More Money Podcast - 109 How to Manage Your Money as a Millennial - Erin Lowry, Author of Broke Millennial

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 109 of the Mo Money podcast. I am your host, Jessica Morehouse. I am so excited that you are joining me for another episode of this show. And for this episode, I'm going to be interviewing a very awesome millennial lady. She was a blogger. She started as a blogger and now she's a full-on author. I'm talking about Erin Lowry from Broke Millennial. So she started BrokeMillennial.com a few years ago and now she has a book called Broke Millennial 2 all about financial management, personal finance for millennials. So I'm very excited to chat with her about her book, how it all came to be and some of the lessons that she really wants other

Starting point is 00:00:45 millennials to know about personal finance. All right, enough of me chatting. Let's get to that interview with Erin. Thanks, Erin, for joining me on the show. I'm excited to chat with you. Well, thanks so much for having me. You are so welcome. Wow. So I've been seeing a lot of stuff on social media about your book, Broke Millennial, probably because we have a lot of the same kind of blogger friends that are just raving about it. So I'm so excited to chat with you about your book, which I think is awesome because I don't personally know of any other personal finance books that really focus on money for millennials. And I think it's definitely needed because lots of the books out there that talk about personal finance are dry, or they just do not kind of hit the mark and deal with the stuff that we're dealing with. So that's really awesome that you were able to write your own book. That's so freaking cool. Well, thanks so much. Yeah, it's been a complete whirlwind. And I've been so grateful for how it's been received by everybody, both in our community

Starting point is 00:01:44 and outside of it. I think that for me, what's been really exciting is when people who aren't money nerds say, oh, wow, this has been so helpful. You make it really easy to understand or it's funny because, you know, money nerds. Well, one thing I struggled with when I was writing it and it was helpful to have some, I call them normal friends, friends who aren't within the personal finance writing community, that some of my chapters, because when you're so used to writing and talking about money, you can kind of default to this. I wouldn't even call it

Starting point is 00:02:17 higher brow, but you make an assumption that everybody has a base level understanding of certain things that is certainly not necessarily the case. So it was a really good practice for me to have to kind of keep stepping back, keep stepping back. And, you know, something as basic as what's an overdraft fee, not everyone necessarily even knows what that is. So having to kind of come down to a, and it's should make it clear, there is no condescending tone in this voice or in the book. That's something that I worked very, very hard to remove because I think that there is a lot of writing in other personal finance books where it makes it seem like everything is black and white. Those are the only two ways to do it. You know, it's my way or the highway. And I very much wanted to make it

Starting point is 00:02:58 mirror the fact that your personal journey towards finance is personal and I'm going to help you get there and we're going to actually let you jump around and kind of find your own path. Absolutely. No, you hit the nail on the head there. Because, you know, when I was in my early 20s, just discovering, you know, how to manage my money, and I did start reading books, it felt like a lot of the books were written by kind of older generational men, and they weren't really kind of seeing life through my eyes so I couldn't really relate they kind of talked you know in a way where yeah they made all these assumptions where I'm like wait what is that and then I have to google what they're talking about to understand the

Starting point is 00:03:34 concept they're kind of talking about so I'm yeah and also you know I really just like how you do kind of have this voice in the book that you, yeah, you're not condescending. You're not talking above people, but you're not talking below people. You kind of have a really great voice that I really enjoyed. It did definitely feel like you touched on a lot of important things that, and a wide variety of things that I think most books don't generally go through. So what I really like is, you know, this is a great book for anyone to pick up and read that they really just need a kind of a, you know, from start to finish, I don't know what to do. How do I kind of, you know, start this journey? And it's

Starting point is 00:04:15 a great kind of guide, which I think is really handy. Well, thank you. You are welcome. So before we kind of touch on some of the topics that you touch on in the book, I would love to know how this all started. Because you also have a blog. And I know that's where kind of things started is called your blogs called broke millennials. Well, how did you know you get the idea to start your own personal finance blog? Super sexy? I'm sure I know. It's like, why? You know, I always kind of get that question. It's like, why did you, of all things, start a personal finance blog? And then how did that kind of evolve into you writing a book about lots of things that you teach on your blog? Yeah, the blog was almost four and a half years ago now. It was January of 2013.

Starting point is 00:05:02 And I always try to say I'm going to tell the short version of this story. I feel like it never actually ends up being short. So for me, it all began. I mean, my journey to money began as a kid. And part of that journey is that my parents were very open and honest when talking about money. And I never once remember there being an ounce of tension in the household. They never argued about it. They always seemed to be a team about it. And so I was growing up, you know, with this mirror of money is healthy, money is okay. Here's how we talk about it. And what you grow up around is normal. And I kind of assumed that that was the

Starting point is 00:05:46 way the world worked, that people just understood how money worked because I did. My parents explained it. And it's important to acknowledge the fact that I was not a math oriented individual by any means. I studied journalism and theater in college. I don't come from a finance background, but I still got it. And so part of my shtick is, hey, if I can trust me, you can type thing. And so fast forward a little bit through childhood to I've gotten to New York City. Now I graduated college in 2011 and I immediately moved to New York City. Well, I went for two weeks to live at my parents' house while I was jobless. And then I got a job and moved to New York City. And the first year I lived here, I worked for The

Starting point is 00:06:30 Late Show with David Letterman as a page. Cool. Yeah. Very fun job. Did not pay well. Yeah. So I also was a Starbucks barista and a babysitter slash nanny to several families in New York City. Luckily, all the kids I worked with were great. Not all the parents were so wonderful. Yeah, I can imagine. And so I kind of went through this journey of not making a lot of money living in New York. My early years here, I made about $23,000. Wow. And I still knew how to control money, though. It wasn't as stressful as it certainly could have been because I understood how money worked. And what then was astounding to me was

Starting point is 00:07:11 about a year after the fact. So one of the women that I had met as a letterman page, a friend of mine, that program only lasts a year. So I had gotten into public relations because I was like craving a steady paycheck where I could just do one job, although that didn't last long. I still ended up side hustling. But, you know, I wanted insurance and a 401k and all of those trappings of quote unquote adulthood. And she had moved to New York City to be an actress. Common story. And at the time she was working as an executive assistant to some women who were higher ups at Viacom and Viacom is the parent company of like MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon, all those companies or production. And, um, she just hated it. And her day was completely packed and she had no time to be going on auditions or anything. And I said to her very bluntly one night, I don't understand why you're doing this because at the time we were 23, she didn't have student loan debt or credit card debt. She wasn't married. She didn't have kids.

Starting point is 00:08:15 She came from a family of comfortable means. So worst case scenario, she could ask mom and dad for help in a tight spot. And I was like, I don't really understand why you're not just waitressing, nannying, doing what you have to do to make ends meet and auditioning, because now seems like the time to do it. Because if not now, life's just going to continue to get more complicated. And she said to me, I don't know, money really stresses me out. I just hope I have enough at the end of the month. Wow. And that was really my light bulb moment because to hear that from someone who came from a relatively privileged background, didn't have debt, truly didn't have many money woes and had that kind of relationship with finance was a bit startling. And so then I kind of started asking around and, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:03 whether it was New York friends or cousins that lived outside of New York, friends that lived outside of New York, just all over the place, I kind of started broaching this topic of money and people did not want to talk about it. And I constantly got shut down. So that's where I came up with the idea to blog, partially because I was bored at work and it felt like a creative outlet. And then also because I was a millennial, like what else do we do when we think we're going to solve a problem? We take to the internet. Yes, we do. So I was like, all right, I'm going to start a blog. And I was honestly did not even know the huge personal finance blogging community existed at the time. So that was a

Starting point is 00:09:41 delight to kind of stumble into that. But also when I started blogging, there was not a wealth of, well, let me rephrase this. When I started, there were not many single childless women living in cities. Most of the voices at that time were couples who lived in smaller areas who had a either two incomes or a you know hyper traditional husband worked wife stayed at home with the kids kind of environment and while I read a lot of those it didn't really speak to me and so that was another thing for me is I wanted to be kind of disrupting what was already there and bringing this different attitude. And the way I wrote was very different because I focused entirely on storytelling. And that's what I kind of parlayed into the book. The book is all

Starting point is 00:10:37 original material, but I was still right in this very both storytelling style and the, my favorite way it's been described so far as somebody said she's not preaching but she's no nonsense it sounds like your older sister talking to you that's a pretty good description but it's also how I talk in real life you know many of my friends who have read it said it sounds like you're in the room oh wow cool well good to know because like when I was reading it the other day, and you know how sometimes when you've got a good book, you're just kind of like reading it and you just hear the voice. It's like you're not even seeing the words. And that's kind of how it felt like to me. It just felt like very, I don't know, natural. I guess I would say

Starting point is 00:11:17 it just felt like a very natural voice. I love that. See, like, that's awesome. So that was really my goal. And the short, I can tell kind of a truncated version of how the book came to be, because people always are curious. It was a little bit of luck, a lot of luck, certainly some hard work. I definitely went through a whole like imposter syndrome crippling moment after I signed the book deal. But what happened was I was on CBS Sunday morning for a segment about millennials in the workforce. I have kind of turned into like a millennial

Starting point is 00:11:51 talking head from time to time for the media where it's like, oh, we're going to bash you for three minutes and then like you come on and defend your entire generation type thing that seems to happen. Yeah, I feel it. I feel you. Yeah. So that's always fun, especially with the title like broke millennial people, I think always assume I'm going to come on and whine. I'm like, oh, you didn't do your research. I'm not a whiner. Exactly. But so I was on CBS Sunday morning. It actually turned out to be a great segment, but I was kind of representing the this is why we are this way in the workforce type thing. And a literary agent in New York City was watching it, saw me, liked how I presented myself on screen. And so he went to my site and started reading

Starting point is 00:12:31 some of my work and was like, ah, you can write too. Excellent. So he reached out to me and asked if he could take me to lunch so we could talk about if I had ever thought about doing a book, which I always had from a young child. I always thought I wanted to write a book. I just thought it would be like a, you know, next great American fiction novel. I didn't think it was going to be a personal finance guide. And, um, I signed with him. He helped me with the proposal process in January. We shopped it and January of 2016. And, uh, in about two weeks I had some bids and I went with Tarcher Paragee, which is my current publisher. So I had signed by February of 2016. So the whole process really happened for me in about three and a half months.

Starting point is 00:13:11 Oh my gosh, that sounds really intense. It was. And then I had to write the book. Yeah. So that was also a very truncated timeline compared to many I signed in February. It was originally due in June. I was like, can we push this to July. So I had from February to July to get out the first manuscript.

Starting point is 00:13:30 My gosh, and you so you know, beyond just writing the book, you still also blogged and did your thing. And you also work, I assume to make money. So that's like a lot to balance. I have been asked a few times how I managed to make it happen and in retrospect I think not to make people hate this comparison but I'm gonna make it anyway I think much like how women sort of forget how painful childbirth is I have started to forget how truly terrible my life was while I was I was working full-time and still freelance writing and running the blog and writing this book. Wow. So admitted, I certainly posted much less on the blog. And I didn't scale back much on my freelance writing because I was angling I was making a

Starting point is 00:14:20 play to get ready to leave my job. So I didn't want to scale back there. So mostly I scaled back on sleep and having a social life. Those were the two things that definitely took the biggest hit at that time. And I was quite unhealthy. There was a lot of takeout. I admittedly gained a significant amount of weight throughout the process of writing this book. So it was almost like I was pregnant. Well, you birthed a book. So it was almost like I was pregnant. Well, you birthed a book. So that's something. I did. Women who have actually gone through a process like my best friend had a baby while I was in the middle of writing this book. She's like, this isn't a funny comparison. My apologies.

Starting point is 00:15:01 Wow, that's yeah, no, I feel you on that front. Sometimes when you're in those situations where you're just doing so much, you just, you get into the survival mode because you know, at least it will end at some point. And then, you know, you look back six months, you're like, I have no idea how I did that. And I don't want to do it again. Yeah. 100% survival mode. That's a great way to describe it. Yeah, for sure. So I'd love to talk about some of the things that you touch on the book. I found it so like, yes, you know, I was just like, you know, even just in the index where you have all the chapters, I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Those are all the kind of elements for, you know, in my life, and I know other millennials that they encounter or they will encounter. And it's great that you kind of give your perspective and your uh you know wisdom for

Starting point is 00:15:45 all of them which i think is awesome some things that i really jumped out to me that i think a lot of people i mean a lot of people when they think about personal finance they'll think about saving and budgeting and debt and investing those are kind of the pillars we get it but there's lots of things that you touched on which i thought i'm like huh i think a lot of people don't pay enough attention to that which they should for instance, choosing the right banking products. Most people, when they need something, they just go to the first thing or whatever is advertised. But it's really important to kind of, you know, really know what products are out there. And I feel like, I mean, I'm in Canada, so there's not as many as in the U.S.

Starting point is 00:16:20 The U.S., there's so many options, which is a good thing because there's so many different ways that you can help and automate and everything like that. So I'd like to kind of first just touch on that. Why did you kind of want to have a section just dedicated to that? And what are some of the products out there, some of your favorites that you think millennials should really look into? Why I touched on that actually had a lot to do with what my full-time job was before I became a entrepreneur, freelancer, blogger, author, speaker, writer, whatever you want to call me. I feel like I just like throw all the titles at the wall, pick what they want to go with. So I worked for a kind of, I guess, fintech startup is the way you could describe it. It was a financial product comparison company called magnifymoney.com. And what we did, they still do, is to compare

Starting point is 00:17:11 financial products and rank them primarily based on what is actually best for you as opposed to which bank is paying the most to get ranked highest on that page that day. And I learned, so I was employee number one at this startup and I got to work directly with the co-founders from the jump and they both had extensive backgrounds in banking and they took a lot of time early on in my time, in my employment there to talk to me about kind of the ins and outs and the sneaky things that banks do. And, you know, they knew the playbook. They had been on the other side. And I learned so much from them. And I just started to realize

Starting point is 00:17:50 very quickly how often that piece of our financial lives, which is arguably the biggest piece since it's where we're putting our money, is the one we don't pay attention to. When I do speaking gigs now, especially with college kids, one of the first questions I ask is who banks at the same bank that their parents do? And almost everyone in the room will raise their hands. And then I kind of get into the point of why, you know, you will comparison shop for every other little thing in your life. Why aren't you doing it for banking? And I make the very bold claim in that chapter that I will get you back the money you spent on the book by helping you switch products. And part of that is because we speak and vote with our dollars. So if you are banking with an institution that is

Starting point is 00:18:38 levying $35 overdraft fees four times a day and reordering transactions, so you went overdraft fees four times a day and reordering transactions. So you went overdraft far earlier in the day than you actually did. Or the savings account is 0.01% as opposed to 0.75 or 1% for those in the U.S. Why? You're being disrespected. That's the way I look at it. I think that, you know, you should treat your money with respect and you should be treated with respect. So why are you, it's kind of like dating a bad boyfriend. Why are you sticking with this person? Just because they have like a cool name or they let you customize your debit card or whatever it is that keeps people at some of these institutions. And so for the Canadian listeners are just like, yes, I'm American. The book is written for Americans in terms of financial products. But I think that the tactics that I lay out are helpful regardless. Totally. So knowing how to find better products,

Starting point is 00:19:31 because we have similar enough systems that it still does. I mean, and yes, you read it, so you can. And we're used to it being Canadians. We're used to reading American like personal finance books. So but yeah, like you touch on a lot of things that like absolutely makes sense for kind of the Canadian financial industry. Absolutely. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. So what are some, you know, I know, you know, America and Canada, we have different products, but what are some of the products

Starting point is 00:20:09 that you personally use or that you personally like to recommend to people? I have three different banks and about, I think it's now up to eight different checking and savings accounts. So checking accounts, I have three savings accounts. I think I'm at five. And part of my strategy is, so one of the, and you can call it silly, I guess it's kind of like a baby gate that I put around my money to help me save more. I have a lot of my savings at a separate bank than I have my checking because it's out of sight, out of mind. So I consistently contribute to that account. Every time I get paid, 40% of my freelance paycheck goes into this account, one of which is called Uncle Sam because it's for my quarterly estimated taxes to the lovely

Starting point is 00:21:01 American IRS. And then I also have a business checking account at a separate bank. And then I have two of my own personal checking accounts, one of which is for bills. I like to kind of segment things out. I'm a very visual person. So I like to be able to log in and kind of see it that way. And then I've got a savings account just for my dog and his emergency fund. I have my own emergency fund. I have a travel savings fund and I have a possibly down payment on a future apartment in New York City. We'll see what that fund actually gets repurposed for in the future, but kind of saving money in there as well. And I bank, I just do internet only banking at this point. I see very little need for the

Starting point is 00:21:44 traditional brick and mortar guys in my personal financial life. I don't deal a lot in cash, for instance, so I don't need to be depositing cash. I go after the higher interest rates. My banks will rebate ATM fees for me. So when I have to go to a traditional brick and mortar guy to get my money out, then I will get the $3, $5, whatever they're going to levy against me, charged back from my bank. So that's kind of my big strategy. I do often, especially when I'm talking in America, Ally is somebody I often recommend just because their interest rates on their savings accounts is currently unparalleled and they don't jerk you around. There are some

Starting point is 00:22:23 banks that will kind of fiddle with their interest rates and they might spike it up to like 1.25% for six months and then it drops back down to like 0.5%. So I like that Ally has stayed steady at 1% for, been with them for about two years now. So, and the other thing that I really value is customer service. So that is kind of something I will test out with a bank before I switch over as I'll try the call-in process or I'll see if they have a chat and how quickly they respond and how long I'm kept waiting because my time is very valuable. So I want to be treated with respect on the customer service side as well.

Starting point is 00:22:57 So it's definitely worth it to put in the time and effort to do your research. I've never even thought of thinking of testing at the customer service before moving financial institutions. But I mean, that doesn't take that long. And what a great idea. Because, yeah, customer service means a lot when you have bad customer service, it makes you want to take all of your money and go to their competitor because you get so angry. Yeah, wouldn't be the first time I'd done it either. Yeah, exactly. That's awesome. So another section of your book that I really liked, because again, I think a lot of, you know, people don't really write about this and traditional personal finance books is the money and relationship situation, especially when dealing with friends.

Starting point is 00:23:34 And I think that's almost some people's first encounter with money conversations. You know, you deal with money differently than maybe your friends, even though you've been friends for years. And I definitely dealt with that when, you know, I graduated university and I was still living frugally and some of my other friends like to spend and it was awkward. And it's like, how do you maintain those friendships? And how do you have those tough conversations? And how do you let those friends not affect your financial situation? Lots to unpack there. I know. I know. And it is hard.

Starting point is 00:24:12 And I did try to be very open about that in the book is that a lot of it comes down to honesty and having what feels initially like those awkward conversations. The other thing I'm very open about is that if you say no enough times, people will stop asking. And it that's a bit of do as I say, not as I do type advice, because my early years in New York, I said no a lot because I wanted to save. And to the point where I did kind of irreparably damage early relationships that I was building with certain people in New York City, because no one likes getting rejected, even if it's just a platonic situation. So if you just keep rejecting people, they eventually just stop asking. Yeah. And I think that that's one thing to keep in mind. Now, that's not an excuse to go out and indulge in every little thing your friends who are out

Starting point is 00:24:58 earning you want to do. Part of it is understanding that you might have a different financial situation. So if your one friend works in finance and you are working in public relations, you're going to have drastically different salaries. Yes. And your friend needs to be empathetic to that as well. So part of it, one piece of advice I give is that you can sometimes counter their suggestion. So it could be as simple as they want to go out to a very expensive restaurant for dinner and you can say, I value you. I want to spend time with you. However, instead of going

Starting point is 00:25:33 out to the steakhouse, could we maybe do a potluck dinner at your place or my place? Or could we maybe just go pick up sandwiches at the deli and go for a walk or whatever it is that you're still offering a solution to the problem that you're creating. I think that's a big part of it. If you just say, I don't want to do that. Yeah. That just kind of leaves it hanging. And then it's awkward for everybody involved. So come to the table with a solution if you're creating a quote unquote problem. But the other thing is, yeah, just having that honest conversation. And maybe it's not just about saying like, I can't, I can't, I can't. Maybe it's saying also, you know, I appreciate you wanting to do that. I'm trying to save to do this.

Starting point is 00:26:13 So I'd rather not spend my money there. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's key. I love that. Don't make a judgment though. That's, that's where it gets in a dangerous territory is like, don't make a judgment on what they want to spend their money on. So saying something like, I don't value that. If you don't say it tactfully, it kind of comes across as like,

Starting point is 00:26:33 you're wasting your money. And this is why I think that. So it is, it's a dance. It's a dance. The other thing I do advise though, is that if what your friend wants to do isn't something you normally would spend your money on. But you've said no three times before. Yeah. Maybe sometimes if if it's not going to bust your budget, you say yes, because don't think of it as spending money to go out to this restaurant that is not your restaurant of choice. Think of it as you are investing in this relationship with your friend and you value your friend. So therefore you are still spending money where you value. And I guess also just the balance of, you know, I felt and you could probably relate, you know, making, you know, $23,000 and living New York, you feel like you are broke and your friends are kind of enjoying their money. You need to find a balance in your life to to not, you know, of enjoying their money, you need to find a balance in your life to to not, you know, just hoard your money, you need to spend a little bit to enjoy a little bit of your life, just, you know, make Yeah, spend it on things that you

Starting point is 00:27:33 value and make, you know, suggestions for if like, we can't afford that expensive restaurant, let's get something a bit cheaper, and we can still have a great time. Yes. Yes, definitely. You know, now we talked about friendships, I'd like to talk about relationships, which I think people have an even harder time talking to their partner about money, which is scary, because it's so vital for a relationship. I think if you're not talking about money, I mean, there's going to be some big problems down the road if you don't know what each other is doing and everything that's going on. So what are some of your thoughts on like, when should you broach the subject of money in a relationship? You know, is there a good way to deal with money together or not? I know lots of people have their own opinions on like, you know,

Starting point is 00:28:19 how to split, you know, your finances or pool it all together. I mean, again, there's no right answer, obviously, but's no right answer, obviously, but I'd love to know kind of what your thoughts on dealing with money and relationships would be for you. I think the right thing for everyone, this is an area where I don't get shades of gray and very black and white is that you have to have a conversation. So you have to get financially naked. That's what I call it in the book and I like calling it. Now, how you're going to handle it after the fact totally depends on you as a couple in your relationship. You know, some people like separate, some people like joint. There's all these different factors to consider.

Starting point is 00:28:55 But one of the things that I think is most important is that around the time, now I would love if everybody brought, you know, credit scores and reports and all that information on first dates. It's never going to happen. I get it. But around the time that you realize, hey, this is someone that I either could A, marry, or if marriage isn't something you're particularly interested in, it's someone that, hey, I'm going to cohabitate with and probably spend a significant chunk of my life with. Once that is kind of flipped in your head and you're thinking of it that way, you need to get financially naked because you need to know what you are entering into, as does the other person. And the way that you can start this conversation, because that's always the first question that I get asked, is I think it's very important that you start it from not any sort of an accusatory place.

Starting point is 00:29:46 I wouldn't just bring it up out of nowhere. I like starting with things like goal setting and asking, hey, so what are your financial goals for the future? Or just something that's really that basic because there's not a whole lot of judgment tied up in that. It's harder to feel self-conscious about. I think people are more likely to share their goals than to be like, oh, this is how much debt I have. And you can also kind of use that as an opportunity to backdoor into the debt conversation because if your partner has then laid out his or her, here are my financial goals, you can kind of then say, so what is standing in the way of you reaching those goals? That's a nice, that's a very tactful way to be like,

Starting point is 00:30:31 how much debt you got? I love that. It doesn't have to happen all at once. I think that's the other big part of this conversation is you do not have to get completely financially naked all in one go. But the other key thing that I didn't bring up first and I should have brought up first, you need to have a really good poker face going into this conversation. And the reason I say that is if you get physically naked in front of someone and he or she laughs at you, you're not going to do it again. Nope. So same with your money. It's such a vulnerable, intimate exchange that you're having. And if you make a snide comment or roll your eyes or sarcastic remark or laugh when your

Starting point is 00:31:11 partner gets financially naked, you're going to have a really tough time gaining back that trust. Yeah. It's all about, yeah, really respecting the other person. Cause yeah, talking about money, it is totally like getting naked. It's very vulnerable and scary. And especially when you're doing it for the first time. But I guess also like getting naked, it gets easier. You get more comfortable with your situation. It does. And then I think once all the cards are on the table, what then becomes easier is you two can start to strategize whether it's in real time in a marriage or whether it's kind of a hypothetical scenario of how you're going to handle things in the future. You two can start to have those conversations and you can start to kind of unpack where you

Starting point is 00:31:57 both might have hangups. You might start to be able to identify where there may be pain points. And I think there will be. I don't even if you're both amazing with money, you're still going to have something that is a little bit of a tension factor around finances. And it might not be right away. It might be in the future. But everybody comes to money with their own different psychological relationship to it. And I think that's the thing that we also have to evaluate beyond just like I'm a spender. He's a saver, vice versa, whatever it is. Everybody's got their issues with money. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:32:30 And you have to acknowledge that in these conversations. Yeah. And I feel like one thing I've learned, like I've been with my husband for 10 years and we've talked about money pretty much from the start because we were both broke at the start and I was still a student. And so we had to talk about like, who's going to pay for dinner or I can't afford dinner. Literally, I cannot afford it. And things evolve just like your relationship evolves. So just because, you know, at the start of your relationship, you feel a certain way and you're like, well, I just can't be with someone

Starting point is 00:32:57 who deals with money like that. I've at least experienced in my life that as we've continued to communicate about money, I've been able to kind of we've evolved together. And you know, some of our goals, some of the ways of dealing with money together has changed. So it's, you know, that's, that's one thing I've learned over the course of our relationship that I honestly didn't expect. I thought kind of what you, you know, what was how you dealt with money at the start was how it would just continue, but not necessarily. And now, you know, probably because I've been talking about personal finance for so long, and I blog about it and have a podcast about it. My husband is finally like really interested in finance. So that's awesome. I think it's interesting to how

Starting point is 00:33:38 your partner's relationship evolves. I've noticed too, with my boyfriend, we've been together for seven years almost, and we've only been living together though for about six months. And it's just been fascinating to kind of watch his evolution from passively listening to me talk about money to being a very engaged participant in not only the conversation, but in his own financial life. And to just see that switch has been very encouraging. I mean, few things are sexier to me, but I am such a money nerd. So totally different. No, I think the one thing that I've also learned is if you're really interested in personal finance and passionate about it, and your partner isn't necessarily, if you really kind of educate them

Starting point is 00:34:25 about why it's so important, not so much like the boring numbers stuff, but really like literally, if you do this, this and this, you'll be able to achieve that thing you never thought possible. And I think that's what's really kind of opened up my husband's eyes is like, oh, so if I just kind of, you know, do this with my investments instead of what I'm currently doing, this could be the result. I didn't think that was possible. That's one thing I've also learned is like when you really show the benefits, they'll actually maybe want to talk about money with you. Yes. And it's that controlling money allows you to have full control over your life. And I think that there are two ways that money works. It's either you control your money or your money controls you. And, you know, that's a difference in my relationship

Starting point is 00:35:10 is I've always been very in control because my family was so open about finances. But my boyfriend comes from a very different financial background than I do. And I really don't think it was until probably the last year that he finally felt in control of his money and his financial life. And part of that is that he's coming to the table with debt, which I talk about a little bit in the book. And that has been a very extensive conversation in our relationship because I have no debt. I'm very debt adverse. So how are we going to handle that? What are we going to do? He had a very ownership mentality over the debt early on being like, I'll take care of it. I'll pay it down. And I said, you know,

Starting point is 00:35:49 for now, yeah, you will because we're not married. So I'm not giving you a penny. But as soon as those papers are signed, it's legally my problem. Yeah. So we need to be a team about this because I want to get it gone. The fastest way to do that is for us to work together. Absolutely. Okay. So there's one other thing I want to talk about because I also really love that you touched on this was about, you know, career wise negotiating your salary, something I believe us millennials are terrible at doing, myself included. I don't think still to this day, I've never negotiated my salary before starting. They've always kind of presented something. Sometimes I'll try to push back, I've never negotiated my salary before starting. They've always kind of presented something.

Starting point is 00:36:31 Sometimes I'll try to push back, but usually it's not the ideal number I always want. So what are, you know, why do you think this is so important for millennials specifically to know? Also, I think we've all just dealt with like careers and the workforce a different way because of, you know, lots of us graduate during the recession and it's, you know, been a kind of a tough job market. Why do you think it's still so important for millennials to know their true worth, even if they're a freelancer, really know how to price themselves and then also negotiate their salary so they get paid what they should? Well, freelancers specifically, I think it might even be more critical because we are so likely

Starting point is 00:37:02 to undervalue ourselves and just you have no easy way to gauge the market. You know, at least the traditionally employed can go into like salary.com, glassdoor.com, these kind of websites that help aggregate what salaries probably are down to your city, which is incredibly valuable information to have. Freelancers don't have that. We have to talk to each other, but so many of us don't for various reasons. So that's one of my big pushes to talk more openly with people about your salary. Even just talking to your friends is trying to normalize this conversation and asking each other like, oh, well, what do you make? And you might not be in the same industry, but it's still good information to have. Now,

Starting point is 00:37:42 why we need to be stronger negotiators? Well, part of it, especially early on in your career, is that if you think about even if you just leave five grand on the table by not negotiating, think about how much that compounds over the course of your career. It's insane how much you ultimately could be leaving on the table. And I don't want to turn it necessarily into like a gendered conversation, but there are so many things out there about how women tend to undervalue ourselves. We tend to come to the table with less demand, well, fewer demands or less, we're less likely to kind of negotiate back. That needs to change for sure. I especially see that more so in freelancing than anything else that a lot of my women colleagues are told that they're taking less than they need. I mean, I've told that to women.

Starting point is 00:38:38 I've been on the other side of this. When I worked for Magnify Money, part of my job was to run the blog. I hired freelancers and at the time I certainly wasn't going to be telling people they were undervaluing themselves, but after the fact I was like, Hey, you really should ask for more. No, that's hard. That's definitely, yeah. And I do believe it's also, yeah, it's especially a problem with women who like, I I've talked to so many men who have the mentality is like, no, no, no, this is how much I should make. Whereas most of the women I talk to, they're like, I just, you know, what's the least amount I am comfortable with? Isn't that so crazy?

Starting point is 00:39:17 It is. And part of it, I think, too, is the scarcity mindset that happens for people. And it happens certainly to the traditionally employed. And when I say that, I mean, you work in an office on nine to five job, you have an employer during post recession and during the recession, even if we had that scarcity mentality, because jobs were hard to come by. And so many people were seemingly it seemed to us anyway, that so many people were unemployed who had done what they were supposed to do. That's the other big part. You had gone

Starting point is 00:39:44 to college, you'd gotten your degree, you'd had high marks, you graduated with honors, and you still couldn't find a job. And so I think we had this scarcity mentality as a generation. You just took what you were given because at least you had something. And now, post-recession, it's still lingering. There are still so many people that feel that way. And especially with freelancing as well, there is very much this like, well, I don't know where my next meal's coming from, to use a cliche. So I'm just going to jump at this, take it, even though I should definitely be getting paid more than this, at least I have something. And I think part of it is also ditching that mentality.

Starting point is 00:40:31 And I think what I've realized now that I'm newly self-employed of about just four months now is instead of, I used to always have the mentality, especially when I just did this kind of on the side, you know, uh, asking for, well, what's the least amount like that? I I'm, I'm always afraid of them saying no. So what's the least amount that I'm still comfortable with? And now I've kind of trained myself to know offer kind of what's my best case scenario. And if they say no, there's always room to negotiate down or it's not worth working with someone who doesn't want to pay my worth. But it's hard to get that mentality because you're Yeah, the scarcity thing like what if they say no, and then I just lost myself this amount of dollars. And part of it is how much work are you putting in to get that amount of dollars? Like

Starting point is 00:41:10 what are you really earning at the end of the day? And for your lucky Canadian listeners, it's a little bit different because your insurance situation is not as absolutely bananas as ours is. But part of it to me when I'm specifically speaking to American freelancers is, all right, think about it this way though. No one is paying for your retirement. No one else is paying for your health care. No one else is handling all the administrative tasks that you're probably doing. So you have to bundle all of those costs into what you're asking for and take out at least 30 percent for taxes. So what are you making after you have put money aside for all of these little things? Because that's the other way to think about it is it's not, oh, I made $400 from this one article that took me six hours to write. All right. But then subtract all of those other fees and how much were you still making an hour? And I think when you structure it like that, that's very helpful. And I'll also give you

Starting point is 00:42:05 like another quick little story. There are plenty of my stories in the book about negotiating, but this actually happened recently. I was speaking to a woman who lives here in New York City. And funnily enough, she was she told me she texted me. It's a friend of mine. And she goes, you know, I'm going in to negotiate at work soon. Any chance I can pick your brain for negotiating tips? I know that there's stuff in the book, but I'd like to talk to you in person. I was like, yeah, I love talking about this. So we met up to have a chat. And, um, at one point I said to her, how much do you make? Yeah. Very bluntly. Because I was like, this is a hard conversation for me to have with you without actually knowing these numbers. And she told me, and I said, I'm not trying to make you feel bad when I say this, you have been at this

Starting point is 00:42:50 job for five years. I understand it is in like kind of a nonprofit realm where you're not as likely to make as much, but you make less than a first year public school teacher in New York city. Wow. And her eyes got very wide. And I said, now, first of all, I think teachers are underpaid. That's an entirely different conversation. My boyfriend's a teacher, so I'm very intimately aware. But my point was, you know, teachers are underpaid and you're still making less than a first year, somebody who's fresh out of college doing this job. And you've been in your job for five years, that's highway robbery. Yeah. And to have that information, to be able to make those comparisons, that's why I say we need to talk more about what we make because it's not just relevant

Starting point is 00:43:35 for people within your own industry, but knowing something as simple as a first year at entry level employee is out earning me at a position that is notoriously underpaid. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's a scary question. But I used to always, whenever I'd leave a job, that was when I'd feel comfortable asking some of my co-workers, how much did you earn? Because I was way too scared to ask them or I didn't want to cross any lines. And it was always so enlightening to be like, wow. And most of the time, I'd realize I was being underpaid for the amount of work that I was

Starting point is 00:44:06 doing. So it's not necessarily ask people you work with, but it's always good to ask people that maybe are working in similar jobs than you. And that's, yeah, once you really get an idea of what numbers, what salaries are out there, it can change everything. Yeah. And it's just such a good way, again, to just make money a little less taboo for everybody as well. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Erin, for chatting with

Starting point is 00:44:31 me on the podcast. I am so thrilled that you were able to write Broke Millennial for people like me and my listeners to enjoy. Well, thank you so much for having me. This was great. And I will give a little incentive to your listeners. If you order a copy of Broke Millennial and you email me at info, I-N-F-O at brokemillennial.com. And I'll make sure that you have the proper spelling in the show notes because sometimes millennial gets screwed up for people. And if you send me proof of purchase and just put Jessica in the subject line, I feel like that's probably the easiest way to do this.

Starting point is 00:45:06 So I know where you're coming from. Then I will send you a free bonus chapter of the book. It's an unreleased chapter. Ooh, well, thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely. And that was episode 109 of the Mo Money Podcast with Erin Lowry. Make sure to check out her website, brokekeMillennial.com and grab a copy of her new book called Broke Millennial. I'll include some details about how to do so and

Starting point is 00:45:31 more information about what we talked about what the books about in the show notes, which you can check out at JessicaMorehouse.com slash 109. But I highly recommend her book. Really awesome. You know, especially if you are generation Y like myself and like Erin, who wants a book that kind of relates more to what you are going through. This is definitely the book you want to grab a copy of. So you will not want to miss out on this opportunity. So thank you again for listening to this episode of the Momente podcast. And I will check you back here next Wednesday.

Starting point is 00:46:14 This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.

More Money Podcast - 109 How to Manage Your Money as a Millennial - Erin Lowry, Author of Broke Millennial

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