More Life with Carl Radke - Spencer Matthews on Being a Reality TV Villain & Grieving His Brother

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Spencer Matthews knows exactly what it’s like to build a career playing the villain on reality TV. A founding cast member of Made in Chelsea, the UK’s answer to The Hills, Spencer sits down with Carl to trade behind-the-scenes stories about reality TV, including how he developed an alter ego for the show, why he eventually walked away, and what it was like watching his on-screen persona follow him long after he left. The reality star turned entrepreneur and host of the running podcast Untapped also opens up about his complicated relationship with alcohol, the period when he got sober, and how a non-alcoholic gin and tonic at a family party ultimately inspired him to launch CleanCo. Spencer also shares the story of losing his older brother Michael, who died climbing Mount Everest when Spencer was just 10. Years later, he returned to the mountain for Finding Michael, retracing his brother’s final climb and searching for his body. He and Carl connect over losing their brothers and the different ways grief can shape your life. This is a conversation about reality TV, identity, fame, grief, alcohol, and finding a life that feels like your own. Episode Sponsors:  Momentous: If you want to try Momentous Signature Spec Creatine, head to livemomentous.com and use code LIFE for up to 35% off your entire first order.  Grow Therapy: See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com/RADKE. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. ZipRecruiter: Try ZipRecruiter to post your job FOR FREE at http://ziprecruiter.com/RADKE . 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Casper: Right now, save up to 20% on mattresses and up to 25% on everything else when you go to Casper.com. #sponsored #ad  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. What a great episode we have for you lined up. Mark, what are you doing on the latest take? It's a pack show. We have reviews of Heart of the Beast, Brad Pitt and a Dog, her private hell, the new film from Nick Winding Refen, a boorman and the devil, a documentary about the worst film ever made,

and sense and sensibility with our super special guest. Gorgeous George Bukai, don't miss a single second of the latest take. Hey, guys, I'm Carl Radke, and welcome to More Life. Today on the show, we've got Spencer Matthews. He's a UK reality star. He's an endurance athlete. He's a non-alcoholic spirits, entrepreneur and founder. And he's also the host of the Untapped Podcast.

I'm excited to dive into this chat. We're coming live today from Softbar here in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. He's here. Spencer Matthews, welcome to More Life. Carl, how are you getting on, my friend? Welcome to Brooklyn. Yeah, I live in London. You live in London full time.

But you're just here for the BCB. Yeah, yeah. Anything else going on? At the moment, we are here, for Cleanco. We're here for Clean Co. You're launching the new SCUE. Launching. I nearly said launching. Launching. Launching the new RTDs.

So they're ready to drink. Can you do this whole interview in that voice? I could do. That would be ideal. But I won't. Yeah, so we're launching ready to drink canned cocktails. And we were delighted to come and check out what you've built. It's really cool. Thank you.

Well, I love working with great brands. We love working with founders that have a story. I think Spencer and I have a lot more in common than you I think you guys might realize I mean reality TV backgrounds Maybe he's the bad boys villains at times perhaps But now turning their life into you know health and wellness Building a brand you know really standing for for something which is really cool and I applaud you I want to talk about a lot of this stuff but before we get started I do this with every guest I have on The name of this podcast is called More Life we got it on the mic flags

It's a saying that I live by and it's kind of a mantra and a lot of people have kind of a daily thing they say out loud. I'm curious, do you have something that you, like Spencer Matthews is known for, like a saying. Like more life for me is really like live your life to the fullest, take advantage of your opportunities. I'm one day at a time. You know, I'm five and a half of you're sober now. Wow, congrats. Yeah, thank you. But more life is like, you know, I got energy. I want to live life. And that's what sobriety has given me is a new lease on life. So I'm curious for you if there's anything you. Yeah, I mean, I don't have like a saying, I suppose, that I live by, but similar to you.

You know, I'm not a one day at a time kind of guy. I'm a big energy person. I'm a big believer in human potential. You know, I think that we are all capable of extraordinary things, right? And I'm kind of obsessed with that idea of pushing boundaries and, you know, exploring limits. I'm sure we'll talk about my podcast, but it's called it's called untapped, you know, and it's all about the idea of untapping potential. And it started off as a quest to find interesting.

individuals who've really pushed their potential, who've perhaps lived up to what some people would consider full potential. And now it's more of just a running show, like with a leading running show in the UK now. Well, if it's running, I got to get myself on there. Let's go. Cleanco, you know, which we're here in Brooklyn about, it was founded because I, you know, I had a shocking relationship with alcohol, as I think we can. How long have you been sober now? I'm not sober. You're not sober. No, I'm not sober. I was sober for kind of three. years a little while ago now, I enjoy a balanced relationship with alcohol. I can kind of see myself being completely sober. Yeah. It's no longer, it no longer feels like an issue. It really

was almost daily abuse. Sure. You know, for a long time, it was beginning to have a really detrimental effect on my health, on my life, on my relationships. And it needed addressing in a pretty substantial and serious way. And, you know, action needed to be taken. And I took that. And I think in that period of total abstinence, I learned so much. You know, I became a lot more driven. I became a lot more athletic. I became a lot more focused and grew a family in that time. How would you like, if you're meeting someone at a party for the first time or at a social gathering and they don't know who you are,

how would you kind of introduce yourself or explain who you are or what you do? Oh, I wouldn't say much. Like in New York City, when you meet people, it's like the first thing is like, what do you do? Oh, yeah. Oh, I, it's interesting because in New York, you kind of size people up based on their career or what neighborhood they live in. I always find it funny when people have this kind of endless list of things that they do. But it's kind of...

The jack of all trade. In kind of British press, like if somebody was writing an article about me, they'd call me an entrepreneur slash kind of endurance athlete slash podcaster, I suppose, slash TV personality. You know, there's a few strings to the boat. It kind of depends on... why I'm at in a particular place. Can we talk about some of the TV, your TV history and kind of when that began and kind of going back to when people maybe first were introduced to you on TV?

Sure. So how old you were at that point? Yeah. So in my early 20s, I was a kind of founding cast member of a television show called Maiden Chelsea in the UK. I'm shaking my head because I know what this is. Maiden Chelsea in the UK is like a... It's like the Jersey Shore of what we had here a little bit.

probably more similar to the hills. Okay. So like it like it was basically a carbon copy of of the hills. The idea was, I don't know, what would you call it? Like affluent young. Aspirational affluent, you know, wealthy, young people. Not that anyone of us had any money then. But you presented like you did.

Yeah, no, of course. I think the show was presented in a way that, you know, we lived these extraordinary lives. Whereas, you know, a fair amount of that would have been created for, you know, viewing and entertainment, I suppose, you know. Sure, a little more produced. When I kind of look back at the show, it's funny because not many of us lived that kind of life where, you know, one day you're at Royal Ascot and the next day you're, you know, flying somewhere in some helicopter and the next day you're in San Tripay.

And it's kind of like, obviously we don't. Did you enjoy that experience at all? Or was it like kind of? Initially, of course. Yeah, it was great. It was slightly daunting, especially because it's all about your love life primarily. Of course. So it's like dating.

Yeah. Who you're looking up with? Yeah. So you're kind of like, you know, you walk into a scene and you're kind of, you know, what would you call it in America? You're like trying to lay, is it game? Yeah, like, you know, you're trying to chat. You're trying to chat.

So, you know that if you get shut down, it's going to be like viewed by those. It's just in big. It has the potential to be really embarrassing. Of course. So, but also it was kind of original. It was interesting. We had no idea the show would be so successful. So like genuinely, like, we kind of did it.

Because I knew quite a few of the people because I brought a group. of people to it. Then there was another group that came who we didn't know so well that came in. So we all sort of knew each other anyway. So there was that, which was sort of authentic. You were just taking a chance, more or less. But how did the beginning of the show start? Did someone like it from a casting company or were you out partying in London and someone's like that guys? There was kind of two strings to it. I went to USC for a year to film school. Fight on. Yes, mate. Exactly. Hell yeah. That's right. Great fun. Too much fun. I left after a year because I was just like,

I'm not going to get anything done for four years. You know, this is I am, albeit having the time in my life, I am wasting my time. And so I just did a year. And so you did a year in USC and then went back to London. Yeah, at the time, though, I had a friend who lived in L.A. who was incredibly close with Brody Jenna and Spencer Pratt. And it was at the height of the hills. And so it was extraordinary. We'd go, we'd be going for lunches and dinners and going to clubs and stuff with them. And, like, they were being hounded by Pat on scooters and motorbikes. And I was like, what is going on? Like they were being paid like 50, 60K to like go to a nightclub that we would have gone to anyway. And I was like, what is happening?

Like I was like, what is going? They were like huge stars dating like really famous, you know, like singers and actress. I was just like I was confused by it. I didn't really get it. Right. Because like Brody Jenner, obviously like gorgeous, cool dude. But I was just like I didn't really understand how. And I don't mean to say that there's a lack of talent here.

But I was like. I didn't really understand what the appeal of the show because as far as I was concerned, it was kind of, it was like, oh, these guys are just cruising around having good time. Like, they're not singers, they're not dance, they don't really have talent per se. Yeah, so I was just, I kind of, it was the first time I'd ever seen something like that.

Came home and I was having conversations with my friends about it. And I knew a guy who knew another guy. And we kind of basically tried to do a similar thing. We were kind of the first through the door for that. And yeah, as I said, like, we just weren't, it blew up. It's still going. It's in series 30 or something. How many seasons did you?

And all the cast are still, like, they're like 22, 23, like we were. Like, there's been like a wash of past. I mean, I don't think anyone of the original cast are still in it. Maybe they are. I don't really know. I don't, not mean it's to sound cool. I don't pay any attention to it. No, I mean, it's a long time ago for me.

After a while, I think you probably. But I did, I did 10 series of it or something. That's amazing. You know, something like that. And, and yeah, it was, it was huge. There was a point where you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that didn't know what it was in the UK. Here's a question I started asking myself recently. Do you actually know what's in the creatine you're taking every day?

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It's a part of me, but it's not, you know what I mean? Like, I've made reconciliation with some of it. Yeah. But I'm still embarrassed about it. When you look at the show, it's, it's commodity that it trades on is drama, right? If it was a business, the most important thing to drive sales and awareness, whatever you want to say is, is drama. So you're kind of very aware of that. It's super easy to play a safe card, but you, there'll be no interest in you or your character, right?

Like, there was quite a few people who would just play a super safe game and not say anything controversial and not do anything shitty because they wanted to be seen in a nice way. And they were, or dare I say it, just like the kind of less relevant characters, right? So, like, you kind of knew. You kind of knew the more messy you get or the more... The more buttons you press, the more the more badly you behave. Were you the dramatic person like off camera? No, no. So I literally in the most chilled out person you've ever...

You've ever... Pretty level-headed. But I am uncomfortable. kind of always have been. So for me, I really developed, and this is probably more in like series three, this almost alter ego that would only wear black. I know I'm wearing black today, but like, like, there's no white pants on. Yeah. I kind of only wear black. I'd be that like, you know, sort of very, were you playing into the character that was? Completely. Okay. Like, I would come home and be a different person. Like, so I would do scenes as like, I would essentially see it as

acting almost. And the people that I was filming with would also know that. Sure. So like, So was there an element of like you knew some of the storyline that was supposed to kind of maybe unfold a little bit? Yeah, we weren't involved in production, but we may as well have been. Sure. Type thing. You know, so we were very aware of what producers wanted. And I've heard of some other, like speaking of the Hills, Spencer has talked about this, like where he almost... How's his mayoral campaign going?

I think he lost. Did he? Oh, that's a shame. I think he did lose. I know it's been met with a lot of controversy. But what I was going to say about Spencer is he admitted later after the Hill. as it ended, like he was more or less playing into that villain bad boy. For sure. I know, I know him. Because it meant he was getting paid. He was going to be

relevant. And like somebody, you fell into like that expectation. And I myself on Summerhouse, I think early on, I thought I was going to be the cool party boy who like flirted with the girls and made good money. What I was putting out there was fuck boy drunk asshole. Yeah, yeah, no, no, for sure. But I wasn't acting. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not trying to say that all of my mistakes on the show were like fake and acting. But like there was definitely an idea that I was going to play into this darker nature for the fun of the show. And like it was a weird double-edged sword because people would really love it as well. I'm sure. It's not like you do these things and like everyone would hate it. Like loads of people loved it. So you're kind of like, you're even more incentivized to kind of

lean into it. And so I don't know. Like obviously there's there's memes of me like floating around on the internet with like hundreds of millions of views of like me saying just horrendous stuff. I literally look at some of those sometimes because you can't miss them and I'm just like, God, I wish I wasn't like quite as drunk as I was in that scene. And, you know, I sometimes people try and trap me in interviews by saying like, you know, were you like prideful of alcohol by the producer? It's like, no, like none of this was anyone's fault but mine. People make mistakes, they live their life, especially back in our era. I actually don't know how old you are, but it used to be the coolest thing in the world to drink all the time and be like drunk and go out

late and smoke cigarettes and be in nightclubs and be the last person to leave like that was just generally considered to be cool whereas like now obviously it's very different yes but back then it's kind of you know the more you drank the more you were out the less you slept the cooler you were 100% and it's you know I think everyone had an interest in being cool right so so it's sort of it all amalgamated into a bit of a mess to be honest And are you still close with some of the cast crew or the cast crew? Some of them. Okay.

What I'm getting at is you hadn't burned every bridge, it sounds like. No, but it's not even about, I saw it very much as work. There's a few of us that have gone on to do stuff that, you know, I think is really interesting. I've got a friend, you know, Jamie Lang, who's an amazing entrepreneur and business person who went on. His career is incredible. And I'd like to think my career is interesting and exciting as well. You know, there's a few people that have made the most of the situation that we were given. And, you know, I can sound at times a bit ungrateful for that show.

You know, I had a particularly toxic relationship with the show because a lot of it didn't feel real. I was kind of, I felt a bit trapped in certain scenes, you know, like you'd be promised stuff. And then like, minutes later, the opposite happened. And you're just like, that fucking guy. Like, he literally looked me in the eye and swore to me that this wasn't happening and now it's happening. And fucking all the cameras are rolling. And it's like, my blood's boiling. And it's not even about what's happening.

It's like I'm angry with him. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's hard sometimes in these moments is like you're mad about maybe something. We used to call it the shark the shark pit. So like you'd walk into a scene that was supposed to be innocent and you'd notice like there's twice the amount of cameras that this scene needs. Right. And like like there's kind of cameras everywhere.

And there's like a little mark on the floor for like a third person who's like not supposed to be in the scene. And like all of a sudden you're supposed to be having a like normal conversation about attending some party or something with your pal. And then you look around and you're like, they're only going to film this once. You know, and there's room for one more. And you're just like, who is it? Like, like, some horrendous, like, person that, you know, you really don't want to be seeing kind of walks in. And you know, and you know, there's like some huge bombshell that's about to be dropped, you know, and you're just like, you know, like your heart just goes like wild. And it's like, yeah, there's.

I can feel the intensity of this. I have a random question that, like, when the show airs. which is probably a few months after, obviously. Was there moments, like, I find this with Summerhouse and Bravo, like there's conversations that I wasn't in the room for, but now I'm seeing it eight months later. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, Spencer, like, he was such an asshole last night at dinner,

but you didn't hear anybody say that until... Yeah, yeah. Can you talk to me about watching back? But also the edit is an interesting thing, right? You do a scene, you and I would do a scene, and we may have some kind of dispute. And for argument's sake, I might just easily hammer you,

in the scene, right? And then like, that's the end of the scene. And in my mind, I'm like, cool, there's only one way that can go. Like, when we're in the scene, at the end, when we've had our argument or whatever, we call them noddies or lookies or something, whereas, like, they'll have you talk about something completely random. And they'll just get my, just looking at you, like, nodding, like, acknowledging. So that they have stuff to cut to. Got it. And then when the thing comes out, they'll lose my whole bit of, like, me, like, lighting you up over something and like you'll say something and it will cut to me just going and then that's the end of the scene and it's just like what what the hell happened where's the bit where I like like won the

argument and then like you know that and they're like oh well it didn't make too much sense it's like but it's not real yeah yeah yeah anyway it doesn't matter no this is good this is good i i relate to this world a lot i mean a little bit different in some ways but similar in a lot of others if you know me you know i've always got a lot cooking the show the businesses a bunch of things going on all at And when you've got that many plates spinning, the people around you are everything. And I think about someone who just immediately stood out to me, this person was so passionate, so organized, so efficient that they made everything around them run smoother. That's the stuff you cannot fake.

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Nothing in the world is built for tall people. I just got back from traveling. In between the planes and the rental cars, I spent the whole trip folded up. up like a lawn chair. Zero leg room, seat digging into my knees, and my body was wrecked by the time I got home. And all I could think about was getting into a real bed. This podcast is sponsored by Casper. Casper makes reliable, high-quality mattresses built to deliver comfortable sleep night after night, which is why out of 99 mattresses, consumer reports named Casper's the one, their top-rated all-phone mattress of 2026. That's a big deal. I actually got matched

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absolutely, yeah, yeah, definitely. How far in was that and then how far after you had that feeling did it actually happen? I kind of knew that my time was up when, I was like no longer the hero. Because I went through like a few series. Probably went through a lot of phases. I went through a few series. Initially in the first kind of three series, I was probably the lead guy.

Then I became like the lead villain. And then it all just started to be a little bit messy. And you had your fans who thought the whole thing was quite fun. But it was just it wasn't really what you were in it for. You were always just like the kind of dark, like demon style. thing. When you're walking around London or you're at a party or an event where people like, based on that TV persona that you had really developed, people really believe, like, I don't know, did that impact your personal life where people were like, wow, Spenter? Yeah, sort of. It depends.

Or were you act? I was drunk a lot of the time. So honestly, like a lot of my, what would have been true feelings, I suppose, were masked by alcohol. I would drink every day. I drank every day for many years. Did you drink and watch the show back at all? We used to have these like viewing parties. where we would watch it together and then I couldn't bear that after a while so I just stopped going. Because I used to watch our show back when I was, because during, like, I'd watch back scenes that I knew I was drunk in. Yeah. But I would drink while watching those scenes back. There's nothing worse than seeing yourself drunk talking, like just talking complete shit, like in a scene. It's horrible. You know, we had millions of viewers as well. So it's just like,

oh my God, like it's just. Same, Spencer. It's not, it's not. Well, did that, did that ever make you look at yourself and go, wow, maybe I should take a look at the drinking? from what you saw on TV or did that happen maybe years after? No, what made me change my relationship with alcohol was my wife. She never really made a massive thing of it or she never gave me any kind of ultimatums or anything, but I could tell that I would lose her if I didn't fix myself. What point did you, did you have like a,

you told me you were ready to leave the show? How long until that point of, I'm ready, then you actually did leave the show. Was there? Oh, not, not long. Not long. Yeah, just, I'm a pretty decisive person. Were they trying to reel you back in or something?

Were they ready to get? Of course, Carl, come on. Yeah, I'm curious like, that must have been an interesting feeling like a show you built. It was a very decisive thing that I knew I wasn't coming back. It wasn't a question. Nothing they could have said or done. No, I was very bored of it by the end. It went from being really original, really good fun to, this feels a lot like work to like,

oh, this is a job I don't enjoy, you know? Sure. So, and it's just, it's just, it's just bollocks. You'd be standing at a bar doing a scene and it's like, do you think that you'll be invited to Binky's wedding? I was like, I don't give a fuck about it. I think he's winning. Don't care.

So I'm out. I'm out. Yeah. Wow. Okay. It's hard to walk away, I think, from something like that show. Because you're probably making decent money, I would imagine. Towards the end, yeah.

You probably, there's maybe some fun perks of the celebrity of it or the social media following and some other maybe brand deals or other things happening. But stepping away from something that isn't healthy for you or maybe fulfilling you, I think, is really, that's an amazing thing that you did that. A lot of people, I think, would struggle with that. Yeah. People in our world, it's always like, this debate, like, why are you still doing it if you're such a bad person or if you're drinking

too much? Like, maybe you should step away from the show. For me, it was an incredibly clear decision and a clean cut. I knew I'd never go back. That was that. A few other people did struggle with it. They left. They went back. Sure. They went back. My good friend at the time on it, and we had our huge ups and downs really struggled with the idea of leaving it. And it was causing him, like, huge mental health issues. And I was just like, just leave it. And he was very concerned. that if he stepped away, that he'd lose the limelight and the notoriety. And I said, mate, like, even if you wanted to shake it, you can't.

I was like, I left years ago. I can't shake it. It was 14 years ago or something that we started the show. Every single time I get in a black cab, someone's like, oh, mate, how's Millie? Well, like, you know, someone from the show, I'm like, I don't know. It is interesting to me that it is still the thing that I'm probably best known for, which I find interesting and a bit odd. Sure.

Because to me it was just like, you know, it's whatever. The show's been going for years without me, right? So it's kind of, it's interesting to me that it's still a thing for me. Sure. A lot of people recognize me for other stuff, right? Yeah. Like the running stuff, the world records, the untapped stuff, clean code. Like, for sure.

So it's not only that, but it's more to you than just the Maiden Chelsea, which has been. I think when you start, in Maiden Chelsea, you're a cog, right? in a big machine. You are, regardless of how interesting or exciting your character was, you are replaceable, for sure. Like, you leave, they whack someone else in who's just as rotten as you were. Like, you know, there's lots of options. Whereas, like, when you start to chase things that really matter to you, that's when I've

kind of really come into my own, like, things that motivate you to stay on top of what you're doing. Like, I love Clean Co. I love Untapped. Like, these things really matter to me. And I'm kind of really inspired by my own guests. I love the conversations we have on that show. I love the brand building element of it.

It's kind of, and I own it, right? So it's your little space to explore and have these amazing conversations. You don't own Maiden Chelsea. You own nothing to do with it, right? It is very much a platform. You're the equivalent of an employee in the system, which is fine. Whatever. I've been an employee for years and years in all kinds of businesses.

But it's something to do and move on from. It's not something to define you. Totally. We talk a lot on this show about taking care of yourself and doing the inner work. And part of that is knowing where to go when you're struggling. So I want to put something on your radar. No CD. That's no CD.

Here's the deal. A lot of people are living with OCD and don't even realize that's what's going on. The intrusive thoughts, the mental loops. The things you feel like you have to do just to make the discomfort quiet down. And it's not a quirk or a personality thing. It's a serious, genuine. debilitating condition, and for a long time, real help was hard to find. And that's what no CD fixes.

They provide specialized treatment for OCD, connecting you with licensed therapists who are actually trained in treating it, which matters way more than people realize. With the right support, those intrusive thoughts can start to hold less power over you, and you learn to manage your symptoms so you can get back to living the life you want. If you're struggling with OCD or intrusive thoughts that won't let up, please don't sit with it alone. You can book a free 15-minute call to get started. Head to nocd.com to learn more and start treatment. Can I call some of you out for a second? If you're still holding onto that one basic that's gone see-through, pill it's the collar, bend through the wash 200 times, it's time. That's the thing

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And honestly, it's not just the clothes at this point. It's become my go-to for hotel quality betting, travel stuff, all of it. Upgrade your every day. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash radkey. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's QI-N-C-E.com slash Radke. Did you ever have any production or producers go, hey, hey, mate, like, you're drinking a little bit too much for this moment?

The only reason I ask is maybe it's a little different with the culturally in UK versus US. But like, I had moments where I was so fucked up and drunk while filming that they couldn't use the footage. Like, they wouldn't want that on TV because it was so dark. Did you ever have moments that, like, they just didn't show because it was so dark and so brutal? Maybe. They kind of knew. But sometimes you're so drunk and it's providing so much drama. Exactly. They kind of knew that, you know, the more we allowed ourself to slip into, you know, murkiness, the more likely they are to get the...

They're going to get what they want. They're going to get what they want. So, I don't know, there wasn't too much in the way of duty of care. There may have been some pretending. Sure. You know, like, oh, you know, but, you know, it also wasn't like, you know, completely encouraged that we go and get. And I appreciate you saying that. We just did.

That's what you did. I mean, the reason I appreciate you saying that because there is a lot of conversation about these networks and reality programs, like forcing alcohol. Yeah. I never ever was forced. If anything, they took it out of my hand. Yeah, no, agreed. Or they told me to like drink a water and take a break for a second. It was never like, hey, you need this to film this scene. Yeah. So I, there's definitely a dark underbelly to it all. Of course. We weren't, we, alcohol certainly wasn't forced upon. But that's kind of the life you were living. We were delighted, you know, with the fact that there was booze available. Of course. And we'd pay for it if we, you know, if they didn't

provide it, we would pay for it. You know, bring our own. But no, they're, they're certain. You Apparently, as a murky, did have a really detrimental effect on lots of people's mental health. It's a trust thing. You feel like you can trust producers, but you can't at all. Yeah. Right? So, you even feel that you can trust your friends in the show, but you can't. So, like, they'd say something to you. And then you'd do a scene, and it would be completely the opposite of what they said.

You'd sit there and you'd go, you fucking dark, fucker. Like, I literally cannot believe you're saying this shit. That would be a mindful. Like, we just had a chat about this. And, like, now the cameras are rolling. You are literally driving a bus. bus over my head and like I actually can't believe. Sorry to laugh.

And I'd be sat there going like you, you, you absolute prick. And you'd be thinking like, I can't wait to just get you back. How did your employee or your employer feel about all this? Oh, everyone, everyone thought it was like wild and weird and crazy. Because like obviously the show had come out. I'd filmed it whilst working. So I was like, I was at ICAP from 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. five days a week and then I'd film my scenes at the weekend and in the evening so I was just

fucked I was so tired and I was drinking like a fish as well right so it's just like drunk Icap made in Chelsea all together had zero time my girlfriend at the time was just like what is going on who are you yeah I just had I remember telling my parents and my brother I'd gone into finance basically for like their approval basically I never wanted to be in finance or trading or broken or whatever and I remember saying to my dad I was like dad I'm gonna you know I'm going to leave Icap and just do the show and he was just like, do you think that's good idea there? I was like, well, you know, it could lead to stuff. I could maybe be an actor or I could do some presenting or, you know, whatever. I was like, I don't love the. You weren't be, you weren't fulfilled in the finance

world, but you were like willing to take a risk. The finance world was was as bad as anything else for the drinking. My initiation, Icap was I had to have 10 pints of Guinness every day for the first month. So I had to, I had to. My boss was like, you have to have 10 pints of get 10. 10. 10 pints. 10. It's a lot. Yeah, it is. If I had 10 points to Guinness now, you'd lose me to Brooklyn for a few days, I think.

Yeah, I would certainly wouldn't be on my flight home. I would be right there with you if I had 10 pints again. Yeah. It'd be quite a side. It might also just put me in bed. I may not be taken by Brooklyn. I might just go to sleep, yeah. But it was, yeah, so I would try and have like five pints at lunch and then five pints

after work. And then I'd be filming Made in Chelsea. filming made in Chelsea as well, remember. So I would turn up to scenes just fucking leathered, right? And they'd just be like, are you, were you not just at work? And I'd be like, yeah, I've got to drink all this. You know, everyone thought it was mad. Anyway.

I appreciate your honesty on all this because this is how I showed up to scenes. I showed up leathered beyond belief. Or I would say oiled up. Oiled up, yeah. I'd be four drinks minimum. Loved up. Two old fashions, maybe a martini. Delicious.

But also cocaine. I was a big cocaine guy. So I'd show up well-oiled. But also cocaine. I was a big cocaine. There's a moment that I, that some people still talk about. I had four martinis at lunch. There's a place in New York called the 21 Club.

And it's like a button, suit and tie, power lunch, business finance guys. I went with a finance friend. We started drinking martinis at like 12 o'clock. Didn't even eat my lunch. They're solid those things. Those things will get you. Had two, feeling real good at lunch. Three.

Then I remembered I had to film scenes. And I'm still in a full suit. show up to the studio, I mean, hammered, blackout, drunk. And there was a producer that was sitting there waiting for me. They were eating lunch. And I took the sandwich out of the hand. I go, thank you for my lunch. Just like, I was out of my mom. They'll get you those things. It's basically just a glass of vodka. Yeah, jet fuel. Yeah. Straight jet fuel. That's straight jet fuel. That's what got me. It's, it's pretty, it's like it'll, those things will get you. What's your relationship with it like now? So, so do you still it?

for like a drink or like how do you feel about it all now? I mean I hit my rock bottom in 2021 from you my I lost my brother to an overdose in 2020 and that was a huge kind of catalyst for me to actually go the other direction I was like oh my brother's passed I'm gonna go drink again use cocaine like crazy I was isolating a lot though I would drink alone and do cocaine alone finally fell to my knees in January of 2021 you know I didn't want to live anymore I was kind of suicidal at that last day of drinking and using. I called actually an executive at my network at like nine in the morning after not sleeping after doing like two eight balls and drinking a ton of wine and basically told him I like I just said a bunch of crazy things. I called other people and said crazy things. Once I woke up out of that,

I was like, I want to live and I thought I was almost close to dying. And for me, I kind of had a spiritual awakening. And what I mean by that is I have no desire to drink. I have alcohol in my apartment randomly from I old like formulas of our brand lover boy. That's alcohol. But I mean, I have it on display because I'm proud of it, but I have no desire to drink anymore. I go, I'm around alcohol all the time. For me, look at it like bleach. Yeah. I wouldn't drink bleach because it makes me sick.

Alcohol, if I drink it, it's going to make me do cocaine. It's going to make me call people and do crazy shit. And I might even kill myself. Like, that's what the drug use was and the alcohol use was. So I just have no desire anymore. Yeah. So for you, like, I mean, I'm curious like talking about, I'd love to get in like some of the family. You mentioned your dad.

You mentioned brother. Yeah. And I'm sorry for your law. You know, my brother being a huge part of my why. And I'm curious, like, kind of with your family and some of your story, did that shape a little bit of your drinking, would you think? Or some of your partying was some of the family stuff you'd gone through? Maybe. I lost my brother when I was 10.

He was 22. At the time, he was the youngest Brit to climb Mount Everest. That's not why he did it. He just happened to be the youngest. He was a year younger than Bear Grills. And that's an incredible feat. I mean, unbelievable. Yeah.

He reached the summit and had some issues with oxygen on the, way down and unfortunately was separated from his guide it was terrible weather and you know and and and you know very difficult to understand exactly what happened but you know he he was lost in that he was never seen again never made it back to camp before and yeah it was very confusing for for 10 year olds he was kind of like that's a significant gap in age too i mean how were you pretty close obviously he was like a hero to me but you know so i couldn't really understand it when i was told by my parents that he was lost on everest also i didn't really understand what that meant yeah we're not able to I mean, 10 is young to process something of that magnitude.

That's what was said to me. It wasn't Mike is dead. It was Mike is lost on Everest. And my mind just went, okay, well, you know, we'll go find him. Well, he'll be fine, you know, whatever. So I literally just got on with my day. I didn't even register as being important to me. And then days went by and I just saw my parents, you know, very upset crying all the time.

And I was kind of like, what's the problem? And, you know, they said that we'd never see him again. And again, I didn't really believe it. I just thought it was a strange reality to be faced with, even at his memorial service, his body wasn't there. So in my mind, as a 10-year-old, he was in Nepal somewhere, you know. And so I never really processed the death. A therapist would say that, you know, my heavy drinking and desire to destroy myself

and, you know, would have something to do with that. I don't, I wouldn't blame Mike for my own behavior. But I think it would, it makes sense as you talk about it, because I look back a lot of my childhood and maybe some of the things I had experienced, which informed some of that fear and insecurity and guilt or needing to get confident. So that's why I drank and used. Yeah. I generally had, but I didn't realize that until after I got sober. I do have a general kind of lack of empathy. It depends on the situation, obviously. You know, I have kids. I'm very empathetic towards my own children. But, you know, a lot of, I'd go so far as to say a lot of other people's kind of misfortune. when I was a bit younger would just like fly directly over my head. I wouldn't care at all, right? Because in my eyes, you know, something so horrendous had happened to me that it was part of the character and Maiden Chelsea as well, you know, like having to care about, you know,

somebody's breakup or something. I was just be like, why do you give a shit about your breakup? Like, who cares? Like, you know. And that was almost the start of my like character shift into being this like careless, selfish. Hardhearted. Yeah, dude's just like, why do you give a shit? Who cares about that?

Because I was carrying a lot of like, well, my brother died. You know, like, so why do you give a shit about your girlfriend leaving? Who cares? Get another girlfriend. You know, so there was this kind of harshness to me, I think, that was probably emphasized by that happening. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I appreciate you saying it because I relate to that a lot because that's how I was at first with my brother passing. I was like, he doesn't know.

And the way, the nature of my brother passing, I got the call while we were filming. So my brother passing is an episode of television, me learning. And my reaction. In the show? On the show. Cameras in the house, remember? Oh, yeah. Fucking hell.

Jesus. Me getting a phone call on cameras. So that moment though, but I carried this like I'm, I was better than everybody or high and mighty because you didn't have to feel what I felt. And I carried that to other relationships, other people's siblings being lost. But oh, you didn't get the call while you're on live TV. So like my shit is way more difficult. That is pretty difficult.

But yeah, but I've had to do the work on that because everybody's passing is significant. Your brother is just as significant as mine. But I carried like this weight of how it happened that it was more significant than everybody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was more important or more cool or interesting because of that. But I appreciate what you said because I think that makes sense, though. Like your brother's passing is significant and the nature of it. But as a young kid, processing that is hard and confusing.

And for me, like I, you know, when I've been. processing my brother's passing, I was drinking and using cocaine and by myself. Yeah. So I was just going crazy in my head. We talk a lot on this show about taking care of yourself and doing the inner work. And part of that is knowing where to go when you're struggling. So I want to put something on your radar. No CD.

That's no CD. Here's the deal. A lot of people are living with OCD and don't even realize that's what's going on. The intrusive thoughts, the mental loops. the things you feel like you have to do just to make the discomfort quiet down. And it's not a quirk or a personality thing. It's a serious, genuinely debilitating condition, and for a long time, real help was hard to find. And that's what no CD fixes.

They provide specialized treatment for OCD, connecting you with licensed therapists who are actually trained in treating it, which matters way more than people realize. With the right support, those intrusive thoughts can start to hold less power over you. and you learn to manage your symptoms so you can get back to living the life you want. If you're struggling with OCD or intrusive thoughts that won't let up, please don't sit with it alone. You can book a free 15-minute call to get started. Head to nocd.com to learn more and start treatment. Observe the North American Dad, 50s, great polo collection.

He enters his vehicle information on Carvana, an offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch.

Astonishing. Sell your car today on Carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply. I processed it as an adult a bit more. We went to Everest. We made a film that's on Hulu. We went to try and recover Michael's body. And the film's called Finding Michael.

And I worked with some amazing people. And we knew it was a bit of a long shot, obviously. Everest is like everyone, I think, I understand Everest is enormous. But like when you're there, it's just, it's wild the scale of it. And we went there and there's a cool film on Netflix called 14 peaks that is fronted by a guy called NIMS Persia. He's a kind of Sherpy's a bit more than that now.

But he climbed the 14 highest peaks in the world in kind of seven months, I think, in the previous record. was seven years right before he did it and he and his team did and it's called 14 peaks and I reached out to him and I spoke to him about Michael and his body being on the mountain because somebody had sent us a picture of a body that looked like it could be him and when I received the picture we were kind of cross-referencing it against you know what Michael was wearing and it did look like it probably could be him and I went out to Canada to see his climbing partner and I said you know do you think this could be Michael and he said yeah I think that has every chance of being Michael

kind of looks like it could be him. So then, you know, reached out to NIMS and I said, look, we'd love to see if we can recover this body from Everest. And body recoveries from Everest are really rare, really rare. So until now, hundreds of bodies have just stayed on it on Everest. Anyway, spoke to NIMS and he said, you know, sure, we can come to an arrangement. Disney picked it up as a film and we shot it called Finding Michael and I retraced his exact steps all the way up Everest. I didn't climb Everest myself. I think my family would have gone into hell again. So,

you know, I, I promised my mother, particularly, that I would stay at base camp, even though, you'd rather be climbing. It's so boring.

Sure. Base camp for, we were there for five weeks. Wow. And so, like, it's like the summit, base camp is like the summit

of Mount Kilimanjaro, height-wise, which is the tallest mountain in Africa. Air's really thin up there. Like, if you were to do 20 star jumps, you'd be out of breath, like even as fit, you know,

young guys. Like, you know, It's quite hard to live and exist up there. So there's a lot of sitting around, a lot of weight being lost generally. Your body's just throwing off any weight you don't need. So you're just becoming quite emaciated almost. But quite boring as well.

There's just nothing really to do. I don't think it's a spoiler anymore because the show came out. But we ended up recovering the body of a Nepali Sherper instead because we found several bodies. We actually found the body of Scott Fisher, the US dude who was in the film Everest, played by Jake Gyllenhaal. But we found many bodies, none of whom, unfortunately, were Mike. And I chopped down from base camp to meet the family of a body that we had found that was quite close to camp four. Wang Dorci Sherpa, his name was.

And met with his mother and asked if, you know, she would like us to use the resource that we had put into finding Michael, into bringing him home instead. And she literally, like, I'll always remember it just kind of, nearly fell over like burst into tears because it'd be incredibly expensive to recover a body and she wouldn't have ever ever have had the kind of capacity to do that or the the the means to do that so also in that religion you can't pass the afterlife until you're cremated so bodies on everest to them are just considered lost um so being able to bring him back helicopter him down to this you know hospital rooftop return his frozen body by the way fully intact

I sat on him, right, flying down in this helicopter to deliver him to the family because there was no room in the helicopter. And his face was just like, just here. And he's just like completely, completely intact. Because obviously, frees to death. Yeah. And so, yeah, we delivered him to the family. And it was a really full circle moment.

He had a 10-year-old daughter. So I saw like myself in her. And no, it was it was quite the experience. It was shame that we couldn't find Michael. But actually my sister put it really well, you know, she said Michael, you know, if there was one ticket off the mountain, would have preferred that we did that for them anyway. It's beautiful. Yeah.

Well, he was a beautiful person. And that was an amazing experience. And I felt very close to him actually on the matter. You know, obviously only being perhaps like a kilometer away from him. Yeah. It was the closest I'd been to him in 20 years. And it was just very It's beautiful, man

Kind of cathartic, you know, I loved the experience of feeling close to him. I like the experience of retracing his steps. I mean, how did you prepare for that mentally? Difficult, because the biggest thing that was weighing on my mind was, you know, shit, if we find him, I'm going to see him.

Yeah, you're going to be faced with that. Right, yeah, yeah. And he's going to be essentially my younger brother, right? Because he'll be frozen in time. So he'll be 22 still. and I was I'd be older than him so it's wild right so I was 10 when he died

he was 12 years older than me I would have been 12 years older than him so there was this big like there would have been this big mirror moment also we look very similar so Michael and I look very similar like we were described as twins separated by time and

had a lot of similar similarity so it would have been like you know seeing him as I saw him when he left but also just being sat with him generally like hugging his dead body or whatever would have just been weird

so I in a way I'm quite happy we didn't find him because it would have been quite odd right like all of those years later to yeah see him totally that's like to unpack all of that and also you know like you would hope this is what was playing on my mind when I was trying to get to sleep you know and stuff

you would hope that he looked peaceful and his eyes were shut but maybe he would look like he's in complete hell yeah because he was fighting for his life you know he's frozen and you never know what he would have looked like like Wang Dorkshire Sherpa looked like he was sleeping Mike could have looked like he was in full panic you know like and you know that would stick with you for forever right so so I don't know I was a little bit there was a really small part of me that was relieved sure when we took somebody else home because I was like I'm not quite sure I was what you're going to do you know what you're going to actually that keen to be to meet him again in that way sure there was a few times we thought we'd

found him as well so the whole the film you know lots of americans haven't seen it in england it was seen by 11 million people uh and uh but but you know here here i think it's on hulu so take take a look maybe it's a cool film i appreciate you sharing all that because i mean not to just to insert a little bit about i i had an opportunity to visit where my brother was found he was found under a bridge in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up. My dad had photos of his body and everything, and I was offered the opportunity to look at these photos, and I still have declined. You've never seen them. Never seen them. It's only been five years now. So I've still trying to see how I feel about that. But as you talk about some of this, I feel like there's

something, maybe some healing in some of that, or maybe some closure I might get. And there were some beautiful things that I've kind of uncovered in these last few years. And I think just your story of like searching for your brother, but you helped another family and another person. And my brother's story in the craziest way is helping other people. And your brother was helping someone else and you're helping other people. And I'm sure that the film hopefully brought maybe some peace or maybe some hope to those people also who've lost siblings or have people that are missing or not found. So I hope there's some beauty in all of that. I hope maybe you see some of that because you telling that story helps me. Well, thank you. I was able to kind of let go of quite a lot

of anger because at the time, we received quite a lot of phone calls from people who were there saying the oxygen systems weren't working properly. Like the kits, like didn't fit the tanks. Like, we think Michael was given a placebo tank of oxygen because there wasn't enough oxygen at Camp 4 for everyone. And, you know, there was a lot kicking around that like made us annoyed, right? Sure. It felt like the negligence. Or it felt like the death could have been avoided, right? that it wasn't his fault. And that, like, we all know that climbing Everest is dangerous and that there's a chance that you may slip and fall and die.

That's not the same as, you know, somebody taking a risk and not telling you, right? And that the risk ending up killing you, that's manslaughter, essentially. And I grew up with that, right, feeling like that these two guys in particular, like, killed my brother. And that led to quite a lot of the, like, darkness in my, you know, it's not fair. It's not just. It's, you know, he was taken from us instead of he made a mistake or he took a risk. So that was an extra kind of element of it. And I was able to kind of let go of a lot of that on the mountain. Like when you're there, you realize a lot of things. You just go, like, whether or not that is the case, the mountain is a dangerous place. It takes lives. It took lives

when we were there. You know, and it's kind of mistakes probably happen. People probably do things that maybe they didn't intend to do. You know, if something is going wrong, there's literally nothing you could do. Wow. Appreciate you sharing all that. I really do. I want to just touch on some of the Clean Co, the taking a break from a drinking. Can you kind of talk to me about beginning of taking a break or getting sober for a little bit or what that looked like?

Sure. I wanted to be better initially for my now wife, Vogue. Her name is Vogue. Yeah, so she was one of the first people that kind of was a guiding light or someone you didn't want to lose. So you knew you had to get your shit together. Her name is Vogue, like the magazine, her mother claims it has nothing to do with the magazine. It absolutely has to. Yeah, I wanted to get better for her.

I did the whole, you know, when I decide something like leaving the show, it's just, it's done, right? So I, like you, hit an equivalent of rock bottom. I must have had like, you know, maybe a bottle and a bit of whiskey one night. I was calling around all my friends to come and, you know, drink with me and spend time with me, couldn't really get hold of anyone. Eventually, one of my friends came around, literally walked in, put my arm around his shoulder. I didn't even say hi. Walked me to bed, put me in bed, flicked off my lights and just left. And I was like, what the fuck is going on?

Like, literally, I was so confused by it, right? And that was his way of saying, like, I don't want to sit and drink with you. Like, you're fucked up. Go to sleep. Like, go to fucking bed, right? I've just come over from Notting Hill to put you to bed, right? Just shut up, go to sleep. And I was like, okay, that feels a bit weird.

and then like woke up the following day and I was like maybe I am just a mess right so announced to you know my family and close friends I'm done with drinking I know okay yeah cool um you know see you in the pub tonight probably sorry to laugh no no for sure never like nobody believe me and um did a month did two months did three months did six months did a year you know all of a sudden everyone's oh fucking hell like Jesus is that hard for you that first no not at all you seem like I mean it's it becomes hard when you become sanctimonious, right? Like when it, when it feels too easy is when it becomes hard. First like four or five days, best decision ever, loving it. First month, oh my God, like,

I literally can't believe, like what my life can be like. Like, Jesus Christ, like, am I going to become an astronaut? Like, you know, I can do anything. And it was, it was this incredibly liberating. And about four months into my sobriety, which I was just loving and just preaching about telling everyone about how amazing it is. And like you, I'd walk past people in a pub and just think that they were drinking bleachers. Oh, God, losers. Like, you know, like, yeah, very, very judgmental and high and mighty. Super high and mighty. Yeah, like, high, my wife literally was like, I don't think you need to be, like, quite as high horsey about, you know, it. Like, you were them, like, not long ago. Yeah, exactly. And they probably were nowhere near as bad as you. So, you know,

all of this judgment can probably just, you know, get stuffed somewhere else. And I, uh, yeah, I went to a party. My brother is married to Pippa Middleton, whose sister is going to be the next queen of England. They throw a great party. And I was in their living room and she offered me a non-alcoholic gin and tonic. And I was like, a what? And like, this is back at 2018. And I said, a non-alcoholic gin and tonic. What is that? Like a tonic water with, you know, garnish. And so she was like, no, no, like a non-alcoholic gin. I've got this non-alcoholic gin. I've got this non-alcoholic gin. I was like, what is it? Show me. Seed lip, only brand in existence at the time. Never heard of it. Never seen it marketed. Nothing. Mixed it with tonic. Long story short.

New then that I wanted to be in this world, right? And I couldn't believe there was nothing else. I didn't care about market data or consumer research or anything. I was just like a really energetic, ambitious, driven founder, naive founder. Knew nothing, right? But I was just like, right. Sometimes it makes the best founders, though. They're the best. It's like, you don't know. You don't know the rules. Yeah.

So for that moment you were at that dinner party or that. I knew it straight away. That was like, I'm going, this is for me. Because I needed something in my life at this stage, right, to fill the void of socializing and alcohol. So, like, I had more time in my day. Sure. For sure.

My wife literally was just like, you've literally just replaced like getting fucked up with business now. And I'm like, yeah, isn't it great? But it's healthier maybe. And she's like, well, like, it's. It was almost like the same. Yeah, you just traded one for the other. And like, and I'd be working the whole time and I'd just be like so passionately involved in what I was doing.

She was a little kind of like. I think that happens sometimes when people first are getting sober and they've got all this energy and then they're filling their time with running or cooking or building a business. I think it's interesting because you learn to be a more rounded individual as you get older. Like, you know, none of my entrepreneurial stuff really digs into my family life now. You know, it's like a separate thing. One last question for you. Okay.

I ask this of everybody. What is giving you more life right now? My family growing. We're expecting another child soon. Congrats. Fourth. Full house. Your wife really deserves another acknowledgement.

A fourth baby on the way. I feel very just lucky and proud of my relationship with my wife. at the moment, you know, we like any couple have had ups and downs, I suppose, you can say. But I really feel a lot of, like, love in our family at the moment, a lot of support for each other for what we're doing. And yeah, just, you know, I think it's that very boring, you know, happy life, you know, happy, happy wife thing, you know, or happy husband, happy life, whatever. Boring is good sometimes.

But we go to bed early. We, you know, I've hardly ever drink. You know, I'm very fortunate for my relationship with that. And as I said to you at the beginning of the interview, I was a bit of the interview, I can see myself just being completely sober because actually every single time I drink, I regret it. Not even if you're drinking too excess. Like, I'll go out for a lovely dinner.

We'll celebrate getting a deal done. I might have two glasses of, like, delicious wine. I regret them in the cab on the way home. Like, literally, I get home and I'm, and I may wake up with a green recovery. It doesn't get in my way at all. But, like, still, I'm like, I didn't need those. You know, so I'm at that stage where, like, it's not even a release. it's not even fun. I do it every so often, but it's kind of like, it could be celebratory with

colleagues. I sort of don't, don't really want it or need it type thing. Like, I've really enjoyed being in New York for the last two and a half days, no boozing, nothing. Like, that would kind of be unusual for me. Yeah. Going to New York, like going out for dinner with, like, colleagues and stuff, like not having a beer. But I just decided on my way out here, I was like, I'm not going to drink in the airport, I'm not going to drink in the plane. I'm not going to have any drinks at all. I just want to focus on my running. I want to focus on, you know, the task at hand. I want to just like be completely like clear clean conscious like i i don't even want to have a beer full stop and like i'm just in such a good place with it so that's bringing me a lot of life as well

like i think anyone with a dark history of this stuff like us i think it's nice when you just feel completely at peace with it 100% well i think you say you stated it very well and i appreciate your honesty i appreciate your authenticity i love everything you've shared and i just applaud you for all that you've done and especially sharing your brother's story and i connect with that and again i'm sorry for your loss. I know it's been some time, but I think your brother's still helping and inspiring you. It inspires me, so I really appreciate you taking time. That's kind, Colin. And congrats on what you're building as well, mate. It's very cool. Come back and see us anytime, my man. I've got to go over to Chelsea sometime. Indeed.

Cheers, brother. Thank you guys for tuning in to More Life. Thank you to Spencer. We'll check you guys next time on More Life here at Soft Bar in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Cheers. More Life is produced by Annie Siegel, an executive produced by Adam Reynolds of Denham Pictures. This episode was directed by Annie Siegel, edited by Mikey Ortiz, and recorded at Softbar Studios in Brooklyn, New York. More Life is a production of Sony Music Entertainment. From Sony, our executive producers are Chris Skinner and Joanna Clay. Original music by Function Adams.

Sound mixing by Ian Sorrentino. Set designed by Michael Ignacio. Publicity by Caitlin Healy. Additional support from Abby Sharp. And a special thanks to Allison Schoenner, Shano and Joanna Orland. New episodes drop.