More Money Podcast - 190 The Latte Factor (What It Really Means) - John David Mann, Best-Selling Author of The Go-Giver, The Red Circle & The Latte Factor

Episode Date: March 27, 2019

This is by far one of my favourite interviews on the podcast…ever! For this episode, I chat with John David Mann, and award-winning author whose books have sold more than 3 million copies, including titles such as The Go-Giver with Bob Burg and the New York Times bestseller The Red Circlewith Brandon Webb. For his latest book The Latte Factor, which he co-authored with best-selling author and OG personal finance expert David Bach, they discuss the term that Bach coined several years ago in his popular book The Automatic Millionaire. You see, even though pretty much everyone has heard of “the latte factor,” most people don’t really know what it means. Surprisingly, it doesn’t mean you should ditch your morning coffee to save money. It’s actually bigger than that. It’s less about coffee and more about how we all need to spend our money more in line with our values, and how little bits of money over-time can have a major impact on our financial futures. What I loved most about this book is that it’s a very short read (you can read it in a day), and it’s not a typical how-to book and written in a narrative style. Similar to how David Chilton’s structured The Wealthy Barber, this book has central characters we follow along so we can learn the same lesson they’re learning and can identify with their struggles too. I 100% could relate to the central character, a 20-something city-living millennial who feels like no matter how much they earn, they still never have enough. Who hasn’t felt like that at some point in their life? But, she learns that it’s not necessarily how much you earn that’s the problem. It’s what you do with what you earn now that is most important. And yes I know, earning more can sometimes be a solution, but from working with so many clients now, I can tell you that cash flow usually isn’t the problem. The problem is not understanding what they are spending their money on. The problem is not having clear financial goals to work towards. The problem is not having the financial literacy necessary to make solid and confident financial decisions moving forward. The book isn’t out quite yet (it comes out May 7), but you can pre-order now and you enter to win a free copy by visit the show notes. For full show notes, visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/190 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 190 of the Momenty Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Morales. Thanks for joining me for another episode. This one's going to be a good one. I'm going to be talking to John David Mann. He's an award-winning author. I mean, it's a crazy bio. He has co-authored books that have sold more than 3 million copies, including bestselling classic, The Go-Giver with Bob Berg and the New York Times bestselling memoir The Red Circle with former Navy SEAL Brandon Webb. Also crazy, he's an award-winning composer and cellist, and he's an entrepreneur and author. He has a book called Take the Lead with former White House staffer Betsy Myers,

which was named by Tom Peters in the Washington Post, the best leadership book of 2011. He knows what he's talking about. And he is joining forces with one of my favorite authors of all time, David Bach, from The Automatic Millionaire and a bunch of other amazing books. And they are coming out with a book called The Latte Factor. Because as you know, David Bach, he coined that term, The Latte Factor, way back when. And people have been saying it and using it all the time. Oh my gosh. Honestly, I feel like when I talk to personal finance people, they always talk about The Latte Factor like every freaking day. So because it is like basically common, it's just part of our vocabulary now in the personal finance sphere. David Bach and John David Mann are co-authoring a book called The Latte Factor out May 7th, but you can pre-order now. And we're going to be talking about what exactly is in that book. So you can grab a copy and you will want to grab a copy. I read it. I loved it. A very easy read. And it's also amazingly not just like a how-to book. It's a narrative. It's like a story. You can read it and just like absorb it and see yourself in it. I totally related to the main character. It's a great read. So we're going to talk about all that good stuff in this episode. But before I get to that interview, here's just a few words about this episode's sponsor.

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Thank you, John, for taking the time to chat with me on the Mo Money Podcast. I'm excited to dive in. Totally my pleasure. I'm thrilled to be here. Yeah. So before we dive in, you have been around for a while and have quite the resume. It's kind of crazy. But for people who are just learning about you for the first time, want to give me a little bit of a background. You have a very diverse career, if I can say that. And I want to know how the hell you ended up here. Wherever here may be. How the hell did this happen? What is going on? I'm really not ADD, honestly, I'm not. But then again,

yeah, my career looks a little bit like a game of hopscotch. I've kind of jumped around, and it wasn't really my intention. I never really quite knew what I set out to be. I just kept getting interested in things. So I started out in classical music. My dad was a choral conductor and a musicologist. And I performed. I was a composer. I played cello. That's what kind of was my career to start. And then I got interested in nutrition and health. And I got interested in education. I started a high school. Actually, I dropped out of high school and started an alternative high school with a group of friends. Oh, wow.

Yeah, and that was kind of my first entrepreneurial venture, I guess. And I didn't know that's what it was called at the time. But that's when I kind of learned the limitlessness of the possibilities to what you can do if you are oblivious to the limitations that are supposed to be there. That was a long sentence. So from there, I went and I got involved in nutrition and health, as I say, and then I got involved through that in writing. And I kind of went into sales and spent about a decade very involved in sales and marketing. And then ended up being the guy that helped make other people's written stuff better. I kept editing articles and editing interviews and eventually was editing full-time and then co-writing and co-authoring. And that's when I fell into this book thing. And I've written,

I should say co-authored upwards of two dozen books at this point. So that's what I do. And that's how we got here. Yeah. Wow. That's a lot of books, but I guess you love what you do. Now you have a lot of books out there. Are they all kind of different topics or? Yeah, there are a couple of main themes.

The books that I'm best known for are the business parables or the personal development parables. They kind of cross over, like the book we'll be talking about today, The Latte Factor. But 10 years ago, 11 years ago, I wrote a book with my buddy Bob Berg called The Go-Giver. And that kind of caught on. It struck a chord. And it came out right at the foot of the financial crash in 2008. And it took off and became very well known. It's sold all over the world, just won awards and blah, blah. And that kind of made my name and got my foot in the door of publishing in New York.

And there are some sequels to that, The Go-Giver Leader, The Go-Giver Influencer. And then I've also written a whole bunch of military books with a former Navy SEAL, who's a friend of mine, his memoir and a number of other memoirs of his friends, and even some, some business and entrepreneurial books with him since he's become a businessman since leaving the service. Um, and, and then a bunch of memoirs of other people's fascinating stories. You know, they have people who've lived fascinating story, but really can't write it. So I do the writing part. And it's kind of like being an actor

and taking on somebody else's persona and playing them through, you know, 300 pages. Oh, that's an interesting way to say it. Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, how, so I don't know kind of what your relationship with David Bach was before, or how like into the personal finance world you have been before. It sounds like you were, you know, probably always pretty interested in it. But I mean, David Bach, he was one of the first authors that I ever read.

I started getting interested in this about a decade ago. When I read The Latte Factor, the new book that you co-authored, it felt to me kind of like a bunch of his different books put into kind of a narrative. And it sounded like it kind of felt like it was like put together in order to be that new book for this new kind of generation. Is that kind of what the goal was? Yeah. Well, it has a funny genesis, actually, interesting genesis for me. So The Go-Giver was the first book of mine. It wasn't my very first book, but it was the first book that really caught notice. And it came out, again, as I said, in the very beginning of 2008, so a little before the crash. And I had interviewed David for a business magazine I wrote for a year or two

earlier, and I loved the interview. And that's where I met a lot of people that I ended up writing with. Everyone from Stephen Covey to Colleen Barrett of Southwest Airlines and all kinds of fascinating people. I interviewed David. And I loved what I was taken by. I got to tell you, Jessica, it wasn't just the financial principles, which are so beautifully simple. And we'll come back to the simple theme and so actionable, so practical and so accessible. But I also just loved kind of his larger message, which was, he told me in that interview, he said, you know, I believe that everyone was put here on this earth to do something, to do something unique, something that nobody else can do. And that most of us aren't doing it because we spend our lives leasing and loaning our lives. And my dream, my mission, my goal is to help people buy back their own lives so they can do

what they were put here to do and live fulfilled and happy lives. And I was like, dude, this guy isn't just a money guy. He is a money guy, but he's also a life guy. Um, and I, I just loved his, his approach. So, uh, I approached a lot of people for endorsements for the go-giver back in 2007, David's endorsement of the book was so beautiful that we ended up on the cover. You won't find it there today because, uh, we put a new, uh, quote from Adam Grant when we did a new edition in 2015. But David's quote was just gorgeous. And he said, not since who moved my cheese have I read a parable as much as I like for this. Read this book. It'll touch your soul and move your heart. I laughed and I cried. Something like that. It was lovely. So he approached me a few months

after the book came out and said, hey, I'd like to do this parable. I got this idea. And his idea was very much in line with what I have believed for a decade now, which was that with a thick nonfiction book with lots of detail in it, you can reach a certain audience who are interested in that topic. But if you want to reach 100 million people, if you want to reach a lot of people, if you want your message to really get out there and touch the lives that it ought to be touching, a lot of people don't read big books. A lot of people don't read period. And this isn't just a social media thing. A lot of people didn't read books 80 years ago. A lot of people don't read. I cannot tell you how many people have said to me in the last 10 years, I maybe read a book a year, maybe not even that. I could have read like two books since high school, since college. But I read your book

over a weekend. It's The Go-Giver. And I love that. So David said, I want to reach a bigger audience, a different audience, a new audience with my ideas, but in the form of a parable like the Go-Giver. Do you want to do that with me? And I said, God, are you kidding? Of course. So we started talking about it, and I had this idea for a story about a young woman. Her name wasn't Zoe Daniels then, but I had this basic idea for a young woman and it involved a piece of art that she fell in love with and that she wanted, but it wasn't just about this art that she wanted that she couldn't afford. There was something deeper and bigger about her life that she wanted and she thought that she couldn't afford and it seemed inaccessible. And that kind of yearning that is behind all real

stories. Somebody wants something deeply. We started writing it and then the crash happened. And then David got busy writing some other books and then one thing and the other and blah, blah, and 10 years went by. And he came back. He had an evening he spent with Paolo Coelho, the author of The Alchemist, which is on just about everybody's one of my favorite books list. Beautiful parable. And he got inspired by Coelho to go back and write this book. So he approached me and said, hey, remember that idea 10 years ago? You still want to do that? It's like, oh, God, yes. I've been thinking about this for 10 years. So we finally got to write it.

And we're both thrilled. We've had a blast doing it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I whipped through it so fast because I try my best to read the books of the authors I have on my show. But I get a lot of freaking books. And so I'm like, no, I like, but big fan of David Bogg. And I love the, the concept of the latte factor has always stuck with me since I first learned about it in my early twenties. Like, Oh, I want to see what's new or what's, what's different about this book that, you know, it's called the latte factor.

And I read it so quickly. And I think a big reason is because it is a narrative you could just dive in and just kind of put yourself. I mean, obviously, I totally related to the Zoe character because I'm like, yes, that was me. I mean, I live in a city. I definitely lived her life when I was in my 20s. So it's very relatable. Or there's a lot of people I talk to now, cause I'm not so much as Zoe anymore, but there's people that I'm, I know that are just like her. And so I'm like, this is very easy to digest and it's very reminiscent of, you know, the

first financial book I read, which is, you know, I think, I think it's still like the most popular financial book in Canada, the wealthy barber, which is a narrative. And just, it's different than there's so, just like you said, there's so many financial books out there. It gets overwhelming. Number one, number two, I think you have to be very, uh, on a kind of different level to have the motivation to go to the bookstore and pick up a, you know, nonfiction book about how to do money. And so it's, most people don't kind of read that stuff unless it's like one of these books that you know you get recommended by a friend you're like it's so easy to read you're gonna find yourself in this book you can read it

in an afternoon and you're good and that's why the wealthy barber has been so successful everyone talks about it it's very easy to read and so this was actually a nice pleasant surprise because it talks about the most important things i think you need to know especially when you're younger and just kind of learning what are some of the key things I need to know to kind of better my financial situation. But it's, it is like accessible for anybody. Like you can, you can relate to Zoe or have a very different life, but the key kind of findings in the book, like pay yourself first, make it automatic, live rich now are very easy to understand. And they're like actionable to anyone's situation in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, and I'm, I'm a, not a woman and B not young. And even though I wrote the book,

I was like, I totally relate to this. And there, there are baby boomers, um, who, to whom, honestly, we did write the book for, for, for younger people, but it doesn't have to be, it's just the principles are universal. They're applicable to anybody. And there's so many good ideas. There's so many good ideas out there that work if you do them, but you won't do them. I mean, a lot of them because they're too complicated or they're too inaccessible or they're too forbidding or they're too imposing or intimidating. We wanted to make this something that people could read, put down, and that day put into practice.

Exactly. And these are very, like, again, easy, easy concepts, but they work. Cause again, like when I read the automatic millionaire, I'm like, Oh, what a concept making things automatic. No one's ever told me that no one's ever explained it like that. And that was, I feel like probably about 10 years ago that I set up those systems and yeah, they work because I'm way richer than I ever expected to be at this age. And it's because I didn't do anything special. I just set up some like, you know, automatic transfers and stuff through my bank and I'm investing and you forget that you're even

investing. And then you're like, Oh wow, there's a pile of money there. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It works. And just like you, you mentioned too, I think the, the big kind of theme of the book, which I really appreciate is it is simple. And the thing that I keep on coming across, especially when it comes more specifically to investing, but this idea that it has to be complex. And if it's simple, maybe you're doing it wrong. And this is something that irritates the crap out of me because I've done so much research. I've been studying this topic of like money management for, you know, eight years now, I would say. And I keep on coming across the same concept. So I'm like, okay, I think it is actually that simple. So

why are people making it so freaking complicated? What's your opinion on that? I would love to know. I mean, isn't it fascinating when you look at someone like Warren Buffett, his principles are, you know, are they incredibly complex? God, no, the opposite. I mean, they're just so dirt simple, but it's, you know, it's like one of my favorite stories is, you know, that five frogs sat on a leap head. One decided to jump off. How many are left? Well, the answer is there's still five because the one only decided to jump off. He hasn't actually done it yet. And that's the thing. It's like, there are lots of great ideas out there, but will you do them? And the beauty of David's concepts for me is that

people do them. I mean, he's had literally thousands and thousands and thousands of people since he started 20 years ago with the automatic millionaire and smart women finished rich, come back to him and say, just like you said, Jessica, it's like, oh my God, I did this 10 years ago and here's what's happened. I've got the results. I do think that there's, I mean, I appreciate complexity. My God, I grew up in the world of classical music where there's great complexity, but there's nothing as profound as simplicity. That's why, whether it's storytelling or music or finance, you find these simple principles and they're so universal that they last and they last and they last. They work. And I feel like, especially with finance, I'm glad it's simple because it does seem so complex,

but it shouldn't be because I've talked to so many guests and we always kind of come back to this idea that, you know, we earn money, we spend money. Why on earth does the whole management of money have to be like, oh, sorry, you need like a special degree to manage it properly. Yes. Or the stock market. I mean, the stock market, what could be simpler than the idea that when, you know, when, when your favorite stocks start plunging, what does everybody do? They go, oh my God, and they sell. Wait, that's the opposite. It's like the principle is so simple. Buy when it's low, sell when it's high. It's so simple, but people don't do it. But the thing about that one is that it's people's emotions get in the way. Yeah. And that's the whole thing about, you know, budgets and saving and everything else. It's the ideas are simple. Money is simple.

Math is simple, but people are complicated. So finding a way to make money work when people are involved like us, that's, I think the, the, that's the magic of it. That's the skill of it. That's the beauty of it. Yeah. And I think the other component too, is not just the emotions, but there's, there's always so many exceptions or other things to consider. Like recently I shared a tweet that had something, you know, pointing to an article about, um, how to save for retirement and use RRSPs. And someone tweeted back, Oh, I thought you weren't supposed to invest using an RRSP unless you made $93,000 a year. I'm like, that is a very specific rule of thumb. And I'm like, well, you can, you know, rule the rules of thumb are great, but you can't just be like, I'm not going to,

you know, invest for my retirement in this specific retirement account until I make $93,000 a year. I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. But it's like, you really need to understand what, what the tool is and how to properly use it. But, and I think that's, that is like kind of the key thing. People are trying really hard to do the right thing, but there's so many different people pointing them in different directions. It gets, it gets kind of, you know, and then that's when they get that, you know, uh, analysis paralysis was people say, and they don't do anything. They don't, you know, they, they talk about, Oh they don't do anything. They talk about, oh, I thought RSPs are the great vehicle, or I heard you were not supposed to use those, and then they just don't do anything anyway. And that's the tricky thing. It's like,

yes, simplicity is so key, but simplicity doesn't mean simplistic. It's like, take one single piece of wisdom or directive and apply just that. No, I'm saying you have to have context. You have to have balance. You have to have at least several principles going on that balance each other because there is such a thing as simplistic. Yes, rule of thumb, but you have four more fingers. So use those two. Yeah.

And also I think having – like continuing to educate yourself because there's never just a moment where you're like, well, I know it all. It's like, well, things change. My goodness, do they ever change, especially in the financial world? But also having the kind of confidence in yourself that you may do something a little bit differently. Like going back to that example, this person thought this is the right way to do it. I'm like, well, I, for example, know what you're talking about. I kind of know, understand you're talking about tax implications and all that stuff. But for me, I don't make that much, but I do use an RRSP and having the confidence to basically not do exactly what you think everyone else is doing, if that makes sense. Like it's, it's very tricky when you're trying to learn what's the right way to do it and then just do whatever you think is right anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's something interesting you said there is it's, and it's, I think it goes to it's simple. Doesn't, isn't necessarily the same thing as, as easy or as dirt simple. That's very confusing what I said, but what I mean is sometimes you have a simple principle, but you need to do a lot of research. You need to do a lot of reading, not because it's complex or not because you need to master a complicated subject, but because to do anything well, to do anything with great results, it really pays to learn a lot about it.

I mean, whether it's whatever it may be, whether it's writing or whether it's investing or whether it's finance. I mean, one of the simple principles of investing is to know the company, right? Know the principles of the company, know the state of the company. Well, that takes research. You don't just go to the company's website and say, oh, company looks pretty cool. So there's work involved. And sometimes implementing a simple thing, setting up a savings account or setting up an automatic payment system, that's simple. That's easy. But sometimes doing simple things requires significant commitment and time and effort because you really do need to have an understanding yourself. You need to know your

topic, not like a PhD, but like an educated layman at least. And I think it can't be push button in terms of your own knowledge. It does pay to educate yourself. Yeah. And yeah, like you said too, these things take time sometimes. And I think people, it's hard to kind of balance the be patient, but also know when to maybe pivot. And people kind of don't know when is the time to like, maybe this isn't working. Like some people will invest for a year and be like, oh, it's, you know, my investments are down. Maybe this isn't the right investment. Maybe I should pivot. It's like, maybe, but it's also only been a year. Like these things do kind of take time, but you got to understand, but it's like, you'll, I think some of those fears will go away once you do continue to educate yourself and understand what those risks

are and understand why these things take time or how much time you should take to see if it works. Yes. And that example you just gave, I mean, one of the factors there obviously is the noise out there because you have, you know, like you look at the noise of Bitcoin is going up and down, has been down for months, right? Yeah. So you go online and read what they've been saying about it and you get a chorus of voices saying it's over. And then a whole chorus of voices saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. It just hasn't been started yet. And so people, you have to make a commitment to

yourself that you're not going to be swayed by the noise. You can go, you have to sort through the noise and you have to make a decision, which I don't know exactly how you do this. You have to make a decision who you're going to trust. And I don't know what the rule of thumb is, honestly, Jessica, about who you're going to trust. It's intuition, maybe. It's your feeling. You have to do enough reading, enough poking around to decide, you know what? I'm going to listen to this person, but I'm going to trust this one just because it's my decision to trust them. I just feel pretty right about that.

Otherwise, you can be like a piece of straw in a hurricane just being blown all over the place. Exactly. It really, like, I feel like most financial decisions, whether it's about investing or just like switching banks really has to do with not only the research, but just, yeah, trusting yourself and yeah, kind of getting rid of that noise because people have opinions, probably the strongest opinions I feel like in finance. And for me, as you know, when I was, you know, starting to learn about this in my twenties, all that noise and all these opinions scared the crap out of me and made me not choose to do lots of things. Cause I didn't want to, I didn't want people to say, oh, you're doing it wrong or, or me actually make a mistake. Cause I listened to the wrong person. It's like, you do

have to trust yourself and then trust your gut to trust other people or the right people giving the, you know, whatever financial literacy that they're giving. Yeah. Yeah. It's this funny thing of balancing, you know, one of the things that makes, I think, living as an adult, such a challenge is that you have to be able to embrace a certain amount of paradox and use your common sense, which in this case is, you know, for me, I'm a writer and I spend a lot of time thinking about writing because writing is difficult or it can be difficult. And I have two principles of writing. One is don't listen to anyone but yourself.

And the other is listen to everybody. And you have to do both. I know. At the same time. I know. I know. It's just – one thing that I thought was really interesting and I really appreciated while reading the book was I feel like since this term, the latte factor has been circulated. So many people have different interpretations of what that means. And for the longest time, I felt like there was a very long

period of time where lots of the financial experts in like, I guess the early 2000s, mid 2000s, were preaching that the latte factor means stop spending money on stuff that isn't essential. Live frugally. You're being selfish, blah, blah, blah. And so I definitely did that and lived super frugally in my 20s because I thought that's what that meant. But it seemed like actually in the book, it really kind of reiterates the idea that it's not about getting rid of your latte. It's about being more aware of what you're spending your money on and really understanding what your values are and your goals are, which I really appreciate because that's something I've been preaching for the past

while because I can't stand this idea of like, stop drinking your daily coffee. It's like, what if it brings you so much joy and you can make it work and you can't afford it, you know? Yeah. It's like, this is very well timed with the whole Marie Kondo movement, right? It's like, what brings you joy? I know. It's true though, man. She knows some stuff. I fold like her in everything now. I don't know why, but I actually do. It does bring me joy, this new folding system. And that's what this is. You're so right. It's like folding money, right? Because it's about, first of all, knowing what's important to you. And sometimes people get intimidated by the word values and sometimes people get intimidated by the word goals.

But how about this? What's important to you? What brings you joy? I thought it was a brilliant way of saying this. And as you say, it's knowing where your money is going and making sure it's going where you want it to go. It's not about you can't have coffee. It's not about you can't have nice clothes. It's not about you can't have coffee. It's not about you can't have nice

clothes. It's not about you can't have anything. You can have anything if you can make the money to buy it. It's about being intentional and being congruent with your spending and what matters to you. Exactly. And believe me, when I work with financial counseling clients one-on-one, most of the time, we start off with looking at a month's spending or two months spending and we do a deep dive and I'm like, okay, we've categorized everything. Does this make you feel good? Are you happy with what this looks like? And most of the time they're like, no, this isn't what I wanted to spend my money on. And yet here I am spent most of my money on lunch. So it's like, well, we need to fix that. So it's not about you shouldn't be spending money on lunch. What a waste of money. It's like, if that doesn't make you feel good,

then we need to do something about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we had a great experience with the manuscript of the book before we even got it into the editing process at our publisher. We had people both from our literary agency and also staff from the publishing company, Atria, coming back to us and saying, oh my God, just in the few days, in the three days since I've read this, my husband and I sat down, we've already changed this. We've changed this. It's like we had converts to the book before we even got it published. It was just, it was really, really sweet. And that's, you know, that's what we want to hear. Absolutely. Another thing I really liked, and then this is again, another idea concept that I've been kind of sharing with people. And I love

that you put it in the book is that finance or taking care of your money is about taking care of yourself. It's about kind of like self-care. Most people think like that's described in the book, the character Zoe was told, you know, kind of like most of us, I think growing up, it's like, don't be selfish, take care of other people, be a good person. Don't, you know, and I was, I mean, I come from a Catholic background, like the guilt runs deep in my veins. So I'm all about like, I have to take care of everybody and then myself. Right. But it's ridiculous.

We need to take care of ourselves so we can take care of others. So we can, you know, contribute to our community or help our friends and family. And I think a lot of people think that is the last thing that they have to do. It's really like that airport or that, that airplane kind of a situation. I really like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's so jarring for a lot of people. And I, I think I say a lot of people, it's almost like a cognitive dissonance, this idea, you know, at one point in the book, Henry, the, the, the mentor figure for those who haven't read it says to Zoe, you know, the first principle is, is pay yourself first. And he says, Henry, the mentor figure, for those who haven't read it, says to Zoe, the first principle is pay yourself first. And he says, when you pay yourself first,

you're really putting yourself first. And that's uncomfortable for her, which I think it would be for a lot of people. What do you mean, put myself first? That's not the classic definition of an egocentric person. But as you say, the airplane example is when they go through the routine before you take off, they say in the event of an emergency, put your own oxygen mask on first. And your impulse, your instinct is to put the kid's mask on first because you want to take care of them because they're your kid. But if you pass out from anoxia, you're not going to do the kid any good. Exactly. Exactly.

It's like, how are they going to survive without you? Yeah. You can't give the world what you were put here to give the world. You can't contribute to society what you're meant to contribute to society if you're spending your entire life scrambling to pay your bills. You got to put your financial feet in the ground. You owe that to the world around you because that's the way you can become the full you. It definitely seemed like one of the kind of central themes of this book, which I've found in many books since, you know, in the past several decades. And I'm almost shocked that it's still kind of an issue, but I mean, I think it's just a big issue. It says that we're constantly busy and working and spending money. And then at the end of it, we don't really see anything. Like we're just so stuck in our little bubbles. Why do you feel like this is – I don't know. I just feel like with the internet and social media and all these advancements in technology, we'd be more aware or more educated about all this.

But we're not. We're still doing the same thing that our parents and grandparents were doing. It's just this kind of then always kind of feeling that pinch, I'm like, that was exactly me in my early 20s. I was exhausted. Yes. You know, here's what I think. most dramatically over the last couple of generations is the idea that something more than that is possible has kind of lit like a match in a lot more people. I mean, in the 1940s, the 1950s, and even the 1960s, the idea that there was more than that possible was ridiculous. I mean,

what was possible was retirement at the end. So when you're about to die from a heart attack, now you get to go to the Caribbean for a week. Yeah. And then die on your way back. That's right. If you're so lucky. But the idea that you could actually be in your 40s or 30s or 20, you could spend your entire life from the earliest years on doing something you love, working, benefiting society, contributing, and also doing well financially, that that could all feed itself, that that could all be one congruent piece. It isn't like work now, enjoy later, but you could do it all as one integrated thing. I think that the idea that that's actually possible for a large number of people, that's a revolutionary idea. I mean, like the four-hour work week or that kind of idea, the latte factor, that's,

you know, what it's all about. But I think you're right that I think that a lot of people didn't take that from the latte factor, because David's been talking about latte factor for 25 years, right? The book just came out, but the idea has been around for, he's talked about it since, you know, since the 90s. I think a lot of people didn't take that idea of this integration of finance and freedom. I think a lot of people took, as you say, this idea that we should stop spending on frills because we're being too luxurious and we should be more Victorian and more neat and tidy and take care of ourselves, be good little ants and not grasshoppers. That's not the message the message i'm glad that i'm glad because honestly that is the message that most people have taken away from the concept of the latte factor yeah in the media that is still how it's spun i'm like i don't think that's what he meant and that's why you know it was so cool i

don't want to give away the ending of the book because there really is a story to the book and there's a character and you know i will say that i every time i read the book i cry again because it's you know it moves me at the end but But the, the, the central character of the story, Zoe, she gets to a good place financially and it's not when she's 65 and it's not when she's 80. I mean, she, it's, she's young. And when we're talking about something that is, is meant to be for the here and the now and the immediate and the next few years and not just after 40 years when you retire. Agreed. And I think that even though kind of my generation, the millennials, I think we were

told the story from our parents that that is the structure of your life. It's go to school, get a job, work said job for so many years, then retire. That's what I was told because that's what they knew. That's what their parents knew. Things have changed quite a bit, like you mentioned. And I feel like we're realizing this now, luckily sooner rather than later way before retirement. So we're like, okay, maybe I can change things. Maybe I can take more risks or not stay with the same employer. Um, oh my gosh. I definitely felt when Zoe was talking to her mom, I'm like, yeah, I definitely talked to my mom sometimes like that, where she'd be like, oh, don't leave your job. You're so lucky. The grass may not be greener. Don't take that risk. And so I stayed on a lot of jobs for way too long that I hated. And I'm hopeful that

like this book and then younger generations will have a different kind of mindset that you don't have to wait until retirement to finally go traveling or do what you want. Oh my gosh, please don't do that. Because believe me, I know a lot of people, well, not a lot of people, but I know some people I've heard lots of stories, you know, kind of from, you know, my parents of their friends retiring and then a week later they're dead. Yeah. Oh boy. That's not good, right? Like you want to wait. But they went out with a smile on their golf cart. Yeah. And you know, it's a funny thing because with Zoe and the job, you know, we thought about that because we, she could have, and I won't give away whether she quits her job and goes to a new one or she doesn't because she's being tempted by this new job. But, you know, it's funny.

We wanted to give the message that sometimes the answer is get out of this job and strike out on your own and start your own company, be an entrepreneur or move to a different job or move to a different field. It's probably a different job or move to a different field. It's probably a different answer for everyone. I happen to be somebody who's, I've almost never held down a job. I've been entrepreneurial my whole life, but that's not for everybody. The point is we wanted to make was that you can, if you're at a job that works, great. If you're at a job that doesn't work, also great. There are things you can do to transform your life. It isn't necessarily about being an entrepreneur or about being an employee or about moving your job or keeping your job. All those possibilities are there, but no matter what your situation is, you can create a life of significant freedom and enjoy it now. Travel now. Take

photography lessons now. Take photography lessons now. Take dance lessons now. Write your book now. You can do that stuff that matters to you now. It doesn't have to wait. Absolutely. And like really now, like honestly, when I think of where I am now to where I started, lots of people are like, oh, you're lucky because I work for myself now. It's like, no, no, no. It's like I took so many risks and I did lots of things that kind of scared me, but excited me. And it was very calculated too. But it's like, I, the reason I was able to comfortably make those decisions to leave a job for another job or quit my job and just try to work for myself was because I was financially stable. I had money in the bank. I

took, you know, uh, the, all these concepts in the book and applied them to my life. But I feel like one of the things that I kind of took away from that, um, story too, in the book was don't ever make a decision, like a big decision about like your career or even your money, just hearing someone else's perspective. Cause they don't live your life. They're not in your shoes. They don't quite know. And never make a decision out of fear, fear of like losing that job. Like I, this is kind of like ridiculous, but I love period pieces. And so one of my favorites is Howard's end. I don't know if you've ever read the book or seen it, but basically there's one character who he gets

some advice. He's this kind of poor guy. He works as a clerk or something for a bank or something. You think I remember this, but I don't. Anyways, he has an okay job. And he's told by some of these kind of new friends that, oh, you know what? We hear that that's not a very stable company. It's probably going to foreclose. You should find another job. He takes their advice, even though they don't know much about his situation. And he quits it. He finds another job. What happens? That new job, they aren't doing so well, actually. They lay off him because he was one of the first ones or the last ones in the door and then he's you know broken out of a job and they're like oh sorry but so it's like if he had just really just like thanks for letting me know i'll

make a decision based off the information i have that this company is fine he would have been fine like that and but even though that is like from like the the 1800s, that concept is still viable today. That makes so much sense, especially when I finished university in 2009. People were just so panicked about every little thing. Oh, yes. Oh my gosh, what a time. I know. And I used to work in newspapers, too.

That was quite the industry to be in. Not a great layoff every week. Oh my God. Again, that goes back to the noise out there. And the noise be in. Not a great layoffs every week. Yeah. Oh my God. But that's, it's so, and again, that goes back to the noise out there and the noise could just be your friends and the noise could be the entire world of the internet telling you what you should, telling you what you should be afraid of. Yeah, I agree. Decision out of fear is, is hardly ever a good decision. Almost never, maybe never. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. I've never really made a decision out of fear that I didn't really look back. I'm like, I don't know if I needed to make that decision or whatever,

but it's the other side of it is like the taking risks. Sometimes it feels like fear, but it's not, it's, it's just like, I don't know. It's like a good fear. If that makes sense. Like I was terrified to leave my last job. Cause my mom's like, why are you leaving your job? It's stable. You've got benefits, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, number one, I can always get another job. It's not the end of the world. If I leave, work for myself for a few years, doesn't work out, get another job. So again, that calculated risk really kind of have your plan A, B, and C, but also you just got to kind of trust yourself in your gut and understand and really know, you know, what are you capable of? And sometimes when you are in that kind of flight or fight or

flight situation, you'll make it work. Like you will it work. At least that works for me, not necessarily for everybody. But when I'm put in a situation where it's like, you need to make it work, I figure it out. I'll figure out how to make some money. Hustler and us millennials, I think. Yeah. And I do think that there are people who are more, and I don't mean to make this black and white, like two camps, but there are people who are more suited to the entrepreneurial life. And there are people who are more naturally inclined to the employee life. And they're both entirely viable. But either way, there's one principle that applies universally to all people in any camp, and that is it's your life, and you kind of need to be at the steering wheel of it.

I mean, nobody else – you can get lots of great advice, and you can have lots of wisdom around you, but you do need to get behind the steering wheel and drive it yourself because even if you're an employee, you are bigger than the company you work for because it's your entire life. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You've got to take responsibility for, for your own life and your own future. And I think that's a big thing in personal finance. In my view, it's, it's not just about, you know, do this, do this, here's some rules of thumb, you know, calculate this. It's really about, uh, and, and this is also a point in the book. It's like, no one, no one's going to take care of your money. You have to take care of your money. And I think that's a big realization for people. People are like, oh, I kind of just figured my tax accountant

would figure that out or my financial advisor. It's like, no, they don't care. I'm old enough to remember very clearly when we lived in a world where all of our parents just thought the doctors took care of us. If there's anything wrong, you go to the family doctor. And family doctors still came to my house. I mean, I remember being a very, very young kid, my doctor making a house call. Well, then the 70s came and then the 80s came and we started realizing as a population that you couldn't leave it in the hands of doctors, that we had to start researching ourselves. And then the internet, of course,

made that more possible to do. And now it's an entirely different world. It didn't make doctors obsolete, but my God, your health. No one is responsible for your health but you. And as you just said it, your wealth is exactly the same way. There's still a reason to have financial professionals,

but it's your wealth health. It's your money health. It's your wealthness. Wealthness. Ooh, I like that. Hey, new term. We just coined it. your wealth health. It's your money health. It's your wealthness. Wealthness. Oh, I like that. Hey, new term. We just coined it. Wealthness.

We just coined it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, John, for taking the time to chat with me. Big fan of your book and will tell everybody to read it, of course, because I think it's just a good read that anyone could pick up

and I think get a little bit of inspiration to kind of make some make some moves, make some money moves in their life. Thank you so much. I love the conversation. Thank you for having me. And everybody remember this stuff in the book. It's a story, but it's also real. Yeah, I'm pretty. Yeah, absolutely. I think you can see yourself in it. If not, you can see a family member or friend in it. That's for sure. And I think that's why it resonated so much for me. So where can more people learn more about you and grab a copy of this book, The Latte Factor? The Latte Factor is going to be available like everywhere that you can find a book.

It'll be there. You can find out more on me and my website, which is just my name. It's John with an H, J-O-H-N, David Mann, M-A-N-N.com. All my books are there. All my stuff is there. Fabulous. Yes, I'm going to definitely check out the, I mean, I may not be able to read

every single book you've co-authored. There's a lot, but I'll try my best. Pick and choose, pick and choose. I'll pick and choose. Thanks again. Thanks, Jessica. Take care. And that was episode 190 with John David Mann.

And we were talking about his new book that is co-authoring with David Bach called The Latte Factor, which is on bookshelves May 7th. Pre-order now. But I'm going to share some details on how you can enter to win a free copy of his book when it's out in just a few seconds. Here's just a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Sonnet Insurance. It can be pretty time-consuming collecting insurance quotes to compare prices. What's great about Sonnet is that you can do it entirely online and get a quote in just minutes.

Even better, if you decide to buy Sonnet Insurance, you can do that online too. It's so easy to use and understand. It really makes insurance simple. You can even see your quote update in real time if you add additional coverage or change your deductible. So you can confidently know what's in your policy and how the cost compares to competitors. Need to see it to believe it? Try it out yourself by visiting sonnet.ca. Once again, that's sonnet.ca. Okay, as promised, so if you want to win a free copy of The Latte Factor or any of the books that I've had featured on the podcast so far, you can do that by either checking out the show notes, jessicamorehouse.com slash 190, or you can go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contests. And there will be all the information about all

the book giveaways that I am doing. And I've been doing these contests for a little while now, and I will start to be picking winners very soon. So make sure that you enter before time runs out. Now, I have got some other really exciting news that I cannot wait to share with you. However, basically, I cannot share any details until April 1st. That is the day that we, I can't even tell you who I'm talking about, but it's going to be amazing. I'm basically doing something very, very special coming up. I'm going to be announcing it in April, on April 1st specifically.

And the best way you can find out about exactly what the hell I'm talking about, because I know I'm being very mysterious, is by, of course, listening to the podcast. But you'll always be the first to know about any exciting developments in what I'm up to, new things, events, giveaways, whatever, if you sign up to my newsletter. So just go to jessicamorris.com slash subscribe in order to do that. But yeah, super exciting news. April 1st, cannot wait to share it with you. And that was sadly all I can say. I'll share more on the podcast, obviously, next week. But yeah, exciting things get on the newsletter. And yeah, it'll be exciting.

Another thing that I highly encourage you to do is I have a free, amazing Facebook group called the Money Life Balance Facebook group. You can find more details on my website or just go, you know, search money life balance in Facebook. But basically there's over, I think 1800 people now. I can't remember. Um, but there's a good big group of us. Uh, it's been around for a couple of years now and I just created it as a way to have a safe space where we can all talk about

money, all components of money, taxes, um,, taxes, investing, saving, whatever the case. And it is basically a great space where you can ask any of your questions. You can be American, you can be Canadian, you can be from any part of the world, join in and you can ask your questions and just see what other people say and also see what other people are doing with their money. But basically the reason I created it was as you know, as much as I love, you know, Reddit and lots of other Facebook groups, a lot of people have a lot of opinions and they can be super judgy or just give bad information. And so I needed to create my own group so I can monitor it. So I can make sure that the information that is, um, being kind of put out there, uh, is accurate and correct. And I usually am in there to correcting people.

Um, or, you know, if someone has basically kind of a negative attitude, well, bye, there's no room for you. This is a judgment-free zone. It's all about positivity and, you know, empowering each other and learning from each other so we can all be better at money. So make sure to join the Facebook group and I'd love to see you in there. We're always chatting in there. We share like Friday wins. It's just like a good old time. Another thing I highly recommend you do if you haven't already is, you know, check me out on the gram. I am more active on Instagram now and I'm actually having a lot of fun.

So if you want to see what I'm up to more than, you know, what I kind of share on Facebook or Twitter, that is where you'd find me on Instagram. And my handle is just Jessica I. Morehouse. Once again, that's Jessica I. Morehouse on the Instagram. Okay, that is it for me. Thanks so much for listening. I'm going to be back here next week with a fresh new episode of the show. So thanks a bunch. Make sure to subscribe. Make sure to leave me a review on iTunes if you would be so kind. And I will see you back here next Wednesday with a fresh new episode. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network.

Find out more at womeninmedia.network.