More Money Podcast - 203 Solutions for Your Student Debt - David Carlson, Author & Founder of Young Adult Money

Episode Date: June 5, 2019

For the last interview episode of Season 8, I talk with David Carlson, the founder of Young Adult Money, and the author of Student Debt Solutions. And his book and student debt (and finding solutions to paying it down) are exactly what we chat about in this interview. This is pretty timely too since many students are graduating university with student debt and don’t know where to start in paying it back. If you are a student and are in this situation, just remember you are not alone. So many other new post-grads are in the same exact situation, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take them seriously. The sooner you start paying them back, the sooner you’ll be debt free and can allocate that money towards something much more fun like traveling, buying a home or investing. If you know of a new post-grad freaking out because they’ve got a five or six figure student debt burden looming over them, share this episode with them! Where to Start with Student Debt Student debt is the ultimate obstacle to overcome, but it’s not as easy as just saying “Make more money and you’ll pay it off quicker.” Like David did, earning more money is of course a good solution. He started a side hustle on top of his day job which helped him pay off his student loans quicker. But that’s not the only thing you need to do. You need to make a financial plan starting with crafting a budget and saving up for an emergency fund. The emergency fund is crucial as it will help prevent you from getting into more debt. For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/203 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 203 of the Mo Money Podcast. I am your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back. This is the last week of season eight of the show. Oh, I can't believe we're already here. I mean, there's been a lot of episodes to be fair in the season. So this is why we need to take a little bit of a minute, a break, summer break, really. And so I've got an episode for you today. And I've got one final solo episode that you're not going to want to miss tomorrow. It is all about answering your investing questions. So if you have some guaranteed one of the questions that I answer in tomorrow's episode, you'll have had a thought about it. You'll have been like, oh,

yeah, I've thought about that. And I'm glad that you've answered it for me, Jessica. So, but for this episode, this is my last interview of the season and I am interviewing David Carlson. So you may know him. He's been a longtime blogger. His blog is Young Adult Money. I feel like we started our blogs around the same time. We've never met, which feels like weird because I feel like I've known him for years, but same time we've never met, which feels weird

because I feel like I've known him for years, but surprisingly, we've never met in person yet. So beyond just having his Young Adult Money blog, he's also authored a couple books, including Student Loan Solution, which is the new book that just came out that we're going to be talking about more in this episode. And also he has his first book, Hustle Away Debt as well. So both debt focused, but specifically this episode is really going to be talking about student debt and basically what to do if you have it. And I'm going

to say 90% of you probably still have student loans and there's nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to student loans. I feel like especially us millennials get a lot of flack for, oh, why are you so in debt? Because freaking school's expensive and we're in this weird time where in order to get a job that pays well, that actually has some growth potential, you have to have a degree. And so then you have to go to school. And most of us don't have, you know, I honestly don't even know how much university costs anymore. I've been out of school for about 10 years, but 20, 30, 40, $50,000 per year. It's just not as easy. And I've had to kind of reconcile with that because part of my journey was

I was able to pay my own way through university. I talk about that in the episode a little bit, how I have special circumstances. I was able to go to a school near where my parents lived. I was able to live at home rent-free. I really didn't have any expenses besides maybe my cell phone, my car, going out with friends, textbooks, tuition. That was kind of all I had to pay for. Everything was taken care of. And so I was able to work a part-time job, 20 to 30 hours per week and go to school and balance it all out. It wasn't easy. I mean, I worked a ton and had to say no to a lot of fun things because I had to make some money.

And I still had to take out some student loans. So I understand it's a tricky situation. So that's what we're going to talk about in this episode. If you have student loan debt, what to do? What do we do? Now, full disclosure, obviously, David Carlson's from the States. So things are a little bit different here in Canada. But I think all the things that we talk about are pretty relatable, no matter where you live. So I'm just going to first share a few words about this episode's sponsor and then get to that interview with David Carlson. This episode of the Momany podcast is supported by Willful, a company on a mission to make sure every adult has a will. Look, I'll be the first to admit that talking about death is no one's idea of a good time. But just like taxes, death is a certainty

we all face. You see, while we can't predict what life might throw at us, we can at least prepare. If not for ourselves, for the people who matter most to us. Enter Willful. Willful guides users step-by-step through a series of questions to generate a customized legal last will and testament starting at $99. This essential document lets you name your executor who will carry out your wishes, name guardians for minor children and or pets, and much more. If you're getting married, buying a

home, having kids, or just generally want to give your family peace of mind by creating your estate plan, go to willful.co to learn more about making a plan for your estate. Make sure to use code MOMONEY15 for 15% off any Willful plan. Once again, that's willful.co and code MOMONEY15 for 15% off or just check out the show notes for this episode. Willful is currently available in BC, Ontario, and Alberta. Thanks so much, David, for joining me on the show. Excited to have you here. Thanks for having me. Excited to chat with you. Yes, I am so thrilled to have you on the show as basically also the last episode of season eight of the podcast. Appreciate you being my last guest. I first want, I feel, have we met before? I'm not even sure. I don't think we met in person. Nope. Maybe not. I feel like I do know you or about you just through the personal finance blogosphere. So I feel like I know you, but I don't know you.

Yeah, no, I have a lot of people in the personal finance space that are like that. So yeah, I've definitely been a reader of your blog, Young Alley at Money. So let's go back. Let's start from the beginning, how you got into personal finance and you started with that blog. I feel like that blog's been around for a while because it's been on my radar for a long time. Yeah. So I started the blog in 2012, coming up here on seven years of the blog being active. Yeah. Time flies. Yeah. So I started that a couple years after finishing college. I actually worked for a personal finance blog kind of as a side hustle throughout college,

and I learned a little bit about blogging there. And that's also why I ultimately decided to start a personal finance blog. Number one, you learn a lot as you're working on it. Number two, I think blogging is just a great kind of small business that you can start. personal finance blog. Number one, you learn a lot as you're working on it. Number two, I think blogging is just a great kind of small business that you can start. And there's a lot that you can do with it. I would agree. I feel like as I started my blog, probably close to the same time you did, because I've had mine for about seven and a half years. And I completely agree. It was something that I started as a hobby. And it's, I mean, it's been able, it's enabled me to leave my job and now just kind of just do personal finance full time. And I assume that's, so is that kind of the trajectory that your blog took?

It was something that you kind of just did for fun and then it kind of grew? Yeah, I'd say it definitely was a way to make side income. So bringing this back to student loans, my wife and I both graduated with a combined $100,000 in undergrad student loan debt. Oh, wow. What did you guys study? Well, first of all, we both went to private colleges in the Twin Cities area here in Minnesota, which typically you'll graduate with more debt. But it also, I mean, the way it's set up here, it's all based on how much income your parents make and whether or not they contribute towards your education doesn't really matter as far as how much they're going to charge you. So if they make enough, you're going to be charged a certain

amount. So I think that comes into play as well. Not that we didn't get any help, but I think that's what a lot of students are facing in the U.S. So I studied corporate finance and political science and she studied psychology, which kind of ties into the book as well. And I love talking about the psychology career path because it's just a really demanding one where you have to get your undergrad degree. And if you want to be a licensed therapist, you really do have to go get a master's. But I mean, you're looking at 50K plus price tag for that as well. Yeah, no, it's the same thing up here in Canada, which is why it was actually one path I thought I would go into just because I was, I mean, I still am very interested in psychology, but when I learned, oh, you need an undergrad and then a master's and then possibly a PhD. And I'm like, I, that's a lot of school. And at the time I'm like, no,

once I'm done my bachelor's, I'm done. And now I've been back to school several times since then. But yeah, that's, that's a lot of school and that's a lot of debt, a hundred thousand dollars. What, what were you like when you graduated and you had that student debt, what was your kind of mindset? Did it just seem like we're never going to pay this off? I'd say my mindset, and I think it really comes out in the recent book that I wrote. I like to put all the options on the table.

This is where we are. We can't change the past. Our minimum payment was $1,000 a month. Wow. That's a lot. That's a high price tag. It's becoming much more typical here in the US. So my mindset was, what can we do to kind of offset that payment? And I was kind of thinking of it as a cash flow perspective because I have peers at my workplace who had much less debt or no student loan debt, but we were both kind of starting out the same. You naturally kind of compare yourself to them, you know, making the same amount,

living in the same place, doing the same job. For me, it was more about kind of level setting and seeing, okay, besides my nine to five, how can I make an additional thousand dollars offset this? So blogging was one way. We did a number of things to kind of strategize and make our money work for us as much as we could. And I guess it sounds like you guys were pretty lucky in that you were able to find work right after college. Yeah. Again, my wife's career path was a little bit different. I started literally the weekend, or I guess the Monday after I graduated, I started working full time, which was great. And I've actually stayed at the same company for almost a decade now. So I've been definitely blessed and privileged by having that opportunity. But my wife, we all knew, well, we both knew that she had to get her

master's to do what she wanted to do, if not a PhD, because she really does love research and that's something that she still might want to do down the road. But the master's is just grueling because, um, like I said, they're charging these psychology students 50K plus for a master's. And beyond that, they have to do 800 hours of practicum, which is basically, honestly, free labor at a clinic. So if you think about it, with us, we obviously had dual income, so it was easier. But think of a single person who had even 30 to 50k coming out of undergrad, going to get their master's, they're really forced to work part-time. Some of the loans they're taking out of grad school are just to get by. So it's kind of a difficult situation. It's not really possible to have that part-time job and do all of that other stuff, like go to school and do the practicum. It's just not really feasible.

Yeah, because my wife was working full-time pretty much the whole time she got her master's. But during that, she had to drop down to part-time and just a difficult path. Is it possible? Because I read a lot of articles. I think the student debt problem in the US is pretty significant. That's very clear from what I see in the media. It's pretty significant in Canada too. I feel like it might be worse or maybe that's just the from what I see in the media. It's pretty significant in Canada too. I feel like it might be worse, or maybe that's just the tone that I get from the media about what's going on in the US. Is it just the idea of being able to pay your way through school, work and go to school and graduate without debt? Is that just not possible these days? Is school just so much more expensive than how much you can earn on your own while being a student and working? Yeah, I mean, that's a very fair point. So a story growing up,

I had this asthma doctor who was a bit older and he said when he went and got his MD, he actually, I think his wife worked while he went to medical school. They paid it in cash. And then once he started working, they paid for her to go to medical school in cash. And that's kind of an extreme example where medical school, a lot of people are leaving with, you know, 400,000, 500,000 of that, just massive amounts. But look at the undergrad perspective. Yeah, it used to be possible to potentially work full time and pay your way through. And I think in some situations you can do that if you have the right scholarships, if your financial aid package works out in your favor. But for the most part, I mean, even if you're working full time, I think it's pretty difficult to pay your way through undergrad, especially if you're taking a full load of courses. Yeah, no, and that's very true. When I kind of look back, it's been, oh, I graduated in 2009. I'm like, I'm not even sure. Yeah, that was like a decade ago. I'm like, yeah, I think that's right. And I took five years to do, like I did basically, I think all the

things that I needed to do in order to graduate. I still got, had a student loan, um, to pay off. It was only $5,000. So it was basically to cover my, uh, maybe my last year of university. And even in my last year, I didn't take a full course load. And that's also just to represent how cheap it was at the time. I didn't think I was cheap, but it was very, like looking back, like very affordable to, you know, comparing how much it costs to go to school. But, you know, I chose a university near where my parents lived. I still lived at home. I was able

to work part-time and I took five years instead of four. And so I think all those things added together, that's how I was still able to graduate with a very small loan. But I feel like, well, that may not be an option for people. They may not be able to stay alone. Maybe your parents are retiring and they're selling the family home and going to buy a condo. And so you have to figure it out. Or maybe the program you want to do is at a specific school. And so you have to live there and pay for living costs. There's lots of things that I think when I was very of the mindset when I graduated, I'm like, I don't understand why all these people have student loans. And I think I just have very special circumstances. I was pretty lucky in that I was able to work and stay at home and take my

time and stuff like that, whereas lots of people don't have that option. So just to go on kind of a different tangent, the idea of university these days, I think it's still very important for a lot of different career paths. Still, most employers require a university education. What I've been seeing in Canada, at least, is this shift because so many people are graduating with debt and still can't really find a job or they find a job and it's still actually not well paying. What are your sentiments on just, you know, is university what it's, you know, stacked up to be these days or is it just like now everyone's doing it so it's not as significant anymore? Yeah, I mean, it kind of feels like you have to go and get a degree regardless. And I had an interesting conversation with another personal finance individual in the space. And they had an intern working for them who they were ready to hire after like a year or two of

them going to school. And they said like, hey, I'm ready to hire you now. But the issue is, if that person was to leave college after a year or two and work for them, what if that company that they went to work for got sold or they want to move to a different company? They're going to see that they never got that degree and they might be locked out of a lot of opportunities. So it's tough. I almost feel like on an individual level, you're just way better off getting a degree just so that you have it and you can check that box. I guess, yeah. The only thing is if you have plans to maybe start your own company, then it's kind of a different ballgame. But if you want to work at a company, it does seem like it's still

a requirement. I still see that for all these job postings out there. But what is frustrating to see is a lot of the salaries just like aren't keeping pace like you have all the student led it's very expensive and then you graduate and you expect a job and it's hard to find one because it's very competitive because everyone else has a degree so how do you stand out and then when you do find that job they're gonna not necessarily pay you something that you're like oh i thought it'd be paid more because I have a degree. Yeah, definitely the wage issue is a huge problem. It just seems like in general, cost of living has increased in a lot of the metro areas as far as, you know, like child care here in Minneapolis, St. Paul, it's risen significantly the past decade. I mean, that alone makes it difficult to live here with kids and to work and

whatnot. I do think the economy has been very well, obviously, the past decade. Well, not the full decade, but it's ramped up the past decade. So in the U.S., I think it's been a little bit easier to get in those jobs. Similar to you, I graduated around the same time. I graduated in 2010 and the economy hadn't quite picked up yet. So I was pretty happy when I got in at a big company. But yeah, if the economy goes down, then we definitely have an even bigger problem as far as people not being able to get into well-paying jobs. I guess one thing that has been helpful though is companies like Glassdoor. I don't know how much you've looked at stuff like that. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's unfortunate that you kind of have to leave a company to really right size your pay because your current employer has all

your salary history. You can fight for it. But if you really want those bigger increases and getting that market rate, you kind of have to at least leave. You can potentially come back, but you have to go to another company. Yeah, that's something that I feel like learned the hard way because, you know, I got a lot of my information about like careers and stuff from my parents or their friends. And they were, you know, kind of lifers at their jobs. They would stay for decades because they're like, no, that's how you grow in a company and you get those raises and those promotions. And then I tried to do the same thing and I never once got a promotion. And it's not that I wasn't doing good work. It was like,

oh, our budgets, this and that. And so the only time I ever got a raise is really when I left that job for another company. And I think that's still, that's still how it is. It's kind of unfortunate because don't, you know, wouldn't companies want their employees to be loyal, but there's kind of no incentive. Hopefully, maybe that'll change. But it sounds like you've been at that same company for a while. So maybe your experience is a bit different. Yeah, well, at my nine to five, I'm at one of the biggest companies in the US. So it's almost like, trying to think of the best way to describe it. There's a bunch of businesses within one giant business. So you can kind of move around a little bit.

Okay, so you can still move around. Yeah. So, I mean, it's worked out for me, but I think if you're at kind of a smaller midsize company, making those jumps to other companies can definitely help. And honestly, even where I work, there's a ton of people who have left and come back because honestly, that's how you get those increases.

Oh, really? So you can come back, be like, I have more experience, this and that. Maybe went back to school. So you can ask for a much bigger salary than where you left off. Yeah, and I'd say even, not even going back to school, but just going to another company for a year because it kind of resets where your pay is at.

And I think one good thing about salaries is that there have been some legislation passed across the U.S. where it bans employers from asking for your most recent pay because that's really the reason why you have to leave because your current employer has all that history but if you move elsewhere and you can avoid sharing your current pay then they're not basing off of that they're basing off of true market demand yeah no i i don't know what the situation is in canada in terms of just like legalities but yeah for every interview i've ever had usually or even in the application they would require you or yeah, I think it was always like a required field to fill in like what you earned at your last job, which I always found like, what's that matter that it could be a very different job than what I'm applying for. And also now I feel like the reason I'm leaving is to get a, you know, more money. So why are you comparing to like, don't give me what I'm, you know, already earning. I always felt that was so kind of unfair, but I guess that's just how it goes. I want to talk a little bit more about

student loans because your book, Student Loan Solutions, is obviously about student loan solutions, the five steps to take control of your student loans and financial life. So we've talked a little bit about the student loan problem. And it's true, I talk to people all the time. Almost everyone I know has student loans, and now we're entering our 30s, and we're still paying these student loans. What is your kind of strategy or what are some of your kind of insight into how to tackle this head on so you aren't 40 and still paying off your student loans? I remember reading that. I'm just like right now reading Michelle Obama's autobiography or her memoir. And I remember reading somewhere, I don't think it was in the book, it was an article

that when Obama became president, he still had student loans. And that is insane to me. So what can people do to make sure that does not happen to them? Yeah, I mean, again, in the US, it's become such a big problem that you could potentially have student loans into your 40s. And for some people, that is going to be a reality because there is income-driven repayment loan forgiveness, where if you make income-adjusted payments for 20 to 25 years, you can have your loans forgiven. You are taxed on that with that program. And it does take, like I said, 20 to 25 years, which is a long time. But for some people, they just have so much debt and it's just out of whack

with their income where that might actually be the best approach for them versus trying to make an extra two grand a month and working two jobs for 10, 15 years. But yeah, kind of my approach is number one, you got to lay everything on the table. You got to understand what loans you have, why that matters, whether you have federal or private, and then really what opportunities are available to you as far as repayment options. For some people, it does make sense to aggressively pay down their debt, but for others, it's just not in line with their financial situation. Again, going back to therapists, so let's say there's a therapist making $40,000 and they have $150,000 of student loan debt. Honestly, their best move is probably, in the U.S. at least, to go work for a 501c3 nonprofit or a government

employer and pursue public service loan forgiveness, which is 10 years of payments and tax-free forgiveness where you could have $200,000 forgiven and you're not going to pay any taxes on that, which could be a really big benefit because during that time, just the way the calculation works, you could be putting money into a retirement account. You could be building your emergency fund. You could really leave that situation much better off. But people, number one, have to know that that opportunity is available and know whether or not their loans are eligible. And just really kind of look at those different opportunities. Besides that, with this book, there's a lot of student loan books out there that kind of go over student loans in detail and kind of talk about these

different programs. But as a personal finance blogger, the way I think of it, you have to think of your full situation. So somebody who doesn't have an emergency fund, who has potentially high interest credit card debt or no money set aside for medical emergencies, which is another thing that's important in the US, it might not make sense to make any extra payments towards your debt. And it might make sense

to get on that income driven repayment plan because you can work on those higher priority financial items like building an emergency fund. Yep. No, definitely. I feel like I also sometimes see you on Facebook or in Facebook groups always kind of correcting people because a lot of people have, I think, a lot of misinformation about student loan forgiveness programs, and people have a lot of sentiment about that. What is a lot of the confusion? I think a lot of people feel like, oh, these people that are getting this forgiveness program or participating in it are just getting a handout. But that's not what it is, is it? I'd say public service loan forgiveness is definitely controversial in the United States. Yeah. Yeah. There's the debates really heating up whenever anybody

comments about it. Because on the one hand, some people say, well, what about me or someone else who, you know, work through college and really sacrifice after college and got rid of their debt. I'm not getting any payment for that, but I'm also, as a taxpayer, subsidizing someone who's getting public service loan forgiveness, as an example. So yeah, I mean, there's definitely valid points on each side, but student loan debt is unique in the sense that you can't discharge it in bankruptcy, or I should say it's very difficult to. You definitely can in very rare circumstances. So it's not like someone who took out a loan on a house and can just walk away from it or got 100K of credit card debt and they have the opportunity to discharge that. There's obviously

consequences there, but student loan debt's unique where it kind of stays with you. So I personally think it makes sense to create some exit plans for them where they're not going to be making payments from age 25 to 90 or whenever they pass away. And I do think the program is a little bit complicated. A lot of people got rejected initially because they didn't check all the boxes, which is another aspect to it. But some people have kind of latched onto that, some very big names in personal finance, to kind of scare people away from it. But if you know how to navigate it, something like public service loan forgiveness, it could really be a swing of, I mean, this might be extreme example, but 200 to 300K net worth if you kind of navigate the program strategically. So there's definitely benefits

to people who are eligible for that. No, definitely. And I'm sure you also saw this. I feel like this was kind of floating around on social media the past week or so. There was an article that someone wrote or shared about, you know, there was that billionaire who basically said he was going to pay the student loans of that graduating class from that Morehouse College, which I think is very funny because it's very similar to my last name, but different spelling. But I thought that was kind of cool. And a lot of people are like, that's so great. And a lot of people were kind of like, but what about me? I worked really hard. I don't think that's really fair. What were, like, did you have any sentiments about when

that conversation was floating around or kind of the same thing about just like the different student loan forgiveness programs? Yeah, I definitely saw some of that floating around. I guess my takeaway and just from writing the book and going kind of deeper into student loans the past year, there's just so many people that are suffering from high levels of student loan debt that whenever anyone can get relief, I feel like it's a good thing. And in this case, it's honestly a private individual

making this gift to these students. So I don't know. I mean, good for them and good for him for doing it. Yeah, it's not really hurting anyone. It's not the same as a government program. It's literally just a really rich individual saying, I want to pay it forward and just help these people out of my own pocket and that's it. Can't really complain about that. It's like, if you didn't graduate that class, that's just how the dice rolled. It is what it is. Yeah. You got to kind of move on from it. Yeah. But yeah, I feel like a lot of people have very strong feelings about debt because debt is such a burden. And if you do take the time and the energy to pay it off and don't have some special program to help you, when you see someone

else getting some extra help, you kind of feel like, oh, well, so I had a little bit more of a burden or there was a bit more of a struggle with my situation. That's not really fair. But what I like to tell people is life isn't fair. You know, sorry, it's not. I mean, on a smaller scale, they had a new homebuyer tax credit, I think maybe a decade ago, maybe not a full decade, but a few years back in the US where if you were a first time homebuyer within like this certain 12 or 24-month period, you receive something like an $8,000 tax credit. And I mean, me as a renter at that time, I was like, so am I going to get that five, 10 years from now when I buy a home? I mean, it's kind of a similar thing where you do kind of look at it differently depending on where you're sitting. I think people with

student loan debt think forgiveness is a good thing, but obviously those who haven't had to deal with it sometimes can look at it a little bit differently. Yeah. And you've probably experienced this or have talked to people in your research for this book. When people are dealing with student debt, which is a very special debt in that it won't go away, it can really just, I feel like, halt your life. It kind of freezes you in your tracks because you can't really, I feel like, move forward with some of those other things that you want to do, like become a homeowner or really start aggressively investing for your retirement. Maybe you're delaying having a family because you have this big burden and you're just trying to make those payments and pay your living expenses. It can really affect people

negatively, especially when they're dealing with a big amount of debt like $50,000 or $100,000. So I feel like we need to be aware of this. It's like student debt sucks so i i wonder in your book do you talk about what can people do um because we talked a little bit about like okay when you have debt here are some kind of things to do i want to kind of talk a little bit more about that but also is there anything that people can do to kind of prevent the debt load like maybe it's not impossible maybe it's not possible anymore to avoid debt completely but what can people do to not maybe have as big of a burden? Yeah. So this book was definitely focused on people who have already incurred debt, well incurred student loan debt, but kind of towards the end of the book, after kind of going

through all the different steps of evaluating your situation and getting on the best student loan repayment strategy for you. One thing that I encourage people to do is to continuously improve their finances. So I talk about tracking your expenses earlier in the book, but towards the end, really talk about taking advantage of budgeting and seeing where can you save money and what's your priorities when you're spending your money? And are there areas that you're spending a lot on that you don't really care about that you could cut out? And then again, the big thing too is always how much are you making? Is there opportunities at your nine to five job to get a raise? Maybe you should consider leaving your company if you're clearly getting underpaid or maybe

you do want to start a side hustle that could have potential to bring in a decent amount of income so i think i'm all about you know attacking it from all different angles whether it's saving more making more money looking for those opportunities to kind of optimize your finances. One thing that I'll mention is that as far as travel goes, my wife and I probably haven't paid for a flight in cash in maybe five years. But that's through a lot of working the credit card rewards programs and taking advantage of that. And we don't travel a ton, which also helps. If you only travel two or three times a year, it's easier to of that. And we don't travel a ton, which also helps if you only travel, you know, two or three times a year, it's easier to do that. But even things like that, where if

you add up all the dollars over time, I mean, that probably equals thousands of dollars of savings, but it's a little bit of a non-traditional approach to making debt more manageable and just improving your finances. Yeah. So as it kind of sounds like what you're saying is in order to really get, you know, take control of your student loan situation, which sucks it, you've got to really take care of your whole financial picture. It's not just like, there's this one thing you just need to figure out. It's no, you need kind of to look at your whole financial picture, create that foundation, which I completely agree with. I tell everybody ever, please make a budget, track your spending, track your net worth. Those are so key because so many people, and I'm sure you experienced this too,

have no idea where their money is and they complain all about it and they don't do anything about it. I'm like, well, there's a very easy solution. Just find out where that money is. It actually will take you like 20 minutes to figure that out. It's not that hard. And then kind of like you said, cut back where you can. And once there's nowhere else to cut back, then it's time to look at where can we make more money? Do we have to ask for a raise or go to a different company to earn more? Or should we start a side hustle on top? And I mean, I had a side hustle on top of my day job after university. And it's one of the things that absolutely helped me survive living in an expensive city, paying off that student loan, dealing with some unemployment along the

way, but still being able to achieve some of my big financial goals like a wedding or travel and stuff like that. And I definitely appreciate the whole psychological aspect to it. Psychological aspect of money. Because I know some people who I'm very close to, I won't mention their names, but they didn't even look at my blog for the first probably four years, but they had some like clear financial issues that they need to deal with. And it was just easier, they said, to kind of ignore it and go on your way because they were afraid of what they're going to find out. Even by reading articles about finance and kind of opening up all their finances and looking at it. So I get that there's a psychological aspect to it, but the sooner you can kind of get over that hump and just put everything on the table, look at your options and kind of

confront reality, the sooner you can start making progress. Absolutely. Yeah, no, that is so true. When you aren't a big money nerd like you and me, where we love diving in and talking and learning about money. And you have, you know, student loan. And I think student loans are very similar to kind of other types of debt. There's a lot of negative sentiments around them. Like if you have like a line of credit or credit card debt or, you know, private loan, whatever it is, you feel a little bit of, you know, embarrassment and shame that you got yourself into the situation and you're having a difficult time digging your way out. A lot of people don't talk about that they're in debt. Most people are in debt. And so there's a

lot of, you know, not so good feelings. And also, it can be intimidating. I even recognize this too in the personal finance, you know, blogosphere. A lot of people, you know, some people are still, you know, talking about their journeys, their debts, their mistakes, but a lot of people are just talking about how much money they're making, how great their life is. And that can make you feel kind of bad about your situation if you're in a very different situation where you're like, okay, well, I'm living paycheck to paycheck. So I don't feel good getting... I want to learn and I want to educate myself, but some of this information makes me feel kind of bad about myself right now. I've been in that situation, I'll tell you.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of blogs out there that have income reports. And I get that they have a place and they have inspired some people to take certain actions. But I also, I can't help but think that there's tons of people who've looked at them and they've just felt depressed about their situation. And definitely the opposite of motivating, just demotivating and maybe even making them less likely to look at their finances. Yeah, no, that was exactly. That's why I've never done them. And I do understand why people do them. It is interesting to know how much people make and where their money goes. But believe me, when I was in my mid to early 20s, looking at some of these bloggers income reports, and I was making literally no money working two jobs. And I'm like,

they're complaining about their financial situation. And yet they're making like $50,000. At the time, I was making 30. I'm like, I can't even relate. I just can't relate. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, before I let you go, who is your kind of ideal person to grab a copy of your book? If someone is listening, they hear kind of some of the things that we were talking about, they're in a situation where they have some student debt and they've never really taken a good look at how can I maybe improve my situation? What would you like to say to them? Yeah, I'd say if they haven't really looked at all their options, they don't understand what the best strategy might be, I definitely recommend them picking up a book.

I spent a lot of time making it so the book was very easy to kind of go step by step, scenario by scenario. There's obviously a lot of different types of loans, especially in the United States. And they each have different implications, different repayment plans, forgiveness programs, all of that. I definitely encourage them to check it out. And I would also just kind of add again that I think I take a little bit of a different approach where I try to show a lot of empathy towards situations where it's not as simple as, you know, if you can't afford your student loans, you need to make more money. Cause I know some other books that literally start with that. Basically you can't afford it. Then you need to fix your situation first. You need to make more money

or save more money so you can pay off your debt. It's like easier said than done, you know? It's not always that simple. So I definitely recommend people check it out and follow the steps and kind of see what the best strategy is for them because it might be a little bit different than what they originally thought. And you have another book too that you released before this.

What was that called again? Yes, that was Hustle Away Dead. And that was, again, kind of inspired by student loans I was talking about earlier. That $1,000 a month payment that we had on our student loan debt, that's what motivated me to look into side hustles. So it was really just kind of expanding on that topic and talking about finding the right side hustle for you and leveraging that to kind of offset your debt payments and ultimately eliminate your debt. Nice. Well, I'm a big fan of side hustles, so that's awesome.

Thank you so much, David, for taking the time to chat with me and share some of your expertise. I feel like a lot of people are going to get a lot out of this and definitely want to grab a copy of your book because I think there's some stat what is like 70% of college graduates have student loans or are burdened with student loans. I'm sure it's similar in Canada. So it's pretty much a topic I think everyone can relate to.

Or someone they know, for sure. Oh, yeah. Or someone they know. Absolutely. So thanks again for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. And that was episode 203 of the Mo Money Podcast with David Carlson. Make sure to check out his website, youngadultmoney.com and grab a copy of his new book, Stone Loan Solution. If you are, you know, basically need some help with your student loan situation,

make sure to check out the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 203 for more info about what we talked about in this episode. And I've got some very important things I need to share with you. And this is the last week I can really do it. So stick around just a few words I want to share about this episode sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money podcast is supported by Willful, the online will company on a mission to bring estate planning out of the shadows and into the same conversations as insurance, financial planning, and investing. Creating your will doesn't have to be expensive, time-consuming, or scary. Just like tax and investing software has changed the way we approach those once-overwhelming elements of personal finance, Willful is using technology to simplify the way we create

estate planning documents. You spend your life creating value, wealth, and accumulating property and assets. Estate planning is one way to make sure your legacy benefits the people and organizations that matter the most to you. Life gets busy and budgets are stretched enough as it is. For the reported 56% of Canadian adults who do not have a will, Willful is offering an affordable, well-designed solution to get you closer to peace of mind. If you want to learn more about Willful, head to willful.co for all the details. Use code MOMONEY15 for 15% off any Willful plan. Once again, that's willful.co and code MOMONEY15 for 15% off or just check out the show notes for this episode. Willful is currently available in BC, Ontario, and Alberta.

Okay, first and foremost, so y'all know once this week wraps up, I will be on hiatus until basically mid to late September is when I will start season nine of the show. To get all of these updates, make sure that you are following me on social media. You know, my main ones, well, I'm kind of everywhere. Let's be honest. I'm on the LinkedIn, the Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. But the best place to really find out all the deets of what's going on is going on my email list.

So jessicamorris.com slash subscribe. And also when you do subscribe, you will be able to get access into my free resource library where there's a ton of free videos, worksheets, downloads, cheat sheets. I mean, it's free guys. So if you want to take this summer, which I highly recommend to get your financial life together, I think that's a great, great thing that you can do. And how you can start is by downloading, taking a look at my free resource library and seeing how you can start taking some action. Another kind of new part of my website that I just made

is I made a recommendations page. So I get a lot of questions about what kind of books do you recommend? Or I want to work with a financial professional who isn't you. Who do you recommend? To be fair, I have a wait list going on, so I'm not accepting new clients. So I do like to refer out to other

people that I think are doing great jobs in the fee-only financial planning sphere. And also, I just get questions on like, what's a good no-fee bank, blah, blah, blah. So I made a new recommendations page, jessicamorels.com slash recommendations. You can find it very clearly on, you know, if you scroll down to the bottom of my homepage, or if you go onto, well, whatever page you're on, on my website, on the menu bar, the top menu bar, there's a kind of an option or tab resources. And that's where you can find, you know, my blog, podcast, resource library, community. And there's a new menu item called recommendations. And that's where you can find, you know, my blog podcast resource library community. And there's a new, uh, menu item called recommendations. And you can find all of the things that I either personally recommend or just lists of things that, uh, you know,

I'm happy to kind of share with you that I think are important. Some might like go to websites or whatever. Anyways, check it out. Um, also check out if this is the time of your life that you're like, I really want to take care of my investing situation or get started with investing. Don't know where to start? Well, that's why I built a course specifically for you called Investing Foundations for Canadians. I'm sorry, my American friends. Though, to be fair, I've had American students take it and almost all of it is applicable besides obviously me talking about TFSAs and RRSPs, but everything else is totally applicable to you if you're American. But I am going to be doing a special episode tomorrow, solo episode where I am answering your investing questions. These are the most common questions I

get by if I, you know, hear from you over email or social media, or if I'm doing an event or, you know, participating in someone else's event, people always like to talk to me about investing. And so I am answering the most pressing questions that I get each time. And I think you're going to enjoy it. But if you listen to the end of tomorrow's episode, I am going to be sharing a very special promo code so you can get 30% off my course. I'm not going to share it now because I'm going to be a little bit of a tease and sorry, you're going to be sharing a very special promo code so you can get 30% off my course. I'm not going to share it now because I'm going to be a little bit of a tease and sorry, you're going to have to listen to tomorrow's episode or just like wait till tomorrow and then like, you know, scroll down or like, what's it called? Fast forward, whatever it is to the end of the episode,

then you can get that code. Or you could probably guess what it is, but I don't know, whatever. So those are some important things I wanted to share with you. Even though I am, you know, you know, kind of capping off this season, I'm not going to be really away. I'm going to Hawaii, then going to Vancouver, and I'm going to be on social media and the gram and hopefully YouTube a lot more. And so I'll be around. I'll be around. And if ever you want to chat, hit me up on social media or shoot me an email. I always love that. But of course, I always really, really appreciate an iTunes review. Takes you two seconds to let me know what you think. And I'll give you a shout out on next season of the show. So I think that'd be pretty, pretty cool. Anyways, thanks so much for listening. I'm going to see you back here tomorrow for my last episode of season eight. Have a good rest of your day. See you tomorrow.

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