now you can get a free 45 day extended trial when you use our promo code just go to canva dot me slash morbid to get your free 45 day extended trial that's ca nva.m e slash morbid camba dot me slash morbid So they tried driving Hoffman around to the crime scene into various other areas of interest. And they were like, hopefully maybe like he'll just break and like tell us something. Nothing.

He was a stone, like would not say anything. But luckily, after some more pushing, which seemingly was all within legal bounds, I didn't see anything that said that they like, really, like they beat a confession out of him or anything like that. So they would definitely put that in the report. Usually it's like he would claim that or something later. He didn't claim it later. That's true. And it never came out that they did.

And they were, it seemed like they were all on the up and up on all this stuff. So I truly do believe that they were able to get this out of him. Yeah. He did start to open up on his own volition. Hmm. I wonder what made him just be like, you know what? Here you go. Well, here's the thing.

It was, he was starting to crack, I think. Just the pressure was starting to happen. And he opened up not, he wasn't just like sitting in a, interrogation and was like, well, but I'm just going to tell you everything now. Like, that's always a little suspect when that happens. You're like, did you turn off the camera? Well, the other thing is, like, I feel like he probably had something to gain. He did. And he opened up to Agent Deets. And it was actually when Agent Deets brought him to use the restroom. That's the thing. I feel like they always find, like, one person that they connect with for some reason. And he said he was, and the way he did was,

he said, I had a dream last night, and it was a nightmare. And he said, I was at a food processing plant. And I looked into a garbage bag and I saw human remains. And he said, that made it all flood back to him. Yeah. Which is like, sorry, I had a hiccup. I don't know if you guys heard that. But that's like very convenient.

Yeah. That he's like, oh my God. It all came rushing back a nightmare. And now I remember what I did. So at first, he said he would only tell them where the body's were by writing the location down and giving it to his lawyer, then having a legal document drawn up that said that this was his confession, and then he wanted Dietz, only Agent Deetz, to drive him to some location and, quote, I'll pretend to escape and then I want you to shoot and kill me. After I'm

dead, the attorney will reveal the location of the bodies. And did everybody say, no? And Deets was like, you know I can't do that right like I can't agree to drive you out somewhere and kill you release you and then shoot you dead right you know I can't do that right like there's no part of you that believes that I can say yes to that right like that's stupid that's a stupid thing you just asked me that's a dumb plan you put together and he said quote I'm a monster and I can't live with what I've done I just want to die I saw horrible cut up things no you you cut up people you did that right you didn't you didn't just see that and you didn't like willy-nil cut people up. You very methodically did this. You were very aware of what you were doing. So Agent Deetz was like,

yeah, like, you should just confess because like you're losing it. I can see it. And like, this will like absolve you and we'll work through it. And like, let's do this. Well, Hoffman was like, I'm just kidding. I don't remember that at all. I didn't do that. That was a dream. I don't even think, what am I talking about? Nah. Fuck face. And then he was like, but by the way, I might kill myself in prison. just so you know. So they had to put him in like a suicide gown, which that's what they call it. I'm not calling it that. They literally called it a suicide gown, which I'm like, whoa.

But it's so that he has nothing available that he could use to try to harm himself. And he made several appearances in front of like a judge in that gown and everything. Wow. I think it was really his way of just being difficult. Yeah. So they did another formal interview. He shut down again. But apparently he would perk up whenever a woman.

officer entered the room. Gross. Which I was like, wow, you're gross. By this point, the FBI and the Center for Missing and Exploited Children were working on the case just to find these three victims. Yeah. The community really came together for this. They worked alongside investigators tirelessly to find Tina, Stephanie, and Cody. The football teams all wore purple during their like championships to honor them. They were searching nonstop. Like, this community seems like it really was like Like came together. Then suddenly November 17th rolls around. Hoffman said, instead of wanting to be let free and then killed in order to reveal where Tina,

Stephanie and Cody were, he wanted to, he wanted the death penalty to be actually taken off the table for sentencing. So you don't want to die. You can live with what you did. Exactly. Gotcha. Exactly. He tried that avenue of like appealing to people's like empathetic ways.

That didn't work. So he's like, oh, I don't actually want to die. So let's take that off the table. And he said, and then I'll tell you. He probably just thought that he could, like, I don't know, like zigzag out into the wilderness. Oh, he definitely thought something was going to happen. So prosecutor John Thatcher actually met with the family members of Tina, Stephanie, and Cody. And then he explained all of this to them.

He was like, here's what he has told us. He's saying that if we take the death penalty off the table, he will tell us where they are. And he was basically coming to them and saying, what do you guys think? Like, is that okay with you? Which, that's really hard. because if it were me, my initial thing would be kill that bastard who brutally killed my loved one and kidnapped and assaulted a child I love. But luckily, he was able to talk through it with them because he was like, the only way we're going to get the information is to take that off the table. Yeah.

But he was like, I want to come to you guys and I want your opinion. And it's his decision. He can override everybody. Of course. They are not making the, but he was, I think it's cool that he went to them and was like, you guys tell me, your side. Yeah. And maybe I can try to get you over here. And they should have that. And it's nice that they were able to at least voice what they thought. Yeah. I think more family members should have the ability to just at least be like just spoken to about it. Yeah, just vent. Just get what you think.

Even if you're like, no, kill him. Let me kill him. You're at least getting to say it out loud to someone and someone that will listen. But he basically told them, you know, we've been searching. We might not find them. if we don't get it from him. He's the only one who knows where they are. And it's like, so they did all agree in the end. They all said, take it off the table. Okay. Get him to say it.

So now they had an agreement that he had to bring them to the bodies. He had to, or at least, he had to at least tell them where the bodies was. He didn't end up going with them because they didn't want him around. Yeah. So he had to tell them where the bodies were. And he had to plead guilty to first degree murder, kidnapping, abuse of a corpse and sexual assault among other charges. And with that, they would recommend life without the possibility of parole. Good.

Which I think is like a win-win for everybody. For me, I don't know obviously exactly how I would feel if this happened to me, but I think right now thinking about it, I would rather him have to rot in prison. Me too. To be honest, I would be like, yeah, in no parole. Yeah. And this agreement had it so that if he decided to appeal this at any point, the agreement is broken and now death penalty would be on the table.

Great. So it's really a win-win in all senses because if he tries to fuck around and find out, he will fuck around and find out. So it kind of was like, okay, one for everybody. Yeah. Now, it was all agreed to. And he sent them to coccasing Lake Wildlife Area and Fredericktown, Ohio. According to statements and reports, it says, quote, officers had to drive the winding path for approximately one half mile, then walk into the woods a short distance. There they found, quote, a tree with a large opening, approximately 30 to 40 feet up, and they pointed to that.

So this open, it's a huge tree. 30 to 40 feet up in the air, there's a giant opening in the tree. Okay. Like way up there. They looked into the opening with flashlights because there was like a little three, I think it was like three centimeters

at the bottom. There was like a little hole. Okay. So they used flashlights to look in there and they saw bags at the base of the tree. Now a professional tree trimmer was called in and he had to cut a square into the trunk where they were able to pull the bags out.

So he had basically used his tree climbing skills to climb 40 feet up this tree and dump those bags through that giant opening to the bottom of this tree. Wow. They would have never been found. No, of course not. Where would you have found them? Who would think to look inside of a tree? And this fucker put them in a tree. What the fuck is with this thing with the tree?

I can't. I hate this guy. Now, agents on scene said the bags, quote, contained various dismembered body. parts, including the heads of Cody Maynard, Stephanie Sprang, and Tina Herman. There was also the remains of a small dog. There was also bloodstained towels, clothing, a hat, and shoes. Now, the Knox County coroner, Jennifer Ogle, took possession of the bodies for autopsies. She said during a press conference that she was very affected by this case.

And she said, quote, it would be impossible not to be emotional about this. We're all emotional about this. but we approach it in a scientific way, not allowing our emotions to get in front of us. Our entire community has been wounded in this tragedy, and words can't describe the sorrow felt by all. Knox County is one of the warmest, kindest, and most beautiful communities I've ever witnessed. I firmly believe that no one person can ever take that away from us. The story of Sarah Maynard's rescue will forever be remembered as an example of extraordinary detective work and bravery. She also, she was working alongside chief forensic pathologist, see Jeff Lee.

What they said in their reports of the autopsies of Tina Herman, Stephanie Sprang, and Cody Maynard, was about Tina Herman. They said she was, quote, the well-developed adult female body of Tina is disarticulated at the neck across the upper abdomen, bilateral shoulder joints, bilateral hip joints, and bilateral knee joints. there were so that he like he said he couldn't cut through bone so he disarticulated at joints there was a ton of overkill wounds they were to her face head neck both of her lungs were stabbed several times they also noted that the fatal wound to her was actually a 14 inch vertical slash from her chest to her lower abdomen wow he had essentially gutted her after and like that was the fatal wound do you think think that he did remember the two of them from the cleaning job and was like angry for some

reason that I don't know take the job I don't know I honestly don't know he makes no sense yeah you could go back and forth because there who because there's also is the possibility I don't think it is but that it could be a possibility that he just picked a house at random was isolated and had a garage door that didn't work and he wanted to steal but I don't believe that but yeah I think it played into it. I think it made it easier. I think maybe he picked that house. I think what he did, this is just my personal thought and my personal theory about it. I feel like he saw this house. He saw it was isolated. He wanted to rob the house because he was on that like spree of robbing. I think he wanted to rob it. And then I think he was watching it to see how he could get in there.

He saw this family. And then totally switched gears. And he said, I'm going to take her. And I think that's in it. And then I think and awry because he didn't expect a second adult in that house. That's what I think, at least. But who knows? He makes no sense. Only he knows, yeah. His pathology is wild. Yeah.

That's really all you can say to describe it. We've really never covered a case like this. It's a strange case and very, very sad in all aspects. Now, Stephanie Sprang's body showed signs of dismemberment at the joints as well and a ton of post-mortem wounds just like Tina. Both had blunt force trauma to the head as well. Cody's autopsy showed he had seven very deep stab wounds to his torso, two to the chest area, one to the abdomen, and three to his back. He had blunt force trauma to his skull and also a stab wound to his head.

He was also dismembered in a similar way to Tina and Stephanie. All three were killed with stab wounds. None of them died by blunt force trauma. Cody's fatal stab was the one to the back of his head, which you hope was inflicted first. Yeah, that's what I hope that it was over very quickly. Stephanie's father, who was part of the search, he like organized the search. Like he was heavily believing his daughter was alive. Yeah.

Stephanie's father's statement, like, destroyed me. His name is Stephen. And he said, quote, my heart is so heavy. My mind is blank. My trust in everyone is shaken. I know my daughter is at peace. And I'm glad that she doesn't have to see the change in all of us. For him to say, like, I'm glad she doesn't.

have to see that like we're all changed forever by this is like oh that's so sad and Tina Herman's her two brothers were absolutely devastated by the news they lost a sister and also a nephew who they loved very much they were also extremely worried about Sarah having to find this out after the ordeal that she was surviving Greg Border said he was absolutely devastated by the news and his family Greg the ex-boyfriend there said quote Tina was very compassionate and caring she would give you the shirt off her back. Those kids came before everything else. In Hoffman's confession, he said, quote,

I did not want to harm the little girl. And I do not believe she saw anything. At some point in time, I learned her name was Sarah from a baseball card on the fridge because she was a softball player. He also claimed he tried to, he said, I quote, felt that Sarah was still sufficiently subdued

and I drove to McDonald's. I brought back. food removed her bonds and we ate together. I tried to comfort her and told her everything was fine. I tried to comfort her after I slaughtered her entire fucking family. He also, there's several things about this. No, he didn't. Sarah said that didn't happen. No. He did not try to comfort me at any time. And he didn't give me McDonald's. That didn't happen. Right. And then also, he says, I didn't want to hurt the little girl. I didn't hurt the little girl. You did. Then he blatantly acknowledges and says, that he assaulted this little girl,

but he claims it was consensual. He calls her a little girl and then tries to claim it was consensual. What the fuck, dude? Like you're a pedophile. Yeah. Like what the fuck? Let's lock you up and throw away the key.

Called her a little girl, then said, no, that was consensual. Can't be. She was a little girl. You're 30. It's so uncomfortable. It's horrific. Also, she was like, no,

he only gave me sour milk cereal, and that was after I asked for food. and he offered me squirrel. Like, that was it. She said he was an asshole or quiet. He never tried to comfort her. And then he said, quote, I made her a bed out of leaves,

covered it with blankets, and placed her in the bed. She liked that bed. It was extremely comfy. I'm, no, what? He also claimed he let her shower and that he apologized profusely to her. She said none of that happened.

He never let me shower. And he said she, he was like, she was like, he never apologized to me. Did he think that she was just not going to say everything that happened or didn't, happened? He just wanted it on official record to look good. He claimed he made her hamburgers and breakfast. He said he played Wii with her at one point and watched Iron Man with her. He let her read

books. He also claimed he showed her porn and then had sex with her consensually. So obviously, this man is fucked and none of it is true. Oh my God. Like you're 30. She also said none of that happened. Thank God. None of that happened. But she said he did assault her. Yeah. And And he ended it by saying the day the police came, he said, quote, the police came on Sunday morning and I was glad that she was able to leave to be reunited with her family. I would not have hurt her. I could not have hurt her. Reunited with her family.

You killed her family. You brutally murdered her family in her home. Are you kidding me? That's, and this is him claiming, which doesn't even make sense because this confession was made after he led them to the bodies. Right. But he's still trying to claim that he just came home one day and she was just in her house. I can't. Makes no sense.

Oh, and they asked him about that Halloween shirt. Yes, yes. I was just very, I was like, what the fuck is with that Halloween shirt? So they were like, why did you buy a Halloween shirt while buying the tarp and the garbage bags? And he said, quote, because it was only $1. It was right by the only open checkout counter. It was an impulse purchase. No, my dude.

An impulse purchase is like, is. is when you are out at Target and you've bought a million things and you go up to the counter and you're like, oh, look at the Halloween shirt. It's a dollar. I'll get that. Not after you have brutally murdered an entire family and kidnapped a 13-year-old girl. What? No.

Not after you are buying the things to pack up the crime scene and the dismembered bodies of said family. Like, what is your mind? You can't sit here and say that's an impulse. Are you kidding me? What the fuck is wrong with you? I'm like, you were an evil son of a bitch. She is, clearly. So Hoffman couldn't, he couldn't be put in the general population in prison at this point

because there was a high probability he would be dealt accordingly. Yeah, because he sexually assaulted a child. So he had to be put in like his own little thing. And is that? And again, he made the confession. He agreed to the whole plea deal thing. That was a whole thing. So he just went straight to the sentencing phase of the whole thing.

I just feel like you shouldn't get like special. protection because you made the choice to assault a child. It's a very hairy. Of course. Like, I'm not like condoning people, hurting people. But at the same time, but I agree with you that it's like, you made the choice. You go to prison. The end.

And whatever happens. Happens. Happens, my dude. That's not, that's not on me, dog. Sorry that you're not higher up in the hierarchy as a pedophile and a woman murder. That's, like, I don't think he deserves protection. A woman in child murder. Like you're, you are the trifecta of awful.

You're a pedophile. You murdered a child and you killed women. Right. Like, why am I going on my way to protect you? Why do you get a special fucking place in prison? Yeah, no. That actually, I just got like really angry. You're like, I'm real mad.

Like, what? Well, at the sentencing, a lot of the victim impact statements were read and they are all in that book, uh, the girl in the leaves. And I highly suggest you read them all because they will like just tear apart your heart, but they are like so heartfelt. But Tina Herman's mother, Barbara, like, really just like destroyed me. She said to him in court, she said, quote, Matthew Hoffman is not a normal human being. He's ruthless, selfish animal who took the lives of three loving and caring individuals. He murdered them, cut them into pieces, shove them all in garbage bags. And then if that was not enough,

he proceeded to lower them into the hollow of a tree where they would be almost impossible to find. No mother should have to bury her baby girl and grandson at the same time. No. Larry Maynard's mother, Esther, who was Tina's mother-in-law at one point and his Cody and Sarah's grandmother, said this, quote, I cry all the time. How could I not? Sweet Cody and his mom, Tina, were taken from us in the worst possible way. I find myself shaking inside. The only way to describe this pain is to say that it's as if I were shot in the heart by a shotgun. I beg that your days will be long and full of agony.

as you deserve. Good. I was like, yeah. That's exactly what you say. I hope your days are fucking long as hell. And they are filled with agony. And that you don't get to be in a fucking special place in prison. Now, Stephanie's, Stephanie Sprang's daughter, Tricia, said, quote,

the pain I have endured is unbearable. Not only have I lost a mother who I'll never get back, but I feel like I've lost a younger brother in Cody, for whom I've played the second role of mom. So Stephanie and her family were very, very close with these. Like this was an aunt to them, you know, a second mom. Yeah, we all have like extended family members like that, like friends that become family. Now also, Sarah Maynard wrote a letter to Matthew Hoffman and wanted to read it in court to him.

But they didn't want her to do that because they thought it would be too, like, emotional on her. Like she wasn't fully understanding the weight of that. Yeah. So they had her write the letter and then they had someone else read it in court. And she wrote in it, I'm not afraid of you, Matthew Hoffman. good, which I was like, fuck yeah, Sarah. Bad bitch. She called him disgusting. She explained how Stephanie Sprang was a great friend to her mother and someone who took care

of her and Cody whenever her mother needed it, that she loved her. She talked about Tina's caring and selfless method of mothering and how she had everything she ever needed, and even if it meant Tina went without. Cody, she said, was an amazing little brother. He was a left-handed baseball star who would have grown up to fly helicopters for the Coast Guard, which was his dream. She ended it by telling Hoffman that she was happy and that he was not ever going to take that from her.

Good. Which like, fuck yeah, Sarah. Good. Apparently, he pled guilty verbally to each count very loudly and clearly. But then when they read the sexual assault charge, he barely let the word guilty be heard. He said it very lowly. And the judge...

Oh, no, the judge went, what was that? Say it louder. Yeah. And made him say guilty several times as loud as he wanted him. him too to that. Good. Because he was like, you're not going to get out of this by pretending that you didn't sexually assault a child. Also, you're going to sit there and be like, guilty murder, guilty abuse of a corpse, guilty. Because he knows. And then you're going to get to sexual assault. And that's like, I'm glad that like you have a line. Because he knows going into prison.

Yeah. That charge is what's going to get him. Yeah. That he knew that charge was not going to put him. So he was trying to pretend it didn't happen. But it's like, sing it. We want to hear. hear it. I love that judge. Yeah, that judge was like, say it loud. Yeah. Like you're saying the other one so loudly and proudly. Mm-hmm. Guys, did you know that an estimated five billion plastic hand soap and cleaning bottles are thrown away each year? And if that's not bad enough, each bottle can be made of more than 90% water. That's a lose-lose situation for the planet. Stop wasting water and throwing out more plastic and get Blue Land's revolutionary refill cleaning system instead. Blue land's idea is simple and beautiful. Buy the bottle once, refill it forever. No more

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That's 20% off your first order of any bluelandland products at blu land.com slash morbid. Blueland.com slash morbid. Now, he was immediately sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He is now at the Toledo Correctional Institution, and he will not be appealing his sentence because then the death penalty will be on the table.

Good. Now, Sarah Maynard started at a new school. She was a softball player and loved softball, but she said she couldn't do it anymore because it reminded her of Cody, because Cody was a baseball kid. Now, she started volleyball at her new school and she excelled at it. Great. Fell in love with the sport. She has dreams of becoming a pediatrician. Everyone around her said she was doing amazing, and she's like a real hero considering what she went through and how she handled it.

Now, they did create, I guess, Larry Maynard. and a couple of the other family members created the Tina Rose B. Herman and Cody Alexander Maynard Healing Hearts Memorial Fund. On an appearance on the Today Show, Larry said, quote, it was strictly a non-profit organization

developed to help victims of violent crimes such as Sarah. We think it's going to be a real good organization to try and help other families that may possibly go through the same ordeal, Sarah and the rest of our family has gone through. We wanted something good to come out of this tragedy, and it was also a way of remembering Tina and Cody and what good people they were. Cody had told me he wanted to be a Coast Guard helicopter pilot someday.

He wanted to help people and rescue people. I've wondered how many people he could have rescued in the future. Matthew Hoffman put an end to that. It's as if Matthew killed, it's as if Hoffman killed those people who might have been saved by Cody as well. They did a bunch of, you know, events for this foundation. In particular, they did a bunch of hot air balloon festivals for it. and they did candlelight vigils. You can actually still donate through the Fairfield County Foundation website,

and I'll link it in the show notes if you just want to send a donation. Great. Now, a few things that were said about Stephanie Sprang, people said she was always smiling, always having a good time. I never saw her down. She was a character, a real character, full of life and enjoyed living. She was a beautiful person inside and out. It's unreal that somebody could do something like this to her, to a family.

A whole community is hurting and pulling together. About Tina Herman, people said she was a joker and full of life. Tina was courageous. She was an energetic woman whose greatest joy in life was being a mother. She worked at Dairy Queen in Mount Vernon and had the ability to connect with some of the simpler things in life, like blooming sunflowers or her dolphin collection. Of Cody, they said Cody, a gentle child with an enormous heart, was a fifth grader at East Knox School. he enjoyed all sports, but especially baseball.

And at the time, the family of Sarah Maynard, Cody, and Tina Herman had said that in lieu of any flowers or anything to do like that with their passing, they said they wanted donations to be made to any fifth third bank to the Sarah Maynard benefit fund. Oh, great. I looked it up and I was having trouble finding it, but I'll do some more digging and see if I can link it in the notes. Now, unfortunately, I think I said in part one, that there was a little bit of small. stuff with Larry Maynard and the stepmother there.

I'm just going to go over this briefly because I just want to end it on like the bright note of Sarah. But unfortunately in 2013 in May of that year, Larry and Sarah's stepmother, Tracy, were charged with abuse on Sarah. Are you kidding me? According to court records, Sarah told investigators that her father had punched her in the back on May 3rd of that year. And then five days after that, her stepmother had kicked her down a set of stairs.

Oh, my God. The charges were dismissed, but it was only because they agreed to take parenting classes and have psychological assessments and counseling done. She actually went to live with her maternal grandmother, Barbara. Thank you. I'm sorry. After all she went through. Oh, my God. I'm so angry right now.

Somebody kicked a child down the stairs and they were like, you need to take parenting classes. That's. Mm-hmm. You don't need parenting classes. You don't need a fucking class to tell you that you don't kick your kid down the stairs. Or punch her in the back. What? And after all she's gone through.

You don't do that anyways. But like, never mind, this kid has been traumatized to the nth degree. Oh, my God. Yeah, that, like, really, that's why I was like, I'm going to say all the nice things that he said about the victims because they are true. What the fuck? But that's really fucked up. And it's like, you can look it up. There's a ton of articles about it, but...

I hate people. But again, I wanted to turn this back because I don't want Sarah to just be like victimized all the way around here. So in 2019, Sarah was actually part of a panel rounded up by survivor Elizabeth Smart. And it included other survivors of kidnapping, like Gina DeHesuz, Katie Beers, Kara Robinson and Denise Huskins and like more. and it was put together by them to share advice for Jamie Klaus. Oh, wow. Who you covered in an episode. And it was to help her.

They wanted to do this panel so she could see it, see that they have moved forward and that they are all successful women and like strong women. Right. They wanted to share advice to her, how to move forward, how to like live life. Like this, they know only that those, they are the only ones who know what it's like to survive a kidnapping. Like is someone who has survived it. We can't possibly fathom it.

No. And everybody can try to give advice, but they are truly the only ones that can tell her what to do. And it was really amazing and really selfless of all these women because it meant that they were opening up their own wounds to help another person in their, you know, the club that none of them want to be a part of. And that takes a very, very incredibly strong and selfless individual. But Sarah Maynard was part of that whole thing. Wow.

Good for her. Good for you, Sarah. But for all of them. Sheriff David Barber and all the other detectives and special units and the volunteers really made this fucking case. It was one of those cases where you're just happy to see. Everyone came together. That community came together.

The volunteers, I mean, the detectives, the special units, the sheriff, everybody did their fucking job in this and more. Yeah. And like at one of the vigils, I read an article where it said like Sarah saw Sheriff Barber and like ran up to him and like threw her arms around him. So like I think they just felt like really supported by them. Yeah, I was going to say these were the people that like helped her. Yeah.

It's just like that it's really nice to see that like the system worked. Yeah. In this situation, like all of the systems worked. I love that. And it's nice to see. And I just wanted to end it on that because like Sarah's doing her thing. Good. And she that's that's what she is.

And how amazing that after everything. she's been through, she can just do her thing. Yeah. And to like try to help others and like try to, it's just like really, it's something that is really impressive and something I can't imagine. But Matthew Hoffman. Rought. Is looking like shit.

He's, he's living in a fractional facility rot in there and he'll be there until the end of his days. Continue to rot, like the slowest process of a banana rotting. I guess they also took down the tree. which is unfortunate, but they did it because they were worried it would become some kind of like macabre tourist attraction where people were looking in to see where he had dumped the bodies. So he killed a tree too. I was going to say, which really just goes to show you what a piece of shit.

And he also was very adamant during the whole thing. Like, don't hurt the tree. He kept telling them like, you're not going to hurt the tree, are you? Oh, to get the bodies out of it that you put down there? You did this. Yeah, we're going to hurt the tree. We didn't hurt the tree. You did.

You decimated the tree. He did. So it's like it's his fault that that tree got taken down to. So we can count that onto his fucking list of charges of why he's a shitty human. Wow. This case is like I didn't even know all the things that you brought to this. He did everything. He killed a dog.

He killed a child. He sexually assaulted and kidnapped a child. He killed people. He killed a tree. He did everything that you can think of that's shitty. He's done it. He's also an arsonist. Oh, and he's an arson.

I forgot. He's an arsonist and a thief. Yeah. And a burglar. He's everything. Wow. That dude hit everything. Yeah. He's a shitbag. If anybody deserves to be in prison forever with no possibility of parole, he's definitely one of these guys. To rot like a freaking banana. I hope fruit flies just swarm his fucking cell every single day. I hope his toilet smells bad. I hope he gets UTIs all the time. I hope that he has pink eye every single day and every time.

he opens his eyes, the crust just rips apart. I hope, you know, in the Wizard of Oz, when they go into the forest and they try to take the apples and the trees and start throwing the apples out of them, they're like, dick trees. I hope the trees turned against him. I hope there's dick trees all around him. And whenever he goes outside for yard time, they just throw shit at him. I love angrily. I hope the trees are just like fucking with him.

Yeah. Well, that was one of the family members. You can read it in the book. If you read the book, they said like during their impact statement that they didn't want him to have yard time and they said they don't want him to play ball in the yard when Cody can never play ball again. I agree. And I was like, I get that. I 100% get that. So that is the horrifying tale of the leaf killer, Matthew Hoffman. Wow. Great job. But what a harrowing tale. It's a harrowing tale. And just wishing all the best to Sarah. Yeah. Honestly. And not that she needs it because she seems to be

doing great. For real, because she seems like she's killing it. And to Stephanie's family. family, like, you know, into Tina's family. Yeah. And Cody's, like, all the, all the surviving members, I hope that they're doing okay. I know. And I hope that they're just, like, watching Sarah be a badass. Yeah. But.

Oh, man. Yeah. Well, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you. Keep it weird. But not so weird that you do any of this. Bye. No, fuck that guy.

I don't have to tell you not to keep it that weird.