More Money Podcast - 161 How Mindfulness Leads to Better Money Decisions - Laurie J. Cameron, Author of The Mindful Day

Episode Date: May 30, 2018

If we're not mindful with our money, that's when mistakes happen. Stupid mistakes. Mistakes that are 100% avoidable. Mindfulness plays a bit role in our financial lives, which is why for this episode I interview Laurie J. Cameron, author of The Mindful Day, to explore this topic in-depth. Long description: It was such a treat to have Laurie J. Cameron on the show to talk in-depth about mindfulness, and what role it plays in our financial lives, and our lives in general. Mindfulness, as you may already know, has become a sort of buzz word lately. Millennials especially are desperate for a solution to their digital anxiety, and mindfulness practice is being adopted at a very high rate (for a very good reason). I myself have been trying to practice mindfulness. As I mentioned in this episode, I sometimes feel like I’m always chain to a computer, my phone and there are just a million things to do. What’s worse is because I feel perpetually busy, most of the time I’m just working on auto-pilot, without really taking a moment to consider what I’m doing. And when it comes to money, you don’t want to be on auto-pilot. You want to be mindful of every decision you make, so you know you’re making the right decision, not the just easiest one. I know I’m not alone, and I know that this is no way to live. It’s not sustainable and it just leads to more stress and anxiety, and who wants that? This is why I wanted to have Laurie on the show. To share her wisdom with us and to provide some helpful practices we can all start doing right now in our daily lives. For full episode show notes, visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/161 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to episode 161 of the Mo Money Podcast. It's me, it's Jessica Morehouse, back with another amazing episode for you. This one about mindfulness. Mindfulness is a topic that I feel like a lot of people may not necessarily associate with money, but it's actually a topic that's also becoming increasingly more popular. A lot more personal finance experts and authors and bloggers and podcasters, oh my, are talking about. And I think there's some real big reasons why. Mindfulness has to do with being more conscious, more aware of our decisions. Now, this can apply to any area of life. I think it's very significant in your personal finance life because a lot of the times we are earning money, we are spending money, and it's almost unconscious. It's almost

automatic. We're on autopilot a lot of these times. You know, it's so easy, especially when it comes to spending just to swipe or tap or whatever, and then completely forget what we just did. I am completely, you know, someone who does this all the time, and I'm trying to get better at it. So that's why I really wanted to have my next guest on for us to really go deep and talk more about mindfulness and how we can integrate this more into our lives and not make it another thing that we have to check off or whatever, just like integrate it seamlessly into our lives. So we can kind of reap the rewards of doing that. So

I am going to be talking with Lori Cameron. She is the author of the National Geographic book, The Mindful Day, Practical Ways to Find Focus, Calm, and Joy from Morning to Evening, which is now out. And we go through a ton of different things, but really I just wanted to kind of get to know what are some of the basics of mindfulness? What are some actionable things that we can all do today in our daily lives to practice it and what are some of the benefits of doing this over the long term. So we get into all of this amazing stuff in this episode before I get to that interview with Lori. Just a few words about this episode's sponsor. It's spring cleaning time, but I'm not talking about decluttering your home. I'm talking about

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FreshBooks has been making really intuitive cloud accounting software. And as a result, they've carved out a massive following of freelancers and self-employed folks like myself. Not only is FreshBooks ridiculously easy to use, it also has a number of powerful features. You can create an invoice in under 30 seconds. You can make professional looking proposals that include a project outline, scope of work, and timeline. You can even link your bank account so your business expenses are automatically added to FreshBooks. You see, there's a reason I've

been using it for the past few years, and that's because it's simple and it works. And FreshBooks is offering Mo Money Podcast listeners a 30-day unrestricted free trial when you go to freshbooks.com slash mo and enter Mo Money Podcast in the How Did You Hear About Us section. Once again, go to freshbooks.com slash mo and enter Mo Money Podcast in the How Did You Hear About Us section. Thank you so much, Lori, for joining me on the Mo Money Podcast. Oh, it's so good to be here. I'm very excited to pick your brain and chat all things mindfulness with you. Mindfulness is a topic that I feel like that word wasn't as in use maybe a few years ago, but now, especially in the personal finance

community, it is something that a lot of people are talking about. Lots of talk about money mindset because I think what we're realizing is money is way more than dollars and cents. It's more than math. It's more than picking the right stocks. It really has to do with psychology. And so I'm very excited to kind of talk to you about some of that today. But before we kind of jump in, I would love to know a little bit about you. I know you're the CEO of Purpose Blue. What do you do there and how did you get into the mindfulness space? So yes, so Purpose Blue is a consulting, coaching, and training organization. And we create programs to help people be more conscious at work in particular. So I'm mostly working with companies around the world like Deloitte. I'm a partner for Deloitte, which is a firm that's squarely in the finance world.

So I work with accountants and tax advisors and consultants all over the U.S. and helping them become more mindful, present, conscious, and choiceful. And I've been in the field of human performance and human development for more than two decades. So I started at Accenture, the management consulting firm, really in the commitment or in the focus of talent development, human performance, and change. So why is it that some organizations thrive? What is it about their cultures and their people and their work processes and their skills? And how can we build up the capacity of individuals, teams, and companies.

So I've always been in that field. 22 years ago, I was introduced to this idea of mindfulness by one of my clients when I was at Accenture, and I started training in the skills of strengthening the mind. So mindfulness involves both very measurable concrete skills, as well as mindsets or attitudes or principles, kind of the compass or the guiding way we interpret our actions and what we do. So it's both skills and mindsets. I love that. Why do you feel like, or I mean, I would like to get your perspective on it.

Why do you feel like more people are more interested in learning mindfulness? I know at least from my generation, millennials really starting to talk about mindfulness, meditation, doing yoga, doing digital detoxes and stuff like that. Why do you feel like right now more people are talking about it? I think that's such a great question because it's been around for 2,500 years. So why now? There's a couple of forces that are coming together that are creating this revolution. One is that we have the neuroscience now. We've only had research in the last 10 years, which might sound like a long time for some people, but it's fairly new if you think about human evolution. And really in the last two or

three years that show the exact or close to the transformation that's happening in the structure of our brains when we meditate. So we can see what's happening in the structure of our brains when we meditate. So we can see what's happening in the prefrontal cortex where we make decisions and focus. We can see what's happening in the insula. That's sort of the part of the brain associated with tracking emotions, which as you know, are very much a part of money. Absolutely. It's very emotional. So we can see now that by doing certain meditations, we can measure how people can shift their state. So we can see the immediate effect of meditation and mindfulness. And what's even more exciting is we can see the long-term altered traits. So I can actually use my mind to change my brain,

which then changes my mind, changes how I interact in the world. So we've got neuroscience, and then we've got the fact that, as you know very well, we're connected to technology 24-7 now. And that wasn't true of the generations before us. So Accenture calls to this day and age the attention economy. And it's all about grabbing attention and whoever can harness attention wins. So we need to cultivate the skills to take back our attention and be more deliberate with what we're attending to. And do you think, I guess a lot of that has to do with, there's just so many options. There's so much information. There's so many opportunities because there is so much information and because

of the internet. I mean, you know, you just talking about that. I'm like, yeah, I have a hard time focusing. And I feel like when I was younger, before social media, I didn't have that problem. As I've gotten older, I feel like, I mean, just like right now, I have some notes written down to some talking points. And in that browser, there's four tabs open. And that's pretty good. Usually, there's like 10 tabs open. So like, what is going on? So that's great. So the, you know, the, some of the pain points that, um, people come to me with, I'm, you know, I'm a coach and when I'm working with leadership teams or different companies is what you did, what you named focus and overwhelm. So the challenge is with all the fantastic content that we do have available,

how do we focus? And the other thing is a lot of us now are working more as free agents. We're working on multiple projects with multiple clients. And when we're in that world, they all don't know about each other. So everyone's got deadlines and demands and all that. So we have to navigate differently and we need the skills to be able to focus during overwhelm. And what mindfulness does is teach us how to pay attention deliberately. So it's paying attention on purpose in the present moment and doing that with a mindset of openness and curiosity. So you can think of it as there's a skill of attention and then there's a skill of meta attention or meta awareness,

which is my ability to know where my attention is. And that second part is just as powerful as the first part. So when I realize that I'm lost, I've fallen down a rabbit hole on Facebook or on Instagram, which is more my favorite. If I'm cruising Instagram or I'm deep in thought on an email that isn't even a top priority, then as soon as I realize that moment of awareness that this is not a priority, this is not what I need to be focused on, that's a moment of mindfulness. So I realize that and I bring my attention back to what's important. Yeah. And I think that's a skill that most of us have lost. I'm speaking for myself, but I know a lot of people will be on social media or be doing something, watching Netflix, and it'll just queue up the next episode.

And we've almost lost the ability to have that moment of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what am I doing right now? You'll just be doing the same thing for a couple hours and realize that you've actually lost a couple hours because you weren't even doing the thing that you first intended to do. But when you were talking, a word kind of popped into my brain. And I wonder if this is part of mindfulness or not. Maybe it's just a different strategy. But one of the things, because I feel, yeah, we are always go, go, go. We are doing a

lot of different things. We're always multitasking. One thing that I try to do to keep myself sane is use like kind of the word compartmentalize. And that's what a lot of people talk about. It's like, well, you have to, and is that kind of the same thing as realizing what you need to focus on? Or is that kind of a different thing, do you think? Well, it depends on what we're talking about. So when we use the word compartmentalize, which is used by, you know, Sheryl Sandberg andyl Sandberg and an executive at Facebook and other people. If we're talking about emotions, it's not the best approach. Because when we compartmentalize emotions, often we are denying them or suppressing them or avoiding them.

So I might have an interaction with a client or my boss and feel really triggered. You know, feel like, okay, this project I've been working on just got the funding pulled away from it. You know, what do I do now? So I feel really triggered. And if I compartmentalize myself, if I say, okay, I'm just going to put a box around that and move it to the side, all that emotion that's suppressed is really unhealthy. One, it creates a lot of negative health outcomes. That's cortisol and adrenaline and all the inflammation. But also it's kind of

percolating. It's simmering. And in my next meeting or a meeting at the end of the day, or I walk into my apartment and talk to a roommate or a partner, I can be more irritable and impatient and blurt things out and be not the present, open, connected person I want to be because I'm compartmentalizing all these arenas. So what we want to learn to do is openly acknowledge and allow whatever's happening. So that's a different strategy than suppressing or pushing away. It's a word that's used all the time. I love that you put it up.

It is. Yeah, because it always seemed like that was what successful people do because there's so many things going on. How do you like I love the idea of being able to kind of just deal with things as they come. But it seems hard to put into practice, like just like your example, going into your boss's office and you don't get the outcome you like. How normally what I would do is just suppress that and deal with it when I get home, cry or, or just, you know, rant later. Like what, how did actually responsibly, professionally deal with something like that in the moment? So it doesn't like fester. Yeah. So that's a great question. So, cause that happens to all of us every day,

one way or the other. So what we do is we acknowledge the emotion that's there right now. Maybe when you're standing in your boss's office or when you're walking out or you get back at your desk and you say, whoa, I've got this heaviness in my chest. My hands are sweaty. My heart's beating fast. And the reason I'm listing those physiological signs is emotions are physiological sensations that begin in the body. And with mindfulness, we train ourselves to recognize those physiological signs. So they give us information. And so we say, okay, this is here. What's this about?

And you might say, I'm feeling like I've lost autonomy on this project. Or I don't feel like my boss sees me as competent because they took the funding or cut my head count or whatever it is. We use inquiry to ask ourselves, what am I believing? What's going on here? What emotions are here? And even with that question,

even that little space and by acknowledging the emotion and asking the question, we start to dissipate that emotion. So instead of bottling it up or compartmentalizing it, we just allow, we give it some air, we create some space. And then we do the next step, which is skillful action. So then we say, what would the wise, skillful thing, what would be my next best action or

what can I do right now that would be skillful? And perhaps in that scenario, it's, you know, I'm going to write an email in a couple of hours to my boss, summarizing what I think happened in that meeting and what recommendation I have for next step, or I'm going to request a follow-up meeting on Tuesday. So we can think from a clear space because we've allowed the emotion. If I stuff it down, I might jump into the next meeting or blast off the next email or text my friends to say, meet me at the bar at six o'clock. And I don't really get the chance to be wise and operate from clarity. I like that. So instead of kind of, yeah, just like pushing it down and then letting it kind of explode later, if you kind of just deal with it in more, it seems kind of like in my mind, I visualize something just a little bit more consistent and you just kind of let it breathe and move out. And then it won't have that kind of big emotion. You'll have kind of just more of a calmer, more consistent. It allows for things to settle again. Yeah. So there's the, the idea is,

you know, emotions have a wave. You can imagine, you know, like a, a sine wave and they, they begin and then they peak and then they go, they go away. And, and we actually do a couple of different things. Either we, we start to fuel that fire by throwing more logs on, playing back all the times the boss has done this to us or blaming ourselves, our inner critic kicks in and we start to fuel that emotion so it lasts, right? We either do that or we suppress it or stuff it down or deny it, which also doesn't allow the emotion to just ride its ways. And so we create space, we let it take its course, and then we get smart and then we get skillful.

And I guess what kind of happens is you start making smarter, better choices for yourself. It seems like the best outcome or benefit to adding mindfulness, which is kind of how I think of it in terms of personal finance. If you integrate mindfulness in all areas of your life, you'll make better choices. Those will include your financial choices. I think a lot of the reasons people make money mistakes, they make bad choices, poor choices, is because it is rooted in emotion and not being wise, like you say. Yeah. And I will say, you just summarized that so well. And I wanted to give you and your listeners a practice, a very simple practice they can use in that example with a boss, or maybe they're sitting down with their monthly budget

and they want to shift things around and say, is my spending in alignment with what matters most? So this simple practice is called three breaths. And in the first breath, you bring your attention to breathing. So what we're doing there is taking our attention out of the swirling, ruminating thoughts or out of the tsunami of emotion in the body and just bringing it to the process of breathing in and out. Because what that does is calm our nervous system and create a little space. And then the second breath, we bring attention to relaxing the body. So you just tell yourself, relax. And you think about your body, you just, youench your fists. Let go of your clenched jaw or your tight back and just relax the body. And then the third breath, you say, what's important now?

So when I do this in real time, it's just three breaths. I drew it out to explain it. So I'll just do, and we can do this together, you know, just breathe, relax, and ask what's important now. So it's three breaths. And that's something where we can create space during the day. And we can also, you also, when we're sitting down for a meeting with a financial advisor, or if you are a financial advisor, when you're meeting with a client and they get emotional around money decisions, which is inevitable, then you can do that practice. It's like putting the oxygen mask on yourself. Or you can even teach it to your client

if you work with clients. Yeah. It's just a great way to integrate mindfulness in the day. Very easy. So you have a book coming out, which is very exciting. It's called The Mindful Day, Practical Ways to Find Focus, Calm, and Joy from Morning to Evening. And again, mindfulness and these kind of practices are becoming so, which were talked about and popular, especially with millennials who lots of us grew up with the internet and social media and feel that overwhelm all the time. And then a lot of us, you know, have a day job.

We have a social life. We have money to deal with. We may have a side hustle. So we have an extra job on top of that. All these different things going on. And I know a lot of us, when I, to a lot of people for my financial counseling practice, it's the overwhelm. It's the feel that they don't have control.

And it seems like that's another kind of thing that mindfulness will help you is to kind of gain back control of your life and your decisions. So I would like to talk a little bit about what else do you talk about in your book that people can expect to read? Well, one of the key themes of the book is that you don't have to go on a mindfulness retreat. You don't have to sign up for a Monday night class because all the people I work with say, I don't have time for one more thing.

I get that mindfulness is important. I've heard a little bit about the science, but I can't do it. Do not add anything. So this entire book is structured around a day. This was the brilliance of National Geographic. They're the publishers. And they said, you know what? We need practical, accessible ways to learn how to be mindful in the very day we already have. So we structured it in the first

section is home. So from waking up, what are you doing in your bed? What are you doing when you step out? What does it mean to take a shower with mindfulness? How can I be present and notice the smell of the shower gel and the feel of the water on my body, those, if I'm using my senses, I'm in the present moment, I'm mindful. So I, versus planning my day and thinking about meetings coming up or replaying a conversation with my boyfriend

the night before, I could actually be mindful in the shower. So it takes us through the day from commuting to focusing during overwhelming work, having difficult conversations, prioritizing, finding your purpose to play. A lot of us love, we work hard and we play hard. And I'm an open water swimmer. I love dancing. I love, I'm a painter. So how can I use these activities that I love to integrate mindfulness into how I play and how I hang out with others?

And then there's a whole section on love. You know, relationships are what matters. So how can I see my friends and people I love and people I work with, with a beginner's mind, with fresh eyes? We sort of assess people and have an idea about them, and then we just hang on to that idea. We don't notice when they're changing and growing. And so how do we bring mindfulness into self-care and self-love and how we love others. And then there's home. So when I come in the door at the end of the day and I've got all that stress from the day and all that amped up energy, how can I transition to really arriving in my day, connecting with people

I live with, cultivating a home that is beautiful and decluttered so it supports being present. So it's a sanctuary. And then how do I have a bedtime routine and ease into sleep so I really rest? So it really goes through the day because I agree with you, we're all overwhelmed these days and we don't need an additional program. We need to be mindful in the day we already have. Exactly. And make it simple that we can find five minutes here, 10 minutes there, whatever. Because I mean, just thinking of what you're talking about, I mean, people, you know, when I used to work in the corporate world, I would have my long commute and stuff.

I would be able to practice some of these things when I was just waiting on the subway. And wouldn't I be in a better mood when going, you know, to the offices if I was doing that every, you know, on the way to the office and back home from the office, very easy things to, uh, integrate. Um, you know, before I let you go, uh, just to kind of reiterate, what are some of the kind of outcomes or just long-term benefits that people can experience by practicing mindfulness? I think some people may think that's just something that you do a couple times and then you're good to go. But it's a lifestyle thing. You have to integrate it, and it's kind of a long-term strategy a little bit. Well, you just said that beautifully, so thank you.

So it is more than a set of tips. It's not techniques and tips. It's actually building new skills. So you can think of it as taking your mind to the gym and building up the skills of attention. I don't like to use the word control, but it really is attentional stability. I can direct my attention in this crazy distracted world where I want it to be, and I can maintain my attention. That is a really hard thing for us to do. We actually have an attention span that's shorter than a goldfish. It's shorter than, it's about nine seconds before we get distracted. So I can maintain attention. I can regulate emotions. So when I feel that tsunami of a big emotion coming in, I recognize it very early on because I've trained with a

body scan practice and I'm tuned in and I can down-regulate emotions. And then I increase my self-awareness. This is so powerful. We're finding in research with successful people all over the world that what sets them apart is that they're self-aware. They recognize how they show up with others. They recognize their emotions real time in the moment when they're having them and they can shift their state. They recognize their patterns and they know what their strengths are. So they can make choices that align with that and they can do less of things that aren't serving them. So self-awareness is big. And for me, I would summarize it as I alleviate the suffering, the stress in everyday life. I kind of go through life with a little more easygoingness. I have more self-confidence. I know that whatever happens, I can take a breath and navigate it with more ease. So I have less stress and I have more joy.

So I bring mindfulness. I'm paying attention to the good, to the good in each moment or when I'm noticing there's so much to notice in all of our lives. I notice it and I take it in. There's a practice in the book called taking in the good. I actually install it, like I'm installing a little software program in the moment. So it goes into my body and my heart and mind, and it's not just a fleeting moment. So I can amplify joy and savor life more, and I can reduce the stress, the rub, the freneticism, the multitasking, the anxiety, the hard stuff goes down. And I think that that for me is the incredible power of mindfulness. A hundred percent. That sounds amazing. I want to definitely grab a copy of your book and start integrating it right now. Say with my husband, because that is always something that we talk about constantly. I think this is with lots of people. It's like, we know the issue. The issue

is we're anxious, we're stressed, we're tired, we're overwhelmed. But I think a lot of us are still at the beginning stage of figuring out that solution. So where can more people find out more information about you and grab a copy of your book? Oh, thank you. I would love to hear from your listeners. They can join my mindfulness community at PurposeBlue.com. That's the name of my company. And we've got a great, vibrant community there. And I'm very active on Instagram. So find me there at Laurie J. Cameron.

I release the practices and the teachings and all kinds of stuff through Instagram. And my book is available now on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and wherever books are sold. And I would just love your listeners to read it and let me know on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook or in my community, what are the different situations that are in the book that really spoke to them? the different challenges or the different things that bring them happiness and joy and how they're integrating these practices in their own life. Yeah, absolutely. And I want to hear from you and your husband. I will. I'll give you an update because believe me, we've been trying to figure out, we've been trying lots of different

things. And it's funny that I'm talking to you too, because several months ago, we signed up to do this. I think it was a week or maybe it was a weekend and it was kind of a meditation, a silence retreat. And we both realized, we look at our calendars and we're like, we just don't have time to dedicate all that time to hopefully kind of jumpstart this mindfulness journey. And so we both canceled. But, and I think it's because we realized it's like, I need something that I could integrate my day, not have some kind of special, you know, event that was great for that time. But in real life, it's hard to integrate. So I will definitely grab a copy of your book and try it out and let you know how it goes. Oh, that would be great. I'll, I'll offer you a follow-up call with me.

Either we can do it on the podcast or we can do a half an hour Zoom session one-on-one, but just to hear what you and your husband have tried and what's working or what you think is like, no way, that would never be us. And I'm sure you're going to find different things. So one of the key messages too is there's no one size fits all formula. We have different personalities and preferences, but it's about creating space in the middle of it all. So how do we do that? And then just be more conscious about our choices,

whether it's money or time or energy, which are all kind of similar. How can we be more purposeful with how we spend it and how we save it? Absolutely. Well, Lori, it was a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much. You too.

And that was episode 161 of the Momenty Podcast with Lori Cameron. She is the author of the book that you'll probably want to pick up because I'm going to pick it up too. It's called The Mindful Day, Practical Ways to Find Focus, Calm, and Joy from Morning to Evening. You can grab your copy on Amazon or wherever books are sold. You can also find out more about her and her organization Purpose Blue at purposeblue.com. And of course, make sure to check out the show notes for more information about stuff that we

talked about at jessicamorehouse.com slash 161. So don't go away. Just a few more things I want to share with you. But before I get to that, here's a few words about this episode's sponsor. Track your hours, format the estimate, work out taxes, capture your expenses, chase that late payment, prepare the invoice, submit the proposal. Welcome to the worst part of being a freelancer, otherwise known as paperwork. The good news is that the good people at FreshBooks have created a ridiculously easy cloud accounting software for freelancers that turns tackling these time-sucking, never-ending tasks into no big thing. Send a polished invoice in 30 seconds, set yourself up to get paid online in two clicks,

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All right. Well, I'm so excited to dive more into Lori's book. And you can too, if you like, because I'm actually including that book in my book giveaway. That's right. So I've been interviewing a ton of authors this season, and there's been some amazing books, inspiring books, and I've been inspired by reading them. And I want to inspire you to get you moving and motivated with your money and your life. So if you want to enter to win a copy of one of the books by the authors that I have featured on this season, and there's a long list, head on over to JessicaMorehouse.com book giveaway or the show notes of course jessicamorehouse.com 161 more information on how you can enter to win a copy of a book for free um yeah this is actually kind of like the perfect time to grab a book go outside and just read and absorb and get inspired um so yeah head on over jessicamorehouse.com slash book giveaway. Also, one last thing to remind you of, today's the last day that you can take advantage of my special promo for the Rich and Fit courses that me and my business partner, Jacqueline

Phillips, have going on. You can check more out about them at richandfit.co. But basically, we've got the Rich and Fit Boot Camp, which is a six-week boot camp all about whipping your finances and physique into shape. Then we also have the Rich and Fit Financial Foundation. So this is just a course about getting your finances right in six weeks, everything you need to know about setting yourself up with a solid financial foundation. And if you just want to focus on your fitness, we've got Rich and Fit Fitness Foundation. It's a six-week course with meal plans, workouts, videos, everything you need to do to create a solid fitness foundation for yourself. So if you want to take this opportunity

to actually take action and get your money, get your body right, then make sure to visit our website, richandfit.co, under the courses category or courses section. So it's richandfit.co slash courses if you like. And if you want to purchase, make sure to use the promo code MoMoney to get 20% off your purchase. This is the last day to do it. So take advantage of it. Again, I'll include all this information in the show notes, jessicamorehouse.com slash 161. All right, that is it for me. I'll be back here next week. We have got four more episodes before this season wraps up and I take the summer off. So make sure to hit that subscribe button. Make sure to leave me in iTunes review if you liked what you heard today or in the past and you want to get a shout out on a future episode, which I will be doing moving forward with the next couple

of episodes doing shout outs. Make sure to do that right now. It takes two seconds. iTunes review. You will not regret it. And it'll just be fun hearing your name and your review out loud from me. Okay, that's it for me. Have a good rest of your week. Really appreciate you listening. I'll see you back here next Wednesday for a fresh new episode of the Mo Money Podcast. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.