More Life with Carl Radke - Jason Wahler on The Dark Side of Fame during ‘The Hills’ and Saving His Marriage

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

Carl sits down with reality TV icon Jason Wahler (Laguna Beach, The Hills) for a raw conversation about fame, addiction, and recovery. Jason opens up about his struggles with mental health, multiple arrests at the height of his MTV fame, and how addiction took over his life. He shares the moment that finally changed everything, what sobriety really looks like, and how he rebuilt his life, marriage, and identity. Jason Wahler is a TV personality, author, and mental health advocate. Today, he’s a husband, father of three, and uses his story to help others find a way out. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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please contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hey guys, I'm Carl Radke. Welcome to More Life. On today's episode, we've got Jason Waller. Yes, Jason Waller. He is on my Mount Rushmore of sober men who just have done a lot of incredible work. So excited to have him here because he's a host, he's an author, he's a father, he's a husband, and he's an advocate for mental health and addiction. And it's such an important conversation that we're going to have today. But you guys might remember him from the hills and Laguna Beach. Can't wait to dive in here at Soft Bar in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. All right, guys, welcome to Moore Life. I am Carr Radke. We've got a very special guest today. Jason Waller, welcome to Moore Life.

Thank you very much, man. By the way, he's wearing an epic softbar green today, which I appreciate it. Hey, I did that on purpose, man. Looking good, my friend. I got a little look last night, so I want to make sure I match. Yeah, so Jason was here last night. We hosted an event with Sober Safe, which is a company that you're involved with and an ambassador for.

We had another friend of mine who's also been on More Life, Zach Clark. Yep. We had a kind of a panel last night. The three of us sat in front of around 50 to 60, people downstairs talking about sobriety, mental health, your story, advocacy. It was really special. I mean, how are you feeling after? Dude, it was. Well, I was just, I was just sharing, I think, the beauty of sobriety and being able to talk about recovery. It came out. I was hired yesterday, long day, but was re-energized, remotivated, being able to come and talk about something that we,

I think we all collectively were very passionate about. And it's just amazing to be able to do that. It's just you've cultivated and created something that's really cool here. And especially, you know, right here in Brooklyn. I mean, the fact that you have, have a sober bar. I mean, dude, it's like, who would have thought? 2005, 10? I mean, I was like, dude, I never thought I'd see the day that this would come to fruition. Well, that's been so fun, I think. It's been, you know, I almost have so much respect and admiration for people that got sober five, six, seven, eight years ago because I'm like, there's not a lot of options back then. Even the conversation around it is different.

Yeah. The places that you can hang out more comfortably, you know, I don't, it's like, I have so much respect for people that got sober very young and or, you know, years ago. The landscape has changed so much. I mean, I originally got sober July 23rd, 2010. You know, so I mean, in the last 16 years, which... Congratulations, I appreciate that. I wish that's when I stayed sober the whole time. But I think that's...

We're going to get into that. We'll get into that for sure. But I'm just saying how much it's changed, how much, you know, more awareness there is around it, how much more, you know, the stigma has been smashed around addiction and stuff like that. I mean, look, we have a long ways to go. But, I mean, addiction is the leading cause of death in America for 50-old individuals and younger. Can you say that again? Yeah, the leading cause of death in America for 50-year-old individuals and younger is addiction. And so, I mean, so many people are directly impacted.

And so if that's the case, imagine how many people, too, that don't struggle with addiction, but are directly impacted by the disease, right? So it's so often still in the day and age when it comes to addiction, people are just so judgmental towards it. And it's like, it's almost kind of like, oh, bro, you struggle with that. And it's like, dude, there's no such thing as recreational use of heroin or meth or, you know, drinking a bottle of vodka every day. Again, is think of that individual and what it is that they're going through, you know, to just make it through each day. I mean, that's a miserable existence. It's nobody wakes up and it's like, dude, I can't wait to destroy my life today.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I think if we can change that perspective and have people have a better understanding, I'm not justifying for behaviors or, you know, not saying that, you know, alcoholics and addicts need to have accountability for stuff as well. But people, I wish they just had a better understanding of what people really went through. And it's a slow way of suicide. I mean, that's really, if you want to truly look at it, addiction is a slow way of suicide.

And it's really, really sad to see people in that state. I mean, I look back when I was in the depths of my addiction. I mean, suicide was a part of my story. And to mine as well, I had some moments where suicidal ideation was very prominent. And that depression and anxiety and that come down, it was debilitating. And you just feel like you can't get out of it. Yeah. You know what I mean?

It's like everything just feels like it's closing it on you. And I mean, like that place to be is it is so miserable. Last night, I'm curious, was there anything that? surprised you. Zach mentioned kind of this, I'm a people pleaser. And Zach was talking about men are more likely to step out on a relationship than have that tough conversation with their spouse or sibling or partner or whatever. And the detriment of what happens on the other side is a cheating or betrayal or lies versus just having that tough conversation. I struggle with having tough conversations. And it was interesting to hear Zach talk about that. I'm curious like you're real quick. I'm

curious with what you just said. Why is it hard for you to have to have a tough conversation? have conversations. I sometimes worry about hurting other people. I'm a people pleaser. I really care about making people like me. Sometimes when I'm sharing something that may hurt the other or may be like a difficult thing they deliver, I'm worried that they may not like me anymore or they may not be friends with anymore, which is so far from what happens. If anything lying or not being real with them is hurting me more. I unpack that a lot, but I have to remind myself of that. No, and I think when he brought that up. It's fascinating because, I mean, there was definitely a time of my life when that was a huge part of, you know, I didn't want to address reality is really what it was. And that's why I stayed

removed from reality. You know, I mean, you know, alcohol and drugs provided me that escape that I was looking for, you know, constantly. But I've just noticed that when I can be just completely open, honest and transparent. And, you know, I kind of have this saying, it's like, say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it meanly, right? And so be able to communicate it effectively. It's a healthy boundary. It's a healthy way of communication for for yourself. And so again, is it's taken, look, I'm not perfect at it by any means. I think, again, is I'll be working on myself till the day I die. But again, is I'm definitely hitting those things head on way more than not anymore. You know, the people pleasing is another thing that I think it's, you know,

that's where I think some of those tough conversations come from. And I found out, and I think we relate to this is after I got sober and, you know, and got some time. I had some people that I respected be like, yeah, I think you probably should look into Alon on too. And I had a problem was saying no you know what i mean and and again forms of people pleasing and stuff like that because i wanted to be wanted and and have you know uh feel needed and for me like the greatest gift from sobriety it was the fact that i truly got to know myself again like that's the number one thing i really felt super connected with myself as a young kid until about like 10 11 12 and then when i started struggle with the mental health that's when it all started and i really started to lose identity

of who I was, but when I really reentered into sobriety, like, it was this self-discovery of, like, this person that was completely gone. And, like, I'm like, oh, my God, I didn't even realize I like doing this. I didn't really realize I enjoyed this, this, you know what I mean? So it's just been like this incredible discovery. Even just the little things. There doesn't have to be like these crazy, grandiose things, but it's just like the true identity down to like the most simplistic things I've been able to really assess. But that's what makes you Jason. And I think I honestly, I was smiling the whole time you said all of that because I feel like, you know, I got sober in January of 2021. The first year I entered into a relationship probably a little too soon,

then was infatuated and in love and really focused on this relationship. I still was staying sober and working program, but the relationship kind of took priority. But you mentioned something like getting back to that childhood self. And when I got, you know, the relationship ended, was kind of recovering and healing. I had to get back to like, who was Carl at age seven, eight? And I remember being at the baseball field with my brother. Yeah. And my dad. I had a big smile. my face, Kool-Aid stain on my lip. I'd be poking people. Hey, can I get a dollar?

If they had a concession stand at the baseball field, I'd get hot dogs and nachos. I would get baseballs out of the, if a foul ball went, I'd go running rabbit, return it. I was friendly. I was happy. I was running. I was outside. I was with friends and just being Carl. And finding myself in sobriety, like, I've really learned to love and accept myself

more than ever. And what's so cool is some people talk to me. They're like, I'm so afraid to, like, admit. And I'm like, no, it's so free. because it's like accepting that this is your story and the amount of other people that you can meet that are just like that. So everything you just said,

I disrelate to so much because people I think have noticed me on TV in the last year on Bravo where they're noticing like, I've had people come to be like, wow, you're having a great season. I'm like, that's me. It's actually me. It's truly who I am.

So it's cool to be recognized for kind of who I am. And I love that you talk about that childhood, Jason, before things kind of went a different direction. And now you're finding yourself appreciating that. And the cool part is, is like, I'm seeing those benefits and like really seeing who I am. So it's like I'm yearning now to keep deepening that relationship. But I don't have it all figured out today, dude.

Like, I mean, it's going to be a journey for the rest of my life because there's obviously seasons that come in. And I'm obviously in a very different season of my life in these last eight years. And I was eight years prior to that. I mean, just having a family and having kids and just navigating this. And as we talk about often, too, is like, it's because we're sober. It doesn't mean we don't have trials and tribulations. Life happens, right?

And so that's the cool part about this is there's, that if there's the opportunity to continue to have that depth with yourself as long as you're creating the space and the time to be able to do that. I love it, man. That was kind of our intro. I wanna get into the meat of this conversation,

but the podcast is called More Life, which I'm sure you can see on my nice little mic flags here. We're doing it right here. Let's go. Is there saying, and you just maybe upset it, but I don't wanna steal your thunder. Is there a saying or mantra that you kind of embody or live by? Zach, you know, is keep going.

I kind of stole that a little bit, but more life is more about just living life, taking advantage of your opportunities, really trying to seize, you know, the day and take advantage of that. No, I think something that I've really found myself, you know, saying or advocating on is, you know, my greatest deficits have become my greatest asset. And it's like everything that I've gone through is really an opportunity to be able to share that experience, strength, and hope with people. And it's like I used to look at it as such an embarrassment, so much shame around everything that I'd gone through and stuff.

And it's like after doing the work and going through the process, I was able to realize like, dude, like the good Lord had me go through all these things to be able to advocate and share for those that have gone through similar situations or that are going through similar situations to just be a support and provide relatability and connectivity to them to be able to have, you know, to potentially see a way out. So beautiful, man. Yeah. I love it.

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yogurt brand. Choose Activia. Feel good from the inside out. Visitactivia.ca for more details. I want to get into how a lot of people know you and how I know you, which is from watching you on TV. Yeah, man. Your story on TV was very big.

You know, a lot of us watched it and were big fans. I'm curious, like, before things got maybe crazy with MTV, like, what were the cool things that were going on at the time? Or was it all really difficult? That's a loaded question. I guess what was the coolest thing that happened during your time on MTV? I think it's important to bring. bring some context to this to give you more, just history of the story and stuff as well, because

like I said, my life was incredible growing up, had amazing parents, had amazing siblings still due to this day. But by 12 or 13 years old, I had this kind of really unique and crazy experience happen where it, you know, I really started to understand that I was struggling with mental health. I had severe OCD. I mean, I'd literally wash my hands until they had bleed and tell the point I'd have to put neoprene gloves on with neosporin on. And I was living this life, right, of just this underlying mental health issue, you know, and on the outside, people had no idea what was going on. And I was perceived as this like popular kid. I was athletic, outgoing, different stuff. And then it's like, you know, come home and behind closed doors, it's like, mom, dad, you know,

I'm dealing with this issue, you know, put the neoprene gloves on. You know, let's go see the therapist. And so it was almost like I was living this double life at a very young age. And so it's almost like I was struggling with it. You know, I was struggling with like the addiction thought process before I ever picked up a drink or a drug. Right. And so like that's the craziest part. And again, had very supportive parents. You know, I saw every psychiatrist, every therapist you could, you know, you could see. And again, trying to deal with this and navigate with this. And, you know, the 90s was very different, you know.

I was going to therapy in the 90s. And it's that, but I also didn't even know how to communicate this. It's obviously like, you know, my parents expressed and stuff like that. Look at his hands. You could see that there's an issue. Okay, well, you know, we did a little bit of therapy. And then let's put him on this medication, you know. And I was put on medication and helped mitigate the symptoms.

Never dealt with the underlying issues. So to kind of fast forward all that is that's when, you know, everything from that age of, you know, 1213, struggling with the OCD to just like losing side of who I was, you know, I mean, purpose, passion, identity, you know, just identity crisis. And then, you know, as you fast forward, I started struggling with alcohol. I went to my first rehab. But then after that, I ended up going to a wilderness program out in Utah. My brother was supposed to go outward bound. Okay. I ended up, I went to walk about. I think is what it was called. called. But I mean, like, dude, you went out there, you hiked, you mean, you whittled your own spoon and you, I mean, you like create a bow drill and I built my own backpack and you, you hike. And it was the first time I came back, I'd like a mustache. I'm like, yeah, dude, this is good. Looking at my pot. I'm like, dude, this is sick. So, went from there and then I went to a boarding school and I was able to manipulate my parents and getting me out of there after, you know, a certain amount of time and stuff and then came

back. And this was all when the season one of Laguna was going on. And, and then the time I get home and and the show had aired, you know, season two was taking place. And that's kind of when I was introduced to all this. So I say all that is like there was like this really interesting time. Like when you're, you know, you're going through puberty, like all the way up into, you know, 17, 18 when you're like becoming the most impressionable and like you're developing a lot. Like there was a lot of things that were going on in my life. You know, again, as you're already dealing with what every kid goes through at that age, but then accompanied by all these other things with underlying issues to the TV stuff to a lot going on.

So it was just a lot to try to process. We're still playing sports? Baseball was my thing. And I'd say probably 16 or 17, which is crazy because I mean, I dedicated my life to that since I was a little kid. And then, you know, I mean, alcohol became the number one priority dude. I mean, the baseball took away. Yeah, I mean, the last thing, I mean, it's crazy. I don't even know if I ever really talked about this or not.

Like on baseball, from when we played, Laguna wasn't much of like a baseball team. But one of the last experiences I had in high school baseball was, bringing a fifth of jack on the bus, just getting smashed before the game and smoking Sigs on the way back, dude. You know, getting suspended, but... I mean, that's just like this... I appreciate you being honest, man.

It's crazy because that's not how I was raised, you know what I mean, but that's just how out of control. But that's where you're at. That's just where addiction was. I mean, you're thinking you're going to smoke... Like, it's one thing to pack dips and stuff, but, like, smoke Sigs on the bus. The school bus is pretty gnarly.

It's just so stupid, dude. Well, so, I mean, you've obviously done some things. You're not probably. proud of. Same. And I think that is something, you know, I every once in a while I'll have something peek back in my brain from something I've done on TV or someone will remind me of something I've done on TV. Like I was fortunate. Like I got during my time on Bravo and still on Bravo, I haven't been arrested. But prior to being on Bravo, I did get a DUI. I have been arrested for some other alcohol related things. But I never really spent time in jail other than like a 24

hour. But I'm curious if you've had any. No, I doubt what? I mean, I've definitely seen you on some of headlines which you talked about last night, which I can't imagine being at the grocery store and seeing my face on it. I mean, I have seen my face on us weekly, but not for being arrested. Yeah. There's so many like elements to this. Like I mean, so from like a legal standpoint, you know, I mean, I ran into the law like a lot of times. I mean, I was arrested so many different times. I mean, there was one point in my life where I was arrested four times in six months in four different states and then actually a fifth time in a different country. And that's just how crazy addiction is. I mean, it is a disease of denial because you, like any normal person, I mean, after the first time, they would have been like, okay, I need to look at this. Let alone like five times. I'm like, ah, everybody that's in their early 20s goes through this. You know what I mean? Like, in four different states. In four different states. And I mean, like, and there was a point where it's like, you know, I was getting on planes like, okay, which attorney am I hiring? Like, which, you know, am I going to jail here? Am I not going? And I ended up going to jail for 90 days in Yakima County and Seattle for violation and probation. And so. Was there like a little bit of a part of you that was almost.

like the one that you can always kind of get up get out of it there was like entitlement and ego and i mean but it's also like there's a whole other part to this story because i think like look i love my parents so much and they're like they're a huge part of why i'm where i'm at today but wherever there's an alcoholic or an addict there's a codependent and sometimes they're just a sick if not sicker and my parents kept throwing pillows when i really should have fallen and so again it's no blame to them by any means and we've they've they've done a ton of work on themselves and stuff like that but i mean going through this process i think there was there was definitely the ego, there was the entitlement stuff that was going on. But, you know, it's like, yeah,

after, I mean, so many times you kind of feel like you're invincible for a little bit. Sure. And then that was when things started to really shift. So many times in my journey that you would think I'd hit these bottoms. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you've lested off four or five bars. I mean, well, it keeps getting worse. I mean, there was some, I mean, like, you know, not contemplation, but attempting suicide. I mean, like all these different things. And like, my moment of clarity wasn't at like one of those core bottoms, which is crazy. Which again, everybody's story's different to each his own. You know what I mean? But like for me, my experience was navigating and thank God I made it through some of those situations to be able to make

it out on the other end. So we talked about the jail like actually getting in trouble. But I think the other pieces too is just like the shame and guilt that I had like even though I was actively going to this. And that's the insanity of this. Right. It's like all this stuff was happening because of alcohol and I was so miserable. And I would I'd feel that. But I'm like, I'm going to turn to alcohol because it would take the pain away. I mean, that's like the insanity. Right. But like there was just so much shame and like, I mean, just constantly the constant reminder of like so it's like you're not only you have to live this, but then you have to constantly be reminded because of the stuff from the tabloids. And back then there was no social media and stuff. Like, so it's like, you know,

you had either news or tabloids. So it's like it was everywhere. You know what I mean? And what I mean by that is like social media is like, yeah, it would have been even further exacerbated because, you know, more people would have access. But on the flip side, too, is I think a lot of stuff could have been suppressed because there's all this other. There's all this other information, this other noise where it's like everything was hyperfocused. And I mean, like, I remember just like walking down the street. And I mean, you almost could feel like other people like talking about. You You know what I mean? Like, especially like in Laguna and like this, it was. Yeah, it's a small little community. It's a small community. And it's like, did your fame at all fuel more addiction?

Oh, 100%. I mean, look, the fame did not cause my addiction. I mean, I was pregenetically, you know, prone to this. And I mean, I'm Cherokee German and Irish. You know, should have had a stamp on the forehead when I came out of the womb basically saying that like, I'm German and Irish, so I relate. You know, so there was there was definitely a struggle from that. I mean, the fame definitely added feel to the fire, but it definitely didn't cause it. Did it open any other, I'll give an example. Like I start once I got on Summerhouse, you know, I was already partying and already in my addiction, but not really fully realizing it. But Summerhouse came along. We, you know, out of the gate wasn't like this huge show, but we definitely slowly. But like by season two, which is around

2017, you know, I'd be out. People like, oh, that's that guy. And like the fame of it was like, isn't that a trip? It was like a drug. And I would take pictures and girls thinking I'm cute. And they'd send me messages on Instagram. It also. also like fueled like this like I'm the best I'm the man I've got this huge ego and it fucked me up it really made me so imagine myself 100% so imagine everything that I was explaining at 17 18 identity crisis going to treatment dealing with a law mental health issues so pause there and then the moment that the commercial airs for laguna beach I go down to the gas station in laguna literally a commercial air in my life change I mean it was like I went down there and it was like Justin Bieber got out of the car so it was just

crazy the notoriety that happened from it. And so it's like all that stuff that I was dealing with was completely pushed to the side. And I was like, ah, I can focus on this, which is like a false sense of reality, a great deflection from everything that I'm going through. And I'm going to lean into this. And it was like, I'll never forget like what that, because it was just like this very normal life. And it was literally like the next morning. Like everything just changed. I was just like, holy shit. So then, yeah, like did you get invited to places because you were famous? And did that fuel? Oh, yeah.

I mean, it was. People almost say, want to meet the Jason from the show and expect you to act like Jason from the show. So you almost have to play that character. Play that persona and that character. And I mean, yeah, I mean, look, it's 18 years old. We were living like the dream. I mean, at least what we thought was the dream.

What year was this? 2005. Five. Okay. And so, I mean, like, we were literally being paid to party and like travel the world. I mean, like, it was nuts. I mean, most of your friends are looking for fake IDs. And it's like, we're like, oh, dude, come on the plane.

Let's go. We're going to go to Vegas or New York. and we're going to do an appearance. And it was like all your other friends that you were in school with are like in college going like that route. And it's just like there was nothing like it. You know, it was just such a trip having that type of experience.

It was almost like you guys were in like a band. Kind of. Like a rock band. Yeah. It was a trip, dude. Do you ever watch yourself on the hills like old episodes? I hadn't watched the show in, I don't know, it had been like 10 years or something. And Netflix picked it up maybe a year and a half ago or two.

And I ended up watching an episode. And I was just like, oh my God. How did that? I mean, it was, it was, it was, did you watch it alone or with your wife? No, my wife and my mother-in-law and like it was, it was, I mean, it was comical because there's obviously a lot of growth that's happened. But like, when I look back and I see that, I'm like, man, like, that kid was

struggling. Yeah. I mean, are you able to, you can reconcile it, but do you laugh at it or is it still brain? Because like, I can laugh at it now for sure. Good. Because I feel like that's when you have, there's some more comfort and you're doing the work if you can laugh a little bit at it.

Yeah, you know, I can laugh at it. but I'm like, like, I didn't realize, like, and it's crazy because I can put myself back in those moments. And like you, I was just kind of like survival mode, but like now knowing what I know having the knowledge and the wherewithal and the education that I do, I can look back. And I'm like, dude, man, I can see how much you were struggling. Yeah, you know what I mean? I can just see it on my face. Just my demeanor, my response.

I mean, just everything that was going on. I mean, dude, I was in the depths of addiction like at 18. You know what I mean? I was just. And it got worse and worse. And it's like, and again, it was not nearly as talked about as it was as it is today back then. And so when you look at that, like going through it, it was just a different time. Because like look at it real quick.

It's cool to be sober now, basically. Well, I was going to say half the reality shows out there have like a sober cast member. Like back then it was like, did they're surprised. Well, you were the bad guy, the degenerate, the piece of shit or whatever you want to say. And the problem is is that it back then it worked like it filled that care. I mean, obviously people have some people had their opinion, but it was like the guy's guy, right? And I mean, it was kind of like it was just an interesting thing to go through. But, I mean, that definitely added feel to that part of me.

Now, I appreciate the honestly. I'm watching it back because every so often with Bravo on Instagram, they will use an old clip. Okay. For something. Do you ever like randomly get served like an old Jason? Oh, yeah, dude. It's, I mean, every year. It's me with a top hat and two cigarettes, you know, for on New Year's.

I mean, it's a constant reminder. But, I mean, I crack up now. You just laugh at it. I'm just like, dude, I was freaking 20 years old. I mean, there's, you know, most. I think it's important for people to hear that. You know, I think a lot of people like, I mean, it's been 20 years. You know what I mean?

And so I think a lot of people can, you know, it's not like a year later. I think it's people can have a joke about it. I mean, the people that are the very, very, very few, at least to my knowledge, that have, you know, animosity towards me back then or frustration towards that. It's, I mean, it's, I think they kind of maybe look in the, Yeah, if they're on. But it's so much time has passed. But I can laugh at it today.

On his podcast, Chasing Life, I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta. CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life. Are some people just born happier than others? And what might they be doing that the rest of us aren't? Follow Chasing Life with Dr. Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, IHeart Pie. I mean, I wanted to ask you something because it's something that I think about a lot. And Kyle Cook and I talk a lot about, which is when we do get married and have kids, how are we going to talk about all this with our children?

Yeah. But I'm curious, like, how do you handle your past with your children and even your wife, you know, who may not have been there for some of that? And then still, like, that's part of who you are publicly. I guess how do you educate your kids or how do you kind of introduce to some of that or deal with the husband part of it all? Yeah, I mean, that's a really good. good question. I think it's a very important question. And so I think when it comes to my kids, I'm being very intentional when it comes to creating a very safe place for them and being the

example that I want to be able to be to them. And so what I've already started doing, and I started doing this with my daughter when she was four and she's eight now. You have two or three? I have three kids. I have a daughter, Delilah, who is eight, a son Wyatt, who is four. And then my newest August, who's 11 months. I can't believe he's. almost a year. So there's three of them. But with Delilah, I started this when she was four years old. We still do it to this day. And now my son Wyatt, he's been participating for the last like six months. And he's starting to finally catch on to it. There's a one or two questions. He just doesn't he didn't fully comprehend, but now he's getting it. But I do these four questions. And it's,

what was good today? What could we improve upon? What are we grateful for? And what's our goal for tomorrow. And not only do they answer the questions, but I answer back and at a very age appropriate way. And one, it's cultivating, you know, community and conversation with them, but really what I'm doing is creating a sense of safety for my kids that I want them to be able to come to me with anything that they possibly can. And I will tell you, I cannot believe. I mean, there's been moments where I've been in tears because of the vulnerability that my daughter already has at eight years old, communicating about things that she's going through and feeling safe talking to me about. I feel like she's 12 or 13 years old.

To further that, though, because the average age of first time use in the United States is 11 and a half years old. If that's the average age, it is younger than what, so it's younger. The average age of use in the U.S. is 11 and a half years old. Of alcohol. Any substance. Yeah. Wow. That could be tobacco to alcohol to marijuana.

When you hear some of that, it's like eye opening. Well, but you have to understand. Like for me, now the situation is very real. I have an eight year old. And so that, so kids are using at that age, which is. gnarly. It doesn't fall into the average age point, but that I know for a fact there's kids that are using at that age. And that even as with predisposition with family and environment, all that. Which is exposed to. And I mean, they're developing so quick. So knowing that, I want to do whatever I can.

And so, I mean, it's interesting because so kind of the conversation organically happened, my daughter's very smart. And she's like, Dad, why do you have two birthdays? And so it allowed this opportunity for me to actually, again, at a very age-appropriate way, open this dialogue up with her around alcohol and how daddy has an allergy to it. Our family has, you know, struggles with it. And as you get older, I'll be able to share more with you. But again, it's very lightly touch on that. And I mean, dude, she was so, she ended up writing me this whole card and tell me how proud she was. And so we're setting that example. And I think it's important, though, it's not only having those conversations, but if you're, you're entering or exposing that to them, whether you're having the conversation with

them or not just by consuming it. And so whether they're two, three, four years old, they see drinking wine, smoking cigars, whatever it is that you may be doing, they're very, very aware of what's happening. And so I'm sure my daughters, you know, whether we've been at a Super Bowl thing or, you know, she's seeing people have drinks and stuff like that. And I know she knows that, you know, that doesn't, and my wife's an or me, she drinks and stuff like that. But it's very, very seldom.

But I will tell you, like, the beautiful part about all that, man, is like, I'm the first generation and I don't know how many that's raising their family's over. And like, so I mean, like breaking the cycle is, is one of the most beautiful gifts to this. And my wife met me, my wife knew who I was. She met me, though, sober. And so she got to see, like, you know, got to meet me in like a really good state of mind and stuff like that. And, and, but I, like I said, I wish that I remained sober. I wish that was part of the story.

But it's not. I think everything happens for a reason. And so we went through some gnarly trials and tribulations through our marriage. And we moved together, geez, like almost 15 years. married almost 13 years. It's amazing. And, you know, like I said, I mean, originally got sober July 23rd, 2010, had years of sobriety, ended up relapsing.

But, you know, I ended up finding myself at the first floor at Hogue Hospital. I mean, she was giving birth to our daughter on the fourth floor. And so, I mean, we had to navigate a lot of different things. And there was a lot of healing that had to take place through that. But she's been the biggest supporter to me, man. And again, you know, just such a champion and advocate for me. And as a, again, like my parents, a huge part of why I'm out where I'm out. Yeah, and I think you, I've gotten this actually from a few of our listeners, just like,

of course, you and I addicts, you know, in recovery, but it's the spouses and loved people in our lives that aren't necessarily addicts or struggle, but they've had to support, show up, go through difficult times. Yeah, no, and so, look, I mean, my wife in the early stages, because she only knew me sober, only had so much knowledge around this, right? And so when I started to relapse, you know, she was somebody that was very codependent. She struggled with enabling and was actually contributing to the illness over the course of time. And, you know, not she didn't know that she was doing that.

I mean, she was really trying to help and think that she was doing the right thing. But again, is when you're an active addiction. We, you know, manipulation is a huge part of that to be able to get what we want. And so that was a very, I mean, there was a lot of damage that happened through that time. You know what I mean? Just me kept, you know, just keep going beating down and beating down on that because she just didn't know, you know, how to address or how to deal with this. But, you know, after so long, and I mean, there was so much stuff that had happened during that time, you know, that we experienced from just, you know, very pivotal

people in our life dying, you know, me going through this, you know, active addiction and there's so many life things that were happening, you know, she got to a place where, I mean, she had lost sight of who she was. To her point, she, she serves it like she didn't know what color she liked anymore, you know, she didn't know what food she liked. I mean, she was just so obsessed with the addiction trying to to fix it, right? And I mean, that's a true to, you know, I mean, that's where the codependency and stuff came into play. I think a lot of parents, siblings, like, you could lose yourself in pursuit of trying to really, that's why they call it a family disease, right? I mean, because it directly impacts, especially if you don't have the tools or the resources

of the boundaries to help navigate that. I mean, you're actually feeling that fire. And it's kind of like what I said about my parents. You know what I mean? It's like they were really, on the outside, they're trying to help, but they don't realize that they're not helping. I mean, I had to actually lying for me, you know what I mean, just to get me out of situations, because I was working in the recovery space when I was going through all this stuff. You know what I mean? And so, but it wasn't until, you know, she, you know, got to a place where she just had enough, man. I mean, the good Lord intervened on her and in her life and, you know, allowed her the opportunity to start going to Allen on.

And then like started to build self-confidence and things back and got to a place where I was basically intervened on again. And I mean, so if it wasn't for her, you know, I don't know that I would be here. I mean, it's, you know, through the work and the dedication that she had. And I think like something that's really important to talk about. And I've talked to her about this a lot is because like what those individuals have to go through like Ashley experience, you know, so much just trial tribulation trauma. You know what I mean? It's the things that she had experience. I mean, there was a point where for every night she just had her head on my chest to see if my heart was still beating.

You know what I mean? And like when the attic is struggling, it's like it's simple. Okay, it's like throw your hands up. You know, you go into treatment. You know, you have doctors, psychiatrist, therapist, you know, all these people taking care of you. and then it's like my wife in the situation was left her own device. It's like, all right,

go to Alon, go to a therapist and like process this and like deal with the newborn as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, like you really look at that. It's like, no,

she needed to like go get help herself. It's so off balance. And so we've talked about that a lot and are advocating more and more for that because, you know, the ones that are directly impacted by the disease go through so much. Yes. And we're the ones that struggle with addiction and get all the help when in reality is

they need a lot of help too. And so I think there's a lot more we can do. for those that are directly impacted. You mentioned Al-Anon, and I talk about Al-Anon. I've gone to Al-Anon even since my brother's past, which has been really beautiful to show up for others in those rooms. But I've also had to grief and process some of these things that still come up and show up for me.

And in Al-Anon, I told the story a lot, but it was last year I went to one, and I still had some feelings about my brother, and I'd shared kind of my brother's story in this room. And it was just a huge breakthrough. And I wasn't, you know, every time I've gone to A-A, I always get something I knew I needed. And the same with Al-Anon.

Yeah. I've always finding something in those rooms where it's unlocking or it provides a little bit of perspective of a POV. And I mean, like for my wife, it's, Alonon saved her life. I mean, she was able to get a sense of identity and purpose and passioning. I mean, like she was able to find her. Like so for like our journey through addiction is what she was able to find through Alonon in her own way, right? I mean, there wasn't substance there. And it's cool. I was trying to, you may have to let me see if I can remember this or not. I mean, one of the coolest things I heard about about like codependency is is basing your well-being and or emotions on how, how somebody is. else is doing. And like, I mean, like that is like, and it's like when you look at that, I mean, that's a pretty good example of like what codependency is. It's profound. And it's like, I mean, that's, that's where my wife was and, you know, was seeking that validation. But she's a champion. I'm married above my pay grade. I mean, she's stuck through me through, you know, so much. So many different, so many different journeys that I've had. And it's such a huge part, I think, of, you know, your story. I just love, I appreciate you showing that because I think sometimes the

spouses and, you know, the partners can get lost in some of the story that gets told. And I need, and like, I want to be very clear as like, did I needed her help. I needed her support. I mean, like, and she, she played that role. Like, I mean, I, I was at a place where I couldn't do it alone. And again, as I had, trust me, I had my, you know, whether it was from a recovery standpoint, mentor, sponsor, all that stuff, but like, I needed that support to at home. Yeah. And, and I really received that. Well, I mean, you have your, your wife, your family. I'm curious some of your Laguna friends. Have you had to go back at all and make any, amends or any kind of clear the air after the fact?

Yes. I still talk to almost everybody from... Shout out to Dieter, by the way. Yeah, Dieter. Let's go, Dieter. I know, maybe I'm going to see him today. I'm not sure. He's around.

But no, I still talk to the majority of the cast. It's crazy. I'm not going to say who. Some of the cast have reached out about questioning there. That's what I was going to say, because that's when the fun part of the table turns when you start getting the outreach from the friends who were like, hey, what are you up to now? It's like, I think, I don't know if it's you or Zach yesterday talking about like the D.D

and stuff like that. Like the guy, like the, I remember the first time I did. They're like, the last person in the world we thought would be DD for us is you. 100%. But it's interesting. Yes, I made amends. I mean, I'll be making amends probably the rest of my life. I mean, and that's a part of the process.

It's part of the process. It's part of the journey. It's ownership and accountability and making things right where they need me be made right. But that's the healing process. That's the beautiful part to this. But no, I mean, it still remained close with a lot of the cast. And, I mean, like, those were true friendships. And again, those were some people obviously got to see the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Was there any period of time where those friendships maybe were completely lost because of your addictions? For sure. I'd say there was, I mean, I'd say almost a majority of them probably were definitely put on hold or put on the side because of, you know, I mean, the way, the trajectory that I was going, I mean, it was anybody that was any form of healthy state of mind would not have wanted to follow that. direction. And so it was, again, nothing was ever done intentionally. And I think it was this more of like, if anything, it was kind of more of just like Jason's going his way. We're going to go our way. But it's funny again, how it kind of went out. And it's all like crossed. I say that. Like you kind of disappear and it all comes back. It's like an egg, you know, and it's come full circle. But it's special. I mean, also from them, I mean, to just how many of them reached out, whether it was

for themselves to family members or friends and just how you can be that resource for them. How beautiful is that? Where maybe 10 years ago, they weren't calling you. Well, I think, like, the most beautiful part about this, like, outside of all that, like, I'm the youngest of four kids and we have a large family and stuff like that. But between my family, Ashley's family, you know, through my journey. And they did the work, but I've been able to help eight people get sober in our family, which is like. And the generational impact.

Because I even talk about, and Zach shared this last night, just so I know you probably have this all the time. People stop you and say, hey, you helped me get sober. that and that's what's the coolest thing man is like like we talked about all the way back when i was 18 1920 the gas station moment for me or you know you kind of had that overnight experience as well and like what people used to come up to you for and then like i remember seeing this shift probably like four years ago is when it really started to happen people are like dude you've impacted my life and like you made me motivated me to get sober i'm like dude like wow and that goes back to again like you ask me what was my you know what's my quote or a thing i live by i'm like my greatest deficits

that's have become my greatest assets. And, you know, like, again, because when you're in that stuff back then, you're like, dude, I don't even see a way out of this. No, never. And it's like, and because, again, as I think, look, I'm not saying in all situations, but I think specifically in recovery, I think sometimes some of the best experts in where I've learned the most are from the people with the lived experiences. Yes.

You know, I think it's important to have psychologists, doctors and stuff like that. But when I was going through what I went through, I need somebody that could relate to what I was going through. Yeah. And there was very few people that I could find that that was a similar situation through from a therapeutic standpoint, as opposed to just. interaction with another individual. That helps me a lot if I can just say is I get a lot of people coming to me like I'm an authority or doctor and that's that imposter syndrome a little bit but

you just explained it perfectly. I'm more relatable to some of these folks where in my head I'm like call the therapist, call the doctor. But you just crush that point because I think that's exactly what I've experienced man. It's relatability. It's connectivity and by expressing vulnerability it creates by expressing vulnerability it creates a sense of humility. Yeah. And it creates a sense of safety for people. And so I think, again, is, is experts are needed for sure. Don't get me wrong. But I think again, to some of those initial conversations to like normalize and like to have just like a human conversation. Yeah. I think you just also said something which is kind of what I wanted to ask you next, which is like everybody's got a story. Yeah. It's important. We may not all have the same story,

but we're all similar in a way. But like we talked about this last night, which is hitting rock bottom. And I want to just go into the rock bottom because I hit rock bottom. Did you hit rock bottom? Talk about 40 times 40 times So I almost like say to my I say to people so I don't wish that on anybody But part of me sometimes has felt like you almost need that but like rock bottom for a lot of people is death Yeah which I hate to be so morbid and hardcore but that's the reality I've been to AA I've gone to meetings a guy friendly smile and happy as fuck Gone three months later he's not a dinner yeah and that is like that's like crazy to feel and I'm like it's hard it's like really

Reconcile that you know But I think when it comes to the bottom piece is like that was something I would have advocated for years ago, right? I mean, that was something that was kind of taught to me is like people need to be in a place where they're motivated, willing, and vulnerable to make that shift. They got to hit their bottom to see that, you know, that spiritual awakening and see that change, which I don't think is the case this day and age. And so my perspective has changed so much on that because, again, is oftentimes people's bottom is death. And then there is no opportunity for hope. And so my whole thing is how can we help people stop digging, right? How can we bring that awareness?

No, and you talked about the spiritual awakening. You know, I've had that. And I've, you know, when I got my sponsor, went to 90 meetings and 90 days, big book steps, all the things. Like, I have no desire to drink. But it's still something that every day I need to continue to work at. And like, can you talk about your spiritual waking a little bit? You want to hear like the moment of clarity that I've had?

I mean, because that was kind of really where everything started. So to add to the story we were just talking about, you know, I've shared this. I mean, it was so profound. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was sitting in a therapy office with my mom and dad again. I mean, there wasn't like something that was different about this. This is the hundredth, thousandth time that we're in this room. I'll never forget seeing my dad, who's like the patriarch of our family, sit across from me and just look over.

And I've never seen him break down besides when his mom had passed away. And he just looked over and he's just like, Jason, you know, mom and I don't know what to do anymore. The family's at a complete loss. You know, our marriage is struggling. And I remember he just looked over and he said, mom and I are. like two planks of wood laying in bed waiting for the phone call, you're dead. And for whatever reason, man, as you heard me talk about that light that I had lost when I was a young kid, I felt like I was just, you know, my therapist was like you're like a bright light

that got dimmed when the OCD happened. And it was almost kind of like that light. And I feel like, God, I think was very present in that moment because I'm like, I don't care enough about myself to go get sober or to really go give this another effort. And that's the other thing, too, is I didn't even do it for myself. dude, my parents were my motivation. So I went yet again to another program. So it's like not only did I hit a bottom,

but I also didn't do it for myself. And that was the time that thing shifted. And that was my story. And that was July 23rd, 2010, where that moment took place and things really shifted in my life to receive that help. It's a beautiful thing, man.

Seriously, thank you for sharing that. I, yeah, it touches me big time. I relate to that a lot. You know, that the parents, you know, and how difficult that must have been for your family. And I saw my mom and dad, like, and it was also really hard, like, and got, they're in good shape and in good health. You know what I mean? But, I mean, all jokes aside, I remember looking at them.

And I was like, did you guys have aged like 10 years in the matter of two? Damn. And again, but like, that's the seriousness of codependency and the different things, too, is because I'm not saying that I didn't add, I did add a lot of that stress to that too. But I think also for those that are impacted, like, it can really crush you. And I mean, I saw the stress. And again, as I'm not saying that that stress wouldn't have been there, but I think having the appropriate tools and support back then would have helped them at least to a degree compared to what they had to suffer through

and what they went through. I really appreciate all the things you're sharing. It's really profound for me. I almost feel like the guests I have in here, it's kind of like a chance for me to get a little therapy too and get some perspective. You can look in the mirror and like the person you're seeing back. And I didn't used to like look in the mirror at all because my eyes just was a horrible feeling. Yeah.

But now I'm proud of what I look at. You should know you are too. It's just cool to see a male person in the public eye talk the way you do about your wife and your kids and how you show up for them and how you prioritize all that. Well, let me share something. I think I want to share one. And I really appreciate that. But like I've had a lot of cool experiences in life. Some of the most beautiful experiences that I've ever had had nothing to do with notoriety, TV, fame, money, any of the stuff.

It was like a few weeks ago. I mean, we were in my living room. me and my daughter and my son and my other son was ripping around crawling around and Ashley's kind of like singing and and and and and videotaping we had a pillow fight for 40 45 minutes I mean crying laugh I mean just like watching why it just him and his sister and like and I was like and I paused and I was like dude I have such like I mean almost could bring me to tears just because of how happy I was and just like so present and in the moment of that like I that's like for me that's where I want my life to be like that that's where I want my time to be and I'm like it doesn't

have to be some grandiose thing like the the opportunity to truly be in the moment and be present and to witness these things like man it's it's like the simplest things to me now like are some of the most beautiful moments like and I and I mean that all right I think we got to get to a little bit of a wrap up just got a couple last things thank you for being here man thank you appreciate it it's an honor just as soon as you stepped in the door last night I knew like the energy bring. I know when we've spoken before, it was just like we hit it off, but spending more time with you and learning about your story, it's really, it's just unbelievable, you know, that the perseverance, your resilience, your strength, your hope, I know people are really going to benefit from this.

I'm greatly benefiting. So selfishly, this has been awesome, but I hope, you know, I think our people are going to love watching this. Thank you. You know, we obviously talk about the concept of more life. What's giving you more life right now? The good Lord, man. The good Lord in my family is giving me more life right now. I love it. Thank you, Jason. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate you being here, brother. Appreciate it, man. It's great to spend time with you. Thank you guys for being here on More Life. Tune in next week for another amazing episode, but we're going to be coming live again from softbar here in Brooklyn. Thank you, Jason. Really just have been amazing to talk to you. Appreciate it. And shout out to your wife and your kids. Hi, kiddos. We love you guys. Love you guys.

Cheers. More Life is produced by Annie Siegel and executive produced by Adam Reynolds and Denham Pictures. This episode was directed by Annie Siegel, edited by Mike U.R.T. and recorded at Soft Bar Studios in Brooklyn, New York. More Life is a production of Sony Music Entertainment. From Sony, our executive producers are Chris Skinner and Joanna Clay. Original music by Function Adams. Set designed by Michael Ignacio. Publicity by Caitlin Healy.

Additional support from Abby Sharp. Special thanks to Allison Shano and Joanna Orland. New episodes drop every Tuesday. day. We'll see you next time. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify

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