Morbid - World's End Murders

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

On October 15, 1977, seventeen-year-olds Christine Eadie and Helen Scott met some friends at the World’s End Pub in Edinburgh’s Old Town neighborhood to celebrate their new jobs and what they assumed would be the start of their adult lives. The next day, Christine’s body was discovered by hikers near Gosford Bay, while Helen’s body was discovered in a cornfield several miles away. The Lothian and Borders Police mounted a massive investigation to identify and apprehend the killer but, despite their best efforts, evidence was sparse and by the following year the case had gone cold. The World’s End Murders, as they’d come to be known, became one of Scotland’s most notorious cold cases, until it was reactivated in 1997 in hopes that scientific and technological advances of the previous two decades could lead them to the girls’ killer.Thank you To the Fabulous Dave White for Research Assistance References:Amos, Ilona. 2019. Scots soil experts hit paydirt in old murder cases. February 28. Accessed March 17, 2023. https://www.scotsman.com/news/scots-soil-experts-hit-paydirt-old-murder-cases-2512052.BBC News. 2007. Victim 'strangled with stocking'. August 29. Accessed March 15, 2023. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6968530.stm.—. 2007. World's End father gives evidence. August 30. Accessed March 15, 2023. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6970429.stm.Brooks, Lib. 2014. "Serial killer guilty of World's End murders." The Guardian, November 15.Carrel, Severin. 2007. Trial of World's End murders suspect collapses. September 11. Accessed March 15, 2023. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/11/ukcrime.scotland\.Carrell, Severin. 2007. "Murder jury told of 'shifty' man." The Guardian, August 30.Edinburgh Evening News. 1999. "World's End killer probe is wound up." Edinburgh Evening News, March 25.Gibbons, Katie. 2014. "Accused saw murdered girls as OBJECTs, he tells World's." The Times, November 12.Howie, Michael, and John Robertson. 2007. "Thirty years ago he murdered two innocent young women." The Scotsman, September 11.Johnston, David, and Tom Wood. 2008. The World's End Murders: A Thirty-Year Quest for Justice. Edinburgh, Scotland: Birlinn Publishing .Leask, David. 2014. "Edinburgh World's End murder trial underway." The Herald, October 14.Leicester Mercury. 1977. "Douible murder hunt starts after teenage girls found dead." Leicester Mercury, October 17: 17.Macaskill, Mark. 2014. "World's End 'shows killers won't escape'." Sunday Times, November 16.Mega, Marcello. 1997. "Gangster linked to girls' murder." Sunday Times, March 23.Robertson, John. 2007. "World's End accused blames brother-in-law." The Scotsman, August 28.Rodrick, Vic, and Marcello Mega. 2014. "'One-in-billion chance DNA is not Sinclair's'." The Herald, October 25.The Herald. 2014. "Defendant touched 'most if not all' ligatures, says expert." The Herald, November 5.—. 2022. "My parents feared for me after World's End horror, says Ian." The Herald, October 17.—. 2014. Victim of World's End murder struggled as killer tied her up. October 21. Accessed March 15, 2023. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13185780.victim-worlds-end-murder-struggled-killer-tied/.The Times. 2007. "Wife of man accused in World's End murder trial agrees to speak." The Times, September 1. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022)Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023)Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash KelleyListener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra LallyListener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. Sure is. Still morbid. It still is. It always will be. Forever and ever and always and always. We're going to be like cockroaches. We'll never die. Oh, I was like, we'll be around even after the apocalypse. Oh, wow. It'll just be us with two microphones being like, hello. So I think we don't have a whole lot to get to today before we jump into the case, which the case this week is Babbel John. I know. I'm pretty excited for this. Yeah, it's like a little continuation of Peter Tobin. Because it connects. Monst-staff. And we had a lot of people from the UK and from, you know, like all around the area being like, yay, I'm glad you're covering this because this is huge here. So I'm so glad that you guys are psyched about it and that I didn't ruin things or screw.

up things. So like, good job to me. And also I think the last couple of days on social media, like on our Instagram, we've been asking people to give us ideas for Halloween costumes for us. And first of all, you've all had amazing ideas. You guys are killing it with the ideas. And keep it coming. Like we are loving it because there's a reason we're asking for these ideas. Let's make heads tell you. We can't tell you yet, but we're going to hopefully tell you. you, I think, the coming week or so. Yeah, I think not, I want to say not this coming week, but the week after. Yeah, I mean, we'll let you know. You'll know. We're like, we actually don't really know. We actually have no idea. It's going to be very soon, though, because, you know, Halloween's next month. So,

yeah, so we're going to tell you very soon it's exciting. We can't wait. We can't wait to, like, utilize some of these ideas. And if you didn't get on Instagram to, like, hit us up with your Halloween idea, we'll do another post. Yeah, we'll be like, what do you think. Yeah, so you can throw in what you think because you guys are so creative and amazing that I just love it. Yeah. Somebody said that, because we asked like specific things like, oh, like what Game of Thrones things should me be? And somebody said one of us should be a dragon and the other should be a dire wolf. That was a great one. That would be hilarious. I loved that one. It was just so good. Love it. So keep them coming. And I think the only other thing we wanted to mention was

new merch in the merch store. Yippee. And there's some really great stuff there. We did a design that kind of like captured both of our essences. Yeah, it was like a mixture of both of us. Yeah, like a scalpel and a pair of shear. So there's that. There's like a bunch of, there's like a tarot card one. There's a Ouija board one. Yeah. So there's a lot of cool stuff. And you can go check that out at shop dot morbidpodcast.com. And of course we will be adding more stuff all the time. Yes. I know, switching it up. A lot of people want to see like zip up hoodies and like some people asked, people are still asking for, sorry about that stutter. People are still asking for, um, rhinestone. butt sweatpants. Oh my god, yes. I just want to see the merch company's like face when we ask for that.

Right. They're like, so can we have this? We were just actually wondering if you could print that on the butt. Could you bedazzle this for us? Thank you. Thank you very much. Probably not going to happen, but we'll give it a shot, guys. We'll try it. We love you. We'll do what we can for you. We want to give you the world. So if we can give you the world bedazzled with rhinestones, we'll do it. There is. Again. So I think without further ado, Babi-jong. Let's talk about Babel-Jong. Let's talk about Babel John. The Bible. So we connected him from last week, or last episode, excuse me, because a lot of people think that Bible John, who is technically an unknown, unsolved case, a lot of people think that he is Peter Tobin. A lot of people think. Peter Tobin is him. They solved it. They think they solved it.

I don't know. Oh, okay. I'm not sure. I'm, I can see both sides of it, but I'm not convinced. You're going to play devil's advocate. I'm not convinced. So, and I don't know. I feel like we actually got a couple of emails from different UK listeners. And like more people said they didn't think that he was, that Peter Tobin was Bible John. But we did get a couple that said they were convinced that he was. So it's interesting to see like what everybody thinks. But you're with the majority? I'm with the majority.

I'm standing firmly with them right now. So this is, like I said in last episode, he's known as Scotland's Zodiac Killer. I know. I think that's crazy. You know, he's like infamous and obviously it's unsolved as of yet. Also, a lot of people don't know if these, so these are three murders that are connected to him. A lot of people don't know if these three murders are technically the same person. Are they, because are they different?

Not really, but there's a lot of people think that the first one that we'll talk about, obviously first, is kind of a one-off that happened. And then the two that followed were copycat. Oh, okay. But I don't know. I think it's the same person. When I think about it, when I look at it, to me, it seems like the same person. So just to clarify, you think that it's the same person that committed these three murders, but you don't believe it's Peter Tobin. Exactly.

Okay. But, you know, let me spell that out for myself. You're like, so wait. Let me get it. Like, let me catch myself up here. So the first murder was in Glasgow, Scotland. It was on February 22nd, 1968. Okay.

So his first victim was Patricia Docker. She was 25 years old. She was a nurse at the time. She had brown hair, brown eyes. She was considered, she was very pretty. She was very, she was petite. She was just like adorable. Yeah.

She was also married, but was separated from her husband and going, like, starting a divorce. Aw, Patricia. Her husband was in the military. They had one child together, a four-year-old boy. And while they were going through the whole divorce proceeding, she was living with her parents with her son. And this evening, February 22nd, she decided to go out to the Barrowland Ballroom, which we mentioned in the first, the other episode. That's where the dances were going on. This is where all, it's a dance hall.

So this is just like, you know, kind of like just somewhere you would go to like have a night out. Yeah. And she was leaving around 6.30-ish that night. And she was going to be going to their 25 and over singles night. I think it was like on Thursday nights. Oh my God. That sounds like fun, but also horrible. Well, here's the thing. So at this time, in Glasgow, I mean, dance halls in particular were like hopping.

Yeah. Glasgow was hopping. It was like the OG like club. It was lots of dance clubs, lots of bars, lots of nightlife going on. The Barrowland Ballroom was located in the east end. It was fairly popular, but not popular for the greatest reasons. Not popular because it was this really high end place. go and like it was kind of a place where a lot of married people would go to cheat on there, you know, and carry on affairs. It was basically just a pickup joint. Cool, cool, cool. Like you went there for that specific reason. Every city has one. Yeah, you got to have one.

I think the majestic ballroom was like maybe like a notch higher than the Barrelin ballroom, but it was kind of a similar vibe to it too at this time. Okay. So there definitely was a couple in the area that were like this, but I guess the Barrelin ballroom was like pretty. low on the totem pole. Right. The over 25 single nights on Thursdays were known as the time when people that were married came out of the woodworks. Like just coming out to try to cheat on their spouses. Wow, that's horrible. They were also a lot of older women that would attend these,

like older like cougars. I was going to say like cougars, if you will. Yes, I will. So much so that in an article I read on the Daily Record, they, labeled this night. Like a lot of people would call it, grab a granny night. Shut the fuck up. Grab a fucking granny night. I'm out. Grab a granny night. That's fucking hilarious. Get out to the barrel ballroom, barrel and grab a motherfucking granny. See, I feel like as a 25 year old, I wouldn't be going to grab a granny night. No. I feel some competition with the older gals. Nab banana night. Nah banana. Oh my God. I'm trying to think of one. Move with a me ma'am on night. You're killing. Did you write that down? I didn't write any of the stuff. Off the cuff over

there. I can show you. I'm like trying to think. It's too gloomy. It's too gloomy. Maybe that's why I'm inspired. I'm like gloom gets me going. So yeah, so grab a granny night. Move with a me mom. That's my faith. So that is where she went this particular night to grab a granny night. Not a granny herself. Not a granny herself. But she was, you know, she was 25 years old. She got to go to the 25 and older singles. And she was in the process of getting divorced. So I'm sure she was like, just trying to get back out there. Well, I'm sure it wasn't. all manas and grandpas. Yeah, I think it was just trying to get back out there.

She was like, you know what? Maybe, and you know, I'm sure going through something like a divorce, obviously I've not gone through one. So, but I imagine it's a traumatic experience, no matter what, you love to that person at some point. And it's like, you probably feel a little like knocked down a peg. Yeah. You want to get some attention and feel like you're, you know, like get some attention

from a vibe from someone else, you know. Honestly, to reference my last episode, she wanted to be young and getting it. Exactly. She was young and she wanted to be getting it. And she deserved to get it. She did. Petricia did. She was a nurse. She worked hard. Yeah. Now, the problem was that Patricia had told her parents she was going to another dance hall that night because she was like, I am not going to grab a granny. And people think like, you know, either she had planned to actually go to this other ballroom and like it just changed. Or maybe she was embarrassed to tell her parents because it had a reputation. I mean, I've told Mom and Papa that I was going to. like plenty of places that I wasn't actually going to. Yeah, maybe she just was like, you know what, I don't want to hear about it.

She had told them she was going to the majestic ballroom, which was a little bit higher end than this was. Okay. She did end up at the Barreland Ballroom, and this did cause some issues later in the investigation when everything happened. Because initially her parents thought she had gone to the majestic. So the following day, her body was found. Oh, Patricia.

No one had really, like she left the club, and now was it. No one saw her again until the. the next morning. Yeah. She was found naked, saved for one shoe on her foot. She was found near her home and laying side place and she was found by a man on his way to work. Oh God, that'll fuck your day up. And I guess she was placed near his garage. So he was just like, oh, okay. Her clothes and her purse were missing completely. She was very close to her parents home like yards away. Yeah. So this made a lot of people think like she must have been on her way home and was attacked because why would she be so close to home? Or maybe the person knew her family? That's the thing. It's like was it was it coincidental?

That like he happened to dump her really close to her home or? And you know what? Already I'm thinking not Peter Tobin because Peter Tobin took these girls to his home. Exactly. And he hid them after. Right. It wasn't like a display. He liked to hide this shit. Right. He didn't like to display it out. Bible John, if you see, is known for displays. For displaying. See, that's a total. Totally different M.O. Exactly. I've learned a thing or two. You have.

You really have. And you know, you're on my same page here. I love it. But yeah, the proximity to her house really can't be ignored. No. Just a coincidence. There has to be something to it. So she was on her back.

And this is interesting. Her sanitary pad was next to her on the ground. Because, yes, all three of Bible John's victims happened to be menstruating at the time of their deaths. That's interesting, because it's like, how would he have known that? Exactly. And we're going to get into that because in their pads were placed on or near them. Oh, that's so strange. So he made a show of this. Right. Which is interesting. And we're going to talk about it later, because I have some theories about it. That's like when we talked about the Papine sisters. Yeah. I don't know why I said it like that. Papine. Bapin. Bapin sisters. I made them like Italian,

I think. The Papine sisters. The menstrual blood. Like, it definitely means something. Menstrual blood isn't just coincidental. Menstrual blood is not just menstrual blood. It's not just, you know. Let me tell you, it's never just menstrual blood. It isn't. And anyone who's ever menstruated can tell you, it's not just menstrual blood. It's a hell of a lot more.

Maybe it's menstrual blood. Maybe it's Mabelian. You never know. I don't know. You know, maybe she's born with it. So she was. You know, she definitely was. We all were.

So her head was also in a position. Like, it seemed like he had put it looking to her right. side. Like it didn't look like it was just fallen that way. It looked like she was looking at her pad. Oh. Yeah. Which is just strange. Her head and face were beaten very severely. Oh, no. She had marks on her neck that indicated strangulation by some ligature. It was later determined that the cause of death was indeed strangulation. And it was also revealed that she had been raped. Oh, no. When she hadn't returned home the following morning after she left for the Barrelin ballroom, her parents reported her missing right away.

They had no idea that, because she was found the next morning, remember, they already found this woman, the police. But she hadn't been identified. The parents had no idea that that was their daughter. Oh, no idea. So when they called the police and reported her, they were like, oh, like we found the woman. Which is really sad. Yeah.

Of course, police went searching for answers because there was nothing going on at this crime scene that could tell them really anything. Right. He most, he took basically all the evidence with him. I mean, he left some DNA because he left semen in a lot of these crime scenes. But at the time, in the 60s, they could collect it. They just couldn't do anything with it. Now, one neighbor told investigators that she had heard a woman scream, leave me alone that night the night before.

But that's all they got. And it's like, why didn't they call the police? I would definitely call the police if I heard somebody scream, leave me alone. Like, I don't know. My dumb ass would be like, I'm out. Like, let's go save her. Yeah. Like, if you hear someone screaming, leave me alone.

Just call the police. Like, call someone. I don't know. Try something. Go help her. Just go, risk your life. Do it. Be a fucking hero. Be a hero. Don't you want to be? I don't know. It's just like, when you hear that, I feel like it should trigger something in you. Call someone. Other than just like, oh, that was strange. Phone a friend. I don't know. People, man. 50, 50. Earlier I said that she had told her parents she was going to the Majestic ballroom in that it had hurt the investigation. Yeah. Well, that's because now they were going and interviewing all the employees at the Majestic. And they were like, yeah, we didn't see her. And the employers are like,

yeah, we don't know. And they really dug in and tried to get any witness accounts or sightings of who she may have left with, whom she may have danced with that night. But she wasn't there. No one here. So it was a colossal waste of time. So it was like weeks, like a couple weeks that they were focusing on the Majestic. And that wasn't it. Right. Her purse was eventually found, not her clothing, but her purse was eventually found in the river cart. So somebody had thrown it in the river. Is that close by? It was close by. It seemed like they must have just thrown it out on their way wherever they were going. This would be the first of three murders, like I said for Bible John. All three were raped. All three were strangled either with their stockings or by his hands or they think that

Patricia may have been strangled by a belt. But it was never like, it was always a ligature. Yes. All three were menstruating at the time. That's strange. Yeah, and all had the sanitary towels left on or near them. And then all three of the girls' handbags were missing. And the contents were just discarded. They were either discarded like near them, somewhere else. But then the handbags were gone.

They only found that one handbag. Weird. So the next one was August 15th, 1969. So that was a year and a half later. So that's a pretty long cooling off period. Which is why a lot of people think that first one is a one-off. the other two. But like there's other one, like Jeffrey Dahmer. Between his first murder and his second one, there was like 15 years or something. It was like a

long time. Ted Bundy had a really long cooling off period before he went fucking BTCK, 30 years of doing nothing and then trying to start again at least. I can't remember. Ed Kemper had a little bit of a cooling off, didn't he? I think he did. I think you're right. I don't think it was a year of. There's definitely, there's definitely examples of them taking time off. I mean, that is long, I will say. And who knows if he wasn't in prison for part of that? Who knows, you know, people get sick. People get jobs that take up their time and they can't focus on it as much.

Maybe he had kids. Maybe he had kids. You don't know. The first two years is busy. You just don't know. I don't know. So the second one, like I said, a year and a half later, her name was Jemima McDonald's. She was 32 years old and she was a single mother of three.

Oh, God. So she went out to the Barrowland ballroom with friends. while her sister Margaret watched her children for. Yeah. The next day, she wasn't home. And her sister was getting really worried because she was like, she would have come home for her kids. This just doesn't make sense.

And she would have contacted us if she wasn't. So Margaret kind of asked around and was like, has anyone seen her? Have you heard from her? And then she started hearing rumors this following day that people had seen these young kids, like little boys, coming out of an abandoned tenement building

on McKeith Street. and that's in Bridgeton. And these little boys were talking about seeing a dead body in an abandoned house. Jesus. Like literally stand by me the body vibes right there. That's like, um. Just little boys being like, you want to see your body. I'm like, what's up with all the little boys in this town?

Because the early, in the last episode you did, they were playing with a dead dog's head. They were playing football with a dead dog's head. What's up with the little boys over there? Just boys being boys, you know? Boys will be boys. You know. Just kidding. But, but yeah, this is.

is like straight up stand by me. Yeah. Body style. Yeah. So she heard this and she's hearing these rumors and she's like, I don't know, I have a bad feeling. Yeah. So she went to sleep that night and she said all she could think about was that.

She still hadn't heard from her sister. And she's like, I got to know. Her kids are probably like asking for her. Well, and for the next morning, so the next morning, which was a Monday, she was, her sister was so concerned, she went to that house. Oh, wow. Ho! I just got like chills.

She found Gemima's battered body Oh my God she found her sister And she had a feeling She knew it That's like

That's some sister shit right there And she found her sister In a fucking old abandoned tenement house After little kids were talking about Seeing a dead body Wow Yeah Like that's some shit

Because that could have been anybody's body Yeah Or she just knew It's like making shit up Wow That's what she was like I would have been like Little kids are weird Right

They make shit up but she was lying face down on the ground. She was fully clothed, but her clothing had tears and like rips and was all disheveled. Her stockings and shoes were placed next to her as well as her sanitary pad. She had been beaten exactly like Patricia, her head and face. She was clearly strangled and had been raped as well. It was determined that her own stockings were used as of the ligature to strangle her with. And they said always that the cause of death was strangulation.

it was never the beating in the head and face. It wasn't severe enough to kill them. Oh, wow. But it's like, it's fucked up to make a difference. Right. They started, so the police started speaking with anyone that they could again,

and they're trying to get information, since, again, not much of evidence is left on the scene, except for semen, which they found on the stockings and such, but they can't do anything with it. So her photo was actually put on the huge screen at the Barrelin ballroom. Oh, wow. And because of this,

witnesses came forward and were like, hey, we can help because we remember seeing her. Oh, good. And they were like, so they said, they thought she came around 7 p.m. And she was seen speaking with some random dude. And they said, this guy had a Glasgow accent. He was tall. He was slim. He had short red hair. And he- It's always a fucking ginger. It's always a fucking ginger. As a ginger, I'll say it. And around midnight, the two of them were seen leaving together. Shit. Uh-oh. These witnesses were asked to work with a sketch artist to get a composite for the man, and they did. It's not the famous sketch that everybody's seen, the one that we posted, I think. It's a different one. Okay. He does look similar to the other sketch, but it's not that one.

He just kind of looks like a guy. Does he? Like, there's really nothing that you're like, oh, I would know that guy. Like, it's just a guy. He could look like any guy. Yeah. A lot of guys look like other guys. It's true.

But, like, a lot of people would be. like, oh, Peter Tobin looks just like that. And I'm like, not really, first of all. And second of all, like, you could stick a lot of guys. And you could probably stick Ted Bundy in there and like force him to look like that. Yeah. You know, like it's just the, I don't know, it just doesn't make sense. Throw some red hair on. Well, in the first sketch didn't have red hair. Oh, it because they didn't colorize it. So it was just like, oh, gotcha, gotcha. A like pencil sketch kind of thing. So it literally could look like anybody. Right. But interestingly, this was the first time a composite sketch, was distributed widely via, like, news and media in the UK.

Oh, wow. That's cool, too. On October 30, on October 31st, 1969. Halloween. Halloween. Not a good Halloween for this. A man was walking his dog in a field and found the naked body of a woman. The woman was Helen Puddick or Puddick, P-U-T-O-C-P-E-T-O-C, Puddick.

Put-ick. Put-ick. Puttick. She was 29 years old. She was married and had two children, but I believe... I hate that all of them have children. Exactly. There's differing accounts of if she was married at the time or if she was separated.

Okay. So either way, she had two children. Interesting that they all may have been separated or divorced. Exactly. I actually say that later because it is an interesting little connection. I don't want to mess up anything that you're saying, but I do have a theory going. This guy is mommy issues. Oh, yeah, I'd say so for sure.

I'm knowing things. So she had been beaten in the face and heads severely. She was raped, strangled with her own stockings. The contents of her handbag had been scattered nearby, but the bag itself was missing. Her sanitary pad was put under her arm. Oh, that's very interesting. There were grass stains on Helen's feet, which investigators took to see that there was definitely a struggle. She tried to get away.

And they said she definitely fought and tried to escape. her killer. She also had a deep bite mark on her leg. Oh, wow. Yeah, which is fucked. Bundy vibes. Very Ted Bundy. She had managed to tear off one of the killer's cufflinks and it was found at the scene. Oh, wow. That's great. And this is very interesting because in, so, and this is in regards to connecting it to Jemima's case especially, because the man they had a sketch of and the one that witnesses saw her speaking with and dancing with that night, they said that he was, one of the things that said about him was that he was dressed very nicely. And cufflinks are like nice. Yeah. And they set like a suit like dapper as fuck, which was a very out of place for the venue. Right. Barrel end ballroom was not

somewhere you came in your three-piece suit. Like you said. Yeah. So a cuff link seems right on par with this. Right. Her killer was dressed so nice. He was wearing cufflinks. Right. So these two connect to me. They asked around the area and one woman said she thought she heard screams. Good lady. Yeah. call the fucking Po. Yeah, but she said she couldn't be sure. So, what? She was like, I thought I heard screams, but whatever. You're normally sure.

So after speaking to Helen's parents, they learned that Helen went out to the Barrelan ballroom with her sister, Jean, around 630 that night. Both Jean and her left the kids with Jean's husband. Because I believe that this is where I think Helen might have been separated because they left them with one husband. Yeah. Both women met men there. And they weren't doing anything wrong, but like they like,

dance, hung out with some people. Yeah. And they were kind of like hanging out with these men. And the man Helen was with said his name was John. Okay. And Gene, the sister, said that this guy was tall, slim, with reddish hair, and was dressed very nicely. Mm-hmm.

Sounds like the guy. Does. The other dude left at one point, the guy that was talking to Gene, the sister. Did they say it seemed like the two were friends? No. Oh, okay. Just totally separate. And John and the girls decided.

they were going to share a taxi back home. Because this is coming from her sister. Her sister's an eyewitness here. Yeah. Like has hung out with this man all night. That's fucking nuts. So her sister said he openly talked about, but did not directly quote the Bible. And he said he didn't like he was, he kept talking about like religion and like morals.

And he told the women, quote, I don't drink at Hogmane, I pray. What's Hogmane? No idea. He also said that dance halls were dens of iniquity. And why are you there? And he also told a story, like some Bible thing, where the woman was stoned to death for like adultery or something. And he's telling this story. And they were like, cool.

Like, they were like, this is weird now. Yeah, that's when you're like, glad that we shared this Uber. And this is obviously how he earned the name, Bible John. Don't share anything. If I've learned anything in life, don't share. Just don't do it. Jean said he really wanted Jean dropped off first. Of course.

He was assistant. Because he liked Helen. And he said it was because Gene lived the furthest. And he said he would, she would have to be in the taxi alone if she was dropped off last. Which is a good point. And he said he was worried about that. He didn't want her left in the taxi alone. Fucking preying on people.

And it's so logical that you're like, oh. You can't argue that. Yeah. So she also remembered that he said his name was like Templeton, Sempleton or Emerson, something that sounded like that. Okay. She couldn't remember exactly. She also said something like when he was.

was speaking, she noticed he had a tooth on the top right that kind of overlapped the one behind it, like a snaggle tooth. You know, it's so funny. I thought that Peter Tobin kind of looked like my old stepdad and he had that fucking snaggle tooth. You're right. Well, Gene was dropped off first because he wanted her to be. And Helen was like, I'm fine. And Gene's like, you know, like, she's and she, I, this is where like, but also didn't Jean have her children? Yeah. Oh. So she was like, but I think she was like, you know, Helen was. coming out with this. Gotcha, got you, got you. Sister. Yeah, like, I'm just trying to give you some time, you know. Because again, I think she was recently separated too, so I think it was like,

get it girl. Right. You know, like, I'm just going to let you. Female empowerment. Of course, Helen wasn't fine. So they, this is, you know, the next morning, she was found in the field. They created a, so Gene helped create a composite sketch. Because you imagine having to do that while you're also mourning the loss of a horrific death. And this is the infamous. sketch, like the with the red hair and everything. And again, Gene shared a taxi with this guy, and like spent like most of the night with him. So we can believe her description here. Yeah. And police now knew they had three connected cases because of everything we said. Now, little side note, at first I was, I was starting to think like what they were actually calling this killer

because they were like, yeah, these three cases are connected. But serial killer wasn't a term until later, as far as I knew. Holden Caulfield, not holding Cawfield. Holden Calfield. Holden, Special Agent Holden hadn't stepped on the scene yet. I'm leaving. You know, hashtag Jonathan Graff. So, but then I did a little research. Of course you did. And it may have been a term kind of, like before Robert Resler was actually credited for it in the 1980s.

But they, Holden Caulfield. But then apparently way back in the 30s, a guy named Ernst, August, Ferdinand Gannat. Hell yeah. The director of the Berlin criminal police used the term, I'm going to butcher this and I apologize. Serian Mordor in reference to the case of Peter Curtin, who's the vampire of Dusseldorf, we'll cover that. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. And in English, this roughly translate to series murderer. Right.

Fascinating. Fascinating. Back in the 30s. Yeah, I love that. That's interesting. I don't know if they were referring to Bible John as a serial murderer. murder at this point or like a series murderer. Yeah.

Like it's interesting to think about. I couldn't find anything of what they were actually calling him. I want to say they talk about that in, um, what's the show that we always talked? Mind Hunter. I think they talk about that. Do they? They say something about series murder, how it used to be called that. Yeah.

It makes sense. So it's like, huh, that's cool. That was a fun little fact. A little fact. A little bit. A little bit. So, um, a man matching the sketch was seen at 1.30 a.m. that night by another witness. They said he was very distanced.

They said he was very disheveled because he had just beaten a woman. He had scratches on his face. Because she fought like hell. Yep. And he was headed from the bus to the Clyde ferry that night. Because he was getting that out of there. Which I can see why people are connecting it to Peter Tobin

because that was kind of his M.O. too. He did the deed, then ran. Yeah, but he also brought them with him. Yeah, exactly. Now, tips started coming pouring in. They were like, they said something like 200, over 200, 250 tailors were interviewed in the area because he was known to wear a suit. None of them could recognize him at all.

They were like, I've never seen him. A bunch of barbers, like almost 500 barbers were because he had a very like slick hair, very slick haircut. They interviewed over 5,000 suspects and got nothing. Wow. Over 100 detectives worked the case and they took over 50,000 statements. So one thing I wondered was like, did they interview the taxi? driver? I feel like maybe, but also it might have been really hard to narrow him down.

But like, I don't know, because it's like a certain time he picked her them up. Yeah. You know, for a cab company. How big is Glasgow? I mean, it's, I don't know if that would affect it. Like, I don't know if it's the area. Because, like, think of trying to find one, like, taxi driver in New York is like what I'm thinking. Yeah, that's true. But if it's like a certain, like, if it's like a certain company and I don't know. I don't know if it's the same as over here. No, this is your case. I don't know. So this is also when 16 police and investigators started staking out the Barrowland Ballroom,

trying to mesh with the crowd, like dressing like, you know, civilians. And they were trying to see if they could spot this guy, because obviously all three of them, he met them at the Barreland ballroom. That was his place. They were led by Detective Superintendent Joe Beattie, and Gene went with them sometimes, the sister of Helen. That must have been horrible to have to go back there. And she always tried to help with like sketchups, sketches, lineups, like all that shit.

She was always trying to help the case. Good for her to like to do that. Yeah, she was always into it like till the day she passed away. It remains unsolved. I know, that's so nuts. Yeah, it's insane. So some of the theories are that maybe he was in the military and went overseas. Mm-hmm.

And that's why, because again, it's stopped. Right. After that third murder, it stopped. And I'm sorry, what year? Was that last murder? Was it 71, did you say? No, that last one was 1969. Oh, 69. Okay. Where the fuck did I get 71? Not sure, but it's okay.

And they said, you know, maybe he's in the military. Maybe he went, you know, that's why it stopped. Maybe he was in prison for something else. Yeah. Or, like you said, he might have mommy issues and maybe he was being hidden. Right. By a mommy. Right.

Because it certainly seems like that could be the case. It definitely. That's the first thing. thought of. No, when it comes to the sanitary pads and the menstruation, like you were saying, how would he know? Yeah. Well, maybe his whole thing was he wanted to sleep with these women. That's what I was thinking. And he would get pissed when he found out that they were menstruating, and he freaked out and murdered them. But he raped them, though. But that's the thing. But maybe they were like, I'm on my period. We can't have sex. And he would get pissed. And then all the

the other times he would pick up women, they weren't on their period. So he would just have sex with them and leave. Yeah. But these women who said no, because I'm on my period, probably got him angry. It's kind of, I don't know if this is stupid to say, but it's interesting that they indeed were on their period because like how many times have you been like, I'm on a period? We can't. Yeah, exactly. So, but it's like, it seems like these ones were, you know, this is telling the truth. Yeah. And that's why he decided to make such a display out of it because it was the reason he was so angry. Actually, that is like, yeah. Because I can't really think of another. There's no other way reason. Well, and I can't think of another reason why he would display the sanitary pads. Because I feel like

it's almost like it was a fuck you to him and he made it a fuck you to them. Exactly. That's the thing. It enraged him that that was the reason he couldn't sleep with them. So he would rape them and then display the pad like, see, I still got to do it. Yeah. Like, you know. His like flag of like I did it. Yeah, exactly, which is disgusting. It's fucked. So all the way, you know, forward in 1983. All of a sudden this dude came forward and was like, whoa, I used to go to the Barrowland Ballroom all the time with my friend. And I was reading the papers.

And for five years, for five years, I was like, wow, this Bible John case is like really bad. And wow, that's crazy. And then it hit me that this guy was totally my friend I went to the Barrelan ballroom with. Took you a while there, buddy. Now, apparently this dude who is not named anywhere was living in the Netherlands and was married and nothing really came of this. So it's just weird. This guy just came forward and was like, I think it's my friend. And they were like, okay. And then that was it. Maybe they looked into his friend of it.

They must have looked into it. And they were like, yeah, you're dumb. He's never been named. So that was just interesting because it seemed like it was going to be a big break and then it was nothing. Yeah. Now, during the murder spree, people in the area thought that Bible John was this guy named John Irvine McKinnis. He was related to another suspect that was looked at. And he kind of fit the bill. Why? of what it was. Well, in 1980, unfortunately, though, he completed suicide at the age of 41. And he had done it by cutting his brachial artery, which is in your upper arm. That's random of that. Which is like a very random way to do it. Yeah.

So in 1996, they exhumed his body. Yeah. And they exhumed him for his DNA because they were going to compare it. And they compared it to the demon found, wrote the demon. It probably auto-corrected. It is Damon. No. It is. It's a demon. Simon Simon. His seat is Damon. It is diamond. They compared it to the seaman found on Helen's stockings, and it was inconclusive. Okay, that's annoying. So not enough to name him as the killer, but it's like not enough to roll him out either. And I think, like, when I said he fit the bill, I think he looked like the guy. He did go to the Barrowland ballroom. He kind of had, like, he kind of fit the whole vibe. So they were like, hmm. Like a lot of people were like, you should look into this guy. So that was like, hmm. Like, shit, you know. It's too bad they couldn't get, like, more of a sample. Exactly. And the sample was deteriorating.

The longer we're going past this. It's like, we're like how many years later. It's like it's deteriorating nothing. Then we fast forward to 2007. Shit. When Peter Tobin did his whole shit. So Professor David Wilson was the guy who pointed out the idea that Tobin was too old to just be beginning killing with Angelica Clucks murder.

Which is true. Like he was like, this does. that makes sense and how he behaved after it suggested that he had done it before also all of his wives said they were beaten raped and strangled by him yeah which is exactly what bible john would do but all of his like um not his wife victims like the victims that weren't his wife they didn't have very many similarities no well they they all were beaten right and most of them were strangled to some degree but they weren't killed by strangulation yeah he also met his first one wife at Barrowland Ballroom, and people think that he does kind of look out like the sketch,

but I don't agree. I don't think he looks like the sketch at all. Yeah, I don't think he looks like the sketch. Also, Peter Tobin was short. Right. He was like five, um, five eight or something like that. He was like short as in not like short, you know, just short and compared to him. Then Bible John was said to be at least six feet tall.

Oh, wow. Like he was known to be tall. And you're not going to mistake that for that. Yeah, you're just not. And also, Peter Tobin doesn't have red hair at all. And I mean, I guess it could be like a lighting thing that like maybe some people thought he had red hair. But like I don't know. I feel like when dudes have red hair, you know it.

Right? Yeah. So, yeah, I just don't think he looks like the sketch. But his wives all also claimed that it pissed him off when they were on their periods. Okay, that's weird for sure. And that it put him in fits of rages. Huh? Fits of rages.

Fits of rage. I didn't even pick up. Like, why did that sound so weird coming out of my face? He was also a Roman Catholic. He was also super religious. Uh-huh. So Bible. That does, it does check out.

I wonder if he had mommy issues because we didn't really know a lot of his childhood. I do wonder that because you don't know a lot. So he was 510, by the way. Okay, not too far. So he wasn't short. He was just not over six feet. Right. But that could be a mistake.

Well, I have no like. I know. I'm really bad at that too. Yeah. So I could do that too. be like he was six feet like like i could say that john was like six seven and the other thing it was all these women were short so he probably so maybe in comparison he looked like six feet right so maybe i didn't even think of that before so maybe it's not because you you make john look taller because you're

tiny next to him not bible john you're john yeah um i mean in the beginning like when you were going through all the murders i was like no no no but now that you are saying there are saying that makes sense i just i'm not i'm not either way right but i'm not totally on the other side. Exactly. That's why I'm kind of like, I get it. I got both sides. Yeah. Two women did come forward at this time in 2007 to say that they had been attacked or almost attacked at the Barreland Ballroom by Peter Tovin. Stop going to the Barreland Ballroom. I know. They both said that they saw his photo in the media and they almost fell over because they were like, he's 100% Bible John. Wow. And they were like, this was around the time that like Bible John was doing his thing.

Yeah. Professor Wilson, the guy who first said like, you know, the Angelica or the Angelica Cluck murder was not his first. Uh-huh. He said that he knew they, he was like, I know these two people are the same people. And he was like, during the trial, he was like, Bible John is Peter Tobin. Peter Tobin is Bible John. Right. And he said that, and this was during the trial for the murder of Dynamic Nicol.

Yes. And so she was the one who was hitchhiking with that guy, David Tremlett, who she met at the music festival. Yeah. And David Tremlett was dropped off first, left her with Peter Tobin. Just like how the Helen was. Exactly. Helen's sister was.

And he said that the man who killed Dinah was very superior acting and like very like sanctimonious. I can't picture like Peter Tobin being sanctimonious. I know, but he was because he was like, he was very like, he used his religion a lot to like be high and mighty. Right, right, right. And Gene, Helen's sister said the man who killed her. her sister was the exact same way.

Sanctimonious. Very sanctimonious, very superior acting. Like, same exact thing. Interesting. Now, apparently one of Peter Tobin's known aliases, because remember, I believe he had over 50 aliases. Yeah. Was John Semple. And she had said it sounded like Templeton or...

Exactly. She had actually said his last name was Templeton or Sempleton or something like that. And he's... And it's simple. John Semple. Huh. Uh, but she had actually said, his last name was Templeton. He says, Gene, Helen's sister, who spent the whole night with this Bible John who killed her.

She said Peter Tobin is not Bible John. Hmm. So maybe he just didn't age well. That's the thing. It was so long ago. That's really the only thing that, like, gives me pause is the sister saying that he's absolutely not him? Right. You spent the whole night hanging out with him.

That is true. You started a taxi with him. That is true. Like, I don't know. The only thing that I can think of is, like you said, like a lighting issue where it was, it's always dark in bars like that. Exactly. You're driving home in a taxi at night.

Yeah. But I could definitely. And it was a long time ago, so maybe change. But you're right. The sketch looks nothing like it. It doesn't look like him. I don't think it looks like him at all. No.

So Gene passed away in 2010. Oh, RAP Gene. Weirdly, her last name was McLaughlin. Shut the fuck up. An alias Peter Tobin used. That he would almost do as a fuck you. Yep. If you think about it.

Which I thought was like, that's weird. Isn't that weird? That gave me a little bit of a chill. Yeah. I really think that's weird. And they did test the DNA on the stockings and compared it to Tobin's DNA. And it didn't match. But that could be because it was decades old and then deteriorated almost to nothing. It's just not a good sample to use. That sucks. I think anything would have said no.

Yeah. Now, David Wilson, the professor that we talked about before, he said about this case about Bible John being Peter Tobin. He said, quote, I didn't set out to prove Tobin was Bible John, but I would stake my professional reputation on it. Wow. Yeah. Now, I mean, I don't know. I mean, obviously he's a lot more educated than we are.

It's, yeah. And it's like, I think some of the weird things about this are obviously the menstruation aspects. Yes. And what his wives had said. Which to me is, what I believe is that he would pick these women up to have sex with them. Uh-huh.

Some of them he was able to have sex with and went about his merry way. Yeah. The women who said, no, I'm on my period. He went into a fit of rage and murdered them and made a show out of the period. And then I also think that there's something to do, like you said, these women are single mothers. Yeah. He's very religious. I'm not saying all religious people are like this, but he sounds like...

He was like very, very... He sounds like a very, like, aggressive, like angry religious person that, like, is very judgmental. And it sounds to me, like, he might be using these women as an example of sin. Especially, like, some religious people, like, they take the Bible as, like, more, not a suggestion, but they don't take it, like, word for word. They warp it to fit their own. And I think he was, like, really somebody that did that. He seems like a hateful person that warped it to fit his hate.

Exactly. And I think he was doing that, like, the adulterous woman gets stoned. Yeah. And these are single, these are women who are separated and also single mothers. And now they're out and they shouldn't be out. Which she's probably saying like what exactly why you out. These places are dens of iniquity. You're a mother.

And I'm going to teach you a fucking lesson. I'm going to teach you why you shouldn't be out. Yep. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But again, technically it's an unsolved set of murders.

We don't know who Bible John is. I know that is weird. And we may never know. Part of me definitely thinks he's Peter Tobin, but then another part of me gives pause. He's Peter Tobin-esque. Yes. Yes. But a lot of serial killers are just serial killer-esque.

That's the other thing. It's like they all kind of play off each other. Right. And you can kind of fit them all to like each other in a little way. Right. Here or there. And there are some similarities that you're like, all right, that's interesting. And that, you know, that professor saying I would stake my professional reputation on it.

And I know some of the original investigators in the Bible John case have all said they believe 100% Peter Tobin is Bible John. Huh. But I don't know. I'm not convinced. I know. Well, and that happens sometimes. Like people are like, I would stake my career. that and I believe it. And then it turns out like you get like 100% match and they're like, well, shit,

like, call me crazy. Yeah. It's like maybe it's just, you just never know. I don't know. I can't. I honestly am not, I can't stand on either side of the fence. I don't know. Yeah. I want to stand on one side, but that one gave me like such an eerie feel. Yeah. That was a very creepy one. It's a strange one. So that's the tale of Bible John. Thank you. Bible John. The Bible. What's that, what is that from? Why do I keep saying not the Bible? I don't remember. What is that from? We remember we, like, it's from a movie that we used to watch a lot. What's that, what's that movie, everybody?

The Bible. The Bible. Like, somebody just says it like that. Yeah. Oh, man. That's going to bother me. Yeah, if somebody knows what, because I'm sure somebody's listening and screaming the answer. Yeah, exactly.

Just scream the answer at us, please, because I need to know. Comment it to us on Instagram at. Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on Twitter. A Morbid Podcast. Send us a Gmail. Morbidpodcast.g.com. And definitely shop our new merch at shop.

dot morbidpodcast.com. Yes, it's so good. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you got mad at somebody for being on their period and then you're like really beating them and like hurting them really badly and then you kill them and then you tape their sanitation bad under their arm because that's just really gross of you. It is. Stop having your mommy issues. Don't do it. It's like, come on. Don't be Bible John. Get out of here. Or Peter Tobin. Don't keep it that weird. Bye. Bye.