More Money Podcast - 083 The Simple Genius of the Canadian Couch Potato Method - Dan Bortolotti, Blogger at the Canadian Couch Potato & Financial Planner

Episode Date: January 18, 2017

Dan Bortolotti, better known as the Canadian Couch Potato, chats with me about all the ins and outs of index fund and ETF investing. Long description: For this episode, I interview a man many people know just as the Canadian Couch Potato. Dan Bortolotti started his Canadian Couch Potato blog in 2010, and it has since become one of the go-to online resources for learning about DIY investing. I can't tell you how many people I know who swear by his model portfolios! And if that wasn't cool enough, Dan recently started his own podcast specifically to teach people about index fund and ETF investing. Besides being a very popular blogger, Dan is also a financial planner. I was lucky enough to sit down with Dan face-to-face for this interview, and man did he not disappoint. He really does know his stuff and got me fired up to really look at my investments and change things up (which I did and will write about very soon!). Dan also shares a number of great investing resources that I'm gonna include here, and I hope you all take advantage of the $50 bonus you can get when you sign up with Weathsimple, one of the major robo-advisors in Canada that makes ETF investing...simple. Helpful Resources The MoneySense Guide to the Perfect Portfolio Wealthing Like Rabbits by Robert Brown Stop Over-Thinking Your Money by Preet Banerjee Millionaire Teacher by Andrew Hallam The Value of Simple by John Robertson Check Out the Canadian Couch Potato Podcast Canadian Couch Potato Podcast: Your Complete Guide to Index Investing Follow Dan Bortolotti Follow Dan on Twitter Connect with Dan on LinkedIn For more podcast episodes, check out the podcast page. Show notes: jessicamoorhouse.com/83 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello. Welcome to episode 83 of the Momoney Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse. Thanks for joining me for another week. I'm really excited you're here. Last week was a bit of a crazy week for me. I announced to the world that I finally quit my nine-to-five job and I'm officially a self-employed person. I'm an entrepreneur, which sounds crazy to me, but so far so good. It's been a very busy week, all good things, and I'm really, really excited to see what happens in the coming months. But for today, I'm really excited to share this episode. It's one that I actually recorded back, I believe, in the summer because it was also a very crazy time. Me and my husband just bought our first home, and we were actually in the middle of moving to our new place and getting out of our apartment.

But I secured this interview, and I did not want to miss it because I'm a huge fan. And it was totally worth it. He's an amazing person. And who am I talking about? I'm of course talking about Dan Bortolotti, better known as the Canadian couch potato. Um, lots of people I know, uh, kind of use the strategy that he preaches on his blog, the cash potato strategy. And basically what he started his blog a while back to educate Canadians and Americans, everybody, about index funds and ETFs or exchange-traded funds and how to use the couch potato strategy to basically kind of do-it-yourself invest and take advantage of lower fees and get more bang for your buck when it comes to your investment. So I'm excited to chat with him about this. He's also, he used to be a journalist, but now he's also a licensed investment advisor.

And not only that, he has written nine books. And he's not like nine, that's a lot of books. So he's a very smart man. He knows exactly what he's talking about. And I'm excited to share this episode with you all about investing. But before we get to the interview, I just want to say thank you to Wealthsimple for supporting the Momany podcast and sponsoring this episode of the show. If you're not aware, which is crazy, who Wealthsimple is, what it is, it is the fastest growing automated investing service in Canada. We're known as kind of a robo-advisor.

You've probably heard that buzzword a little bit. That is what Wealthsimple is. They use smart technology to help you create and manage a diversified investment portfolio, saving you time and money. So if you want to take 2017, this is new year, new you, you want to get your investments on the go and invest in some ETFs

and really stop paying high fees on your investments, Wealthsimple, you'll want to check them out. Go to wealthsimple.com slash Jessica Morehouse. I'll include a link in the show notes. But when you sign up with them, you will get a $50 bonus, and they are awesome. So make sure to check them out at wealthsimple.com slash Jessica Morehouse to sign up. And now to the interview. Thanks, Dan, for joining me on the show in person. This is very exciting. I haven't done one of these in a while.

All right. My pleasure. Yeah. So I want to, you know, everyone knows about you and your blog, but I want to know a little bit more about you. Like, how did you get started in, you know, how did you go to where you are now as like the couch potato man? Yeah, so I had a bit of an unusual journey, I guess, toward what I'm doing now. So I started my career as a journalist. Did you? Yeah, I worked actually as a full-time journalist for about the first 20 years of my career.

And along the way, I'd done a lot of work for Money Sense magazine, but I never really wrote about investing. At the beginning, I wrote more about just sort of lower-key personal finance things, how to, you know, smart shopping and things like that. It wasn't investing-focused. In 2008, Money Sense did a really interesting feature that they called the seven day financial makeover. And what they did was they found, uh, I think it was three couples

and one single person, uh, who were sort of financial basket cases. And they brought them to Toronto and put them up in the Royal York Hotel for a week. And they, uh, subjected them to a kind of financial bootcamp. And so every day they got to work with a different financial expert. And the idea was to try to help them turn around their finances over the course of the week. So Money Sense brought me on as a reporter for that. And I was sort of paired with one of the couples and was following them around till I could write their story. Well, along the way, one of the sessions that they did was a session on index investing. And they brought in an expert who talked about, you know, this relentless erosion of caused by fees and how this was a smarter way to invest.

And I had heard about this strategy, the indexing or couch potato strategy, as MoneySense has called it for many years. But I never really paid a lot of attention to it. It kind of seemed too good to be true. But my interest was captured during that session. So I was kind of there as the reporter, but I think I got more out of that session than anybody else did there. So I spent the next sort of six months, especially reading as much as I could. And then throughout 2009, I just continued to read as much as I could about it. And I started to really feel like this was something that was not well understood among

the Canadian public, and that a lot of people could benefit from more knowledge about it. One of the things I found was that there's all kinds of great resources out there, both online and books on index investing in the US, but there wasn't really a good Canadian resource. So at the end of 2009, it was over the holidays, between Christmas and New Year's, I decided, why don't I start a blog where I can start writing about index investing for Canadians? And that's how Canadian Couch Potato was born. So it was launched right in January of 2010. So it's in its seventh year now.

Wow, that's crazy. And now it really is the go-to website for anything to do with index fund investing. That's where everyone tells me to go and I tell everyone to go. So that's pretty cool. Yeah, I tried to focus specifically on that subject matter. There's lots of good personal finance blogs out there with a Canadian focus, but I just tried to pick this one specific niche and try to make it the number one resource for that specific subject. Absolutely, and I think you did a really great job. And I know part of the website that I love and I know lots of people love

is where you kind of break down. You've got kind of like here are some options or here kind of a breakdown of what you should possibly invest in. I know lots of people kind of abide by that. I have someone I work with, her and her husband, they're like, oh, yeah, we just do the couch potato strategy from your website. So that's pretty cool that you're kind of really affecting, you're really helping Canadians invest smartly like that. Well, one of the things that I set out to do when I created the blog was to make it as practical as possible.

So I didn't just want to talk about the theory behind it, right? It's not really very helpful. At the end of the day, what people want to know is how do I implement this strategy myself? And, you know, you say it's so easy, but I'm finding it quite difficult. So can you help me actually get up and running with it? So on the blog, I do have some model portfolios and some suggestions for how you can get started. And it starts from the most basic, just a single fund, you know, to something a little bit more complicated, which is using index mutual funds. And then there's an ETF option as well. So they get progressively more

advanced, if you will, but it's really just a matter of how much work you're willing to do. The easier solutions are a little more expensive and the cheapest ones do take a little bit of additional maintenance on your part. Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's very, very true. One thing that I'm very curious about, because I feel like I only really started seriously thinking or knowing more about index fund investing and ETFs and everything like that in the past couple of years. But, you know, I've been banking. I've had financial advisors and they've never brought it up. Why do you think that is?

So I think there's a few things going on here. The cynical answer is that financial advisors charge you high fees and they need to try to demonstrate that value in some way. And a good part of what index investing is all about is an admission that it is extremely difficult for anyone to pick stocks or mutual funds or use any other kind of strategy that will outperform the broad market. And so these days you can get broad market index funds for, you know, 0.05%. And so if somebody is going to charge you high fees, they need to be able to justify that. So most advisors have a vested interest in charging you, try to beat the market even though the academic

evidence is pretty clear that only a very small number will actually do it. So that's the cynical answer and there's no question that there's a lot of truth to it. But I think the more subtle answer and so it's something I came to appreciate as I worked through all of the education required to become an advisor. Because as I said, I, you know, I came at it as a journalist as I didn't start. At what point did you go from journalist and then you started the blog to become, you know, working in the industry? Right. So I moved from being a full-time journalist to being, to working towards being an advisor in 2013. So it wasn't all that long ago. So I really just started the formal education process a few years ago and, you know, in my forties. So I'm coming at it from a different

perspective than most of the people fresh out of university who are doing it. So I had a bit more of a jaded eye and I definitely had a bias going in, but you can call it a bias, but it was just really a knowledge of the academic evidence. But as I started reading through all these textbooks, you know, these are all the textbooks that people use when they're studying to become an advisor. I mean, they basically started from the premise that your job as a financial advisor is to beat the market. And they gave very short shrift to indexing as a strategy. You would find a few paragraphs on index investing as a strategy followed by entire chapters on active strategies for which there is precious little evidence that they actually work.

Because that's the playbook. And I think what, you know, what I was a bit shocked is, I made a comparison one time and said, it's almost like being a biologist and having never heard of Darwin. You know, because, I mean, this to me is such, the overwhelming academic evidence points to one thing, and yet a huge number of practitioners in that business seem completely unaware of it. So that was a huge eye-opener for me. And then I,

so what I'm getting at is I realized that a lot of these advisors who dismiss the strategy as something that doesn't work, yes, their pay might depend on it, but they've never been educated. They just don't know. They don't know. And I can't tell you how many clients I have dealt with when people say, I mentioned indexing to my advisor, I mentioned ETFs to my advisor, and this is what he said. And they tell me the response or they send me emails that their advisor sent them and they're rife with fundamental misunderstandings. Like they just don't understand the strategy at all. So it's not just financial self-interest. I really think it's just a genuine lack of education. And

that is, you know, partly the industry's fault for not training people properly. Absolutely. And it's like, they don't know. And people like me for not training people properly. Absolutely. And it's like, they don't know. And people like me may not know to ask. And so there's just like all of this, you know, just no one knows, which is why I'm glad that you're at least here to educate the rest of us. So, because I'm really hopeful that, you know, especially people my age, millennials will kind of go educate themselves more. And in my experience, more people my age are more interested in learning about their finances

just because most of us graduated during the recession. So we had to learn pretty quickly how to budget and how to pay off our debt because we were broke. So I definitely think this kind of route when it comes to investing is going to be a little bit more popular like 10 years down the road, I'm sure, than just mutual funds. It's definitely growing in popularity already. I mean, certainly it's when I launched the blog, I mean, I kind of started from the premise that, you know, this is a strategy that most people haven't heard of and it's only a tiny minority of people actually using it. I don't think that's quite true anymore. I mean, certainly it's much more popular now than it was even six or seven years ago, let alone 10 or 15 years ago. So we're headed in the right direction.

Absolutely. So I want to kind of talk more about the couch potato method specifically. There's a great section on your website where you have Q&A and you kind of go into where that term got coined and where it all kind of started from. Do you want to kind of share? Yeah, sure. The couch potato strategy is really not new. And even though I use it in the name of my blog, it's certainly not a name that I created. So its origin actually goes back to the early 90s. It was created by another journalist, an investment writer for the Dallas Morning News in early 1990s. And at the time, there were no ETFs available, that rather than picking a portfolio of mutual funds or buying individual stocks, what if you were to simply buy an index fund that tracked the U.S. stock market? Because it was a U.S. writer.

50% of your money goes into this index fund that tracks the U.S. stock market. 50% goes into an index fund that tracks the U.S. bond market. 50% goes into an index fund that tracks the U.S. bond market. It couldn't be simpler. And he'd done some backtesting, you know, saying over the last 20 or 30 years or whatever it was that that, you know, the performance would have been whatever it was, it was quite good, and it would have beat the majority of mutual funds

with a similar mix. And so he said, you know, anyone who can fog a mirror and divide by two could maintain a portfolio like this. And so he said, you know, behold, the couch potato portfolio, because the idea being it was so simple that you could be a lazy investor and still do it. So when Money Sense magazine was launched in Canada, which was in the early 2000s, the editor at Money Sense magazine was aware of this work. And so he brought the couch potato portfolio to Canada. And so Money Sense started writing about the couch potato using the ETFs that were available at the time, as early as about 2003, 2004. And so when I launched the blog years later, I just picked up on that name.

So I like it. It's catchy and it's fun. I have in some ways come to regret the name because I, well, I feel like it's too often being interpreted as an investment strategy for people who are too lazy to look into more advanced strategies and not smart enough to do something more sophisticated. And nothing could be further from the truth. Just because it's simple does not mean that it's for simpletons and it does not mean it's simplistic. So I, in some ways have come to have to explain that to some people. We, you know, talk to a lot of people who have very large portfolios, you know, I have $2 million. Why would I use a couch potato portfolio as though I could do much better? And we say, well, forget about the name. Let's look at the reasons why it works. And then you'll see it works just as well for large portfolios.

Do you find that a lot of people think that they need something more complex if they had a lot of money to make more money? And they think that if something's too simple, then it's like, well, then I just won't make anything. Absolutely. I mean, in fact, I would say that like you had asked a little bit earlier about why more people haven't embraced this. And we laid a lot of the blame at the feet of the financial industry. I think investors have to take some responsibility for it as well because this strategy is no longer a secret. It's very well known. And a lot of people who have read the evidence and understand the strategy cannot bring themselves to embrace it because it feels too simple for them. And I can't tell you how many people I've talked to over the years and, you know, young people just getting started.

They only have a few thousand dollars to invest and they're already saying your model portfolios are too simple. I don't want three or four funds. I want 10 and I want to do this and that advanced strategy. And I say like you haven't even demonstrated that you can get market returns with a simple portfolio. Why don't you do that first? And then if you really want to, you can start to look at more advanced strategies. But even then, I tell people, we do this all day. It is for a living. We manage over $200 million for clients. This is the strategy we use. It's not because we're not smart enough to think of something better. Yeah, it's like if it works, then just keep doing it. Exactly. And so I think

that we are, as humans, just hardwired to resist simple solutions. And we really do, on a deep level, feel that simple is an inferior solution to something complex. And in fact, in investing, it's usually the opposite. Absolutely. So you are a fee-only advisor, right? That's right. We charge a fee-only advisor, right? That's right. We charge a fee based on assets under management. So what is the difference and the benefit to going with a fee-only advisor? And again, this is something that I feel like a lot of people either don't really know a lot about or they're kind of afraid because they're like, oh, I have to put up money up front, but I could just go to the bank.

They're going to help me for free. But really it's not free, but it feels like it's free. So what would you say to that? Yeah, I think it's really important for people to understand the different ways that advisors are paid. And there's a lot of confusion around these terms like fee only, for example. So just to give you the brief overview. So when we say we're a fee only advisor, what that means is the only way that we are compensated is by fees paid to us directly by our clients. So that means that we are not paid by the fund companies of the products that we use.

We don't receive any kind of commissions. So if we recommend a specific product for a client, we don't get paid by the product provider. We only get paid by them. So the value of that is there's no conflict of interest, right? So we use ETFs with our clients. Whether we use ETFs from Vanguard or iShares or BMO or any of the other providers, our only criterion is which is the best one for the client because we get paid the exact same no matter what we use. So we're never in that kind of conflict of interest position. Contrast that with advisors who

are paid by commission, which means that you as an investor pay a fee to the fund and a portion of that fee goes to the advisor who recommended it. Well, the problem there is you've got – there are certain companies, for example, who only sell their own proprietary funds. And so there might be much cheaper alternatives available, but the advisors don't have any access to them. And you also might have a situation where two similar funds from two different companies pay a different commission. And now the advisor is in a conflict of interest because it's more advantageous for him or her to

sell you the fund that pays him or her a higher commission. So I think it's really important to get away from that kind of commission based structure and understand that, you know, the only one paying you as an advisor should be the client. Yeah, no, and I think that's, you brought up a good point. You know, most financial advisors that do work for an institution, there probably are lots of conflicts of interest that you don't really think about because they want to reiterate, just so you know, I may be pushing, you know, this product because I work for this institution, but it's because it's the best product. It's like, but you also work for that institution.

So it's a bit conflicting. Yeah. And certainly, as I said, there are some companies who only allow their advisors to deal in a small menu of funds that are run by that company themselves. And so, you know, whereas a fee-only advisor who isn't tied to a commission structure can really offer their clients any product available. And they have no vested interest in, you know, using a product that has a higher fee or a product that has a higher commission because they're not paid that way.

Absolutely. higher fee or a product that has a higher commission because they're not paid that way. Absolutely. So if someone wants to change up their – or they're just beginning to invest or they want to change up their investments and they want to go this couch potato method and they don't really know where to start, what would you suggest that they do right away? So the first thing I would say, the overriding concern is keep it simple. I think the biggest problem for new investors who want to embrace this strategy is they get overwhelmed by the amount of choice available. And they get way too tied up in the small details and they don't see the forest for the trees, as they say. So, I mean, the overriding message would be try to keep it simple. To get more specific than that,

I would say that for people who have a relatively small amount to invest, I'm talking like if you're just getting started, you've got, let's say, less than $10,000 or $20,000. I would try to look for a solution that is very easy for you to manage. So one of the options that I've recommended on my blog before is the Tangerine Investment Fund, so offered by Tangerine, the well-known online bank. They offer a number of balanced funds, which means that you don't have to tinker with any of the individual moving parts. You just pick the fund that is most appropriate to your risk level and you can contribute any amount of money you want. So if you're the type of person who, you know, you're contributing 50 or 100 bucks a month,

it's the ideal solution because every dollar gets invested right away. You literally sign up for the automatic contribution and then you can just kind of sit back and watch it grow. But that option is a little bit more expensive than some of the other ones. An increasingly popular option for people like this is to use a robo-advisor, which many people will be familiar with. So a robo-advisor is going to have a similar sort of idea, but rather than using an individual balanced mutual fund, they're actually going to build a portfolio of ETFs for you. The good news is you don't have to pick the ETFs

because those are already chosen and you don't have to make ETF trades. So you don't have to buy and sell individual funds, which makes things much, much easier for investors making small contributions every month. And the other good thing about it is a number of these advisors offer, you know, no fee for the first few thousand dollars you invest or for the limited period. And then ongoing, the fee is quite low.

It's usually around maybe half a percent plus the cost of the ETFs might be 0.6, 0.7, somewhere around there. So it's pretty low cost. Yeah. Another option that I've really liked and has been around for a long time, Money Sense magazine has offered this option for many years as well, is TD's E-Series index funds. So this is a family of low cost index mutual funds. Unfortunately, it's available only if you have a TD account. So if you happen to work with another brokerage,

you can't get access to the funds. But if you open an account through TD, you can use these mutual funds. They are not ETFs, and they're a little bit more expensive, but they use the same strategies. And the advantage of those is that you don't have to pay a commission each time you buy an ETF, which with an ETF you typically do pay a commission when you buy.

So again, good for smaller accounts. Although I have to say we have helped do-it-yourself investors set up portfolios with the E-series funds for a few hundred thousand dollars. So I don't want to suggest that they're only for people with very small portfolios because it's not true. And then the final option for DIY investors who are willing to put a little bit more work and effort into it is to build their own ETF portfolio. So that requires that you open an account with an online brokerage and you get familiar with buying and selling ETFs. So it takes a little bit more skill, but with a little bit of practice, it's not particularly difficult. And on my blog

and on many other blogs, there are model portfolios to help you get started so you don't have to get bogged down in those product choices. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, in my mind, it's like, it's, I like kind of like the very do it yourself thing because I do see there's lots of benefits, it's cheaper and, and everything like that. You have more control over it, you know, in my mind, it's like I like kind of the very do-it-yourself thing because I do see there's lots of benefits. It's cheaper and everything like that. You have more control over it. But also, yeah, it seems a bit more risky because it's like what if I make a mistake and it's on me? So, yeah. Yeah, and I think that – I think sometimes people underestimate the challenges with ETFs because if you have not traded on a stock exchange before,

it's a little intimidating the first time you do it. And with a mutual fund, if you want to invest $5,000 in a mutual fund, you type $5,000 and hit buy. With an ETF, you have to figure out the number of shares you need to buy and you have to place the order properly and sometimes the order doesn't get filled right away. And having worked with dozens and dozens of do-it-yourself investors, helping them set up the portfolio, I just know it comes easier to some people than others. Some people get it right away. Other people are really nervous about doing it.

So you need to know your own comfort zone and try to stay within it. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you've been blogging for almost seven years. I'm surprised you've had that much to say, quite honestly. That's a long time to talk about one specific thing. What do you see, what do you kind of predict will be kind of the change for the next couple of years? Like we kind of talked about how more people, you know, the couch potato strategy is definitely becoming more popular. But what are you kind of seeing in your business? Yeah, you know, even though I've been doing this for a long time, I'm definitely blogging less often than I have in the past. And certainly that I feel like I've covered all of the important, you know, core issues. But the interesting thing about this business is that it does keep evolving. Yeah. And I can look back at some of the blog posts I wrote in 2010, 2011 and see, wow, you know, we've come a long way since then.

Things have really changed. One of the recent changes in the industry I think that I'll probably be writing more about is this move towards what are called smart beta funds. And really what this is trying to do is look at index investing in its most basic form and kind of take it to the next level. So there are some strategies for building indexes that are a little different from the more traditional ones with the idea being that they can deliver higher returns. So they're a bit complicated. They are, like most things in the financial industry, subject to a lot of enthusiastic marketing on the behalf of the people who sell the products.

So I think what I'd like to do is try to help people navigate that increasingly confusing marketplace of ETFs and help them make better decisions. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was a pleasure picking your brain. All right. My pleasure.

Thanks for having me. You're welcome. And that was episode 83 with Dan Bertolotti, the Canadian Couch Potato. You can make sure you keep up with all of his musings and information. He is an awesome resource for everything index funds and ETFs at CanadianCouchPotato.com. I have several friends and lots of readers and listeners that swear by his methods. If you want to DIY invest, he is the guru to check out. So make sure to go to CanadianCouchPotato.com. I will include a bunch of awesome stuff, of course,

in the show notes, JessicaMorales.com slash 83 that you will not want to miss. And speaking of investing, have you thought about using a robo-advisor? I actually have started reorganizing some of my investments and I've taken the plunge and have invested a big chunk of money with some robo-advisors. And so far, so good. Really like it compared to paying really high fees with mutual funds. So if you are in the mood to do the same, I highly recommend you go to Wealthsimple.com slash Jessica Mora so you can get a $50 bonus when you start investing with them.

And if you're kind of like, ah, I don't have that much money to invest. That's okay. That is okay. Because their Wealthsimple basic plan, their starter plan, you need zero to $100,000. So you don't need any money to start off. You can have as little as just a couple hundred bucks. So don't ever be afraid to start investing because you don't think you have enough money. I think that is a big misconception that you have to already be rich to afford investing. That is not true. And Wealthsimple is definitely a resource you should check out. And they really make it simple for you. Hence the Wealthsimple name. So make sure to go to Wealthsimple.com slash Jessica Morales to sign up and learn more about how to get your investments right this year in 2017. Now before I leave, I want to give some shout outs I haven't done in a while to a couple

iTunes reviews. Make sure to if you're listening and you really enjoyed this episode to give me an iTunes review. You could do it on your app or on iTunes desktop, but just do it and I'll give you a shout out on a future episode. So I am going to start with, oh, I've got one from someone I know, Erin Burey. She was actually a guest on this show and she says, I'm a longtime listener and recent guest of Jessica's podcast and I'm a big fan of the interviews. I've followed people like Preet Banerjee and Gil Vazox late for years, so it's cool to hear very candid interviews with Jessica. Also, Jess has a great laugh, so that helps. Oh, good.

I'm glad someone likes it. And I appreciate her stories about being a money-savvy millennial. Her personal stories make it more relatable and enjoyable. Well, thank you so much, Erin. Next, I got one from David R630 from the US of A. He says, Jessica is entertaining and helpful. She's an incredible resource for those of us who struggle with personal finances. Keep up the good work. Oh, thank you so much. Okay,

I'll give you one more and then I'll leave you. This is Rich in 10 Years from Canada. Great finance podcast with a Canadian perspective. The content on here is always solid and I love the casual conversation style. Well, thank you so much, Rich in 10 years. And if you want to shout out in a future episode, it's as easy as giving me a review. And I'll say, hey, and read out your review. So make sure to do that. And yeah, I'll see you back here tomorrow for a special episode with a friend of mine who's doing something very cool. She's doing an online investing summit.

And that is all I'm going to say for now. You'll want to check it out tomorrow. See you back here tomorrow. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.