More Money Podcast - 018 How Not to Live like a Starving Artist - Melissa Bondar, Blogger at BrokeGirlRich

Episode Date: September 16, 2015

BrokeGirlRich blogger Melissa Bondar and I discuss the sacrifices you have to make to follow your passion and work in the arts industry, while paying off debt and living on a very tight budget. Long ...episode description: I was really looking forward to interviewing Melissa Bondar, the blogger behind BrokeGirlRich. Not only were we roommates for FinCon 2014 in New Orleans, but her story is very close to my heart. We both went to art school in university, her for theatre and me for film. But instead of pursuing a career in my field like Melissa did, I kind of chickened out and just ran in the complete opposite direction. No regrets of course, and looking back I can say confidently that the film industry and me would not have been a good fit. That being said, I think it is so cool that Melissa pursued her dream of working in theatre and now she has an awesome job as a stage manager in New York City! You go girl! Melissa and I talked about a ton of stuff on the show, and I’ve listed some of her blog posts that we talked about below. For anyone who is thinking about working in the arts, or is already working in that field and needs a good blog to read about being smart with money, make sure to check out Melissa’s blog and follow her on twitter! Links Melissa & I Mentioned Melissa’s blog post about living below her means so she doesn’t have to work a job she hates: Fail is the Best Four Letter Word Her list of 114 side hustles to make extra money The Penny Hoarder’s blog about how to become a mystery shopper Melissa’s net worth updates Shownotes: jessicamoorhouse.com/18 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to episode 18 of Mo Money Mo Houses. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse. And today I'm very excited to talk to my next guest. Her name is Melissa. She is the blogger behind Broke Girl Rich. And I've actually known Melissa for a little while. I've been following her blog for quite a few years, but I actually got the chance to meet her last year in New Orleans for FinCon. We were actually roommates for that conference. And if you're not familiar with FinCon, there's probably a good reason. It is super nerdy, super niche. It is literally a conference for personal finance bloggers and podcasters. And we meet every year in a different city in the U.S.
Starting point is 00:00:47 And I kind of couldn't pass it up. I'd had my blog for, I guess, three years at that point or almost three years. And the city was going to be in New Orleans. So I had to go to New Orleans. I had to go see that city. And I also really was excited to meet some awesome bloggers and podcasters as I'd been a follower of for so many years. So I'm very excited to be able to reconnect with Melissa Marumi from FinCon for this episode. I am really excited to talk to
Starting point is 00:01:13 her specifically because I find our stories are very similar. She went to a drama school. I went to film school. She ended up actually not being a chicken like me and, you know, going to a totally different room, working for a company in advertising and marketing, but she stuck to her guns and is still working in the arts industry as a stage manager. So I'm very excited to talk to her about, you know, what that's like, how, what are the kind of the things you gain, you know, following your passion like that. And how difficult is it to work in a very, you know, competitive industry like the arts scene? And how does that affect your personal finances? So we're going to get into all of that in today's episode.
Starting point is 00:01:57 Well, thank you, Melissa, for joining me on the program today. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited. You're welcome. Thanks. No, it was was well, part of the reason I wanted to interview you is, you know, I really enjoy your blog, but it was also really awesome to meet you at FinCon in last September, I guess. Yeah, we definitely had the best hotel room. Oh, we did, didn't we? So it was awesome meeting you in person. So I definitely want to just, yeah, interview you and kind of share your story because I find it, you know, really identifiable. And just it's a story that I think a lot of listeners can relate to.
Starting point is 00:02:36 And it's very close, kind of close to my heart just because you work in the arts and entertainment industry. And that's kind of one direction I thought I was going to go into because I went to film school. So it's just kind of cool just seeing someone that actually did it. I was a bit too chicken, honestly. I finished film school. I was just kind of too chicken to even try to work in the film industry. So I think it's awesome that you work in theater. That's cool.
Starting point is 00:03:00 I think a lot of my readers feel that way. Like, I thought I might do this. What's this life like if you actually go do it? Exactly. So let's kind of start from, like, where did you first learn about personal finance? And then how did that interest kind of spark you to start a blog eventually? I feel like I didn't really know anything about personal finance for a really long time. Like, growing up in, it was a lot more of what not to do, I think I learned. Which is always important. Yeah, definitely. But I feel like I was actually after college and I dated a couple of guys who were really into personal finance and they made me feel like a dork for not knowing about things
Starting point is 00:03:39 like retirement funds. That's amazing that you dated anyone that was into personal finance. That's awesome. Yeah, but then I really got into it when I actually took on like 30 grand of debt to go to grad school. I think that's a catalyst for a whole lot of people to learn how to get their financial act together. Oh, yeah, that'll kind of scare you straight, right? Yeah, that's one way to put it. Yeah, I know. I don't know why that came into my mind, but it did.
Starting point is 00:04:06 Sorry. They're probably very similar. I can't speak from experience. Yeah. So you went to university and then you went to grad school. Did you study theater in both? I did, yeah. In undergrad, I studied more theater production and like hands on and in grad school I studied more theory ideas
Starting point is 00:04:27 so I could go on for a PhD eventually maybe we'll see and so you're are you originally from New Jersey I am yeah yeah and so and then you kind of made the move to New York to kind of because that's where all the theater is I'm assuming
Starting point is 00:04:42 kind of I traveled for several years doing different jobs in theater out uh out on a cruise ship and then with the circus and when i was sick of oh wow sick of joy i moved back home this circus that sounds really interesting yeah it wasn't it wasn't bad yeah that's not bad a circus Yeah. A bit crazy. So you work, so what, your main job is a stage manager, right? Yeah. And so what's kind of your, how long have you been doing that? What's your experience, you know, working in the arts professionally? Is it kind of, is it difficult? Because I just remember, you know, when I was in film school and then looking for a job, it was not easy at all, especially to find a paying gig.
Starting point is 00:05:27 Honestly, there's a lot of free work out there, but not a lot of paying jobs. Yeah, you know, I've actually I found that it's kind of hard to like plan. But oddly enough, the jobs are out there and I think I've been unusually lucky. Right after undergrad, I actually went to a different grad school to study something entirely unrelated to theater. And I needed a job while I was there. And I wound up falling into stage managing for a theater company there. And I was like, oh, I guess I'll do this to pay the bills. And as I was doing it, I was like, what the heck?
Starting point is 00:05:53 All of my friends would kill to be doing what we studied to do. And I'm like, this is an inconvenience while I'm studying something else. But I'm so glad I have the skill. And then after I was done uh studying there I decided I didn't want to do anything with those degrees and I really needed a job and I was like I feel like the only practical skill I have now is stage management so I applied to a cruise line and got hired at the last minute and wound up spending five years out there five Five years? Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. What was that experience like? Because I have a friend who did it for, I'd say, like maybe eight months. And she says,
Starting point is 00:06:31 you know, it was a great experience, but also a really tough job because you're not that you're working all the time, but you're always there. And it's kind of an interesting experience anyway. It definitely was an interesting experience. I think, I mean, I kind of have the travel bug, so that really helped keep me out there a lot longer than I needed to be out there. And for stage management, it was an awesome first really big job. The theater was really pretty big. There was a lot of high-tech
Starting point is 00:06:56 equipment that I didn't get to work with in college that gave me excellent resume skills. And ships kind of, you're very on your own, so I feel like there were a lot of experiences that happened out there that in like a normal theater with proper supervision probably wouldn't have occurred and instead it was like well here you go 23 year old just run run the technical entertainment side of our ship and uh that that was really handy kind of later on when i went to
Starting point is 00:07:22 interview everywhere else absolutely so i know i you know kind of later on when I went to interview everywhere else. Absolutely. So I know I, you know, kind of checked out your blog today just to kind of see what you've been up to lately. And I realized that you just celebrated your two-year blog-a-versary. Yeah, I did. It's been two years at Broke Girl Rich. That's amazing. So let's get into why did you start the blog? Because it's very, you? Because it's very personal finance focused. It has nothing to do with theater. Did you just want something different or
Starting point is 00:07:49 what kind of made you want to start it? It started out when I was towards the end of paying off all of my student loan debt. And I started reading a lot of other personal finance bloggers. And a lot of them are all debt bloggers who sort of just do it as accountability. So I got started with that. But by the time I had finished paying off my debt, I had learned so much more about personal finance. And I started to wonder, you know, like, especially people in the arts are not known for being particularly finance savvy. That is true. I know a lot of those people. So I agree with that. So I kind of kept writing with the idea of like my target audience is really sort of millennials who work in the arts or are interested in the arts and think that like how could I ever possibly be financially stable.
Starting point is 00:08:32 And I feel that I actually am very financially to them or they're like doing so well. I couldn't relate to them. I was like, it didn't seem like anyone who's got like a net worth of like 30 grand is like plugging along and we can see how that is growing or if it even does. So that's been another one of my goals with sort of. Which is why I found that your blog really kind of spoke to me because it's kind of like huh she's kind of like me because it's like i've never been in like crazy boatload of debt i had like five thousand dollars after i graduated university but i do not have a piles of money and i'm not a huge success so it's like where are the
Starting point is 00:09:21 people like me and then that's why i'm like oh yes this is why i like brokerage it's like, where are the people like me? And then that's when I'm like, Oh yes, this is why I like brokerage. It's just not yet. We'll get there. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. We're still young. It's okay. We have plenty of years. I sometimes forget. I was actually talking to my husband yesterday about, you know, sometimes they get kind of, you know, there's all those motivational books and personal finance books. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm nowhere near that. He's like, you're like, they're how old? They're probably in their fifties. You have like 20, you've only been an adult for like five years, really. Well, I guess longer than that, but I've only felt like five years just starting to get my stuff together. So there's plenty of time. And so that's why I think it's awesome because people can kind of read your blog and my blog and kind of, you know, over the years, see how we progress from,
Starting point is 00:10:04 you know, this stage, which is, I think, a stage that most people are at. They may not be in, like, most people aren't at extremes, really. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Exactly. So you've had your blog for two years. It seems like a big theme of your blog is living below your means to kind of just have
Starting point is 00:10:24 a happy life. And I think that's a big, personally, I find that's a big trend going on in the personal finance sphere is living simply, living with what you have, which is great because those are just like, well, duh, those are kind of no brainers. But I think it's a really great thing that you're writing about. So what are things that you do to kind of live below your means? And then also we'll kind of get into later all the things that you do to make extra money. So let's start with like, what are things that you do to make sure that you're kind of in check with your budget? I think one of the primary things I do is that I really, really prioritize savings. And I've sort of rethought the way that I even think of savings.
Starting point is 00:11:05 Instead of losing out on things, to me, having a good savings, like an emergency fund, is more of a safety cushion. It's like freedom to be able to go and do the jobs that I want to do because I know I'm not trapped by not being able to pay my bills or I have to take a job worth X amount of money because how else will I pay those bills that I've gathered? Instead, I've got this nice cushion that I can use at different times.
Starting point is 00:11:30 Exactly. And I think you wrote about in a post about how you did at some point have a job that you took because it was an okay paying job, but you hated it and you felt trapped. And I totally relate to that. I've been there myself with a few jobs and I think that's a lot of people. It's a hard thing. It's like, well, I've got bills to pay or I have a family or this and that. What do you do? Yeah, I mean, I feel like you can always
Starting point is 00:11:55 still prioritize your savings even if your bills are at a set amount. I mean, there are things you can call and negotiate even if it's just a little bit that you manage to save each month. If that goes into a savings account, eventually it starts to add up. Absolutely.
Starting point is 00:12:10 Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. So let's kind of get into, you know, it's super important to obviously prioritize saving. And especially with the emergency fund, I sleep well at night because I've got mine. And yeah, I prioritize that. But another thing you do, which is great, is you have lots of side hustles. And a lot of the people I've interviewed so far in the podcast, their side hustles were, you know, more based around like online businesses or writing. And then they kind
Starting point is 00:12:51 of turn that into like their own business and they quit their jobs to do that. But what I like about you is, you know, you do have some of the freelance writing, but there's also a lot of different things that you do. You kind of like spread it out to kind of diversify your side hustles. Yeah, I guess that's one way to put it. Yeah. I guess, yeah, well, that's another thing for the people who are like, oh, I've got all these bills and I'm stuck where I am. You can always figure out ways to make more money. I mean, if you've got a house full of stuff, you probably don't need most of it,
Starting point is 00:13:20 so you could be eBaying it up all the time. Also, mystery shopping is another big one, but that's a little bit, it depends on where you're living. If you live in a big city about mystery shopping because i feel like it's something that not too many people take advantage of when it seems like kind of an easy thing to do um actually one of the first blogs that i really got hooked on was the penny hoarder and he just writes every possible side hustle under the sun i feel like this guy must just sit all day doing weird hustles that only amount to like 30 cents so that he can write a post about why you shouldn't do that one but in the process has also found plenty that that are great and he was the first one i think where i found like clear instructions on how to be a mystery shopper
Starting point is 00:14:15 because i had googled it several times over the years and you don't really get very clear instructions or you get places that are like pay us 50 and we'll teach you how to mystery shop which seemed crazy to me that That's totally a scam. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good. I'll try to, I'll look at his blog and see if I can find some helpful links. Cause I tried when I was, I mean, a few years ago now, when I first moved out and was desperately trying to do anything to make some extra money, cause I just was not making that much money at my, my first job out of school. I tried to do the mystery shopping, but again, maybe there's not that many options for
Starting point is 00:14:50 Canadians. But yeah, I Googled it. There was like a couple of companies that I applied to online and they'd have like postings, but it'd be like, okay, we'll pay you $10 or we'll reimburse you for the meal that you bought. And you're like, well, I'm not sure. Well, the thing I think about it is it takes some time initially and in the long run can become a really useful thing. Like you have to take these tests that are kind of obnoxious and take about 20, 30 minutes to pass. But once you pass the, say, the Auntie Anne's test, you can shop any Auntie Anne's. And usually you'll make five to ten dollars. But if you're going to walk by like six of them on your way to work and you hit one every day, you've just made like 50 bucks and gotten 10 free pretzels or something. So as long as you figure
Starting point is 00:15:34 out how to make it work for you, then I think mystery shopping is great. But if you live in like a rural area where there aren't many offers in your city, it's not really going to be the best thing for you. So do you have kind of a idea of what you want to do, like moving forward? Do you want to just kind of maintain, like continue being a stage manager and hope that your side hustles will kind of grow? Or what do you kind of see in your, I know I hate that, what do you see yourself in five years? But I'm kind of curious, what is your kind of, you know, where do you kind of see yourself
Starting point is 00:16:04 in the next few years based on the progress you've done thus far? I mean, several years from now, I still see myself stage managing because, I mean, right out of college, I was thinking, what other skills do I have than stage managing? Now it's even more ingrained. It's like, I'm a stage manager is what I am. But, you know, I'm not sure. Most of my success has come from being like out on the road and touring and that's where I find that it's easiest to get the work. Like, if you are actually interested in working in the arts and you're willing to move
Starting point is 00:16:32 around and tour or even just move to some weird part of the country for like a six-month gig, I think you're going to be a lot more likely to be successful than someone who's like, I want to live here and do exactly this and I'm not willing to compromise. But, it's kind of nice being home as I get older as well. So I'm waiting to see at which point I'm like, I'm just done with this.
Starting point is 00:16:52 I'm just going to stay home all the time. But I'm not there yet. Not there yet. You're young yet. So one other thing I wanted to talk about was you have these net worth updates, which I know a lot of other bloggers do. But I think it's always interesting the reason behind why everyone does them. I don't, I've never done them on my blog, but I've actually started doing them personally just for me and my husband in the past, I guess since January. Or I just started tracking it since January.
Starting point is 00:17:20 And the reason behind that was I wanted to like I always tracked my spending and when I was on my own it was easy to track how much money I had in my account so I can have an idea of what my net worth was because there really wasn't that much money so I'm like okay I know if I went up 50 bucks quite honestly but now that we've kind of like you know put our money in joint accounts and stuff. I like make a, you know, point of every month tracking it in like a spreadsheet. And the reason for me is to motivate, motivate myself to keep on our budgets and to try new things to make more money and this and that. Is that kind of the reason behind you or is it just an accountability thing or, or is it also just, you want to make sure that you don't get back into debt um i'm not super concerned about getting back into debt i feel
Starting point is 00:18:09 like if that were to occur it would be something like deciding to get my phd or buying a house one of those big decisions where you consciously know what is about to happen to you um but for me i think part of it is definitely the the accountability thing and it helps me as well like achieve my goals in a way, even if my goals are unclear, at least I can see the direction I'm moving in. And it's like, it's always much better to see your net worth go up than down. And whenever I see it, because then you see that you're like, okay, what I'm doing is working. Yeah. Or even like this summer where I'm working part time this summer till I go back out on
Starting point is 00:18:39 another tour. And I see like my net worth, like dropping a little bit with each update this summer. And I'm like, okay, just you knew that would happen that's fine you have a plan look at that your plan's working it's dropping within the right amount but still don't make bad decisions and yeah I think another big thing for me too was sort of going back to the way that there were like no people really updating and tracking their net worth in sort of our range was that I wanted to do that as well. And I think a big thing that a lot of stage managers wonder is how much do stage managers make? Like, honestly, one of the biggest Google searches that go to my blog is how much do stage managers make? And it's like, that's amazing. Exactly this much. You can
Starting point is 00:19:20 look at two years of my career and how wildly it's changed i think that's like a big question on like kind of any career and like as i get older and i get to know more people i get a little bit more ballsy like how much do you make because i'm curious and people don't talk about it and i think we kind of need to yeah it's kind of an i mean talking about money in general is weird but asking people how much they make can, yeah, definitely come off as a bit like gauche. But I think it's like until you know, you kind of won't know, like, am I making enough or what should I kind of raise? Should I ask for or what should I ask for in the next job? Oh, exactly.
Starting point is 00:19:57 When I worked out on the cruise ship, they started me at a starting salary and I kept asking for a raise for a couple contracts and didn't get any and then one of the other stage managers who was much newer than me with less experience who had like several like notices in her in like her file because she was not doing well was I found out she was making so much more that when I went into my next negotiation I was like no no no like and I didn't even say that I knew but I pitched like $10 a day higher than hers and was like, this is still, it should be higher than this. But I went in with like that much confidence and got the raise that I was asking for. Which I think is such an important thing, especially as women, because we still in general make less when in our professional careers, it's so important to, you know, talk to the people about how much they make or just like get a ballpark, get an idea of what the salaries are and make sure you ask for what you're worth, which is something that I've had to learn the hard way. Because my first job, I was definitely, I mean, I had, you know, a degree, but no real office experience. So maybe
Starting point is 00:21:03 that's part of it. uh looking back i'm like how did i survive off that like pittance of a salary like it's scary but it is what it is and i learned my lesson once i you know moved out of that job and into another role yeah i'm hoping to save some other people that step with my vlog and it's hard i think especially in the arts because i mean you know i don't work in the arts uh now but my husband is a freelance audio engineer so he works in the music industry and it's tough because lots of people will do that kind of work for free or for really low pay because they love it and they just want to be involved in like music or arts which is which is kind of of counterproductive
Starting point is 00:21:46 because, okay, well, if you're going to do that for free, then this company isn't going to pay me because you're going to do it for free. So you're kind of messing it up for everybody. Yeah, it's very true. I notice that a lot when I'm applying for stage management jobs. Even the one that I'm currently working is kind of low paying and I accepted that it was lower paying because I was just looking for something to do over the summer. But at one point, they tried to offer me an even lower salary or try to impose a pay cut. And I was like, No, thank you. This is my career. You're
Starting point is 00:22:12 welcome to find a volunteer who's looking for something to do in the evening if you'd like. But the reason you liked my resume is because I'm a professional. Exactly, exactly. And yeah, I totally agree. That's just one of my kind of little things that drives me nuts because originally when I moved to Toronto, my goal was to find a role in the arts industry. Not necessarily, you know, a filmmaker kind of position or whatever, but just some kind of office job in the arts. I was very, I'm like, I'll take anything. But the more I applied, the more and the more I found out like, okay, how much is that job actually paying once that, you know, I asked how much, but the salary expectations or whatever. Um, I was just shocked at how low it was compared to other industries. Like, it's just shocking. And there, and when I'd be like, well, no, that's way too low. They'd be like, it's okay. There's other people that'll take it. And it's just like,
Starting point is 00:23:04 well, how can I, you know, compete with someone that's going to work for like $20,000 a year? Well, I like to point out you usually get what you pay for. Yes, absolutely. I totally agree with that. So to wrap up, since you have been kind of blogging for two years now and have quite a bit of experience from your personal experience, which I think is very valuable, what kind of, you know, few pieces of advice would you give for any millennials out there that are just starting out their personal finance journeys or are just finishing up school? And especially for those who want to work in the arts industry? I think for working in the arts, networking is absolutely your best bet, which is horrible. And I'm terrible at it. Everyone I know says we're terrible at it.
Starting point is 00:23:52 But especially if you're finishing up school, you have your strongest network that I think you will ever have right there. To this day, still the people that I go out of my way to call or to beg for help or when I need to fill a position are still the people that I went to college with. Even my last job had a lighting aspect to it that I had to run that I didn't 100% know how to do. And I wound up calling one of my friends from college at all hours of the day going like, can you tell me how to do this still? Because it's such a strong network. And there are times where he calls me and he's like, I have to write up this paperwork that I don't even know what this is. And I'm like, here, I'll send you a template of one of mine. Like, it's just an invaluable group you've got right there while you're in college. And the other thing is to just emphasize
Starting point is 00:24:33 again, that if you live below your means, you will have like, a long stress free life, I think, you know, like, it's really the thing to do, especially in the arts. Absolutely. I think that's a great point. You said it's stress, it's really the thing to do, especially in the arts. Absolutely. I think that's a great point. You said it's stress. It's a stress free life guaranteed if you live below your means. And that is something that it's funny. I feel like we had to unlearn some of the things that our parents learned because they kind of came from like a wealthier generation.
Starting point is 00:24:59 But our grandparents know exactly what's going on. Yeah, obviously, obviously live below your means. That's why did we forget that by some generation? Does it make any on. It's true. Yeah, obviously, obviously live below your means. That's why did we forget that by some generation? It doesn't make any sense. It's true. So listen to your grandparents. That's exactly,
Starting point is 00:25:12 that is the lesson. Listen to your grandparents. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. To find out more about Melissa and her personal finance journey,
Starting point is 00:25:22 make sure to check out her awesome blog, BrokeGirlRich at BrokeGirlRich.com. And for the show notes, and I'll include anything that we talked about, links and blog posts in the show notes for this episode, make sure to go to MomentyMoHouses.com slash 18. And before I go, I do want to give a few shout outs to some iTunes reviews from my friends from the South America. Thank you so much for leaving me reviews and your feedback. I really do appreciate it. I read every single one and it really does, you know, help motivate me to keep going,
Starting point is 00:25:58 keep making episodes and keep making better episodes. So thank you, Brevo Gall, for saying, podcasting is exciting. Audio is clear and crisp. Content is creative. It's great. She got her hubs on the mic. Yeah,
Starting point is 00:26:13 I'm pretty surprised I got the hubs on the mic as well. She's referring to, of course, my second episode where I interviewed Josh, my husband, about him being a freelancer in the music industry.
Starting point is 00:26:23 So make sure to check out that at momoneymohouses.com slash two um thank you so much for that awesome uh review and the next one i have is from stevenomics he says relatable and practical financial podcast for millennials well thank you so much that is exactly what i'm going for so thank you so much for that feedback. I am going to keep on trucking. And the last one I have is from amastroy2017. And they say, I stumbled upon this new personal finance podcast and look forward to having it in my arsenal of podcasts in the future. Jessica is very open about her own information, which is great. And the guests so far have been very informative.
Starting point is 00:27:02 Looking forward to hearing more about company employment plans for nonprofits such as 403B and 457 since I am facing the dilemma of enrolling my 403B right now. Okay, well, don't really know what those are. However, thank you for your feedback. I will look into that and see if I can find an expert on that for a future episode because I think, you know, if you're looking for information about that, about there's a bunch of other people looking for that too. So thank you so much for your,
Starting point is 00:27:31 uh, iTunes review. And if you want a shout out on a future episode of my podcast, all you have to do is leave me a review on Stitcher and or iTunes, both either, which one, whatever, it doesn't matter.
Starting point is 00:27:41 I'll take whatever you got. Um, and thank you so much for listening to this episode. I will make sure to see you back here next Wednesday. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.

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