More Life with Carl Radke - The Bachelorette’s Michael Allio on Losing His Wife, Single Parenting, and Finding Love Again

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

Two years after losing his wife Laura to cancer, Michael Allio did something no one expected - he went on 'The Bachelorette' to start living again. He sits down with Carl to talk about going on reality TV as a grieving single dad, raising their son James, getting judged for daring to move forward, getting sober, and how he slowly found love again on his own terms. A beautiful conversation about grief, fatherhood, and the courage to begin again before you feel ready. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.

On his podcast Chasing Life, I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta. CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life. Are some people just born happier than others? And what might they be doing that the rest of us aren't? Follow Chasing Life with Dr. Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, IHeart Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, I'm Carl Radke. Welcome to More Life. Today's episode, we have Michael Allio.

You might recognize him from The Bachelor and also Bachelor in Paradise. He shared a lot about grief, losing his wife to cancer, being a single parent, and most recently, getting sober. He also has a book, Children's Book, that just came out called Where the Wild Heart grows. I'm excited to check that out, but I cannot wait to talk to him. I hope you guys check us out. We're coming live to you here at Soft Bar in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Michael Alio. Yes, sir.

Did I say that right? You got it. You crushed it. We already just talking before. Michael Alio is here, guys. Welcome to More Life. Thanks for having me on. I've been wanting to do this for a while.

I appreciate you. Yeah, let's get deep, brother. I was excited. Michael came in the door. He's got his soft bar, cafe beverage, ready to go. Delicious, by the way. Thank you.

This is a big thing about my More Life podcast. More Life is a mantra that I've kind of embodied. Yeah. It started out as something I said very drunken on TV. And it turned to this whole thing. But as I got sober and as I've, started really, it's good to have a daily mantra or something that you can kind of live by. And you've changed the definition of it.

Exactly. So I had a friend call me, he's like, garl, less is more in life. Yeah. And I was like that. We've modified, but my mantra is more life. I'm curious, do you have anything that you live by? Facebook came to my college. We're around the same age.

So I think we were, what, sophomores, something like that? You had a university address? Yeah. I went to Syracuse. Yeah, I was at Loyola in Chicago. And this was actually the same quote I had, there and I love it. I still live by it, is that it's wrong to expect a reward for your struggles. The reward is the act of struggle itself, not what you in. And while we can't defeat the absurdity

in the world, we must make that attempt. And I absolutely love that because it helps me just kind to get through some of the struggles in my life looking at struggles in a different lens. Yep. That they're teaching you something and that you shouldn't be rewarded for the fact you're going through it. The fact that you're going through it is the reward. That is really profound. I love it. Who's behind that quote? Phil Ox.

Phil Ox. Yeah, it's a really, really good one. It's somewhere in the studio. It's a beautiful one. It's universal. I get a lot of people, you know, even what I'm doing here at soft bar, like, it's open. Everybody's like, it's amazing. But like now that I'm here, it's like, you got to appreciate the little struggles.

Those little struggles are actually a gift or its responsibility in a beautiful way. And I love that you kind of flip the thinking on it. Yeah, 100%. So I try to live. by that every day, but as we know, that's impossible. So it's a good quote to pull me back when I wander a little bit. Yeah, so for our audience that, I mean, I'm sure a lot of the ladies know who you are because of your bachelor career.

Well, from the demographic of like, you know, 38 to maybe 62. So, but how many seasons ago were you on The Bachelor? So I was on The Bachelor at 2000 and 21. Okay. And then I went on Paradise. Got it. So that was after. Yeah.

So that was like maybe a year and a half afterwards, two years after. all foggy. It's all foggy. Did you ever envision you'd be on a reality TV show? No, and it was, it was wild. They reached out to me on Instagram randomly. I mean, there was a casting director. Had you been familiar with the show at all? Yes. I mean, my late wife watched it. Yeah, so I'm sorry for your loss. Regularly. Yeah, it's been a crazy decade, brother. But she watched it all the time, and she had girls' nights on Mondays to get everybody together. And, you know, I just thought the whole concept was so ridiculous. And then here I am in 2021 jumping on. And I love the process. Yeah, I want to get into some of the reality experience. We've had some former bachelor's on.

Shout out to Zach Clark who's a dear friend. Yeah, Zach Clark, who's a dear friend. I know you guys are buddies. Yeah. I've gotten to know if you were the other guys over the years, you know, Jason, Dormick. Jason's a good friend. You know, even pilot Pete a little bit. Yeah, Pete's fantastic. I feel like your story, though, what you already were coming into with The Bachelor, you had such a really powerful story. And I wasn't aware of it at the time. Yeah. But he talked to me about like, I know when Zach joined The Bachelor, of course, he's got an addiction and some of his personal story, which were you worried at all about having to talk about some of these very personal things, but on such a large stage? I mean, I had a feeling that I was casted for the storyline.

I mean, no offense to that. It's like all things can be true at the same time. Of course. And that's one thing. We'll get into later about what grief teaches you. Absolutely. At the time, I really didn't like where my life was headed. and I really needed a shakeup.

It was about two years after Laura passed from breast cancer. I'm so sorry for your last month. We were together for 16 years, so since we were 18. And, you know, my story isn't that different from a lot of people. I mean, cancer's on the rise. Caregivers have no place to go. They feel unheard and unseen. I mean, families get broken apart.

And so by no means, am I a martyr or anything like this? It's just a guy in a tough situation trying to make the best of it. And then they reach out to me and I say, you know, what the hell? Maybe this is the spark that I needed. And I knew that that decision, regardless of where it led, was going to show me a road and give me experiences that I otherwise wouldn't have gotten. I mean, it's so powerful that you were able to, you know, go through something. I mean, obviously with the love of your life, your life and all the tragedy of all that. but then to kind of see like what could happen.

I mean, I feel like a lot of people after grief or after someone passes. Yeah, sorry for your loss too. Thank you. I mean, it was debilitating for a while. And what I did is I went the other direction. I started drinking and using cocaine a lot. Yeah. It was isolating, not connecting with community.

And I was beginning to get even more sad and depressed and abusive to my own body. Yeah. And it took some time and I realized I got to get sober. I have probably grieved. Yeah, I love your honesty about this because I think there's a misconception about me out there that all of a sudden I turned into this extremely strong dad overnight. I numbed all of my emotions through drinking and distractions and all of that. And I appreciate the honesty of that because I think everybody assumes, like you just said.

It's like, oh, the widowed guys, like now Mr. Tough Guy hero, and you're like, no, I'm just this. No, not dark days. I mean, really, really dark days. When you talk about trauma, I mean, I saw it all. And it gets me, it makes me emotional to hear about it. Yeah. Yeah, and we traveled the country looking for a cure. We rang the bell.

We had multiple cancer-free diagnoses. She was diagnosed when James was seven months old. Wow. So excitement about having a kid, also fear of having a kid, two things working at once at the same time. And all of a sudden, we get the call. And James actually found Laura's breast cancer because he stopped taking breast milk from one side of the breast.

Interesting. So that's why my company, St. James and everything. Very beautiful. Yeah. And getting back to kind of numbing your feelings, I was feeling so much pain for so long, just being a caregiver. I knew she was going to pass about a year before she did. And just as a caregiver, I never got to vocalize that. I never really had to have that conversation with her.

And I think about that all the time. but in that moment, I had to be like the rock. I had to be the hopeful one. Like get to the next scan, get to the next appointment, do all of that. And then afterwards, I'm drinking, I'm numbing it. And then I realize there's nothing worse than feeling numb, like feeling disconnected. Yeah. Like I would take the pain on any day because at least I feel alive.

And so that's when I started kind of shifting away and making some life decisions so I could be a better dad. And I appreciate you, honestly, man. And this is, it's hard to hear some of what you went through just because of what I can relate to in a lot of ways. But the strength you have to show your family, your kid, the public. You know, I can just give you an example. Like when my brother passed, I went off the deep end, but I was being praised in the media for how I was navigating it. You feel like a fraud. Fraud.

I had an article from the UK-based, like Us Weekly called The Sun. Oh, yeah. And they did a thing. It was Carl Raggy being praised by Bravo fans for how he's navigating his brother's loss. I literally had cocaine dripping on my nose and I'm reading it drunk on the couch. Yeah. And you're like, thanks for the like. but now I'm going home laying on my pillow, beating myself up.

Can you talk to me about just like all of like that strength you had to show and how, I don't know, like at that point in your life, it was like as the male, you're expected to be strong. Yeah. Did you have any place to go to to vent or did you find any grief? I still struggle with that. I still struggle with being my own advocate because for so long just as a caregiver and also being thrown in as a dad. It's something I want to work on. You're a brand new dad. Brand new dad. And when we had James, the whole idea was to raise him together. And there are so many skills

that I just didn't have in my toolbox to be able to raise him and give him the kind of life that he deserved. So that pressure on me was building and building. And it was like, God, is cancer going to take my wife and also the life my son's supposed to have? Is he going to be a victim of this? And so I thought about that stuff on a regular basis and it ate me alive. Just a bit debilitating. Yeah. How is like that, I mean, navigating grief is something we do talk about on more life. I've candidly, because of the nature of how my brother passed, which I found out while filming Summerhouse, which was very difficult among, you know, regardless of how it happens, it's horrible and sad, but the cameras were rolling in our house,

that moment is captured on an episode. It fucked me up beyond belief that I was going to have to let this play out on TV. But I've almost made myself feel like I'm unique here. So I don't need to talk about it as much. Right. Because I've already done it on an episode. Sure. I've done a lot.

But I went to an Al-Anon meeting not that long ago, and I was a friend of mine who also lost her mother to a difficult thing, was challenging me. Even though your brother's gone, you need to still show up for other people in these communities. It was crazy. It was that meeting I went to. I needed it. And even me, even my brother not being here now, talking to other people who have loved ones still alive and being able to come together. It gave me some peace and hope in my grief process. And I don't know if you can talk about grief a little bit for our audience because it is a roller coaster.

Oh, my God. I mean, what's the most absurd roller coaster you could go on? I mean, I remember year one being the easiest because she still felt close. And everybody's probably showing up. People are showing up and there's adrenaline and there's survival kick. in and then the house goes silent. And you're just left with your thoughts and your responsibilities and life continues on. Life goes on. Life continues going on. And I remember going to grocery stores. Dude, this is so embarrassing. It's not embarrassing. Oh my God. You're a safe place.

Literally for like three years. I hated elderly couples. Like hated them. I get it. I hated hearing them complain about their wives. I hated the fact that that should have been us. That was the life that we planned. And here they are just at the grocery store. And I'm over here grinding my teeth at them. But it makes sense. And you're honest. Can I be completely honest with you in return? I want you to have the floor.

No, no, no, no. Let's go. I'm jealous of siblings. Yeah. I see brothers. Yeah. No joke. Kyle Cook, who's one of my best friends.

He has an amazing brother Corey, who I love also. Seeing their bond as brothers alive, it's like, I'm jealous of it sometimes. Should have been you guys. Yeah. And I look at some other friendship, sisters in mine. I'm like, it's hard. I work heavy on visualization. I know I'll see lore again.

I know you'll see your. brother again. So anything separating us right here and the ones we love is time. When we get to see them again, what stories are we going to tell them? Are they going to want to know that we just sat here and wasted life? Or can we live a little bit for them? You know, can we go on reality TV shows and make a fool out of ourselves? Yeah, we sure can, Carl. You bet your ass we can't. And you know what? Like that is all going to happen. And so do we miss them every day? And that ache hurts and it's real. But the end results that they're waiting for us and they're proud of us.

They walk with us. And it's us who are suffering, not them. I love that you say that because I say that sometimes and I hear myself say it. I'm like, maybe sounds a little fluffy. Well, it's not supposed to be like toxic positivity. It's really a, maybe it's a coping mechanism. Maybe it's about faith. Yeah.

Maybe it's just how to get through the day. I don't know, but it helps. I mean, how do you navigate? I mean, I have feelings sometimes of negativity with my brother. the past. Yeah. Anger, resentment. Sure.

How do you navigate all that with? Like your wife, the woman you loved and married and had a child with and then she's no, like, do you have resentment or is it more positive memories and like the moments you fall in love and all that? I never had anger. I never had angered towards God or the doctors. I mean, this woman was one of the greatest gifts the world's ever seen. I mean, everybody that she met felt her presence.

everybody would say the same thing about her. So beautiful. Every single time. And I get to see her every day in my son's eyes. And that's just such a beautiful. So beautiful. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. But it wasn't always that way.

Like, when she passed, I felt so bad because I immediately took down all of our pictures. It was just this weird thing. I took them all down in our house. Not because I was trying to forget. But I didn't want to look back on those memories in my current state. Got it. I wanted those memories to be preserved. It's just very intentional.

But it was weird because it was interpreted by some people as, oh, well, she's gone and now, you know, moving on. But no, I mean, I brought them back out when I was ready. But it's like those were special and I want them to remain special and I didn't want my mind to play games with them. Sure. And I think what I've tried to do is hold on to the good stuff. Yeah.

Or protect some of those memories because it wasn't always, I'm sure, roses. No. So when it comes to GLP-1s, most people don't actually know. know what their lowest cost could be. They just assume it's expensive. And that that one assumption, it stops them from even looking into it. But that's where Roe comes in. Roe's free insurance checker makes it easy to see if you're covered.

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We talk a lot on this show about getting real, doing the work, and building a better life. Something I've been totally open about is my own struggle with an eating disorder. And if you're listening right now and feeling exhausted by constant. thoughts about food, exercise, or your body, I get it. I know exactly how easy it is to tell yourself you're not sick enough to get help. But the truth is, eating disorders don't have a specific look, and you do not have to keep fighting this on your own. That's why I'm so proud to partner with Equip. A quip provides 100% virtual evidence-based eating disorder treatment for all diagnosis and all bodies. You don't just get an hour of therapy a week. You get a full,

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Quince.com slash radkey. Was there something you picked up on early in the grief process that maybe could be helpful for our listeners or things that you've kind of encountered? I mean, for me, it's been, I'll listen to music that that reminds me my brother. Who you listen into now? I mean, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead. My dad and I, every birthday, will throw on a fish song or album in Texas. text each other about just thinking of my brother in these moments. But I'm curious, is there something... I've gotten lost in a couple of those fish parking lots.

You know what I mean? My brother used to sell like whipits and spaghetti to get tickets to get into the concerts. I think when you hear the word grief, it sounds dark and scary. And I find sometimes maybe flipping the thinking on grief and appreciating the characteristics of the person you miss and love. But my brother was hardworking, very creative and very talented. but other parts weren't so great, obviously. But I guess is there things that have worked for you

and your grief process, whether that's... Oh, man. During the last, I would say, four months of Laura's life, we spent about 75 nights in a hospital overnight. And I was really proud that I didn't miss a night and I didn't miss the doctor's appointment. So if people are caregivers out there, show up. And it's just like sobriety, 24 hours at a time.

Just show up. Don't get too far down the road. What grief taught, me was work with the end in mind because during those 75 nights at those hospitals when laura slept i went to everyone's room on the oncology floor i talked to the families for perspective because we're all here together i swear the oncology floor is the only place where equality exists in this entire world doesn't matter if you have money it doesn't matter your age doesn't matter your race everybody's fighting for the only currency that matters and that's time

And I would get to know these people and listen to their lives. What are good memories? What do you regret? And you start looking at the regrets. So many similarities. More time with their kids, taking the trip, betting on themselves, you know? And if you work, if you live your life with the end in mind, knowing that you're going to have regrets. But work it backwards.

What do I not want to regret? And stop measuring yourself in milestones and start measuring them in, in, in, you know, moments. It's really beautiful. Yeah. I literally was visualizing you in the oncology department making the rounds. Yeah, I mean, it's a really profound man. Yeah, and it's simple too. Even how you care yourself now that you have such a resilience and a strength about you that I think is really powerful. But of course, you're human and have had those ups and downs. And obviously post-Lora and kind of navigating, taking pictures down. And you mentioned something that I feel hardcore is that that year after.

I said this after my brother passed, like people brought food to the house. People were texting me and calling. So many casserole. Dude, lasagna is for days. Who eats that many lasagna? I hear garlic bread for days. Yeah, trades.

Which was amazing, but after three months, started to fall off. Yeah. And I experienced something recently, and I'll just call it out on Summerhouse. This past summer, my brother's anniversary of his passing falls throughout the summer,

usually with filming. Kyle Cook be my best friend. You know, I told him, he was the first person I told when I got the call. I got the call. I went upstairs and told him what happened. Wow, dude. However, over the last couple of years since he's been gone on that anniversary, I kind of expect Kyle to reach out. However, this past year he didn't, and I had like this weird feeling about it all, but it wasn't, I've needed to learn how to like, that shouldn't it define

that day if Kyle does reach out or not. He's got his own shit going on. He has a lot on his plate. And if anything, he's shown up for me in so many other ways. Yeah. But I had this weird feeling about him not reaching out. And it was five years after that. after my brother's gone. Yeah. Five years. He'd reached out every other year before that.

Right. But even five years later, it's like it, I felt like weird about this. How did you make sense? Or are you still making sense? No, I made sense. But now where I, honestly, if I back up a little bit, yeah. He's shown up for me in so many other ways that aren't on that day that I forgot about.

So gratitude and turning it over to giving him some grace. He was going through a lot of shit. Yeah. Which also spoke to why he didn't reach out. Yeah, it's not that he doesn't care. Yeah, he doesn't owe me anything. But it was a really good learning experience for me. in grief of you can't expect people to remember.

One of the things I'm most interested in talking to you about because there's not too many people that have experiences both is that I believe, and I don't think this has talked about enough, is that grief and the pathway to sobriety are so similar. You're right. When Laura passed away, I lost my identity. I lost this woman that I loved so much that I would indulge in her my entire life.

and then all of a sudden, I can't have it anymore. It's not for me anymore. Who am I? What's my social circle like? Now that I'm the third chair at the table, everything gets redefined in grief. Most people, when you tell them you're sober early on, they're like, geez, you must have fallen on.

You're like, it couldn't have been a healthy life choice. It's misunderstood. And everybody, this is like the sad thing. to be the buzzkill here, but everyone is going to know somebody that dies. And everyone's going to have to go through that grieving cycle of making terms with it. And yet it's so incredibly taboo. I think grief and the pathway to sobriety has so many similarities to it that I'm interested in exploring that more, especially from somebody else that has gone through it. I don't think I could ever process my brother passing without getting sober. Yeah. I was suicidal at some point. It's because of the pain and the

sadness that I was feeling. Resentment. Anger and resentment. And then what happened is I would drink and do cocaine. Yeah. Guess what that did? Well, those go hand in hand. That was perfect.

Yeah. But until it wasn't. And I found myself spiraling even more and getting even more angry and digging myself even right into a deeper. And I had this revelation, which didn't, it didn't clock until later on, but I saw my brother's daughter at the funeral. Oh, wow. My niece.

Kids. Three kids. Yikes. Vera, who I love it in the door. She looks like. us. Yeah. And I saw her at the funeral. I'm like, that's what this is. Like our legacy, our family. Right. She's a woman. She's going to hopefully have children some point and carry on our, but she's basically my brother. Yeah. You know, and us. And it reminded me of like, what do I

stand for in this world? What is, what is my meaning? Right. It's my purpose. I didn't immediately clock that then, but then when I got sober, I'm like, ah. Grief will show you who you actually are. I want to kind of get into, I mean, obviously the grief of it all, but like, actually someone downstairs said this to me earlier today. Yeah. They went through a big breakup, which felt like a big grief and like a loss. How was it like she had family and friends and like. Yeah.

You probably just show up for that family. Yeah. Her family is in Michigan. And Laura was an only child. Got it. So before Laura passed, I was, I made a promise. Promises mean something, man. Like if you make it, you, it becomes your law.

Yeah. And I always told her they will always be a part of our life. And they come in every week, every two weeks to see James. They've got an amazing relationship. But I will say it wasn't always easy. I got a lot of judgment from their side of the family when I went on The Bachelorette. And it was like all these people just put me on this pedestal when I was a caregiver. They loved the widowed, martyred dad and got so much support for that.

But then the second I started doing things for myself, the second I started to feel better and improving, that support went away, man. Interesting. And it just felt so difficult because I'm a people pleaser at heart. Hardcore. I carry the weight of everybody's emotions. I want people to love me. I want them to feel welcome.

Like, you're always invited at the table. And the fact that I felt like people who knew how I showed up were kicking me as I was trying to rebuild was just a different level of messed up. No, that's really hard. And I got resentment from that. For sure. Which is the worst kind of feeling. Did you have someone like as an example like I would pray to my brother. Yeah.

Kind of get guidance. Like what does he think of all this? And you said it at the beginning of this conversation kind of like, my brother wants me to have fun. Yeah. My brother wanted me to not miss opportunities. He's so proud of you right now, man. For real. And it took me some time to accept that.

But I do trust that my brother, a lot of what I'm doing, the path I'm on, he's right here guiding it. 100%. When you were about to make that decision for The Bachelor, did you pray? How did that? Was there a final person you needed to go, I got the blessing and I'm good? Or you just had Laura, you and your conviction that this is what? I mean, I talked to Laura's family about it. That must have been a tough conversation.

I've had nothing but tough conversations. You're impressed. Last week alone. I just wanted to do something for me. And I didn't know where it was going to lead. And I think that's the point. It was like an adventure almost. Yeah, man.

I knew where I was going to be if I didn't do anything. And I didn't like that. And especially since I wasn't even pursuing reality TV, like it just kind of fell out of nowhere. I'm like, is Laura telling me to like do this? Was there any signs that you picked up from her at all? Well, it's interesting. I mean, I should have brought this up earlier. But she watched the show with her girlfriends all the time.

And she used to say, you'd be so good on this show. Like we should, she actually said this. She goes, we should get like a fake divorce. You can go on there, see how far you can get. She manifested this. I swear those words were in there. And I actually went back and forth, said no, a bunch of times, then came back. Because I was worried that they were going to, I don't know, kind of sensationalize.

Sensationalize the whole thing. I thought, you know, are they going to get James involved? He didn't choose this. And it was like, I didn't want it to be that. I just wanted to get out of my house during COVID and go on it. adventure. It was really that simple. So you go. You do it. Yeah, I go. You do the damn thing. Yeah, I do the damn thing. Now, did you have any preconceived notions of what it was going to be and then ultimately what it turned out to be? I had different or accurate? Your first season, you get on

a set. You're like, what is this? My first day, I was like, what the fuck? This is the Truman Show. Yes. It's the Truman Show. Yeah, I'm sure you guys are even probably more so. Yeah, we definitely are. You get miced up and then you're tracked for 24 hours each and every day. Like, there would be drama going on. I'm like, what are they talking about? Then I learn about it. I'm like, this is like simple. That's not drama at all. Like, that's like easy shit.

Dude, you have any idea what I'm dealing with back at fucking home? Dude, producers used to separate me from the people with drama because I was always trying to like put out fires. Like I was treating them like friends. Like, hey man, like just to talk it out. And the producer are like, this doesn't make of her good TV. Like, please go away. Unbelievable.

Yeah, move Michael to another room. You're actually showing up to like help these situations. And you're actually doing the show a disservice because you're not approaching it in a way. that every other guy probably. Yeah, and I understand the producer's point of view. I mean, they want to make exciting television. But I was just not schooled in how the whole thing works and interviews. You know how interviews they want you to like speak in the present?

Yeah. When it already happened. I still have the hardest time with that. It's a hard exercise. I still fuck it up. Walking into the room. Yeah, so I walk in. Yeah, so I walk in.

It's like something I think about when you're back to The Bachelor a little bit, just like you're on this, you know, dating show. Right. You know, about romance and drama. Yeah. But of course, you've been through a real thing. How did you feel about your ability to talk about your story? Like, was it done a service?

Yeah, I mean, they really allowed me to talk about it. And I was okay with that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's just where I've been and the life stage that I'm at. Being on the show talking about it, it's allowed me to create my community. It's allowed me to be able to learn from other people. that have been grieving to be able to give support, not answers, support. Because everybody has to traverse this wilderness their own way.

What goes to my head, and I think is really beautiful, is Laura is helping other people. Yeah. You're helping other people. Yes. Your son James. Thank you. We'll be helping other people because you guys are kind of setting. Well, first of all, a story that's important to be told, and it's been told on a very

large platform. But I think for ultimate, like, that piece of mind in your head knowing that this story also is going to resonate with other folks who don't necessarily see that story. story represented in a way. And that's beautiful. And I felt like that with my brother at times, but it's still, there's like that weird, like I want them back to not do that, right? Yeah. Oh, 100%. And this is one of the things I admire about you is you've actually created purpose around this. I'm not sure if it's a survival mechanism because it might just be. But it's okay. Two things can be true. I love that. Yeah. Two things can be true at the same time. We may be doing it because you can't go

through pain without purpose and it allows us to make sense of it. But the truth is, is that what you're doing is incredibly important. That's why I've been so excited to meet you because not everybody in the reality world chooses the path of purpose. And that's okay too. Yeah. But you're really making an impact. And it's tough to put yourself out there. Well, it feels like almost like my obligation. Yeah. Doesn't it? I've been afforded a lot of opportunities. I've been very privileged, very lucky. Have I worked hard? Yes. But I just felt like a deepest sense. of like I need to help others, but in a weirdest way, it helps me. Yeah.

Have you felt like that service component of helping others? Like, is it really, is it helped you heal more? Or no? I mean, because I have moments where I'm sometimes like. I got a big opinion about this. Topic of mental health, such an important topic. It was something that was not around when we were growing up. Not at all.

The mental health conversation from kids that were born 85 or before was you're fucked up. Oh, yeah. Oh, you went to therapy today. You're fucked up, man. Oh, 100%. Go to the other table. Psycho. Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. He's the crazy kid. Yeah. But, you know, there's so much talk about mental health. There is so much access to therapy, even though there's not enough. I feel like the walls are coming down around seeking help, especially for men, too. Yeah, the men conversation is getting better. But here's the thing.

Statistics show loneliness, depression, all time high. So correlation here. You got more access to health care. You got more people talking about it, and yet we're lonely and depressed. Our tools aren't working. That's horrible performance. And what I think is missing out of most people's lives is serving others. When you put yourself at the center of your day, all of your thoughts are magnified.

Nothing's going to be perfect in your life. Say you live the most perfect life and only 10% of your life is out of balance. That 10% is going to feel like 100%. Because you have too much time to sit with that. A lot of people doing the work on themselves hit a wall that they can't explain. They're sober, they're in therapy, they're putting in the effort, but there's still a thought that won't quit. What if I'm fundamentally broken and no amount of work will fix me? What if I can't trust my own mind?

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Americans. All their licensed therapists specialize in ERP therapy and will help you learn to take the power away from intrusive thoughts in live face-to-face virtual sessions. They also provide support between sessions when you need it the most, so you're never facing OCD alone. If any of this sounds familiar, visit nocd.com to book a free 15-minute call. That's nocd.com. This episode is brought to you by L'OREL Group. Beauty is a powerful force that moves us. That's why L'Oreal Group has built a business that is inclusive at its heart with 100% of its brands, championing diversity.

With 25,000 professional opportunities for people under 30 worldwide, and 54% of leading positions held by women. Diversity is a strength that helps L'Oreal group create the best beauty products for all people. Visit lorail.com to learn more. I want to get into like the parenting of it all. Yeah. You know, and I think you said a few things just like being a single dad, widowed parent, all that, first time dad. Like you had to take on a lot, obviously. Did so much. And I can't imagine just like, am I fucking this up? Am I doing it right? Yes. Did you have like a mentor dad that kind of helped? Did you read the books? Like what did you do? I made the decision that this child will be loved.

And that guided all of my decisions. Do you feel like the responsibility to tell your wife's story so James can have some semblance of memories? Because his memories probably aren't much. Well, that's the thing is there's a balance. And this is my own opinion. Like I never want people to think that they're doing something wrong if they're in this position. This is my own opinion, just knowing my son. I mean, she passed when he was two years old.

And so he's not going to have those memories. So me constantly bringing her up being like, remember, do you remember? That could make him feel guilty that he doesn't remember. And so instead, what I do is he'll laugh just like her. I mean, nature versus nurture. Your son's daughters probably remind you. Oh, my God. Nature is undefeated.

She does things. I'm like, that's my brother. Right. Like literally my brother. Right. I mean, James is like a straight A student with a crazy IQ. That was her, not me. Wow. Like the way he laughs, even his little anxieties and mannerisms, I have none.

Like, I'm not an anxious person. Laura was a train wreck with these things. It's all in him. So, like, we are going to screw up. And it's just really about showing up. Just trying to make sure that you can create that safe space for them to just, I don't know, be relatable. How old is James now?

He's going to be 10 in September. Wow. So have those conversations, they've obviously evolved as he's become more capable of talking, I would imagine. Yeah, I mean, I got to say I didn't really know early on how to breach the tough conversations. I think most parents, they're trying to shelter their kids from these tough things that even adults don't really understand. Sure.

And the truth is, is that kids can handle it. it's us that really complicate things. The kids are super fine. Yeah, we're the ones that act like a kid. Yeah, I remember, like, I was driving with James pouring my heart out, worried so much when I started telling him that I was dating again, so worried. And I was like, sweating about it, reading all these things.

We get in the car. I'm like, okay, how do I start this conversation, like, with a good, with a good opener. And so I start, like, pouring my heart out to him while I'm driving. in. I'm like, James, I'm going to be, you know, dating again. He's just in the back. He goes, okay. That was it. I built it up in my head. But you built this whole narrative in your head. Yeah, that it was going to be this crazy thing. And he's just like, all right, good luck out there. One question that came to mind. Do you have the pictures back up? Yeah, I mean, I'm building a

beautiful new life with my new girlfriend. But shout out to your girlfriend. Hey, shout out Jade. And how long have you guys been together now? About two years. Amazing. Yeah. So she came into your life. Can you talk about how that all unfolded? And I think people are curious, I would imagine that people are going to watch this are, there's going to be widows who watch this, there's going to be people who have someone they loved and they have lost. Yeah. But then restarting. Yeah. Or starting over. Yeah. And he could even be a breakup. That's grief in a way too. But like, can you talk about that restarting of being open to relationship or a romance?

I mean, even when you're on The Bachelor, were you really ready for a romance? I would say this. If you watch The Bachelor and one of the big lines is, are you here for the right reasons? Yeah. Are you ready to find love? Are you here for love? Who's ready to find love? Who's ready to find love. You know? Like, if the person's right? Yeah. I mean, that's going to take some time. I think the people that go on the show and that say, I ain't leaving here until I'm married. I think that's a red flag, dude. Of course. Yeah, they're like, it's a prize. It's a contest. Yeah, I'm going to win this thing. Chasing so hard for something. It almost feels like it takes it. It doesn't happen naturally. Exactly. So you walked away from The Bachelor without any kind of romance

for real, or I mean, maybe a little bit. Yeah. Well, on Paradise, I left with a girlfriend. Yeah. It didn't work out. She's engaged now. I'm happy. It's a beautiful thing. A good experience. Yeah, 100%. I would say one of the things when I was on The Bachelor that really got to me was I would talk about grief and I talk about Laura and I would talk about where I am openly and honestly. And comments were always, he's never going to get over his dead wife, they would say. I'm like, wow, that's real insensitive. It's got me better way to talk about it. But here's the thing. Whatever. Let those trolls be trolls. If you're going through this, just not. You do not have to be healed to begin life again.

Like the clock is ticking. That's one thing grief taught me. If you talk to anybody on that's fighting for time, what are we wasting it on? You're never ready for the greatest thing to happen in your life. I asked my dad, he's like, right when James was getting born, I'm like, I don't think I'm ready to be a father. He's like, if people really thought about all it took to have a kid, there'd be no one on this planet. Yeah. You have to just dive in and that takes like so much courage.

And it's the same thing with love and building again. It's all uncomfortable, trust me. Especially doing it on TV, especially like I remember going on 10 first dates on Hinge. Like I wasn't trying to find my wife. I was trying to figure out what's it going to feel like to drive that car to meet someone that's not her? What's it going to feel like when I tell an inside joke that this. new person doesn't know anymore. What I found out was it was never as bad as it was in my head. Always.

And so it's little steps, little steps, little steps. So like little small wins, putting yourself out there going on a date. Experience. Experience. So then you meet Jade. She ended up reaching out to me just because she, we had a lot of similar life experience going on. And we just developed a long distance relationship, like just fun. And then it was after my last breakup, that friendship just started blossoming. It was almost like in the beginning it was we were the right people wrong time to waiting long enough for it to be right people right time. But you were able to build that foundation of a friendship and trust. Yeah, in a nice natural way. Something I think about when

I started dating again after my brother and or I went through a pretty big breakup. I was engaged. Yeah. But I like trauma dump. Yeah. I'm like the first date. It's like well my brother's passed away. I'm sober now. I went through a huge public. That's how we do it, though. Yeah. Is there anything you can share with, like, how to not do that? No, I can't. I will tell you, this is so funny, because, again, we're the same age. I was with Laura for 16 years. I thought I missed the whole online dating thing. I thought I missed that whole thing. You missed, like, an entire window of, like, a whole thing. Oh, a whole thing. I ended up jumping on, it was Hinger Bubble. And my profile, oh, my God. It was bio, a recently widowed father looking to get back on his feet again. Wow. That was my bio. Oh my God. Like

talk about damaged goods here. And I just wanted to put it out there. Yeah, you just wanted people to know. Because it's like, here's who I am. I'm not hiding my cards. Like, it's not going to be an easy ride. But if it works out, I'll show up for you. Like, it'll be good. There's something of question I forgot to touch on, which is I didn't, I didn't see the season you were on. Or maybe it was the Bachelor in Paradise part of it. But you left after being on for a little bit. Yeah. Seven weeks? Mm-hmm. Can you talk about that?

That was a, that was a bachelor at. Bachelor, okay. Yeah, so. So were you just feeling it? Didn't, what happened? Can you talk through it? Well, what ended up happening was when I first went on the show, you don't know how long you're going to be on there.

You could be night one and it could be like three days and come on home. And I made it far. Like, Katie and I had a really cool connection. And I made it to top four. But what people don't know is that's hometowns. And in filming terms, that's like another two weeks. And my son's four. I had already been gone for way too long.

And the producers were allowing me to talk to him. But it got to the point where he's just like... Where's that? Yeah. Lost his mom. And now dad's gone. And it's like, it's not worth it. So it was a really easy decision for me to make.

So you just tell the producers like, hey. Oh, yeah. And they, yeah, they were super cool with it. Has that presented any... I mean, you're in an unhappy relationship. But when you were dating, just having a... a child in general, you know, and being a single dad like that. Did that present any kind of, when you would tell someone, they're like, oh.

This may sound bad, but I believe it's the truth. And it's unfair. Is I think a widowed father with kids is more attractive to women than a single mom with kids is to men. And that is something so screwed up. It's fucked up. Because I talk to so many people in the wilderness. widowing community. And it's like, their experience is not mine. And there should be a national holiday for single parents, man, because they give up everything. Like, you want to ride or die,

find yourself a single parent because they know real work, real sacrifice, showing up. And it's not fair how that imbalanced. So it never really played a big role in my dating. The perception almost of a single mother to a male is like, oh. Right. Whereas the husband who's widowed, you know, it's like hot. Yeah. It's just fucked up to even say that word. Well, no. It's not as much hot as it is proven.

Yeah. And it's stability. And those are some things that, you know, I think many women crave in men is the ability to show up. Sure. To show up, not just talk about love, but being able to give it in a way that makes sense and show up for them and care about a child on a very intimate level and a nurturing motherly level. Sure. That gets lost. So I think it's just a different priority set that they value.

Now that you have your business, St. James, therapeutics. I love that you're honoring, you know, and using the name again. Yes, sir. Was that on your track or on your vision board before Laura? No. 2017, she got diagnosed with breast cancer, triple negative breast cancer. And when you undergo chemotherapy, there's a common side effect called hand in foot syndrome. Look it up. It is brutal. your hands and feet, the skin on it basically burn off. Laura couldn't unlock her iPhone because her fingerprints were gone. I mean, that's how bad it is. And so so many patients have to choose between staying on their chemo, choosing life,

or dose reducing and discontinuing the product and getting their hands and feedback. So we were getting treatment at the Cleveland Clinic, which is renowned. Yeah, great system. And there's nothing for this. And so Laura and I built a lab in our basement and we started concocting a bunch of different things. It was never meant to be a business. It was really just meant for her to have relief during this time. She could hold James, unlock her phone, like live a quality of life.

Yeah. So you were just building stuff to only support her needs. Yeah. And then we started sending it out to 50 people. And what we're hoping to do at St. James is be able to give people an option to be able to have dignity. and quality of life, be able to use their hands and feet, simple things that we take for granted. And, you know, that was Laura's dream, too.

Like, Laura and I created this together, and after she passed, she wanted it to continue. I made a promise, man. And it's like, I almost see this thing through. And what's so beautiful is through your, through her story, through your creativity and passion and hard work, Laura is literally helping, saving, supporting. Oh, my God.

There's so many times I thought this project was going to, two bottom out. And then, you know, the angels we meet along the way. It's just beautiful because that's, I mean, in a totally different way, not to make this at all. It's just like what I tried to build was soft bar and kind of this whole world was because of my brother, you know, and having that family history and trying to break our family, not stigma, but break the family traditions. Yeah. And there's a lot of mental illness. There's a lot of alcoholism. But then to go through what we went through, but then to kind of find this line or this seed, it's like mind-boggling sometimes. It is. Like what you just, you guys have basically invented a product.

Yeah. Oh, that could have multiple applications. We've actually had it on radiation burns. Wow. We had 100% response rate on that. I love hearing this stuff, man. Yeah. It's like you're taking your difficult tragedy and turning into passion and purpose. Yeah. And like there's just so much I am inspired by hearing that. Oh, thank you. I love it, man. I want to talk about your sobriety. Yeah. I know you've opened up recently on social, which I saw the post, which was I think you were 60 days at that moment. Right, right. Anytime I see someone get really vulnerable or open up on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, I'm like drawn. And I love seeing that. And I'll, Zach Clark, I'll see like other people. Eminem, for example, the rapper. Celebrated. I forget how many years, 10 years, clean and sober. Before I got to it, Zach had liked it and, like, commented. And I just love seeing those stories, even 10 days. Sure. Oh, every day. A friend of mine, Chrissy Teigen also shouted me out on her social about some of her sobriety. And it was 45 days. That's what people need to. But that's what people need to say. see is that beginning part.

Can you talk about that decision to stop those 60 days and then where you are now? Yeah. I mean, for me, it really was about supporting Jade. And Jade's open about talking about this. And she's so proud of it. So she made the decision that it was best for her about five months ago. And we had the conversation. I realized there's no way I could support you the way I need to support you.

if I'm out here drinking wine at dinner. So I decided to just jump in with her. Early on, it was just like, okay, now what do I do now that I can't drink at bars and go golfing and chug a case? But the quality of life is wonderful. But being able to be on the same vibration as your partner is really powerful. I mean, I get asked a lot about, you know, dating someone sober, dating someone that's still drinks. What I've always said is I need someone that's on a similar vibration. They could have some wine or drinks, as long as they have a healthy relationship.

But I think it's beautiful, like, given, you know, what you've been through, but also you're showing up for her and trying to support. But have you learned anything for your own self in this exercise that you didn't realize would have happened? Like, I'll even go to the AA meetings with her. Hell yeah. I swear, whoever's listening, that's what church is supposed to be. Thank you. The 12 steps could be applied for anybody in their daily life. Anyone.

It's literally what guides you. Do you feel like after all the stuff you've been through that you crave that level of depth now? that like you have no space for surface level of conversation i just got up on my seat because when i hear the depth word yeah that's why i want to dive into the deep end yeah whatever you got yeah and i always am willing and able to like go there and i love the vulnerability and the authentic dark shit yes but if you can wrap your arms around it Zach and i laugh a lot about our old shit yeah six years ago i wasn't i'd be like oh my god i did you know now i'm like embrace it embrace it. As far as James, we're kind of just

want to get to, we're kind of wrapping up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A couple last things. Have you tied a conversation all about your reality TV life? Yeah, he knows all about it. He hates the show. Okay, because I think about how I'm going to talk to if I have a family. I want to. But I've got five seasons of Summer House, which are pretty rough. You got a library, pal. I'm lucky because when I went on the show, James was alive. So everything I did on TV, I was thinking about how you had him in mind, would age. Sure.

So it kept me for the most part in line. Yeah, I didn't go nuts. And so, yeah, I don't know how that's going to look, but it's our experience. Sorry, pal. I know. I asked Mike the situation who was on last week about his conversations with his kids. Oh, yeah, he's got a library. Yeah, oh, my God.

He's been through tons of shit. The alcohol conversation. I mean, is that something you talk about with James currently? Just being sober? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he just knows we don't drink and he's cool with that. The clarity is the gift. You know, when I look back at grief, I would say the gift of grief.

was always the fact that, you know, I loved Laura so much that if grief is what she gave me after she left, then I'm going to hold that. And I'm going to honor it. And I'm going to love that pain too. Well, I think the sobriety clarity that you get sometimes also like I get emotional. Yeah. You mentioned something earlier when you cry, you're a lot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it took me some time to appreciate that in my sobriety, which is these emotions that I get. Well, I feel like you're really doing a great job of preparing your son for a variety of things and given your story and Laura's and everything you guys have been through. But just applaud you for how you're navigating. And honestly, like I've said this to some of the other dads we've had on the show.

You know, I think you're setting an amazing example for what men and fathers should try to operate. There's a lot of problematic guys out there. I've been one before. But the way you're going about it as a just really beautiful. And the funny thing is, I still have no idea what I'm doing. I'm serious. Like anything I'm saying here, I do not have the answer. I'm just telling you what I've done. I say it with confidence. Like there are certain like traits. Like women are much better than men at raising kids.

I'm just going to say that. I believe that. There's a nurturing element to a mother that is really difficult for a father to provide. Fathers can do it. But you have to rewire a little bit. There's the kiss the boo-boo then rub some dirt on it simultaneously. because we were raised by dads that rub the dirt. That's all we know.

Tire shoe tighter. That's all we know. It's not a big deal. You know, quit crying. I had to learn all of that stuff all over again. So now I'm like super soft. I'm baking cookies, dude. Like, welcome home, honey.

Welcome home, honey. I'm super soft. Soft is strong. It is. There's this amazing Chinese proverb. It's like over time, water is softer than stone. Oh, yeah. But over time, water wins.

Oh, yeah. Be water, Bruce Lee, man. Yes. You water. Yep. So softness is strength. It really is. And people shouldn't beat themselves up if they don't have the tools, but there is time to learn it and begin that uncomfortable step.

Sometimes you got to get thrown into it. Sometimes it's a choice. Yeah. But either way, like you figure out your, figure out your path. I love it, man. Yeah. What's giving you more life right now? Oh, geez, more life.

I would say hope. Hope is something I haven't. What's the opposite of hope? Despair. Yeah. So you'd rather lean here. Yeah. I think hope is necessary in life. Everything that we do is based on hope that one day, if we do this,

things will get better. Yeah, I'm in this era of just enjoying the payoff of the hope that I had. Well, how can people access more about your business, your book? I wrote a book for James, but it wasn't supposed to be a book. It's seven stories that happen in nature. And these are all the bedtime stories that I told James in order to talk about bigger issues. So one of the big premises of the book, it's called Where the Wild Heart grows, is that we are always lost in the wilderness of our own life, from who we are right now into our becoming. And the story really tracks our seasons that we go through. And if we can name those seasons for what they are, then, we understand that they're going to pass,

that there's a cycle that you've been there before. But leaning on wilderness, nature, like that's a great draw for our life. Yeah. Like, seasons change. Things grow. They brown and they get green again. Yes.

And no, a tree knows that. Who's better to teach us about seasons than nature? Yeah, for especially young people and even adult. It really helped us navigate a lot of different conversations. And what I found out when I was writing this thing is it was the words I needed to hear. Somehow over the years we've complicated everything. Should I text after three days? You know, should I make a call?

I don't even know. I don't even know. I never made it that far. But it's like less rules, more open, honest conversations. And all of these meaningful things are delivered in children's form, but very absorbable for adults. And I think that's what's the adult portion of this. You know, it's almost like, because we all have to get in touch with our inner child. Yes, we lose it along the way.

And I've gotten really close back to that inner child as I got more sober and just more comfortable in accepting that child. Yeah. But I like, I remember myself as a child and I'm like, wait, I was sober back then. Yeah. I was happy as hell. When did things get so serious? Yeah.

So I've really done a lot of like reminding myself of that five, six year old Carl. Yeah. He was happy, running around outside, friendly. I remember those. I had a lemonade stand in the front yard. Yeah. make any money but I didn't care yeah right I know passing out free cups yeah it basically was preparing you for this exactly yeah what's what's funny is I don't sell lemonade but

version people might say I sell lemonade here yeah but I turned lemons into lemonade there we go that's what I should say I like that that's really good I appreciate you being here you too man you too man thanks for having me on it's just so cool that you've turned your life into purpose and giving back and also sharing that out loud yeah I think men especially and women need to see that story told. So I'm just honored you to you came up. And congrats to you, man. Thank you. Thanks for being here. All right. Thanks, brother. Thank you, man. Thank you guys for being here. Give it up for Michael. He's just an incredible guy. I'm honored you came in. Oh, thank you. Check us out next time here at More Life here at Softbar in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Akron stand up. Appreciate you guys.

Cheers. Thank you guys for joining us on More Life. Watch or listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And please like, review, subscribe. It really helps us out. More Life is produced by Annie Siegel and executive produced by Adam Reynolds of denim pictures. This episode was directed by Annie Siegel, edited by Mike U.R.T and recorded at Soft Bar Studios in Brooklyn, New York. More Life is a production of Sony music entertainment. From Sony, our executive producers are Chris Skinner and Joanna Clay. Original music by Function Adams. Set designed by Michael Ignacio. Publicity by Caitlin Healy. Additional support from Abby Sharp.

Special thanks to Allison Shano and Joanna Orland. New episodes drop every Tuesday. We'll see you next time.