More Money Podcast - 151 Worry-Free Money - Shannon Lee Simmons, Author, CFP & Founder of The New School of Finance

Episode Date: March 21, 2018

At the end of the day, money shouldn't be something you worry about, or feel guilty about, or don't even want to think about. We all deal with money. We all earn it. We all spend it. But it shouldn't be something we're ashamed of or hate talking about. Which is why I loved reading Shannon Lee Simmons' new book Worry-Free Money, which takes a unique and refreshingly positive approach to how to manage your money and feel good about it. Long description: I know I say this for almost every episode, but this seriously is one of my favourite interviews. And it could be because when I met Shannon Lee Simmons, author of Worry-Free Money and founder of The New School of Finance, for the first time, I immediately clicked with her. There aren’t too many financial planners out there who make money fun and cool, but she does and I’m so glad she was able to share her wisdom and personality on the podcast! We talk about a lot of different topics in this episode, but there are two main points that we touch on. First, that budgeting doesn’t have to be boring or restricting, especially if you try out her method of not categorizing all of your variable expenses. I know for me, that’s what I used to do, and I would always end up kicking myself for overspending on groceries one month or spending too much on eating out the next. Instead, just set aside an amount of money you can spend, and spend it until it reaches zero (and not more than that). If you do that, you’ll free yourself from the guilty of not matching your budget perfectly, but you’ll still won’t be spending more than you want. It’s simple really. So simple that I have no idea why we all over-complicate budgeting! Another big topic we tackle is the idea of comparing our financial situation to those of our peers. This is something that is absolutely normal and not something to be ashamed up. We want to keep up with our peers (who doesn’t?) and we want to do whatever it takes so we don’t fall behind. That being said, we don’t have all the information. We don’t know how much our peers earn, how much they spend, or what their net worth is. So really, we shouldn’t try to keep up with the Jones’ because we actually have no idea what’s going on with the Jones’ financials. Maybe they got a big inheritance which is why they could afford to buy a house. Maybe they are actually really frugal in their day-to-day lives which lets them afford those fancy vacations. Maybe they just have different values than us and are just really good at showing that good life on Instagram. The important thing to remember is we should put the focus back on ourselves. Are we happy with where we’re at? Are we spending on things that match our values? Are we meeting our financial goals? I probably could have talked to Shannon for another hour, but I called it at the 45-minute mark. That being said, I highly recommend her book Worry-Free Money (I seriously loved it!) and I also suggest you check out her online courses linked in the show notes. For full episode show notes, visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/151 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Mo Money Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse, and you're listening to episode 151 of the Mo Money Podcast. I can't believe I am over the 150 hump. I don't know if that's really hump, but anyways, I've got plenty more episodes to go until the end of this season, so don't you worry. I'm not wrapping this up anytime soon. I've got several more months up anytime soon. Got several more months. But that also means several more months of amazing interviews with amazing guests. And this episode is no different. This one is a gem of an episode because I get to interview someone I finally got to meet in person just a few months back at the Canadian Personal Finance Conference in, I

think it was in November. And that was before she got to release her book. She's a new author. I am, of course, talking about Shannon Lee Simmons. She is the author of Worry Free Money. And honestly, I read a lot of personal finance books, a ton. It's actually kind of one of my personal goals this year to read as many personal finance books as I can this year, just because, I don't know, I got a little lazy in the past couple of years probably just because I did a lot of it at the beginning of my kind of blogging journey or even before that. I think I got a little sick of reading finance books because a lot of them were just saying the same old stuff. But now I'm back at it because there's a lot of great books coming out, a lot of different perspectives, a lot of different tones. I felt like, honestly, a lot of kind of older personal finance books sometimes have the

tone of, I don't know, being a little bit judgmental about how you spend money or, you know, shaming you for having debt and all this kind of stuff. And yes, that is one technique you can use, absolutely. But I feel like a lot of things have changed in the past while. And I think a lot of us are changed in the past while. And I think a lot of us are looking for kind of a little bit more positivity, you know, just kind of a nicer, friendlier tone, I suppose, which is why I really, really do love Shannon's book, Worry-Free Money. And that is really kind of what the crux of her book is about is not shaming you for your money

mistakes, but just encouraging you to own it and then do something about it and move on and live your life. We all make money mistakes. No one is perfect. Absolutely not. Myself, absolutely included in that boat, have made a ton of dumb mistakes, dumb, dumb, dumb money mistakes. But that shouldn't stop you from achieving your goals, from, you know, righting those wrongs and being awesome at money because money is so fixable. Money mistakes are so fixable and you don't have to worry about it. You shouldn't feel guilty about it. You shouldn't feel stressed about it. So anyway, so that is kind of like the kind of, you know, part of, you know, the reason why I'm such a huge fan of her book.

And I keep on telling people about it and keep referring back to it because it's just a very unique book. And it's all about stories too. And that's what I really love. She does go into a couple of rules of thumb and common principles to practice. But she really just talks about clients that she works with because she is a CFP and has her own practice called the New School of Money. But she shares different stories and different people's lives. So you can really get an idea of what are other people doing with their money? What are their different money problems and how do they solve it? And what are some ways that maybe I can take some of that advice and then implement it into my own life. Anyway,

so enough gushing. I'm going to get to that interview with Shannon right now. But before I do, just a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Planswell. Tired of paying high fees just to get a financial plan for yourself? Well, now you don't have to. Enter Planswell, the first digital company to help you build a comprehensive financial plan for free in three minutes. And because they're independent, meaning they're not backed by any financial institution, they can find you the best deal when it comes to insurance, borrowing, and investing without being biased towards any one company. And if you don't like one of the offers they get from one place, no problem. They'll go somewhere else to find you a better deal.

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slash Planswell Review. Welcome, Shannon, to the Mo Money Podcast. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited to have you. I just whipped through your book, which I have right here. Woo! Worry-Free Money and absolutely loved it, especially the subtitle, The Guilt-Free Approach to Managing Your Money and Your Life, which I love because I feel like the idea or the sentiment of guilt is very tied to money. And I used to think it was just me. I'm like, oh, maybe that's just like my background. I mean, I'm Catholic. We're guilty about everything. But I think it's just a lot of the conversations I've been having is people, they feel guilty for

spending. They feel guilty for not saving enough. They feel guilty for not investing the right way. They feel guilty for paying fees. They feel guilty for everything. And so, and it's like, well, that's not productive. That's not really a helpful solution. Just feeling guilty. You just feel like awful. And that's when people decide I'm just like going to push it to the side, not do anything about my money. So it was, it was nice. I felt after reading this book, I actually felt good. And sometimes after reading personal bonus book, you just feel like crap because you're like, oh, I am not doing as well as this person or I've got a lot of work to do. So I really appreciated that. So why did you really want to focus in on the, you know, getting rid of people worrying about money and feeling guilty about money?

Yeah, I think you actually kind of just nailed it. So what I've seen at New School of Finance over the years, looking at people from like all different walks of life. And I think that's a key thing is that my clients range from like millennials who are just starting out all the way up to people who are like getting ready for retirement and all sorts of different incomes. And the one thing that was like kind of consistent was this gnawing guilt and anxiety about money, even if they were doing well. And so that was interesting. And so what I've noticed over the years is like, when we feel guilty or frustrated or anxious about our financial decisions, we feel like bad with money. And then we just give up. And so that's what you say, but we just push it to the side. And so I noticed that as a trend over the years of like,

dealing with people that like, I don't want people to give up and that like a little bit goes a long way. And so if we can just take out that guilt, take away the frustration and make your finances something that doesn't feel like such a drag, people are 10 times more likely to actually follow a plan that's realistic and move that dial forward. So that's what I wanted. I wanted someone to shut the book and feel exactly like you did. Like I'm excited. I feel like this is doable. And I'm like ready to do something about it rather than closing the book and being like, oh my God, I suck. What's the point of trying? Yeah, exactly. And that's actually what I did. After I closed the book, I looked over to my husband, like number one, you have to read this.

And number two, I think we need to take a good look at kind of what we're doing with our money. Like one of the things that I'm definitely, I think I used to implement and then I kind of switched gears and we'll talk a little about this maybe, maybe next, but was I really liked when you talked about how just how people perceive what making a budget means and how maybe it should look like. Kind of not budgeting, but still budgeting. And so I feel like, yeah, when I first started out, I kind of did, well, I mean, I didn't have a lot of money, so I didn't really have a lot of things to categorize, quite honestly, in my budget. And so it was kind of like, okay, save first and then my fixed expenses and then whatever left I can spend. And that's a very simple concept and it's great. And then throughout the years, as my money got more complex, then I started kind of, you know, just, okay, let's categorize this. And then you'd always feel again, guilty because you're like, ah, I'm spending too much on EDN. I'm spending too much on this. And so right after reading that portion, I'm like, Josh,

I think we need to take a good look at our budget because we keep on every single money meeting, talk about we're not doing so well in this category and stuff like maybe we should get rid of these category labels and just like have a pool of money that we can spend and that's it so is that i would love to kind of talk about yeah why did you really want to emphasize the budgeting because i think budgeting everyone's like oh yeah so i think yeah no and that's people turn to budgeting as like the antidote to feeling like crap about their money, right? Yeah, they're like, that's the, yeah, that'll help me, right? That's the solution, yeah.

And so again, what I've seen is people just giving up. So, you know, we make, or like, we're like, I'm going to get my financial life in order, make a ridiculous spreadsheet, and then hate their life doing it, and then fail because it's unrealistic. It's like, I say this in the book, one, if you, let's say your grocery budget is $200 this week, one week you spend $200 and the next week you have people over and you overspend. Well, then it's like slap on the wrist. We're not doing well in that category.

When at the end of the day, if we take a step back, like what actually matters? Okay, well, can we pay our bills? Are we saving? Then who cares? Yeah. Like who cares if you spent it on groceries or pants that that week, because the important work is being done. And so that's why that hard limit number is really important is that like, it's not like not budgeting in the sense of like, you just spend whatever you want. But it's not budgeting, you're spending money. That's the

key because you're spending money is yours. And as long as you're fed and having fun getting around, who cares how it actually does it. And so like, that's that idea of the hard limit is like separating that line in the sand between the money that you cannot spend to make sure that you're financially, your butt is covered essentially. And then the other money is like donuts.

Yeah. Nobody should, nobody should shame you for how you spend that money. Exactly. No. And I'm like, yeah, I think that's something that we need to do just because it's that portion of our budget was like, we were just never, we were never like right on the dollar. And because yeah, life is flexible. Life changes month to month. Like you said, sometimes you have people over and they're like, Oh, well, our everything's out the window. Why even try? Yeah. Yeah. And I just think it's like,

I think it sets I think those kinds of traditional budgets set us up to fail. And the more that we fail with our money, the more frustrated we get. And the more we feel like there isn't a point in trying, because I'm bad with money, or I'm just like, I'm not really good at money. And then if you hear in the media, and you hear other people talking about how they're so good with money, and maybe you don't actually know all the behind the scenes information there, which I am privy to, it kind of just like compounds that feeling of frustration and guilt. And so it's like, every time you spend money, it just feels like a it feels like a bad call when really, maybe that $40 takeout was absolutely fine. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. As long as you're just not spending, you know, you've got that hard limit,

like you said, do whatever you want. As long as you're just not spending over that, then it's fine. But yeah, it's fine. Yeah. It's actually kind of timely too. So the other day someone posted in my Facebook group that, you know, they've been really happy that they've been able to save up a, you know, good chunk of money in their emergency fund over the past couple of years. And then finally, an emergency happened. And they're like, well, I have to dip into it, but I don't want to. And I feel guilty about it, like I'm a failure. They use that word failure.

What do you tell people when they come to you? They're like, I did all the right things, but I still kind of feel like a failure. Yeah. And I think it's just like in that moment, reminding yourself, especially when it comes to those short-term savings or those emergency savings, like that's what it's there for. I know. You are literally saving up to spend that money at a future date. So like there is no room for guilt because you did everything you were supposed to and it's working.

I said, it's a reminder, like, oh, you have an emergency account and now there's an emergency and you don't have to go into, and it's working. It's a reminder like, oh, you have an emergency account, and now there's an emergency, and you don't have to go into debt. It's working. The plan is working. And so it's kind of like that reminder piece, but often the flip side of why people are so scared to spend their, even their short-term savings, it's like this overdone scarcity mindset, like not to get all woo, but it's like, it's like, you're so scared

to spend any money because you're really not sure if you're going to be okay in the long run. So anytime you spend money, it feels terrifying and you feel like a failure, even though that's exactly what that money was supposed to do in the first place. So it'd be the same as like, if you saved up for a vacation, then spent your vacation money and then feeling like guilty about that. The same thing as an emergency account. Yeah. So I guess what, what would be the solution to kind of get rid of that is just, I guess, have more of a firm financial plan in terms of what are your savings goals and just progress. Yeah. And I think, so I call it like meaningful savings in those like four

money categories. So I think that's when we, when we design that hard limit, the money that you can't spend really making sure that the money that you cannot spend every month, um, is going towards things that are financially productive, if you will. So like, yeah, we have to cover our butt payer bills. Um, and the second thing is like, let's make sure that you're putting away enough money to move yourself forward financially. So like, is that repaying debt? Is it saving up for a house one day in a market where millions of dollars? Is it, yeah, I know. Is it saving for retirement?

So like, I often ask clients, you know, what needs to happen financially for you to feel like at night you're saving enough? Yeah. So that you can actually have, give yourself permission to spend money. And then I kind of check that to make sure that like, okay, well, if we do this, then if we kind of blow it out over the next little bit, like, are we actually, is it enough to actually move the dial forward? And so most times it is, but because we have no concept of safety, it feels like a moving target and it feels like we don't know and therefore everything feels scary all the time. Yeah.

Well, I guess that's probably a popular question you get is, well, how much do I need to spend or how much should I spend or am I saving enough? I think there's so many different kind of rules of thumb or percentages out there. A lot of people say, you know, oh, you should be saving 50%. It's like, what does that actually mean? Saving, like, are you just putting 50% into your retirement account or what? What do you have to say to those kind of questions? So I would separate it between two types of savings. So we're not talking about short-term savings here, which is like saving up for a vacation, saving up for emergencies. So it's like saving up to spend. Yeah. Glorified spending money um i'm

talking about meaningful savings so there's a couple of ways to look at this and i usually break it into time horizons or like boxes so like there's the long-term box which is like retirement or like paying down a mortgage you know see in 30 years money and then there's like medium-term goals that might be paying down debt debt or saving for a down payment or things that are going to increase your net worth in the short term that aren't necessarily those retirement pieces. So how much do we want to save? This is like the never ending question. So there is no black and white answer. And that is why it's a frustrating moving target. There isn't a right or wrong. What I typically say to people, and you know, some people might be listening to this and be like, Oh, I can't believe she just

said that. But like, um, what I typically say to people is like, okay, for longterm stuff, if you don't even get started on that, because that's the reality for so many people until 35 ish. Yeah. That still gives you 30 years. It's a long time to still save for retirement. So a good check-in for the retirement stuff, mortgage or long-term is like, are you doing 10% of your, of your income? Right. And so your gross income, that doesn't mean that if you can't do that, you should give up. And that's why I hate saying these because you know, someone's going to automatically take their calculator on their phone right now and be like, oh my God, I can't say five grand or what the heck.

Right. Like I'm not going to be able to do it. But that's kind of like one of those rules of thumb. It's like, okay, are you doing something? Yeah. And then the other piece is like, if you're in your twenties and thirties, really focus on paying down debt and maybe achieving some of those medium-term targets if there's something that you want so so like using time

on your side while you're young and like getting that other stuff out of the way is a priority over that long-term box because you have no idea what's going to happen between the ages of like 35 to 65, 40, like those are your peak earning years potentially. And also, um, if the better you're managing money and the more you're actually like moving yourself forward in your twenties and early thirties, the better off you'll be down the road because you'll be able to save more for retirement. So it's a balancing act, but like, I know that every single financial expert says this, get a customized answer for yourself because if you're about to inherit $3 million, then who cares? So everybody's situation is completely different. And so you need an answer for you. Definitely. A hundred percent. I like that answer. You talked a lot about,

like how you call it the Beyonce factor. That is amazing. And I think this is something that's so true that we, especially with, and it's emphasized really with social media, tend to compare ourselves with others. We used to always do it, but with like Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and all this stuff, we do it even more. And it's just gotten to kind of a dangerous level, I would say. It's unhealthy a little bit. But we do that a lot with our money. And I used to do this. And my kind of story that I always tell people is, you know, when I was working on Bay Street, and I knew how much I made, but I still live pretty frugal because I'm like, I mean, you'd

walk around and you just see money everywhere. People wearing expensive clothes, really nice designer purses. And I'd be like, some of these people I know are like assistants or coordinators. Like they don't make that much money. I know how much they make. How are they affording all this stuff? And so I'd compare myself to them. But usually I would just be like, okay, I bet they're in debt or they got that on sale or maybe that's, you know, borrow. I don't know, whatever. I would kind of try to be like, I bet it's not because they do make a ton of money or they're richer than me or whatever.

So that's what I would try to tell myself to make myself feel better. But I mean, this is something that I think a lot of people do. What are some things that people need to kind of remind themselves of so they don't get stuck in this, like, why is their life looks so much better than mine when I know we make the same amount, I think. Yeah. And I think so there's a

couple of things that like, even your story is like really pointing to, um, and why it is a dangerous level. So as, as you mentioned, and as I mentioned in the book, like a lot of times people are like, well, that's just keeping up with the Joneses and you should be better than that. Well, try. Yeah, you try. It is 100% normal and super normally human behavior to try to keep up with your people. And it doesn't mean keep up as in like be better than, it just means not fall behind. And so I think that's really what it is. So if all of your, and I use the destination wedding as a great example. If all of your friends are going to a destination wedding and they can all afford it and no one seems to be stressed out financially about it. And you are, that's an immediate feedback to you. That's like, you're not keeping up with your

friends, right? Like your friends are doing better than you. And that is scary because if we can't like think about that episode of friends, like some people can keep going out and some people can't. And then you're like, Oh my God, we're different. And now we're not friends anymore. What's happening. So there's a lot of emotional stuff at stake if you're not keeping up with your people um and so that's really what it's about it's not about being better than it's about being equal to yeah and so but what social media does is it makes it raises the financial stakes so what you need to do to stay equal seems higher than what's actually realistically going on. And so, and it makes us feel inadequate.

I call it the inadequacy influence, which is like where you feel like pissed off with your financial lot. Right. So regardless of how good it is, you feel like you don't make enough money to ever have the, like, how are they doing it? If you find yourself wondering that, that is a precursor, huge red flag that you are about to start feeling crappy about your own financial situation. If you didn't have that thought, then you wouldn't care how they did it because you could, you'd be like, oh, I can do it myself. I don't care if that's how they're doing it because I get it. So if you are finding yourself having that, that means you are doing that comparison game.

And then you're, it's like flag, flag, flag. I'm about to feel like crap. So what I often remind people of, I did this with the Real Selfies Project. And then I also kind of transformed that into this thing I call the Beyonce Factor. So with my job, I have this unbelievable opportunity to voyeur into the lives, financial lives of my peers and those who are

older than me too. So I can see what mistakes were made in their life and where they're at, right? It's so unfair to everybody else. And so I, I feel those pangs of inadequacy all the time. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't. But one thing I noticed over the years that made me able to snap out of it way fast and then not have it as affect me as much is that, you know, I'm scrolling through and it's like one of my peers has bought a house in a beautiful neighborhood that is like, I will never have that. I can't afford a million dollar house.

So it's like, and, and I'm like, Oh, do you mean like, I feel like a sinking failure instantly because I'm working my butt off and it's probably something that like I may never get. And yet they're, they're seemingly pulling it off. The flip side to that is that I actually saw those clients five weeks ago, told them they couldn't afford that. They did it anyways. And I know that they got a $200,000 handout from their parents. So two things are happening here. I feel that pang of inadequacy. And then I all of a sudden go,

but wait, my parents can't give me a $200,000 gift. I don't have that. And I wasn't willing to take on the risk and the fear of carrying a mortgage that big. So like, really, I shouldn't compare myself to this person. Exactly. So the, what I'm talking about there is that the average person doesn't have that knowledge. So they just feel that pang of inadequacy and they have no facts to back it up about why they shouldn't. So that's why I say the Beyonce factor. Cause I'm basically like, you know, if you're scrolling through and you see that Beyonce bought a yacht, that's the example I use in the book. You wouldn't feel inadequate. You wouldn't feel like, oh, my job sucks. I can't buy a yacht, right?

Like you wouldn't be like that. And the reason is, you know, I asked a client that one time and he's like, yeah, well, she's in a totally different financial sphere than me. But if you think about it, someone who got a huge handout from their parents is also in a completely different financial sphere than you. So they might be like you, you might have the same job as you, but behind the scenes, they are nothing like you, you might have the same job as you, but behind the scenes, they are nothing like you financially. So unless you know the nitty gritty details of someone's financial life, you just must assume that they're in a different financial sphere than you and

therefore absolve yourself of the comparison game. And that is the only way to stop that in the moment and not reflect your own situation. 100%. 100%. And it's nice that you mentioned the house thing because I had that recently where I connected with an old friend and we're talking about another old friend. I was like, oh yeah, so-and-so, she was able to buy a home in Vancouver, which is also very expensive, like Toronto. I know. And she's in her, I guess, 20s still or 30s, early 30s possibly. And I was just like, what? I can't afford that. How can she that and I just and then again I'm just like okay there's definitely some information I don't know because I don't know anyone my age who can afford a million dollar house and that's just that there's information that you don't know exactly

and so therefore they might as well be Beyonce they may as well exactly you can't because and we're very good human beings but like filling in the blanks and creating a story wouldn't be happy so you just gotta like stop yourself from that because what social media is doing to us is raising the stakes of everyday life to make it more expensive and then also punishing us and making us not appreciate the good stuff that we do have going on because there's the target of what it takes to succeed is moving further and further away all the time. So you're chasing this thing that's never, you're never going to catch it. And so it feels frustrating and you can feel inadequate. So you might have a well-paying job that's a livable wage and have a nice apartment

that you rent and you might actually be super happy, but constantly looking at these other places might elicit that like, man, I'm never going to get there. What's wrong with my life? What bad choices did I make? Yeah, exactly. Which is why I think I've come to the realization. I'm like, we may never own a home, like a proper home with a yard. And I'm okay with that because it's just, I mean, unless we move someplace cheaper, but it's just not going to happen. And that's fine. Cause yeah, I think it was really important. Like you said, is look at what your life and be like, are you, are you happy? Then it's fine. It's fine. Yeah. Is it enough? Is it enough? Is it enough? And so if you block out all that noise, if you didn't actually know what all those people were doing, you probably wouldn't have felt

inadequate in the first place. It's the unfair knowledge of how other people are succeeding. That's making it feel so much worse. One of the reasons I want to write this book is I've been doing this now for like 10 years and only in the last five have I really felt like the word broke with people who are absolutely not broke, um, being used in their intake forms. Like, what do you want to get out of our session? I don't want to feel broke anymore. Like, dude, you're not like, what? And it's not that I'm like shaming them into being like, you can appreciate what you have, but it's like, it's like the feeling is real and the fear is real. And it feels like we're all struggling. And so we all just need to like break free. And that's why I wanted to write that. Cause it's like, all of these things are making us feel broke. Yeah. No, I loved that part of

the book. Cause I'm like, there's definitely been times I would almost say like this time last year, I felt a little broke just because I left my stable corporate job. Still, I was earning money, but it was less and I was living a bit more frugally. But I had this, I'm like, oh my gosh, it brought me back to those days when I moved out of my parents and was making like hardly any money in my first job, living in a tiny basement suite with two other girls and definitely was broke. And it made me feel like that again. I'm like, but I know I'm not like I have like savings. I've got investments. We own a home that has equity in it. I'm not broke. Why do I feel broke? Yeah, that's exactly it. And I think that the thesis of the book is like the more you feel

broke, the more likely you're going to eventually give up because that moving target of success feels so far away that there's no point in chasing it anymore. Right. And so that is, and that's that fear piece. So that's why that's, that's exactly it. It's that broken. And I feel like that too. Sometimes like I'm not above it. We're all feeling it.

Oh, 100%. Coming to the surface on that. And that's, that's really cool from some of the feedback from people that have read it. They've been like, are you in my brain? I love that. Yes. Yes, I am. Yeah. No, totally. And I felt like too, because it seemed like another kind of theme or message that you really want to get across in the book was empowering yourself by taking control of your money, which is something that I like to live by too, because that's why I got into personal finance. I felt when I took control of your money, I felt more confident. I felt more safe and secure. I felt better about the outlook of

my life, which I really appreciated. So what would you say are some just simple steps that people can start implementing in their life to stop feeling this broke feeling that even if they're not broke? Yeah. Well, obviously pick up a copy of the book. Of course. Obviously. So I think that the first thing that I would do for anybody is like, um, very simple is just figuring out what that line in the sand is between the money that you can and can't spend. So that's twofold things are happening there. The first thing is to actually sit down and take stock of what, what you owe, like you're asking like how much money you have and how much money you don't

have. You've got debt or something like that. And then setting some concrete goals around that. So that's where that like meaningful savings piece, right? What's the amount of money that you can realistically put aside every month to move the dial forward and this is a big theme in the book for me is like I am all about being realistic and I think that that counts so you know it's a risky thing to say a couple of the things that I say in the book because

most of the time experts will be like, save this amount. And like, you're bad with money if you can't get there. And, you know, after sitting in the trenches with people every day and like, you know, holding a mom's hand, who's crying because she can't put her kid in hockey. Yeah. That is real. And so I feel like realistic plans are way more likely to get done. So when I'm saying like, how much do you want to put aside to move the dial forward? What I'm saying is how much can you do realistically?

Because then you'll do it. And I'd rather you save a hundred bucks a month and me tell you, you need to save a thousand and you're just like, Oh, that's not bad. Yeah. Super not doing that. So that's the first piece is that goal setting and like kind of assessing what you can do. And then the second piece of that is like, okay, so now that we know what you cost to live, like what are your bills? What's the amount of money you want to do to move yourself

forward in that meaningful savings place? And then how much money do you need to set aside so you don't end up in debt again? Once you answer those three questions, which is all part of just taking stock of your life, the rest is the money that you can spend to zero. And so that is the first step that you should do. And it sounds like that's a huge task, right? And it kind of is, but all the other, can I swear? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, you can. Yeah. Whether you're doing like, uh, it's not actually uh it's not actually it's not actually that at all but when you have no money to save it it's a meaningless right so it's like it doesn't matter where your etfs are if you don't have money to save into etfs like that's not a thing yeah and so all of the other strategies that you might be stoked to implement are meaningless unless we

actually have that in place. So that first piece that you want to do is like, you know, sit down, pour a glass of juice, coffee, wine, whatever it is. And like, okay, what do I have? What do I owe? What's coming in? What's coming out? Take stock of your finances and then set that goal around the fact that like, I want to move myself forward. And what can I realistically do? Absolutely. It's a simple, but it is like the foundation.

And it's funny, like I get kind of a huge thing. Yeah, it's a simple but huge thing. Very important thing to make you feel kind of like you've got your stuff together. But yeah, I kind of get a view in my Facebook group. We get just a bunch of questions. People ask whatever they want and just to see what other people's answers are. And a lot, you know, sometimes I see people that are like, Hey, I just graduated and, you know, just starting my life. And I'm thinking about investing in stocks. It's like, Whoa, Whoa,

Whoa, Whoa. And I think a lot of that has to do with there's so much information online. And when you go to lots of like the financial sections of like, you know, newspapers and whatnot, they do focus a lot of that because that's sexy stuff. That is exciting. It makes you make stuff. Budgeting is not sexy. So what do you – Bitcoin is sexier than budgeting. That question comes up all the time.

They're like, but what do you think about cryptocurrency? I'm like, I think it's garbage, but whatever. Like if you have money to gamble, go ahead. But I guess I also want to kind of go to this life checklist, which really hit home for me because I'm like, oh my gosh, that is like me. Every millennial probably ever has this life checklist that we got from our parents. You know, you need to, you know, go to university. You need to get a good job. You need to buy your own home. You need to get married. You need to have kids, you know, you need to, uh, you know, go to university, you need to get a good job. You need to buy your own home. You need to get married. You need to have kids, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, I don't know where this life checklist came or maybe it's been

around forever, but it's been so ingrained in our minds that when we can't accomplish something, or even if we don't want to accomplish something anymore, just cause like, we're like, Hey, you know what? I actually don't care about buying a place. I'd rather rent and save the money and travel more or whatever. We feel that sense of failure and guilt again. Why is that? That's because it comes back to that comparing. So the life checklist is a series of like goals and lifestyle that has been ingrained and then also like confirmed by your people yeah friends family colleagues whatever it is and so it's a status measure it's how we know if we're falling behind or not right so when you opt out yeah of that life checklist you're signaling to your peers that you are doing

things differently which is scary on a social level, right? Because the group, the herd mentality is like, you know, in the example in the book, in the book, I use that too. So like, I have a very similar one too. I'm sure people have different ones, but for me and for a lot of people, it's like, it is the, you know, go to school, get a job, buy the house, have the babies, you know, retire by 60 retire by 60 yep that's it and like eat organic the whole time yeah like so that's so when you do things differently it's usually an indicator of affordability because if you had the money you'd do it yeah if I had the money Jessica I would buy a house yeah so by me not doing that even if I'm okay with it on an emotional level and I have like

I've looked at the numbers 10,000 times and it still makes more sense for me to run I in at the end of the day if I had the money I would do it right so what you're signaling when you don't when you don't opt into the life checklist and you opt out you are you are signaling to everyone I don't have enough money. And that feels scary and crappy sometimes and makes us feel blue because the herd is here and you're earlier. And so what's, what's cool about the life checklist is like, once you recognize your own life checklist, right, which is something that is in the book, um, then you, it's almost, and I think I use the example of like, um, public speaking where it's like, if you know that these are your certain trigger things, like these are the things

in your life that if you, because you've opted out, when you see the herd doing them, it's going to hurt. Yeah. It's going to hurt more than something that's on your, that's already happened. Right. Or that you don't care about. Yeah. So like I could, I couldn't care less about fancy cars.

Yeah. I like, there are literally, I couldn't care less about fancy cars. Yeah. I like there are literally, I couldn't care. So if one of my peers buy the fancy car, it has no, if I, I saw my life checklist. Yeah. I don't care. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Somebody else who's like, I've always wanted to have this car mobile. And then they see their peers doing it. It's like drives them bananas. Right. And so, so if you can identify the triggers on your life checklist, that are the things that you want, or you thought you wanted that you probably can't afford. These are the things that are going to make you feel like a punch to the gut when the herd is doing it and you're not because you can't afford it. So if you can identify that, see it coming your way, you're way more in control of your emotions and how you

feel about that. So it doesn't mean that it makes it go away, but you can stop the spiral of inadequacy questioning whether you made bad decisions questioning your job wishing things were different all the time um because you're way more in control it's like yeah public speaking if someone just put a microphone in your face at a wedding like give a talk you'd be like oh my god i'm freaking out yeah but if they told you well in advance i'm going to ask you to say something you're like i'm still nervous but i got this because i'm expecting it. Same thing with money. If we can expect like every time one of my friends buys a house, I'm going to feel that way. I know that. I still feel like that way. And I am a homeowner,

but because I don't own a proper home, I'm like, well, damn it. You know, I don't have, I'm not at that level, you know, not there. So every time that happens, I know in advance, I'm going to feel like that. So I know in advance, I'm going to feel like that. So I take them in and I'm like, this thing is happening to me. And then I'm like, and get over it. This is the Beyonce factor. And moving on and moving on. Exactly. Yeah. No, one thing that I think I do, and I think hopefully a lot of other people do after reading your book and doing lots of the things that you talk about is whenever I do, you know, even unconsciously

compare myself to someone else's life or life checklist or everything like that, I take a look, step back, take a look at my own financial situation, look at my net worth and look at my own kind of vision board because I'm a nerd and I totally have one of those. Oh, I like take a look there. I'm like, okay, well, I'm, I'm where I want to be right now. So it doesn't matter where they are and just, and then just move on. And also I think, you know, just still on the topic of social media, there's so many people I know that are starting to now, um, get rid of certain social accounts or just take a detox and just like, no, for a while. I think that's actually really healthy or just doing like little things. Like I stopped putting my phone

next to my bed as my alarm clock. We bought an old school alarm clock. So I leave my phone downstairs. It actually has helped a lot because then I don't feel anxious in the morning anymore. Yeah. I did the exact same thing. That's funny because when I started realizing this, um, so, and I give a social media detox in the book for that.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so there's a couple of things. So I actually did the same thing. I have an alarm clock, no phone near my bed because it's the, when you're tired or in the morning, you're in your weakest, most vulnerable point of the day. And if you've had a rough day and you feel like you're overworked already and underpaid, and then especially like you scroll through and like, you know, your people are on a vacation that you know that you'd love to go on, but can't,

it just compounds that right before bed. It like there's nothing productive from that no um and so what I also started doing too was like if I it's okay to go on social media yeah and so I and I also like to partake so what I do is I set a timer for 10 to 15 minutes and then you would be shocked at how fast that goes. You're like, oh my God, no. Oh, when you fall down the rabbit hole. Oh my gosh. And you're like, so that 10 minute or 15 minute reminder, when it's so effective for me, because now it's like, I have to mindfully choose,

like, do I actually want to sync another, do I want to be on social media for half an hour if I do this again? No, I don't want to be on social media for half an hour. And then I put my phone away. I love that. And so I do that. And that has been so great to use the alarm clock trick.

I love that you did that too. It's so funny. It's like, it actually was hard to do though. It was like, it was like my hand felt the itch. I'm like, where's my phone? It was scary. I feel the, I felt like, oh my God, the first little bit too.

And now I actually see the benefit of it. And I was frustrated the first few times that that alarm went off on me. I was like, I haven't even done anything. Like I didn't even get anything done. I'm like, what am I doing? Like commenting? I'm not doing anything. I'm like looking at my like ex-roommate's boyfriend's profile. I don't know. Like, what am I doing here? Come on. Yeah. So I guess also like logging out, this is something that I did. I should probably do again, logging out of those accounts if you're like on a computer. So you have to put in your password and sometimes that's just annoying. So you just won't do it.

No, absolutely. I like also removing from a buying point of view. Oh yes. Removing your credit card information. I think I give that tip too, because so many of my clients with like taxi apps and food apps and anything that they're shopping, like if their stuff is saved in like Amazon or something like that, it is so easy, so easy to just be like, want done. And it's like, there's not even really a connection between the fact that you just spent money. And I think that that is what technology has taken our completely normal instincts and just like put it on steroids. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Too easy. I'm not saying we all need to carry around cash and like blah, blah, blah. But I'm just saying like, but yeah, just like those X, make it a little bit harder for yourself so you can think because sometimes it's instinctual. You're like, buy it. And then you'll be like, why don't I just buy yeah so it's not your you just take

your credit card yeah information out of the apps yeah that you have to enter it in so it's a sober second thought yeah the example I use like my client I was testing this out on she was like I literally was about to buy a bathing suit and I had to go upstairs to get my wallet and she was like that's too much work and it's not that she's lazy it's just that she didn't really want it no it's like if you can't go upstairs to get your credit card, you don't really want to buy whatever the thing you want to buy is. You're just having a moment. Yeah, that's it. That's all it is. And so like those things can help big time and they're easy. So easy. Something you can do right now. Well, thanks Shannon for taking the time to chat with me. I'm sure I could talk your ear off for

another hour, but I just encourage more people just to pick up a copy of your book because it's awesome. I love it. Oh, thank you so much. So where can people learn more about you and grab a copy of the book? Yeah. So everything's kind of housed at like newschoolfinance.com. So that's like where the business is and then there's a link for book. And so that would be the best place and you can buy it online or at any major retailers. And yeah, it's been, people have been loving it. So there you go. Yeah. And you also have some online courses on your website too, which I think are awesome. Yeah. So get on track, um, is the one that I, I usually bring that up first. Cause it's like, it's literally for anyone if you're 20 or like 50, it doesn't matter if you want to get your

finances on track. Uh, and then there's also, if you're in a partner, then if you're in a couple budget with your boo is like, that's one of the words from like psychotherapists and stuff like that as being like something that all couples should do to like get on track with their money. So, um, budget with your boo and get on track with the two heavy hitters. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks. Well, it was a pleasure chatting with you. Oh, my pleasure. And thanks so much for having me. And that was episode 151 with Shannon Lee Simmons, the author of Worry-Free Money. And she, again, as I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, she has her own financial planning practice called the New School of Finance. You can learn more about that at newschooloffinance.com.

Learn more about Shannon at shannonleesimmons.com. And yeah, she's an awesome lady, isn't she? If you want to grab a copy of her book, I highly recommend it. Of course, there's probably copies at the library, but if you want to support a new author, make sure to go to any kind of bookstore or online on Amazon and grab a copy. And make sure, as I recommend for all of the authors I've been interviewing, especially the new authors I've been interviewing, make sure to, you know, support them by going on, you know, Amazon or Goodreads and giving them a review. It really helps them. Now, before I let you go, there's two very important special announcements

that I want to let you know about. But before I get to those two, here's just a few words about this episode's sponsor. Support for this episode comes from Planswell. Have no idea what you're doing with your money? It sounds like you would need a financial plan to get your money organized. And lucky for you, you can do it yourself online with a super smart technology company called Planswell, currently available only in Canada. But what is a financial plan in the first place? At a high level, a financial plan shows you the absolute best thing to do with your money every month so you can enjoy the highest possible standard of living for the rest of your life. Planswell is the first company in the world to help Canadians build free, top-quality financial plans completely digitally and in only minutes. It takes into consideration the

three main pillars of a financial plan, smart wealth accumulation, the right insurance coverage, and efficient borrowing. Getting a handle of your financial future has never been more accessible. And PlanSwell is currently offering Mo Money podcast listeners not only a free financial plan, but also up to $20,000 worth of investments managed for free for the first year. If you currently have $20,000 invested in mutual funds, you could switch and save somewhere around $500 in fees. To get started, visit planswell.com slash mo money. Again, that's planswell.com slash mo money. And to learn more about Planswell, make sure to check out my video review either in the show notes or at jessicamorehouse.com slash planswell review.

So I think I forgot to mention, make sure to go to the show notes, jessicamorehouse.com slash 151 for more information about stuff that we talked about and some links, but also some more information about these two with special announcements. So number one, I am running a contest, a book giveaway. I'm giving away three signed copies of the second edition, the newest edition of John Robertson's book, The Value of Simple. It is the go-to book, in my opinion, if you want to get started with DIY investing, investing in index funds and ETFs and doing it yourself because it is way cheaper to do it yourself. And also you have more insight into what's actually going on with your investments. It is the go-to book because honestly, it's one

of the few books out there that specifically says, especially if you're Canadian, sorry Americans, but this is for kind of Canadians, how to get started. So, you know, how to actually, you know, make a investment plan for yourself and then where to go to actually invest your monies. So I'm giving away three copies of his book, The Value of Simple. Make sure to go to jessicamorhouse.com slash value of simple contest to enter to win one of those copies, or just check out the show notes, jessicamorris.com slash 151. And also, second announcement is I am doing a tax webinar. I know, super exciting, but super important for anyone who is self-employed, freelancers, has the side hustle, and is kind of freaking out because it's tax season. And well, you know, there's a lot of

complexities when it comes to taxes when you are self-employed or make some money on the side. Well, anyways, I know this as I am also self-employed and taxes are kind of a headache. And I'm joining forces with my pal, Lisa Zamparo. And you may remember that name because she was the special guest at my last Millennial Money Meetup back in the fall. And she is a CPA. She's working towards becoming a fully-fledged CFP. She knows what she's talking about when it comes to taxes. And so we are coming together to do a webinar all about taxes for those of you who are self-employed or have a side hustle or just want to join us. Because you don't have to be.

But that's kind of what we're going to be talking about. So if you want to sign up for our free webinar, which will be going down live Tuesday, March 27th at 7 p.m. Eastern Time, check out the show notes as always. Or go to JessicaMurhouse.com slash tax webinar. I made it easy for you to remember to register. There's a hundred seats available and they're already, well, people are already, you know, registering. So make sure to, you know, grab your seat, save your seat and join us next Tuesday to learn all things taxes for a self-employed. It'll be a bunch of fun. And of course, part of it will include a Q&A. So if you have specific questions that you would like a tax expert to answer, well, this is a great opportunity to ask Lisa. So that is it for me.

I'll be back here next Wednesday with a fresh new episode for y'all. And yeah, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I enjoyed you making it or I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm hungry. It's lunchtime and that is what it is. So I will see you then.