More Money Podcast - 165 Get Paid Your Worth: Negotiation Tips - Kathlyn Hart, Salary Negotiation Coach

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 165 of the MoMini podcast and the season finale of the show. This is the last episode in season six, and I'm going to be taking a bit of a breaky break throughout July and August, then I'll be back in September because I need a break. I need a break to just, you know, not podcast, not think about podcasting for a little bit. Well, for a little bit, really, it'll be like a couple weeks that I won't do anything podcasting related. And then I'll just like start going crazy trying to find new guests for the next season because two months go real, real quick. And I need to get my stuff together. So that being said, I've got a show for you.

Starting point is 00:00:46 I can't wait. You're going to love this one. I have Kathleen Hart on the show. She is a salary negotiation coach. She is also the host of The Big Leap Show. So she's a podcaster herself. And we dive deep into negotiating and tactics and what you should do in an interview and just stuff that I, damn, I really wish I knew seven years ago, you know, or right when I finished university,

Starting point is 00:01:14 because pretty much at the end of the episode, I realized I did it wrong. I did all of it wrong. I did it really, really, really wrong. And well, I mean, it's not all that bad. I mean, it is what it is. I am where I am now and I'm happy where I am. But yeah, looking back, my kind of jaunt in the corporate world didn't do it so right. I probably did all the mistakes. So we talk a lot about what are those mistakes? What are the things that you should be doing? Because just the corporate world or just working has changed so much. Thanks, internet and social media. And also with everything going on, especially if you're a woman, you know what's going on. All this stuff about us trying to now fight for kind of our place at the table, earning

Starting point is 00:02:03 what we're actually worth, pay equity, all that good stuff. We talk about it all in this episode. You're going to love it. But before I get to this interview with Kathleen, just a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is brought to you by CanSpace.ca. Are you a Canadian business owner or entrepreneur? If so, today's sponsor has something special for you. CanSpace.ca. Are you a Canadian business owner or entrepreneur? If so, today's sponsor has something special for you. CanSpace.ca, Canada's leading web hosting provider, is offering all Mo Money podcast listeners $10 off their web hosting services. Why should you care? Well, in 2018, we all know that your business's success depends on you having a website that is reliable and loads as fast as possible. CanSpace has been trusted for over 10 years by Canada's largest corporations for providing

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Starting point is 00:03:38 the $10 off coupon. Thank you, Kathleen, for joining me on the Mominy Podcast. I can't wait to talk to you. I have a lot of questions. Let's get to it. Let's get to it. Question number one. important now, especially just feel like us as women, all the movements going on, we really need to kind of take control of our lives and be more accountable and just confident for asking what we are worth, which is something that I really wish I knew in my 20s. I had no idea this was, you know, like negotiating with a thing. I literally didn't know you're supposed to do that, which I'm very ashamed for because there's all these missed opportunities, missed money on the

Starting point is 00:04:23 table and all that kind of stuff. But before we kind of talk about negotiating tactics and all that kind of stuff, what is kind of your background? Because I know it sounds like you have a very similar story to myself in that you did work kind of in the corporate world or kind of a nine to five and then you kind of felt a little, you know, you know, an itch like this wasn't enough. There's got to be more to life than this. Yeah. The walking zombie to me. I was like, I can't do this anymore. Um, and totally fine. Like there's all the people I help now are working nine to five. Um, so it, you know, it's a beautiful place for some people. For me, I was like, I had this itch. I want to go travel the world. I want to see if I can start my own business. Um, but yeah, I came from similar place where I was working in nonprofit. And for me, that's when I first

Starting point is 00:05:08 started learning, like negotiating was the thing. My first job out of college, I think so many of us were just like, Oh my God, somebody wants to pay me. It's like, thank you for giving me a job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so amazing. I'm so excited to just start, you know, after going to school for so many years. So that's what I did. And I didn't even think to just start, you know, after going to school for so many years. So that's what I did. And I didn't even think twice about it, you know, and I feel like, you know, I feel like I'm a smart girl. So many of us feel like, you know, I'm a smart person. I got educated, but yeah, we don't know this thing. And so what had happened was I started living like literally paycheck to paycheck and I was getting so frustrated. I was like, is this really what I want to be doing for the rest of my life? And just feeling like I was seeing all of my friends,

Starting point is 00:05:48 you know, all over Facebook, going to Thailand, going to Bali, going to all these amazing places like, oh, what am I doing? Like, I want that life. So I did the calculations and I found it was going to take me over eight years to be able to go on like a three month trip on my salary. And I was like, that's not going to cut it. So I did what I thought I was supposed to do, which was I'm going to get two more side jobs. So I was working over 60 hours a week and I was just quickly, quickly burnt out from that as well. I was just like, there's got to be another way. So I started reading money books. And one of the first things that came up was, hey, well, did you negotiate your salary? And I was like, what the heck? Like, why didn't

Starting point is 00:06:23 anyone tell me? So that's like when the first seed was planted. And from there, you know, I negotiated my salary, you know, was able to switch careers, ended up doing actually software design, just following some curiosity. And then eventually I was able to save up enough to quit and start traveling the world. And that's when I started like blogging, kind of like coaching on the side, just trying to help as many people like I want to quit my job too or I want to travel or I want to switch careers. So I was just like, yeah, I want to share everything I know. So that's kind of the world I came from. And now over the past, you know, it's almost been five years now.

Starting point is 00:06:56 Wow. It's evolved into, yeah, it's evolved into, you know, I have some side business. I do coaching. I do speaking. I have a podcast as well that's currently on pause because I'm focusing on our course. I know that you have your course as well. And yeah, it's a lot of work. So I kind of put it on pause while I was doing that because my mind was like, I cannot do two things at once in this way. So yeah, my focus now is just salary negotiation just because I love helping women, especially like I help men, but like I love helping women learn this skill.

Starting point is 00:07:26 Last week, I got a $22,000 raise, helped a girl get that. And another one got a $20,000. Another one, she got a bump. And in addition, she got a $10,000 signing bonus. So like for me, I'm just like, that's game changing. That is game changing. That's life changing for these people. It's life changing. And it's like, not just in that moment, you feel more confident about yourself, you feel more valued, but also just like your whole career trajectory and like where your finances are going. It's going to like exponentially help to support you to create that life. So that's why I just love it so much. Absolutely. And I feel like, especially for like my history of working for employers, never once did I negotiate a salary because i never knew that was even a thing that i was supposed to do i was always just so thankful

Starting point is 00:08:08 because i was always i felt like i was either unemployed desperate for a job or trying to get out of the job because i hated it so i was desperate to get another job so it's always so like oh my god i'll take whatever just get me out of the situation which is never number one that's just not a good space to be in mentally when you were looking for a job you don't want to you know exuberate this desperation. They can smell that on you, I think. And there's also just nothing worse than the feeling of finally getting that job, a better job. And you like it.

Starting point is 00:08:36 And then after like a few months settle in, you're like, I'm not being paid enough. And that was every single job I've ever had. I'm like, I am so not being paid enough for what I'm contributing. And then there's like, what do you do? I think that drives many of us. Exactly. Totally. I think that's what, you know, maybe that's a similar place for you than it was for me. I think I was driven by like, I don't really feel like I'm getting completely what I deserve. And compared to other people, I know I'm getting paid less. So even though I started to negotiate and I started earning a lot more money in my nine to five career, it was actually once I started my own business that I really started like learning the skills of negotiation because you have to.

Starting point is 00:09:14 Your worth is just whatever you say it is. And if you're not able to confidently say that and then, you know, charge enough that's going to be able to financially sustain you, you're not going to make it. So that's when my chops started getting even more sharpened. And I like to bring that experience and what I've learned to help people that are in their jobs, because, you know, maybe, you know, maybe you do have an amazing career and maybe you just want to start a side business. You don't want to pursue it full time. But if it was financially rewarding, then you would stay there longer or you feel more valued or you'd want to. Oh, exactly. Like there's like lots of the jobs that I had, I liked, but I left because I didn't

Starting point is 00:09:50 feel valued and didn't feel like I was being paid enough. And that's probably the case for like a lot of people, a majority of people, that's for sure. And yeah, similar to you, it wasn't until I started my own business on the side that I actually had to learn to negotiate because whenever I was dealing with a client, it was usually on a per project basis. So I had to do a lot of negotiating. It was often. And then you just get into a rhythm, you get into a practice. And I think that's also like a great place to start if you're really uncomfortable with it, which at the time I was because I knew I had nothing to lose because

Starting point is 00:10:22 I had a day job. So if something fell through or I didn't quite get enough or whatever, I could say no because I'm fine. I've got money to live on. This is just kind of a bonus money. But then, of course, it gets a little bit more higher stakes when you do quit that life and now you're working for yourself. But for me, I was always worried that when I quit the corporate life and just worked for myself and had to negotiate with clients all the time that I would kind of get back into that kind of fear mode, not asking for enough. Because I'm like, I need to make money. I need to pay my mortgage and all this stuff. But actually, and I'm surprised by this, I was actually a little bit more aggressive.

Starting point is 00:10:58 I'm like, no, I need this money because this is going to fund my life. And it could depend on to who your clients are. In general, most of my clients are corporations and companies. So I feel more comfortable negotiating with them just because I come from that world a little bit. I feel like it's a different kind of aspect when I'm negotiating or chatting about pricing with one-on-one individuals. I find I am like, okay, this is still something I need to kind of learn about. But anyways, that's a whole other thing I'm sure we'll get more into. I want to go back to just this idea of being someone that's maybe new in their career and is learning

Starting point is 00:11:38 about negotiating for the first time. Hopefully they'll find your podcast or this episode and be like, oh, this is something I should do. What are some things or like a really important first step that they should keep in mind when they're at that interview when the person at the interview is like, so what are your salary expectations? Which I hate. I always hated that because I'm like, I don't know what you got. Where am I supposed to get this number from? Because sometimes they don't list the salary at all. Even if you do a bunch of research, it's really, you're like, is it $40,000? Is it $60,000?

Starting point is 00:12:07 What are we talking? Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh, so many things. So when you're in that place, what you brought up was amazing, is that we don't think about negotiation in the interview, but it really does start much earlier than actual job offer. Hey, let's talk about this. I always say that it actually starts with your job

Starting point is 00:12:25 search because if you're not doing kind of a little bit of research beforehand, even if you can't get exact statistics about, you know, just in terms of even different industries and different companies, company sizes, it changes so drastically. If you're a project manager in textiles, that's completely different than a project manager that's overseeing software engineers. You know what I mean? So, so you have to look at those prices and kind of determine, is this an industry I'm interested in really going into just even taking that same job and applying it to a different industry, to a different company size, different location, et cetera. So that's where I always say it starts. But yeah, once you're getting into the interview, you're so excited. You want them to like you.

Starting point is 00:13:01 You're like, Oh God, this is like, you know, it took me forever to get here because I had to do my resume. I had to do the cover letter. Like I had to do the phone screening. Now they're finally talking to me. But what you said about, you know, what is that price? You don't quite know. It's such a scary thing. And we kind of feel like, okay, well we have to come up with the answer. When, if we think about like for a house, we would never go to the house and then be like, oh, so how much are you selling it for? And they're like, I don't know how much would you pay for it? That would be a red flag. How much you got? We actually also don't want to show you the reports that tell you like the foundation is So it's one of those funny things where we're like in a normal life situation,

Starting point is 00:13:43 we negotiate or we talk about things or it's just a conversation. And we expect both sides to kind of come to the table equally. But in a job environment, it can feel really, really scary. So one thing that I like to encourage people is when those questions do come up about salary expectations, you just shift the focus away for, I really want to make sure it's the right fit. Like you have to take back a little bit of your power in that situation because they're trying to see if you're a good fit. So you kind of feel like, oh, do they like me? Do they like me? Do they like me? You kind of need to shift the dynamics so that you also bring the mentality that you also have to like them. So, hey, you know, I'd be happy to discuss compensation at a later time, but right now,

Starting point is 00:14:21 I just want to really make sure it's a good fit for the both of us. Can you tell me a little bit more? Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about the company culture? What's it like a day in the life here? Or what do you guys like to do come summertime? Is there any activities? In my previous job, we had a softball. Any of those things to just shift back the conversation so that you can take a little bit of power and just meet them back at the table rather than them kind of like standing up and making you feel small. So is it best to wait for them to eventually like share what the number is?

Starting point is 00:14:50 Share the number. That's basically like always try to kind of like pivot until they're like, okay, fine, this is how much. Like I feel like that is the hardest thing. It's like, how do you get that number out of them? Sometimes they're really reluctant and just like sometimes that's just how it is. Yeah, sometimes they totally, totally are really reluctant. And so there's a few things. One is that, yeah, for if it depends

Starting point is 00:15:10 on, I say where you are at in your career, some people are like some salary people are hardline, like never say the first number you're going to give away all of your leverage. And some people are like, you know what, just put the number out there. Then you can like just set the bar for what you want. And there's pros to cons to each. What I kind of tend to say is that if you're newer into your career, you do want them to give you the first number because you could be thinking like 40,000 would be freaking amazing. And they're thinking like 60,000 easily. So if you're earlier in your career, I tend to try to get them to say the first number. If you're much senior in your career, you have standards of what you want. You're not willing to accept anything less than $120,000.

Starting point is 00:15:49 So at that point, you can say, you know, this is as low as I'm willing to go. When you do come to that interview, you know, maybe they keep pushing you, they keep pushing, keep pushing for that number. That's when it is important to have that research, like you said, done in the beginning. You can never fully know what those numbers are, right? Like maybe you do check Glassdoor, you do check your network. And those are all things that I encourage people to do in the course and have scripts and all that stuff. At the end of the day, you do want to bring a number to the table. Two things I would say to keep in mind is that when, and I work mostly with women. So when we say, well, what do you want?

Starting point is 00:16:23 We already say, well, what I you want? We already say, well, what I really, really, really want, but I'm never going to say out loud is 80,000. But like, so, okay. The 80,000 is not reasonable. So like maybe 70, I don't know, 70 is kind of pushing it. So 65. Okay. So when they say, what do you want? You say 65. But what you've done is you've now, you've already done the negotiation for them. You've already brought them down. So if you've done your research and you find that actually 60 to 80 is reasonable, so you don't want to settle at 65. If you feel like it's reasonable, you feel like you have the skills, you feel like you have the experience, you start the conversation at say 80, and then we can come down from there. Don't

Starting point is 00:16:58 do the negotiating for them. So I always, I talk about the three numbers, the wish, the want, and the walk. you want to start the conversation closer to your wish number not what you say is your want so you present to them your wish which you present as their want and then you're almost like mental walk away with the company is actually what your want number is so you try to bring it in that higher range um the other thing that i would say is that we often feel like super uncomfortable. Say we said in the end, we said, you know, at this point, oh, well, before even saying that, I would encourage you to say, you know what, well, based off of my understandings of this position, it's actually changed from what I initially thought it was. So I'm going to have

Starting point is 00:17:36 to go back and do a little bit more research and consult with my, you can say, peers, networks, et cetera. But, you know, if you have a budget in mind, how about we start there? So you can also just shift the conversation within the interview. If they, again, give you the pushback, you know, we're not quite sure. We're also still trying to figure it out. Say, great. Well, how about if you want to, can you send me a range and then I'll get back to you if it fits. Or if they say, well, that's not good. We'd really like to know your number. Then say again, you know, I'm going to have to do a little bit more research. And then you just go back and you kind of collect yourself. When you do finally present that number, we say, again, you know, I'm going to have to do a little bit more research. And then you just go back and you kind of collect yourself. When you do finally present that number, we often feel super, super trapped and like we can't leave that number. And it's what we said.

Starting point is 00:18:13 As the negotiation continues to go on, you can always say, you know what, my understanding of this role has changed. And because of that, you know, I want to revisit what my salary expectations are. That's completely valid and normal. If you were to say that in a normal conversation, you wouldn't use those terms, but it'd be the same thing. You know, if it's like, hey, let's go to a bachelorette party. Like it's, are you down to come? And it's like, yeah, of course I'm down to come. And then it's like, oh, instead of going to the local bar, we're going to go to Austria. And it's like, you still down to come? You know what? Now that my understanding of it has changed, I might not be able to come. I love that. That is the best way

Starting point is 00:18:50 to kind of phrase that. I love that. And you said something that really hit home for me is, and I used to do this, and I know I've talked to so many other women about this. We do tend to, instead of giving our best number, our ideal number of what we'd like, we give her, this is the lowest I'm willing to accept. I don't know why us women especially do that because I feel like when I talk to men, they're like, oh, no, I always kind of say this is what I ideally want. I just say what I want. I just say what I want. Whereas women are like, oh, well, I feel like there's a couple mental setbacks.

Starting point is 00:19:20 We're afraid to look greedy or just money hungry or I don't know. There's just all these kind of negative terms about asking for money. Why do you feel like women have this like, oh, but I don't want them to think ill of me or think that I'm asking for too much because I guess I want them to like me. Yeah. So many things. So, so many things. And one of the first things I like to do whenever I work with somebody is we got to like untangle your money beliefs and we got to untangle like your relationship to asking for more. Because, you know, one of the things that you said is like, I don't want to do too much. And I think that's something that a lot of us feel like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be doing too much. I don't want to ask for too much. I don't want to seem greedy. I don't want to seem ungrateful. We just have so many thoughts and it really depends on, you know, how like your, your culture, your, you know, your geographically, what it's like there, you know, the role of women within your community, how your parents differ and how they talk about money. Does your mom ask up for things? Does your dad, you know, any of, even just like smallest things like at a restaurant,

Starting point is 00:20:25 you know, does your mom or do your sisters, or do you ever speak up for something? Like when you want the waiter's attention, something as small as that can then trickle into how we ask up for things or feel like we're doing too much. And like, oh God, I don't know. I mean, culture and women and beliefs and bias and all of those things are nasty things that we kind of have to untangle. But if you keep in mind for the salary negotiation process, it is expected. Every single hiring manager will expect you to negotiate. Less than 50% of people, both men and women, actually do negotiate. So nobody's doing it, but everyone expects it. Everyone thinks that you're going to look like a complete a-hole if you do it. And a lot of managers actually respect you more.

Starting point is 00:21:08 It also like, we also think like, oh, you know what? I'll just work hard later. And then, then they'll give me the raise. Well, guess what? Our raise is dependent on whatever our base salary is. So if you would negotiate $5,000 more, that 3% raise would be a lot more than what it is otherwise. And they're not going to reward you if you've already accepted the position. Like when you negotiate for a raise, you have to go above and beyond what your role is. Once you've already agreed that it's your number, then that's just your number. So I like to encourage people, like, don't wait to like prove it to them that you're going to do it. You have to do it now. And it also sets the tone. That's another important

Starting point is 00:21:44 thing for us women. You know, I help women where they say, you know, during the whole interview, like it was, everything was going so, so good. And then once I did the negotiation, they were like, whoa, like, wow, I thought she was just a super nice, super flexible girl. So, you know, throughout your interview process, you all, you have to be setting the tone that like, yeah, I stand up for myself and I ask questions and I might be wanting more because then when it does come time for the salary negotiation, they're not going to be like, whoa, who's this girl out of left field. And also once you start your role, they're not going to be like, oh my God, she's doing too much. When you do say, hey, I'd like to sit down and talk about my performance, or I'd like to sit down and look at what does my future

Starting point is 00:22:22 at this company look like? They're going to be like, yeah, that's normal because she's a woman that advocates for herself. So you're really setting yourself up for much longer success other than just the financial. And that's really interesting that you bring up like setting the tone during an interview, which I think this is, again, something that we don't think that much about. We're very focused on, I want them to like me because I feel like that will be why they want to hire me. But actually, if you probably set the tone of, yeah, likable, friendly, however, still confident and professional, they'll probably be, you know, they'll probably interview a bunch of other women that are like, oh, they're really likable. But we really like the woman who just seems like she knows what she's doing. I think she's going to

Starting point is 00:22:56 be a good asset. You know what I mean? Like, this is just something so silly, but it's like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Again, I think a lot of us are worried that we'll come off as bossy or cold or just too hard or something like that. Yeah. Once you say, this is how much I want. Smile. You know, yeah, totally. Because you don't want to come across those ways. And that is a huge fear. And you know what? If you do have a company that's like that woman was a total B it's like, fine. I don't want to work there. Like get the red flags early from the companies and get out of there. Like what a blessing to know that rather than like be stuck in there for one to two years and be like, Oh my God, these people don't respect me. They don't

Starting point is 00:23:38 like listen to me. Everyone's speaking over me. I'm not getting rewarded. Joe is like two years out of college and I'm eight years out of college and he's getting $10,000 more than me. I'm not getting rewarded. Joe is like two years out of college and I'm eight years out of college and he's getting $10,000 more than me. You don't want to be in that position. So you might as well get it out early. Yeah, exactly. And that's actually like recently the past couple of months, I was in a group with a bunch of women doing this kind of mastermind and we were talking about salaries and everyone had a story of, yeah. And then I found out what my guy colleague who has less experience and was less good at his job was making. And they're always making like ten to fifteen thousand dollars more. So awful and heartbreaking.

Starting point is 00:24:16 But what do you feel like? Do you think it's important for us as women, especially to kind of stick together and like have these conversations about like, hey, what are you making? Like, I feel like we're also very afraid to ask, what are you making? I've only ever done that when I was on the way out to be like, I quit. But how did you, how much did you make, by the way? And then I'd always find out and be like, God damn it. I know. Well, I do think it's important for us to have these conversations. I think there's a lot more, like you said, like culturally right now, there's so much more coming out about that. And thank goodness so that people feel a little bit more comfortable. It's still so awkward. Like, you know, most people don't want to say, well, what are you making?

Starting point is 00:24:52 So one thing that I like to frame it in terms of like, you know, encouraging people, because I always encourage you have to reach out to not only just like your direct network, but also mentors and outside. But when you approach people, you don't want to be like, well, what did you make or how much do you make? So one thing that you, I like to encourage people to, and I've got a script for it and I can send you the link for people to get like a few of the scripts. Yeah. It would be, um, you essentially just want to say, Hey, based on my research, like I'm, um, you can say as much as you want in terms of depending on how well you know the person. Like, Hey, I've got four years of experience doing this. Um, this was the past company I worked for. These are kind of roles. I'm looking to work at this

Starting point is 00:25:28 company. I see they have this open position. You know, from my research, it looks like I should be making somewhere between $70,000 and $75,000. Do you think that's reasonable or do you think I should aim higher or lower? So you're not actually asking them, what did you make? Because, you know, that's all very personal and that's all very, maybe they have seven more years on you. So it's not really apples to apples. But if you say, this is what I got and this is what I've done the research and they can say, oh yeah, that's actually about right. Or, no, well, what do you think makes a person go on the higher end? Because what are like the characteristics, maybe certain skills? Maybe they'll say something. It's like, oh, actually, I have that. And that's something important that you need to remember to highlight.

Starting point is 00:26:13 Or they might say, oh, you should take this class and that will bump you up $5,000. It's like, boom, done. I'll do that in a weekend. 100%. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about when you have to negotiate in your current job. We talked a little bit about this, how it's easier to do that when you've already negotiated really good salary for yourself. So when you do say, I want to raise, you'll get a better bump. A lot of us don't do that first thing. And so mid, we've been in the job for a year or two, feel like, okay, not two weeks, you know, year or two. When I talk to women, they're always like, I want to wait a year and then I'm going to talk to them or I'm going to wait two years to really prove that I'm a loyal employee and then I'm going to talk to them.

Starting point is 00:26:51 Well, first off, are your thoughts on, and I think this is just like, it's irrelevant now. It just, I've never heard someone that is, this has actually happened to you where you just work hard, put your head down, proved that you're a hard worker and you get a promotion raise. I've never heard this to happen. Everyone's always had to ask, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:06 Like that's just how it is. You'll probably get the normal one. You'll probably get like the standard 3%, if that. You know, some companies don't even do the 3% every year, which is like, you know, the raising standard of living, that's normal. Everyone should at least get that much. So yeah, always advocate

Starting point is 00:27:22 and it's going to be uncomfortable because if you don't ask, they're just probably going to pass you over for it. Um, one thing that I quickly want to say before I forget is on our last question, I forgot to say, um, it's important for us to talk with other women. It's just as important to talk with other men because like you said, when you find out, oh, actually he's making $10,000 more, it then expands your awareness of what you now realize is possible. It's like, oh, if I just talked to my girlfriends, they're doing $10,000 more, it then expands your awareness of what you now realize is possible. It's like, oh, if I just talk to my girlfriends, they're doing $2,000 more, $2,000 more. You talk to him, $10,000, $15,000. So then you can say, okay, I can aim as high as that. It's not just

Starting point is 00:27:56 a woman thing. It's directly related to your skills and what you bring to the table. Exactly. So yeah, going back. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to remember that because I'm like, make sure you talk to the men too. That's really important too, because we shouldn't just be aiming to earn what other women are making because we're all making less than men. We should be, you know, aiming to earn what the men are making. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. We have to just look at this is my role. This is what I do. This is the experience. These are the skills I bring to the table. What does that equate to? Take gender out of it. Um, yeah. So within the workplace, yeah. Yeah. Even, yeah. I hear that too. Like, Oh, I'll just wait one year. You should never wait to at least begin having conversations about performance, about what are some goals? Because when it does

Starting point is 00:28:36 come time to say, you know, for my raise, you can't just be like, well, I showed up every day. I worked really hard and I stayed long hours or anything like that. I care. It's like none of those things financially will give reason for them to bump up your pay. So you have to be identifying really like what are the big goals and especially if you can link it to like financial goals for the company and how are you contributing to that. And if you can set up those goals with your boss and then track them and keep in contact with them about how they're going and things that you're proud of, it just conditions their mind to think like, yeah, she's moving the ball forward for our team and for the company as a whole.

Starting point is 00:29:14 As you have those conversations too, you build that relationship with your boss. They also, you're going to have more leverage because they're not going to want to lose you. And then it just becomes more comfortable for you to bring up something as awkward as asking for a raise. Because otherwise, you know, if you don't have that relationship, if you've never talked to them about your progress, you don't actually have any goals. Then you wait two years and you say, I'd really like a raise. And they're like, why? Yeah. I just want more money, please. Yes. It's really like setting the groundwork for that. So it's not a big shock and which is hard to do. What would you say? And I find like that can be easy to tie in to be like, oh, this is how I'm helping the company earn more money if you work in, you know, like business development or even marketing. But for some other roles, it's kind of hard. I'm like, I work in IT. Like, how do I show that I'm making the company more money? Do you just, like, how would you kind of tie that in?

Starting point is 00:30:05 Because there's, I think a lot of different departments are like, I think I have a hard time figuring out how I am actually helping the company make more money by me working here. Yeah, totally. Well, when we get raises, it's always still within like a certain pay grade, right? So if you are going higher, it's like, well, what, like that question that I said for asking your network, what actually makes somebody on the higher end? So say you're working in IT and it's not necessarily related towards a thing, but you know that you're dead smack in the middle.

Starting point is 00:30:32 So what would put you on the higher end? Is it that you need to be able to process things quicker? Do you need to learn a new coding language? Do you need to be involved in some of the training? Do you potentially need to just go from this rank and this level of a position to the next level of position in order to get you into a whole new ball game when it comes to our range? But there are a lot of people where they feel like they're kind of stuck there and they're not really getting the raises and they're just going incrementally. At the end of the day, it kind of sucks, but the biggest jump that you'll ever get is when you do change companies. And many people don't want to be in that position because it's hard to change companies, especially if you like it. You don't want to have to start

Starting point is 00:31:09 all over new company culture. You got to figure out your whole new transportation, getting to work, your rhythm and everything. You have to find the new people, figure out all the politics. You don't want to do it. On the whole other side, a company doesn't want to do it. They're going to lose, they say, between six to nine months worth of your annual salary in order to replace you, which is huge, huge money. Like they're going to have to, one, lose the morale of you leaving. They have a gap because no one's taking on those responsibilities. Whoever they find, they're going to have to put the job posting out there. They're going to have to, you know, narrow it down. They're going to have to interview them, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's going to take months. And then they have to like actually train them. And then they have to make sure like, oh, I don't know if this person is actually going to have to interview them, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's going to take months. And then they have to actually train them. And then they have to make sure like,

Starting point is 00:31:47 oh, I don't know if this person is actually going to be good. So you don't want to be in that position. The company doesn't want to be in that position. As much as possible, you try to communicate that to your boss. I don't want to leave here. I love working here. This is something I'm in for the long term. But here's what I'm seeing is that I know that I'm being significantly underpaid. Is this a conversation that you can look further into for me? Or is this something that we can discuss? And I've had people, my biggest jump up until yesterday was somebody that got like a 25% increase in their raise. Yesterday I heard from one of our students, she got a 40% increase. Yes. And they've been putting off this conversation with the raise forever. Like they kept being like,

Starting point is 00:32:32 oh, in January, in March, like in June. And she was like, she was like, we got to have this conversation. And she did it. She brought a huge printout of like all the recordings, like printouts of all the stats of things that she had found and what she should be making and printouts of all the work that she's been doing and how she's going above and beyond. She said she spent $50 at Kinko's in order to do that. But that's huge. She went from what was supposed to be a 3% raise to a 40% raise.

Starting point is 00:32:59 So if you love the company, if you do want to be there, if you can communicate it to them, then they'll be willing to do it. If they aren't, maybe it's just a red flag that it's time to change ships. Well, that kind of leads me to my next question is, is it ever a good idea or what is your, you know, advice on going into negotiations with the kind of ultimatum? Like, if we don't do this, I'm probably going to leave or, you know, like I feel like... It always backfires. Well, I mean, that's how I quit my last job. They called my bluff and I left. Um, I was kind of out the door anyway,

Starting point is 00:33:30 so I kind of wanted to quit. I kind of wanted them to say no, I think in the end, but I guess that is, I think a lot of people's minds when they're at that point where they're frustrated, they don't feel valued. They don't know what to do. They kind of have in their mind. They're like, well, I'm just going to say, if they don't give me what i want then i'm gonna have to quit and in general it probably like i guess when you can yeah i guess like in a situation like that do you think in general employers are just not receptive to that kind of thing yeah well when we think about like so say like a romantic relationship right and like if you have your partner that's like if you don't get married or something you're not yeah you like if you don't get married or something you're

Starting point is 00:34:06 not yeah you're if you don't get married now this year like i'm out and like you can love that person i mean getting married you're probably to the point where you're like i really love you get married but say it's like you're very new in the relationship and they're like hey i want to move in together you're like i'm not ready and they're like hey if we can't move in then i'm out yeah and it's like, dude, you're supposed to be my partner. And if you're putting this much pressure on me and you're, you're making me feel like, like shit, I don't know if I can swear. Yeah. If you're making me feel like shit, it's like, I'm out, dude. Like you're not listening to me. If you keep doing it

Starting point is 00:34:37 and they're not listening to you. And it's like, you know, this isn't the partner for me. So it's that same thing. If you bring that attitude for like, say that partner where they're like, I'm out. It's like, that's not going to work in your favor because you're signaling to them. You're not listening and you're not like in it for the long run and all of those things. So, you know, you did the podcast on like mindfulness and money, like mindfulness, money, and negotiation also go hand in hand because the freaking like nerves, the anxiety, all the anger, everything comes rushing. And if you can't take your emotions out of the equation when it comes to your salary negotiation, it's not going to work. So breathing exercises, trying to calm the F down, also things to make

Starting point is 00:35:18 you feel much more confident. If you can't get to that place, it's not going to be as successful and it's not going to happen overnight. your first negotiation will probably get botched and like the second one will be slightly easier um but I did the same like one of my jobs I was like you guys are like I didn't yell in my mind I was like you're the baby and like I ended up quitting and then like I am I didn't regret it at the end of the day because I was also on my way out. But looking back, I probably could have done it in a much more professional manner and actually got paid more. Okay. Another kind of question related is if, say, you're being recruited or you are kind of like on the hunt, going to some job interviews to test out what else is out there.

Starting point is 00:36:03 Is it ever a good idea to go to your employer to be like, hey, I want to raise, want to promotion, whatever. There's actually this other employer that is interested in me or no. Is it kind of the same thing? Like, well, they make all your bluff. Yeah. I think, yeah, again, if you are kind of on the way out, then maybe. It's up to you. It's also on your relationship with your boss. You have to remember that at the end of the day, their priority is the company. So they could be your best friend, but they're like, hey, this person's on the table. They might start saying, we got to hire somebody ASAP. And we're going to let this person go and then we're going to put the new person in there because their

Starting point is 00:36:36 priority is the company. Also depends on how you want your relationship to be with that manager, the boss moving forward. If you had a good relationship up to this point, don't burden the bridge if you dangle it like an ultimatum. If, however, you really want to be at that company and you have headhunters or whatever reaching out to you that's offering you $20,000 more, you have a serious conversation with the boss, you say, here's my situation. I'm in a tough place. I love this company. I love what I do. I want to be here long-term. You know, I know that, you know, in the market I'm, I'm getting significantly underpaid and I've had a number of, uh, of recruiters reach out to me and they've given me a number of jobs. They're each paying at least $20,000 more. You know, what would you do if you were in my position?

Starting point is 00:37:21 And they might say, that sucks. You have to leave because we don't have that budget. Or they might say, you know what? We're going to look into it. We're going to figure this out. So still be prepared to possibly have to go to where that, you know, like either stay and not get the raise or leave because of the new job opportunity. Yeah. I mean, it's always good to have different things under your belt just so that you feel like you have the ability to go. If you do approach it in the manner of like, hey, I don't want to leave, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, they're going to be less, you're not really going to burn that bridge as much if you bring that kind of relationship to the table. If you do do it like, hey, I got these other offers, are you going to be able to match it? Like then, you know, you should definitely have a backup plan.

Starting point is 00:37:59 Absolutely. Wow. Well, I feel like we touched on, I could probably talk to you for another hour. I am so, even though I don't even work in the corporate world, it's like I did for so long. I have so many and I know I did it wrong. Like I know looking back, I'm like, I totally did it wrong. So, but you have so much wisdom and you mentioned you have a podcast, you have a course you want to talk a little bit about. What can people expect in your course? It sounds really interesting. Yeah. So Be Brave, Get Paid is the name of the course. The podcast is very like, oh, I was just like so lost in like, how are people in life making these leaps? Like whether it's switching careers, starting business, et cetera. So the podcast is all like about the courage component. So not the money component, the courage, like how do you get the courage to

Starting point is 00:38:38 actually take action towards things that you want? You know, doing YouTube and doing videos and doing podcasts, starting a business, switching careers. There's a cold courage component. And so the course Be Brave, Get Paid touches on the courage, but it also just talks about, you know, what is the step-by-step to get the money, starting with untangling your money beliefs, figuring out really how much you're worth, reaching out to your network, using those scripts to just go and start learning how much you should get paid, like how to actually ace the interview, like how to answer all those tough questions that come up. You know, the mental things like I do some visualizations and ways to pump up your energy, as well as like when it comes down to the actual negotiation, what do you do? What do you say?

Starting point is 00:39:18 Like when you get the offer letter, what do you do? Or if they don't want to give you an offer letter, what do you do? Or when you know that you have two offers on the table, what do you do? Or if they don't want to give you an offer letter, what do you do? Or when you know that you have two offers on the table, what do you do? So it just takes you through all of those things with the intention of by the end of this course, I want you to make more money. The guarantee is you'll make a thousand dollars more, like easily. Every single person, the average has been 15,000. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So easily you're going to make more money. I have a guarantee in everything. If you don't make the money, I'll give you your money back. Oh my gosh. That's awesome. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:46 Cause my, my whole goal is like, I just want to help you to become more empowered, to believe in yourself, to advocate for yourself and earn more because I'm almost a hundred percent of you deserve to earn more. You know that you should be earning more, but you don't know how to do it. Um, so the course just takes you through that. That's amazing. Well, that's awesome. I'm definitely going to recommend it to some friends that are looking for a new gig that

Starting point is 00:40:08 are not happy with their current situation. So that is so awesome. Thank you so much, Kathleen, for joining me on the show. It was such a treat talking to you. Oh, it's so great. And thank you so much. I'm so glad we got to actually connect. Oh, if people want the scripts.

Starting point is 00:40:20 Oh, yes. What is that? Yeah. Let me see. I don't have my glasses on. I wrote down the number. Okay. It's the earn Yeah. Let me see. I don't have my glasses on. I wrote down the number. Okay. It's the earn more. I have one of those numbers. So if you text earn more as one word to 44222, I'll send you some of the top salary scripts. And you can just use that to start practicing it, whether or not using a negotiation or just like become aware of

Starting point is 00:40:42 it so that you can get more familiar with it. I'm going to take a look at that just because I want to like I negotiate, but I'm always curious, like if there's a way to improve how we negotiate. I'm going to take a look. Okay. Awesome. Thanks for joining me again. You're so welcome. And that was episode 165 of the Momenty podcast with Kathleen Hart. Make sure to check her out at KathleenHart.com. Hart is H-A-R-T in case you're wondering. And okay, I'll spell Kathleen to K-A-T-H-L-Y-N, Kathleen Hart. And of course, check out her podcast, The Big Leap Show on iTunes and anywhere you can find podcasts. You're going to really like it, especially if you are really into the whole

Starting point is 00:41:25 learning how to salary negotiate and just work stuff and entrepreneurship and all that good stuff. It's a really good one. So make sure to check that out. Also check out the show notes because I'll just put everything in there. So it's easy peasy for you to check out at jessicamorales.com slash 165. Now don't go away. I just have a few words to share about this episode sponsor, but got some important things to share with you after. This episode of the Momenty podcast is brought to you by canspace.ca. If you're a Canadian business owner and are looking for a reliable and affordable web hosting provider to host your website, you need to invest in local Canadian web hosting, and CanSpace is Canada's favorite provider. Super fast and affordable web hosting,

Starting point is 00:42:11 a 30-day money-back guarantee, and they'll even help migrate your site from your current provider for free. When you're ready, head on over to canspace.ca slash jessicam and enter your email address to get the coupon. Once again, visit canspace.ca slash jessicam and enter your email address to get the $10 off coupon. All right, this is kind of the last week, guys, of the book giveaway that I've been doing for the past couple weeks. If you want to enter to win one of the books that I've featured on this season of the show, well, this is your last chance. I'm going to give you a few extra days, then I'm going to close up shop. So make sure to go to jessicamorehouse.com slash a book giveaway or check out the show notes. Both will have links to or both will direct you to how to enter and all that good stuff. Super easy to do. Take your

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Starting point is 00:43:45 So jessicamorales.com slash subscribe is where you can do that. All right. Well, this is it, guys. This is the season finale. This is the last episode in season six. 165 episodes, guys. That's a lot of episodes. It is freaky. It is so freaky when I think about just having the idea in my little head to start this podcast three years ago and three years ago passed. And like, look at me now. Like what? What happened? How does life go by so quickly? How did I talk to over 150 people? Because there's some solo episodes in there. I don't know how many actual guests. I should probably count how many guests I've talked to. At least 150 people. That is some crazy stuff right there. Crazy. This is why I need to take some time off in the summer because I think I'm having a bit of a mental, I don't know. My brain feels kind of mushy. So I need to take some time, take a little break and get my stuff

Starting point is 00:44:46 together. But anyways, I want to just thank you for listening and for subscribing to the podcast, for sending, giving me all those awesome reviews, lots of amazing emails and tweets I've been getting lately. It really means a lot to me because every single time someone says, oh, I like your show or listen to it or learn this or you inspire me to do this or whatever, it makes my heart grow 10 times bigger, kind of like that Grinch in the Grinch Who Stole Christmas movie. That is what happens. You are the reason that I'm doing what I'm doing. That is it. And my job, really, my purpose, my motivation for doing everything that I do is to serve you. Without you, without knowing that I'm actually making a difference in people's lives, I mean, I just wouldn't be

Starting point is 00:45:29 doing this. It is not the money. I don't get paid that much money to do what I'm doing, guys. This is a passion for me, okay? So I just want to say a big thank you for spending time with me and listening to my show, subscribing,, all the great things that you're doing. I really, really, really, really, really appreciate it. So thanks. Thanks. Thanks. I'm going to let you go because it's summertime. So enjoy your summer. Be smart with your money. You know, empower yourself. Keep on educating yourself about personal finance pick up a couple personal finance books that you may not normally probably wouldn't have picked up and just like you know just do it just that is honestly how i got started as i just started picking up books

Starting point is 00:46:16 i'm like i would never read that and then i read it and then you're like wow okay i totally understand how that works now so uh that's my challenge for you. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I just had an idea. Okay. So if you're listening right now, I have the challenge for you. I want you, because there's two months I'm going to be off. I want you to read at least two personal finance books. And I want you to tackle at least two big major money headaches that have been on your to-do list that you haven't done. And it could be very simple. It could be like, I really need to get a better credit card because the one I get has crappy rewards. Or I really need to consolidate some of my savings accounts because I have like 50 and I don't know what's going on. Or I really need to start investing and I've been putting it off for too long. Then start investing. You know how to do it. There's a bunch of episodes on the

Starting point is 00:47:03 show talking about how you can do it. I've got a course that is on my website, jessicamorales.com slash courses. That is about if you want to do DIY investing through a discount brokerage, it tells you how to do it. So there really is no excuse. So that is my challenge for you. Okay. And I'm going to ask you if you did it when I come back in September. Okay. I want you to read at least two personal finance books and tackle these two tasks that have been on your to-do list to do with your money. Okay. Okay. So we've got a deal. You want a handshake? Okay, good. Okay, good. Okay. I'm going to stop yapping right now. And I'm going to say, enjoy your summer. I'll see you back here in September. Thanks again. Peace out. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media

Starting point is 00:48:02 Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.

More Money Podcast - 165 Get Paid Your Worth: Negotiation Tips - Kathlyn Hart, Salary Negotiation Coach

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