More Money Podcast - 187 How Your Money Is Protected at the Bank - Brad Evenson, Director of Communications at CDIC

Episode Date: March 7, 2019

Have you ever heard from someone that if a bank fails (goes bankrupt), you’ll lose all the money you had their? Because that is 100% false! You see, there’s a little thing called the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation (CDIC) and Brad Evenson, the Director of Communications and Public Affairs of CDIC joins me for this bonus podcast episode to discuss in-depth how all Canadians are protected. For full episode show notes, visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/187 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 187 of the Mo Money Podcast, another fun bonus episode on this Thursday. For this episode, I'm very excited to have Brad Evanson on the show. He's the Director of Communications and Public Affairs for the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation, otherwise known as CDIC i think uh everyone needs to listen to this episode in canada even if you live in the states a lot of this actually can apply to you because in the states you've got fdic the federal deposit insurance corporation which is very similar to uh the canadian uh version so uh basically if you don't know what cdic is if you don't actually know how your um you know cash or term deposits are protected by the banks if you don't know what CDIC is, if you don't actually know how your cash or term deposits are protected by the banks, if you don't know what would happen if the banks went bankrupt in Canada, you need to listen to this episode.

Because there's so much, even still in 2019, there's so many people that don't understand how kind of the banking system works and how we wouldn't, especially in Canada. Things are a little bit different in the States, but still there is FDIC. But in Canada specifically, which we're going to be talking about in this episode, us Canadians, our funds are protected. We will not lose all of our life savings if there is a failure in a Canadian banks. This used to happen in the past before CDIC existed. So maybe that's, I think, why there's a failure in Canadian banks. This used to happen in the past before CDIC existed. So maybe that's, I think, why there's a lot of misinformation or people thinking that we can lose all of our money and it's safe to just keep some cash under your bed. Oh my God, never do that.

Never do that. So this is a really great episode. I think you're going to love it. We're going to talk about just a lot of important things I think everyone needs to know about banking in Canada and your savings and feeling more secure and confident about keeping your money at the bank or a credit union or whatever. So yeah, let's just get to this episode with Brad Evanson from CDIC. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for joining me on the show, Brad. I'm excited to chat all things CDIC. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for joining me on the show, Brad. I'm excited to chat all things CDIC with you for this episode. Oh, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. So before we dive in, because I've got a bunch of questions,

tell me a little bit about you and your background. You're the Director of Communications and Public Affairs at CDIC. But before that, you were the Deputy Director at the Federal Department of Finance and spent nearly 20 years also working in journalism. So very interesting career you've had. It's true. I sort of combined two sort of university degrees that I had, one in economics and the other one in journalism. Not able to find a job at first in economics, I went and became a reporter. And then that experience led me into the federal government where I went to work for the Department of Finance, working on the federal budget every year. So spending six months putting out this giant document

on the economy and what Ottawa was going to spend over the coming year. So that led me to a job at CDIC. Interesting. Yeah, I have a personal experience with the federal budget. I used to work for a law firm and I don't know if you know this, but law firms take the federal budget very seriously. They're always like so anxious to be the first one out the gate to have some sort of article or kind of guide about, you know, really breaking down

what the federal budget means. And so for a couple of years, I would be like the lucky one that had to stay up or start work at midnight and stay up all night, just prepping all this content that the lawyers were writing to put onto the website. And we called the federal budget FedBud. And I'm not sure if anyone else did, but FedBud was a thing at this law firm. It was a big deal every year. Well, the moment you started that shift was when I stopped my shift. I know, you went to bed and I started. FedBud was all that I had on my mind. And probably I had written 27 versions of it by the time it was tabled in the

House of Commons. Yeah, that sounds really difficult. I feel sorry. Like that. Yeah, that sounds tough. But you know, important, important stuff. So now you're with CDIC. I guess, you know, you have a lot of kind of experience, I guess, with the journalism and working with the Department of Finance. What's your kind of role with CDIC now? So my role is Director of Communications. So that means mostly communicating with all Canadians about deposit protection in all kinds of different ways. It includes advertising because it's important that we advertise to all Canadians because after more than 20 years without a bank failure,

people don't believe that banks could actually fail and that they need any deposit protection. But we also do a lot of work in social media. We talk to journalists. We talk to people like yourself, influencers and parliamentarians and everybody trying to make sure that they're aware of, you know, what deposit protection is, because ultimately, it doesn't work to help protect depositors or the financial system if people don't know that it's there. If at the first sign of trouble, people, you know,

ran to the bank to take all their money out of the bank altogether, you know, they could do an awful lot of damage to that institution. And if it wasn't in trouble in the first place, it certainly would be by the time people took all their money out of their checking account on the same day. No, absolutely. When I, you know, before this interview, did a bunch of research about CBIC, even went so far as to find, there's some great resources on the website but i found this one um it was like an e-book basically that went i mean if anyone really wants to read it i'll include in the show notes but it's like a very detailed historical account of how like how canada was before cdic and then you know why it was um put into place and kind of what its role is it's like the most detailed thing I've ever read about CDIC,

but it's very, very fascinating. And what I think a lot of people, like you mentioned, like a lot of people don't know it exists, which is sort of a good thing because it just means like we're so, we feel safe and comfortable with our banks. But I think it's important for people to know. And just, it's interesting learning about, yeah, kind of what Canada was like and the banking system was like before CDIC. Do you want to

kind of talk a little bit about just, you know, why CDIC was put in place because of some of the things that happened before it existed? Well, Canada has a long, in fact, Canada's, the very first crisis that Canada's very first government, you know, had to confront, you know, more than, well, a hundred and how many more years ago now, was the prospect of a bank failure. And, you know, within the cabinet, you know, the finance minister wanted to bail out this bank because he didn't want it to fail. But the rest of the new government, most of them, you know, who hadn't been in their jobs, you know, even a couple of weeks yet, didn't want to do that. It was a big battle. And ultimately, our first finance minister resigned in anger because the government elected not to bail out this bank.

So bank runs and bank failures were a thing in Canada. They happened quite often. And going through the Depression years and after the Second World War, it was not uncommon for trust companies or banks to become insolvent. And beginning in the 1960s, the government began taking a very careful look at this and decided that it had to follow the lead that the United States took some years before then and said, you know, we need a deposit insurance scheme that will give Canadians some assurance that in the event the bank fails, that they're not going to lose all their money. They recognize that ordinary Canadians don't scour the stock pages and try to figure out if the bank that they're banking at is safe and if it's on good, solid ground every day. They said, look, the government is going to set up this corporation that will do that for them.

It'll keep a close watch on the banks. And most importantly, it will give Canadians assurance that they can safely save their money and not have to worry about it when they read something in the headlines. Yeah, I think we're kind of lucky. Like for me, I've always lived with, you know, banking with institutions that are members of CDIC. So we, I think probably it wasn't really, you know, it was our grandparents or great grandparents that dealt with like kind of that time that you mentioned where it was very common for banks to fail. And so we, you know, are kind of lucky in that we don't know what that experience is like, but still I find when I talk to people, there's still lots of kind of misinformation. I mean, it is not maybe common, but I have had conversations with people that do believe that if something happens to the bank, they will lose their savings.

And I feel like part of that could be just not knowing anything about CDIC, but also getting confused with Canada and other countries because other countries have different structures. Especially when we kind of look back at the Great Recession that happened in the States and all those bailouts and all that thing. I think sometimes Canadians get confused. You're like, did that happen here? Or what happened? And could I lose my savings? And that's when they kind of start getting into weird, crazy mode by, oh, I'm just going to keep some cash in my wall. Yeah. Yeah. Not a very good idea. The one thing that most Canadians don't realize is that we have had a lot of bank failures since CDIC was formed. We've had over 40 failures, you know, since 1967. And no Canadian lost a single dollar of deposits that are protected by CDIC.

So maybe, first of all, you know, because the last one happened in the 90s, it was too long ago to remember. But it amounted to a lot of money, and millions of Canadians are the beneficiaries of CDIC protection that they either got if the bank closed, they received their money by check from CDIC, or when the bank was on the brink of failure, we arranged for it to be sold to another bank, and the customers probably didn't notice anything happening at all. But it was a way that we protected them as we're meant

to do. But it's funny what you say about, you know, the events that happened, you know, in the United States during the last global crisis. And it was something that really opened our eyes here at CDIC. We had just assumed that because most Canadians are protected, that, you know, they'll know they're safe and everything will be fine. But during that crisis, there was a bank run in the United Kingdom on a bank called Northern Rock Bank. Do you want to explain quickly what a bank run is? A bank run is what happens if you've ever seen A Wonderful Life or if you've seen Mary Poppins.

You know that a rumor gets out there that there's something wrong with this bank. And in the age of social media, rumors really travel. You know, bad news gets out quick. And people say, you know what, I better get my money out of there because better safe than sorry. And I'll go to the ATM or I'll go to the bank and I'll clean up my checking account. And when everybody does that at the same time, first of all, that can make an awful dent in the bank's liquid assets or what they have on hand at any one time. But, you know, people see lineups on television, they start getting worried, they phone their friends, everybody ends up in that lineup.

And as I say, if that bank was in a hint of trouble before, it's definitely in a lot of trouble now. And just like in Mary Poppins, the bank collapses. So in the United Kingdom, they had not had a bank run before 2008 in 150 years. Wow. But there was a report on the BBC, the British Broadcasting Corporation, that said this particular bank, Northern Rock, is running out of money. They have to go to the central bank and get some more money. They're in a bit of trouble. That was enough to trigger a crisis. And within 24 hours, that bank was teetering on the brink of failure because thousands of people lined up in the streets and took and the public inquiries into the situation that was discovered was not that they didn't have deposit protection in the UK because they had a form of

deposit protection, but that nobody knew what it was. And people would say, well, how can I trust what I don't know about? So when we looked at our own operations here in Canada, we thought we need to make sure that not only the people are protected, but they know about it or else deposit protection isn't going to work for anybody. Absolutely. And so just to kind of ensure in a very simple way, CDIC works in that it is basically insurance that these banks have to pay into and are members of. And it's the kind of banking customers that are protected by it. Is that kind of how it works?

Right. So banks, we have 82 member banks. People are familiar with the big six banks like the Bank of Montreal and RBC, but there are many others. And they pay to be members of CDIC. In fact, you can't have a banking license in Canada unless you're a member of CDIC. That's part of being in the business. And they pay premiums to us so that in the event one of them should fail, we would ensure that the depositors get all their money back. Or in many cases,

that the depositors might not even notice that. Or in many cases, that the depositors might not even notice that their bank had been purchased by another bank. So because we would help out with that. So for depositors, it's free, it's automatic, you don't have to sign up as long as you bank with a CDIC member. And you can tell that it's a member by that big purple logo on the front door, or if you go on the bank's website, you'll see our purple logo with a lock, or on their app, and it's even inside your banking pages. You know that that means that your money is protected. So you mentioned that in order to basically be a bank in Canada, you have to be a member of CDIC. Are there any kind of financial institutions in the country

that are not members that people should know about? There are other financial institutions where you can save your money in Canada, for example, credit unions. And that's not to say that your money is not protected there. Each province has its own deposit protection scheme. And so deposits in credit unions are protected, but individually by each separate province, whereas CDIC is a national scheme. So if you're a bank that wants to operate in more than one province, you have to be a member of CDIC. Okay.

So is there basically no way that you could, you know, deposit cash at some sort of financial institution in the country and not be protected by either the province or CDIC? That's right. For a credit union or a bank or a trust company, one way or another, you are protected by some level of government. Okay. Well, that should be comforting to people, I think. But I think the one thing that, you know, that is very simple, I think, to understand at this point. But I think that the complicated part is when we get into kind of the minutia of how it actually works. Because, you know, on the CDIC website, there's a lot of different categories. So do we want to talk a little bit about how much

you're actually protected? I think lots of people could probably tell you, oh, I know I'm protected for, I think, $100,000 or something like that. But that's kind of all they know. But there's a lot of different categories, and it's per institution. Do you want to kind of touch on some of the most important things there? The way I think of it is that CDIC protects your savings kind of wherever you're at in life. I'll just use this as an example. is that CDIC protects your savings kind of wherever you're at in life. I'll just use this as an example.

Let's say you start out, you get your first bank account. It's in your own name. That money that is in that one account is protected up to $100,000. Let's say you get married or you have a partner. You decide to set up a joint bank account, the money in that account is also protected up to $100,000. So you had the stuff in your own account that was 100. This account, this joint account is protected up to 100, so 50 each. And then you maybe you want to set up a TFSA because you want to start saving for, you know, a fancy vacation or something

like that. If the money in your TFSA is in a deposit, that deposit is protected up to $100,000. If you want to set up an RESP for your child, that's a trust account. And so trust accounts that have deposits in them are protected up to $100,000. RRSPs, if you are saving for your retirement, there's $100,000 there. So at each phase of your life that you might be thinking about some new reason why you're saving, right through and past retirement, there's a CDIC category for you. So I kind of think of it as, instead of saying you have $100,000 in coverage, think of it as seven different glasses and you can put $100,000 in each one and it's fully protected. And if you're

lucky enough- And you're talking with the same institution, right? In the same institution. So if you're lucky enough to have all that money and you still have more that you need to protect, remember that we have 82 members. So you can spread it out over any one of those. Also, I feel like if you have $700,000 in cash, do something with it. It's an awful lot of cash. It's a good position to be in. Yeah. And so speaking a little bit about cash, that's another thing I think, because you mentioned RESPs and RRSPs and TFSAs. You're just talking about your cash or your kind of term deposits like a GIC, those are protected.

But if you're putting mutual funds or ETFs into those accounts, those aren't covered. That's right. So we only protect deposits. So the deposits that you would put into those, we call them categories. If you put a mutual fund into your RESP or your RRSP, that is not protected by CDIC. It's not to say it might not be protected by some other agency if it were to fail, because some of them are mutual funds, for example. But if the value of it goes down, well, that's an investment in the stock market. And sometimes they go up and sometimes they go down. Yeah, no, I think that's also another thing that just, Dean, to be clarified, because I talk to a lot of people and sometimes that's what they're

thinking. It's like, oh, so if I lose money on my investments, I'm protected. It's like, well, no, that's not, no, then we'd all like make claims all the time. We'd be like, I lost money. You know, it's a trade-off sometimes that people have to think about. You know, you may be able to make more money on investments. You know, there's a big upside, but that people have to think about. You may be able to make more money on investments. There's a big upside, but there's also a big downside. The reason why some people, particularly older Canadians, who are saving for retirement and they don't want to lose anything. They may be willing to live with smaller gains,

but they certainly don't want to lose anything. That's a time in life when they start thinking about converting investments that they have into GICs, term deposits with the bank, because then at least they know what they're going to get and that they're not going to lose any of it. Absolutely. And I know going back to the categories, I like how you mentioned it's like there's seven different glasses.

And you said also that's per institution. So, I mean, if you have a problem with you have so much cash and you want to make sure it's all protected, then definitely spread it over. A nice problem to have. But I know there is, and I'll link to it in the show notes, but I know there is an area in your website that you can, I think, input some of your details about your banks and how much money you have in those accounts. It'll tell you whether all of that or a part of that is protected, which I found very useful. Yeah, it's a very handy tool. It's a deposit insurance estimator. It's built to be simple. You don't have to know very much. You don't have to know your finances in detail. You just need to know how much you bank or where you bank, how much you've got approximately. It won't ask you like to the dollar. You don't have to put that in. It'll ask you if it's, you bank, how much you've got approximately. It won't ask you to the dollar. You don't have to

put that in. It'll ask you if it's, is it a savings account, checking account? What is it? And then it'll give you a cue for what category it might be. And that's an area where you might not think of it because that's kind of more of a CDIC thing than an ordinary Canadian thing. They don't think, hmm, I've invested my money in a joint account or something like that. But the categories are there. So you can look at it. And it's not too hard to figure out that, well, this is a joint account with my spouse. Or yes, I put this in an RRSP. And then it'll calculate it for you. And if you use it once, you'll understand deposit protection. It's a learning tool as well as a calculator. Absolutely.

You mentioned that there hasn't been a bank failure in Canada since the 90s. So that's quite a long time. Why do you think that is? Do you think there's just more confidence in the banking system amongst Canadians? Or, I don't know, banks have gotten smarter? Well, Canadians are pretty conservative and the Canadian banking sector is also pretty conservative. But it's also true that after some of the bank failures in the 1990s, the government got a little bit more serious about supervising

banks. So in other words, not telling them what they could do necessarily, but paying attention to what they were doing and making sure that they weren't taking unnecessary risks. And that system of supervision has been very effective. That's one of our partner agencies, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, or OSFI for short. And they, you know, they literally send supervisors into the banks and who work in the bank or spend a significant amount of time in each of our banks,

you know, sitting with them and just making sure that we understand what the bank is up to. And that all of that information that they collect is confidential, but it allows them to decide whether or not they need to ask the bank to make some changes and to sort of keep tabs on it. And CDIC also keeps tabs on its member institutions and the kinds of risks they take and the financial position they're in. Because if you think about it, we have a lot of money at stake. If one of them were to fail, we'd have to pay all the depositors their money back. So that's an awful lot. So we take steps to make sure that the banks don't take undue risks or that sort of thing. So there's an awful lot of regulatory agencies here in Ottawa that are paying attention to them.

And I think that may be part of the reason why that we haven't seen as many failures. Yeah, no, definitely. I think that's important. I think most people have no idea that that's what goes on. You always kind of hope that that's what's going on. You're like, who's actually paying attention to these banks?

Are they just kind of doing whatever they want or, you know, is people paying attention? Yeah, so I think that's what's going on. You're like, who's actually paying attention to these banks? Are they just kind of doing whatever they want or, you know, is people paying attention? Yeah, so I think that's important to know. It's, yeah, it's, in some ways, if you think about it, as I do, you think about fire insurance, you know, you, if you have fire insurance, you know, then you then maybe you feel safe. But if the firemen are just sitting around the firehouse, the firefighters rather, just playing cards and waiting for the alarm to ring so that the fire is well and truly burning by the time they get there, well, maybe you'll get your money back. Maybe you'll get a new house someday. But it's not going to be a great situation whereas if the firefighters were patrolling

the streets and the first time a smoke alarm goes off because there's a pot on the stove and they come in and they take care of it right away well then that's that's a better situation because you know perhaps the bank didn't fail or perhaps you know we arranged the sale of that bank to another one to protect the depositors. So you don't send them a check in the mail, but I think that they're happier in the end if their banking isn't affected at all. Absolutely. And there hasn't been a failure since the 90s. So I think a lot of us have never experienced that or never seen that happen. But if something like that does happen in the future, which you never know, is there ever a chance that CDIC won't be able to, you know, afford it? You know, I,

this could happen, but what is the likelihood of basically, you know, even though CDIC is here to protect Canadians, what if something happens like several bank failures several big bank failures happen all at the same time is there a likelihood of you know not actually having enough funds and the reserves well that it's important to sort of distinguish between uh how we would handle certain kinds of failures for example if a small bank were to fail you know it might close and and we would reimburse all the depositors and then we would pursue our losses or we would, you know, go to court to get our money back from the estate of that small bank. But if we're talking about a very large bank, those banks have to keep extra money as a buffer against failure. So if a very large bank were to get into trouble, the first thing that would happen is the shareholders would lose all their money,

because if you think of a business, the owners are the shareholders. So they're the ones who should lose their money first, not the depositors. But those large banks are also required to keep very large blocks of funds in place in the form of bonds that are called bail-in bonds. And if a bank were to get into very serious trouble, these funds would be bailed in. And in other words, they would become part of the bank's funding. And so it's a huge extra buffer that would prevent the bank from going out of business or becoming insolvent. But CDIC would then be in charge of that institution, having taken control of it. fix the problems that it had that led to its failure, and then sell it back to the private sector. And depositors would not be affected. So their funds would not be touched and their

debit cards would continue to work to buy purchases, their financial services would not be affected. So that's called resolution, which is a little bit different way of making sure that depositors are protected. So we have a whole bunch of tools that we can use to make sure that we protect depositors. And they work in different ways, but it kind of depends on the size of the bank and what its circumstances are. Absolutely. And I feel like too, one thing I do hear when I am talking to others about, you know, all the different types of banks and credit unions, some people do have more confidence in the bigger banks because they feel like, well, they're bigger, they have more money. So I feel like that's less likely to happen, whereas the smaller ones that could happen. But

I think you've kind of clarified that, you know, whether your bank is somewhere small or big, there's always some form of protection. So that shouldn't be the main reason you decide to bank with somebody. If you look back at the last financial crisis, some of the largest banks in the world approached failure or did fail. And that was a big reason why we've done an awful lot of policy development here. And for example, the bail-in bonds that I described that are now in place, that was all part of the aftermath of the financial crisis. Even though Canada didn't have failures here,

we weren't blind to some of the shortcomings that we have and that we're seeing elsewhere in the world. And we worked with other resolution authorities, we call them, or other depositors around the world to develop, you know, tools that would work, you know, in circumstances like that in the future. Great. That's great. And yeah, if anyone's listening, not from Canada, do some research to make sure your country has some sort of security. I know in the States there is FDIC, and I'm sure other countries, like you mentioned, have other kind of forms of security.

But it's just good to do your research so you can have these answers instead of just believe whoever's on the street telling you, oh, it's always good to have a bit of cash at home. It's like, no, not necessary in this day and age, I think. Probably not necessary in this day and age, I think. Probably not necessary in this day and age, especially when it's very easy to use, you know, debit cards and phones. There's all kinds of ways now to pay that don't involve cash because cash in your pocket doesn't earn interest. Exactly. And I think that's a great place to leave it.

Thank you so much, Brad, for joining me and sharing all your knowledge about CDIC. I really highly recommend everyone check out the website. There's some really great and easy to read and easy to navigate resources. So thank you again for joining me on the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

I really enjoyed it. And that was episode 187 of the Momenty Podcast with Brad Evanson from CDIC. Make sure to, if you want to learn more and like not just learn more about CDIC, but actually check out that calculator we talked about. Or if you want to get real nerdy, check out that ebook that I was talking about that I read all about just kind of the history of banking and bank failures and all that kind of stuff. It can all be found on cdic.ca. But of course, I will link to all the things that I mentioned

in my show notes for this episode. So that could be found at jessicmorehouse.com slash 187. Other exciting things that I want to mention in case you missed yesterday's episode, which I feel like you should check out. But, um, so a couple things. Um, coming up very soon, I'm going to be hosting a Twitter chat for Fraud Prevention Month with FISCO,'s like, honestly, surprisingly, one of my top downloaded episodes was the one I did episode 180. It was my last episode of season seven. It was the live recording of my Millennial Money Meetup back in the fall. And it was sponsored by Fisco. And we talked all about pensions and investing and retirement planning. So you're definitely going to want to check that out if you haven't. But anyways, I'm teaming up with them again to do this Twitter party to kind of promote and discuss how to protect yourself from mortgage fraud because it's actually a really big problem here in Canada and a lot of fraud is going on.

And so we're going to kind of chat about it. And of course, the best part, I'm going to give away prizes at the end. I'm going to be giving away some Amazon gift cards. So you can do whatever the heck you want with that, you know, Amazon gift card money. Hopefully do something responsible and buy some like personal finance books or something, but you know, do whatever you want. So anyways, you can find more information in the show notes or go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash twitter party and find more information there. Another exciting thing I'm going to be doing is I haven't done a webinar in a while, so I thought it was high time I do one. And this one is going to be focused on investing because as you know, I have an online investing course called Investing Foundations for Canadians

that really goes through all the important things you need to know to become confident about investing and deciding what to do. It really breaks down all those things that you think are complicated or sound like jargon. And I just really break it down so anyone can understand what the hell an ETF is or what rebalancing a portfolio is or what a portfolio is. I can go on and on. I had to make a whole course on it because there's so much stuff, but it's very chunkified because I didn't want it to seem like a big dry beast because that's no fun. So anyways, I'm going to be doing a webinar on the topic of just investing, but more specifically, I've been kind of doing some crowdsourcing to find out what

are some of the biggest questions you have about investing. And I'm going to be answering them in this webinar. So actually, if you have some questions about investing and you want to make sure I address them, make sure to email me, Jessica at JessicaMorehouse.com or at me on Twitter or Instagram. Find me wherever on social, message me and let me know what your questions are. Or again, during the webinar at the end, we're going to do a live Q&A, so you can ask me there. Anyway, so go to jessicamorehouse.com slash webinar to sign up. It's all going down March 20th at 7 p.m. Eastern time, and it'll be a lot of fun. So I hope to see you there. All right, that's enough talking because, you know, let's just, let's get on with our lives. So thanks for listening to me in your ear. Once again,

I'll see you back here next Wednesday with a fresh new episode of Nemo Money Podcast. Thanks so much. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.