Morbid - Velma Barfield

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

On November 2, 1984, fifty-two-year-old Velma Barfield was executed by lethal injection at North Carolina’s Central Prison, bringing an end to years of legal appeals and emotional debates over the death penalty and how, when, and to whom it gets applied. For six years, Barfield had sat on death row following her conviction for the poisoning murder of her boyfriend Stewart Taylor in 1976; however, during her trial she confessed to killing at least four other people.Velma Barfield’s trial came at a time in the United States when Americans were just beginning to grapple with the concept of a serial killer, and the idea that a woman could commit such heinous acts seemed entirely inconceivable. Although woman had been sentenced to death for murder before in the US, none had confessed to methodically killing multiple people in such a callous way and for such a trivial reason. The debate only became more complicated following her death sentence, an already complicated subject among Americans that became exponentially so in 1984, when Barfield’s case and personal story became a major talking point for politicians running for office around the state.Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for Research!ReferencesAssociated Press. 1984. "Hunt hopes Barfield's death will be deterrent." Asheville Citizen-Times, November 3: 1.—. 1978. "Woman charged in poisoning ." Charlotte Obvserver, March 15: 1.Barfield, Velma. 1985. Woman on Death Row. Nashville, TN: Oliver-Nelson .Bledsoe, Jerry. 1998. Death Sentence: The True Story of Velma Barfield's Life, Crimes, and Punishment. Dutton: Boston, MA.Carroll, Ginny. 1978. "Confessed poisoner awaits death." News and Observer, December 10: 1.Charlotte Observer. 1984. "New Evidence: Velma Barfield's Sickness." Charlotte Observer, October 31: 12.Journal Wire. 1984. "200 gather at funeral of Velma Barfield." Winston-Salem Journal, November 4: 35.Margie Velma Barfield v. James C. Woodward, Secretary of Corrections; Nathan A. Rice,warden; Rufus Edmisten, Attorney General, Appellees. 1984. 748 F.2d 844 (US Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, November 1).Maxwell, Connie. 1984. "State executes Velma Barfield." Chapel Hill Newspaper, November 2: 1.Monk, John, Sue Anne Pressley, and Gary Wright. 1984. "Velma Barfield executed by injection." Charlotte Observer, November 2: 1.Ness and Observer. 1978. "Jailed woman eyed in more deaths." News and Observer, March 15: 1.New York Times. 1984. "Relatives of murder victims urge no clemency for Carolina killer." New York Times, September 20: B15.News and Observer. 1980. "Lawyer says he coached Mrs. Barfield." News and Observer, November 18: 17.Pearsall, Chip. 1978. "Barfield jury calls for death." News and Observer, December 3: 1.Stein, George. 1978. "Arsenic trail: Lumberton asks where it will end." Charlotte News, May 27: 1.The Robesonian. 1969. "Parkton man succumbs to smoke inhalation." The Robesonian, April 22: 1.Tilley, Greta. 1980. "She doesn't want to die." News and Record, September 21: 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. In the morning. In the morning, in the a.m. I feel like it's just become customary at this point to tell you what time it is and what day it is. So it is. Just so you get the feel. Okay, so I should probably know what day it is before I inform you. It's Thursday, right? It is Thursday. It is Thursday, the end of the week, which doesn't mean anything anymore. So all the weeks are the same. But we don't really have a whole lot to chat about beforehand. Mainly, I just want to let you know that you might have seen the title of this. I'm like, wait a second. They did that.

Did they already do that? Why did they do that again? So we're covering today who put Bella in the witch elm. And we did cover this a long time ago. This was our early underwater scuba days. This was also when we were doing actual mini morbids where they were like short. Yeah, this episode was like a half hour. I looked back on, so I've been looking, like I've mentioned in other episodes, I've been looking back on the research and like the

sound quality of the episodes, just to remaster some. And I looked at this one and I was like, there's like four pages of research on this. And I was like, that's not enough. So I just happened to start, I was like, I'm going to start looking into it because I do like this case a lot. And there was new stuff that had come up. And there was all kinds of things that I just hadn't touched upon in the original one. So I was like, you know what? We were still. still getting our research. I can do this better. Hats on. I can do this better. And with the new stuff that has come out, I think it's important to update it. Hell yeah. So instead of just putting a little update, we figured, scrap it, do the episode over again, because I can do it better. Let's do it. Always improving. So without further ado, we're going to talk about who put Bella in the witch elm. To be honest, I only remember like small details from this. You remember a tree. I remember a witch elm. A witch elm. And I I remember little kids finding her, yeah. Well, like teens.

Yeah, teens. So, yeah. So little kids, yeah. Yeah, it sounds like the same thing. So this takes place on April 18, 1943. Four local boys named Robert Hart, Thomas Willits, Bob Farmer, and Fred Payne were poaching rabbits and trying to catch birds in Hagleywood. Alrighty.

And this is located in Worcestershire, England. Worcestershire sauce. Worcestershire sauce. Mustachire. Worcestershire. So this was, this place was part of the Hagley estate belonging to Lord Cobham near Witchbury Hill. Hell yeah.

You know the place, right? I've been there, actually. We're Americans. We don't know anything about this, but I hope I'm saying it all right. I bet you are. When they came across this crazy looking tree, which is referred to as a witch elm. Right. The tree itself is like, we'll post a photo of it because it's definitely like an odd tree.

Or at least odd to me. It's like got a big bulbous bottom to it. And then it's got all these like crazy spikes coming out of it. Because it's cursed. It looks like a witch elm. Like it looks like that's what it would be called. Yeah. Like a witch tree. It's a spooky tree. It's definitely spooky. Now Thomas Willits was 17. Bob Farmer and Robert Hart were 15 and Fred Payne was 14. Yeah. See, 15. 14 equals little kid. Sure, they're teens. Either way. Now, before I get really into this, I just want to mention there are two books on this that I originally did not know about when I first did my research long ago. Elena didn't know about a book? I know, it's insane. And there are two books, they're volume one and two called Who Put Bella and the Witch Elm. The author is Alex Merrill. And actually, it's a father-son team who did these two books. Alex Merrill is his 15-year-old son who helped him write this book and do all the investigation, but he put his name on the book, which I think is so cool. That is cool. That he, like, gave him the proper credit. And they're really cool.

So I recommend you go check it out because they went back. One of the things we'll see with this case is that a lot of the original documents are very difficult to find. Things have been lost. Things were misinterpreted. There's just a lot of shit going on here. The 40s. But they went back and really investigated this. They looked at all the old autopsy reports.

In the book itself, they have the actual text of the autopsy reports and all the inquests, all the reporting, all the investigation. So it's really interesting. And there's a ton of detail that I'm not going to put in here that I think you should check out those books and see. So these kids were actually on their way home when they had passed Hagleywood. And they were, when they saw it, they were like, I bet there's some. stuff because I guess bird poaching is like taking eggs and poaching out of like nests like stealing yeah they there's different like things about what they were actually doing I think they were they were up to no good yeah they were doing something that they that apparently is illegal to do on like you know

private land and stuff they were kidnapping birds they were being teens that's fuked so that when they walked by this they were like oh I bet there's a lot of stuff to do in there so they got to try So one of them, I believe it was Bob Farmer, by all accounts. He saw Blackbird leave this big hole in a tree. Smooky. And he followed because he was like, oh, what's in there? It's got to be a nest in there. So he followed.

And when he looked, he said, you know what? I'm going to look in here, but it's like dark in here. So he said, you guys go look in these other trees that are nearby and see if you see anything. So Robert Hart looked into an old elm tree. And he said immediately he looked into this. big hole in the tree and he said he thought he saw an animal skull, but he couldn't get a good look at it. But he was like, oh, cool, there's an animal skull in there. I want to see it. So he got the other boys to help him and they ended up using a stick to like somehow kind

of like lift it up, like stick it into the eyeball of the skull and then just like lift it up. And this cavity was pretty deep. It was like three feet deep. So after moving it a bit, they could see that this was clearly not an animal skull. This was a human skull. So they were able to tell this one, because you know the look of a human skull, but two, it had a big, it had a clump of human hair on one side of it. Oh my God, that freaks me the fuck out. And it had very human teeth, like a full set of human teeth. Because teeth take a while to go away, to disintegrate, right?

They don't go away. Yeah, right? Never? Yeah, they stay in your head. Huh. Yeah. But it had a full set of two. And you know human teeth.

They're just what they're made of. That's so cool. Yeah. Because like your bones, you know, that would be a long, long, long, long, long, long time for anything to happen to them. Yeah. Fossils, man. Wow. A.M. Ash. So he realized that he had found a full human skull. So they put the skull back into the tree. And then they ran into Wallace goat into town and ran into Donald's pain, who was Fred's older brother. And when they ran into him, they dragged him back into the house. Hagley Wood, and they showed him the tree. This is like some stand-by-me shit. It certainly is. They were like, because they were like, what the, they ran into Ace and his squad. Because one of the issues was they were like, we're not supposed to be in here. Like, and we're doing shit that we're going to get in trouble for. So like, what do we do? We just found something really bad, but like,

do we tell anyone? Like older brother, please help. Exactly. So they brought Donald's back. Donald said he looked into the tree. He saw what they saw. He also saw a green bottle. He saw shoes. And he saw more bones inside the cavity. But again, they were on this land illegally, so they were like, what do we do? So Farmer put the skull back into the tree again, and all of them returned home without mentioning anything to anybody. I would be so scared that I would be like cursed from like picking up the skull. Well, Thomas Willits was on your vibe because it didn't take him long before he felt very guilty about leaving that. Yeah. And he immediately told his parents that night about it. He was like, I need to tell you what I did and what I saw. Because if not, like, who's the

to say that that lady's spirit didn't like intertwine in your fingers and haunt you. It's like you picked it up. Yeah, you got it. Well, you got it. And so his parents were like, okay, Thomas. Thanks for that. Let's bring you. So they brought him to the lie police station where they told Sergeant Charles Lamborn about this entire ordeal. So they made a plan to go the next day to go through it because this was at night and this was late at night. And the police were Like, which is kind of funny that the police are like, yeah, we can't really see in there. Like you don't have a flashlight? We'll just go tomorrow.

Like, what if somebody gets rid of it? Like, what if somebody saw these kids discover this and then goes back and retrieves all that and it's gone. The 40s. But you know what? At least they didn't, I guess. So there's that. So when they did go back, they also had with them Sergeant Richard Scarrett, Constable Jack Pound and Sergeant Jack Wheeler. Lots of Jacks.

So the pathologist that was on scene was Professor James Webster. And he was like apparently very well known in the book that I read. Like there's a whole chapter on him and like his whole life and all his, you know, accolades and all that. He's an impressive character. Get it, Jack. They also had detective superintendent Sydney in inite, I believe. And he was the senior investigating officer that was in charge of the body, the scene, and the investigation. So when Webster retired actually, like just speaking about how amazing he was, the pathologist,

he was described as, quote, the greatest detective of them all. His evidence sent more murders to the scaffold than any other pathologist in Britain. Wow. And they said that he was one of the most brilliant pathologists in Britain. What an honor. So they had like top notch. That's like a pretty big deal just to be like, oh, hey, you were the best detective we ever had. Yeah.

Literally what you've ever had. Britain's pretty big. Yeah. One would say. One would say it's great. It's pretty big. It's great. So police checked the trunk of the tree and they found an almost complete skeleton.

Almost. Not totally. The teeth were definitely still there. They were there. As Ash is really focusing on these teeth. And don't worry, we're going to talk about the teeth because there is like some interesting things with the teeth. I thought so. Yeah.

It's not like very interesting, but it's a unique thing. There was also a shoe in the tree trunk with her. and a gold wedding ring and some fragments of clothing. And according to Professor Webster, he said, quote, it would appear probable that the pair of shoes, because they found another shoe like going with that pair, a little ways away from the tree. Oh, wow.

So he said it would appear probable that the pair of shoes, one recovered from the bowl of the tree and the other at some distance are connected with this body. As we'll see later, well, not as we'll see later, But, like, if you read certain sources, people question that a lot whether these shoes were actually connected to her. Because when we get to it, like, she is, like, pretty old, right? Like, she'd been in the tree a while. Yeah.

No, no. Yeah, I mean, they think so. They're not positive how long. But I feel like it would be weird that, like, one of her shoes was in the tree and then one was far away and, like, stayed far away for a little bit. You know, like, it just seems kind of weird. Yeah, I mean, it could have been that the shoe was in the tree with her and then like an animal moved it far away. And then, you know, things can stay in a wooded area. Something can stay just like chilling for a long time.

Yeah. You know. But I think there's a couple of things that point to it being like a little strange that these are her shoes. The body was then sent for forensic examination by James Webster. And he said that he knew, he knew without a doubt that this was a woman, this female, or this female, this skeleton. He knew that this woman was a female. This was a female skeleton by all accounts. And when he went through, you know, the aging and everything like that and time of death and cause of death, that was when things became a little hairier.

Well, and I would assume like back then, I'm sure that was pretty hard to do. Yeah. And what he said that he was comfortable saying that she had been dead and in that tree somewhere between 18 months and three years. Yeah, so that's like a big stretch. Big stretch, but he was like, I literally can't narrow it down any further than that. Like, that's... I mean, it's a big stretch and it's not. You know what I mean?

Like, for back then, like, that was pretty good. And honestly, they do that today. Right. It's just bones can only tell you so much. Like, they're great for telling you very, you know, minute details and some things that you definitely need to help with that. But, like, when it comes to this kind of thing, it's like... One being outside.

It's really not. and it's like heyday here. No. Yeah, in the elements. And then like the trunk of the tree that she was in, because I'll talk about how small it was and everything, like, it kind of created its own environment in that tree where it's like warm and like it just, I don't know, it just like, would that have speeded it up, decomm? It can definitely hasten the whole, so it really throws things off.

But they, she said, he said that the time of death was in or before October 1941. That's all he could really say. All right. He said that he thought she was probably around 35 years old. They used a ton of different parts of her skeleton to really tell what the age was. They used cranial sutures, teeth, pelvic bones, and others to determine this. And what Dr. Webster said was, quote, you can discard anyone, completely anyone under the age of 25. I am satisfied about that.

This woman, unfortunately, has not undergone the usual routine joining up of her bones, but I am equally certain that the other limit is 40 years of age. Further, I gave as an estimate probably 35 years of age, but I cannot be definite as on the other two points. But my impression is that she is on the 40 side of 35 rather than on the 30 side of 45. So I'm supposed to find the mean of all those numbers. Is that what you're telling me? It's like she's younger than 40.

She's older than 25. I would say she's closer to 40 than she is to 30. Sure. So that 35, I think, is a pretty good, you know, compromise. I love it. I'm here for it. I think he did a good job. Math.

And she had what they described initially as mousy brown colored hair. That's rude. Because there was some. Straight up rude. But at one point in an interview, one of the doctors did say she had the girl had ginger hair. Oh, she's a jinge. She could have been a jinge. And what could have happened was she could have had ginger hair

that kind of faded into brown over decomposition. Like, decomposition can definitely, like, change what hair looks like. Really? Yeah. So they were, they were kind of, you know, going between those two. And I guess sometimes, like, brown hair can look a little more ginger during decomp. So it's like... That's interesting. Yeah. So they were wavering a little bit on that.

And they believed at... first that she was five feet tall and they thought they thought that she might have had one pregnancy and they said they weren't positive of that but he he said he felt comfortable at least like questioning if she had one pregnancy how would you be able to tell just through the bones that like i know you get like hips when you're pregnant yeah well the reason you get hips like after like all of a sudden like i i have definitely seen that in action that all of a sudden i'll put on one of my old pair of pants and And I'm like, oh, okay. Says the girl, that can still fit in her wedding dress.

But or like, or an old dress, though, and you go to pull it over your hips and you're like, those weren't there before. Yeah. The hips aren't just like, you know, love handles or anything. They're literally your pelvic bones have spread open, like to allow that child's room. And you're, you know, they're sitting on your pelvic bone at one point during pregnancy. So it's like it spreads the whole thing wide open. See, I didn't realize that your bones like actually moved when you were pregnant.

Yeah, they definitely. And then there's all. also, I can't remember what the names are, but there's certain tendons that they believed, especially back then, that would like kind of tear off the pelvic bone and it would cause scarring on the bone itself. Yeah. They did mention, though, like there's certain studies that will say, like, you know, things like horseback riding can cause that to happen, though.

Like, there's variants that can make it so, like, it might look like somebody had a child, but they may not have. That's cool. I think that's where he was back. then. He was like, oh, like it kind of looks like she might have, but I don't know. One of the other things that Ash will be excited to hear is that she had very unique teeth. So, and don't worry, we'll get into it. So like we said, the skull had a lot of good evidence attached to it. Teeth, hair. It's good. Like, that's good. Yeah. And she was missing a couple teeth, but they said two of the teeth that were

missing had come out in the tree, or not in the tree, but like, after her death. They could determine that. And one of them was removed through a dental procedure, like maybe a year before her death. Oh, okay. So what he wrote in his report about the skull was the skull was in two parts consisting of the head, which lay exposed on the floor of the tree bowl in the lower jaw, which was in line with the disarticulated vertebrae, the spine, under the overhanging entrance to the hollow bowl. So her mandible was, you know, disarticulated from the rest of her skull. He also said, and this is very interesting, and this is the thing a lot of people are like, ooh. So he said when they got the skull, there was a like big tuft of taffeta fabric that had been

stuffed into her mouse. Yeah. Yeah. So that's telling. So immediately he was like that could be, and he said it was stuffed enough of it and stuffed far enough back that it would have caused suffocation. Oh, jeez. So he said, quote, tightly pressed over the lower jaw in the cavity of the mouth, I found part of the khaki or mustard-colored dress that the deceased was wearing at the time of her death. So far as this thrust over the teeth margin and so firmly adherent to the teeth, was this part of the apparel that I do not consider it likely. I cannot say impossible that this came into the mouth accidentally after death.

It appears much more probable that this has been forced into the mouth prior. to death. And if so, this would have been capable of causing death from asphyxia. Wow. Yeah. That'd be a horrible way to go. Exactly. So he's saying, you know, this doesn't look like it just happened to end up in her mouth after death. Like, it doesn't make sense. And what it's seeming more and more like is that that was shoved into her mouth and then she was stuffed into this tree and just like a lot. Asphyxiated. Yeah. Now, there was a portion of the hyoid bone that they found in the bowl of the tree as well, but Webster said that it looked like the reason it was broken was because animals had probably gotten to it. So he said, because her head had basically,

after she had decomposed and, you know, rotted essentially, her head kind of just tumbled off the rest of her body. And they think that's when it kind of broke. So it doesn't really suggest strangulation. And even we've mentioned in like a recent episode too that doesn't always point to it either way. So after they kept investigating around the area after they had found her in the tree. And they did find the remains of one of her hands, a tibia, and then I believe they found a femur close by. Femers freak me out. But she was missing her right hand. And they never found it.

Interesting. From the measurement of the trunk in which the body had been discovered, he said there was really no way that she would be able to be put into this tree after Rigger had set in. Yeah. So he said she had to have been warm. It had to have been before Rigger or very much after Rigger had already broken. Right. And he said this to him said that she was killed very close to the tree or died in the tree.

Because either she was brought there and this person had her, Like either she was brought there very quickly and this person had a method to bring her there very quickly, like a car. Yeah. Or she was killed right outside of the tree or in the tree by stuffing that thing in her mouth. That's like very scary. Because I guess the opening was only 24 inches by 12 inches. And then it was when I looked up what 24 inches by 12 inches really looks like. I'm so bad at like.

It's like a hamster cage. What? Yeah. So it's really not that like a big hamster cage. That's nuts. I'm like really, I'm glad you said that because I'm so bad at estimating. I am too. So I was like, I got to look up exactly.

So visually what this looks like. It's very small. And she had been put in their feet first. So it's, yeah. And so he said one thing too, a lot of people knew about these woods, Hagley Woods, and this, you know, these kind of trees in particular. So he said he felt like the person was local. Because they knew this was an area that maybe she wouldn't be found for a while in.

And in Who Put Bella in the Witchel, Volume 1, they suggest that maybe this was a secondary dump site, and she was moved after DeComp had set in. And this could be true, but it's like, so there's parts of it that seem like it could be true that this could be a secondary dump site. But then parts of the notes of the investigators mentioned that some of the roots of the tree inside had like continued to grow and had like intertwined with. some of her decomposed clothing. Right. So she was there decomposing for a while. Right. So it's like, you know.

And like, I don't, how many people are going to move a body like while it's decomposing? You literally just took the words out of my mouth. Oh, wow. My next thing when I was thinking about it was like, if she's fully decomposing, that's not easy to handle. No. It's not easy to handle. And it's like, of course people are gross and terrible and have done worse things.

But it's like, stuffing her in a tree. while she's decomposing. I know murder is not logical, but I can't imagine a lot of people wanting to handle a completely putrifying corpse, you know, too far into putrefaction. And then it's also going to be difficult because if she's decomposing and you're shoving her into that tiny hole, bits and pieces of her are going to be embedded into that opening. Yeah. And they didn't see that. Right. You know, so it just doesn't, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. No. Some more findings around the site was a pelvic bone, a right femur, and a right fibula. So they were scattered in an area.

But all in all, the bones were not all discovered. She was missing it for you. Again, records are really weird from back then, and it's also kind of confusing to understand if she's decomposing in this trunk for however long she was. It's weird that no one passing through this wood would have smelled her decomposing. I was going to ask that. Or seen a massive amount of insect activity swarming on this tree. Right. And this was a place people would walk through or be at least around the perimeter of.

And the smell definitely would have permeated to outside people walking around the woods. And the records also say that she was just bones and hair. So her flesh was totally gone. And the only thing I could think was that this woman was murdered, allowed to decompose for a significant amount of time wherever she was, or in a place that was rife with insects and high temps and things that accelerate decomp. And then her skeleton was placed in the tree. Yeah. But that, then you think about the, right? It's like, so it's, that's the only thing I can think of. Her, the roots of the tree were intertwined with her clothing. I think, yeah, I think she was in there

from the, from the get. Yeah, it's just a strange. None of it really adds up. So let's talk about, her teeth because I have told you that she had a unique dental pattern. Show me your teeth. So in the maxilla, which is the top jaw, the left lateral incisor and the second right molar were missing. But like I said, Dr. Webster said in his records that they were there when she died and must have just fallen out or been like bumped out or something. They were never found.

So there is some speculation that they either. fell out in transport or that the murderer stole them because one, something, there could have been like dental work done in them, which would have identified her, or there could have been maybe valuable material, like a gold filling or something like that, that he stole from them. They were all in, her teeth were in pretty good condition. There was a couple, like one or two that had signs of like a cavity, you know. The euse. Yeah. But what wasn't taken into a.

count and a lot of the records, which is strange to a lot of people, especially in the two books, I was reading, they are questioning it, like, hard, was that her two central incisors, so her two front teeth, they were, they're very prominent, they are described, very big, and they're rude again. And they're very crooked. Okay. And when I say crooked, I mean one is almost entirely over the other. Okay. It is projected outwards, and it's like fully over.

over the other one. Oh. So it would be something that people would notice about her. Yeah. This isn't one of those like, look, my tooth is crooked and you're like, no, no, it's not. Like it really was. When I say it really was, like when you look at the skull, we'll post a picture of the skull, it's almost entirely overlapping the other tooth and it's projected out. So it would have been something that you would have noticed the second she started talking. It's a distinguishing factor. Yeah, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's just something like you would have been like, oh, like she has that. Right. And if they were to say that in their records and really make a point of like this very unique thing about her two front teeth, people who knew her would definitely remember that about her. Yeah.

They'd be like, oh, that's unique to her. That's like so and so. But they didn't really make a huge thing about that. They more concentrated on the fact that in her lower jaw, a couple of her lower teeth were like slightly overlapping each other, but not even really noticeably. I don't know why they focused on that part, but not the big part. Yeah. And I don't know if it doesn't make any sense to me. And it doesn't make sense to anybody really when you look back on it because you're like,

you really should focus. In fact, they posted photos of the teeth in like newspapers and such and like in news reports. Yeah. To try to get people to be like, this is what the teeth look like. Do they like, do you know somebody whose teeth looks like this? Right. At one point, they only posted the mandible. Huh.

And it's like, that's not. And maybe they did it because one of her teeth had been removed in a dental procedure down there. So maybe they were trying to point that out. Find the dentist that did it. The central incisors in the top jar are the thing that I would have focused on. Weird. But I wasn't working the case. So what were you doing?

Things fall by the wayside when I'm not working in 1940s case. I know that you were alive back then. I was. Why didn't you just pop on over? I guess I was busy. I don't really know. Well, what they did with the teeth was. was they started a nationwide search of all dental practices.

And they were like, they put out an inquest. They wrote all the stuff about the teeth. And they were like, tell us if you've seen anything like this. Because they said that one of those, that tooth had been removed probably like a year before her death. It was pretty close to when she had died. So that should have been a procedure done that would be still on record. Right, right. And no trace.

No trace of any of these kind of procedures. nothing. What if she took her own tooth out, like a badass? Maybe she did. I don't know. There was no evidence to say, I don't know if we have any dentists listening. Maybe you can tell by like bone or anything, like if somebody had like dramatically ripped their tooth out, like not done it in a proper way. Right. But I'm not very sure. But again, they didn't mention those central incisors in the original dental inquest, which is a very strange thing to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. In terms of the clothing that she was wearing, she was found, the clothing that was found was in pieces, essentially, like it was all very decomposed.

But they found pieces of a corset. Mustard or khaki-colored skirt, which is what they used to suffocate her, like a piece of it. There was a slip, which they said was either peach or maybe like, I think they said like a fawn colored, but they couldn't tell because of how decomposed it was. Yeah. And a navy blue, what they described as cheap type of knickers. That's nice of them. They're pretty rude in these lines.

Yeah, for real. Like, they're just doing her dirty. But I think it's just like of the time. Yeah. And there was also a wool cardigan that matched the skirt. It had like, like, tacky. Sounds like a really cute outfit. It was like a, when they look at, a bunch of people have done like mockups of this outfit, like a drawing of it.

Was it cute? And it looked like a cute 40s outfit. Yeah. It really did. But they also said that when it comes to like her status in life, because people were like, all right, what are we talking about here? Is this somebody in high society? Is this somebody who has, you know, live their life, you know, in the streets? Is this somebody in between?

Like, we got to try to narrow this down because we got to try to find her. Basically what they said in their investigation was she doesn't seem like she'd be like crazy high class. She's not like a crazy rich elite person money-wise, but like she's also not like, you know, catching a ride on like a caboose somewhere. You know what I mean? Like she's somewhere in between. She's like middle class probably. And what they said was she is moreover a type of person who may have been rather neglectful

as to her appearance and habits. And they said this carious tooth, so the one with the cavity that was like kind of rotten, which she had caused her considerably. pain and must have given her a nasty taste in her mouth. Oh. So it's like, okay, so she had a tooth rotting. Yeah. But maybe she was scared of the dentist.

Yeah. I mean, obviously, if they're saying she was in pain, like, but again, you could take phobias. Yeah. Maybe you're just scared of the dentist. Or maybe she was in the middle class somewhere, somewhere floating around the middle, but still couldn't afford the dentist. You know, like maybe it was just, I don't know.

It's hard to, it's hard to discern that kind of stuff. Yeah, you can't say she's neglectful because she's got one. crappy tooth. Come on. She's got one crappy tooth. She's like, come on. Fuck off. Come on.

Don't judge her by her one shitty tooth. We've all had a shitty tooth once or twice. You ever had a shitty tooth before? I have a couple of shitty teeth. That's why I'm using bite aligners. Why is that so funny? Sponsor us. So going back to the shoes, because the shoes were a big, at first they were like,

this is a big find. It's going to help us narrow shit down. But a lot of weird stuff came from the shoes. So Dr. John Lund was another doctor who was given the clothing to examine. And Detective Inspector Tom Williams was the guy who was specifically given the charge of the shoes to go investigate this. There are photos of the shoes in that book that I mentioned, the two books. There's photos of them. You can also look it up online.

The shoes were actually dark blue in color, although they had originally looked black, and they thought that they were black. They were worn out, and they were worn out quite a bit. They were a size five and a half English standard, and she was only believed to be five feet tall, and they actually later found out that she was probably more like four nine, four ten. Yeah. She was very small.

Petit. And this would be considered a very big shoe for someone that size. Okay. So what was weird to them was they said, you know, these were very well worn out, but there was no sign that there was any kind of, thing like padding in the shoe. Like if she wore these shoes, they would be huge on her. Yeah. So they were like, and they were worn out. So she was, whoever wore these, wore them a lot. Right. But there's

nothing that would keep these on her foot. Like these would be a very uncomfortable thing to wear. It's very strange. So according to the volume one book, on May 1st, they were able to identify the make and model of the actual shoe. And they were able to trace it back to the manufacturer. It was Clarence Spray limited was the manufacturer. And their records show that this shoe in particular was, quote, a blue semi-chrome side Gibson shoe with three rows of pin punching on quarter and vamp. It was made on a 97 last with leather through crepe sole and fair stitch four part and crepe heel. I would never know what that is. But if you look at the picture, you're like, yeah, sure. I was like, you are speaking gibberish. There it is. It was made between April and June 19.

That's when it was manufactured. Okay. And they were able to track these shoes to the actual stores in the area that they were sold to. And they were even able to further narrow it down because they were able to see who sold those, that size shoe. Right, right. So C.A. Allen Limited of Bilston Staffordshire, they got six pairs of those shoes. Mezzers Ambrose Wilson Limited of London got 72 pairs. They liked them.

They liked them. and Messrs. Darnel and Son in Shoreditch, London received 54 of those pairs. Also liked them. So not a crazy amount to look for. Like, one of them only got six. You could do that in like a day. Yeah. So they went around and they started talking to these shop owners and they were getting a better understanding of how popular these shoes were. And they found that locally, these shoes were definitely a quick sell. So they were going to sell out pretty quick.

and they likely would have sold out right when they got them. So they were like fashionable shoes? They were just like, they were cute shoes and they were also just like, I think, comfortable. They were fairly priced and they were, you know, you could wear them for a while. I think they were just good shoes, essentially. So the investigators now think that they likely were bought around the date of June 1940. And that's when they were made and sent into stores. But remember, they said there's a good of me.

mountain wear of wear and tear on these shoes. And what they, they estimated about six months of good hardware was on these shoes. So the earliest she was in that tree was June and likely closer to December 1940. And that would put her a little over two years dead before being found in that tree. Okay. Because they were trying to use the shoes and the six months of wear on those shoes and when the shoes would have arrived in the stores to kind of estimate when she would have bought them, the six months of wearing them, and then her ending up dead. But because we're not positive, these are her shoes, it really can, it makes you think a little bit. But again, they weren't proven to not be her shoes either.

It's so weird, like, talking about the shoes because, and, like, talking about her, like, buying them and being alive and, like, putting so much wear into them. And then they were found in a tree. Yeah. Like, there's something so creepy about that. There is. There's a lot of creepiness in that. Yeah.

There definitely is. So now that they have all of this information, and really from, like, Dr. Webster's, like, really comprehensive look and all the inspectors working on this, they really tried to, like, they didn't have a lot to work with. They really didn't. They're giving it their best shot. I feel them trying. I feel them giving it the old college try.

So they cobbled together a description of her, you know, what she was wearing, where they think she was in life, like her shitty tooth. everything. And the Worcestershire Constabulary got together a campaign to spread the word to try to coax out her identity. They were like, someone's got to know who she is. Right. They asked anyone to come forward, any witnesses, anyone who could know her, but no one came. Weird. Not one person. They looked through 3,000 missing persons reports around the country. Nothing. What? Couldn't find anything that went with it. And it was actually a year, it wasn't. It wasn't until a year after her discovery on March 28th, 1944, this is when the who put Bella in the

Witch Elm thing became a thing. So at first they put all this stuff out, they asked for anything, nothing happened. Right. It was just kind of like, what do we do? That's crazy to me. But then a year later, a man named Wilford White saw writing on the wall near his home. Spooky. And it was in chalk. And it was handwritten and it said, Hagley Wood Bella. That's all it said. And another one was written on another wall in Birmingham and it said, who put Bella down the witch elm? Hagleywood. This was Banksy. This was Banksy. A few days later on March 30th, a guy named James W. Rowley saw another one on a wall on Hayden Hill. And it said, who put Lou Beller in the witch elm? What does that mean? I don't know.

So they were all in chalk and they all had the same or similar handwriting and the styles were like weird and similar. So they were able to determine when they looked at the chalk, I guess, later, that it was the same chalk and it was the same handwriting. Weird. And this was put in the paper, because people were like, who the fuck did this? But this caused a bunch of like copycats to pop up. People were doing it everywhere now. But then on August 1944, on a subway wall, same writing, same chalk. It said, Hagleywood Lou Bella, address opposite the Rosencrow, Hasbury. What's that mean? So they were like, what the fuck does that mean?

Well, on August 3rd, two days later, on a fence, like this wooden fence, it's really creepy the picture of it. They found the same writing in chalk, and it said address was opposite Rosencrowne, Hasbury, Hagleywood, Lou Bella. I hate it. So they're like, what the fuck? On the same day, on a wall nearby, they saw the same chalk, same handwriting, Hagleywood Lou Bella was no pross.

and what that is because when I saw it, I was like, what does that mean? That is slang for quote unquote prostitute. That's what I was going to ask. So they were saying she was no sex worker. That's what they were saying. Which to me is interesting because when we get into like theories, I think she might have been a missing sex worker. Oh, you think so?

Yeah. I think that's why she hasn't been identified yet because I think it just. I made it. It was, and I think it seems to fit one. At least that's what I think. Okay. So now remember, this is around the time that a little thing called World War II is happening. Right.

And it ended in 1945. So this is right when everything's going on. So the world, when it ended in 1945 the following year, the world was much more concerned with like dealing with that and like coming back into terms with everything and like welcoming these, you know, getting these soldiers home and like coming back from all of it. this small town murder kind of faded into the background. Which is sad. Yeah, it got thrust back into the shadows, which sucks.

But then in 1984, in a parking garage, somebody wrote, Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm? Spooky. In 1993, that the phrase, who put Bella in the Witch Elm was put on the Witchburg Obelisk in Hadley. And that's the famous big obelisk. It's like the big stone monument. It's the one that you see in this case every time you Google it. It's like that big stone monument that says who put Bella in the Witch Elm. Yeah. That's when that happened in 1993. It gives me like

the chills. Now what's weird, just a quick, like really quick update. November 2020, that, the very famous one on that obelisk was changed. Somebody crossed out who and wrote hers. Hers put Bella in the witchelm? Yes. which nobody can really I guess there is like a graffiti artist called hers but nobody that everybody's like what what that makes sense but then again who that could have been anybody

that could have been anybody right but that's what people are like what yeah it's just a strange and it was in November 2020 so it wasn't how long ago so in 1944 there was a police report and it was a missing person

by the name of Bella Uh-huh. She disappeared three years before 1944. Hello. Which is when... 1941. Yes. She was a sex worker who had...

She had apparently worked on Hagley Road. Nothing was ever really found about this. It's in a police report. They never found her. Her name is Bella. Why would Bella be the name that would suddenly come up? Well, that's the thing. I mean, obviously people...

point to like Bella means beautiful and like beauty and all that. Like maybe that's what people were doing. But like what a weird coincidence and what a name to pick. Yeah, that is that is very strange. You know, like to just throw Bella out there and Lou Bella. Right. Like one a lot of times you like we call unidentified people obviously Jane Doe. Like why wouldn't we just say like who put Jane in the witch elm?

Yeah. It's like very. Yeah. It is telling. To me it seems like especially back then. They weren't looking into sex workers disappearing. No, of course. You know, like we have trouble.

I mean, the Willie Picked an episode will show you anything. We still have issues with that in this world. And it's like back then they definitely weren't looking into it. And it's like that kind of just went by the wayside. So we don't, there's no description of her. There's no, it doesn't seem like she had anybody close to her that they could contact. And like it just kind of went by the wayside. But it's like the timing works out, the location works out, the name works out.

So, I mean, that's a lot of things that fit. into the puzzle. And it's like, was it someone who knew her or someone who's told the story and decided to put that out there? Right, right. Because it's like, it's strange. Because in 1944, it's like, all these who put Bella and the Witch Elms were happening. So it's like, it makes sense if it was reported in 1944. It does. It's just strange. It's weird. There's also a like quick little mention of like, and I didn't find anything else about it, that there was a police report around that time that she was found where like two guards were in Hagueleywood because they were on the Haguewood estate and they were doing like rounds and they came across like a car late at

night coming into the woods which was weird. Yeah. And when they went up and like kind of checked it out. They like knocked on the window and the guy rolled down the window. I think he was an officer of some sort and. Or was he just dressed as well? He wasn't like he was acting a little strange and they said somebody else was in the car and it was like somebody who was huddled up on the seat and not moving oh and then like they assumed she was sleeping so they were like okay and he was they were like you just got to get out of here and he was like okay weird but nothing was ever followed up on that right that's creepy so it's like who was that connected yeah and like huddled up on the sleep like huddled up on the seat sleeping or terrified or dead yeah like because they said i think there was like a

blanket or something around them. That freaks me. Yeah, it's just those kind of things you're like, because we're going to get into a couple of like crazier theories too. And it's like, I think it's something pretty simple. I think it's something, usually it's always the simplest answer. Terrible nonetheless, but like more simple than like witchcraft or anything like that. I think it's like, even like when we did the episode with Paul Holes and Billy Jensen and we were talking about the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders. And Paul brought up how we were like, it was so. weird that they were placed so far, like, from the campsite near the road. And then he was like, well, yeah, like maybe somebody had a getaway car. Yeah. And that the getaway car didn't come.

So they just had to like abandon. Such like, getaway car running late. Very simple answer. Because yeah. Because when we were talking about it, we were like, well, he cleaned up some of the blood and stuffed the sheets down in the sleeping bag. Why would he do that? Right. And I was like, they're just going to find the sheets. Like, you didn't hide them well. And he was like, well, they were probably planning on taking them with them. And I was like, oh my God. I didn't even think of that. That's why you're the detective and I'm not. Exactly.

But yeah, it's like it really is. It's like you have to like program your brain to like to simplify it. Look at it what it is, not try to like totally overanalyze. And it's hard to do. So the human brain I think makes things way more complicated. We do. But we fill in pieces when we don't need to. Yes.

So in 1945, a woman by the name of Margaret Murray, an anthropologist and archaeologist from the University of College, University College London. She actually worked there until she was 72 years old, by the way. That's when she retired. I was like, damn. She was known as like a, she was a well-known archaeologist and anthropologist, but she was also known to be fascinated and very knowledgeable about the history

and anthropology surrounding witchcraft. And this theory became very prevalent, like people know all about this theory. It's known as the witch cult type. hypothesis. And it's bullshit in my pictures. Okay. So it was brought forward, it brought this into a fantastical realm when I think it didn't need to be. Right. Because I think this is just a pretty knurly, cut murder, but like we don't need to bring like magic into it. Of course we do. But do you remember, like I said, that Bella was missing her right hand. Yes. And they did, they were like, what the hell is that? Well, they did end up finding the book.

bones of her right hand, partially buried quite a bit away from the... That's kind of weird. And they thought maybe it would have been buried through the elements or animals. You know, that's very likely. Well, Margaret thought that this was purposeful. This was purposeful. See, there's a ritual in dark magic, apparently, called the Hand of Glory, where bones are scattered to the wind.

So she said that this was likely an occult ritual that was done on Bella, who was a witch. And she said a spell would be done. And then after they would sacrifice her. And when they sacrificed her, her hand would be removed from her arm. And it would be left 13 paces away from her body. There are, of course, sources that say that that hand was buried 13 paces away from the tree. There are other ones that say there's no evidence about that. The detectives on scene like counted the paces.

No, I don't. And that's why, and she also thinks that the choice of tree was very significant because which elms play an important part in black and like the dark arts. And trees also when it comes to like paganism and like, you know, any kind of thing like that, trees do like have connections to like souls and yeah. Binding magic and binding spells and stuff. So she really went with that. There was also there was also apparently Bella Donna. around this area, which is the ancient name for deadly nightshade. And that's a plant that's closely associated with witchcraft.

So she kind of put this all together and was like, this is obviously an occult ritual that happened. Yeah, I don't believe that. I could see. I feel like there is sufficient evidence to consider it at the very least. There was also like, you know, groups and families of travelers in the areas that they wanted to try to blame this on, that either she was one of them, like part of their family, and that something happened and she was murdered and sacrificed, or that she was an outsider and was attacked. But no evidence. This is literally just, there's nothing for that one. But you'll find it in so many places people

just conjecturing about this. Now, the occult theory, like the witchcraft theory, was cranked up a little bit a notch because on February 14th, 1945, on Very nearby Mion Hill, there was a man named Charles Walton, who was 74 years old. I believe he was a farmer. And he was murdered. Oh. And it was a strange murder. So his autopsy showed that he was severely bludgeoned by his own walking stick.

Oh. He had a ton of lacerations on his arms from trying to fight off his attacker. And then his throat was sliced wide open by a sickle blade. What? And it was still in his neck when he was found. They had left the sickle. That is terrifying. And he was discovered skewered to the ground by a pitchfork.

What? Yes. Like an actual pitchfork skewered him into the ground through his chest. Whoa. Yeah. And so, of course, people were like, this is the work of the devil. I mean, this is it. That's warranted.

And it's unsolved. What? So they were assuming that in this area, there was some. shit going down. And since these are too strange, because it's like, yeah, finding someone concealed in the woods is not a, that wouldn't ring any bells of like this much be cult ritual. In a tree is definitely a different feel. Yeah. I feel, you know, and of course it's like calling it the witch elm and stuff. It gives it like a whole other vibe. And it's like, of course it is too strange murders and two strange like scenes. Yeah. That's for sure. Yeah.

So I can give them that. I don't think that Bella was killed by occultists. I just don't. I haven't. I don't know. That's me. And like I say, the people who are blaming, like, the travelers in the area and, like, those families, I think that was just an easy scapegoat to be like, well, they were in the woods sometimes. So I bet they did it.

And we don't know anything about them, so they must be evil. Bears are in the woods, too, sometimes. But I don't think a bear did it. And again, no evidence of this. But then in 1953, something interesting happened. Mm, go deals. A journalist named Wilfred Biford Jones investigated. It went into this.

And he said, in his thing was he definitely didn't believe the travel theory in that the traveler theory was like gaining steam. Oh. And I think so, like, in steam in the sense that no evidence was like. People were like buying into it. That must be it. Right. And so he was.

really trying to dispel this because he was like, I just think. It's dangerous. And he was like, it's dangerous and we're looking at the wrong thing. Right. And he was like, I think he said, he was like, we have to get away from this witchcraft bullshit. And we have to get away from this traveler theory because these aren't what happened. And we're not looking at the real case here.

Because we're all getting, like, mystified by this like crazier thing. Right. So he actually said in an article he published in the paper, I do not accept it about the traveler theory. And he said, every crime is laid at the door of the Romanese. Because he was like, it's true. It's just an easy scape group. It is. So then he wrote this. He published this whole thing. And then he received at the newspaper a letter days after publishing this research and thoughts. And what it said, it was by a woman, it was signed from a woman named Anna. And it said, finish your articles on the witch elm crime by all means. On the witch elm crime by all means.

they are interesting to your readers, but you will never solve the mystery. The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts. The affair is closed and involves no witches, black magic, or moonlight rights. Much as I hate having to use nom de plume, I think you would appreciate it if you knew me. The only clues I can give you are that the person responsible for the crime died insane in 1942, and the victim was Dutch and arrived illegally in England about the case. 1941. I have no wish to recall anymore, Anna. Whoa. So of course, they get this and they're like, okay, so you're telling me that Bella was

Dutch. Yes. You're telling me that the person who killed her is dead and died in insane, apparently. Yeah. Tell me more. Tell me more. Like does she have a car? So they begged, they were like, Anna, come forward. Please. So they put it in the pay, like, please, Anna, just come forward. Tell us what you know. be anybody writing in. Anna showed up. What? Yeah. Okay. Anna showed up. She showed up at the police station. She came. And she was like, I'll tell you what I know. So her real name was Una Hainsworth. And she was going by Anna because at first she was like, I don't know if I want to be a part of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she told them what she knew. She said she was formally married to a man named Jack Mossop. And after he was like fine, everything was good. They had a young son. They had gotten married. Everything was

wonderful, but suddenly he just began, like, changing. He was drinking more. He was hanging out with unsavory characters. He was staying out late. He would suddenly have money when, like, they didn't know where it came from. Yeah. And he was hanging around a man called Van Ralt, and she also mentioned another man, but I can't find his name. Yeah. They were apparently kind of bad news bears, according to her. And they were concerned. So one night, she said he came home from being out very late with Van Raltz. And he confessed to her that he and this Van Ralt character had put a woman in a tree. Okay. Imagine if John came home to you. And he says to you, he says, I put a lady in a tree. I'd be like, well, you should walk right back the way that you came in

and never come back again. I feel like you should stick your own ass in a tree right now because literally that's where I'm going to put you. You're like, I have a true crime podcast. I can't know this information. stick you in a tree. So Mossop and Van Ralt had apparently gone, some people, some versions of this have another man involved. I think there was, it seems likely that there was another person. They had gone for a drink at the Littleton Arms, which was in Hagley. It's like a pub. Apparently this woman, who he referred to as the Dutch woman, was with them. And later that night, they're driving back, and her husband Jack was driving Van Ralt's car.

And this Dutch woman, according to him, was in between the two men in the backseat. And he said the woman was drunk or acting very strange. She referred to it as was acting awkward. Okay. Which I was like, same. So it sounds like an awkward situation. And she just suddenly passed out while driving, like flopped over onto one of them. Now, one story says that Van Ralt thought this was like, oh, I have a funny thing we can do

because she passed out. And he was like, let's put her in the hollow of the tree. And she'll wake up in the morning and be, like, frightened into changing her ways. Oh, okay. Because who are you? Which change your damn ways, motherfucker. That one doesn't seem as likely, but I think it was him trying to make it less nefarious. Yeah, quote unquote, innocent.

The other one says that while they were driving, Van Ralt told Jack that this Dutch woman, he was like, she's dead. Like she slumped over and he was like, did she pass out? And he was like, no, she's dead. Which is like, did he poison her? Did he do something? And he told him drive to Hagleywood. Like he immediately was like drive there. And then he forced Jack to help them stuff her into the tree.

Oh, man. Now he also was apparently so upset about this that he was sure he had just had a nightmare. He was like, this wasn't real. This didn't happen. So he went back to the tree the next night and she was still there. So he had originally thought she was a German spy. Like, there's like spy theories that was during World War II. Well, in one, I'm not going to go into the one that like a lot of people talk about because it's been proven false.

So this just literally no reason to go into it. But the spy stuff just makes it even weirder. Yeah. I just think it's crazy. So he started, according to her, after he told her this, things got bad obviously because she was like, what's happening. He started acting stranger and stranger. more and more erratic and volatile. So she left him. She took her son

and she was like, bye. Well, he was probably eating away at him. Well, he later told her after, so they divorced, and they still talked a little because he was having a lot of trouble with this. She cared about him. And he was starting, he was saying that he was losing his mind because he kept having a recurring nightmare of a woman staring out at him from a tree.

And when the police wanted to talk, yeah. Fuck you. And he said, I, I'm having it every single night. I can't. Every time I close my eyes, I see this woman leering at me from a hollow of a tree. Why did you say it again? Learing at me from a hollow of a tree.

That's spooky. Just staring at me from a hollow of a tree. It's like the telltale art. Yes, it is. It's the same thing. But like more scary. But like a woman in a tree. So it's like the same thing.

That's so terrifying. So the police, when she tells them all this, are like, hey, can we talk to Jack? Yeah. But he died, right? Well, at this point, they didn't know that. They were like, what? They didn't know if she was telling the truth about that or what. And they were like, where's Jack?

And she was like, well, he was committed to the Stafford Mental Hospital because of this. He couldn't, with those recurring nightmares, he was literally like losing his mind. And he died at 29 years old in the hospital. What? And it was before the body in the witchelm had been found. So he knew she was there and she hadn't been found and that was making him go crazy. Look at my arm. Yes.

Because honestly, and this is record. It's record that he died in this hospital. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's record that he was complaining about these dreams. And if she had been found, I don't think that would have been the way. Because I think he was having these because no one found her. Right. And no one was like, I think he probably would have felt some sort of relief if someone found

her. But he was losing his mind because he knew she was there. No one knew. He was the only one who knew that. You got to tell someone, man. You got to. Too late. Yeah.

So on record, the way that Anna or Anna, I always say Anna because of Frozen. Or is it Una? Well, yeah. But she had originally said Anna, but yeah, it's Una. She had written about this. She said, I had no knowledge whatsoever of the Hagueley murder until an article appeared in the Express and Star newspaper. Neither had I read anything before, which I could in any way be connected with the incident I've told you about. I have not discussed the matter with anyone.

and it was not until I was reading the details and bearing in mind the possible date when the woman met her death that I in any way connected with my husband's statement to me in March or April, 1941, and because of the articles referring to witchcraft, etc., I decided in the first place to write a letter and sign it, Anna. So she was saying, because the witchcraft stuff was coming out and she was like learning the details about this woman being found, she was connecting it with her husband, and then she was like, I have to stop them from going further into this witchcraft. bullshit because it's just not true. Right. She wrote, I put sufficient clues in the letter, which would have helped them identify me.

And it was only because of a subsequent appeal in the newspaper and because I felt I ought to say what I know of this matter that I decided to arrange to meet you. So she was like, I sent it thinking I'm not going to say anything else. But when you guys asked me to come forward, I felt like I had to. How could I not? Which to me is pretty like, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. So bringing us forward, because nothing really came.

of this, he's dead. They couldn't find Van Raltz. It's just so it all just kind of went by the way said. It makes sense though. Well, in February 2018, a woman named Caroline Wilkinson was asked to recreate Bella's face

based on her skull. She actually had rebuilt Richard the 3rd's face after they had found his remains under a car parking garage in England. And apparently she was like amazing at this. She was a professor of craniofacial identification at Dundee University had to use photographs to do this.

Why did they have to use photographs to do this? Because they lost her skull. They lost Bella's skull. What? How do people lose these things? Seriously. Like, come on. It makes me crazy.

Like, where do you misplace a human skull? They lost the skull. That's nuts. She, in Birmingham counselor Peter Douglas Osborne, who is like very invested in the Bella case and it's like considered an expert on it, said searches have been conducted by the police museum volunteers and they have confirmed that we hold no exhibits and can find no documentation that may relate to the case at either, at either of the West Midlands police museums. Wow. But like where did it go, bro? I don't know and that makes me insane. That's nuts.

Caroline Wilkinson was asked to do this facial reconstruction by the authors of the book I mentioned. And they were the ones to publish the facial reconstruction in the book. And it's crazy to look at it. You're like, whoa, because it's like the teeth and everything. You're like, that's her. Yeah. So we'll post photos, but like definitely check out those two books. I highly, highly recommend because they have so many cool, like, just features of the investigation in them. I'll post them in the show notes. But that's where we are. Dang. We do not know who put Bella in the Witchelm, but I am guessing it was Jack Mossup and Van Ralt. Yeah, I think that we know. Yeah. Wow. I'm glad that we redid that one because I definitely feel like I learned a lot more this time. Oh yeah. There was much more in this one and I feel better about it.

Good job. Thank you. You're welcome. And I hope you guys feel that way too. And we also hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But that's whether you get drunk and stuff somebody in a witch elm, even though you're not sure if you poison them or not, like they just are dead. Yeah, don't put anybody in a tree. Don't do it. That's the moral of the story. Don't do it.