More Money Podcast - 126 Listener Series - How You Could Earn More by Not Going to University

Episode Date: November 2, 2017

If you want to avoid 5-figures in student debt by going to university, ever considered going to a trade school instead? I talk with Sylvia about how she went the nontraditional route for her career and why it was the best decision she could have ever made. Long description: The stats on student debt in Canada and the US are staggering. More and more young people are graduating with degrees in hand and 5-figures in debt to pay off. And sometimes that debt-burden will take them decades to pay off. Here’s the thing…going to university and sticking with the traditional route of getting a degree to start your career isn’t the only way. For this Listener Series episode, I talk with Sylvia Bourgeois about her decision to not go to university but go to a trade school instead. Instead of spending 4 years earning a degree with a boatload of debt to pay off after (not to mention grim job prospects), she was able to graduate her technical school debt-free, find a job soon after and start earning a decent income that would help her buy a home in Vancouver and eventually start her own contracting business. The biggest message in this episode is that there’s no one way to do things. You don’t have to go to university, work in an office and climb your way up the ladder to be successful in your career. Moreover, if you’re a woman, you don’t have to pigeon-hole yourself into certain sectors or industries. I’m ashamed to say that I never even considered a career in the trades because I didn’t think many women worked in that industry. Sylvia certainly proved that wrong, and wants to encourage more women to explore different career paths, even if they aren’t the popular or traditional choice. For full episode show notes, visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/126 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Moeni podcast, episode 126, and another of my listener series episodes. I am so excited to be back with some more listener series episodes, so I know you're going to love this one. This one, I chat with Sylvia Bourgeois, and well, you're just going to love it because she has a great personal finance story that she was willing to share with you. And, of course, if you're listening right now, you're like, huh, you mean people can get on your podcast and share their story with you and to everyone else who's listening? Yeah, that is a thing that you can do. Anyone, anybody who is open to letting lots of people hear your story and taking some time to chat with me. And I promise I'm not scary. It's actually a lot of fun. So if you wanted to do that, look more into

that. I highly recommend you go to the show notes at jessicamorehouse.com slash 126 to find out more details on how to get in touch with me and see if you can get on the show. Now, before I get to that interview with Sylvia, here are some words about this episode's sponsor. Support for this episode comes from Credit Card Genius, the only tool that compares over 50 features of 150 Canadian credit cards using math-based ratings and rankings that respond to your needs instantly. Now, you can get rewarded faster without all the headache. Visit creditcardgenius.ca to learn more. Once again, that's creditcardgenius.ca.

Thank you, Sylvia, for joining me on the show. I'm excited to chat. Nice to talk to you. Yeah, and you're from Vancouver, my hometown, right? Yeah, I'm not from Vancouver. You live in Vancouver. Yeah, I live in North Vancouver now. I'm actually from the northern tip of Vancouver Island. Oh, nice. Outside of a town called Barbigno. I grew up in a camp town called Kokush and then Hyde Creek, which is sort of like a rural area. So yeah. Oh, that's cool. Very nice.

Love BC. I miss it all the time. Though I feel like you've definitely gotten some terrible weather this winter, just like constant rain. So don't miss that. It has its moments. Yeah, no, I mean, North Van is, although it rains, we all say that, but at least a sunny day here is, you know, it's sunny from 5 in the morning until 10 at night kind of thing.

Whereas in my hometown, a sunny day is when the sun comes out for like 20 minutes. Oh, my gosh. No way. Yeah, I don't think I could deal with that. You don't realize what that's like until you leave. No, for sure. You're just used to what you're used to. So thank you for emailing me, you know, and kind of pitching your story to be on my show.

I absolutely loved your story, so I'm excited to get into it. So what I kind of gathered from your email is kind of a message that you really want to get out based on your experiences, especially people maybe in high school thinking about what they want to do with their careers, it does seem kind of like we're all told, you know, the one route to success is university. That is how you, you know, are able to secure a good job, a good salary, which is kind of untrue being a millennial who like went to university and it wasn't as easy as they all said. You took a different route and, you know, kind of proved that theory wrong. So I'd love to kind of chat about how, like, you said that you excelled in high school, but you decided not to go to university. I'd love to kind of pick up there and find out why did you make that choice? I guess a number of things. I mean, I did very well at school. It agrees with me. I finished high school at 17. I had skipped a grade somewhere in there. And yeah, the idea of going for another four years of school didn't appeal to me as a first step. I also had some stuff going on at home. My dad really wanted me to stay and

take over or join him in his business, which would not have, you know, included going to post-secondary at all, or at least not at that time. And part of that argument, um, the financial support for going to school was withdrawn, let's put it. So when I looked at my options, I was kind of like, you know, four years isn't going to happen. It was actually my mom, I think, you know, there wasn't a lot of online stuff then. It was my mom who found this building course at BCIT that I ultimately ended up going to. And I'd always loved doing stuff with my hands. Like, I mean, when I was five years old, I asked for wood for Christmas, right? So I built stuff for my dolls or whatever. And, you know, we'd always, I had just finished kind of with my sister and brother building a house across the street. Like my

dad would come home after work and show me what to do. And then we'd go and work on it until we were done or got stuck or whatever. So I had a lot of experience and I knew that I liked that kind of stuff. It's not so much the building, it's the seeing what you do every day, like having something physical that is either, you know, that is getting done and not just moving paper around. So when I read the course outline at BCIT, I was just like, yeah, I'm going there. Like that's, it was a no brainer for me. And it, and it turned out to be a really good decision all around. It was a great experience. So was it just a year program or how long did it take? It was a two year diploma program at that time. Um, I believe now it's a four year program actually

there. Um, and they're like, they're trying to get a little bit more, almost like a degree going there. But I know there's still certificate options there. And BCIT, it's a technical school. The demographic's quite a bit different. I was the youngest by far in my class. And the average age was probably closer to 35. Like there's a lot of people coming in with a ton of experience, which also makes for an interesting experience. It's more real life, like it's more closer to what you end up finding

in the work world, right? Like there's people that have a ton of experience. And then there's people like me that came straight out of high school and still remember how to do the math. So you help each other. Yeah. So what exactly did you study in that program? So building technology is essentially a project management course is what it comes down to. It had two streams. The first year was the same for everybody. And then you had to pick either going into building economics which was more project management or building architectural or design I can't remember what the name of it was and that was more for people going towards interior design or maybe working for an architect that kind of thing so I took the economics side of it so a lot of courses I mean along with the physics and the math and the civil and

structural type classes there was also and also uh contracts um probably the most uh useful course I ever took was technical communications we all hated it and it's probably the thing I use the most like every day of my life now right so um yeah, yeah, so it was, and I mean, a lot of drawing and design as well. And people came out of it doing all kinds of different things. I mean, I ended up going towards, like, the subcontractor route, so, like, very specialized. My husband, who I met at school, I had a good chance of that. It was, I think think six women and 84 men

if you want to meet a guy go to building tech if you want to meet a girl go take nursing that's amazing so yeah that's kind of the direction that the like if you use all of your skills you're you're moving into project management or project coordination for a general contractor who does some type of building, right? That's what the course was geared towards. Absolutely. So what was your kind of, you know, once you finish school? I'm so curious with that because I really don't know anything about going into the trades. Is it similar to like you finish school, you get your certificate,

how do you find your first job? Oh, that's always a trick, isn't it? I mean, sometimes I feel like that's the only reason you go to school. And if that's the only reason you go to school, then why not make it shorter? Exactly. So I got my first job just by applying to job postings, honestly. And my very first job was not what I wanted to do, but it was on site and it was a site clerking position. So really, it was, they were building what I call the new library, which is no longer so new with the library in downtown Vancouver. And there was all kinds of trades working on that. And I worked for an electrical contractor at the time so I

was in their site office I managed all of their paper is what I did and uh yeah it was it was good but I kind of figured it out after about I don't know probably three or four months and I then was a little bit bored and eventually the job ended when when the work at the site was finished when the building was done and I phoned my husband I I'm like, oh, I got laid off. And he goes, oh, good. Because I've been complaining about that I wasn't kind of challenged anymore, right? Because I'd kind of figured it out. So, I mean, that was really just a paper.

It was an admin job, but it was on a construction site. That's really what it was, right? Yeah, you just kind of need to get your kind of experience out of school to kind of need to get your kind of experience out of school. Yeah. And then after that, I put some feelers out to some people that I knew through, I can't remember exactly how it went, but some people that I knew through going to school at BCIT who had landed jobs at different places. And the one guy was working for an excavation and shoring company and they were looking for some field personnel so he kind of got me in contact with the guy that ended up hiring me and was sort of my mentor for for a good 10 years probably or more so yeah nice when I started working in the excavation and shoring world which probably most people don't know what it is no I, I have no idea what that is. So it's, I mean, in downtown Vancouver, if a high rise goes in,

there's usually whatever, three, six levels of parkade. And to dig the hole for the parkade, you can't slope because you've got roads all around. So you need to dig vertically. So the vertical concrete or shotcrete that's on the walls is is what i do now for a living um or what i manage i manage a company that does that so it involves really anchors like vertical or horizontal anchors tie back anchors into the like underneath the roads on all four sides and then you spray you trim the slopes vertical in panels and you shoot concrete onto

the wall which is called shotcrete and that's what is allows it's basically a temporary excavation which the builders then come in and build the building inside of if that makes any sense that's interesting i've definitely like walked by some like sites like in vancouver and it's just like this big hole and you're like what's that about how are they Vancouver and it's just this big hole. And you're like, what's that about? How are they going to... Yeah, it's just kind of a big mystery to me how these things work. So that's pretty... Thanks for illuminating me.

One thing that I forgot to... Oh, sorry. No, I just remembered. One thing I remember you did email me, though, was making that choice to go to BCIT to do this kind of non-traditional career, especially as a woman. You also were able to do it without getting yourself into debt, which is also sort of an anomaly.

So that, I left, I had $5,200 of babysitting money in my bank account when I left home. Not just babysitting, but I also worked a fair bit for my dad. He was a road builder, so he had heavy equipment. So I used to run dump trucks and excavators and things like that for him as well. And worked on a sawmill for him and those kinds of things. But they were kind of limited to, you know, I was a high school student. So they're limited to after school and weekends and summers, right?

So that was my entire life savings that I left home with. And I did get a scholarship, an answering scholarship into BCIT, which was a fair chunk. I think it was $10,000. Oh, yeah, that'll do it. Yeah, that helped a lot for the first. So the first year I stayed in residence, I only had one summer between the two years of school and i got a summer job doing some drafting for an architect out in the valley which was great except i had to buy a car so that was a big first time thing for me definitely a used car of course with cash nice um and then the second year uh BCIT, I also stayed in residence,

but I applied for a job as a residence advisor. So they have sort of apartment-style houses there where there's 48 people in a house, 12 people per unit, and then there's one residence advisor for those 48 people. And you get an apartment um that you don't have to pay for essentially so you have a bunch of duties to do and you don't get paid anything but you get to live for free so that was the other big help definitely so interesting yeah i was just frugal frugal frugal like i wouldn't take the bus to save the dollar

50 that's just that sounds like me. Well, I know. And I have to say, I've lost some of that now. Yeah, we're paying for it. But we're back on that track. But anyways, yeah, so then and then I think, the second year, I also did quite well, there was a there's some was some kind of financial award, I should know this, but I don't remember, for getting top marks on the first year of BCIT. And I managed to do that too. I worked hard at that. I knew I needed to get that in order to keep going to school because I didn't have the money otherwise. So that was sort of my motivation to put in all my time and to work. Absolutely. It definitely pays to excel at school. I feel like as simple and as obvious as that is, a lot of people, even when I was in university, I never thought then when I was

in university to even try to get some of these financial grants or bursaries or awards or anything like that. I got an entrance scholarship like yourself that paid for my first year, but after that, I didn't even really know when you're in school there were things available. Yeah, you get so busy. Yeah, you get too busy. And I mean, I think if my parents were paying for my school, I probably wouldn't have looked around so much, honestly. I mean, I was, I was, it was desperation. Yeah, that's true.

That is always sort of helpful. Yeah, it does. It's not a That is always sort of helpful. Yeah, it does. It's not a bad way to learn, right? Yeah. Sink or swim kind of thing. So you,

and then we, and then the year after we graduated, my husband and I actually, well, he's my husband now, but he's my boyfriend at the time. We both applied to do the residence advisor position as a couple, even though we weren't going to school there anymore.

So that really helped take the pressure off when we finished school because he didn't find work right away. And yeah. That's awesome. That's amazing. Yeah, it wasn't an ideal kind of place to live, but it was perfect. I mean, again, rent free. Exactly.

Rent free. And when you're just starting out after school, you got to do what you got to do. You know? Yeah. A lot of pressure off kind of making decisions and choices for sure. Absolutely. So, you know, since you do currently live in Vancouver, specifically North Van, which is like more expensive than Vancouver. I know one of the things that you told me was you are a homeowner.

You own a home in North Van and you're really close to paying it off, which is also a miracle. That is unheard of for people in Vancouver. They're just buried in debt. And your house, obviously, being in Vancouver, is worth a pretty penny now. Now, is that because you bought early? When did you buy your house I think so I mean we

actually bought a townhouse in North Van before we even got married which is not what you're supposed to do but anyways we did we were sure yeah exactly um so we did that that was probably fifth well it would have been like 97 so that's almost 20 years ago now. Yeah. So I get, you know, geez louise. Yeah. Time yeah, I mean, housing has probably doubled since then, for sure. But it was still a 400,000 plus mortgage at that time, right? So, but that's one of the things that my husband and I both kind of agree on is whenever there was extra money, that's where it goes, goes towards the mortgage where we don't really buy into the, it's low interest rates and yada, yada. We just want it, we just want it gone. You just want it gone. Especially when you're

only like you said five years out or? Yeah, I think so. I think we're, I think we can do it. Yeah. That's amazing. So I'm curious since, you know, your house has increased in value so much and you're so close to being debt free, will you just continue to live in that house or will you make the decision, yeah, you're not going to sell and maybe move to a place else? No, I mean, we're using it to its fullest right now with two teenage boys, but one's going off to university next year, so there's an empty room, right? The other one will follow, I'm sure, in three or four years

and there's another empty room. We're definitely not upgrading and that's one of the things that we did right is, you know, whatever, you go to the bank and they're like, oh, but you could do this. It's like, yeah, no. So saying no to that additional credit that they would give you as your salary increases or your income increases, that was one of the things I think that we did right for sure. Oh, absolutely. Because of course, every time you go to the bank, they're like, Oh, I mean, this happens to me all the time. Every time I go to the bank, Oh, we here's some a line of credit or this and that. I'm like, I don't want that or need that. But it's because I'm aware of kind of

the repercussions. If you say yes, you know, you may kind of just slide into debt without really realizing it. But lots of people don't. They just think they're being, oh, that person's so helpful. How nice. I got something for free. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, yeah, you can very quickly go backwards too, right? I mean, with the housing prices going up, you can refinance and kind of feel like you're doing okay, but really you're going backwards if you're taking equity out, right?

Exactly. and kind of feel like you're doing okay, but really you're going backwards if you're taking equity out, right? So, and I know I have a lot of peers that have done that and I just look and go, oh, I'm just glad we haven't had to do that. So you've definitely done a lot of things right when it comes to your finances and lots of them are just very easy things that have like a big impact. It seems, you know, you lived, you know, within your means, You were frugal. You were able to get free rent while in school. But what are some of the things I would love to know that maybe some kind of money mistakes that you've made that you have learned from that maybe some people can learn from too? I think they're always helpful when people share. I mean, everyone has money mistakes. Everyone makes these things. Well, here's one. Don't go to a home renovation

so after you've had a bunch of drinks with your husband, you might accidentally buy a hot tub and put $1,000 down. And guess what? We still don't have a hot tub. No! There's my biggest one.

Oh, my gosh. That is absolutely the biggest one. So wait, so you put a down payment on a hot tub? And you still haven't gotten it? No, and we never will. I mean, it's done and gone. I was just like, okay, that's the lesson.

Because I tried to get it back, but what they do is they give most of that as a commission for the salesman, right? So that's how that works. And it wasn't that we didn't think we were going to get it. It was just that, yes, we kind of came. Let me put it another way. It wasn't a a total impulse it was something we had been talking about but a few different things happened and you know money situation changed and we were like yeah no like this is we're not going to spend another eight thousand dollars and do that that's not

where our priority is right now so that's probably the biggest one that where it's like total cash out. I'm sure we've made other ones that have cost us equal amounts of money, but not in such a sort of one single chunk. Yeah. Total embarrassing story kind of way. I feel like that's the, like, even though you didn't even get your hot tub,

the people that I do that know that have hot tubs, they also regret having them because just the maintenance alone is so expensive i mean i love good hot tub but i don't think i'll ever own it i will definitely go to a place to enjoy it and go to i know yeah so i know that was definitely one and then you know honestly just in the last few years we've we've been doing very well we've had some like we both run a uh work as consultants or contractors now we kind of run our own we were by the hour basically for different clients and we've been doing very very well um and honestly we kind of took our eye off the ball right like we used to do sort of I call them annual financial family meetings right with

minutes and everything. Oh, wow. It used to laugh at me, but it was a good thing just to sit down because I do the money in the family, right? And, you know, he kind of, he always jokes, he has no idea what he spends on anything and he doesn't, and it doesn't matter because I look after it all. And that was sort of part of our wedding vows. I would take care of that side of things, but he still needs to know what's going on. Absolutely. And kind of be involved.

And, you know, so, yeah, we've as a, just what I mean by taking our eye off the ball, like we've done things like trips and vacations and some big purchases, like a car and recreational stuff that I'm not sorry that we bought them because we're in definitely in a position to have them all paid off here in the next six months which is my good what I'm currently working on but you know it I think if we had been as attuned to the ins and outs of what's going on just being more mindful about where the money was going if we had been as attuned to the ins and outs of what's going on, just being more mindful about where the money was going.

If we were being as mindful about where the money was going at that time as we are right now, since the beginning of January when I kind of raised the alarm bells, I don't know that we would not have made those decisions. But I think there are other things that we would have taken off the list of things to buy and some of the smaller stuff and just wouldn't quite be where we are right now. Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, the same way as we used to, when we got a raise, we would save that money um and yeah then you get you know and you get to a point where every bit of extra money like once you have your mortgage and your uh utilities and you know everything else kind of and a certain amount

for food coming into the house everything you get on top of that is kind of gravy right like it's kind of play money because there isn't anything else that needs your attention. And yeah, maybe we played a little bit harder the last three or four years. But on the flip side, it's also been a wonderful time for our family, right? Like I said, we have one moving out. So those activities, those memories, that together time, I wouldn't necessarily trade that for anything. And I think, yeah, the important thing is you realize you need to kind of switch gears a bit. And I think that's the important thing.

It's like, oh, I think we've been going a little crazy, a little overboard. We need to fix it. Most people never get to that point that they realize this until it's too late. Yeah. And again, we're blessed with a healthy income. So as long as we direct it into the right places, we haven't dug ourselves a hole that we can't fix. Absolutely.

But yeah, definitely if we kept going without recognizing it, that would be a different story. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks for chatting with me. Before we kind of end things, I always like to ask, especially my listeners, what's kind of one kind of nugget they would love other listeners listening right now to take away from this? Like, what is something that you've learned along the way or that you've done that has really worked for you, that has really kind of changed the game for you financially?

Well, I think actually it goes right back to the beginning of our discussion. I didn't realize it at the time, but number one, going into building kind of world was something that I was obviously passionate about right from a very young age. It's just something that I like. I love it. And the idea of not needing that university degree, we really need to talk about that more as a complete society. You know, we need little girls. I have this great photo of my steel toe boot, one steel toe boot and one red high heel in the back of my car. And there was actually this old, it was a grandfather with his young daughter who walked by and he just looked at me and he said, you know, that's quite

the change or that's quite the transformation or the difference. And I got into quite a conversation with him. And I was actually talking to the little girl because that's who we need to say to them. It's like, you know, there is so much out there. So much work, everything that gets built, everything that gets done, every single thing you consume or take into your house is built or made by somebody. And these are all jobs that our teachers and school counselors don't know about. They just don't. They think they do, but they don't. So for parents, you know, think about what your kids love to do if they're lego people then yeah let's look at some of the building stuff right um you don't need to be super bright to go into trades but you also don't want to cross it off your list if you are good academically right yes um for me i i rose up

the ranks at record speed because when someone gave me a budget I understood them I understood how to do the math for productions right I understood how to figure out how many trucks per hour I needed to get out of the hole in order to get so many cubic meters over to the barge like I could do that math and so very very soon they wanted me in the office. And that's where I did that reluctantly. Eventually, I really wanted to be in the field. And I always, it's not a super politically correct term, but I'm a smart fish in a dumb pool. I wouldn't be the top lawyer or top brain surgeon or top rocket scientist. But very often in construction, I am one of the smarter people out there. And it gives me the opportunity to rise up.

It gives me the opportunity now to run a business, right? So to get into a trade that you think you might be interested in or that you have an affinity to or that you're drawn towards for some reason or another it doesn't mean that you and you keep doing that work necessarily yeah you may end up running the business that does that work right and the best business owners are the ones that have that background right absolutely if you want to run an electrical company it helps if you are an electrician not just an MBA because you always have fights otherwise. So yeah, I just I wish we would talk about it more. And I don't know how to get that word out. It needs to happen way earlier. Right? It can't be happening in grade 10, 11, 12 in career choices or whatever. Like, there needs to be examples at age five, six, seven, eight in elementary school for the kids and for the parents, right? So the parents aren't scared when their kid says, I want to go, I want to be a baker.

Exactly. Absolutely. There are so many jobs. It should be like, excellent. Go do that. Yeah, go do your passion. Exactly. And you will excel. There is not enough of us doing that, right? Yeah, no, I agree. And it's, you know, I totally had the misconception when I was in high school that the only route was university because I didn't, and trades were, you know, I knew was mainly, you know, male oriented that those were kind of like the people that got those jobs. And I just, I didn't know, I didn't have an example of anyone like me who

would do that. And maybe if I did, maybe I would have, you know, it would have nice to know that that was an option. So I'm so glad that you took the time to chat with me. Yeah, especially the open-ended ones too, right? Like, I mean, there's nursing, which always ends up in the same place and lab technician ends up in the same place, but then there's these broader ones, right? Like design and building and whatever, where people from our class went into all kinds of different positions, right? Like it's the job description isn't, isn't single. So yeah. Absolutely. Well, thanks Sylvia.

There's my one thing. I loved it. It was perfect. It was the perfect way to kind of wrap everything up. So I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. No problem. It was very fun. Take care. And that was episode 126 of the Mo Money podcast with my listener series guest, Sylvia Bourgeois from Vancouver. And it was such a blast chatting with her. But if you're listening and you're like, hey, I want to do what Sylvia did and get on your

show and share my story. Well, you can go to the show notes at jessicamorehouse.com slash 126. And there's gonna be some details in there on how to get in touch with me to become a future listener series guest yourself. Now before I wrap this episode up, there's a few important words I want to share about this episode's sponsor. A big thank you to Credit Card Genius for supporting the Mo Money podcast. If you're not aware, they are the only tool that compares over 50 features of 150 Canadian credit cards by using math-based ratings and rankings that respond to your needs instantly. Now you can get rewarded faster without all the headache. If you want to find the best credit card for you, make sure to check out creditcardgenius.ca to learn more.

Once again, visit creditcardgenius.ca to learn more. All right. So thanks again for listening. As a friendly reminder, I, throughout this whole season, am doing a contest where it's super easy. You can potentially win a 25 amazon gift card if you leave me an itunes review if you check out the show notes jessicamorehouse.com slash 126 there will be a full contest details on how to enter but i am giving away uh one gift card in november this month and another one in de. So if you enter in November and you

don't win, you're still eligible to win in December. So two times to win. So make sure to check out the show notes, jessicamorehouse.com slash 126 for full contest details. Okay, that is it for me for this lovely Thursday day. But I will see you back here next Wednesday for a fresh new episode that you are going to love, I promise. Peace. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.