More Money Podcast - 216 Understanding Financial Abuse - Jana Lynch, Financial Abuse Awareness Advocate

Episode Date: November 27, 2019

I’ve been following Jana Lynch for years ever since she was a fellow personal finance blogger (now she is an editor at DollarSprout). And although we’ve crossed paths a number of times at previous FinCons, this year we finally got to spend some time together and I couldn’t help but feel inspired by her knowledge and passion for educating others about financial abuse. I knew I needed to have her on the show to share what she knew because for whatever reason in my 200+ podcast episodes, not once have I interviewed anyone about the very important topic of financial abuse. But what is financial abuse exactly? According to the Canadian Bankers Association, “Financial abuse occurs when someone tries to take or control what belongs to you for their own benefit, not yours.” Or, as per VeryWellMind, “Financial abuse involves controlling a victim’s ability to acquire, use, and maintain financial resources.” In other words, financial abuse may be hard to see from the outside but it can be just as dangerous and damaging as physical or verbal abuse. I’m going to share some articles and resources in the show notes for after you’ve listened to this episode. If you or someone you know is experiencing financial abuse, just know that there is help and don’t be afraid to seek it. Visit jessicamoorhouse.com/contests to enter to win a copy of one of the books featured on this season of the podcast! For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/216 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to episode 216 of the Mo Money Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show, or if you do, welcome. Anyway, thanks for joining me and choosing to listen to this little podcast that's just been around for four years and has over a million downloads. No big deal. I'm really excited. Excited is totally the wrong word. I'm proud, maybe that's a more appropriate word, of this episode of the podcast because I love talking about investing and how to be better at managing your money and couponing and stuff like that. I think those are important topics. But I also think that there's some other topics that I've never explored on the show that I'm really excited to explore now this season.

This particular episode is going to dive into the topics of financial abuse and financial infidelity, things that I've known about, but not to a very deep extent, I suppose. I haven't really worked with any clients that have dealt with this. I don't know really anyone in my personal life that has at least approached me and expressed that this is something that they're experiencing. That being said, it is a very real thing. Listening, I mean, chances are there are probably some listeners going to listen to this episode and they're like, that's me. That is me. Or that is my friend. That's my sister, my brother, my parents, whatever the case is. I think there's going to be some, I think this is going to really impact you regardless of where you're coming from.

And so this episode is really going to talk about what exactly is financial abuse? What are the signs, what are the red flags, and what can you do about it if you see someone in that type of relationship or you are in that type of relationship? And at the end of this episode, I'm also going to share some very important resources that if you want to learn more about this, if you need some help, here is where you can find all that information. So for this episode, I'm going to be talking to Jana Lynch. I've known her for a long time. She started blogging as a personal finance blogger back in 2011. So literally right when I kind of got into that world, I think I followed her on Twitter for the longest time. And it was only this past September that I feel like we actually got to hang out and really have some really great deep chats.

Currently, she still has her blog, but really what she's known for is she's a personal finance editor at Dollar Sprout, and this is why she's on the show. She's also a financial abuse awareness advocate. So very excited to have her on the show. She's also a financial abuse awareness advocate. So very excited to have her on the show. Before I dive into this interview with Jana, I just want to share a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Manulife Vitality. Did you know that 60% of deaths worldwide are caused by four things. Cardiovascular disease, diabetes, chronic lung disease, and cancer. And these are largely caused by lifestyle choices such as smoking, poor diet, alcohol, and physical inactivity. These are all choices that you are in control of. So why not make changes today to have a healthier tomorrow? Enter Manulife Vitality,

a first of its kind wellness program in Canada now available for all Manulife Cover Me health and dental plans. Manulife Vitality is meant to help Canadians live longer and healthier lives by providing personalized goals so you can improve your health and be rewarded along the way. How it works is simple. You track everyday activities like getting your steps in, working out at the gym, and getting regular physical checkups and dental screenings, and you get rewarded with points for your progress. The more engaged you are and the healthier your choices, the more points you can earn to redeem for Amazon gift cards, discounts at hotels.com,

and savings on your insurance premiums. Plus, you can get an Apple Watch for as little as $0. To learn more, visit coverme.com or manulife.ca slash vitality. Once again, that's coverme.com or manulife.ca slash vitality. Well, thank you, Jenna, for joining me on the show. I'm so excited to, well, it sounds weird to say, I'm so excited to chat with you about this topic because it's a very interesting and kind of a dark topic, but I think it's something that needs to be talked about. So I appreciate you joining me on the show to talk about it. I appreciate you having me because like you said, it is a dark topic. It's not a fun topic, but it's a really important topic.

It affects a lot more people than you would think. So I think it's important that people who have a big platform like you do discuss the issue and let more people know that financial abuse exists and what to look for and how you can help. Yeah, because honestly, before I met you, we started talking about this topic when we were hanging out at FinCon this year. I actually never really thought about financial abuse. It's never something that I've really come across. I knew it existed, but it's never something that I've personally experienced or really know anyone in my personal life that's experienced, unless they just haven't been open about that, which I'm sure why would someone want to be? It's kind of a hard topic to kind of talk about.

But before we kind of get into it, just so people have some background on you, where are you coming from and why have you kind of become kind of an advocate for financial abuse awareness? So I became, and I guess I'll start backwards. So I became an advocate for financial abuse awareness after seeing some people in my life who I care about experience it. And, you know, like you, it's one of those things that I was always acutely aware of, but I never knew the magnitude of it until I saw people go through it. And it is very hidden, and there's a lot of shame and stigma around it. And I think that's why we don't know how prevalent it is, because some of the signs of financial abuse can look just like the way a couple might manage their money. So I think that it's a very, it's, it's easy to, it's much easier to hide than other forms of domestic violence. As for me, my name is Jana

Lynch. I'm coming to you from Delaware. Yeah, very exciting home of no taxes. But so that's what we're most known for and being really business friendly. And but in my professional life, I'm actually a personal finance editor. I work currently for Dollar Sprout. And you've probably seen my work in some books or other blogs that you've read. That's, I guess, me in a nutshell. Yeah, well, I feel like you have been blogging for what seems like forever. Like for as long as I've been around, you've always been around. Like when did you start blogging?

And then because you have your own blog, but now you're also, you know, a freelance, you know, personal finance writer and editor. So I don't actually really blog anymore. I stopped blog anymore. I stopped blogging. I want to say I stopped blogging regularly. About three years ago, I went from like, you know, blogging all the time to a lot less frequently. And now it's like once a month. And it's rarely about money. It's usually about books. So when I started doing that, I started getting involved in our personal finance community in 2011. And I started transitioning more towards freelance writing and editing around, I guess, somewhere around 2015,

2016. I think that's kind of why I stopped blogging so regularly. It's hard to blog about and then freelance write and edit about the same topic. And for me, I wanted a difference or a split between like work and fun. So I sort of haven't picked back up the personal writing habit. No, I get it because you're writing a lot. Like for me, I think that's a big reason why I don't do a lot of freelance writing is because I find it's just too much. I do a lot of content creation about personal finance, but I think when it comes to writing, I find it just very involved and it's not my jam. So I'm like, I'd much rather just work on my blog than do a lot of freelance

writing. It's hard to do both, quite honestly. It's a lot of writing. It is. And I actually am an editor more than a writer. So occasionally you'll see like my name on like a byline or whatever. But primarily for the last two years, I've been editing. I really haven't done much writing. I did, however, this past May for the Plutus Foundation, write a series on financial abuse. So that was the first time in a while I had actually written original content for personal finance purposes. So let's get back to that topic since you mentioned writing some articles about it. Can you kind of describe specifically what exactly is financial abuse?

So financial abuse is essentially one partner using money as a form of power and control. And it's a way to exert their power in a relationship. It's a way to, you know, exactly what you would think about in an abusive situation. But instead of using violent, you know, actual physical violence or emotional abuse, they're using money. And that can take on a variety of forms. It's not just putting the other spouse on an allowance. It can be combing through credit card or bank statements and questioning purchases. It can be lying about money, hiding money, making expensive purchases without the other person knowing about it. It can be shaming their partner for spending money. It can be limiting their career options. Let's say you have a spouse who works, you know, both partners are working and

one has an opportunity for a promotion. The other, the abusive partner can, you know, work to make sure they don't get that promotion, however that might look, they can try and get them fired from their job. It can look like pressuring them into making financial decisions. So it takes on a lot of different forms. Yeah. And I feel like it's not so black and white because like you said earlier, some people, it may just look like, well, that's not financial abuse. This is how they choose to manage their money. That's just their relationship. That's just how they do their family finances. And also when you're outside of that relationship, because people, you know, typically don't want to be involved in someone else's relationship. It's like, how do you even get in, you know, be like, Hey friend, I don't know if this is, you know, right. I think you're being taken advantage of or being kind of abused financially

by your partner. Like how the hell do you get involved in that to try to help someone? That seems like a very weird thing to navigate. It's an extremely weird thing to navigate because unlike physical violence, where you see immediate danger with financial abuse, the immediate danger isn't always clear. And on top of that, you have the fact that people don't want to talk to still don't want to talk to each other about money. So it's this extra layer of stigma or taboo on top of it and feeling like, well, why are you up in my financial business? You don't need to do that. When I've had to approach people who I care about, who have been in that situation, I also had to approach people who I care about who have been in that situation. I also had to gauge my relationship with them. Sometimes if it's a more casual relationship, you have to walk a much different line than if it's someone you're very close with.

Whether that's your best friend, a family member, sibling, parent, cousin, you know, there's very different ways you can approach it based on your relationship with the person. I mean, if you're very, very close with someone, you might be able to sit down and be like, look, this is what I see is going on. Can we talk about it? Whereas with someone, you know, if it's just like a coworker or someone you might know from, say, a kid's sport or the PTA or book club or whatever, you want to more casually approach it. However you do it, you have to hold back your judgment, which I think is the most difficult part of helping someone through financial abuse. Yeah, because you don't want to come from, I guess, the point of view of, well, I'm doing it right, you're doing it wrong, because that never goes well. But even though

that's kind of what you think. Exactly. And then there's the part of you that's like, I would never let myself get into that situation. My partner, I would never let him or her, I never let them do that to me. How could you let them do that to you? We tend to put our values and our judgment and what we think we would do onto that person. And it's hard not to do that, but you really have to not do it. Otherwise, whatever you say will just bounce right off of them. So you kind of mentioned, oh, I would never get myself in that situation. How do people find themselves in these situations? Because I feel like it is kind of similar to say domestic

abuse relationships where a lot of yeah people will be like oh I'd never be stick with a guy who beat me or whatever it's like we're learning more especially in this me too movement that a lot of women are in these relationships and it's not because they're idiots it's not because they have no self-worth it's it's a weird they're get groomed. It's very complex. And a lot of people that you're like, I can't believe they're in that type of relationship. It's not like they walked into it with fully knowing what was going on. So what kind of happens to people that end up in these types of relationships? I'm assuming it's something that doesn't kind of come up at the beginning of the relationship, probably maybe sometimes not until they, you know, move in together or get married or kind of somehow commingle their money.

Yeah. So I think that's a really good question. And I think it has like, for me, it has like sort of three branches of answers. So the first one is, I think that it happens because it happens, it doesn't happen all at once. It's like, you know, the what is it, the frog in the pot or whatever, where like the water just starts boiling around them and they don't realize because it's just it's a gradual increase. I think people who are in those situations don't leave primarily out of fear because a lot of times financial abuse is coupled with emotional abuse, physical abuse, psychological abuse. So there's more at play and they're afraid to leave. In some of the situations I've seen, there's a lot of emotional abuse that goes on in conjunction

with the financial abuse. You know, the abuser telling the partner that you're too stupid to do this. You'll never be able to do this. This is too hard for you. You can't figure it out. I know what I'm doing. Let me handle it. The third part of your question is, I think in the beginning of a relationship, there's going to be red flags that this might happen. But, you know, as you said, you don't really know for sure until you're actually sharing finances, you know, red flags. And I think that that's the piece where we as supporters of people who are going through it as people with personal finance platforms, I think that's where we do people the most service by sort of talking about those red flags. And then the other piece of it is how do we how do we help people through it? So so I think some

of the red flags are you know what I said earlier about what does financial abuse look like like if you're first starting to date someone and they're being mean to you about how much money you might have spent on a haircut or if they if you pull out a credit card to pay for something and they start reprimanding you not in a hey maybe you should watch out for credit card, Dave Ramsey kind of thing, but like in a very rude, almost aggressive way, that might be a red flag if they're showing up unannounced at your work. You know, so I think that there's red flags in the beginning that sometimes people are like, oh, they just care about me.

He's showing up at my work because he wants to see me. She wants me to stop using my credit card because she cares about me being in debt. So I think that some of those red flags at the beginning could be good natured, but I think they're also warning signs. And you have to really take it based on the person you're in the relationship with and other signs that it could potentially be abuse rather than care. Yeah. It's funny that you mentioned red flags and just like are kind of, kind of got reactions to certain behaviors. And I think for, I recently listened to this other podcast, it sounds so cheesy, but I was listening to like Oprah's Super Soul and it was some episode about abuse and also just like, yeah, red flags and kind of fight or flight and

just how us humans are like the only animal on earth that when we know we're in danger, we won't immediately like run away or get out of the situation. We'll rationalize and we'll be like, oh no, it's not that bad. And then we'll end up in a bad situation because of that kind of logic. And so like you said, it is easier said than done for sure. But it's like, if you do recognize, hmm, that's odd, or my gut's telling me this isn't normal behavior, listen to that feeling. It probably isn't. You're probably right. It's rare when your initial instincts are wrong. Usually you'll just go back to like, I should have listened to myself when I knew something was off there. I 100% agree. Yeah. And you know,

once you're in a relationship, you know if this is right or wrong. And if you're not sure, I think one of the best things you can do is go to someone who you feel is in a financially healthy relationship and ask them questions. Things like, hey, you know, when you guys go to make a big purchase, you know, do you consult each other or do you have a limit on, you know, if it's a purchase below $100, you don't have to consult with each other, but above $100, you know, just a text or a quick call, make sure it's okay. You know, a lot, big thing with financial abuse is putting the other person on an allowance. But, you know, some financially healthy couples, that's what they do.

They get, you know, they pay their bills together and then they get a spending allowance. You know, you know what's healthy and what's not. And if you're not sure, ask people you believe are in a financially solid relationship what they're doing. Most people, I think, are happy to answer questions. I don't think they want to necessarily come out and talk about it. But I think that they're happy to talk in generalities. And if you ask them questions, and you say, hey, you know, I think maybe this isn't right. You know, you and your partner seem to have it under control. Can I ask you guys what you do? And I guess, because you mentioned the allowance thing, and this does kind of go back into like,

is this a money management strategy or is this abuse? Which again, kind of a weird blurry line. But I guess what you're talking about is if your partner's like, you are on an allowance, I'm not, that would be abuse. Whereas a money management strategy, like, you are on an allowance. I'm not. That would be abuse. Whereas a money management strategy, like we're both on an allowance. We know exactly how much we're both going to spend. We're going to talk about it openly. This is a strategy. That's not abuse. Right.

I think that's a very important distinction. If it's one partner telling the other partner, you're going to do this, but I'm not, or I have access to all the money and you don't. Those are huge signs that it's ripe for financial abuse. And I need to point out that primarily in financial abusive relationships, the person who is the primary income winner is the abuser. However, the breadwinner can also be the person who's being abused. It's not nearly as common. And I don't know statistics or anything, but it is possible for the lower income earning partner to abuse the higher income earning partner. And it looks a little bit different. It looks different, but it also looks the same. Some of the same behaviors, but other ones are like going through their wallet at the end of

the day to see if the cash that they think should be in there is in there. Hovering at the checkout lines, like picking apart their purchases, stealing their bank password. So it can work both ways. So I don't want people to think that, oh, I'm the primary income earner. I could never be abused because it can happen. So if your lower income earning partner is exhibiting some of those signs that we talked about, you might want to think about some things. Yeah, no, for sure. And I feel like I've actually seen that in my own, not like me, but like people I know more than the other kind of scenario, because I have seen it where,

you know, some amazing people that are, you know, have a great career and earning money. And then they have a partner who is just kind of a slacker, just hanging out at home and kind of a mooch, really. And I'm like, some people will be like, oh, he's just lazy. I'm like, or he's kind of, yeah, being kind of financially abusive if he's like basically making his partner go to work and make all the money and you know he or she isn't doing a thing like that is also for you know and as a partner it's like it's hard to get your you know be like hey can you like that's another yeah that's i've seen that a little bit more prevalent and it's it's tricky when you see it because again it's like how do you bring that up and how do you not just call your partners or your friend's partner lazy or whatever, because they'll just make an excuse. Oh, no, he just lost his job. He just hasn't found anything yet. It's like, well, I've seen that where they've never found anything. So but yeah, so it's good to like, yeah, realize these come in very lots of different sized packages. Yeah, financial abuse is definitely not a one size fits all like there's some and like I said, you know, before sometimes, you know, in the in the instance that

you described, it could be someone the partner is, you know, lost their job. And now they're at home. But the couple has decided, okay, this person is going to stay the primary breadwinner. And now this one is going to more be the stay at home parent role if there are kids involved, or they're going to take care of all the household responsibilities. So the other person has an easier time when they're at work. It's not always like a quote unquote deadbeat situation, even though from the outside looking in, it could be that way. And that's why I think financial abuse gets really tricky because we're not in another person's home to see the dynamics. We can only look at signs and have conversations. And a lot of times when you first approach a person about it, they might get very defensive.

I think they don't want to admit that that's something that their partner is doing. No, I completely agree. I feel like, yeah, if you wanted to talk to your friend about it, you're going to get some resistance. They're not gonna be like, Oh, really? I never thought about that way. It's like, they want to, especially if you're in a marriage where you're committed, and you know, you really don't want to get divorced, you don't want to deal with that. You don't want to acknowledge that because that just will completely rock your whole life and your whole world. Yes, you're right. Divorce can rock your world, especially, you know, even, you know, kids involved, it makes it even worse because of the dynamics that have been set up financially. But I think that there's an important distinction we need to make here in a committed relationship between financial abuse and financial infidelity. I think sometimes

those things get commingled and there are overlapping signs, but the intent is very different. I think the intent of financial infidelity, it's more of like you're ashamed, you're being sneaky, you know, you might have a problem. You know, there could be like an addiction at play, whereas, you know, with financial abuse, it is primarily about power and control. So those are very important distinctions that if you have a spouse who's lying to you about money, what's the underlying cause of that?

I feel like that's probably also people will recognize that more in either their relationship or a friend's, the financial infidelity. Because again, I feel like we all know somebody who's like, oh yeah. I remember talking to, I mean, this was years ago this person i knew and um she was kind of running a side business and didn't tell her husband at all so she was like getting money and like free gifts and products and stuff from brands kind of like you know being doing a little influencer stuff and she would get all this you know products sent to her house that she shared with her husband and he would ask like oh what's she's like, oh, don't worry about it. And when she told me this, I'm like, and he's cool with that answer? My husband would be like, no, like, seriously, what is that?

You can't send packages to your, it would get packages in your name to her house and not explain what it is. I thought that was so weird. And yeah, sadly, they are divorced now. Not because of that, but it's like, okay, I feel like if that is a thing that you're doing in your relationship, there's some problems probably. Because why wouldn't you want to just be like, oh, it's this? Yeah. If that's happening, there are some other underlying problems. There are some other issues. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that... And then the other thing with financial infidelity and financial abuse is if you are trying to get out of a financially abusive relationship, a lot of the things that you need to do look like financial infidelity, opening a credit card in your own name, having a bank, a hidden bank account, starting to put together all the documents that you might need, copies of your,

you know, driver's license, marriage license, social security card, you know, all of those kinds of things, you know, copies of any assets you own, any income you have, any debts that you have that are in both of your names. But doing it in like a clandestine manner looks like financial infidelity. But the difference is you're when you're trying to do when you're doing those activities to remove yourself from a financially abusive relationship or a physically emotionally abusive relationship, you're doing it for your own self preservation and protection. You're not doing it necessarily to be dishonest and hide things from your partner in a healthy relationship. So I think that, you know, that's an important

distinction to make. And sometimes, you know, we don't want to do that kind of stuff. Like we don't want to be sneaky. We know how it feels to have someone do it to us and we don't want to do it to somebody else. But you have to do it. If you're like, I need to get out. And part of that means you need money because I think that's a big reason too why a lot of people stay in abusive relationships is they don't have the means to get away. And so I guess the same would be especially for a financial abuse. If you realize, I want to get out of this. This isn't a healthy relationship. And I don't have my own bank account. I don't have any money. I don't earn any money because maybe I'm at a stay-at-home parent. What do I do?

I guess you just have to kind of like, what would be the first step if you realize you're in a financial abusive relationship and you want to get out and you don't have any power? How do you go about that? So I think that even if you're not earning any income currently, you still do have financial power over your own life. And you can start doing that you can start taking some of that power back by, you know, as I said, like, doing all the things that you know, we just talked about that look sneaky and feel uncomfortable. But that's the

first thing you can do open your own, you know, open your own bank account and see if you can apply for your own credit card, you know, That's a way for you to have some resources. I know that I shouldn't be advocating for credit cards and credit card debt and all that kind of stuff. But when it comes to your own safety and protection, I think some debt's okay. No, I say if it's an emergency and you need to have accessible credit, no, I agree. You need to... And also it's like good to, well, another thing I recently heard, this is sort of a tangent, but, um, but it is kind of a form of, uh, financial abuse is sadly there's a lot of, you know, human trafficking in the world.

And also it was discovered there's like a lot of these fancy condos in Toronto actually are housing like human trafficking. Um, and one of the things that these, um, pimps, no better word to call them, um, do is they will, uh, apply for credit cards in their like girl's name and totally just like, uh, destroy their credit score and stuff. So that's another thing that I'm sure a could happen in a financially abusive relationship, but B you need to kind of take ownership.. You need to do what you can do to kind of improve that situation. Yeah. And that tangent actually is an important point because one thing you can do is pull your credit report and look through it and see if you know all the

information on it. If there's been accounts open in your name that you don't know about and you need to go speak to a lawyer. Another thing that you can do to sort of start taking, I guess, control of your situation is create a resume. If you don't have one, if you haven't been working, if you've been a stay at home parent for 15 years, go back through and see if there's, you know, what have you done for your kids or what have you done in the home? Like even if you've organized, you know, yard sales, you know, you can figure out a way to manipulate that onto, you know, skills for a resume. You know, that's another thing that you can do. And just make a list of all your skills and all the things that you've done. If you were president of the PTA for four years, there you go. That's something you can write down.

And then you can ask a friend to look over it and help you put it into an actual resume so you can start applying for jobs. I guess the other kind of element too is if you're doing all of this, you want to make sure that your partner at home doesn't find out. So would the best kind of situation be like, use a friend's, like don't bring that stuff at home because he may or she may discover it? In the situations I have seen, that is what I have recommended. Do it somewhere else. Store it in like a Google Drive that they can't access.

Don't store it on, if you share a computer, don't store it, you know, store it somewhere where they can't access. Don't store it on, if you share a computer, don't store it, you know, store it somewhere where they can't access it. There are some things you can do to take steps. You can consult a lawyer. A lot of websites like Purple Purse, they have a lot of really good resources. And there's actually a panic button. So if your partner comes into the room where you're working, you can, you know, it's like a quick escape. You can look into if there's any support groups in your area for domestic violence, that might be a good place to go. And again, you're going to probably have to lie and hopefully you have your own car without a location tracker on it. So, I mean, abusers can go pretty far. Yeah, it's incredible how, yeah, kind of meticulous you have to be to kind of disconnect, like just, you know, make sure that they can't track you on your phone and stuff like that.

Yep. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Turn that stuff off. The other thing is if there are children involved, start gathering documents on them. Check your beneficiaries. If you have life insurance, who are your beneficiaries? You know, those kinds of things. You're going to say it now. Understand that this takes time. This isn't something that you can fix overnight. The damage that's done by financial abuse is deep and it's very multi-layered and very multifaceted. And there's a lot of emotional stuff that goes along with it. There's a lot of guilt that comes from the survivor. Like, you know, how did I let this happen to me? Why is this happening to me? What did I do wrong? Maybe they were right. Like maybe you do leave and you go to file your taxes for the first time on your own and you're very overwhelmed and you don't know what to do. Or you go to buy a car for the first time on your own and you're very overwhelmed and you don't know what to do. And it almost validates what your abuser told you that you can't do it. You are too stupid to do it.

And it's not a reflection of your intelligence. It's a reflection of what they wrongly told you. And for us, as people who are supporting those who are going through it or getting out of it, we have to be their emotional support. We have to sort of be their cheerleader in a sense of, you know, you can do this. I believe in you. You know, go with them to look at that car, help them file their taxes, look over their resume, you know, be there for them to make them realize that what they were told isn't true and they are more capable than they think they are. Absolutely. Because as I mean, I've been doing this for a while, but the reason that I got into

personal finance is because I realized actually it's not as hard as people say it is. So it's hard obviously coming out of that kind of financially abusive relationship where for years, if not like decades, someone's been telling you, you're too stupid. You wouldn't understand. This is why I'm taking control to understand. Oh no, I do understand. I can learn this stuff. I can take control. But at the end of the day, that's true. Like that's why I have this podcast because money isn't that hard to understand how to manage, but it's like you said, it's not an overnight thing. Like for me, it's taken years for me to really build up this financial confidence. So don't, uh, don't, you know, be too hard on yourself. I like that term. I this financial confidence. So don't, don't, you know, be too

hard on yourself. I like that term. I like financial confidence. I like that a lot. Because when you're coming out of like this kind of that's what you need, you need belief in yourself that you can you can do it, you can manage your own money, you can pay your own bills, you can invest, you can save for retirement, You can find a job. Like, you know, that's a great term for it. And when you've been financially and emotionally abused, it's not a it's not a fault of yours. It's a fault of your abusers. Like there's something wrong with them. There's not something wrong with you. You did nothing wrong. And the other thing is everyone makes mistakes with money and that's okay. And so

the long, you know, the process of taking control and basically undoing all the learning, the wrong learning that you've been given for however many years you've been in this relationship, it's, you're still going to make mistakes and that's okay. None of us, I think, would be talking about personal finance if we hadn't made mistakes, kind of like I made these mistakes so you don't have to, but financial abuse is just its own beast that's very different than I had a credit card spending problem. And for some abusers, that's actually the trigger for why they decide to take control. But again, you know, like I keep saying, you have to look at the motivation behind it. Absolutely. So you mentioned one resource called Purple Purse. Is there any other resources that you could share kind of top of mind if someone wants to look more into this?

So I actually wrote down. So in the US, the two biggest ones, in addition to like, you know, reaching out to like local domestic violence shelters, women's organizations that might have resources like the YWCA, there's a Purple Purse and the National Network to End Domestic Violence. In Canada, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on these names, because, you know, the internet isn't always reliable. There's something called the Family Violence Initiative that has some resources that I saw. And then believe it or not, the Canadian Bankers Association. Actually, yes, I have a link I wrote down here that had an article about financial abuse. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a really, it's a really good article too. So, um, from the, I don't know specifically in Canada, like organizations, like I know in the U.S. I'll find some and I'll tell, yeah, I'll find some.

I'm sure like those two places are good places to start. Well, thank you so much, Jana, for joining me and talking about this kind of difficult topic. There's not a lot of people that I would even know to talk about this so openly, and you know so much. So I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me about it. Oh, I appreciate you being willing to discuss it. Oh, one more resource. Yeah. Bitches Get Riches has a phenomenal, probably one of the best articles I've ever read on the topic. If you want to know what financial abuse is and like just the basics, their post on it is phenomenal.

I cannot, I think everyone needs to read this article that they've written. Okay, I will link to that in the show notes. That sounds amazing. Yeah. And then, you know, like I said, at the very beginning, I did write a series on financial abuse for the Plutus Foundation. And actually in that series, there is a survivor story. So I think a big thing is if you're going through it, know that you can come out on the other side and there are people who can speak to it. The story is anonymous, but it's very important, I think, for people to read as well. Well, thanks. Thanks so much again, Jenna., for people to read as well. Well, thanks. Thanks so much again, Jana.

It was a pleasure chatting with you. Thanks. And thanks again for having me. And that was episode 216 with Jana Lynch. So just to kind of reiterate some, because I know we kind of ended the episode talking about a few resources. I also want to share a few others

that I think may be helpful if you want to learn more or need some help. There is the Battered Women Support Services website. They have a lot of great resources, like a huge ton of them, specifically about financial abuse. She, of course, mentioned Purple Purse. The Allstate Foundation has a lot of information and videos on this as well that you can check out. And there is, I see because I'm on the website right now, there is a button called safety exit. And that's, you're kind of like, Oh, someone's coming. I need to exit quickly. Um, there's also the assaulted women's it's a whl.org assaulted women's helpline that has a bunch of, uh,

important information and links and phone numbers. And of course, um, uh, you know, phone number, if you want to speak to someone there's actually a lot and we also mentioned the canadian bankers association they do have uh i just googled basically uh financial views canada and a ton of great resources came up including this article that he found on the canadian bankers association i'm going to link some of these resources and some more on the show notes. So just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 216 to find out all of that information. I have some things to share with you, so do not go away. I just want to share a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Manulife Vitality. What's your vitality age? I just checked mine at vitalityage.ca

and discovered I've got a vitality age of 32. Not bad considering I'm 33. You see, your vitality age is an indication of your overall health. And depending on your daily lifestyle choices, it could be higher or lower than your actual age. To get more people thinking about their overall health, Manulife is expanding its Manulife Vitality Wellness Program to help you understand how to improve your health and give you that extra bit of accountability and motivation you've been looking for. Available on all Cover Me health and dental plans, the program works so that the more engaged you are and the healthier choices you make, the more points you can earn towards earning Amazon gift cards, discounts at hotels.com, and savings on insurance premiums. Plus, you can get an Apple Watch for as little as $0. To learn

more, visit coverme.com or manulife.ca slash vitality. Once again, that's cover me.com or manulife.ca slash vitality. First, I have a bonus episode for you tomorrow. So yay, two podcast episodes in one week. So you may remember if you've been listening all season long, you may remember the episode I did with Gina Chaski not too long ago. We talked about women in finance, but we also talked about specifically healthcare and health insurance in mainly the US because she's based out of the US. Very important information if you're based out of the US, definitely make sure to listen to that because a lot of great information she shared. It's episode 207. So you can either, if you're on iTunes, you can just find it there, easy peasy, or you can go to my website, jessicamorehouse.com

slash 207. But tomorrow I am going to be talking more specifically about health insurance and health care in Canada, because it's embarrassing. But most of us Canadians actually don't know a heck of a lot about health insurance and health care in Canada, because we're like, I don't know, it's like free or something, or taxes pay for it. But you may not actually know what you're covered for and what you're not covered for. I probably know more than the average person because I'm self-employed and I do not have the luxury of, you know, getting health benefits for them through my employer anymore. And so this is something that I think about a lot. I have, I have to spend my own money on, you know, certain things like dental care and eye care and all this kind of stuff. So you're not

going to want to miss tomorrow's episode. Um, I I think, teased on last week's episode that I recently did my Millennial Money Meetup in Toronto, number six, very exciting. If you were not able to come or if you did come, but you want to hear the recording of the panel discussion, which you're going to want to, it's amazing. Well, that is going to go live next week. So you can look out for that on like December 5th is what I'm thinking it's going to go up. There's also a video so you can check that out on my YouTube channel that will hopefully be ready at the same time as that. And basically we I can't believe what day it is. It's basically the end of november i've got like two more weeks of the podcast after this and then i'm on hiatus for maybe about a month to uh just chill christmas time hanging

out with the family hanging out with my baby niece is so cute and i just want to squish her cheekies and uh obviously obviously prepping for next season which get get, get this guys, season 10. That's crazy. In 2020, I will be launching season 10 of the Mo Money podcast. It's, I don't understand how this happened. I'm super excited about it. It's gonna be great. So looking forward to that. So that is really it. All I've got to say until tomorrow, which I'll sing back here tomorrow. Have a good rest of your day. I hope you really enjoyed this episode as much as I did. And yeah, take care of yourself. See you tomorrow, bright and early.

This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.