More Life with Carl Radke - The Addiction Story Behind a Beloved 'Parks and Rec' Writer with Stephanie Wittels Wachs

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

Harris Wittels was one of the funniest writers in comedy, a Parks and Recreation writer and producer and friend to Sarah Silverman, gone from an opioid overdose in 2015 at just 30 years old. His sister, Stephanie Wittels Wachs, spent years not understanding what was actually happening to him, and turned that grief into a mission to make sure other families wouldn't have to learn it the hard way.She sits down with Carl for a conversation that feels like two siblings comparing notes on a grief they never asked for. They talk honestly about opioid addiction as a disease, how families fall apart trying to respond to it, and the real, practical harm reduction tools, including Narcan, that are actually saving lives right now.Stephanie is the CEO of Lemonada Media and author of "The Last Day: How to Stop Losing Our Loved Ones to the Opioid Crisis," written for anyone who has ever loved someone in active addiction, or lost someone to it.Resources from this episode:Naloxone (Narcan) Safe Spot overdose detection hotline Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My rec league goalie says he plays for the love of the game. You gave up six goals last week, Steve? Maybe play to win, huh? Like with Bet365, I get paid the second my team goes up big with early payout and can cash out at any time before the game ends. Steve, Bet365, the home of winning early. Must be 19 and older, Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

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How to Stop Losing Our Loved Ones to the Opioid Crisis. So today's episode and today's conversation is a really, really important one. something very near and dear to my heart, which is really understanding addiction and the disease and really how to communicate to your loved ones, how to better understand the struggles that people are going through as it relates to addiction. And I think this conversation can really help a lot of people. And her book especially is helping a lot of people out there. So I'm so excited if you got to listen to this conversation.

Excited to dive in today here at Soft Bar. Come in live here in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Ladies and gentlemen, we have Steph Whittles Wax today on More Life. Welcome to Moly Life. Hi. Hi. Thanks for coming out. Thanks for having.

I love you read. Thank you so much. Is it summer or fall in your humble opinion? It is fall. I think it's still summer. Why? That is objectively not the right answer. I'm not ready to turn it over.

It is September, my friend. I know. Labor Day is kind of the sign. Yeah. I like a couple, like two week window after Labor Day. You want to hold on to the summer. I think September still. Are you a summer guy?

Just a little bit. You like summer. Is that your favorite season? It is. Even before the summer stuff? Absolutely. And I cherished the beach. I love the beach growing up. So to be able to do a show called Summer House, which, funny enough, we barely go to the beach. We go to the beach once or twice a season. But we did just finish season 11. Yeah, how you doing? I'm still here. You're still

here? You live to tell the tale. What's funny is even after last summer ended, everything was great. Everybody felt good, vibes were high. Yeah. Great summer. Right. Fast forward. Yeah. It'll do to me now. So anyway, this podcast is called More Life, as you know. Yeah. Which the lore of Summerhouse back in the day, I used to say more life because it was one of my favorite things to drunkenly say. But as I've gotten sober and just lived my life more intentionally, more life is really just my mantra. So I'm curious. It's very profound.

It is. I had to kind of take that. Yeah, that is really, that's, oh. I think sometimes taking that pain or that embarrassment and turning it into something more meaningful is kind of how I wanted to wrap my arms around. totally because for a while I was embarrassed of that moment. I'm curious though this isn't about me this is about you. I mean we let's talk about you. Do you have a saying that you live by? Oh. Or do you have a saying that you say out loud to your team, to your friends? I mean, I feel like a saying that I say often is way less positive than more life. But my thing that I say constantly

is a the cemetery is full of indispensable people which is I wouldn't say. Can you elaborate? Yeah. So like, My dad used to say this to us all the time growing up. The dark side of that is everyone's replaceable, right? Like, it sort of humbles you in a way. Like, it's, you know, you are not the star of this event. Like, the world is going to keep turning without you, right? But there's like some power in that, I think, because it's like, it sort of releases you to sort of do, it's sort of a more life. Honestly, it's sort of a flip side of a more life.

It's a dark version. Can you say it again for our listeners? The cemetery is full of indispensable people. We put that on my dad's headstone, like literally. Like, yeah. I mean, it's like a mantra in our family. I kind of like that. I don't know.

It's glass half full, glass half empty. I don't know. See, I always like to think the glass is just the right size. Yeah. Okay. Never too big, never too small. It's supposed to be just right. I love it.

But it's hard to thread that needle. For our listeners and audience, can you kind of explain or just describe who Stephanie Whittles waxes? A lot of mutual connections. Yeah. Even before we started today, you know, dopy Dave, Zach Clark, you and I have a lot of commonalities. And I think, you know, I'm curious just for those who may not be familiar with you. Yeah.

If you can kind of give us your background and who you are. The backstory. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting how we come to be in spaces. I certainly never anticipated that I would be on your show talking about what we're talking about. But my way into this is that I had a brother who was my bestie, Harris Whittles. He was my only sibling. Like truly, I know some siblings aren't very close I was with him.

What was the age difference? Three years. Yeah. You were younger. I was eldest. Oh, you're eldest. Yes. So older sister.

Got it. Yes, really. The complex that keeps me going. But yeah, my brother was an incredible light. You know, I mean, he was the funniest, like objectively the funniest. Sarah Silverman said he was the funniest. So he was. And Sarah was very funny.

She hired him. When he was 22 years old, like fresh out of college, because they needed a greenie on the Sarah Silverman program. And like she had met him backstage at like a open mic. And so he got hired like as a child. Like he was like a newborn baby and was like hired into his first writing job. And then he went on to write for Parks and Rec. And he wrote on that show for seven seasons. And he played Harris, the animal control guy on the show.

If you've seen it, it was the high one ironically. Sorry to laugh. I know. It was a really. It was a really funny. Really funny show. Yeah. He was an amazing person and he had an addiction to opioids.

When did that start? He called to tell me that he was addicted to OxyContin three days before my wedding. Damn. Yeah, very much. Very damn. And had that been going on for quite some time or did he? No. He lived hard as a human.

Like went hard at what he. He committed and went all into things. Like he loved fish the band and went to like hundreds of fish concerts. In fact, funny, funny story about Sarah, when he got hired on her show, okay, first job, he's like, yeah, I'll take this job, but I need to be off for four days right when we start because I have to go to see fish. And she was like, what the fuck? My soul has left my body slightly because this is exactly who my brother was. Stop! He attended over 200 fish concerts.

What? Would sell grilled cheese and speak. Wait a second. I bet they knew each other. No, 100% knew each other. I'm like, when you just said the fish thing, like my body just... That is... My brother was notorious.

Like, he went on tour, but not like... With the band, he was like in the parking lot. Yes, yes. Yeah, it was like that culture. He would, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of fish concerts. So he went on... So he went to hundreds of fish concerts and... I mean, that's amazing.

You know, so your question was like, when did this happen and had it been happening for a long time? I know your story, your brother struggled for a long time. It was like a really extended journey. Yeah, I mean, I would say around age 15, I was five years. I was younger, which maybe I'm curious too, being the older sibling. There was obviously some confusion and understanding of that. And I know you talk about it in your book, but being someone like that age gap for me, I was front row seat to his addiction.

I watched my brother shoot. I didn't understand it at the time. But he had, you know, had like a balloon. that he was like kind of tourniqueting his elbow and then he was shooting and he had a spoon. But I was 10 years old. Oh my God. So I didn't fully process some of that at that age. Now, you know, I might have been older at that time too, but the usage started around 15, 16 for him.

So, you know, your brother, when did you think he started using roughly? I mean, here's the thing, like very different for us. Like, I did drugs with my brother. We recreationally did drugs together. I mean, we went to like a very progressive performing arts high school. And we weren't shooting heroin, to be clear. Like, we were, you know, like smoking weed and dagan acid and drying mushrooms in my dad's jerky dehydrator, like, that we picked in a field. You know, I mean, like, it was kind of fun.

It was kind of fun. It was kind of fun. It was kind of fun. You know, we smoked cigarettes and, you know. Yeah, teenager shit. Teenager shit. Yeah. Totally.

And I could stop at any point. And he could too, honestly. Like, you know, I think like people think it's like drug addiction. It's like zero to 100. And it's like you're either clean or you're like totally strung out or something. And there's like degrees of it. And I always knew that he used drugs recreationally. The fish stuff.

Like, they used drugs there. And like we lived in different cities. So his career was climbing. He was so successful. I mean, on paper, this kid was like, like shooting it out of the galaxy. You know, like everybody coveted his journey, his path. Like getting hired at 22, working for Parks and Rec on a network show, like all before

he was 30. Yeah. So I didn't really see that it was becoming an issue. And I think when you're living in separate cities and you only see each other on the holidays or whatever, I mean, we're texting, that's the other thing. Like, we're texting constantly, but you can't hear somebody's voice over a text. You can't, like, pick up on those cues. Yeah.

So I knew that he had, he had like some back issues and so he had been prescribed oxy content. And I felt like we were, when I was visiting one time, there was like a moment that I just clocked where he was trying to get a pill. And it was like there was just an intensity to it that I registered. Sure. I was like, hmm, that is a desperation that I, that doesn't feel fun, you know. That doesn't feel recreational. But I kind of like filed it away. and like, you know, went on with my life.

And then, yeah, he called me and he was like, I'm spending $4,000 a month on Oxy. Damn. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, what does that mean? You know, I had no conception of what that problem was and what we were supposed to do about it. Exactly.

But he was awesome. And so I was like, well, deal with, like, fix it. And he was like, yeah, obviously. You know, like, it was just like, I got it. Sure. And I was like, do you remember what? The solution might have been. What got it was?

No idea. Sure. Certainly didn't entail going to any sort of program. Yeah. Like, I'm going to white knuckle it and. Yeah. Like, totally. It's like, I've got it.

I'm going to figure it out. And he told me I couldn't tell my mom and my dad. But he still was going to come to the wedding. He was going to come. Yeah. I mean, he was in the wedding. Yeah. But he was like, hey, heads up.

I'm an addict. And I'm spending $4,000 a month on pills. And I'm going to like get back and I'm going to take care of it. And I was like, okay, buddy. I mean, was there some tough love from you at that moment? Or were you in shock of how to maybe respond? In shock? Confusion.

And like, I was worried, but I really didn't ever know anybody that was severely addicted to anything. And so I had no frame of reference. Yeah. So I was just like, okay, well, he's telling me that seems good. What I say in the book is like I felt like I was kind of like dropped into the woods at night without a map, you know? It was just like, where do I go and what do I do? And this feels scary. And does anyone else have a map? Does anyone have a compass? How do we get out of here? Yep. I just had no idea. I think it's a really good way to explain that. Yeah.

Is kind of like confusion and understanding of this disease and whether it's a drug addiction, substance abuse, a variety of those things. As someone who's, you know, I was younger than my brother. It was so confusing to me. And I had a lot of resentment and anger. because I was like, fuck him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a liar. He's a cheater. Totally.

The anger and the resentment, I didn't feel until way later. But when I say way later, like Harris is addiction. Let me just orient you to time. Like, this was March 2013. He went to his first rehab in February of 2014, one month after my daughter was born. He was dead February 2015. It happened that fast. It was basically two years.

So I wasn't lied to, cheated from, stolen from, I mean, I was lied to. I was totally lied to. Sure. And he was going to work still. Like that's the thing. He was so functioning. He was so high functioning that it didn't get to that point. Can I call some of you out for a second?

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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash Radkey. We talk a lot on this show about taking care of yourself and doing the inner work, and part of that is knowing where to go when you're struggling. So I want to put something on your radar. No CD. That's no CD. Here's the deal. A lot of people are living with OCD and don't even realize that's what's going on.

The intrusive thoughts, the mental loops, the things you feel like you have to do just to make the discomfort quiet down. And it's not a quirk or a personality thing. It's a serious, genuinely debilitating condition, and for a long time, real help was hard to find. And that's what no CD fixes. They provide specialized treatment for OCD, connecting you with licensed therapists who are actually trained in treating it, which matters way more than people realize. With the right support, those intrusive thoughts can start to hold less power over you.

and you learn to manage your symptoms so you can get back to living the life you want. If you're struggling with OCD or intrusive thoughts that won't let up, please don't sit with it alone. You can book a free 15-minute call to get started. Head to nocd.com to learn more and start treatment. So he came home. I remember my daughter was born in January 2014. So he came home in December and it was like her first Christmas and like he was a wreck. I mean, he just was not in good shape.

Peaches was, you know, I was like, whoa, dude, you do not have got it. Like, you're not okay. It's hard to be around that, too. Oh, it was horrible. So hard. And the only solution that I had was like, you have to go to rehab because that's what people do when they're addicted to something. You're going to go to rehab. You're going to do that for 30 days.

And then you're going to come out and you're going to be cured. Like, go. Easy, piz. Like, we need to move on. Yeah. We have things to do. Okay. We have a family vacation.

Okay. You need to get clean now because you're interrupting all of our shit, you know? Yeah. And I didn't understand anything at that point, but I really didn't understand that, like, people use drugs not to feel bad. They use drugs to feel better. Like, he was using drugs for a very specific reason. And, like, of course he didn't want to stop doing that. It was providing benefit.

You know, and he still had his job. He still had, like, he was doing fine. And he had this thing that was like easing pain. Whatever he was going through, it was helping. Yep. But I think it, the family sort of was like, you're not well. You don't look good. Like, go get this taken care of.

And I think he was just like, fuck it, fine, you know? Just the peas. And I think he probably felt a little out of control at that point. I mean, at that point, when he first went to rehab, he was not shooting heroin. yet. He was just doing the pills. Yeah, pancala. So, you know, this was almost a year since he, you know, he told me he was addicted and then when he finally went to rehab. And then I really did think that when he went to rehab,

he was going to come out and be fine. And he told me he was fine. And he told me he was fine all the way until we went on our family vacation that I was like, you need to go get sober. And when we got to that trip, he was so fucked up. And I was like, wait a minute, you went to rehab four months ago and you've been telling me that you were clean. And he was like, I am. And I'm like, bruh. Like, you are not well. You're worse.

I saw you in December and now you're worse. Why is this problem getting worse? He texted me a month later on my way to Oregon with my sponsor. I started shooting heroin. and yeah yeah so I was like well okay cool um so wow so okay cool um so okay cool and I remember that night like I was like how what how did you what do you mean how did you learn to do that he told me he learned from a YouTube video wow and I mean I was just like and I feel like at that point it was like this weird shift because you know you're saying like you saw your brother

shooting up when you were 10. When Harris started shooting heroin, it's like my entire family was like, Harris has an addiction. Like when he was doing the pills, it's like we were like, it's, yeah, it wasn't like a...

It's medicine. Yeah. It's fine. Like my dad was a doctor. Like internal medicine. The day my brother started shooting heroin, like my dad was like, I'm done. I'm out.

Wow. Like I'm, this is not... We're done. We're done here. Cut them off. Like, done. And... I think that's,

the debates a lot of parents have had. I know my parents, one or the other would be like, I'm done. But then that would create conflict between my parents. Totally. My dad would be done and my mom's not. My mom would be done and he's not. You kind of have to, yeah. It's really hard.

It's really, really hard. It's really hard. And the stakes are so high. And from the perspective of the loved one, like, if my kid is doing something dangerous, if my kid doesn't know how to swim and gets near a pool, I am like running, grabbing, like you protect your loved ones from danger. So if he's doing something that I deem dangerous, of course I'm going to want to do whatever it takes for him to stop doing that. But ultimately, like, it's not up to me when somebody gets sober.

Like I don't get to mandate your journey, which was really frustrating to me, you know. But yeah, so he went to rehab again, got out, did the 30 days. I was like, okay, is it going to work this time? Like, rinse repeat, I don't know. And then, you know, he did this podcast where he was like, I know the stakes now. Like, I'm clean. I'm feeling good. And by the time he had done that podcast, I knew he had already relapsed, like, you know.

And then that December, like, I came home and saw him like just really sick, just really in withdrawal. And it was like the first time I like snapped like I saw that he was sick. It was the first moment where I was like, oh, you're not just a fucking asshole. You're ill. And you need medication. You need medical intervention. You don't need to go to a rehab. You need to go to a hospital. You know what I mean? It was like it was terrifying. In your book, which by the way, I applaud you for writing about some of this material, a lot of books that have covered some of these things, TV shows, dopsick on FX with Michael Keaton. Yep.

I mean, amazing show. Yep. I had to turn off. Totally. It was really difficult, some of the material. But like everything you just said about disease and he was sick, like that stuff that I didn't fully understand until I actually got sober. It was like, because I'm also, you know, I was pointing fingers and always my brother's

an asshole. He's this, these, that. But it didn't, it took me a lot longer to understand the disease and the sickness of it. And I'm curious just like. Like you writing this book, your brother's story. Can you talk to us a little bit about like that whole last day and like leading up to that? Yeah. I mean, like nobody should die at 30.

It's just like what? It's so, so wrong. And the fact that he was this like brilliant human who had so many resources and he still died from this. At the time, I just, like, did not understand that there was a way to not die. You know what I mean? Like, I had no idea that he had something called an opioid use disorder. I had no idea that when he called me to tell me he was, like, on Suboxone. And I responded by being, like, why are you replacing one drug with another?

Like, if I could go back. Do you know what I mean? I just, I had no idea. And I think that's the stuff that was so confusing and hard as the sibling. Yeah. You know, I struggled with this with my... My brother, as someone who's watched Summerhouse, season one of Summerhouse, I was on a green screen. You know, they filmed the show, but I'm sitting in the chair talking to the camera.

And I looked at the camera and I, like, was an asshole that weekend. Well, my brother is a heroin addict at home. It was like my justification for why I was acting the way I was. My brother watched that episode. I mean, he went on social media publicly and went crazy for obvious reasons. But that's what stopped me and my brother talking to each other. and I never spoke to him ever again after that because of what I said about his addictions on public television. And texting him back, Suboxone, you know, a harm reduction tool, but you may not be as informed.

And just how you communicate with addiction and loved ones who struggle. Yeah. It's really hard. And that was something I still wrestle with. You know, what I said about him publicly and how I, as someone who was in their own act of addiction, then talking about someone else. Yeah. Like it was really wrong and really screwed up. and I really struggled with that for many years

and still have to wrestle with that because it created a huge gap between me and my brother. But I'm curious, like, talk to me about, like, learning and understanding this disease. And like you said your brother was sick. He needed medical intervention. He needed a real help. Talk to me about that.

It's hard, especially when you're in it. It's really hard. And, like, it's easy for me now to say, like, compassion, unconditional love, radical acceptance. You know what I mean? I'm like, totally. But it's like when somebody's like fucking lying to you and stealing from you and doing all the symptoms of that disease, I think the harder choice is to stay connected. Yeah, good point.

Yeah, it's tough. I mean, like your dad, it's easier to cut people off. It's easier to say, I'm done. Well, and like my dad, I think he blamed himself. Like, I don't think he ever forgave himself for turning his back on Harris. Like he was diagnosed with Parkinson's very shortly after my brother died. And I really believe that like Parkinson's ultimately like 10 years, you know, it took and, you know, my dad died last year. But thank you.

But like, I think sorrow like took him out, you know. I think he never forgave himself for that. And as a parent, you know, like I have two kids in my own. Like the idea that I would turn my back on them, it's devastating to even think of. And to your point about the learning and understanding, like, even you saying, like, I feel bad about that, I did the wrong thing. Like, I have spent so much time over the last decade being like, I did that wrong, I did that wrong, I did that wrong. And, like, I think it's helpful for people to hear that. Of course.

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Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. We talk a lot on this show about taking care of yourself and doing the inner work. And part of that is knowing where to go when you're struggling. So I want to put something on your radar. No CD. That's no CD. Here's the deal.

A lot of people are living with OCD and don't even realize that's what's going on. The intrusive thoughts, the mental loops, the things you feel like you have to do just to make the discomfort quiet down. And it's not a quirk or a personality thing. It's a serious, genuinely debilitating condition and for a long time, real help was hard to find. And that's what no CD fixes. They provide specialized treatment for OCD, connecting you with license that, who are actually trained in treating it, which matters way more than people realize. With the right support, those intrusive thoughts can start to hold less power over you,

and you learn to manage your symptoms so you can get back to living the life you want. If you're struggling with OCD or intrusive thoughts that won't let up, please don't sit with it alone. You can book a free 15-minute call to get started. Head to nocd.com to learn more and start treatment. So if you don't mind me ask, your brother passed in 2015, you said? Yeah. February? What was the day? Did it mind me ask you? It was the day before my birthday.

February 19th, final, fuck you. Well, can I ask, how do you celebrate your birthday now? I did not celebrate my birthday for 11 years. My husband... I said, does Michael celebrate it for you? My husband gave me a cake every year that said day. Day. Just no birth.

No, no happy, no... Like, it was so dark, Carl, because literally the day after Harris tied, I opened Facebook and it was like the balloons. It's your birthday. And everyone was putting all these messages on my Facebook page about how sorry they were that my brother was dead. On your birthday. Yeah. But it was like, happy birthday from your friends. It was so dark.

I was like, Harris is like orchestrating this somehow. Like, this is so fucked up and twisty. Well, you seem to have a good, you seem to process some of this, have a humor about some of it. Yes. Some of this. I mean, obviously, Harrison is very funny and incredibly talented. Yes. I feel like that's how we've wrestled with some of this is just to laugh.

But I feel you almost have to laugh in some of these dark situations because there's no other, like, it's just like, what the fuck? This is the thing also. Like, I'm 11 years. Like, you know, I wasn't laughing like this, obviously for a long time. Like, it was an annihilating. I think gives people some hope. Yes. And anybody who's watching, I know we have a lot of people who listen to our podcast that have lost siblings.

to a variety of things. But I have struggled to those anniversaries. Yeah. My brother's now sixth anniversary came up about a month ago. And I sat up here and did a solo podcast. But I, over time, I've gotten a little more comfortable. Yeah. But last year I was like crunchy and like cried all day.

You never know. And it wasn't attached to my birthday. Yeah. So. Like this is the thing about grief though. Like I never would have started Lemonada. I never, none of this. None of this.

It was like I was this person who was like gripped with like fear and anxiety. And then once you like survive the most horrible thing that ever fucking happens to you, you're just like, who like what? Yeah, everything else is easy. It doesn't matter. Like when we started Lemonada, it was like, what's the worst thing that happens? Like it fails? Who gives a shit? That doesn't.

That's like the best energy to have that or something. It's like a fuck it. It's like actually you ask me like what my friend. Like what my favorite phrases, I feel like, I would be like, fuck it. Fuck it. You have it here. Like, fuck it.

That's it. It's like, you have one, like, this is the thing. When you're in deep grief, you're like, when Harris died, like, I was so, I was shattered. Like, I was on the floor. I could not, I could not move on. I had, I was a teacher for 10 years. I quit my job. I had no idea what my place was in the world without him.

I was like everything, nothing matters. nothing matters. Like, I'm done. It's over. But then the nothing matters, like, turned into like, wait a minute. Nothing matters. I like that. Nothing matters.

Yeah, it's like a shift. All of that sort of like, the stuff that became this book, like, took a long time to get to that. I met this lady whose brother died of a heroin overdose. Same as my brother. We, like, became friends. She was like, do you want to make a podcast about the opioids crisis? I was like. Which I applaud you.

And I think a lot of people, when they lose someone that's significant in their life, it's like they go two directions. They make their whole life to honor and really do what they can to embody that person. Or they go down a dark path. I kind of went down the dark path for a bit and then found my way back to the right side. Yeah. I don't know. Like I just felt so intent on figuring out what we got wrong.

Like I was just like, this didn't have to happen. been. He should not be dead. Like, his last day should have never come. So, like, the idea for the show was, like, how can we highlight somebody's last day, then rewind the tape essentially and figure out, like, could we have changed the ending? Sure. And what could we have done differently? And, and, like, yeah, like, the sacklers are terrible. Fuck them. I hate them. But, like, that's not going to help me if my loved one is struggling with a opioid use disorder. So, like, what could we have done? You talk about something in your book about your fifth graders assembly. Yes, yes.

Because I was a dare kid. Totally same. Okay, so there is this addiction medicine doctor who lives on the Monterey Peninsula. His name's Dr. Casey Grover. Shout out to Dr. Casey Grover. He goes around and does all the assemblies for the kids, right? And like when we went to the dare assemblies, it was like cops. Yeah, just say no.

Just say no. This is like an addiction medicine doctor who comes in and says to the kids like, you see the people living under the bridge, you know, those are my patients. Those are my people. I love them. Like, speaks of them kindly. Talks to the kids like, why do you think addiction is? Why do you think people use drugs?

And the kids all raise their hands and they say really negative things. And he goes, no, addiction is something that people do to feel better. It's something that, you know, they feel bad. And so they use something to try to make themselves feel better. And then it ends up causing them more problems. But, you know, he sort of like frames it for them in a way that, like, They're not bad people. Get them on Sesame Street.

No, for real. Like, and so he literally, in this assembly, he, like, laid down on the floor and had me Narcanon in front of the kids and then jumped up on his feet and, like, was like, see, I'm fine. Like, you won't hurt anybody if you do it. Sure. I was like, what if we had gotten this education? I mean, while you're saying this, I'm just thinking of, like, the harm reduction, just

the way you're talking about addiction, the way you're communicating about people that are struggling. Totally. You know, like, you've seen those people under the bridge. My brother was found under a bridge. So, like, I relate to that a lot because the thought of someone that is underneath in those streets or sleeping on the street or shooting up in the... It's a human. But, like, how dark and down bad someone is in that level of where they're at in their life.

Like, totally. Of course, you need to have some compassion and love. I mean, and calling them his patience. Like, that almost made me cry. He said, my people. My people. Those are my people. I mean, that's amazing.

I love them, is what he would say. Peace together for our people, like, sadly your brother's past. Yeah. You are struggling for a good period of time after that. A few years. But I think it's important for people to realize you can move on. Roll your sleeves up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Get your shit together and get back to life and keep moving forward in the best way. Still honoring your loved ones. Totally. But taking care of yourself too. And I think it's important for people to recognize like it may not happen in a year. No. It may not happen in two. No.

But I'm just trying to connect some dots for like, so you've, you're struggling. But you met this woman. You start a podcast. Yeah. You go to the fifth grade assembly and like each little. thing connects after. Yeah, I mean, when we started the podcast, this was 2019, and the podcast was the first show on the Lemonada Network. And Lemonada is my podcast network that we started together. So when she was like, let's do this podcast and like figure out what we should have done differently, at first I was

like, no, I don't want to do that. And I met her a week before I gave birth to Harry. I was like, I'm going to go on Matt leave. And like, she had started pitching it out. And we were getting on this feedback that like it was too niche. I was like, what? Like, are you, like addiction? I mean, people aren't talking about it. Anybody who says it's niche is just projecting their own. It's ridiculous. They're projecting their own insecurity about addiction. Yeah. Because it's, it's uncomfortable for some people. And it's everywhere. It's not niche. It touches everyone. And so this is like, this is like, fuck it. We'll do it ourselves. You know what I mean? Like, there we go. Fuck it. My favorite phrase. When you walked in today, you seem to like really like dove headfirst.

first in substance, abuse, addiction, behavioral health, the book, the podcast, some of the work you're doing in your community. Like, I sometimes need a break. Oh, yeah. Because my personal connection to addiction with my brother, it's painful sometimes. And I'm curious, like, how do you balance from the outside, it looks like this is your entire life all day, 100% addiction, substance, educate all of that. Interesting. And I'm curious, how do you navigate? Because you have a personal connection that's sad and tragic and really difficult. Sometimes I need a break from all this stuff. Totally. And I'm curious. Like, do you ever take breaks? I mean, I literally, I feel like I'm done with this. I feel like the book was like my last chapter of this. Like the last chapter of the last

day. Yeah, truly. Like I learned so much about like my grief in the beginning was just like so all encompassing and I wrote another book that was very great it was like very raw and like I wrote it in the nine months after my brother died like it was very very fresh and you know once we started making the podcast I learned all of this stuff and I was like the fact that nobody knows this is criminal like I know how to help people now and like I don't want to just have this information and not have anyone else have it I wrote what I wish somebody had given me when I was in it so I wrote the book And now I am very much done. I'm done.

Like I, the other thing, it's like my, my team, like many of my friends, like I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm not a serious person. But I love what you say that because I think sometimes when you're talking about, it's medical stuff. Yeah. It's pretty heavy. And there's a lot of difficult, I'm sure, topics and things. But like, yeah. You're also just a human being too. And I love that you, you know, you and your brother laughed.

You guys had comedy and jokes. Yes. Because that's how I am. Like, I know I talk seriously. I live a pretty intentional life, but I'm also like a goofball and like not being serious. Totally. Because life shouldn't always have to be. I appreciate you saying.

I would not be able to live a life that was. You have a little bit of a balance. Totally. And I'm so happy because now it feels like it's, it's how I felt with my first book. Like I got the dark stuff out into the book. And this is like not the dark stuff. This is like the solutions. This is like the answers.

Like I don't want anyone to have to be in a position. where their person, their favorite person calls and says, like, I'm addicted to something and not have a resource. Yep. Like, there are tools that exist. And that is, like, what I wanted to do. And so, like, I'm ready to take a break. My next book is going to be pure fiction. All smut.

Like, I can't wait. It's going to be, like, craziest romp you've ever read. Like, I'm like, no more disease and addiction and drugs. I will read that as well. It's going to be great. Well, because something like, I love that you're, I appreciate your honesty. Just, you know. Yeah.

You're not all 100% living and breathing, last day material, all that stuff. But do you encounter anybody privately or publicly? Like, I'll give you a random example. I was in the Hamptons, obviously, this summer. A lot of the time when I'm out in public, people see me and come up to me and share really difficult things. I always, I'm so honored and touched that they share and I give them hugs and we connect. Occupational hazard.

But sometimes I'm not prepared for someone walking up to me and telling me that they lost. thing that's ever happened to them. And it happened this summer at 1230 at a nightclub. And I was talking to friends and someone was like grabbing me. And I turn and they're like basically telling me that their brother also passed, which I immediately, I'm gutted. I know. My soul leaves my body again.

I'm like, I'm so sorry. And but I walked out of the club that night. I'm just like, that sucks. Like I got an Uber and went home by myself and I'm like, of course I'm so glad I can touch this person and connect with them. But I'm also like, I know. I'm not equipped for that. kind of thing all the time.

Dude, same. I mean, like, for real. Like, I appreciate your honest. I have a theater degree. Okay. I did not. I'm not a therapist. Yeah.

But I get it because this is the thing. If you're somebody that talks openly about this stuff, it's so stigmatized. There's so much shame around it. People do like flock to you like a magnet because they're like, you get it. Yeah. And like we just talk. But I feel like I don't fully get it in the way that you. have kind of done some of this research and work you've done.

There's another layer I think I could live, but it's like what I look at Zach Clark, who you just spent some time with, who I've always, he's a big mentor and a friend. But I feel like what Zach does and what I do, like peanuts in comparison. Even with some of what you're doing in comparison. But like that's what I do.

It's like I compare myself to everybody. But you learned about your brother's overdose on camera. Like you have literal lived experience that people saw. Yeah. You know what I mean? I didn't want to make my brothers more significant than anyone else's.

You know, and you're... Oh, oh, my gosh. And I think sometimes it's like, oh, my brother died cooler than your brother died. Oh. Kind of thing. I don't want to carry that. I think I did early on after my brother passed.

It was like, well, you didn't get a phone call while you're filming. Like, deep in my heart was like, yeah, I like had a worse finding out than everybody else. Yeah. Like, that was my addicts. Yeah. That was my character defects big time then.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, of course, everybody is significant. And however they're passing, mine was no more important or no less important than anyone. And people will say, like, what do you think your brother would say? And I'd be like, he would tell me to shut the fuck up. Like, he would be like enough. Yeah, like, stop.

Like literally Steph, stop. Like, it is enough. You know what I mean? I've thought the same. I think my brother would be like, just stop. Just go live your life. Please. And stop fucking using me.

Yeah. As why you're doing X, Y, Z. Yeah, totally. What I was saying, though, is that, like, I think that, like, it's a natural thing for people to come up to you and try to share that with you. Because you, you have lived that. And it's something that we all feel like we have to hide. But it is, it is tough. Yeah, I mean, it's a blessing.

I think when I meet people that are as open as someone like yourself with those types of topics and material and especially your own personal story, I'm sometimes caught off guard. When you get those DMs or you get those messages with really difficult things that people are sharing. What would you share with someone today that's watching who maybe has a sibling or loved one still alive but struggling and they don't know what to do? What would you say? I mean, I feel like this is like so self-promotional and I don't mean to say it, but like for real, like read this book. Like it is like. I'll do it for you. By the fucking book. I mean, by the fucking book. Just like the front cover is really powerful. Just I mean. Okay. How to stop losing our loved ones to the opioid crisis. I mean, I know of I went to my. 20th high school reunion a couple years ago. I was in the student council and I had our

role list from my graduating class. I'm standing there with my friend Taryn Bird. She's a friend of softbar, very good friend of our brand. Going through the list, hi, Carly, come on in. Good to see ya. You know, 20 years. Can't believe it. Oh, Carl, you're on Summer House. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm going down the list. I counted. How many people? Ten kids. My grade, Upper Sinclair High School. Gone. Totally. It's insane. I know. Opioids, overdose. Well, the cover designed by Mike Wax, my husband. Shout to Mike Wax.

What I wanted to do with it is like, you know, you see these tallies, these people that are like nothing. And you zoom out. You see all these people. And each of those people are somebody's loved ones. Somebody that you love. Yeah. And we become so desensitized to it. You know, this crisis, we become so desensitized to it.

But there is so much humanity behind it. And I just, what I would say to somebody, is like, overdose is preventable. Addiction is treatable. There are things you can do. And there are lots of things you can do. And all of them are in that book. I don't think that was self-promotional.

I'm sorry. I just... I appreciate what you're saying, though. I understand. But there's a lot of good stuff in here. And I also, whenever people write me something like that, I also just say, like, I'm so sorry. And it's so hard.

And I'm, like, sending you so much love. I think the honesty is also just like, There's no real quick fix. No. And I think that's what I want people to understand. People want a quick fix. It doesn't exist. Like I had,

I had an addiction medicine doctor explained to me in the first season of last day that it takes five years to go from last use to sustained remission. Wow. Five years. That is 1,825 days, many 30 days. I'm almost coming up on six years. Okay. So see?

Took, I mean, five years to unwind. Five years is like where you get to the. the baseline population. Like, your risk level is that of the general population. Wow. And so, like, when you reframe it that way, and that is disease framework, that's just like any chronic illness. If you have some sort of a cancer or something like that, you're going to go every three months and get your scan. You're going to have a relationship with a doctor. You're not going to go get chemo for 30 days and like, all right, I'm done. Cancer's, cancer's done. We took care of it, everyone. Yeah. Like, you have to keep going. And then even after the five years, you have to do all the

things that help maintain your recovery. If I can ask, because you shared a story about Narcan. Yes. I also have been in a position where Narcan was utilized and we saved someone's life. I was right there. That's the power of harm reduction. It's amazing. You never know. There's a lot of weird shit. I tell women, put one in your purse or put one in your backpack. My kid, my kid cares. I have one of my toilet tree bag that I travel. I mean, it's silly. I'm not using, but of course, it could be someone else. I've personally watched someone's life get saved from Narcan. That's incredible. Insane.

It literally does say lies and it does help a lot. I mean, it literally does. In 2024, it was the first year that there was a reduction in overdose deaths. Like, massive reduction. Like, the biggest public health win, the fact that it is in people's glove compartments, it's in people's purses, it's in vending machines and college towns. Like, in 2015, when Harris told me he was addicted to drugs, I had never heard the word Narcan.

I was like, what's a Narcan? I didn't know what it was until like four years ago. Of course you didn't because it was only used by an injection and like healthcare providers were the only ones that could minister it. Now that you can get it at the drugstore, you can get it on Amazon.com, okay? You can get it like anywhere. It is literally saving lives.

So I know that it is hard because we live in a puritanical world. And it's very difficult to think that you would enable somebody, right? But like what's the altar? You let them die? Not a good alternative. Like I'm going to take let's let's let them live. Let's give them more life, if you will. Shout out to you. Love that. That was smart. But like here's the thing. It's like there are hotlines you can call now and you can use while you call the hotline. There's one called safe spot. I talk about it in the book. It is a government funded overdose detection hotline and people are like, oh, that's enabling. Well, then they die. So like, I mean, what, you know? That's a thing. That's a thing. It's like we have tools. There's medication for opioid use disorder. There's no locksone. There's all these things that we have at our disposal.

I'm just glad you're standing on this hill. I'm standing firm. Yes. And I will stand holding hands with you on this hill because I have personally seen it. There's other varieties of harm reduction tools and solutions and resources. I just think the more we just can offer that and less about, oh, you're enabling or you're, they're just going to just, okay, what's the solution then? I had as harm reductionist from Georgia. Her name's Jesse B.

She's like, I like the accent. Amazing. We love our Georgia B's. But anyway, Jesse was like, we do harm reduction every single day. She's like, we do it every day. Every time you get in a car, you put on a seatbelt, that is harm reduction. Every time you get on a bicycle and you put on a helmet, that's harm reduction. Every time we wear a condom, that's harm reduction.

Like, she's like, we have overdose prevention centers. They're called bars. You've got like a bartender that's doling out this amount. And you know what I mean? It's like we do it, y'all. It's just like... I love that you said the seatbelts thing. It's true.

I even had this whole theory and I have one last question for you, but I have this whole theory even with just the shifting of drinking. Yeah. And the lifestyle and what I do here at soft bar. And my theory was it took us time to evolve and realize the impact alcohol and other substances have on our bodies. But if you look at a car, for example, like the car was invented in the early 1900s.

Yeah. But it did not come with a seatbelt. No, it did not. Until the 70s. And people were. were pissed. And they flipped out about it. People were so crazy in the 70s. You can't tell me how to buckle up. Don't tell me what to do. Like 100%. And now, if you get in a car, you don't put a seatbelt on, it's like, are you insane? Are you an alien? Like from outer space? I love you for that.

No, it's, in the 70s, people went crazy. Like, you're not going to tell me what to do. And that's the thing. Like, that's why I feel like the fact that we are having this conversation about Narcan, the fact that you have seen somebody's life. saved by it. I talked to so many brilliant people who like do so much deep policy work and they all say like politics lives downstream of culture. So if you change the stories that people tell, the laws will follow, right? And like when you're trying to change hearts and minds, people are going to tell you're fucking crazy. They're going to be like, you're wrong. And it's like, okay, cool. Like that's fine. Seat belts are a great example. And now it's like totally accepted, right?

that's what happens with culture. So I think we're like getting to a point where like if we keep having this conversations, like it's going to be normalized. I love this. But like I get it. I understand like the human instinct to be like, RRour. Totally.

Don't tell me what you do. I love that voice. Yeah. Okay. I got one last question for you. Because we're coming to a close. It better be a good one. I'm just loving this combo.

Me too. Are we besties now? We are. Okay. Great. Appreciate you. What's giving you more life right now? Like in my in my sort of daily life.

Yeah. Okay. I just created a backyard oasis at my home. Okay. I got this fire pit and I just live by it. Like I am just like outside by the fire all the time. And I have the best children objectively and husband and friends. team and I'm just surrounded by good humans. I love that. I'm just I'm in a happy space right now.

I love it. I know. I'm sure I'll go down at some point, but I'm celebrating while I'm up. Celebrate while you're up. Exactly. Count your blessings. Count your blessings. Stephanie Whittles Waxe. Thank you for being here. Oh my God. No, seriously. This has been an incredible. This has been great. You're the best. Thank you for writing this book. And thank you for reading this book. Well, thank you for all you're doing. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for. I want to have you back on again. I can't be. Because I want to get more into the addiction stuff. You and I can spend an hour on harm reduction. Okay, we'll do a part two.

Yes. Next time. Deal. Stephanie Whittles Wax. Thank you. Thank you for being on More Live. Let's high five. Yeah, print that.

So thank you guys for hanging with me today on MoreLife. We're coming live from Softbar here in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Check us out wherever you get your podcasts. YouTube, Spotify, Apple, rate, review, subscribe, click the comments, all the things. But thank you guys for being here. We'll talk to you soon. More Life is produced by Annie Siegel. by Annie Siegel and executive produced by Adam Reynolds of Denham Pictures.

This episode was directed by Annie Siegel, edited by Mikey Ortiz, and recorded at Softbar Studios in Brooklyn, New York. More Life is a production of Sony Music Entertainment. From Sony, our executive producers are Chris Skinner and Joanna Clay. Original music by Function Adams. Sound mixing by Ian Sorrentino. Set design by Michael Ignacio. Publicity by Caitlin Healy.

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