More Money Podcast - 218 The Link Between Behaviour & Investing - Dr. Daniel Crosby, Author, Psychologist & Behavioural Finance Expert

Episode Date: December 4, 2019

Learning how to invest isn’t just figuring out the difference between stocks and bonds, choosing between being a passive or active investor, or deciding to hire an investment professional, going with a robo-advisor or doing DIY investing. Investing is so much more than that. Why? Because we’re humans, not robots or computers. Emotions and behaviour dictate so much about why the stock market goes up and down and what decisions we end of making. Which is why I’ve got Dr. Daniel Crosby on the show who recently authored the book The Behavioral Investor. In this episode we talk about what the 4 behavioural risks that crush your investment returns: Ego – We believe we are special and succumb to confirmation bias. Conversativsm – We like to stick to things we know and thus tend to hold on to losing positions. Attention – We pay too much attention stories put out by the media or our personal networks, and not enough to stats and simple math. Emotion – We tend to let our emotions control our decisions and ignore logic. We also discuss some helpful ways to combat these behaviours: Ego – Diversify, don’t fall into the trap of investing too much of your portfolio into your home country. Conservatism – Create a rule-based system for investing and stick to it. Attention – Stop listening to the noise and get focused. Sometimes the simplest solution is also the best solution. Emotion – Meditate and stop and think. Also having a barrier such as using dollar-cost averaging, automated contributions and working with an advisor could help so you don’t have too easy access to your money. There are many more gems in his book so make sure to buy a copy. Also, visit jessicamoorhouse.com/contests to enter to win a copy of his book too. For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/218 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the Momany Podcast. This is episode 218, and I am your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show, or welcome to the show if you're a new listener. I just have a few episodes left in this season, season nine of the podcast, but I've got to tell you, I've got some great episodes for you, and I cannot wait to share all of them, especially this one. This one, I absolutely love. You're going to love it too. I have a lot of guests on the show to talk about investing because honestly, I get a

ton of questions about investing. I don't know. Well, maybe I do understand why so many people have so many questions about investing. It seems like that kind of one big hurdle that seems impossible to kind of overcome. Sometimes it seems too complex and hard to get started. So I have a lot of guests on the show to talk about how do we get started? What does investing look like? What's a good strategy? Love those episodes. But there's a really important element to investing that I haven't had a guest on to specifically talk about. And I am talking about behavioral economics or the psychology that has to do with money

and investing. Because, well, if you're an investor like myself, or even if you're not, and you've had a hard time getting the courage or confidence to start investing, guess what? There's a lot to do with mindset and psychology and behavior in that. And that is why I have Dr. Daniel Crosby on the show. He is a psychologist and behavioral finance expert. He has a number of amazing books that you should check out. His first one was Personal Benchmark, Integrating Behavioral Finance and Investment Management. It was a New York Times bestseller. His second book, The Laws of Wealth, was named the best investment book of 2017 by the Axiom Business Book Awards and has been translated into five languages. And he's out with a new book

called The Behavioral Investor. It's a comprehensive look at the neurology, physiology, and psychology of sound financial decision making. So we are going to dive right into this topic. I know you're going to love it. I think a lot of things are going to hit home for you because while talking, I'm like, yep, that's me. I've definitely experienced that. So you're going to really love this episode with Daniel. But before I get to that interview with him, I just have a few words to share about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Manulife Vitality. Did you know that 60% of deaths worldwide are caused by four things? Cardiovascular disease, diabetes, chronic lung disease, and cancer. And these are largely caused by lifestyle choices such as smoking, poor diet,

alcohol, and physical inactivity. These are all choices that you are in control of. So why not make changes today to have a healthier tomorrow? Enter Manulife Vitality, a first-of-its-kind wellness program in Canada now available for all Manulife Cover Me health and dental plans. Manulife Vitality is meant to help Canadians live longer and healthier lives by providing personalized goals so you can improve your health and be rewarded along the way. How it works is simple. You track everyday activities like getting your steps in, working out at the gym, and getting regular physical checkups and dental screenings, and you get rewarded with points for your progress. The more engaged you are and the

healthier your choices, the more points you can earn to redeem for Amazon gift cards, discounts at Hotels.com, and savings on your insurance premiums. Plus, you can get an Apple Watch for as little as $0. To learn more, visit CoverMe.com or Manulife.ca slash Vitality. Once again, that's CoverMe.com or Manulife.ca slash Vitality. Thank you so much, Daniel, for joining me on the Mo Money Podcast. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to have you on the show because surprisingly, after over 200 episodes,

I haven't had an expert to talk to me about behavioral finance, which is becoming, I'd say, more and more talked about, more popular. Still, there aren't a ton of people that dedicate their whole careers to that, which you obviously are the expert on it. So you just came out with a book called The Behavioral Investor. I have several other bestselling books about this. And you're a psychologist and a behavioral finance expert. So if I wanted to talk to someone about this topic, you would clearly be the person to do so. Yeah. There's a couple handfuls of us. But yeah, it's funny. I told someone on a plane, a woman I sat next to on a plane asked me what I did. And I told her and she's like, that's not a real job. And so there's few of us that people don't even recognize it as a real job. Oh my gosh. So you have a doctorate, you're a psychologist. How

did you become kind of focused on behavioral finance specifically? Well, it's interesting. My dad is a financial advisor. And so I think the seed was planted long ago. I grew up around the dinner table, you know, talking about how to evaluate stocks and how to invest in the power of, you know, watching your money grow. So I grew up sort of steeped in it in that respect. But, you know, like you said, I entered school to be a clinical psychologist and indeed my degree is in clinical psychology. But really the long story short is I just burned out on doing clinical work. I just, you know, the prospect of having to talk to, you know, 40 or 50 people each week who were just having such a hard time was, was

wearing on me as well. Um, I was really taking my work home with me. It was stressing me out quite a bit and I just found it difficult to be as engaged as I needed to be. And so I said, you know, I love human behavior. I love psychology. I love thinking about why people do the things that they do, but, but I need to find a sort of a non-clinical, less stressful way to apply these, this interest. And, you know, long story short, found my way to this weird little part of the world. And it's been, been a fantastic career. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's, it's so fascinating because I think, especially when we're talking about investing, it's like, you cannot talk about how to invest or what you should know about investing without talking about behavior, which I think is a very important element, but missing element that a lot of people

just like, I don't know, just kind of skate on by after and they just don't pay any attention to, which I think is a very big mistake because you're not really, you're just talking about it in theory. You're not talking about it in practicalities or, you know, taking action on it. And I've definitely experienced it. I see other people investing and I can see those behaviors. So I kind of want to dive into, can we just define, if anyone's never heard of the term behavioral finance, what the hell does that mean? Yeah. So here's what the hell it means. It's the art of investing that accounts for human behavior, right? So a lot of the traditional theories of investment management, theories of

econometrics, all define humans or account for humans as acting in entirely rational, predictable ways. And of course, we know that that's not true. You don't have to observe your own behavior or the behavior of those around you for very long, especially around money to know that we don't act in perfectly rational, predictable ways. So behavioral finance is basically just finance that tries to account for the messiness of the human element. That's all it is really. Yeah. And so this isn't something, you know, I think a lot of people have the idea that if you, you know, are like a finance expert or an advisor or someone who has a lot of experience that this isn't something that, you know, you have to worry about. It's just for people that don't know what

they're doing. But really, this is a problem for everybody because we're all human. Yeah. What's so fascinating to me is it just like, just like so many things, you can know the right things to do and then, you know, not do them. You know, I wrote a blog post a while back about driving by the hospital and driving by the hospital and seeing 13 doctors and nurses out in their scrubs smoking in front of the hospital. And you're like, what? If anybody knows about the dangers, the medical dangers of smoking, it's a doctor or a nurse. And yet here's all these people doing it. We find the same thing with investment professionals, actually. The research is pretty unequivocal that people who

work with a professional do better than those who don't. So there's, there's lots of evidence that, you know, you working with an accountant or an advisor can have some really beneficial elements to your life, but that those professionals make poor decisions with their own money. And so like oftentimes, even, you know, even if we're a pro, we're in a position to help other people make good choices, but the decisions that we make are suboptimal. You see this all the time with nutrition, you know, you see this in love and romance, you know, you're able to give your friends clear eyed advice about who they should date, and yet your own dating life is a mess. This is just yet another sort of domain in which

behavior is way more important than knowledge. And so what are some of, I guess, the behaviors that in your research, in talking to so many people, what are some of these very common behaviors you see with investors? Yeah. So what I did in the behavioral investors, I took the universe of, call it investor misbehavior, which is like 177 different biases and sort of cognitive shortcuts that I found in the literature. And I looked at them and I said, you know, what are sort of the common psychological tendencies that undergird all these nearly 200 ways that you can screw up your, you know, your financial life. And I shook out four that I thought were highly predictive that covered a lot of the waterfront. And so they were ego, emotion, attention, and conservatism. So

you can talk about them, you know, however much you want, but ego is basically overconfidence. Emotion is just what it sounds like, the tendency to go with sort of the heart over the head when making financial decisions. Attention is this idea that things that are scary or lurid or sexy or different kind of stick out to us more than they should. And so we make decisions basically not around how likely something is, but how lurid it is or how sensational it is. And then conservatism is this tendency to just confuse things that we know with things that are safe or to, to sort of ride with the status quo. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, when I was going through your book and looking at those, I'm like,

yep, I, those are all very familiar to me. I feel like the one that probably gets the most attention is emotion. People, um, talk about that all day long about how, uh, when you're investing, it is actually more emotional than people realize. Cause it's like, well, it's your money. It could be potentially your future happiness or it could be your retirement. And so a lot of people, I see this specifically too with millennials, which is surprising because we're a younger generation. However, I see because of the emotion part of it, a lot of millennials are afraid to even start investing because of fear and just all these, you know, they just can't, you know, they're just like stuck basically. They're almost paralyzed. And so they just don't start, which is what I'm trying to help people, like hopefully having this podcast and having people like you on to help them kind of get over that fear. So do you want

to talk a little bit more about that emotion behavior? What's involved? Maybe some people will be able to identify some characteristics that they're like, oh yeah, that's me. Yeah. So first I want to speak to sort of the importance of the service that you're providing here by helping people get started. You know, that's actually related to one of the other biases I mentioned, which is conservatism. And, you know, a tendency we have is to, you know, an object at rest tends to stay in rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion. And so, you know, someone who's investing tends to keep investing and someone who's not started tends to keep not starting, right? And so it's funny that we can take these biases that sound bad on their face, right?

Like this tendency to be prone to the status quo. And if we're smart about it, we can make them work in our favor. We can listen to your podcast, we can get started and we can lock that in place so that, you know, this tendency to be prone to the status quo can actually work for us. But, you know, to your emotion question, it's tricky for us to overcome because, you know, a lot of what I talk about in the book is some of the evolutionary roots of the behaviors we observe in modern day investors. And emotion was really our first, you know, risk tolerance questionnaire, you tolerance questionnaire back thousands of years ago before there were formal ways to assess risk. Your gut was the best thing you had.

And in many parts of life, your gut can lead you to the right place. And yet investing in particular, we're not very set up for it because your gut is reliable when you get rapid feedback and when that feedback is easy to sort of break down. Markets aren't like that. You know, you could buy Apple stock today and you couldn't really say for years and years and years whether or not that was a good decision. Right. Because, you know, it might go down today and you go, oh, well, that was dumb good decision, right? Because it might go down today and you go, oh, well, that was dumb. Well, maybe not. It might be up 300% in two or three years. You just don't know. And so the way that capital markets work, the way that investing works,

emotion doesn't tend to be a very good indicator. But there's a lot of reasons why evolutionarily we still want to fall back on emotion because it does work other places. Yeah, no, definitely. And I want to talk a little bit more about conservatism because that's not something that I've really heard about, but it did make a lot of sense. So I was watching this video and researching you and someone made a video reviewing your book in depth, which I thought was very interesting. And they're talking about that conservatism can kind of look like we prefer either the devil we know or we tend to hold on to losing positions because we're still very familiar with that position. We're like, well, maybe it'll go back up.

Do you want to kind of talk a little bit more about what conservatism can look like so people can identify it when they're doing it? Yeah, there's a couple of good examples, right? So one is what's an investing called home country bias. So I'll pick on the US because I'm American. You have the same thing here in Canada, that's for sure. Oh, I lived in Canada for three months a couple of years ago, and I lived in Western Canada and had the time of my life. And I definitely saw the same thing in Calgary that I observed here, but I'm not Canadian and I would never pick on Canada. So Canadians are too friendly. They would just, you know, they would take the good natured ribbing in stride. So I will pick on the US of A

instead, since that's where I'm from. So America makes up about half of the worldwide equity market. So if you look at the size of all the stocks in the world, about half of them come from the US. And yet the average American investor tends to have about 85% of their equity exposure to US stocks. Now, the US is actually the least dramatic example because it's the biggest stock market in the world. If you look at Canada, which I'm not picking on Canada, but Canada is about 4% of the world equity market. And so if you're a Canadian and you're holding, again, 60%, 70%, 80% Canadian stocks, you actually have a very, very limited exposure to the worldwide market. But the reason you're doing that is because it feels safe. You go, Oh, you know, I know RBC,

I know Scotiabank, you know, I know all these, all these companies, because I see the billboards, and I'm, you know, I know someone who works there. So it feels safer. But what you're actually doing is not giving yourself broad enough exposure. And we even see this regionally within the US, parts of the country that have a heavy exposure to agriculture. People in the Midwest tend to be overweight farming stocks. People in the Northeast, where there's a lot of financial hubs tend to be overweight financial stocks. And this is really like double and triple loading risk because if you live in New York, your housing is already tied to the financial sector. Your job is tied to the financial sector. Now you're going to be overweight financials in your holdings too. You've basically triple loaded the deck because it feels safe, because you know it. So we really have to fight this tendency to buy what we know. And in a weird way, buying what you don't know is better advice than just loading up on the stuff you're familiar with. It feels like lots of the advice we've gotten in the past is like, do what you know or buy what

you know. So you're just like, that may not actually make sense when it comes to investing. Yeah. I coined this phrase, Wall Street bizarro world in my previous book, The Laws of Wealth. And I just talk about all the ways in which the best investing advice makes no sense in any other context. You know, an easy example is, you know, is activity. You know, if you want to get more fit, you should spend more hours in the gym. If you want to get smarter, you should, you know, spend more time with your nose in a book. But across 19 different countries, in every country that's ever been studied, the more you trade, the worse you do. And so in every other place in your life, if you want more of a good thing, you need to invest more time in it. And investing, you just need to go away. It's a weird,

weird piece of advice to try and follow though. Yeah. And I recently also saw that there was a video online of you doing a keynote for FinCon 2014. I think I was there, but I can't remember. It seems like a little while ago, but I go to FinCon like every year. And it was fascinating because you did talk about a lot of this stuff, but you talked about what really kind of hit home is people have an issue with the idea that investing, like, you know, kind of like a smart way to invest is very, very simple. It's not overcomplicated. You don't need to make that many trades.

You just invest in index-based products and you'll probably hit your targets. But a lot of people just, you know, it's very simple information. They have a really hard time digesting that and believing that. Why is that? Well, you know, we think that a complex dynamic system like the stock market needs to be met with an equal level of complexity. But that's, you know, again, not the case. So if you go back to your statistics class from college and you think about this concept of overfitting, you know, the more variables you have, if you regress them all against each other, and I mean, the stock market has effectively

infinite number of variables that impact, you know, everything from, you know, weather to every, you know, weather to all the economic indicators to, you know, the health of a citizenry and everything in between. If you regress these thousands and thousands of variables against each other, you're going to get lots of sort of stuff that looks important. That's just screwy and unimportant. So there's a great, you know, there's a great example. There's a 96% correlation between the production of butter in Bangladesh and moves in the US stock market. It's just the total statistical artifact. But if you were trying to approach this from the level of complexity, you find stuff like that that's meaningless. Meanwhile, simple approaches like taking a

multi-asset class approach, keeping your fees in check, not being overactive, something like that, you're going to beat 90% of the hedge fund gurus with their million dollar computers. It's a very, again, it's Wall Street bizarro world that less is more. Yeah. And I feel like I also come, I talk to lots of other finance experts or, you know, go to events and people that work in finance. And there's almost this idea, and I think this probably falls into the ego category, where they have this idea of like, oh yeah, you know, index investing or, you know, just keep it kind of simple is great for like the average person, but I'm not average. I'm an expert. I'm advanced level. And so that means things are a bit more complicated. Is that probably what the ego thing is probably

about? Yeah, well, it is interesting. So if taken to its extreme, if everyone indexed, indexing would cease to work, right? Like if everyone indexed, indexing would cease to be valuable. And so you hear criticisms like that, which are true in theory, but I'm not very worried about them in practice because of overconfidence, because there are still so many people out there who are like, nope, I can beat this. I can do better. You know, I need to be more active. I'm going to keep my, you know, my finger on the pulse of this. And so, you know, that's not wrong. I mean, you do need some level of active management to serve as a price discovery mechanism. People who are actively trading and even shorting stocks do a service to keep markets robust. But those of us who are not

that interested in that can kind of get a free lunch by just diversifying, keeping our costs down and letting other folks bang their head into that wall. And you can do quite well and not work very hard at it. Yeah, that's kind of my thinking too. Because yeah, I hear that argument all the time. It's like, well, if everyone indexed invests, then we're all screwed. I'm like, I don't think that'll ever happen. If you've met any person who is really into investing, they do not like indexing.

They find it too boring. They want something a bit more exciting. And I recently just binge watched the show that's on Amazon Prime. What is it called? Jack Ryan or whatever. And it has nothing to do with investing. However, there was a weird scene where they were on a boat. They're on some investigative mission. It was all very exciting. And there's lots of action. And then someone said, oh, if you want to do something boring, if you don't want to join us, then just go buy an index

fund. And then they all laughed and then like continue on their adventure and i'm like that's actually good advice though yeah but if you're an international international spies are the ones that are that are making active bets there i know i know i just thought that was so funny i'm like oh people are gonna watch it like yeah index fund sack i'm, no. They're really great, but it's okay. It was a good joke. Um, but, uh, another thing you mentioned was the attention, uh, behavioral risk, which I think we see that all the time, people paying too much attention to the news or paying too much attention to their friend. Who's like, Hey, have you seen this? Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, so that's definitely a part of it, right, is letting the news creep in. You know, I think in the U.S. right now, we're in a time where there's a highly polarized

political climate. I know that's certainly the case in Western Europe. I know Canada has had some rumblings in that direction as well. And so I see a lot of that. I see a lot of people investing alongside their politics or alongside things that they wish were true that perhaps are not. overrule our process. And so you have seen for over the course of, you know, what's been a wonderful 10 year market, you have seen every couple of months, some profit of doom coming out saying, you know, this is the end and the sky is falling and people read these things and they get scared and they, you know, they, they make decisions based on this. I forget who said it, but much more money has been lost preparing for corrections than in the actual corrections themselves.

And yet, events like the Great Recession, events like 2008, 2009 are so dramatic and they stick with us that we spend a lot of time focused on this thing that doesn't happen all that often when we should really be focused on things like, again, are we appropriately diversified? Are we working with someone who can help us manage our taxes and stay the course? Are we keeping our fees where they need to be? All these things are much, much, much more predictive of whether or not you cross the financial finish line than something like your ability to time the next recession. So that's sort of attention in a nutshell. And yeah, I hear that too. I actually recently did a workshop and afterwards, there was this young guy who's still in university came to me and he started learning about investing

and he was so worried. He was like in his twenties and he was so worried about the next recession. He's like, I don't want to start investing now because I'm afraid I'll lose some for the next, or should I just wait? So then I can pile all the money when that recession happens. I'm like, no one has a crystal ball though. No one knows when it's going to happen. So don't, cause I see that all the time. People wait years to get started or to pile a bunch of money into their investments because they're waiting for that correction. But you know, in my personal experience, when there is a correction, I, it's very difficult for me to actually pile money into my investments. I'm just like, my gut is like, don't, you're losing money.

Don't lose more. And so for me, the most I can personally do just based on my own like risk tolerance and my own behaviors is actually do nothing. That's the only thing I can do to not lose all my money. So I'm sure you come across that scenario quite a bit. Yeah, you do. And you make a great point there, which is everyone you talk to, everyone I talk to says, you know what, I'm cautious right now, but the next time there's a 2008, 2009, I'm going to be buying stocks with both hands. And every time I say to them, no, you're not. Because all of the research points to how influenced we are by externalities, like externalities like what the market's doing, externalities, like what we're watching on TV, what people at parties are whispering about. All of this is profoundly influential on our behavior.

And we have this restraint bias, which is we think that we can walk through the fire and make the right decision. But it's much, much, much more predictive of your success to just have a program the next recession and then having the courage to throw your money into what seems like a wood chipper at the time. So, you know, much, much, much, much better program to just sort of stay the course and to have a have a process monthly. Yeah, no, absolutely. So since we talked a lot about those behaviors and we've kind of touched on some of the kind of solutions or things that people can do to kind of not just fall into those traps. Let's kind of go through some of them. I wrote some notes just based on some information I kind of gathered on you. So if you feel like you are kind of succumbing to that ego behavior, what is something you can do

to kind of mitigate that? So the first thing you need to do to become a great behavioral investor is to realize that you're no different than the next person. Like you're no, you know, you're no luckier, you're no more special, you're no better at timing the market or picking stocks than the next person. And once you realize that you begin to have the sort of humility that's required to do the right thing. So in terms of keeping ego in check, like I think, you know, something like reading a book like mine and seeing, you know, just how bad most people are at this helps. I think working with a professional who can, you know, kind of help keep you in place can help. And I think that keeping, you know, keeping the money out of your reach to an extent can help to, you know, just

just the same way that someone on a on a diet shouldn't, you know, keep cookies in their cupboard. I, I hire a financial advisor to sort of be a wall in between me and poor choices. And I mean, I should know better than anyone, you know, having written all these books on this stuff, like I should know better than anyone. And yet I, I know that if I had all my money in, uh, you know, in a, in an E-Trade account that I could access hourly, I would be making all sorts of dumb decisions with it. So you need, you know, you need the right, you need the right environment as well. So I guess that's kind of a, just a word of caution for anyone doing DIY investing. It's like, if you know that you're not the type of person that will be able to kind of not go crazy, if there is something that happens in the markets that maybe DIY investing isn't the best,

because there's too much easy access to your money. So here's, here's what's funny though, because, you know, we, it, because it's the best time in the history of the world to be an investor. Investment product is cheap. Technology is fantastic. So in some respects, it's never been easier to be a DIY investor. investors, the research shows, handily underperform those who work with professionals, even though the professionals are charging a fee, right? So that's where you have to be careful. And paradoxically, if you're listening to this and going, oh no, I've totally got this under control. Never a worry. I've got this in hand, you're probably exactly the wrong person to be a DIY investor. It's actually, you know, you're suffering from that ego bias that we talked about. It's the person who heard you say that who went, hmm, maybe that's me that might actually be okay to do it themselves. So it's very, again, very paradoxical. And technically, it's not, it's sort

of simple, but not easy, right? We've got all the technology to do it ourselves in many respects. And yet most people don't and most people can't because of the behavioral impediments. No, absolutely. And I think that's like my husband's a DIY investor and he has, yeah, basically we do a monthly kind of, you know, money checkup, you know, see what's going on with their money. And every time he looks at his portfolio and he's basically, I'm that person to be like, don't touch it. So maybe you need an accountability partner if you're a DIY investor to be like, don't do anything.

That's right. So talking a little bit more about conservatism, what are some things that people can do to make sure they don't kind of fall into that trap as well? So conservatism, by what you don't know, diversify away from your career and your geography and make sure you have exposure to the US, to things outside of the US, to fixed income, to treasuries, to real estate, to all sorts of different asset classes, some of which you may not be very familiar with, but it's easy to get cheap exposure to all sorts of asset classes now. So those are the biggest things. And sort of, you know, advice that cuts across all four of these, you know, I talk about these three E's

and we've touched on them a bit, you know, today. The first is education, right? So you need to teach yourself what you know, you need to know the basics, and then more importantly, you need to know what you don't know. So education is sort of the foundation. The next thing you need is the right environment, which in this case is the right portfolio, right? You need a portfolio that's suitable to your risk tolerance. So it won't buck you off the ride. And then finally, you need encouragement, you know, for your husband, that's you, you're that encouragement. You're that voice of reason when he wants to make a poor choice. It could be an accountant. It could be an advisor. It could be a partner, whoever that is. Even if you're in the right portfolio, even if you have

the right education, there's going to be moments in time where you're going to want to do the wrong thing and you need that coach in your corner, whoever that is for you to help keep you on the path. Absolutely. It is. Yeah. Just like we've talked about, it's investing isn't as simple as just like numbers and just knowing what you're doing and having a plan. It's the human in us that messes it all up and makes it more just, yeah. Like you said, it's, it's easy, but not simple or simple, but not easy. One of those simple, but not easy. There we go. Well, uh, I'm not going to go through the other two cause I know the answers are in your book. So people will have to go check it

out and grab it. I really appreciate you taking the time to, to chat with me. You are such a wealth of knowledge and, um, I, yeah, I, I feel like everyone needs to know about this stuff on top of all the kind of theoretical and strategy kind of components of investing. So I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. And where can people find more information about you and grab a copy of your book? So the easiest place is on Amazon. The books are called The Laws of Wealth and the Behavioral Investor. I'm active on Twitter and LinkedIn, at Daniel Crosby on Twitter. And I have a podcast called Standard Deviations where I talk all about behavioral finance.

So people can dive really deep and just listen to this on their... Yeah, I love that. I love it. Thank you so much. It was a joy. Thank you so much. And that was episode 218 with Dr. Daniel Crosby. Make sure to pick up a copy of his latest book called The Behavioral Investor

and also maybe all of his other books. Why not just get right into that world of basically everything we just talked about. Also, make sure to check out his podcast called Standard Deviations. You can find it wherever you find this podcast. So go ahead if you really want to do a deep dive. Lots of really, really great episodes in that podcast. Of course, make sure to check out the show notes for this episode for links and more information about everything that we talked about. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 218. Also, I've got some exciting things. I'm going to actually tease. I'm not going to say it right now. I'm going to let you wait because I'm not going to say it right now.

I'm going to let you wait because I have a few words to share about this episode's sponsor, but don't go away. I have very important things to share with you. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Manulife Vitality. What's your vitality age? I just checked mine at vitalityage.ca and discovered I've got a vitality age of 32. Not bad considering I'm 33. You see, your vitality age is an indication of your overall health. And depending on your daily lifestyle choices, it could be higher or lower than your actual age. To get more people thinking

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Okay, first, I am giving away a ton of books. I'm actually going to be starting to, uh, get winners like for these books because you know, it's December. I want to start shipping these out before I go home to Vancouver for the holidays and make sure you maybe get it before Christmas. So, uh, make sure to go to Jessica Morehouse.com slash contests to enter all the different book giveaways. Basically I'm giving away a copy of a book that every book that has been featured on this season of the show, including Daniel's book, The Behavioral Investor. So make sure to check out jessicamorehouse.com slash contest to enter to win. Also, if you want to learn more about just the foundational elements of investing and you are Canadian, Well, I do have an online course

called Investing Foundations for Canadians. It's actually, I think, yeah, I think I just passed my one year anniversary of the course, which is so, so exciting. I've been able to help so many students go from literally no idea where to start feeling really anxious, not confident about investing, just don't know what to do to basically emailing me and be like, oh my gosh, you changed my life. This is what I needed. So I know there are so many great podcast episodes I've had with guests about investing and so many great books, but sometimes you just need a basically guide on this is what you need to do and this is how you make an investment plan. And these are all the elements to actually help you take action. Because I feel like sometimes that's kind of the biggest roadblock, I suppose, is you

have too much information, but you still don't actually know what steps to take. So that is what my course is all about. So make sure to check it out at jessicamorehouse.com slash investing foundations. Also very excited to share that if you were not able to make my millennial money meetup number six that I did on November 19th in Toronto, that is okay because I recorded the whole panel discussion. It was me moderating and I was joined with special guests, Rubina Ahmed-Hawk, Richard Moxley, and Patrick Enns. It was such a great panel about debt and credit. And yeah, if you want to know what the

heck we talked about, well, first you can listen to the whole thing tomorrow. I will drop the episode tomorrow of the full panel discussion. But also if you want to watch us, it's also on my YouTube channel. Just go to deskandmorehouse.com slash YouTube. It will take you right to my channel. Also, I guess this is a great opportunity for me to let you know I have a YouTube channel. I've been making videos pretty consistently every single week since about the summer, I guess June, about pretty much every, focusing on all the things that I know people want to learn more about in a bite-sized little chunk. They don't want to necessarily listen to a 30, 40 minute podcast. So make sure to check out my YouTube channel, subscribe and like, and all that kind of stuff. I have a lot of fun doing these

videos and I can't wait to make more in the new year. And I guess that's about it. One question I actually do want to just answer because I get this question a lot is, hey, when are you doing more events or where can I find more information about all the content you put out and all this kind of stuff? I do a lot of things. Let's be honest here. I've got this podcast. I have a blog. I have my YouTube channel. I do events. I sometimes do webinars. I do external public speaking gigs, events that I don't organize, but I speak at. I do a lot of things because I like variety, I guess. But the main way that you can keep in touch and find out when everything is out or happening is to get on my email list. So just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash subscribe, and you'll be in the know. I send it out weekly, sometimes every two weeks, depending on how busy

I am, and then I forget to send it out. But that is kind of uh what the best way to kind of keep in touch with me uh that and twitter i'm very good at twitter um that i realized lately i i went to this uh university to speak at apparently twitter's not as uh cool as it once was which makes me feel like an old millennial but that's just uh that's just how it is, isn't it? Anyways, that is it for me. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Check back here tomorrow for that episode that I mentioned. And I will see you either tomorrow or next week for a fresh new episode of The Momentum Podcast.

Have a good rest of your week. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.