More Money Podcast - 007 DIY Investing - Barry Choi, Blogger at Money We Have

Episode Date: July 1, 2015

Barry Choi, from the investing and travel blog Money We Have, and I talk about DIY investing through index funds and using the Couch Potato method. Long episode description: If you’ve been a reader of my blog throughout these 3 and half years, then you already know that I am by far no expert when it comes to investing. Not for lack of desire, but I guess when it comes to personal finance I just stick to what I’m comfortable with — saving and budgeting. That being said, I know that in order to continue to increase my net worth, I need to do a better job of investing. Right now, I’m justing investing in mutual funds in my RRSP and TFSA, but I definitely want to diversify in the future. That’s where Barry Choi comes in. Barry has been a DIY investor for a number of years and has been writing about his experience on his blog Money We Have as well. Since I really wanted to learn more about his investing strategies, I thought he would be the perfect podcast guest for this episode. We talk about a lot of topics, including how to get started as a DIY investor and how to implement the Couch Potato method of investing, so make sure you check out some of these handy resources Barry mentioned on the show below. As an added bonus, I am also giving away a cop of John Robertson’s investing for beginners book The Value of Simple: A Practical Guide to Taking the Complexity Out of Investing. You may already know John from his blog Holy Potato, but Barry highly praised this book (and gave me a copy to check out), so I’m super pumped to be giving one of you lucky winners a copy too! Resources Barry mentioned: Stop Over-thinking Your Money!: The Five Simple Rules Of Financial Success by Preet Banerjee Wealthing Like Rabbits: An Original Introduction to Personal Finance by Robert Brown The Wealthy Barber Returns by David Chilton Canadian Couch Potato Shownotes: jessicamoorhouse.com/7 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, and welcome to Episode 7 of Mo Money, Mo Houses. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse, and today I am very excited to kind of continue the conversation I had last week in Episode 6. Last week, I talked to Bridget from the personal finance blog, Money After Graduation, and besides talking about switching careers and going back to school, we also talked about investing in the stock market. So today I'm going to be talking to Barry Choi from the personal finance blog, Money We Have, about do-it-yourself investing, which includes index investing and using the couch potato strategy. So we're going to be getting into all of that.

One thing I'm going to hint at right now to kind of entice you to listen to this entire episode is I am going to be doing a special giveaway I am very excited about. So stay tuned until the end of the episode to find out more details about what I'm giving away and how you can enter to win. So welcome to the program, Barry. Thanks for having me. So let's start from the beginning. So how did you get interested in money and personal finance and all of that stuff? It comes from a few different directions. First, I got lucky. My parents, they taught me to save early. They were immigrants. They came to Canada. Obviously, they saved before they bought anything. So as soon as I got my. My parents, they taught me to save early. They were immigrants. They came to Canada. Obviously, they saved before they bought anything. So as soon as I got my first job, they encouraged me to open up an RRSP with the bank, mutual funds.

And that's kind of exactly what I did. That's awesome. Yeah, I was talking about 18, 19. Wow. And it sounds really weird because a lot of that, you know, at that age, you're thinking about spam. I wasn't exactly making a lot. But, you know, that being said, if you can put $25 a month, it really does go a long way. And it's just kind of automatic to an extent. You kind of get into that mindset. If you

can get into the mindset really early, it just carries forward. Exactly. If you create that habit, then it becomes second nature for sure. So you're always kind of good with your money, it seems like what made you uh decide to start a personal finance blog do you just have so much knowledge that you wanted to share with people or it's a little complicated it was almost by accident yeah you know i just talked about how i was always good with money but at the same time the blog kind of started because i made mistakes with my money and i don't want anyone to make the same mistakes that I made. What kind of mistakes are you talking about? The biggest mistake was, it's not

really a mistake, it's almost like a learning lesson. So let's be clear about that. You kind of need to learn from your mistakes. Absolutely. So originally, as I mentioned, I started with mutual funds with a bank and eventually I switched to investment advisor because I wasn't really happy with the bank's service. You know, you step in, they tell you to buy a mutual fund and you won't hear from them for a year and in your own, it's like, oh, maybe I should follow up. And you do the following up, right? Like they don't come calling you. You never hear from them. So I was like, okay, there's got to be a better way. And just by bad timing or maybe good timing, one of my former coworkers became a financial advisor and convinced me to switch over. Again,

it sounds great in theory. Well, yeah, you're like, oh, I trust this person. Why not? What a great idea. Exactly. But again, at the young age, you know, you're talking about mid-20s, you're thinking, oh, this guy's going to take care of me. He's my friend.

He's going to check in. And, you know, I get put into these mutual funds or whatever, and it sounds like a good idea. And I'm like, oh, yeah, this guy's not charging me. And eventually I just started researching a little bit more just generally talking and we're talking about the different firms online message boards and I mentioned that oh yeah I like this firm I'm with they don't charge me anything and a random stranger on this board messaged me and said hey you know what they are charging you you might want to look into it because there's no way they're not

charging you I was like oh you, you know, that's interesting. That's news to me. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of people are stubborn online. They think they're always right. Yeah. But, you know, it made sense because why would anyone do anything for free? Exactly.

They're making money somehow. Exactly. So I looked into the fees and I realized like, oh, wow, I'm being charged a lot. 2.5%. Wow, that's high. I mean, it is on the higher end, but, a lot of people don't realize that's normal. And it doesn't sound like a lot, but over the course of your entire savings life, you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And more importantly, it had back-end fees. They're called deferred sales charges. Okay, what are those? So when you use an investment firm, sometimes the banks also, when you initially invest into mutual funds, they won't charge you a whole lot, like a front end fee. Right. But if you decide to pull out or draw money or exchange firms, they'll charge you back end fees.

And those are the DSC fees. So generally speaking, it's like a seven year range. So at seven years, you know, at the first year it might be 5% and it slowly reduces until it gets to zero. Okay. But the point is, you know, I had told my advisor that, Hey, I might need this money. Maybe it's not best idea. So it should be less risky. Um, but when I found out I was furious, I was like, I could not believe that. They locked you into something that you didn't agree with. You're like, wait a minute. I told a minute I told you uh no yeah it didn't make any sense so like for me I was just like you know it's almost like a epiphany almost like they're telling us like what's going on so I started doing the

research I started reading blogs you know got personal finance books to read and as soon as I understood the bait and this only took like you know 10-20 hours of basic research really not that exactly much of a time you realize like oh God, this guy has not done me any solids. And what's interesting enough, when I started questioning this advisor about it, it almost felt like I knew more about finances than him. Because I go, why are you putting me in something that has this high fees when I told you, you know, I might need the money? And his response was, well, if you're not happy with the returns,

I'll put you in something with more risk. And I was like, that's nothing to do with what I'm asking you. So it was very clear that this guy was kind of looking out for himself morally. Exactly. It was, uh, it was not a good experience, but fortunately, um, I was able to get out and that's when I became a do it yourself investor. And, and, you know, as I mentioned, I was just like, well, I've made a lot of mistakes here and I hope I hope no one else makes these mistakes no kidding yeah I don't get that I think you can help a lot of people with your story so so how long have you been a do-it-yourself investor uh I've it's been about four or five years wait man time goes by so fast um probably a good five years now I I would say just, just before I got

married. So it was probably pushing six now roughly. And so how does one become a do-it-yourself investor? Cause that is something personally that me and my husband are also very interested in doing. We are currently with a bank and we're not exactly happy with the service and our returns. And we're like, you with the service and our returns. And we're like, you know, I bet, honestly, we could probably do this better ourselves. But where would I start? Because I am one of those people where I don't know a lot about investments. And that does my husband.

We've read some books and some blogs and stuff. But I think just the whole idea of doing it on your own and being completely responsible for all of your investments is a scary thing. And so it's where, what's the first step? The first step for me is always to just look at your individual situations. Like you've established you want to learn more. So as you mentioned, you want to read a few personal finance books to be honest. There's a lot of good ones out there. A lot of people get turned off because they're very technical.

Right. What kind of books would you suggest as like one or two? I've actually got two great books I would recommend right off the bat. Preet Banerjee's got a great book, Stop Overthinking Your Money. It's a good introduction. It's a great book, actually, yeah. Robert Brown also did Wealth and Like Rabbits. It's more of a pop cultural references to money. And a lot of people have heard of Wealthy Barber Returns by David Chilton.

So those are the three very basic books. And again, people get intimidated because they're technical, but these three books, they're not. They're not. They're just gateway books. Exactly. And the nice thing about it, they kind of lead you into it if you want to learn more because investing is such a big thing, right?

After that, you've got to understand that you can do it yourself. A lot of people are so confused of what an RRSP is. People think you buy an RRSP. They don't realize that it's a savings vehicle and you can invest in anything you want. You don't need an advisor. So the most basic way of setting it up, if you

want to do it completely yourself, you would need to go through a discount brokerage. Every single major bank has their own wing. So it's easy to set one of those up. But there's virtual ones which are even cheaper. It's really just a preference. And there's a lot of great other resources out there. Tangerine offers a lot of great resources to help you start investing on your own without the aid of a financial aid. They charge you a little bit more than doing it on yourself, but it's still significantly

cheaper than if you were to use an investment advisor. From there, it's simply a matter of just learning. One very popular method of investing for newbies is the couch potato strategy. Right. Do you want to explain a bit about that? Because that's definitely a buzzword I hear a lot. And I'm always like, uh-huh. Because I've heard of the blog before, but I have no clue what the strategy means. What does it mean? So the couch potato strategy kind of sounds like what it is. You're sitting on your couch and you're investing. The idea is once you've got everything set up,

you might only take 10, 20 minutes a year to review your entire portfolio. The basics is you're investing in index funds. For people who aren't familiar with indexes, instead of buying individual stocks, you never know what's going to go up. And advisors who tell you they know what's going to go up, they're lying. No one can predict the future. No one can predict that. So as I mentioned, instead of buying individual ones, you're going to buy a basket of stocks. And that's what an index is. Okay.

So you were talking about hundreds of stocks in one go. Okay. So that's done through an index. You can do it through, there's index mutual funds and there's ETFs, which is a little bit more technical, but it's really not at the same time. So essentially, you're buying the whole market, and there's really just four markets any average Canadian investor needs to buy into. Canadian market, the U.S. market, the international market,

and the Canadian bond market. And those unfamiliar with bonds, it's basically investments that are less risky, more safe. And the other aspect of the couch pedastra is you need to understand your risk tolerance and your asset allocation. So if you're younger, you've got way more time to invest. So that means you can invest in riskier stuff. So if something crashes tomorrow,

you've got 30 years to figure it out. Exactly. You've got plenty of time. But if you're 60, you probably want to have most of your investments in safer stocks. Right. Or safer investments, rather. There's no safe stocks. Yeah.

And then you just, the way it works is every year you rebalance. Right. So you sell some of your good indexes that have been doing really well, and then you buy your lower indexes that haven't been doing so well. So essentially what you do is you're selling high and buying low which is the complete opposite of what normal investors do right they'll chase gains they'll see apples on a tear they'll buy buy buy and they'll see blackberry sell it's a little sell sell sell so they're not really profiting they just end up losing because it's always just that herd mentality and a lot of

people just don't understand you need to do the opposite when investing. And it's very hard to do. We all know that. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So once, I guess, you have that foundational knowledge, which is key, I'm just kind of thinking about myself. Say I want to go the DIY route. How would I go about doing that with, you know, right now all my money is kind of tied up at a bank.

How do I get it out of there and start doing it on my own? Yeah, you want to decide first who you're going to be with. So that could be Tangerine or one of the discount brokerages I discussed. You need to set up those accounts first. And once you've got the accounts set up, you want to have them contact your current bank or whoever your investments are with and request a transfer in kind with your RSPs. Because if you don't't what happens is a lot of people make the mistake of withdrawing the rsps and depositing the new account but you actually

end up paying taxes and you lose that contribution room but a transfer in kind just basically it transfers everything over usually what they'll do is transfer to a similar mutual fund but obviously now that you're doing it yourself you want to to transfer it into cash. Right, okay. So you keep the money, like say I've got some investments in this RRSP, I want to do it myself, say I want to go with Tangerine or whatever, I just like still have that, instead of just taking the money out and putting it into a savings account, I just keep my RRSP, that vehicle, but instead of putting that money into another investment, I make it into

cash? Did I get it right? Technically, it transfers into cash. It just kind of depends on which sometimes they can't technically put in cash. It's a cash sitting in one of your new RSV accounts. Technically, you have two RSVs. A lot of people don't really. You can have 50 if you want.

They're just with different places, so it doesn't matter. Whoever you're with, Tangerine, TD, Bank of Montreal, it's all different. So let's just talk about Tangerine for a little bit. So they have their own line. They're similar to index funds, couch potato style. It's a little bit active managed to the extent where everything's done automatically. So once you've figured out your asset allocation, they've got three different funds that you can choose from. Whichever one fits your profile the best, that's what goes in. So you can make your regular deposits and everything is done automatically. Zero thing.

You don't even need to look once a year. That's nice. The disadvantage is they're charging a little bit more. Right. They're charging you an MER, a management expense ratio, of 1.07%, which is less than half of what you're paying at the bank. Less than that 2.5%, right? Exactly. But if you go to discount brokerage, as I mentioned, you can get even lower, probably

0.4 to 0.5. The best bank to do that is through TD, because they offer their own line of index funds called the TDE series. Right, I've heard a lot about that. Exactly. So if you don't want to get too technical and you want to stick with that, that's a great secondary option. A lot of people, what they actually do is they'll start with Tantrum because they're a little bit intimidated.

And then they graduate themselves to the E-Series. And for myself, I started with E-Series and then I switched to ETFs, which are exchange-traded funds, which is essentially the same thing. But it trades like a stock. So the main difference is when you're buying the mutual funds is there's no fees. So when you buy and sell, you don't pay anything. But with the ETFs, it trades similar to a stock where if I'm buying, I'm going to pay my brokerage an X amount. And when I sell, I pay an X amount. But it's still an index fund overall.

So, of course, people are going to ask, well, why would you do that? Well, the MER is even lower. I'm talking about like 0.1 to 0.2. So I've gotten my fees now to below 0.2. So if you do a basic math, once your portfolio is at least $50,000, even if you're doing four to six trades a year, you're still making more money because your fees are so low. So that's kind of, you just have to do the mental math and it's not that complicated at all. Get groceries delivered across the gta from real canadian superstore with pc express shop online for super prices and super savings try it today and get up to 75 in pc optimum points visit superstore.ca to get

started yeah so i guess another question i have is how much work is it to actually do it yourself like it seems kind of, you know, intimidating. Like once you, I guess, educate yourself and it doesn't seem so scary, like how much time do you have to dedicate to selling and buying and monitoring and making sure it's going the right way? So with Tangerine, you don't have to do anything. Right. Nothing at all. So that's great. When you do it yourself, discount brokerages, I'd argue

the most complicated part is setting up accounts. TD knows that this is a great product, but they're not going to advertise it because they'd rather sell you the advisor funds where they can make more money. So they make it very difficult to sign up. It's not that complicated, but you've got to request a form. You've got to fill it out by hand, mail it in. It's actually ridiculous. But once it's all set up, it's actually not that complicated. And you actually, with the next ones, you don't want to look at your investments every single day.

It's actually better, I'd say no more than twice a year. Okay. As I mentioned, you're going to look, you're going to see how your things, and if you read the Couch Potato website, it's CanadianCouchPotato.com, it just explains. You sell what's doing really well and you buy what ones that aren't doing so so and you only do that like twice a year i do it only once a year now you can kind of casually look because most of the time it's connected to your bank anyways yeah yeah yeah but you know i tell people that you should be looking at your investments as often

as you see your doctor right yeah hopefully you see your doctor once a year uh it's crazy how some people will you know obsess with with their investments every single day. Well, I guess that's one of the things I always kind of assumed like DIY investors did. Like I'm like, are they like at home on a Friday night, like staring at their computer being like, oh my God, my investments. And like, I cannot handle that. Some investors are. Those are the ones who are picking individual stocks or day trade. There's a lot of different.

So index investing is a type of, it's a stock, right? So everyone said, if you just wanted something simple and keep in mind, the whole point of indexing funds is you're going to get the average, right? So the TSX gained 5% last year, you're going to get about 5% roughly minus the fees. And a lot of advisors will say, Hey, you know what? I can do better. Well, that's not necessarily true. And at the same time, there are a lot of good advisors out there, right? But you won't really find them on the retail level at the banks. If you're getting a fee-only advisor or a fee-for-service advisor, someone you're paying real money who comes up with a plan and really looks at your big overall picture,

they offer an incredible amount of value, and they've got the technical training to prove it. So there are a lot of good people out there. So I don't want to brush off advice and leave, but just be aware at the branch level and at investment firms, I'd be a little bit more picky about who you're working with. Yeah, and I think that, I mean, I have personal experience with that. I, you know, originally when I was just, you know, single and on my own,

I did do, I think I did do an index fund with an RSP with, uh, Tangerine back when it was ING direct. And then when me and Josh got married, we merged everything, went to the bank and we met this, uh, advisor guy. We really liked him and I trusted him. And it's one of those things where like, Oh, I trust them. So I feel like he's going to do good things for us. and then he quit or got fired I don't know but we don't have any anymore and our kind of stuff is a it's just doing what it's been set up to do but it's kind of we feel like we're in a bit of a limbo and it's it's just one of those weird things where it's it's a kind of a crazy idea we had all this money we gave it to

this one person that we met we liked and we put all this trust in him. But it does kind of make sense. It's your money. It's your future to kind of put it back into your hands because you're the person that's going to care the most, right? Exactly. That's what I tell people all the time. No one's going to care more about your money than yourself. Absolutely. And at the same time, you know, when you're in a relationship, you put a lot of trust into your partner. And, you know, obviously you want everything to work out well, but at the same time, you need to take the time to learn about your finances, both of you, because anything can happen to anyone at any time.

Specifically, yeah, just like you mentioned, both of you. Because I know, I feel like it was kind of a generational thing back in the day, or parents or grandparents, there was usually one person that dealt with all of the finances, was usually the man or sometimes the woman i think in my family it's my mom does a lot of that and you know i guess it's sort of fine but yeah it's true it's like what if your significant other gets hit by the bus and you have no idea where your money is or what it's doing or you don't understand it so that's why it's so important for yeah and it's not even necessarily about the investment side of things like you know people don't understand it's like like you said one of us can get an accident you might not be able to do this but you know what how's the mortgage being paid exactly so if you have no idea like hopefully

it's automatic but if it's not you gotta do things man you missed one two payments you could lose your home potentially or what happens if how you access that emergency money. Someone's had an accident, you need money quickly, you need to get somewhere where they are. But if you don't even know the passwords to your banking information, that could cause a serious concern. And you know, we're talking about worst case scenarios, like, you know, yeah, you marry someone at the same time, you expect things to do great, but divorce happens.

It's unfortunate. And a lot of women don't realize that. I hate to say it, but traditionally women get the worst end through divorce. They get a lot less. And what women also forget is they live longer than men. So because of that, women actually need to save a little bit more. So a male could potentially save 10%. Well, I'd probably argue you need more than that.

But women need to save a little bit more because they need to make it last a little bit longer it's just statistically speaking you just got to look out for yourself I'm not saying hide money no but no I think it's totally fair to always have yourself in mind I mean it's good to like I mean with me and Josh we have a system where we're kind of together but separate we've got our together money but we also have our individual money but we also know exactly where all the money is like we will sit down once in a while look through all of our accounts and understand you know where the other person's at what our goals are and just kind of you know and you touched on something great there understanding what your goals are a lot of people don't see like everyone's got different views about money

and that's fine when you come into relationship, everyone's going to have the different views. And you can't push your views onto your partner. It's just not fair. It's really just about coming to that understanding of what works for you, what can you live with, and then you're cool. How you manage your budgets, but more importantly, the same thing applies to investing. One person might be an aggressive investor and another person might be a little bit more conservative. And you've got to figure out that medium. And at the same time, you have to look at your own individual situation. One partner might have a defined benefit pension, so they can be more risky, but as someone who works freelance, they might need to be

saving a whole lot more money. They've got to factor in future taxes, come tax time. There's a lot of things to factor in, so you always need to have that open conversation with your partner and just understand where the money's going and how you feel about it. Because the last thing you want is your partner to regret something, and it's just not fair to each other. Exactly, and that's where all the arguments, you know, that's another statistic. Most people get divorced because of money, and I think a lot of it is because they don't communicate about money

and understand what's going on with their finances. So of making a power struggle it should honestly like for us especially in this past i guess two years we've been in toronto it has really brought us together which is crazy but yeah money conversations have brought us closer together because we feel like we're more connected we're a family we're you know working hard making our money so we can support each other as a family and i think lots of people kind our money so we can support each other as a family. And I think lots of people kind of forget that. And again, that's the same with investments. We're looking at investments together, not so much separately,

because we want to make sure our money is growing together so we can reach those future goals, maybe have a family, maybe buy a house, all that stuff. Exactly. And it's important because as long as you guys are on the same page, it doesn't matter what other people think. Everyone else is going to have an outside opinion. Obviously, our parents will always have an opinion on how you should spend your money and what you should do with it. But at the same time, they understand that things are different these days. Absolutely.

I mentioned when my parents came to Canada, they literally just worked, saved up money, and paid for the house in cash. Wow. Maybe that's how low real estate prices in Canada were back then. But imagine any of us trying to do that now or at the same time, you know, my parents still think that you can knock on a door of a company and get a new job instantly. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I've heard that from someone. And you know, it's like you can't really just go into a company and be like, hey, I'd be great at this.

Exactly. And that's just parents. But more importantly, I find a lot of millennials, people in the younger generation, they're constantly comparing themselves with others. They see what others have and they feel like they've earned it. There's a big social movement recently on Twitter saying it's like, don't have a million and people complain. Yeah, I've been seeing that a lot lately.

It's almost a bit silly because they're complaining about, hey, you don't have a million dollars so you can't afford a home. So obviously it was more geared towards Vancouver. But at the same time, you know, they started going, well, I've got a degree. Well, just because you've got a degree or something doesn't give you that automatic right. Yeah, it doesn't mean you, you know, should have a job. Maybe you're a crappy worker. I don't know.

You see, what I'm getting at is a lot of people expect things at the same degree. They expect the fancy car or the big home, not a starter home. They want the nice house right away with the big garden. They want the Mercedes or anything. Everything needs to be brand new. They need to have a fancy vacation every single year. And it's easy for us now because you can get credit so easily. My parents, when they applied for a credit card,

they had to go to the bank and physically apply in person, be on their best behavior and hopefully get it. And at the same time, you know, you look at current interest rates, people are just used to that. So, you know, I just wouldn't concern myself about what other people are thinking. You just need to worry about what you and your partner know. And if you guys come to the decision together, you can't let anyone else judge you for that. And who cares? You you know people are always going to judge you based on what you wear what you buy where you live and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter exactly and i think it's that's one of the things that always kind of irritates me about you know you mentioned that like million dollar thing it's ridiculous to use the current situation as an excuse for like well i, I can't because, well, no, you probably

can afford a house if you are smart with your money, do your research, educate yourself, invest in the right things and just do it. Like that's what kind of drives me super crazy is when people just, yeah, well, I can't because, you know, the economy is crap and, oh, I wish I was born 20 years ago when houses were cheaper it's like yeah well there probably would have been other problems too you know just you've got to take responsibility for yourself and try your best and it'll work itself out and also understand a lot of people when they talk about money they have no clue what they're talking about you know one common argument is saying like you know renting is just throwing money away you know you're paying

someone else's mortgage but at the same time if you do basic math you know, renting is just throwing money away. You know, you're paying someone else's mortgage, but at the same time, if you do basic math, you know, you're going to take a $600,000 mortgage. You know, you just look at interest payments, property taxes, maintenance. That might actually be more than what you pay in rent now. And that doesn't even count if you're investing in your savings. So I, again, I wouldn't let anyone worry about that. You just figure it out on your own. Like you said, you figure it out on your own and you make those decisions. Don't let people influence you. Absolutely. Well, I think Barry touched on a lot of really great points and offered some really great

tips on how you can start do-it-yourself investing. I, for one, I'm definitely going to look into it more for myself. And what's really cool is right after me and Barry's interview, he suggested that I read this one really great book that gives me a little bit more information about how to get started and it's called The Value of Simple, A Practical Guide to Taking the Complexity Out of Investing by John Robertson and John Robertson, the author of this book, was so gracious to give me a copy to give away. So if you're interested in DIY investing, you're definitely going to want this book was so gracious to give me a copy to give away. So if you're interested in DIY investing, you're definitely going to want this book. So make sure to check out the

show notes for this episode at momoneymohouses.com slash seven, and you can enter to win a copy of this awesome book. So thank you so much again for listening and check back here next week for my episode with Tanya from the personal finance blog, Budget in the Beach. And next week's episode will all be about her journey from employee to self-employed. So make sure to check back next Wednesday. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network.

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