More Money Podcast - 008 From Employee to Self-Employed - Tonya Stumphauzer, Blogger at Budget and the Beach

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to Episode 8 of Mo Money Mo Houses, the personal finance podcast with a dash of sass. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse, and thank you so much for being here. I'm pretty stoked that I'm already at Episode 8. That means I'm two episodes away from hitting double digits. Pretty crazy. So because this is Episode eight, just want to make sure y'all know that you can find the show notes with some additional information about this episode, some cool links you may want to check out. And I'm also going to include a very special video you may want to check out from my guest. So make sure you go to momoneymohouses.com slash eight for this particular episode. And if ever you want to know what other episodes

Starting point is 00:00:45 have happened, what those show notes are for each of those episodes, please visit MoMoneyMoHouses.com slash podcast. Man, that is a mouthful. I can't believe I'm like Mo Money Mo Houses. Try saying that 10 times fast. Just try. Okay. Did you do it? You didn't do it. It's okay. All right. So today I'm very excited because my guest is, she's a super special guest. Not only is she one of my favorite personal finance bloggers, but she's also my first non-Canadian guest. So pretty pumped about that. We're going to be talking about, oh, let me mention who she is. How about that? Tanya, Budget and the Beach. Y'all know her, I'm sure. And we're going to be talking about, oh, let me mention who she is. How about that? Tanya, Budget and the Beach. Y'all know her, I'm sure. And we're going to be talking about her journey, which includes being an employee for several years and having her kind of career

Starting point is 00:01:36 industry change. And now she's a freelancer. So very interesting journey she has. So I'm very excited to talk to her about that. Also, I want to mention a cool fun fact. Me and Tanya have met in person, which is like I met most of the Canadian bloggers just because Canada is pretty small. But she's kind of one of the few American bloggers I've met. And we kind of met in kind of a cool circumstance. When me and Josh, my husband, got married back in 2013. We went to California to go on our honeymoon because we're Uber nerds and wanted to go to Disneyland because we've never been. And on our kind of vacation in California, we went to LA and met up with Tanya and had some tacos and

Starting point is 00:02:18 beer and had the best time. So pretty pumped that she is on the show today. Welcome, Tanya, to the podcast. Thanks so much for agreeing to be on my show. Thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. And I was specifically excited to interview you because you are my first U.S. guest. Everyone else has been from Canada. So you're like my first American. I'm pretty excited about that.

Starting point is 00:02:42 America. America. Awesome. So I've been a follower of your blog for a while. And I like your style of talking because you're very open and honest about everything. But I find specifically your journey pretty interesting because you didn't necessarily have, it didn't seem like a relationship with money until kind of later on in your career, right? So let's kind of maybe dive into what your, how did things start? Like how did you grow up? What was kind of your relationship with money and

Starting point is 00:03:18 then how did it evolve? Okay. Well, you know, I've always, you know, had it pretty easy with work. Pretty much my entire adult life, I was always employed as a full-time video editor. And even when I was in situations where I didn't like what I was doing, I did a little stint as a movie trailer editor back in, I won't say the date. I know, but honestly, just hearing that, like the film kid in me was like, oh my God, that would have been my dream job. That's exactly it is that people thought, you know, this was the pinnacle of my career. I thought it was the pinnacle of my career. And I moved from Seattle to L.A. and it was just six months of hell. I it actually almost turned me off from movies for good. I just couldn't watch movies for a while with like the same pleasure. So it took me a while to detox from that.

Starting point is 00:04:04 So I think like the idea that something might be perfect is not necessarily perfect. So, you know, I quit that job and moved back up to Seattle, which I loved Seattle. And, and, you know, you could just get a temp job back in those days. I mean, nobody seemed to really worry. Everything just kind of flowed effortlessly. And, you know, I've always, always had a decent enough job to cover expenses. I spent a lot of my 20s going to live music and buying CDs because that's what you did back then. That's what you did. I know there's no iTunes.

Starting point is 00:04:36 Oh, my gosh. This was the dark ages. So I did that, you know, and so I had a good time. And, you know, I did the basics of saving money, 10%. If the company offered a 401K, I did that. But I never, ever really thought that my life was going to change drastically in the work sense until 2008 when the economy crashed. Our company was being bought out by another video game company. I'd been with that company for eight years. It was a very cushy job. I had a great office. I

Starting point is 00:05:10 had a great boss. I had a great commute, even for LA. And so life was just kind of cushy. And we got word that the company was going to be bought out and it took almost a year for it to happen. So luckily, I would say in that time, I kind of got a little bit serious with saving money and saving all my vacation time to be paid out at the end. And we got a very, very good severance. I think it was six months, which I think is unheard of at the time. So I had accrued a lot of savings in that time very wisely. What I didn't do and I hadn't expected was that once I became a freelancer, and I never actually planned necessarily on becoming a freelancer,

Starting point is 00:05:54 I really fell into it and I fell into a fire basically. The first week I was on my own. I luckily landed a really great project with a producer that I've been working with for years now. I mean, big bucks, long hours, you know? And so I was like, Hey man, freelancing is going to be great. It's like, Oh, they just give me the jobs. Give me all the jobs. A week after I'm done with full time. Is this like, okay, why didn't I do this before? Yeah. And so I, I, and that job went, you know, I did that. And then after that, really things got very, very quiet in that early part of 2008.

Starting point is 00:06:33 And, but the problem was I didn't change my, my mindset. I didn't change my attitude. If I was smart, which apparently I wasn't, but you know, forgive our past. I would have done things so much differently. Like I could have really stretched my savings so much more than I did. And after that I did. And then I was not only was I not saving and living on a budget, but I was blowing money big time. I think I was really depressed about, I had kind of a breakup after a five-year relationship and, you know, the whole job thing. And so I really got into beach volleyball. I'm

Starting point is 00:07:11 still into it, but I'm much more smart about it. But I signed up for classes. I would, you know, I was meeting a whole new group of people. So I thought, oh, you know, I can meet my future husband doing this. So I used to go out to dinners after games and classes and just was spending as if I had a full-time job. And I lived that way for a couple of years until I was damn near out of my savings. And so I hit my rock bottom. It was actually February of 2012 when I got my car towed. It's sort of an infamous story on my blog. And I think it was at that moment where I realized that a check I was waiting for,

Starting point is 00:07:50 for a freelancer was the exact amount that I was going to have to use to get my car out of car jail or the impound. And it was really that moment where I literally had a mini breakdown, was crying and like just this hard realization of what I had done. And it was, and it really wasn't even like that moment that I actually started getting my crap together. It was a couple months later. I, cause I had taken a couple of vacations that I had already booked. Yeah. So right after that low moment, I went to New York city, um, on a fairly frugal weekend. And then I went to Hawaii on a like all inclusive thing that I had already paid for several months beforehand. So, you know, I had to go.

Starting point is 00:08:31 Of course. Yeah. So like my blog was started in May 2012. And I think that's where I started making really, really hard cuts to spending and changing my lifestyle drastically. And so you kind of started the blog as a way to keep yourself more accountable. Yeah. Well, I had always kind of blogged. I mean, I was blogging before blogging was called blogging. Oh, my gosh.

Starting point is 00:08:54 I had this, I don't know how many people know about this one. I don't know about it. I'm surprised I don't know about it. This e-zine, as they were called back then. Oh, I remember zine. Yeah, deep fried bug vision. And it was mostly focused on music and pop culture and the Seattle scene and whatnot. And so I had started my writing as a hobby and an outlet for creativity back then.

Starting point is 00:09:19 And then I sort of blogged. You know, they had like LiveJournal and MySpace and all those iterations I think I had gone through. And someday I'm going to have to go back and dig through all of my old blogs you know, they had like live journal and my space and I, all those iterations, I think I had gone through and I, I somewhere someday I'm gonna have to go back and dig through all of my old blogs. So I can have a memory of things that I did. I don't, so my, my words are out there and I don't even know. It's like, it's on Google somewhere. I'm probably going to search right after this. Exactly. So someday I'm going to aggregate all that and get it together. But so, um, I had another, I was to with the idea of becoming a life coach at one point. And so I had started a blog associated with that called Life Accomplished. Life, comma, accomplished.

Starting point is 00:09:54 I don't have it anymore, so don't go looking for it. But so I was writing. And then when I started to be in a poor position financially, A, I knew that I wasn't ready to become a life coach and it really wasn't my calling. And B, I realized that when I started talking about money, it made me really uncomfortable. And I had touched on it a little bit with Life Accomplished, but I started to feel really exposed and vulnerable. So I started Budget on the Beach and I literally came up with the name in two seconds. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:10:22 It's a great name. I love it. It just came out, right? So I started that anonymously. And literally over the course, I just turned three, or my blog just turned three. Awesome. Slowly started coming out of the blog closet, so to speak, with everybody slowly. And I'm really glad I did. If anyone's considering not doing it out there, I think it's good. I tell every blogger that's anonymous it's like don't stop it I mean I do tend to sometimes really love reading the blogs that are anonymous because they will talk about all the crap that when you're a public blogger you cannot talk about like job relationships you know all those really juicy things but in

Starting point is 00:11:00 general I really like when the bloggers become public so we have a really oh look you have a real face and a real person, you know? Yeah, exactly. They put a name to a face. You're like, that's what you look like. So, yeah. And I think it's only a benefit. I mean, yes, you may not be able to like say everything that's going on in the life of consequences.

Starting point is 00:11:20 But I think the benefits outweigh the cons to be out to be, to be out there. Um, and so, yeah, that's, that's kind of the journey of, of budget and the beach. That's awesome. So, um, what, uh, did this happen when you were living is still in LA when the switch happened? I guess. Cause yes, yes. I've, I've been in LA for nearly, I think it's 13 years. So yeah, it's been a long time. And so how long have you been freelancing for? Since 2008. So it'll be eight years, I think, in September. I'm curious, what does your freelance career look like now compared to when you first started? What kind of things did you learn? I'm so fascinated by the people that

Starting point is 00:12:06 choose to go the self-employed route. My husband's self-employed and he has one kind of point of view on things. I think a lot of it has to do with him working in the music industry, but you freelance, but you do specifically like video stuff. And also you have your blog, which is your own business. Correct. Yeah. I mean, it didn't start off that way. And if you want to talk about all the things I've learned, I mean, this podcast would be like four hours long. But some of the main things I would say are, and this was really kind of no fault of my own. One thing I always tip, I always give freelancers or people who want to become a freelancer is to practice, get all your clients, do your side work while you're still full time. I just think that's a huge benefit because things just take a really, really long time to get rolling in that area.

Starting point is 00:12:56 And you're going to be waiting a long time, which brings me to point two, which is what I learned the hard ways. I was thinking, you know, I've been a video editor for, for years. Certainly people will come to me, you know, I'll just throw my online portfolio out there. People will just find you online. Sure. That's how it happens. No, you actually have to go for work. And, and I've only just recently discovered this, I would say, in the last year, which is you are only as good or noticed as your last project. So I've been producing and producing my own stuff, even if I don't get paid, even if I'm finding all the resources on my own. Because you have to constantly actively be doing to prove yourself. It's like your producer will show me what you've produced lately. You know, it can't be from, you know, 2008 or 2009.

Starting point is 00:13:51 What is this like current thing that you've produced? So you constantly need to be like in motion and moving and seeking out and making contacts. And, you know, that was something I, you know, waited way too long to do was to like be a go getter. And certainly there's like a million financial tips as well that, you know, not living within a restricted budget. And I mean, to say restricted, meaning like you can't enjoy life. I mean, like realistic is more like the word I want to say, you know, being very sensible about your budget. It's tricky as a freelancer. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express.

Starting point is 00:14:32 Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. So do you find compared to when you were working full time for a company to now that you're a freelancer, has the way you spend money, your lifestyle, your budget, has that changed pretty dramatically? And is it because now when you make money, it's on you, but before you always knew when your paycheck was coming? Oh my God. I can't even count the ways that it has changed drastically. I mean, yes, you are, you know, if you have a good, you know, like a good project or job or whatever, and you're going to have different clients, some are going to

Starting point is 00:15:16 pay right away. Some are going to wait forever. Some of you have to go after them to like finally pay you. But then you get, you might get like this nice fat paycheck to realize that like 25, 30% is going to taxes. Yes. To start, you really have to be active in cutting percentages out

Starting point is 00:15:36 for your basic life things, health insurance that you didn't have to worry about before or retirement savings if that's what you're doing. Emergency savings is a huge one for not just everybody, but even more so as a freelancer. I'd say more so for sure. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean that whole like one to two months or even like six months, I would say a year is really ideal as a freelancer because you may and probably will hit dry patches. I mean

Starting point is 00:16:02 work keeps ebb and flow based on kind of seasons and the industry that you might be in and whatnot. So, you know, it's just you can't – it's a very, very big roller coaster, which is the more cushion you have, the less of that roller coaster you feel because it sort of makes the hills of the roller coaster smaller because you know that like, okay, I'm cool, I'm cool. I, you know, I got that covered. Um, but for me, I've gone through a big, pretty big dry spell since July. And so it's really tough to, um, to manage sometimes. So it's definitely not for the faint of heart. Yeah. I always kind of find the people that

Starting point is 00:16:40 are thinking about going the freelance route may not always necessarily know what could happen, the consequences or what it just entails. Because personally, I just know I do not have the personality to freelance, whereas my husband, he loves doing it. It suits his personality. He loves the unexpected. So it seemed like you actually really liked working for a company full-time, but then you've been freelancing for eight years. So I always wonder, would you ever

Starting point is 00:17:12 go back to working full-time for a company? Or did you kind of realize while you were freelancing and building your own business, no, this suits me way better. This makes way more sense for the life that I want. Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's not, I'm not against full-time. I think what has happened along the way and for, you know, on and off throughout my, uh, being a freelancer, I have definitely toyed and have applied for full-time jobs and interviewed for full-time jobs. And it's funny because back at, like I was talking about before I would get jobs really easily without a problem. I was finding that I wasn't getting, um, jobs that I was interviewing for. And I just thought like, what is going on? And I realized, well, there's, there's two things. One is I,

Starting point is 00:17:56 in my particular industry, things have changed a lot. You get, there's, whereas there used to be, uh, multiple people for on a project, let's say a video editor, you'd have a motion graphics person, you'd have maybe a colorist, different breakouts of people as the recession hit, they tightened that up where they've made it as like one person jobs. And I realized that I'm not, I was, wasn't never cut out for being a necessarily a one man show on the post production side of things. And so I eventually lost interest in that particular part of my industry. So I think I was energetically not getting jobs for a reason. So what I was, what had happened is that I started discovering as I started blogging, I was feeling a little directionless. Like I said, I had thought about becoming a life coach. I just was in this mode where I couldn't quite figure out where, where I wanted to be, what I wanted to do. I felt like I was forcing myself almost to

Starting point is 00:19:01 look for a full-time job as a just video editor. So as I was doing my blog, I discovered like it is the blogging thing is my passion and I just feel so strongly about it. And it's not that I hated video. I still like video. I just realized there was like a new formation of the type of work I wanted to be doing that included video. And what I discovered through self-help books, I love self, I love me a good self-help podcast. Like we talked about, uh, is that I love, love, love storytelling. I want to write stories about people. I want to share their stories. I want to tell my story. And so that includes writing for the blog. That includes producing videos. And someday I think it might include speaking or writing a book.

Starting point is 00:19:52 Yeah. So it's like the medium of my job has changed. And I don't think I'm going to find that in a full-time job. And that's fair because, yeah, just looking at, and I tell people all this time, I went to film school, did a degree, thought I was going to graduate and become a filmmaker because I had a crazy fantasy of what life would be like outside of school. But, okay, I've been out of school for five or six years now. And I can say the industry has dramatically changed the film industry. I'm pretty sure lots of the jobs that we were told, oh, you could be that, like you mentioned, like, you know, there'd be an editor and a

Starting point is 00:20:27 motion graphic person and a colorist. Yeah, we were told those were jobs. But now that is like one person. And it's kind of crazy. I'm kind of glad I didn't really pursue that route because I don't feel like that would have really fit with what I wanted to do. And it's true what you also said. At the end of the day, your core is a storyteller. The medium has changed, but your desire to tell your story hasn't. So you've kind of just made your own way, which is awesome, I think. Yeah, basically. And I'm happy that you didn't pursue. I know. I would have been a terrible, like, not that I was a terrible filmmaker,

Starting point is 00:21:04 but I just don't think, I think it just would not have suited my personality. I love structure and filmmaking has nothing of that. No, it wouldn't work. Here's the great thing. I mean, when I started off, again, in the dark ages, you couldn't be an independent filmmaker or video editor or whatever. I mean, you had to go to a place in a building that had big machine rooms and tape to tape and expensive equipment and all of this stuff. Anybody with a decent camera that's fairly inexpensive, or you can even use your phone, and some inexpensive editing software and YouTube. I mean, it's just ridiculous what you can do on your own. So I think that's great. You went to film school and you went through that and you could take those skills and not only apply them as soft skills to your life, but you could still do that

Starting point is 00:21:53 in your own way when you're ready. Yeah. The resources are totally there and inexpensive. And, and that's, that is the, the down, that is the downside and the beauty of my industry the downside is now yes everyone can feels like they're an editor and they can do it um now you got fiverr and all these these uh sites which are good on one hand yeah but they're also they they devalue our exactly i just can't yeah whenever i see like an ad for fiverr it's like oh i want a logo for five dollars i'm like there are graphic designers crying right now. Like legit that have been in the industry for 20 years. They're like, why, why? Well, the thing is though, is, and that's a good wake up call. And that was a big wake up call for me too, is that you, you, you can't be stagnant in your own industry. You have to constantly be

Starting point is 00:22:41 on your toes. Like I remember for the longest time I was like, oh, Instagram, I'm not going to do Instagram. Everyone's on Instagram. Don't tell me what to do with social media. I have Facebook and Twitter. And I'm like, then, you know, I realized what marketing opportunities I was missing. I'm like, I better get on the Instagram. I'm the same way. I only got Instagram like a year ago. And I was kind of against it. I'm like, no, I've got enough social platforms. I don't need another one. And then I'm like, well, okay, fine. I'll do it. And I love it. I love it. You're only hurting yourself when you don't keep up. And so you have to like, no matter what age you are, you're going to constantly have to be on your toes and looking at industry trends and, and, you know, and not if you, if like you're vehemently against something for whatever reason, that's a big sign that you're not doing what you want to be doing.

Starting point is 00:23:28 But if you're like, I just don't want to do it because whatever, then, you know, get on the ball. You have to like you have to be involved and learn about those things. It's just because it's, you know, it's part of our culture. You have to be constantly evolving with it. Yeah, I totally agree. So, Tanya, if someone were to listen to this and maybe they're considering going the self-employment route, what kind of simple tips would you give them based on your experience? Right. Well, the one thing I already kind of mentioned was basically I think you should be a practice freelancer. So while you have that cushy full-time job, start practicing doing what it's like to be a freelancer. Are you a blogger and you want to be a writer? Start writing for other people. Go out and start hustling for clients. Get that going because you just don't want to like, you know, jump in, you know, you don't want to quit your job and then try and, you know, be like, oh crap.

Starting point is 00:24:29 Yeah. So, I mean, then you're going to be like having months where it's dry, uh, which is the second point. Second tip, um, is save as much money as you can. I mean, I would have a year's worth of, worth of emergency savings before you even start becoming a freelancer. I would recommend having your debt paid off, but I know that's not going to be realistic for everybody's situation. So I would say if you're going to have debt, make sure it's very manageable. You're not like putting half of your current money into your debt repayment. If you're doing okay and you're managing it, then maybe that's okay. But you definitely, definitely want to have a big, big cushion financially. And the third tip I would say is try to live off maybe half of the

Starting point is 00:25:18 income you're currently making. And there's two reasons for that. One reason is because that could be very realistic of what you might be facing as a freelancer, taking a big pay cut, especially maybe in the first year or a couple of years. So you better get used to living with reduced expenses. And then that way, it's really like no harm, no foul, because if you hate it, you know there's your answer that you may not be quite ready for it. The second thing that's good about that is that living off half of your income is also going to make your savings rate go higher in a quicker amount of time. So you're going to be doing two things, figuring out what it's like to live off half your income and saving that other half of

Starting point is 00:26:00 your income for that emergency fund. I really, really cannot emphasize that enough. I've had people not take my advice before and are struggling currently. So you recommend doing that while they're full-time employees, but also just to kind of get that habit. Because as you kind of mentioned in your experience, it was really hard to kind of crack that habit right out the gate. So it's easier to probably do that while you are still a full-time employee. Oh, yeah. I mean, because you know you have a fallback option. If it's like totally miserable and you're realizing like, look, you know what? I tried being a freelance writer and I don't really like writing for other people. Well, you're safe. You're okay. Then you might want

Starting point is 00:26:35 to try something else. But it's just better to have that safety net. I think it's great people are taking a leap. I think it's great people are taking a risk and a chance. I think everyone should do that in their own way, but you need to take calculated risks. I think that's just really important for your sanity. Yeah. You've got to be smart about it and don't have unrealistic expectations. Because like you mentioned, I think some people will be like, oh, I'm going to freelance, going to work for myself. It's going to be awesome. But they don't realize like, well, you will most likely be making way less and you're kind of at the start. And it's not easy. You got to have some tough skin and not everyone has it. I know I don't. I just don't. I think people see, you know, they look at other bloggers, they see their income reports,

Starting point is 00:27:23 and some people are killing it and other people are struggling. But the thing is it's like an iceberg. You see just the tip of the iceberg above the surface. You don't see the thousands of feet of ice that's below the surface. And there's a lot there that is not revealed to everybody so openly. And so just be cautious of those things you see online, whether that's either from the failure perspective or from the success perspective, meaning that like somebody, some people might be over-exaggerating their failure. Other people might be over-exaggerating their successes. So find that nice, realistic middle ground and just

Starting point is 00:28:03 make sure you set the bar accordingly. Absolutely. Take everything you read online with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to personal finance stuff because you'll go a little longer, I think, if you don't. One last thing I want to just talk about before I let you go is I think it's so cool. You mentioned you're a storyteller and you have a great way with words, but you're also kind of doing this new project, which is a video project. And I think it's an awesome kind of compliment to this podcast because it's all about talking to real people about their real money stories. Do you want to kind of talk about that a little bit? Yeah. So for a while,

Starting point is 00:28:42 I was doing skits and actually I'm still doing that. But really what I wanted to do, because I've always loved documentaries, I have kind of a huge crush on Morgan Spurlock's work and Lisa Ling. They're kind of what I aspire to be someday. But both of them focus on real slice-of-life people and stories. And I just wanted to tell other people's stories, not necessarily so specifically about money, right? Because you can get all that information online in a quick Google search. I wanted to see really what people were experiencing around money, both in their successes and failures, and just have people relate to that and maybe have a little bit

Starting point is 00:29:28 of empathy. Also maybe get inspired. You know, I might try to find people who are successful entrepreneurs and show you visually, um, how they are doing it day to day. Um, and so I think, you know, I was just really, really excited about it. I got a new camera a couple months ago because I wanted to be a one-woman show. I wanted to be able to get out there and produce these on my own and not have to worry about hiring a crew eventually. If you are a financial institution who would like to sponsor me, feel free to email me. Shout out. Shout out, write a little plug because I would love that. I hopefully can make that happen because I am so passionate about it.

Starting point is 00:30:09 You have no idea. I'm just so excited about this new venture. And so, yeah, it's called Real Money Stories and hopefully we'll feature a new person each month. Absolutely. And I'll make sure to include your first video, which I loved on my blog post to spread the word. Thank you. No problem. So thank you so much for joining me today. So nice to talk to you. It's been a while. It's been, you know, right since my trip to California. Fish tacos. Yeah. So hopefully we can do this again soon. I'd love to talk to

Starting point is 00:30:47 you more about the progression of your video project. I think that'll be really cool. Thank you. And I'd be happy to promote your podcast as well. Very happy that you're doing it. And I hope you're going to FinCon this year. Not this year. Not this year. Yeah, no, I went last year and I think I need a break and maybe next year or whatever. I think we keep missing each other by like every other year. I know. I know. I know.

Starting point is 00:31:12 Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for being a wonderful guest on my podcast. And if any of you listeners want to check out Tanya's great blog, it is budgetinthebeach.com. And you can also find her on Twitter at Beach Budget. And of course, for this episode's show notes, more info on Tanya's video series and my latest blog post, please check out momoneymohouses.com or reach me at momoneymohouses on Twitter and you can always email me as well. Thanks so much for tuning in. See you next Wednesday.

Starting point is 00:31:53 This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.

More Money Podcast - 008 From Employee to Self-Employed - Tonya Stumphauzer, Blogger at Budget and the Beach

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