More Life with Carl Radke - Mrs. Dow Jones on Financial Literacy, Money Shame, and Building Real Wealth

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

rl gets honest with financial expert Mrs. Dow Jones about exactly how much money his drinking and using actually cost him — a number he'd never really sat with until now. Haley Sacks — New York Times bestselling author of ‘Future Rich Person’ and host of the Financial Tea podcast — sits down with Carl to get real about money, without the shame. They break down how to build an emergency fund, why prenups are more romantic than people think, and what money really looks like behind the scenes of reality TV. Haley also gets into why financial literacy matters especially for women, and how to stop feeling stupid about the things you were never taught. It's a funny, refreshingly simple conversation about money, self-worth, and figuring your finances out — no matter how far behind you feel. Sponsors:  If you're looking for an easier way to get great meals on the table, give ButcherBox a try. Go to ButcherBox.com/RADKE to get $20 off your first box, plus your choice of free ribeye, New York strip, or filet mignon in every box for a year — with free shipping always.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, I'm Carl Radke and welcome to More Life. Today's show, we've got Haley Sacks. She's known as Mrs. Dahl Jones. She's a financial expert. She's the host of the Financial Tea podcast. But most importantly, she's in New York Times bestseller. Her new book, Future Rich Person is out. She's killing it. I'm excited to dive in today. We're coming live from Softbar here here in Greenpoint Brooklyn. Check us out. Haley Sachs, Mrs. Dow Jones, welcome to more life. So excited to be here. Great to be here with you. Thank you for coming in. All right. Let's just jump into it. Yeah, let's jump into it. The name of my podcast is called More Life. Yes. Since I've been sober now, more life is more about like taking advantage of your opportunities, living your life to the fullest, seize the day. Love that. I'm curious if you have a mantra that you live by. My mantra that I live by is don't cry over spilled milk if you didn't lose the cow. I feel like everybody just does the spilled milk part, not the. Yeah, and I think you might relate to this mantra too because it's this idea that like, and I feel like a lot with finances, people think of this too, that it's like, oh,

if I already like lost all this money or did this thing wrong or whatever that like I'm screwed and the rest of my life is over. But it's like no, you're the cow. Like it's like as long as you have yourself and like your mindset and like your ability to create more like you're fine. Like just start from today. You're the cow. Yeah, you're the cow. You're going to produce more milk. Yeah, you're going to produce more milk, baby.

About a little bit in your book. But why Mrs. Dow Jones the name? I know you said I do to the, to Wall Street. Is there a Mr. Dow Jones? There's not a Mr. Dow Jones. I don't think that like even if I get married, like I don't think there ever will be because I'm like I'm so obsessed with like my financial freedom and what that allows me. Before I had like my what I call in the book my financial aha moment. I think I really thought that it would be either like my dad taking care of my finances or like a man and that I couldn't do it.

And then when I did take control of my own finances, it just gave me such a feeling of power and like independence and made the world feel so much bigger. And so I don't know. I would never give that up. Like I think like even if I become a mom or any of those things, I'm still always going to want to work. I always want cash flow. I always want my own bank account. Like I just love having my own money. Remember reading a little bit in your book about that aha moment, if I'm guessing correctly, one of your first jobs, they had 401K.

Yes. And they had a meeting with you and you were like, what? Yes. As someone who's worked in corporate sales, I've had 401Ks before, I still, my financial literacy is a little bit lacking. I mean, I'm not dumb, but finances always were a little intimidating. Yeah. As a reminder, like back in when I was young in school, I actually struggled in math. And for whatever reason, it's intimidating.

It can kind of be scary. Excel spreadsheets scare the fuck out of me. Yeah. Were you always into math? No. Okay. So like that's what I'm curious. I was a comedian Carl.

Like I literally was like, no, could not have been into math. This is why I want to get into this because you weren't necessarily a math person or a finance person. Your dad was. I have a Wall Street father, as I say in the book, a WSF. I am guilty of that. Lock me up. Hey, at least you're honest about it. I am.

I'm like, okay. Do you get a lot of hate for having a Wall Street father? Mostly from him because he's like, why are you putting me out to dry? And I'm like, why don't you teach me anything? As someone who's on reality TV and puts it all out there, most financial people are very closed. Yeah, they don't. I actually had. You can't be in finance and go on a reality TV show, basically.

You cannot. And I had my dad on my podcast and I had to burn the episode because he was so Kagey. Like, I would ask him a question. He would ask it back to me. I'm like, that's not how an interview works, dad. I'd be like, so what do you do? What do you do? Yeah.

I was like, cool, it's the worst interview I've ever had. It was like three hours long. I like needed like big decompression after that. But you do talk to him without cameras or recording a conversation, obviously. So you do learn. No, I love him. And obviously, like, he's so smart and been so successful. But like he manages like very wealthy families money for them.

And so he's seen so many worst case scenarios of what happens if you like give children money or like all these things. And so I think because of that he was like really closed off. I was never. math or anything. I was a comedian. I just like in the beginnings of Mrs. Dow Jones. Yeah, the beginning of Mrs. Dow Jones was financially illiterate, felt like I was going to have to give my financial, hand it over to someone else because I wasn't capable because I was never taught, like what you're saying finances are intimidating. I think for women, it's even more intimidating. Like there's a lot of manipulation that can happen in a relationship. There's a lot of

crazy things that women can be kind of suppressed or things like that. I want to get into some of that story in your book, just because I think it's important for a lot of my listeners are women. Give them the power to take over their finances and understand what their money is doing and how to navigate that world. I think it's important. I have a bunch of stories in my book. They're all real stories. And the first step in any financial journey, Carl, is having an emergency fund. So it's basically like three to six months, a bare bone living expenses that you keep in a high yield savings. I had a call this morning with J.P. Morgan Chase. And I'm trying to set up a high yield savings account. Oh, I can do it for you like on the show. Because I'm actually having you on

today because this is for me. It's fine. I'm here to help. I need your help. Yeah, you don't, it's so easy to, you don't even need them. Like, we could do it in one step. So high yield savings account. So a regular savings account will maybe get you like 0.04% interest, but a high yield savings account will get you four to five percent and it's completely free to

open. So that's basically a hundred times more interest just by switching accounts. And it's, you can have access to it at any time. No, no penalty. You're pulling it out. It's like, there's nothing like. So you have these different buckets that you have like the emergency fund. You have the action fund.

We have action money. But so with the emergency fund, what is I'm going to say for the women in the audience is that there's stories in the book. And one of the stories is actually my friend, a lot of them are my followers, but this is actually my friend Elizabeth. And she was in a relationship in her 30s with like tall, handsome guy. They had a dog together. They lived together. But behind closed doors, he was horrible, like yelling at her, even like a little actually physically abusive, like whatever. But she felt stuck in it.

And she was able to leave the relationship because she had an emergency fund. And then she got what she calls in the book, her freedom apartment that I've been to in L.A. And it's like above a gas station or whatever. But it's like whatever, she left the relationship. That's all that matters. Because she's not like she, but it's like whatever she got out.

It's her own thing. Yeah. And same with Kim Kardashian. There's a story about her in the book because she was married when she was 19 to a really controlling guy. People don't know that. Yeah. People forget that.

Yeah. People forget. People forget Kroll. And he was controlling everything about her. And she couldn't leave that relationship either. But Chloe had one of those huge piggy banks Remember those that were like the Coke bottle? Yeah, and she had filled it up.

Those, if you fill it all the way up, actually yield a fair amount of money. No, it was like $6,000. She had been, you know, putting pennies in it since she was little. And she was like, okay, I guess it's time to cash in. And so she gave all that money to Kim and Kim was able to leave that relationship. So like for women, I think that money is so important because it gives you the power to say no, gives you the power to leave bad situations. It really gives you the power to like choose your own path.

I never wanted to be like a tampon commercial. Like I hate financial advice for women because I think it sort of panders to us and is like this girl mouth of it all where it's like, oh, we have to dumb it down for you. But in the same way, it's so important for women to have money. So it's like important to talk about it. If someone stops you in the street right now in Greenpoint and says what is a future rich person? What do you say? I would say a future rich person is someone who it's not about a dollar amount, but it's someone who's like in control of their future and is thinking about tomorrow more than today. That's really the biggest thing that you have to learn with money is like, okay, I'm not putting today first. Sure. But can I say as someone who prioritizes one day at a time? Yes. And just focusing on each day in front of me, not getting future tripped, not getting caught up in the past. Is there ways to kind of be, I mean, I, of course, can still look at tomorrow, but I really try to focus on the day in front of me and not get caught up.

It's automation would be huge. Yeah. Like, because it would be on the back burner that we could put money away for your future. but it wouldn't be something that you had to be so thoughtful every day about. You just never see it. It would be like an automatic withdrawal that goes to this other high yield. Or go to the... I heard you talk about this.

Yeah. I mean, I would not be a millionaire without automation. Like, I'm too forgetful. I'm like very plan. I'm like very plan. I'm very plan B. I'm very tight B, which I think surprised. Your type B?

Yeah. No, I, people are surprised by it. I mean, I'm type A in that I get a lot done and like I run a big business. But like at my core, I'm like, creative. and fun and messy. And like, I say in the book, like, I'm not a girl with a hair washing schedule. I'm not eating the rotissory chicken that I meal prepped on the incline walk. Like, you know, reading, like doing manifest, like, whatever it is.

Like, it's like, I'm having a pack of turkey from the bodega in between meetings. And it's like my makeup brushes. I don't know when I wash them last. And it's like, you know, I'm a little messy. And I like it that way. But that doesn't mean that I'm bad with my finances. And I think that even with you, like, you probably have limiting beliefs about yourself about finances like, oh, because I am this way, I can't do them. And it's like that's sort of part of

being future rich person and part of what I do is Mrs. Dow Jones is being like, whoever you are, you can do this. It's actually easy. It's seventh grade math, a little automation. You know, you take an hour every month to sort of look at it and you're good. You're going to be rich. Do you think people like hiring accountants or extra like financial support like that? Is that a worthwhile thing? Well, I think if it's someone like you or me who like we have our own businesses, you absolutely need an accountant because wealth preservation is such a big part. Like for rich people, that's like a huge game. And so how do I hide all my money? Yeah, you have to hide it all. Like they hate paying taxes. Of course. I hate paying the most amount of money I've ever spent my life.

I'm dead serious. Not on drugs. No, not on drugs. Taxes. Taxes. Yeah. I wrote a check to Uncle Sam last year. I didn't have a wedding, but I paid for a wedding. Wait, did you ever get refund for wedding? I missed it by 10 days. That sucks. So just anybody that thought I was like premeditating and planning this whole thing. no, I would have planned 10 days earlier to do that. That's how bad the relationship had gotten where we were at in that moment. But I still had to pay a little over six figures to make it right. Yeah, but just you didn't lose the cow. You didn't lose the cow.

It was an investment, though, is the way I look at it. Yeah, 100%. Since I've been knee-deep in marathon training, one thing I'm always thinking about is protein. I need a lot of it to keep up with the mileage and actually recover. And it's so much easier to hit that when I've already got high-quality options. ready to cook instead of scrambling to figure it out at the last minute and that's exactly why Butcher Box works for me it makes quality protein the easy choice when it's time to eat here's what they do butcher box delivers 100%

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on the table, give Butcher Box a try. Go to Butcher Box. dot com slash radkey to get $20 off your first box plus your choice of a free ribby, New York strip or filet mignon in every box for a year. Free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash radkey. Again, butcherbox.com slash radkey. Be sure to use our link so they know we sent you. So I think that like with accountants and stuff like I actually just switched accountants because and I'm paying more for my new accountant but he's saving me so much more money. So it will equal out. Bounce out.

And when you are a influencer, there's so many ways to write things off. And so I think I had a very like to the books accountant. But now I have someone who's more creative. And so I'm excited about that. I think I'm going to. I have someone that's been very by the book. Well, if I can just, I'm going to admit something I've never admitted before publicly. Okay.

A few of us on Summerhouse have worked with an accountant in the past, seasons one through four or five. We learned that this accountant was shady and actually was playing games. Now, we've made it all clear and right, but a few of us basically were completely fucked over by an accountant who said he was filing and never actually filed. We later learned also he was a sex offender, which is even more insane. Another friend of ours started using him for their business. She has a startup. And the startup was making a lot of cash.

It was fast growing. She had asked if we had an interesting accountant to maybe find ways to save some money for her startup. So we introduced her. She was having issues getting a hold of him and then having problems with communication. So she just had her team member do some digging. She's like, who is this guy? And she texts us like, did you know he was a sex offender?

I'm like, no. And then the house of cards went down from there. It was like, we couldn't get in a hold of him. He didn't file. There was no paperwork anywhere. It was a mess. And so anybody who's ever worked with an accountant, like, be careful. You have to be really careful.

There's a story that I always come back to about Rihanna. Yes, which I knew she had the amount of money that she was being taken for by her accountants, but the bitch better have my money song, which is a great song. Amazing song. I didn't know that that was in. response to... About her accountant stealing from her, but I think that's such a good example of, like, Rihanna definitely signs her own checks. Like, if you get screwed over financially, like, that's why I'm so adamant about having a money date. It's great to have a team, but unfortunately,

money is not something that you can ever fully outsource. And it doesn't matter what level that you're at, always have to have an eye on your bottom line. And I think for women, too, you do so much at home and, like, in the world, like, oh, you're taking care of kids, you're taking care of your parents, you're taking care of your spouse, you're doing your house, like all this shit that you have on your plate. And then if you have a spouse who's like, I'll do the money, great. One less thing for you to do. But that's actually the worst thing that you can do. You can never outsource your finances. You can have people who help you, but you need to understand what they're doing. And also, if you have any sort of financial professional who makes you feel stupid asking questions or who isn't

clear, fire them. Like, they work for you. They are not there for you to, like, to belittle you. Sure. Would you almost you bring up something that makes me think about just typical stereotype tradition of men and women at home, like husband-wife. It's like wife, dare I say, does dishes and cooks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then the man is finances cutting the grass or like, you know, obviously that world is very different now.

I'm curious if you can talk about a little bit, like the tradition of it. Like that's the expectation. Like I've been in relationships where like the girl expects, I just know the finances more. And a lot of times I'm like, I actually don't. You're like, just to be clear, babe, like, ooh. I mean, I have my shit together, but I'm not like a savvy person like you are. And I think as I'm navigating dating and that whole thing, it's like it's a good way to think about women actually can also handle their finances too.

It's not the expectation on the man. But also like, how old are you? I'm 41. So it's okay. I'm 34. We're both like out there dating, whatever. At this point, you're probably looking more for equity versus like a partner who you have to take care of. Totally.

Right? So it's like, you know, it's actually sex. sexy and cool if a woman can like teach you something and like is in control of her own bag like no one wants to drag someone up a hill like marriage is the you know you said no for marriage I feel like finances are one of the biggest issues within a marriage right oh it is I mean statistically like the data shows like that's like the reason people get divorced like the reason that they fight and actually it becomes microaggression so it's like we're in a relationship you maybe spend too much on something and then I don't have the words or like the whatever

the wherewithal to talk to you about it so then I start snoutes out of it so then I start at you for other reasons. Sure. And things deteriorate because we're not communicating. And so it like becomes this whole issue. I want to talk about you've done some of this on your Instagram and social with referencing reality TV things. Listen, reality TV talks a lot about money.

I mean, in my 10 years of being on Bravo, I know the juiciest stuff generally is like financial stuff. Yeah. And even when Kyle and Amanda and myself were building lover boy, they were always like, how much money did you invest? How much money's on the line? And when I was in sales, making my quota, how much you have to sell this month, Carl, in July, to not get fired? Like, there was always numbers, because the numbers really resonated with.

No, numbers are ever, because there's stakes. Yeah, no, they love data. There's, like, there's pressure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you talk about some of, like, what you've shared just on your, like, how you talk about those moments on reality TV and then how you explain them? Because I see recaps all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

If he gets divorced, what does that all mean? Yeah. You know. Totally. First of all, I think that it's such a gift to the culture that, like, okay, my podcast would call it financial tea. Like I'm all about the juicy juice. Like I want to know like what's going on behind closed doors.

And everyone else does too, right? Like we want to know people's finances. Yeah. And so I think that what's cool though and what I try to do with Mrs. Dow Jones is twist that from just like having that like juicy tea moment to then like having a lesson around it that then you can use to like reframe your own financial life. I love that. So it's like brownie with spinach in it, you know? Because we all love to watch Summerhouse to sort of turn our heads like our minds off. But then, you know, if you can take those narratives and actually use them to teach people, it's great.

So like with Kyle and Amanda, I did a lot about their pre-up and what was going to happen with... The business? Yeah, and his debt. Yes. Because... Is she liable for... Is she liable for the debt? And in many states, you are.

Got it. Which is why it's so important to get a pre-up. Even if you're going to share money, it's so important to know joining finance. That's why I like a pre-up. But not even because you're going to get a pre-up. divorce necessarily, but just because it's like a way of like being financially transparent. Like you can't hide anything in a pre-nup. I think, well, you said pre-nups are romantic.

Yeah, I think they're romantic. Which I think is very, really way, good, nice way to put it. I've always thought pre-nups are, they've been put through the blender of like pop culture and Kanye's, we want pre-nep. Yeah, we want pre-knit. Like, what is that even, like, people don't understand what it means. And I think the way you explain it. Like, it's actually like an adult thing to like actually have a conversation and map out,

what's yours, what's mine. Yeah. Maybe you have family money. Maybe there's businesses associated. Also, it's like, if you can. got married now, like same with me if I got married. Like, I want to own 100% of Mrs. Dow Jones. You want to own probably 100% of softbar. You might invest like the profits that you have into your family or like into a home with your person or whatever. But it's like if you guys break up,

you don't want them to be part of your, like you need your business, you know? And so like that, I don't know. You have to protect yourself. And also who you marry is not who you're divorce. And so you just want to make sure that you're protected. And like, yeah, I think that it should be something that's really normal. And it's not about screwing anyone over. Like my sister basically has a trad wife. She'll never listen to this. No offense. No offense to you. But like she's like she's like a doctor.

Shout out to your sister. Shout to my sister. Like she loves a show. We're going to send her this episode directly to her. If anyone is listening, but it's like she has, she's a lesbian. Her wife like takes care of the home like da-da-da-da carried my sister's egg. Like literally is like yeah. Shout out your sister's amazing. Her wife

doesn't have money and like should be a family money. But in their pre-nup, It protects her wife because her wife is out of the workforce. And so her earning power is going to be so down. If they got divorced and she had to go make a living, what do you mean make a living? She won't have been in the workforce for tens of years. And so it's going to, it's Olivia will have been in the workforce for, you know, this whole time. Wow.

And so it's actually like a powerful, beautiful thing. Like the pre-in-up, like, creates safety for her wife. Can you talk about, I want to get into like the shame around women and the finances and just like the guilt or shame of not maybe being as savvy or smart. Can you talk to the people that are listening about those feelings of like, I don't know how to work a spreadsheet really. I'm not versed in what a 401k is. I don't have a savings. Can you kind of maybe make us feel a little bit better for in that position? Well, first of all, like, I am you. I see you. Like, I feel you. But also, you have to remember that anyone who's rich or like you feel like knows about this. Can you explain there between

rich and wealthy? Let me finish this one. Sorry. No, no, I will do that in a second. But I just want to say like any person who is rich or wealthy, Carl, was born the same way that we were. not knowing anything. So this is just knowledge. And generational wealth, 90% of it disappears by the second generation, 70% of it disappears by the third generation because you can inherit money, but you don't inherit financial literacy. So it's something that everyone has to learn from scratch. So don't judge yourself because you're starting at the same exact place as every other person in the history of the world. This is good. You know? The difference between rich and wealthy, I mean, I think wealthy is like assets, like where you have money making money, whereas like rich just

feels like cash flow that you're sort of burning. Sure. You know? Yeah. And it's all about assets, baby. Would you say wealth is more important than rich? So much more important. I mean, but we all want to be future rich people, though, you know, read the book.

You talk about skip the latte. Well, I think you have to figure out what you value because you can have anything, because you can't have everything. You'll occasionally see on Instagram or TikTok that person who's like, if you stop drinking the $7 latte every morning, you'll save this amount of money. Of course you will. And like that is. But then you're miserable too because you're making folders at home.

Oh, yeah. Unless that is what you want in your cup. In which case, we celebrate you. Yeah. We love folders. If you want to sponsor us, like, Polgers is going to get mad of me now. Yeah.

Carl, don't ruin our folder sponsors. So why keep the latte in your routine? Like for me, I don't, that's not what brings me joy. So it's like, if I do the $8 drink, it's an, I'm not getting that much value out of it. But there's other things that I get so much value out of. Like, you know what I love doing? Seeing a healer. I love a healer, Carl.

I love to get craniosacral therapy. I got a girl Amanda coming to my house. She's doing witchcraft. I love it. That's what money. healer, I think of like some. Yep, that's who it is. Very like burning man.

Yep. Like a stick. Like a cacao ceremony. The whole thing. Actually, but they do house calls? She does house calls amazing. I got a table on Amazon.

So what does it look like when she comes in? Are you sitting down? Are you laying down? Laying down. On like a table? And she literally saved me during the book tour. But it's like this to me, the best I've ever spent. She brought me back to life.

Like for me, it's all like I want to coach. I want to invest in my human capital. Invest in yourself. Yeah, human capital till the day I die, like, that's how would I like spend my money on. So it's like, I don't really care about the latte, but like in the same way, if you love your latte, get your latte, girl, like enjoy that latte, have that cold full. But if that's what gets you going for your day or like your morning routine. But you can't have everything, though.

You can't do healer and latte and first class and haul from Zara every week. And like, you have to figure out you need to have action money left over at the end of every month. And so that's money after you subtract your expenses from your income that then you use to grow wealth. That is not money that should sit in your checking account, Carl. That's not money that should sit even in your savings account. You know, we're going to build up that savings account, but then we're moving on. We're going to put it in the market.

We're building assets that are going to compound. So that action money could be used, not necessarily, could be investing in something, investing yourself. But that also could be. It's really, it's where you're at on your financial journey. So like if you are starting from zero, your first step for the action money will be your emergency fund. Sure.

Once I get my emergency fund sets. Then it's your high industry debt. Then after that, we're putting it into your tax advantage. retirement accounts. You split up your budget into needs, wants, and action money. So needs is like my house, my utilities, my groceries, so do, but wants could be healer, could be cloud latte, could be, you know, whatever we want, could be YSL loafers, could be, you know, whatever floats your boat. That's your wants. You need to have that. Like being good with money doesn't mean depriving yourself of everything fun in life. That sucks. Why would anyone be good with money that? You know, you need

have your wants. Then we have 20% that goes to our action money. As long as long as you're, you have that amount, do whatever you want with the wants. I did this call this morning with the guy, J.P. Morgan, because I'm trying to get myself invested about $500,000 into soft bar. Amazing. Which is a lot of money for me. Like, I don't come from money. It's like money from anyone.

And I had worked really hard to kind of get myself to a place where I could invest in something like this. But prior to that, when I was drinking and using, like, my finances were a mess. Yeah. I was in credit card debt. I actually had my American Express, like, chasing after me for a little bit because I was behind. Yeah. But I was drinking and using a lot of cocaine. I did get sober.

I worked with a sponsor who then was like, quantify how much money you've spent on alcohol and cocaine in however many years, maybe eight or nine years in New York. And that number was around $700,000. And it's crazy to admit that, but it actually was a huge fuel for me and a reminder. If I don't do drugs and take care of my life and don't drink and stay sober, then all that money that I could actually invest it in other ways that are actually healthy and fulfilling and meaningful for me, which was a really cool exercise in early sobriety that I was uncomfortable by the nose. I had to like back of the napkin math.

I mean, it's probably more money that I spent, truthfully. But the quantification I came up with is around 700 grand. I love that idea that it's like where you put your money, right? Like being thoughtful with your money. Like, and it's like you can use it to like grow your future self and like live a life that you're really excited about. Like I'm sure you come here and you're, you know, there's a lot to do and you're stressed, but you're also like, this is sick.

It's very fulfilling. It feels very aligned. Yeah. It's like exactly who you are. And like it's beautiful what you've made and like people love it. Like it's like, you know. Well, it's a true investment that, you know, I was comfortable with the notion of I may never get this money back. And that's kind of part of some of the investment world is you've got to be kind of comfortable with that.

But it's interesting. Like now that I'm sitting here, like I realized in the last year, like I have this business. I've got all these things happening. But I still as an individual don't have some of my finances really dialed in the way I think they should be at 41 years old. But that's a judgment. Like it's like I talked to someone who was 58 and her husband died and she had been with her husband since she was young. and it was the first time that she was taking control of her finances. And now she's like so in control and so happy.

And it's like your aha money moment can happen at any time. It just has to happen. Like it doesn't, we need to stop judging ourselves and like putting these like false timelines. Like yes, the best time to invest was yesterday. Like if you were in your 20s and you hadn't been like snorting lines and put that money in the market,

you'd be billionaire, you'd be a millionaire, whatever. The amount of repeating idea of all the things I could have bought. But you can't live like that. You cannot live like that. And it's also like you wouldn't be who you are. and have helped so many people and like you are here now

and who's to say that you're not going to make all that back? You know, like to me, there's a floor to how much you can cut, which is why I really hate the deprivation stuff with finances. Of course, you can't outspend a bad budget. But like, you know, keep it within reason. But there's no ceiling to how much you can make.

Yeah. I want to talk about something I have written down, which actually reminded me of Beverly Hills, Housewives. Do you watch? Of course. You see these beautiful women. They've incredible lifestyles. Of course, like being on this show

where it paints a picture of this. lavish luxury. It almost felt like they're almost like playing into it and like having to subscribe to like that life. And like the Chanel, the Gucci, all the expensive stuff. Well, there's a big difference between looking rich and being rich. And I think especially with social media that gets really conflated. And, you know, right now we're in this age of frictionless finance. So people can just use Apple Pay like Applebee Pay in. And not only that, you're seeing all these. Carl's my biggest fan. I did look up your history. You worked at SNL and I'm obsessed with SNL.

So you clearly are very, very funny. That was one of the funnier things I've ever heard. Apple be paying. Wow, I can leave now. Okay, my week is over. I just started. Well, like, why is it a trap? So first of all, I want to say, that what's a nice about summer house?

I mean, obviously you guys always look great, but like it's not like you're seeing the girl, like any of you be so, like the real housewives are on a different level. Like, they are, the burkin of it all is just like a different, not to say that you guys aren't wearing designers. No, we wear nice stuff. I mean, I'd wear nice things too. 100%. So you're seeing all these influencers or reality TV stars and you aspire to their lives. And a way to feel like maybe you're getting closer to that is just to appropriate what they're wearing or like how they're spending.

But it's so dangerous. Yeah, because I mean, I feel like the housewives, it feels like this happens a lot. All the time. They play a character almost. House of cards. Yeah. Yeah, and it's all fake. But, you know, I always thought maybe it was fake.

Like, she was buying it like T-Moo version. And it's actually- Well, there was another housewife who was buying some of the nice branded and then returning. Wearing it on an episode and then returning it. Which as she should. I mean, you play chess, not checkers, Carl. Well, something I think about now in recovery, you know,

it's been five and a half years since I've drank or put anything up my nose, which is very good for me. There's an element of, like, shopping and... Did you ever feel compulsive towards that? Sometimes. Yeah. Like, it's an easy road. I get a rush.

I love shopping on, there's a company called Mr. Porter. I know. Oh, and they deliver it to you? They deliver the same day. And I know someone that works there. She's a friend of mine and she, I get a discount. I do get a. How much?

20 to 30 percent. Not on everything, but sometimes. Wait. So I'll wait for certain times of the year where they do big sales. But it's also hard. Like you have to look good. Like for like for being in the public eye. Like that's something I struggle with too because it's like, like, okay,

Susie Orman, who everyone knows is like a financial guru, wore the same blazer, one blazer, her whole career. And it's like, but I want to be fabulous. To me, part of being Mrs. Dow Jones is making it aspirational to be good with money. Like, it's never felt aspirational to like max out your Roth IRA or say no to a bachelor party or like know what a 401K is. And so I want to make that feel cool. And I don't know, fashion always feels like part of it.

But you see like some maybe more traditional finance people who like weigh the same khakis and blazer and like that's how they are so rich is they don't. They just don't care about those little things. I know. But our generation, obviously, labels, brands, how we identify or present ourselves is really important. And a lot of times with brands or companies, like an obvious thing. Yeah. But like they don't care about it because that's not what it was back then.

It's just interesting. It's so true. And even like when my dad is successful and it's like he's so like where's Hokka's drives a Jeep, like it's like so like just like low key. Like he's not. He doesn't have like a big fat watch. Well, you see those memes. It's like the really wealthy person who's wearing just basic ass stuff. who's got $10 million in his checking account.

And then the rich guy who's got the Rolex on. When you're at the airport and you see the person with like 10 pieces of Louvaton luggage and they're sitting in the back of the plane. I'm always like economy, huh? Okay. Yeah. Good choice. Seems like you really used your money, right.

But like the dopamine hit from like shopping. Do you get it from food at all? Yeah. I love to bitch. Double down. DoorDash, Uber Eats. Amen food. Yeah.

Like you're, I'm like shopping and I'm like hungry. Yeah. And then you're like, ooh, like how. Like how many-todys tonight. But I get a hit off of like Mr. Porter shopping. Oh, for sure. But you know what I think is important? Returning.

I do return. Yeah, because you can't like. I mean, I don't wear it. I can't return Coke, Carl, you know, but it's like what you- I've thought about it. Yeah. It's like, but if you buy too much clothing and you have that impulsive moment, send it back. I mean, this weekend, they know, my team is here and they see it all.

And I was like, I'm not perfect. I always say this all the time, but I was going to Bermuda. And I ordered so much shit to go to Burmude. And I returned 95% of it. Did you feel guilty? No, I didn't wear it and return it. I ordered it impulsively because I was like, oh, I need to prepare for the trip. I want to acute on the trip.

And then it's like, what did I do? Like, no, like that's not like how I actually want to spend that money. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I just think that it's like when things can be fixed, when there's an easy fix, that's not something to stress about. So obviously, don't be a compulsive shop or that's not great. And like if you can regulate your emotion, like, okay, in the book,

I have a five-step money mindset program called, Abiza. So you come to Abiza with me, Carl. And the first step is to identify. The second step is to blame. The third step is to. Z. Oh, well, Z is judge. Abiza. I, B. I. Oh, so interrupt is the moment. So it's like when you're in that moment with Mr. Porter and you're in that like hole and your card is full and you're thinking about this ideal version of Carl and who he could be and wow, all these outfits and that event and this thing and I'm going to look amazing. And then you have that moment of interrupting where you maybe can take a step back. Same thing with any sort of addiction. You know this well. And you're able to pause for a second and maybe like not do it. Oh, I've done that a lot.

I'll fill up a cart. And then I'm like, I don't need all this stuff. Yeah. Like I'll look at my closet and like, no, I could repurpose something. Exactly. But I always have that little moment. But then sometimes I'll be like, fuck it. Sometimes you say fucking. And that's okay. Like we're human. But also it's like with that, it's so harmless to say fuck it because you can return it. I think some people have shame or guilt around spending. But that keeps you stuck. Like the more like, that you talk yourself down, the less that you're going to be that cow that can have all that you see milk, Carl. Like, you know, you're just going to be dry. Like, you have to believe in yourself and also you have to invest in your human capital. That's the biggest thing. Like,

people don't realize that. Like, if you really want to get rich, invest in your skills. Like, my friend here, my friend is here. She's your super fan, Ali. We love Ali. We love Ali. She, big Ali fan here. Big Ali fan here. Big Ali fan. And Ali is a very successful interior designer. She started her own company. But when I met Ali, or I met her in college, but when she was starting out, She was like working at Shinola, like wanted to pivot to be an interior designer and then went, took courses to learn how to use CAD, which is the program that you have to use to like, you know it. I'm sure to plan out how to like create a space. Yeah, like design a space. Yes. And so she invest in her human capital, gain that skill. She's gained so many more skills since then. But it's like a great example of like, great, you want to change your life. You want to make more money. You want to do the thing that you always want to do. Get the skills that are going to take you there. It sounds so simple.

Well, it is, but we make it complicated. Yeah. Something I was just thinking about while you're talking, and this is separate, but like, shame and guilt around the amount of money I spent on drinking. Yeah. How do you forgive that? Because I would be hung over and then pull up my bank account and see, I was bad. I'm not kidding.

When I come on your podcast, I would have a $3,000 bar tab at a club. Generous King. And I didn't have anything to show for it. No, didn't meet a girl. Didn't have any, like, great story. Just like, that was like a nice. I would be so upset and frustrated. Sometimes I might be like, all right, I'm not going to eat for a couple of days.

Like, it would like shame and guilt myself. You punish yourself for it. Do you? But you had, like, that's like you, okay, your drinking was like a mental health thing. Like you were trying to like. Totally. But I'm wondering if you get, if you have anybody who watches your content or listens to your stuff who comes from maybe that place of like. A hundred percent.

I mean, that's everyone. They've rebuilt themselves. They're sober now. But some of those like feelings about how they spend money. Like I'll, I get nervous. I'll get sweaty sometimes spending money because it reminds me of like, oh, shit, I'm spending like two grand here. And you're like, you remember those moments. I'll remember sometimes in the past like, oh, that two grand at a club or speaking of a visa.

Yeah. I spent $15,000 in a visa on party. Wow. For a seven-day bachelor party. Wow. Sounds awesome. Just kidding. We had a good time, but.

No, that's crazy. But crazy amount of, I was just, I was the bottle. You were just, you were reckless. Very reckless. I was the bottle service guy buying tables. and doing the VIP stuff. Wow. But that, yeah, it almost ruined me financially.

I mean, I had many bad bar club tabs, but the guilt and the shame that I would feel as a result of that was debilitating. And then it would be like, I have a problem with drinking. I have no money now. Like, it was all, it was all, it really fueled a big part of that shame and guilt,

which I think some people maybe don't talk about always. Like when I go to AA or meetings, finances aren't always discussed, but I think are huge, as you explained, a huge root of. No, I really appreciate you saying that because, like, I know, I think that financial wellness needs to be looked at the same way as we look at, like, physical or emotional wellness. Yes.

And everyone has a therapist for their emotions or, like, a trainer or whatever, like, a thing that we let, someone's teaching us how to do the physical workout, but no one has anyone to talk about the money stuff with. And it's like, you go to your therapist. You're talking about, like, oh, my ex got a new haircut. And it's really, like, what does it mean? I think they're seeing someone new. Like, why would they have gotten bang?

if not, like, and that's 45 minutes. And it's like, cool, what about the fact that you did spend 15K in a visa? You're not going to bring it up to the therapist. I would never talk about it. Exactly. It was almost more embarrassing to admit 15 grand than to talk about, oh, I did cocaine all night and had. Because you sort of think, oh, that's cool.

Like, I'm a bad boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, look at me. But it's not cool spending 15 grand at a club. Like, that's embarrassing. Yeah, it's, but I never talked about it until I got sober. But first of all, I think it's amazing that you're talking about it now. And you might always carry a little bit of like shame towards it.

But I think maybe reframing it in your mind when you do have that shame to be like so proud of yourself for how far you've come. And I always say, and I say it's in the book too. Like think about like three things that you did that were right this week financially. Like, okay, maybe that's old Carl, but it's like life's a journey. Like whoever you are right in this moment, like I'm completely different than I was five years ago, even two years ago, one year ago, like who you are, you're meeting this moment now. And so, like, what are things that you're doing right now that are, that old Carl wouldn't have never have done?

Yeah. You know, like, oh, did you had a call this morning with J.P. Morgan, Jays. Old Carl didn't even know that was a bank. Old Carl didn't have that number. J.P. Morgan was probably a drug dealer, I thought. Yeah, J.P. Morgan was in your phone, like, to try and, like, get some, like, late night, whatever. Like, you know, you wanted nose candy from that guy, you know? But it's like, it's like, now look at how far you come.

You're almost making me think that I should bring, because I have a running coach. Got a money coach. I have a sponsor for my sobriety. I have different people in my life that support me in different ways. Maybe I am your coach. I think so. I think so. I'm going to do a hotline for you. I have so much potential. I would love to. I have so much potential with my financial capacity. You've so much earning potential because you're such a huge platform. You're like so, like you could get like you're, and we all know like the brand deals are freaking lucrative. Yeah. Like there's so much money to be made when you're in the media. You're burned into the culture. You've been on this like beyond hit show for 11 years, you're the only one left who is like on those early seasons. Like it's like there's

so much out there for you. Well, it's been a roller coaster. And I, the goal I have is to be on summer summer house long enough that I could buy a summer house with the money. I love that. That's the goal. I love that. How is that you bought a house in Greenpoint or like a bar. I like the dream. The dream, that's sick. I think you can definitely do it. That's like the goal in the dream. I love it. So we manifest here on more life. So manifesting does work. Want to get into some of the dating. Yeah. I love this. I guess are there financial rules that you would say with dating? The guy pays on the first date. Yeah, and I think that the guy pays for a lot.

Like, in terms of like, like, like dinners and stuff, like, I think it feels good for, like, I like, like, like, like, like being in my feminine and, like, when there's, like, big things to split or whatever, like, obviously it's equal. But I think that, like, it's nice for the guy to pay for things and, like, to, then, but you have to be conscious of it. Like, you're getting the Uber, you're getting the Beagles or whatever. And, like, you're taking care of each other. but I do think that it like is chivalrous for.

I've always felt that way, but you know, we live in a more modern age where. But I believe in feminism and all that stuff. But I also think that women are like, it's hard for us to be in our feminine in relationships when there is so much equality almost in that way. Like I want equity more than equality, you know, where things are, they're fair, but maybe they're not equal. Like if we're dating and I made $2 million and you made $50,000, we wouldn't split the rent half and half, you know?

Sure. things like that yeah i just i mean i've definitely encountered do you have a lot of girls who are gold digging you carl uh great question yes no because i'm not rich but i feel like there's a lot of girls in york city who are solving for a rich man i think that's like my other sisters that's a theme i mean last summer there was a song that went viral six five blue eyes finance yeah and you're like six five hazel eyes hazel eyes soft bar don't work with finance but yeah no there is an element of like i think the perception that someone in tv or in the public eye is very wealthy or has it all Yeah.

And I mean, I, of course. Can you feel that, though? Have you felt financially disrespected in relationships? Like, and what do you look for now in a woman financially? Well, I'll give you exactly. Like my previous relationship, I mean, Lindsay was incredibly sound with her finances and really organized and really detailed. I learned from her in some ways.

But at some point in our relationship, me not fully understanding everything created tension between us. Yeah. Because the expectation was like, I should also understand this world, not just her. But I also think that in that moment, she should have explained it to. you. She would a little bit, but I think over time, just that, like, who took care of the finances in the relationship became a talking point, which, yeah. Well, I think it's something you have to do together, but you also have to manage on your own. Yeah. How early on in, like, a relationship,

do you talk about some of this? It's like, it's one of the most important things in a relationship, but it's like the awkward thing. It's almost like when you go on a date and I talk about sobriety. Yeah, well, you want to talk about it in the first date, for sure. For sure. But at what level am I going into? I don't want a trauma dump. Yeah, exactly. I don't want to completely. Yeah. on load, but then. No, definitely. It's not a first date thing. But like for me, it's sort of weird because I do make a lot of money.

So it's like even if I date someone who makes money, I probably are making more than them. But my finances are complicated because so much of it is caught up in the business. So it's not as though I like, I don't even look at it as like having a salary as much as I look at it as my revenue per year. And then I have to watch my spending, of course. Carl, this is all the thing. What's one of your biggest spendy things?

You can be honest for it. I actually call it the spendies. The spendies. The spendies. The spendies. If you have the spendies a little. But you know, hopefully you can return. that you.

Yeah, I mean, not a porter. We'll get a girl. Nothing wrong like not a porter. Yeah, we love them and we want to be sponsored, but it's like I love fashion. So I think that's... To clothes or things like that. Yeah, clothes and healers. You know what Dorinda says?

What? Dorenda's a dear. Buy that bag, buy that really cool vintage or whatever. But those are pieces that you will hold... She has amazing clothes, by the way. She invests in really beautiful pieces. And I actually kind of subscribe to this mentality. For me, it might be a nice watch.

Yeah, like I bought this with my book deal. But that's something you can pass down. I am curious. Are weddings worth the money? I love celebration and I love more life, Carl. Yes, see? More of life, you know? You're learning fast, Haley.

Yes, I really am. I'm a quick learner. But I think that it depends on where you're at financially. Like, you know, if you... I think a lot of couples maybe aren't in a great financial place when they're making that next step. No, and like most weddings are 30K. By your 30th anniversary, that's like 700K,000. 30K?

I mean, this is on average call. Yours, obviously, was going to be a big to do. Yeah, but that 30K sounds really nice right now. 30K seems pretty nice. You're like, oh, okay, well, where do you get married? I would like to sign up for that. But, you know, so I think that it's all within reason. It's like, this is my issue with financial rules.

I think financial rules are great when it comes to, like, learning what a 401k is and how to set up your financial life and all of that. But, like, I don't believe in telling you what's right or wrong. Because it's like, if you really want to have a wedding, and that's like the dream of your life. Then like, yeah, go for it. But then it's like, you're not going to be able to do other things. So it's everything is a given take.

Sure. You read those couples who are like, oh, we didn't have the big wedding, but we bought our first house instead. And, you know, those stories kind of resonate because you're like, oh, wow, that actually makes a lot of sense. But then. But I also think like a courthouse wedding where you have like a chic lunch after is like one of the most sophisticated, elegant moments of your life.

Like, romanticize that. You know what I mean? Like those gorgeous pictures, your outside city hall, like, you go to the ODON or something after. Like, it's like, that's like, that's. Like the JFK Jr.? Yeah, you do a JFK Jr vibe, you know? Maybe you're just going on the tour. Then after you go to his house, you take pictures.

You do the whole thing. That's the perfect wedding. So you get married, you go to Odea, and then you go to JFK's house. You guys are listening to this. That's the perfect wedding. You heard it here for Mrs. Dowell Jones. That's ideal. That's how you save money.

I have another quick fire question about dating and relationship stuff. What's the biggest money red flag in a relationship? When someone's not generous, like the moment that they make you feel like weird. about money, that's the red flag. Like, where they, you know. How do you tip? At least 20%. And I feel like when I'm dating someone and they're seeing me tip, it's always, like,

even if I was going to do, like, the Uber thing pops up and they're like, how it's you want to tip, it's like, usually if you weren't here 15. Oh, he's here 20. Look at me, baby. Like, oh, I love everyone, you know? To me, if I saw someone tip poorly, that would be a red flag. Oh, for sure. Tipping is mean to wait, staff, horrible, like, you know, all those.

but I think also just anyone that makes you, like, even if you're not, like, okay, I believe in having separate bank accounts and then having a shared bank account for like shared expenses. But I think that like you're obviously going to still spend money on each other. And like that should just be like from a place of generosity. Like, and I do that with my friends too. And I talk about that in the book. I have a whole chapter on money etiquette. So I think that how you move with money is really important too. And like being generous even with your friends.

Like if you have a friend who's maybe not doing so well or they have a startup or something like that, like it's like don't be like, want to go to this omacase? Like, no, be like, want to go to Chinatown to get dumplings or want to come over, I'll make you dinner? Like, it's like, you have to think about where people are coming from. Totally. But I think that being generous, if you can be, is really awesome. I think the friend dynamic is super interesting.

It's something I have had a face on Summerhouse before with Kyle and just like we've, you know, investing or not investing or whatever it is. And I think between friends, like it can be a little tricky. So tricky. Whether it's loaning a friend, I've loaned some friends money. Well, that's a bad idea, Carl. You know, you should never loan money that you expect to get back. But what's interesting is I've gotten paid back.

With interest? No. Not there. No interest. But I mean, it's amazing you got paid back. But I guess what I'm asking or curious is like passing money between friends. No. Or if you do, don't expect to get it back.

Yeah. I would never loan money to a friend expecting to get it back. Like, I think it's amazing that you did get it back and then you paid it back. But like in your head, you should be comfortable with the notion that if I'm going to give this to a friend. Yeah. I may not get this back. Yeah, yeah. But then if it does come back, then it's a win.

It's a win. Yeah. And I think that having boundaries is really important. And I also think that it's like so many people take care of their parents. So actually I see this with people who follow me who are first generation because in many cultures, like there's some cultures where you're supposed to give your first paycheck to your family. Like it's like that's like the cultural thing to do where it's like you are supposed to take care of them. And that's such a huge financial burden.

And then what happens is that many people deprioritize their own retirements to prioritize taking care of their parents who don't have retirements. and then it becomes this generational wealth cycle, then you have kids and you have no retirement, so they have to do it for you. And so you have to have boundaries so you break that cycle. And there's also a lot of federal programs that can help you with parents.

And like, you know, it sounds really sad to put like a senior citizen on a budget, but you can do it. Like it's like, you know, you got to tell them a little less. Well, I think the money between friends is super interesting because it's definitely been something. And money with parents and family is really hard too.

For sure. I would say the number one thing with all of this is putting your oxygen mask on first. first. Yes. Yes. I save it on every interview here. There we go. It's one of my favorite things. You're no good to anybody if you can't breathe. Yeah, you got to be able to breathe. That's why you put it on yourself first so you can then assist other people. I love that. We're both flight attendants. Yes. I talk about the oxygen mask all the time. I want to keep talking to you. I know. We're coming on pod. I'm going to come on yours. And we're going to do money coaching.

Yes. I need a little bit of money coaching. I need a little bit of. Kai's do a question before I go. Yeah, of course. With the JP Morgan person that you're talking to, Did they make you feel stupid? Not at all. That's good. Not at all. You always make sure that who you have in your corner is someone that, like, empowers you and explains things to you. He actually over explained, which was good because I act like I know and I don't.

Yeah. But then I do need that level of explanation. Yeah. Because I'm a guy. I'll be like, oh, I know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

It's more embarrassing to be like, I don't know versus like, oh, I know. And just get along with it. Yeah. Which is kind of a messed up thing to do. It's okay. But. You have a lot of self-awareness. I think that's the best thing.

thing. Very software. Yeah, so good. I want to keep talking, but we've got to come to an end here. I know. We ask this of all my guests who come on. Okay. What is giving you more life right now? What's giving me more life right now is that I just did something really hard and I achieved it. And it made me grow so much as a person, like writing the book and then getting on the bestseller list. It's honestly incredible. Yeah. It was a hardest thing that I've done. And who I was when I started that goal versus now is so different. I think it's like such a testament to like doing hard things and like asking things of yourself and like doing it when even when you don't want to and like all those. So that's giving me more life because I'm like what am I going to do next? Like it gave me a lot of self-esteem and I'm like,

great. Like where do I want to take this? And that's exciting. Well, the book just came out. So I mean, I would imagine you maybe have another book can you? Carl, I don't say that yet. Okay. I do think so. So relish in the moment here. Your bestseller list. I'm not sure the moment, but it's like I think definitely I will write. another book, but it is, I mean, you wrote a book. It's a labor of love. And the way that I did it was not at all responsible. Like, I basically just used every weekend in like a very antisocial way. And so I'm like, I don't know. Like, I would have to figure out how to do it with more balance. Sure. This has been probably one of the most interesting interviews I've had. But I love the energy.

I brought like a lot of like crazy. No, you're great. How can people that may not be familiar with Mrs. Dow Jones. I saw your website. You have a really, really beautiful website. But where can people maybe access you? Mrs. Dow Jones.com. The book is called Future Rich Person. And My podcast is called Financial Tea, Carl. And this was so fun. Thank you. And thank you for my cocktail. Soft cocktail.

Soft cocktail. That's what we do here. I feel really good. You should because we use the highest quality ingredients. You do. And I love soft bar. All right, print that. That's how we're going to end this episode.

Haley Sachs, Mrs. Dow Jones. Thank you for being here today on More Life. Appreciate you being here. We love you. We'll check you guys out again soon here at SoftBarr in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Thanks. Thank you guys for joining us on More Life. watch or listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

And please like, review, subscribe. It really helps us out. More Life is produced by Annie Siegel and executive produced by Adam Reynolds of Denham Pictures. This episode was directed by Annie Siegel, edited by Mikey Ortiz, and recorded at Soft Bar Studios in Brooklyn, New York. More Life is a production of Sony Music Entertainment.

From Sony, our executive producers are Chris Skinner and Joanna Clay. Original music by Function Adams. Sound mixing by Ian Sorrentino. Set designed by Michael Ignacio. Publicity by Caitlin Healy. Additional support from Abby Sharp. And a special thanks to Alison Shano and Joanna Orland. New episodes drop every Tuesday.

We'll see you next time.