More Money Podcast - 095 How to Rock It As a Financially Independent Woman - Tess Wicks, Host at Words + Money Podcast

Episode Date: March 8, 2017

I interview my American twin in Tess Wicks, a fellow blogger and host of the personal finance podcast Words + Money. For this episode, we chat about it all include making your own money, switching careers and not being afraid to lean in. Long description: Like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, Tess Wicks is my American twin. And what good timing for this episode, on International Women's Day! For this episode, Tess and I chat about it all including making money, being a financially independent woman, switching careers, becoming self-employed and not being afraid to speak up and lean in. We actually got the chance to hang out at FinCon this past fall, and she is just as delightful in person as she sounds in this episode. And there have been quite a few changes since I interviewed her. Instead of switching her brand to Wander Wealthy, she's switching to Creative Profit Co., with a focus on helping businesses as well as individuals with their finances. I know I could just be saying this because we're so alike, but I see some big things coming from this girl. She's just so passionate about helping people, I know she's going to make a great difference in so many people's lives. Take the Get Your Financial Life Right Challenge Sign up right here to start my free 10-day email course that'll teach you the most important things you need to do to fix your finances. Some of Tess' Best Blog Posts How To Create Passive Income With Rental Properties A Day in Monaco on a Budget The Capsule Wardrobe: How to Cleanse Your Closet What You Don't Know About Your Credit Card Balance and How Interest Works Follow Tess on Social Like Tess on Facebook Check Out Tess on Instagram Follow Tess on Twitter Connect with Tess on LinkedIn For more podcast episodes, check out the podcast page. Show notes: jessicamoorhouse.com/95 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 95 of the Mo Money Podcast. I am your host, Jessica Morehouse. Thank you so much for joining me for another fabulous episode. I am so excited to share my next interview. It is with a girl who literally, she's got to be my American twin or something because the moment we met online, I think first, I was a guest on her podcast. And then of course, I wanted her, once we started chatting, we got along so online, I think first, I was a guest on her podcast. And then, of course, I wanted her once we started chatting, we got along so well. I'm like, you need to be on my show. And then we met in person back in September when we both went to FinCon, that big nerdy personal finance conference to keep yabbing about. And oh,

yeah, we were just like, got along straight away. And so I'm so excited to finally have her on my show. Now Tess, Tess Wicks, you can find more information about her at TessWicks.com. But she is also a fellow female podcaster at the Words and Money podcast, which I absolutely love. But she also has a blog, a YouTube channel and is doing a lot of amazing stuff in terms of financial literacy, specifically for women. And yeah, anyways, this episode is one of my faves because I did not write any questions because I knew we would not run out of stuff to talk about. And I was right because I, you know, started yabbing with her and then an hour flew by and then I realized, wow, we haven't even started the actual interview. So let's do that. So I know you're going to love all the stuff we talk about.

We talk about personal finance, being a woman in today's world, being a feminist, being a career person and making your own money. So we kind of go through a lot of different topics, but I think you are going to love this one. So let's get to it, shall we? Thank you, Tess, for joining me on the show. I'm excited to chat because we already talked for about an hour before this. Yes, we did. So I don't think we'll have plenty to talk about because I had to be like, all right, let's turn on the record button here. Or we'll have plenty to talk about because I had to be like, all right, let's turn on the record button here. Or we'll have nothing to talk about.

Or we'll have nothing. Maybe we talked about everything. No, I don't think so. I think so. But for some of my listeners, you may have listened to my podcast episode when I was a guest on your show, which I was so happy to do. It was such a good time. So now I'm kind of doing the reverse. You're on my show.

So thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Good old switcheroo. Switcheroo. Because you are absolutely the American Jessica. We are like twins. Sisters from another mister.

Totally. Like from different nationalities. I know. And we're not that far away. You're in Chicago. I'm in Toronto. That's relatively close. Just like a seven hour car ride. I need to make that drive someday. Yeah. Let's both just meet midway. How about? We could meet in like Mackinac Island or whatever that thing is called.

I don't know what that is, but sure. I'll meet you there. It's like a wonderful island in northern Michigan slash Wisconsin, wherever. I would like to go to Michigan. That sounds nice. Michigan is beautiful. That's what I hear. Like northern Michigan.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Not the other part. Not Detroit. Although it's getting better. It's getting better. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So let's learn a little bit about you, Tess. Let's kind of start from the beginning because, you know, where you started, where you are,

it's a very interesting journey you've been on so far, I think. Yes. So I am an Iowa girl living in Chicago. You were on my show in the wee days. My show used to be called Words and Money and it has rebranded to Wander Wealthy. So I'm a blogger and a podcaster at wanderwealthy.com. But I didn't start like that when I graduated from college. I had studied actuarial science, which is the merriment of statistics and finance and is very, very nerdy. So you had to take all those statistics classes that always sounded so terrible when I was in university. Yes. I had to take tests that I kid you not are called models of life contingencies, which means you go, okay, what is the likelihood if mommy dies that daddy lives? Or what is the likelihood if

it was more like male, female, but I kind of like to flip it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. That's crazy. Yeah. Talking about death got to be kind of the norm just because you were talking about like huge data pools of people dying, not people, records. Right. We call them records. The people are called records? Yeah, we just refer to them as, like, records. Okay, to have that kind of separation. Yeah, they had social security numbers attached to them, so there were lines of records that were, like, you know,

you knew them by social security number. And then I used to say that in my old job I did retirement, and we'd have to like consolidate data, which sounds like a big word, but it's really just like make sure the data from this year matches the data from last year. And if it doesn't, you have to figure out what happened to it. And the best, like the best case scenario for my job was that they just like all died. So we could just be like, well, they all died and they're gone. So not a problem anymore. Right.

We like to say that we spent hours wishing they were dead. People were dead. Um, cause you had to like submit them to the social security world. And you know, when people die, like social security, they're supposed to be notified or whatever.

Wow. Yeah. Sorry. Big tangent. No, I, that's really interesting. Cause honestly, I actually have a friend who's an actuary. And

I swear every time we hang out, me and my husband are like, can you please explain what your job is again? Because we still don't get it. It's very complex. I didn't know what I was doing for like the first four years of my life as like claiming myself as an actuary. Yeah. Okay. So it's all talk a little bit. I don't know. That's it's, but you're not an actuary anymore. I'm not an act. So I left my job, um, would be like a year and a half ago now. And I did that kind of on this long, uh, inner feeling of just needing to explore other things. So I did college and I did

the first few years of my professional life only focusing on the world of actuarial science, which is, to be honest, like a lot of guarantee. Like you're guaranteed a job. Is that why you kind of went, like, is that why you wanted to do that in college? Like, why would anyone choose that? I'm just wondering. I chose it because I was good at math. I knew, I didn't understand what it was. And I'm kind of that type of person who I love learning and I love figuring things out. So I wanted to figure that out. Um, and then I, I just didn't think there was like, I didn't, I wasn't someone I'm't someone, I'm not, this is hard to articulate. I know.

I'm someone who like, when I start something, I'm like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. And then I do it. And it's funny to say that now because things have completely changed. I know. But sometimes it's hard when you have a goal and you're like, this seems hard to accomplish. Oh, I'm definitely going to, I'm going to show me and then you spend the years accomplishing it or trying to accomplish it. And then you do and you're like, oh, okay, that's my whole, I mean, for me, that was my film degree. Five years learning to become a filmmaker. And here I am not filming.

Well, and I think that you kind of get into it. And then you're like, oh, yeah, this is like oh this is what I worked so hard for yeah and that's really sad to say because I have plenty of friends who are doing very well and very happy with the career

that we had together but for me it didn't fulfill kind of what I really wanted and I hate being like I need to find something I'm passionate about And then, but for me, I just, it didn't fulfill kind of what I really wanted. And I hate being like, I need to find something I'm passionate about. Yeah. But you do. And I think maybe not, I feel like maybe passion is the wrong word, but fulfilled very much so.

Like, I feel like maybe you shouldn't be like, or it shouldn't, isn't exactly what I mean. But, you know, it's not realistic to think that you should be excited to go to work every day, but you should absolutely not dread it. A happy medium, right? Yeah. And I, I let myself get overworked really quickly and that kind of led to my displeasure with where I was. And I was like, there's no way out except for literally cutting the cord. And that's what I did. So I cut the cord. And then I had started a podcast with two dear friends of mine called Cheated at Her Way. And it's still running, still going strong. Amanda Bolin is an amazing host on there.

And we had started that. And it was interviewing entrepreneur women. I worked on a lot of the audio and content side of it. So I listened to all these interviews week after week after week. And I was like, ah, this lights a fire under me to leave. So I left my job and then got connected with some writing opportunities through that, which I never thought of myself as a writer, but became a writer. Um, little had I like realized I was doing all this content for this podcast. Um, and then through the writing that I was doing and the, the podcast working on the podcast, I was like, I can do this for myself

and for my own brand. If I'm going to be doing this, I might as well build up my brand. And I went through a period of like, all right, what's my passion? What am I going to hone in on? And for me, personal finance has always been, it's, it's came, came, come, I don't know. It's come very easy to me, um, or maybe more natural, I guess. Um, not so much easy, but really I didn't have a lot of knowledge around personal finance. I had a lot of knowledge around corporate finance and, you know, people dying and how much that would cost. But not so much like, what do I actually need as a 24-year-old woman to be thinking about?

And so, but it came really naturally for me to go research that and then teach others because of my background and the way I am analytically and with finances in general. So I was like, I want to teach other women how to do this. Um, because it's a conversation we don't have a lot. And so that's kind of how my, my blog and my podcast got started was I wanted to share the knowledge and show that finance didn't have to be so like, oh, doom and gloom. Your dad's financial planner in a suit. Yeah. Being scary and stuff. Yeah. And is that why you're also like, because you're very specific with you want to help

women. And is it because you just find that there aren't the resources out there or the conversations just aren't being had or women just are afraid to even talk about it? I think the main thing, and it's very much evolved now, but the main reason I started was because I remember being in my finance classes in college and I was one of four women in my class of 24 people. So it was mostly men. And the professor would ask a question or we would, you know, raise our hands and have talking points and whatever. And I'd have all these questions, but I was afraid to ask them because they were very basic questions about taxes or things that I felt like I should know. And I just didn't know them. But I felt like all my male counterparts knew the answer.

But I think it could be just a personality thing. But in my mind, I was like, men are just more confident when it comes to knowing about this. And I don't know if it's because they, I have all my own theories and I think everyone has their own, but I think men grow up in society knowing that they're going to, no one is going to save them, right? Like they don't grow up in a society where it's like, oh, you have your Prince Charming who's going to like whisk you away. And although now as like me being a feminist and being like, I'm going to work, I'm going to work. I'm going to be a working woman. I'm going to buy my own shit. I'm going to work. I'm going to work. I'm going to be a working woman. I'm going to buy my own shit. I'm going to take charge of my life.

I still grew up watching Disney Channel movies. You know, it's like that's still embedded in my personality. So when I grew up through the times, money wasn't a natural thing that I was like, this is something I should pay attention to. And that's kind of where I felt like it fueled. And so anyway, I felt that way in college. I still kind of felt that way after college when I would have money conversations with my peers only because we were all actuaries and we would talk about that stuff. Um, but I would still be like, how do you even know about this? And they would just be talking about

all these technical things and I had no idea. So I was like, if I, me, Tess, who had this financial education in college still have questions, there's got to be other women out there who didn't even get this education that probably have a lot of questions too. And we're all going through this, like trying to learn how to adult. And I want to help like rally the troops and be like, let's learn it together. Totally. No, I'm, and that's why I think I absolutely love where you're doing so much. Cause I'm like, yes, someone needs to be doing this. I'm so glad you're doing it.

Cause I totally feel the same way. I really wish like when I was even in college or like just graduated that there was someone like you around that I could be like, ah, yeah, someone totally gets what I want to learn, but I'm too afraid to ask and I don't know where to go. And I mean, things were, I mean, at least there were blogs and books and everything like that when I was starting to, you know, educate myself about personal finance. But there isn't as, you know, I'm so glad now there's more and there's podcasts and videos and just a lot more resources out there and people that are positive and want to help people that like just like you. Yeah. I mean, I really see it as I had an older sister.

I still have one. Good. But my older sister was around when I was going through high school. She was going to college in my hometown, which was really nice. And so I could ask her about tampons and sex and that stuff. And I was like, what? Now I need an older sister that I can ask about, like how paying taxes and I don't know, like, is it legal to do this?

Yeah. Like, how do I do, how do I understand my credit card? Because quite frankly, they're confusing and like, what's the credit score? And it's like, those aren't as appealing questions, but they're uncomfortable questions that we need someone to ask too. And like, I would look for that advice and that kind of guidance from someone like my older sister. So I really want to kind of be that for the, the young women who are graduating college or, or even the women who are in the ages of like 25 to 35 who are still like, I need someone to just answer my dumb questions.

Exactly. And that's the thing. There's no dumb question if you don't know if that makes sense. I absolutely agree. I feel like lots of people don't, and especially women, don't want to talk about it because they're afraid of looking stupid. They're like, oh, I should know the answer, so I won't ask the question, which is ridiculous because it's like, well, how else are you going to know? But if, you know, because there is just this, you know, money is a taboo subject anyway. People get uncomfortable because they feel like it's very tied to their self-worth. And so I'm excited to kind of see what you do moving forward and listening to more of your podcast episodes. But let's kind of jump gears. I love your new name, Wander Wealthy. And

you were telling me earlier offline that you were changing that name because it kind of more represents what you're all about, which is the personal finance aspect, but also, you know, the lifestyle and the travel and things like that. Yes. It, it, it's kind of an encompassment of, is that a word? I don't care. It's the word now. It is now. The idea of it, like, sorry, there's an ambulance outside. There is a siren. It's okay. It's okay. This is Chicago, people. The city. It's the idea that we should use our money towards things that make us feel free and make us feel good. And I want to show women that they can spend their money. I mean, you don't have to just always be budgeting.

Exactly. However, I kind of want to make a shirt that's like, always be budgeting. Oh, I would so wear that shirt. Oh, I would love that shirt. All right, I'm going to put it in the shirt. Please make it just for me, just for me. I will have an order of two shirts. Yes, please.

But like, it's the idea that, you know, you don't always have to be cutting quarters, quarters, cutting corners, and be like cutting things out of your life. It's how do we make our money and managing our money more enjoyable? Exactly. And one thing for me is I think as young women, we have this need and this itch to explore or to have freedom. And travel is really that for me. It's the ability

to kind of travel without having worry about being alone or affording it or staying in a safe place. And I want to show you how you can get that. And whether it's travel or whether it's exploring a life change, like quitting a job and picking up a side hustle or buying a home. That could mean freedom for some people. And so wander wealthy, the word wander is really exploring that world and exploring what freedom is for you. And for me, it's travel or affording my lifestyle of drinking coffee, like ordering coffee at a coffee shop every day because I like the experience of it. And for other people, it might mean something different. And then what does being wealthy mean for you?

So for me, it's being able to go explore and have the freedom to travel and maybe eventually like have kids and pay for their college. But like your definition of wealthy will change throughout your life. And everyone's definition of wealthy is vastly different. Some people would just love to like live in a yurt in Crested Butte, Colorado with my Aunt Nancy. Like live like that off of the land and be free from the city. And then some people might want to live in the city and live in a high-rise that costs a million dollars. It means something different for everyone.

So I just want to provide kind of that platform for you to explore what it means for you and show you how you can achieve those things. I love that. And I think a lot of people that don't necessarily know too much about personal finance or they're just getting into reading blunts and stuff, they may think that, and it's true because there's a lot of, you know, resources out there that kind of make you think that personal finance means,

all right, you're going to have to buckle down and budget and that means you're not going to have fun for a while until your debt's paid off and blah, blah, blah. And yeah, sometimes that is true, but I think we need to think a bit more bigger picture too, and I think that kind of gets lost in translation a little bit. There's a reason we're doing this. There's a reason you're budgeting that you're trying to make more money, do overtime or get a second job. There's a reason you're trying to pay off all your debt is so you can finally afford what you really value in your life. And I think, yeah, lots of people just kind of forget about that court, you know, purpose. Yeah. And, and I mean, it's kind of like, I want people to still enjoy the process. So if you want a Dave Ramsey your debt, go for it.

I mean, I will help you do that, but we're going to enjoy it. You can Dave Ramsey your debt and still like afford to eat out once a week if that's like if that fulfills you or that brings you the most joy. So it's all about, you know, we need to make this, we need to make this entire like personal finance thing that we're doing because we're going to have to do it for the rest of our life. We need to make it sustainable and enjoyable. Exactly. It's not necessarily just like a, you know, a quick fix. There's like, okay, great. My debt's done. Now I could just go back to how I used to live. It's, it's a complete lifestyle. It's like, okay, great. My debt's done. Now I can just go back to how I used to live. It's a complete lifestyle. It's like a lifestyle choice almost. You know, when you are actively choosing to pay attention to your money and be conscious with your spending and everything like that. Like I've said to so many people, like as nerdy as it sounds, once I kind

of discovered what personal finance was all about and how to manage my money properly and all the elements that go into that, it literally changed my life. Like I can't even explain, like I don't know who I would be today if I hadn't kind of stumbled upon a couple blogs and books that taught me about, you know, how to have an emergency fund and how to invest. It's insane. Yeah. And I mean, you just don't know what you don't know. Exactly. And I would say the biggest thing that at least like set, you know, diving into learning about personal finance does for you is it just gives you a lot of confidence in your own self and where you stand and like the whole, like, you don't need a man because

you know how to do it. Like the things that I need in my life to feel confident and in control of my life is like the ability to dig all of my hair out of the shower drain by myself without throwing up and the ability to like manage my finances and make, make money and manage it. Um, and then I'm like, I don't need a man because I can do those two things. I'm good. Yeah. Kinda like, and if you couldn't do the first one, you couldn't have the money to hire a plumber. So exactly. No, it's I completely agree. Like, for me, money absolutely means freedom. And, you know, able to make whatever choices. And yeah, I don't need a man, I have one, and I like him a lot, but I don't need him. I want him, it's a different, you know, and so, and I feel like, honestly, that's,

it makes our, you know, relationship or marriage stronger because of this – the money never gets in the way of our relationship. And that is like the number one cause of arguments and divorce and relationships. I think you'll be so much happier if you're single or with someone when, understand your money and have a game plan and know what your goals are and everything like that. I think it's so cool. Our generation has come up in, in this place. I think there are, there's a really significant number of us who kind of go at like this whole marriage thing, um, and relationships as like a teamwork thing. And it's, that's all encompassing.

It includes finances. Like no longer do you just like send one person in, you both go in because you both want to understand it. And I think that's really, I'm like looking forward to that. No, like I think, yeah,

so much has changed since I think our parents' generation and grandparents where it was usually like, you know, for my parents, it was kind of like the, my mom is like the money manager. And I think for my grandparents, it was probably my grandpa. And it's, yeah, it was usually just like one person dealt with the finances and that was kind of it. And the other person kind of just coasted and just like hope everything's fine.

But now, like from everyone that I know that I talk to, you know, friends, family, everything, it's absolutely a vital, you know, team effort. And there's always conversations, continuous conversations. And it honestly does bring you closer together once you have those really awkward chats about, hey, let's look at how much we're spending this month. And the other thing, this just came to mind thinking about like going in as a couple, the reason I'm very passionate about speaking to women is because I think that the financial industry does a really poor job of marketing to women who are just learning what those behaviors are. I mean, there's still, I think probably more than 90% of financial planners and financial advisors out there are still men. And a lot of

them are older men and they still have those, that kind of, um, traditional way of going about things where they like ask the group a question, but they ask the man and the woman's just sitting there. Um, and it's all about like change, shifting and changing that. And so for me working with, even if it's working with couples, it's like addressing the group, um, or no letting the women know that like her opinion and her thoughts matter, you know, she's in on this too. And I think I just, it's unfortunate, but I think the financial industry still struggles at knowing exactly how to speak to women. They don't, they don't get what's important to us

because we are very different from men. We think differently. We act differently. We make decisions differently. We are sold to differently. We buy differently. And they need to understand that there's a complete shift now

that needs to happen. And we're part of that shift. Yeah. Not just as women, but as personal finance educators. And I'm excited to see. I'm honestly super stoked what's going to happen in the next couple years or decades. I think a lot of good things, I think. Because a lot of people our age, millennials, are really starting to... I think they're looking at their parents, they're realizing, well, I can't have that future. Because, you know, let's be honest,

most of us like graduated probably during the recession. And, you know, it's a tough job market still houses are expensive, we have kind of a rough go at it. So I think a lot of us are paying more attention to our money, because we don't have a lot of it. And we're trying to figure out how can I make this work? Because, you know, things just aren't as easy as, you know, they were in the past. So, but I think it's kind of, yeah, a blessing in disguise a little bit, like we're having a rough go, but I think also that's kind of the kick in the pants. Lots of us need to start paying attention and taking action. Yeah. It's also very cool what our generation is accomplishing.

Yeah. I think that even like financial products have changed from what our parents were used to, as well as like the job. I think the job environment is going to completely change. Totally. There's a lot of kind of looking forward to seeing that there may be more contractors than employees in the future. Um, because as our generation is desiring more of like that flexibility and that entrepreneurship like role, um, and it's just going to be, I think it's going to be interesting what happens and then how we account for that and how we manage that from a financial aspect as well as just a like society aspect. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it's definitely an exciting, exciting time. So before we wrap up, since you are a financial educator, and there's lots of great resources

on your website, and you chat about a lot of great things on your podcast and write about it in your blog, what would you say are some key things that you want women to know about personal finance that they may not know? I know, tough. It's a tough one. Key things. I would say one is, as women, we are very, very good at learning things and implementing things. We just have to get started. So the thing that holds us back is that paralysis of making that first decision. But once we can make it, we can accomplish it. So it's just putting those wheels in motion to if you're just starting out,

just make that decision to either meet with someone or sit down and calculate your net worth, even though it's like this big thing. It's like, even if you just can build that awareness, that one number and say, okay, and then like set goals based off that. So that's one is just like, you're really good at it already because you are a woman and you're powerful and you're smart. Just sit down and do it now. Exactly. Number two is always, and this is hard, but always try to come from a mindset of like

money abundance. Because if you can do that, then you'll make better decisions. So just knowing my favorite, favorite book, which was like kind of a kick in the pants, but so good is Secrets of the Millionaire Mind by T. Harv Eker. He's kind of seems like an old school guy, but when you read it, it's like he like yells at you in certain points or he's yelling at someone and you're like, this guy's intense, but it's true. He has a lot of like money mantras that seem a little woo woo, but it's so important to remember that like money is constantly flowing in our world.

It's constantly exchanging hands and there's no reason that you can't get some of that. Um, so instead of like, it's, it's hard coming from an entrepreneurial standpoint. Sometimes for me, I find myself being like, Oh, I'm just broke this month. Like the money's not coming in. Where, how am I ever going to get out of this situation? And it's like, just remember that money is constantly flowing. There's something that you can do today to create value and exchange that for money in the future. Exactly. That's number two. And then number three is, uh, always negotiate. Everything is negotiable. So, which I think as women, we have a tough time wrapping our heads around or

like it's, it's yeah. Cause you're like, well, what if they rescind their offer? Right. Right. That will never happen. I know, right? And if it does, then they probably didn't have the money in the first place. Right. Exactly.

Then they can't afford you. Yeah. Exactly. It's hard because we do live in this time of like, you got to take what you can get. But I think we've come out of that a little bit and there's a lot more opportunities. You just have to get crafty and look like nowhere to look. And by nowhere to look, it's literally like go on LinkedIn jobs and just look and be flexible. I mean, like, or be, get creative and reach out to companies that might

not consider you or they might not have a job posting for you or something if you like are looking for a job and figure out how you can add value to their organization and reach out to them and also talk to people that like what i found very helpful in my career is talking to people that are in the kind of the role that i want to and ask legit how much do you make or how much should I ask for? And sometimes having that dollar value in your mind, you're like, oh, that's so helpful when negotiating. Yes. I think we get, we almost get scared to ask that question because we're like, I don't want to know the answer until like they make an offer

because I'm afraid that then I'll just like won't be enough or or it'll be like too much that I won't consider myself like able to go for it yeah and both thoughts are just ridiculous just ask it's so much better to know exactly and honestly like sometimes it's we both talked at the same time you go go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, then you can decide if it's going to be a waste of your time or not. Exactly. Exactly. And in my experience back a few years ago when I was switching careers and doing a lot

of job hunting, I found a lot of the jobs would ask me straight up, like on our phone interview, how much are you expecting? And you had to have a number and you wanted it to be right because sometimes they'd be like, oh, okay, sure. And you're like, oh, damn, I just low-balled that. Or they'll be like, okay, great. That's the budget that we're working with. And you're like, okay, great.

So it's good to have that number when you're job hunting. I always hated when people were like, do your research because I'm like, it's really hard to find. But if you spend enough time looking like on salary or glassdoor.com, you can kind of create an ideal benchmark. Never give one number, like always give a range. Make your like, oh hell no number lower than your range. Like always give

a range that's higher than your oh hell no. Exactly. Exactly. And if you can try to push back and be like, well, what's your budget? I'm not uncomfortable giving you a number. Can you give me your budget? And if they don't, then you might have to throw out a number. But like I said, throw out a higher range than your hell no number because otherwise it's not even worth it. Don't even know. And then you'll get the job and you'll be better. You're like, damn, I wish I asked for more money.

Right, right. Absolutely. I had one more tip, but no, I don't remember. Well, if you remember,

you let me know. I'll include it in the show notes for this episode. Okay. Well, Tess, it was a joy to speak with you. It was a joy to speak with you. Well, maybe you'll have me on your podcast again because it's a new name. So it's like a new podcast. It is pretty much a new

podcast. We will definitely work something out. We have too much fun. We have too much fun. I know. It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, thanks again for joining me. And I am stoked to see what you have in store with your new brand and new awesome sauce everything oh thank you and also on your instagram is great I really like your photos bam all right well Jessica thank you so much this was fun this was so much this was so much fun. This was so much fun. The most fun. And that was episode 95 with Tess Wicks, a podcast host over at the Words and Money podcast. You can learn more about her, read her blog and what she is up to at tesswicks.com. I will, of course, include information about her and links to everything in the show notes, which you can check out at jessicamorels.com slash 95. Now, as this episode's freebie, I'm kind of getting more into the spirit of like, you know what, I should have some kind of fun, cool freebie at every episode, really. So I'm

trying my best to kind of whip up some new stuff. One thing that I've recently created that I know you will probably love is my Get Your Financial Life Right Challenge. So if you want to fix your money situation, but you kind of don't know where to start and you just feel like you're kind of, you just feel lost and afraid. been there, done that. That's why I created this 10-step free email course to help you really get an understanding of all the elements that you need to know when it comes to fixing your finances, understanding what personal finance is all about. So sign up at jessicamorehouse.com slash financial life challenge to get started. You'll get your first email within seconds. So make sure to go to jessicamorris.com slash financial life challenge or just check out the show notes jessicamorris.com slash 95. I know you will love it. So thank you again for joining me for this episode. I will see you back here next Wednesday.