More Money Podcast - 224 How to Be Brave with Your Money - Kara Perez, Founder of BravelyGo and Financial Feminist Educator

Episode Date: January 29, 2020

For this episode of the Mo’ Money Podcast, I’ve got my friend Kara Perez on the show. She is the founder of Bravely Go, a feminist financial education company. Her company focuses on bringing actionable and accessible financial education to people through pop up events and an online community. Kara is also the co-host of the award-winning The Fairer Cents podcast and if that wasn’t enough she’s also a money coach! In this episode, we talk about why there is such a need to hear diverse voices in the personal finance world so we can all learn from each other, what it means to be a financial feminist, and Kara shares her tips on how to negotiate like a pro so you can level up your money (a skill I sure wish I had back in my 20s). Kara also shares her story of graduating soon after the recession with an English degree, and living on a low income for many years while struggling to pay off her debt. By taking the time to educate herself about money and being disciplined with living below her means, she was able to crush her debt and now works full-time running her own company teaching others how to empower themselves through personal finance. Although she doesn’t like to say if she can do it so can you, hopefully her story will serve as some inspiration that no matter where you’re at in life, there’s always a path to a better financial life. For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/224 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the Momentum Podcast. I'm your host, Jessi Morehouse, and this is episode 224. I'm so excited about this episode because it's a long time coming. Should have had this gal on the show a long time ago, but she's on it now, so it's fine. I have my dear friend, Cara Perez, who I've known for a few years now. I feel like actually several years now. I've known her really since we both had blogs with very different names. That's how long ago we've known each other. She is now the founder of Bravely Go, a feminist financial education company, which focuses on bringing actionable and accessible financial education to people via pop-up events and online community. And also Kara is an amazing writer. She's also

been featured in Forbes, Glamour, U.S. News and World Report, is a financial expert. She lives in Austin, Texas, and she is on the show to talk about some very important things that we all need to know. I mean, her story is pretty incredible in that she, uh, you know, like lots of other people graduated, uh, you know, not too soon, you know, soon after the recession, she graduated in 2011, had a boatload of student debt. Um, and she also had an English degree and had a hard time finding a job, but she was still able to live on a low income and pay off her debt. And a big part of it is because she found that you can really empower yourself and

just change your destiny. Is that too woo-woo? Maybe. When you learn how to properly manage your money, and that really just spiraled into her passion for personal finance. Now she's teaching other amazing people to be brave with your money. And we will save that a lot because so many times I'm like, oh my God, that's why he came up with the name brave. There's a lot of, you have to be brave, honestly, when it comes to your money, you really do. That is how you make lasting change with your money, being brave and doing things that terrify you. So we're going to talk about all of this stuff coming up. Also, make sure to listen to the end because I have something very exciting to share. I'm doing a

big special giveaway. I've never done this on the show. You're going to not want to miss it. But before I get to this interview with Kara, here is just a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Momany Podcast is supported by ShopTaker. You know what I've been dreaming of having ever since I moved into my townhouse over three years ago? A new fridge. The old one I've got is ancient and hideous, but I'm one of those people who cannot in good conscience buy a new appliance until the old one stops working. That is, unless I find a crazy deal. But who has time to regularly check retailer websites to see if there's suddenly a sale or a price drop?

Thanks to ShopTaker, no one needs to anymore. ShopTaker is a free must-have app for your computer and phone that enables you to save items from over 4,000 online stores like Amazon, Costco, Sephora, and Zara to one place and get notified the moment they go on sale. It also scans the

web for coupon codes at checkout and automatically applies them to your purchase. In short, if you shop online and like a deal as much as I do, you should try out ShopTaker by visiting jessicamorehouse.com slash ShopTaker and that's spelled S-H-O-P-T-A-G-R. So go on, join the over 1.5 million members and sign up to ShopTaker today. Just visit jessicamorehouse.com slash ShopTaker or find the link in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Kara, for joining me on the Mo Money Podcast. It's way too late to have you, like I should have had you on the show so long ago, but you're here now. And I'm actually glad having you on at this point, because you have built your company, Bravely Go, so much. It's grown in so many ways over the past year. So I'm excited to kind of talk about everything that you're doing. Because I remember,

I feel like the first time we met in person was at FinCon. And you, at that time, were deciding to let go of your, you had a personal finance blog and to start something new. Remember that? Yes. Oh my gosh. You, me and Tess Wicks hanging out on the boat. Oh my God. Yeah. That was, so that was 2015 and yeah, you're right. I had been blogging about paying off my student loans and living really frugally. And I knew I wanted to pivot away from just talking about that and talking about money in a broader sense. And I was just trying to figure out what that meant for me, what that looked like. Could I make any money doing that? And now here we are, I guess,

you know, not quite five years later. Um, and it's my full-time job. So things have changed. I know a lot has changed since that like boat conversation. Cause I feel like it was a, it was the first time I ever hung out with other bloggers and had deep conversations about like, uh, you know, our kind of dreams and goals and our blogs and where we kind of sought, you know, where we would be. You have bravely go. Tess, I believe, lives in Italy now and is killing it doing full-time coaching. And I also work full-time.

I could have never actually foreseen the changes that have happened since that conversation. I know. Me either. I remember you saying something because you were still working full-time and you said something a lot like, my business made money, but certainly not enough to live on. And I was like, oh, well, okay. If her business made money, I have a shot. Okay. Oh, that's funny. Cause I was more like, oh, I can never quit my job. Cut to. Yeah, I know. Oh my gosh. We're out here doing it. We are doing it. I know. That's so wild. So, so let's a little bit because like you kind of mentioned, I know this is a big part of your story and why I think I was drawn to you so much as you're so open about your journey and how you were kind of low income for a while.

You even have those numbers on your website, which I'm like, that is brave. That is brave because it is part of your story and how you help people is to lay that information out so people know. Can you want to take us a little back? Because I feel like whenever I kind of search you online, that is kind of the main stories. You were able to somehow pay off a ton of debt and grow this company and work for yourself. And you did it in kind of an unconventional way. Yeah. Unconventional is definitely the word for it. So yeah. I graduated college in 2011 with $25,302 in student loan debt, and that was spread across five loans. And I have a degree in English, which in 2011, and probably still today, is not a very in-demand degree. I love my degree. I'm so glad I got it.

But I don't judge. My little sister has an English degree. I love my degree. I'm so glad I got it. I don't judge. My little sister has an English degree. I know so many people with English degrees, actually. So I get it. Yeah. I mean, I have to say in 2014, when I kind of had my quarter life crisis, I was like, why was I such an idiot? But now I look back and I'm like, you know what? Getting that degree, it taught me how to think, it taught me how to write, and I'm really glad for it. But there have been some down moments. But anyway, my first three years out of college, I waited tables. And anyone who has worked in the food service industry knows that that is not necessarily lucrative.

So I made, yeah, like $15,000, $16,000, $18,000 a year for the first three years out of school. But I also managed to pay off all that debt within three and a half years of graduation. And I paid off the last $18,000 in 10 months. So I refer to that as kind of my debt payoff sprint. And that was really the time that I got deeply involved in the money world and realized that I really care about this. And I also realized there aren't very many voices like me in the space at the time. It's gotten much bigger and much more diverse now. But at the time, it was a lot of high income married couples living in in like really expensive cities talking about, oh, well, if I just downsize from my seven bedroom

house to a three bedroom house, I can save so much more money. And I was like, uh, I live in a bedroom that I rent with three other roommates. I'm a waitress. Yeah. I cannot relate to that situation. Yeah. I, I used to get so frustrated. I think throughout my whole twenties, back when I started reading personal finance blogs, maybe this is like 2010. The only blogs that really existed were, like you said, people of kind of high net worth and did not have my problems. They're just like, oh, I'm just, you know, trying to figure out how to maximize my RRSP. I'm like, okay, I'm just like trying to make another hundred bucks. Like I'm broke. Yeah, exactly. And so since I have this degree in English and I've always enjoyed writing,

I decided to start a blog and I called it From Frugal to Free because I was really frugal and I was very low income, but I was working towards financial freedom. That was my goal. And so, yeah, I blogged about how I was paying off my student loans on such a tiny income. And I talked about, I've never had a full-time job. That's probably something I should bring up. I mean, waiting tables is a full-time job, but it doesn't have any benefits. It's not really a traditional job. And so I wrote about having all these different side hustles and picking up different gigs and what I was doing to kind of really decrease my spending. And so I went down to living, I mean, truly just bare bones. I would, I had a catering side hustle that I kept for many

years and, um, I would bring home all the leftovers. And so my grocery budget was like 60, 70 bucks a month. Cause I was just eating these like leftover mashed potatoes, which wasn't very healthy, but was free. And, you know, talking about how I was walking places instead of driving to save on gas money. And then when I got to the end of paying off my debt, I realized my own journey was changing. I needed to learn to invest, how to grow my money, all these other parts of money. And I thought, this is actually something I'm way more interested in than only talking about debt payoff is really talking about money in a bigger picture way and applying it to as many different scenarios and also talking more about the intersectionality of money and how things like our race and our gender affect our different money stories. And so that's now what I do.

I pivoted. I started Bravely Go. We host events. I work with people as a money coach in the US and we also do online community building events. So that's what I do all the time now. That's amazing. And yeah, I feel like still, I mean, yeah, it's way more diverse in the kind of personal finance sphere with so many more podcasts coming out and blogs. However, I do feel like yours is very diverse. You really do talk about so many topics that a lot of people do not talk about. Even myself, I'm like, I don't really

talk about feminism on the show. I am obviously a feminist, but I'm like, I've never really talked about it on the show. And I love that you, well, you also have the podcast, The Fairer Sense as well, but that is a topic that you really kind of embrace. And I feel like it's also very brave because a lot of people may not want to touch that because a lot of people have some feelings about some things. Yes, a lot of people do have feelings. That is definitely something I deal with. But yeah, so to your point, I definitely really embrace the side of things that some people would say are maybe controversial or, you know, we don't need to talk about that. Just focus on the numbers. But we really do. I mean, we know there are things like wage gaps and investment gaps.

We know that women earn less than men and that women of color earn less than white women. And I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about that. That's just saying, like, grass is green, sky is blue. We live in a biased society. So these are facts. And so if we're really going to serve to our best abilities, to all these communities, we have to talk about the different challenges that different communities face. And so, yeah, I definitely lean into the, I like to use the term financial feminist world. And that's a big part of what we do on my podcast, The Fairer Sense. We do talk about the intersectionality and some of these

stickier things. And I really have to say, I certainly there are haters, especially on Instagram. I definitely get a lot of really negative comments on my Instagram, but I have to say in large part, like nobody is emailing me being like, you're stupid and I hate you and the wage gap isn't real and I'm not getting a ton of hate. And I think that's because, I mean, especially in the U.S., I'm based in Austin, Texas. We really are beginning to have some of these conversations as a society. in an election year in the US. And a lot of the discussion is around money and wealth inequality and healthcare and these huge issues for us that we haven't really figured out. And so I think that makes the work that I do with Bravely Go a little bit easier, because now it's not unusual to see on the news, like, let's talk about how 401ks aren't really working for a lot of people. And

then I can come in and say like, yeah, and it's really not working for these people. So that's exciting. Yeah, no, I've definitely been seeing that too, which is kind of a nice relief. And I think it's also important for me to also just follow people like you to think differently because we need to have more of these conversations because eventually these conversations will, like you said, just be just normal. Like everyone's talking about this. It was not such a weird taboo thing. And that's kind of the whole point. We need to be talking more about this. So it's, it's, everyone talks about it and everyone thinks differently about money because I feel like for a long while, and I'm sure you feel the same way when you think of finance, you would think of a white man in a suit telling you what to do and what not to do and talking down to you. And a lot

of the time you wouldn't see yourself represented in the voices that were in the personal finance world. Yeah. And that's why I often get, I would say actually more so than I get like hate, I get a lot of really sweet emails from other women, other people that are saying, I want to do what you do. How did you get started? Or what can I do? Is my voice still necessary? And I'm always like, yeah, the more people talking about money, I really believe the better. And like you said earlier, I tend to be very transparent with my numbers. I like to tell people not only how much I made, but I started my company with $3,300 that I mostly saved from my catering side hustle. And now it supports me full time.

I out-earned my partner. And I'm still not a huge earner. I definitely have a ways to go. But that growth is possible. And I think by sharing those numbers and saying, yes, and the more that you can get other people in to say, I'm a parent of seven. Like, I'm not a parent of seven. I don't know how you would handle the finances in that family. So get in here, share your story. We can all learn that way. And I think that's something that's really

special that you do is you get other voices involved. So it's not just you, the personal finance blog. It's you sharing so many other perspectives and voices that you're like, well, I don't have that. So like, I can't talk about that, but you can. So please share your story, which I think is also sometimes we're very siloed and we just were in our bubbles. I mean, I feel like sometimes, like even in our personal lives, like a lot of my friends are single. Lots of them are married, but not a ton with kids. And so when people talk about kids and finances, I'm like, that's a hard one for me to really relate to or know what to say because I don't have that experience. But you could talk about that. Yeah, absolutely. I really believe in passing the mic. And I think that's something else that people get really scared because we

spend so much time, especially when we're our own business owners, we spend so much time building our brand and portraying ourselves as the expert or the product. And it's almost scary to pass the mic to someone else because we feel like we're going to lose out. But actually, I've found that by using my platforms to highlight other people or I host these day-long conferences in the US, maybe someday in Canada. I really want to come to Canada. Come on over to Toronto. You have an open invitation. You always have. You just let me know. Oh, thank you. I really want to come up there. Um, and I always pull in other speakers

to talk about other topics. I mean, I can talk about negotiation and debt payoff and investing all myself, but that's not a super engaging event where it's just me on stage, whereas I can bring in other people and they can share their expertise. And something that we're starting in 2020 on my Instagram, which is at WeBravelyGo, is where we're going to be featuring people in our community sharing their money stories on Instagram stories. And I think that's just such a nice way to not only promote these new voices, but again, just go back to saying like, hey, yes, this is my community. I've worked so hard to build this. And also I want you to feel welcome here. So why don't you tell me a little bit about you and money for you? I love that. Do you want to talk a little bit more about your events?

Because I feel like that was one of the big things when you started Bravely Go. That was a big thing for you. And I do events, but not on the scale as you like. You do so many events. I don't know how you do it. And yeah, they're like sometimes day-long workshops. Do you want to talk a little bit about like what are those about? What do you teach and what's involved in all that? Yeah. So basically my goal is to be the create and cultivate of financial events in the United States and one day the world. So anyone familiar with create and cultivate knows that they do pop up day long conferences all the time across the US. They really, that is an impressive team right there. So that's sort of what I do. So we do these conferences four times a year, once per quarter, and we just finished one in January 2020. And so it goes from 9am to 4pm. We have three different workshops. And then we usually close with a panel on a bigger, broader financial subject. And we do lunch and there's a photo booth. And it's great. It's so much fun. And I really wanted to do events because like you just said, like sometimes it's so easy to feel siloed. And especially if you're in a place where you're trying to learn

about money, maybe you Google it or you follow a couple people on Instagram or Twitter, but it's so easy to feel alone with your money. But if I put together an event that's specifically about debt payoff and you come and there's 15 other people there. You know, hey, these 15 other people have debt. I'm not the only weirdo who has debt. And now I can learn. I can build some community around this. I can remind myself in three or four weeks when I'm feeling bummed out about something that like, oh, right, there's other people. We're trying. We're all trying together. So for me, the events are really about that community aspect. And I'm an extrovert. I love other people.

And it's a way for me personally to get out of my house and to remember to really engage with people and say, like, oh, right, it's so easy for me to think that everyone already knows everything and this isn't necessary. But then to get out there and to see someone and have them say, oh, my gosh, you changed my life. I've never heard this before. That book is totally new to me, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where you know that change is really happening. Yeah. Yeah. And I find too, because we're so online, it's actually really refreshing to do something like a little crazy and going to an in-person event. It's almost abnormal to do that these days. But I find the ones that I go to and the ones that I do so impactful. You remember so... And you get to meet some amazing people and like you said, be part of a community. How amazing is it to meet 15 other people who are also

trying to pay off debt and they're just like you? And you're like, oh my God, I thought it was a loan. And I think that's a big problem in personal finance or not so much in personal finance. When people before they kind of really get into the whole thing, they feel like no one else can relate. And I don't know, because everyone's putting up a front on social media. Their life is amazing, but it's not. It's not. Right. Yeah. The social media highlight reel, we all struggle with it. It's so easy to just think, oh my gosh, this person is clearly on their way to being the next, you know, J-Lo or Michelle Obama. And I'm in my sweats at home, which I currently am, by the way, I'm in my sweatpants. So it's not on Glamour. Oh yeah, I'm in my sweatpants.

Right. It's wintertime. It's snuggly time. Yeah. And so I completely agree. Getting out and just really getting out from behind your computer is so helpful. And as we get more and more digital and as things, everything becomes an app, right? I do think it's all the more important to have these in-person events, whether they be big scale or smaller scale. I also do smaller events that are like two or three hours and we'll just focus on one money topic. And those tend to be smaller, you know, 10 or 15 people. And it's a really good chance to just connect. Oh, you need to come to Canada for real. I think that'd be so amazing. And I know you also have a course because I saw it on your Instagram today that your Talk

Money to Me course, you're also going to be going to a university to teach that, but it's also available online. Can you tell me a little bit about what is that course about? What do you teach? Because you're also a money coach. What are some of the core things that you like to teach people? Yes. So I have a course called Talk Money to Me that I am very excited to bring to the University of Texas at Austin in their spring semester for 2020. And in it, we cover really the money basics. So the online course covers negotiation, investing, debt payoff, and budgeting 101. And then the in-person events or the course that I'm bringing to the university also covers money mindset,

the emotions around money, and then those same hard topics. And for me, I think when it comes to money, part of the reason I named my company Bravely Go, which does not scream money. Like, if you see that out there, you're not like, that's clearly a financial education company. But I do think you have to be brave to kind of face your money, especially if you're dealing with any negative emotions or insecurities, or you just straight up don't know things. You do have to take some courage to really step into the money world. So that's how I kind of approach the course, both online and offline. I say, hey, thank you so much for being here. You're taking the first step to really changing your life. Let's talk about money in this big picture way. And then

let's drill down. So the online course, it's videos, it's pre-recorded. And then it also, each chapter has a workbook. So there's a negotiation workbook that has strategies and tips and practices for you to get better at negotiating. And the investing course is like, here's 20 terms that people are going to use when they talk about investing, make sure you understand them. And how can you figure out if you need, again, in the United States, it's like a 401k versus an IRA and figuring out exactly what those are and things like that. So I like to take this very practical, very actionable, but also really like, hey,

you're a hero for even being here approach to money. I love that. And that actually makes so much sense. Because yeah, when you're just saying that, I'm like, I still remember the feeling of, you know, yeah, admitting to myself, admitting to others, just like, I'm struggling. I'm not doing okay. And I thought I had this whole picture in my mind in my 20s of how things would be. I just thought I would, for some reason, have more money. But no, I'd always have way less money. And it was kind of like, I think it's very brave to admit to yourself when you do need help and then get the help that you need, whether that's self-education or hiring someone to help you get through it. But yeah, it's not an easy thing. You do have to, it is bravery,

I would say for sure. Yeah. It's so funny. I'm speaking at another conference tomorrow and I was just working on my slides before we hopped on this recording and I have my tax return from 2015 up there. And it says, you know, after taxes were taken out, I made $22,300. Not very much money. And I'm putting it in the presentation so that people can see it. You know, I'm blocking out my private information, but I want people to see that. So again, they don't feel alone and they can know sort of a, I hate the phrase, like, if I can do it, you can do it. I don't really necessarily believe that for a couple different reasons, but I like- It's a bit overdone. I definitely use that term because I'm like, well, it depends on what you're talking about. But yeah, it's a bit, everyone's saying that now. I'm like, well, I can't, I don't

know if that's realistic for me to become a multimillionaire because you were able to do it. Right. Yeah. I just think it's missing some nuance, but I do like to show people like, hey, here's where I started. It's not super glamorous. And here's what I was able to change about my life. So I bet even if you're not starting in the same place, if you're ahead of where I was, if you're behind where I was, I bet you can change something about your life to make it better. So yeah, being brave, sharing our numbers, that's what we're all about. Yeah, no, absolutely. So I really like that you mentioned that in your course, part of it is negotiation. That is something that I feel like a lot of people, people talk about debt and investing and budgeting and all that kind of stuff.

Negotiation, not as much for me. I'm like, that is a skill I wish someone taught me 10 years ago, five years ago. It's a skill I've developed, but I've made a lot of mistakes. You want to talk a little bit about what do you teach your students about negotiation? What are some tips that you can give us? Because I feel like we can all do better when it comes to negotiation. Oh my gosh. I feel exactly the same way as you. I wish someone had taught me really even just having confidence in asking for something that you want. I feel like that's step one when it comes to negotiation is figuring out what you even want. Because when we think about negotiation, it's really easy to just get caught up in, ask for more money, but currency comes in many forms. You know, if yes, more money. But currency comes in many forms.

Yes, more money is probably always great. I'm not going to turn down more money. I know in my life, and I don't know anyone who really would. But if you, for example, would really love to have them pay for your parking spot. If you drive downtown, you have to pay 15 bucks a day for parking. Maybe you can negotiate your company covering that. Or maybe you can negotiate more vacation time or a work from home day twice a week. You know, there's all sorts of things you can negotiate. So sit down and ask yourself, what do I really want from this job? What's my number that I need? But also what are the perks that I am interested in having? I think that's step one. And then step two is really knowing like, I can ask for this, really just having the confidence that your asks are not unreasonable, that the company can probably

provide them. And then it may be a bit of a dance, you know, we'll give you A, but we won't give you B. Let's talk about maybe giving you C. And that's also fine. Negotiation isn't a war. You're not going in trying to gun down the other side. It's really more of a dance where you take a step, they take a step, you take a step, they take a step, and you're just twirling around the dance floor, both getting what you want. Do you feel like a lot of people have a hard time negotiating? This is definitely what I hear from people. They have a hard time negotiating, especially when it is in terms of a job interview. They're afraid that if they start negotiating before of like a job interview, is they're afraid that if they start negotiating before they get a job offer, they won't get a job offer. Or if it's after the job

offer, they'll lose out in some way. Maybe they'll rescind the offer or something like that. Do you find there's a lot of those are kind of common fears? Yeah, definitely. People seem to think that if they ask for anything, especially too early in the process, and I'm using air quotes at too early, that the companies will be like, how dare you? And they will just pull out completely. There definitely is sort of a prime time to ask for a raise or to do some negotiation, whether you already work at a company or this is your first or second interview with a company. Certainly the first thing out of your mouth shouldn't be, I deserve a bajillion dollars a year and here's why. You should establish how you can help them.

You really want to be your own hype woman and say, I know that your goals are to grow sales by 15,000 consumers in Q2. Here's how I can help you do that. So you establish why you are important to them. And then you say, now, here's what's going to cost you, basically, to help me help you do this. So first thing, go in, really establish that value, bring your brag sheet, and let them know why you are, you know, a total badass. And then you want to ask for your numbers or your perks or whatever.

How is it different when you're, you know, self-employed or a freelancer and so you're constantly negotiating rates or, you know, project fees? This is something that I will admit to not being very good at for the first probably two years of my career because I did a lot of freelance writing to sort of get my foot in the door and to earn that money. And I would just take whatever people offered me in the first year. Literally, I mean, the first article I ever wrote, I think was $5. I mean, not great. I've been there though. I can't judge. I've been there. Right. And it was not like a full like journalistic article. It was just sort of like a 500 words,

whatever, but still. Um, and so I would say a couple of things. First freelancers or people who work for themselves, you kind of have a fabulous thing where you can just raise your rates annually, give your people plenty of notice, you know, in early December, let them know, Hey, heading into the new year, my rates are going to be going up by 3%, 7%, whatever. Happy to have a conversation about this. Let me know if you want that, but you know, you are a business and you kind of get to say, this is what my services cost. And if you do it annually, people just know, and you can also build that into your contracts. If you land a client in June, you can put into the contract, you know, prices subject to annual raise, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, that's smart. That's really smart. One thing that I have learned from some other freelancers and business owners who, you know, do, you know, fee for pay work is, because I do the

annual thing as well, but depending on how your business changes throughout the year, and sometimes it can change drastically, you can kind of change your rates any time. What I kind of do is I just have all of my clients organized and I just remember, what was the last rate I gave them? Oh, it was a year ago or it was a long... Then it's fine if you double your rate or do whatever you want. And I think that's another thing that people get tripped up about. It's like, well, how much should I raise my rates? Is it a percentage? For me, I'm not an expert on this, but what I have done that's been successful is I just feel like, let's see where I can push this. And also talking to other people that do

similar things, you can also be like, how much do you charge? Just like privately or what's a range that I think would be good. And then kind of go from there. It's not an exact science, but yeah. Yeah. It's definitely not an exact science. And so I also think that's a really valuable piece of advice to freelancers is to just let the perfectionist side of you when it comes to this go and understand that maybe with one client, you're going to bump your rate up 50%. And with one client, it's going to be 5%. You know, that's fine. But what you just said, I have to say about talking to other people in the industry and asking for a range or how they negotiate with people. I have to say our mutual friend, Aaron Lowry, actually you were there for this conversation. Oh, was I? When we went out to lunch at FinCon.

And yeah, it was definitely you. Yeah, yeah. And I was talking about I had this writing client that I was writing for. And it was like 1,000 words, an article. And I was charging like $250. And Erin just looked at me. She was like, you need to double your rates. She was just like, when you do that, it undercuts everyone else that is a

freelance writer because you're lowering the bar for us. And also you're not making enough money. So shout out Erin for just dropping a truth bomb into my life. Yeah. And sometimes you need someone to be like, you're not charging enough. Like that is so many times I've hung out with people and we'll have a few drinks and we'll kind of share that information. And they're like, oh, no, no. I was talking to a friend who does something sort of similar. And we actually worked on a project together. We didn't know each other too, too well at that point. But this was several years ago. We were talking about, so how much did you charge? I told her. And then she told me what she charged. And I thought I misheard her. So I thought she

said a way lower number than me. I'm like, oh, well, I probably. And she's like, oh, no, no, no. I said this. I'm like, I'm sorry, what? It was like five times what I charged. And we did the exact same amount of work, same hours, all this kind of stuff. I'm like, well, I need to talk to you more because we can help each other. And that's the other thing, too. I think a lot of people are afraid to talk about that. Obviously, make sure you trust the person, but talking to other people about numbers can be very helpful because if they're a good person, they will want to lift you up because it helps everybody. Not many people are like, I don't want to talk about it. Then they're insecure about something. Most people that have a good head on their shoulders

and also they feel grounded in their business and what they do, they're not going to be shy about, you know, saying numbers and wanting to help you. Totally. If people are being really cagey about stuff, then they definitely have an insecurity around something. Maybe they're coming from that kind of scarcity mindset I talked about earlier where they feel like, oh, if you win, I lose. But that is not the case. You know, if like if you win, I win. But that is not the case. If you win, I win, right? A rising tide lifts all boats. Absolutely. And I think also, which can be difficult too if you're talking with people that are in your industry, but you are kind of worried,

like, are they going to take work? And sometimes that does happen. I've had it where I've talked to an agency to possibly work on a project and they actually go with somebody else, somebody that I know. But again, I never know the details or how much that person is charging or anything like that. And at the end of the day, that's one project out of hopefully hundreds or thousands over a career. So it's not the end of the world. You just got to let it go. Sometimes these things happen. You're in competition with people in your industry.

It's normal. Yeah, absolutely. There's so much opportunity, but certainly there are certain things. There can only be so many speakers at one specific conference, right? Okay, cool. Now I know that, but there are so many conferences, right? So if you're interested in speaking, there's another opportunity down the line. And also maybe that's one thing that I try to do is to take another kind of look at what I'm doing with my brand. I'm like, how can I set myself apart? How can I make sure I am different than this person or this person? So the next time they come to me, it's because I'm unique in some way. And I think that you've done that amazingly well

with your brand of Bravely Go. Thank you. It is. I do think that's such an interesting point because now we're living in the age of the personal brand, right? Everyone is a brand in some way. So weird. It is. It's so weird. And it's definitely overwhelming and you can easily feel like, I mean, I'm in right, sort of like women and money lane. And that's, I'm not alone in that lane. Like there's a bunch of people in there with me, but there's a lot of different people taking a lot of different takes on it. So I'm definitely saying similar things to some of these people, but I'm not saying the exact same thing. And I love that. And like, I just on my Instagram, I posted this picture to announce that I'm teaching Talk Money to Me at the University of Austin. And I went down there with my boyfriend and made him take pictures of me.

And I'm lying on a podium, and I have this silly money bag, an old-timey money bag. It's great. And that's not going to work for everyone. We have several friends who definitely have more polished images than that, where I'm like, oh, that's fine. I'm wearing my shirt that I got at a clothing swap for free. Like I'm wearing my purple sunglasses. And like that works for me and it works for my audience. And there are other people who that doesn't work for. And that's great because somebody else will go speak to those people. Absolutely. And we all, even if you're saying something similar to someone, you have a different way of saying it. I think that's important to remember too. It's like, you're saying it in a different way. You're going to use different words, a different tone. You have

a different personality. And so I think there's room for all of us. And that's definitely something that I feel like we all need to remember and remind each other of. Yes, definitely. While we're, you know, trying to be all these ambitious, successful people in the world. Yes. Well, Kara, it's been so lovely chatting with you. Where can people find more information about, I mean, everything you do, the events and your Talk Money to Me course, most importantly? Yes. So you can find me on the internet, on Instagram, like I mentioned before, I am at WeBravelyGo. You can also find me on Facebook at that same handle. My website is BravelyGo.co. So it's nice. It rhymes, BravelyGo.co. our events, including our online webinars, which are always free, and any in-person events that we're doing. And then you can also find our course. And I also have a $20 budget workbook. So if you're not ready to do a deep dive into all things investing and negotiation,

and you're just trying to get your budget right, that is a great place to start. I love it. I love it. Thanks so much for joining me. It was a long time coming, but so worth the wait. Thank you. This was wonderful. I'm so glad to have been on the show. And that was episode 224 with the amazing Cara Perez. Make sure to go to her website, bravelygo.co, bravelygo.co. Very easy. Also, you can find her on Twitter at bravelygo and Instagram, webravelygo. Definitely follow her on Instagram. I do. And I find her posts very inspiring. She's not like that. You know how there's definitely follow her on Instagram I do and I find her posts very inspiring she's she's not like that you know how there's so much crap on Instagram where you just feel like

junk basically you're just like well my life is garbage because this person is living their best life they're not FYI Instagram is fake um well not fake but you know everyone's just putting what they want you to see it's not their real real life. But anyways, I love the Bravely Go Instagram because just like inspirational quotes and just like, Kara's just like such a positive, beautiful light in this world that is sometimes very dark. Anyway, so that is my promo for her Instagram. That went weird anyways. I mentioned I have something very exciting to share with you, which I am going to share. Just hold on a hot second. I just have a few words to share about this episode's sponsor, and then I'm going to let you know all about it. This episode of the Momenty Podcast is supported by ShopTaker. Did you know that 67% of millennials prefer to shop online? Well, I guess that makes

me one of them. And a big reason is because you can save so much time and money by doing so, especially when you use ShopTaker. You see, ShopTaker is a free app for your computer and phone that helps you do your online shopping and get the best price. All you have to do is make an account. Then when you're doing your online shopping and see something you like, take it with ShopTaker. After you take it, you'll be notified whenever there is a price drop or sale on that item. Not only that, once you're ready to buy, ShopTaker will scan the web for coupon codes at checkout and apply them to your purchase. ShopTaker has already helped members save over $92 million. Don't you want to save some money too? To learn more and to try it out for yourself,

visit jessicamorehouse.com slash shoptaker. And that's spelled S-H-O-P-T-A-G-R. Once again, that's jessicamorehouse.com slash shoptaker or find the link in the show notes for this episode. Oh yeah. Also forgot to mention, make sure to go to the show notes, jessicamorehouse.com slash 224. If you want to find out to the show notes or more information about any episode that you've listened to there, it's all on my website, like links to the people, um, more information, whatever. All you have to do is go to jessicamorehouse.com slash whatever the number of that episode is. And I feel like when you're on the app on like iTunes or what's it? Apple podcasts. I feel like the number is the number there anymore? Did they get rid of it? I can't remember. But I always say it at the

beginning of every episode. So that's, anyways, that's just my little thing. Okay, let's get to the good stuff. I, because Kara is amazing and she just has so many amazing resources on our website, and I feel like I'm just in a weird, I don't know, generous mood for some reason. I'm just going to go with it. I'm going to do this before I'm like, oh, wait, why am I doing this? I am giving away a scholarship to her Talk Money to Me debt payoff course. It costs $119 US and I'm Canadian, so it's more expensive for me. And I am paying for one lucky winner's enrollment. So if you want to take our course, you want it for free, you want me to pay for your enrollment, well, you're going to just have to go to the show notes at jessicaborhouse.com

slash 224 to find out more details on how you can enter and live that debt-free life, make a plan, make things happen this year. It's 2020. Oh, I love saying that. I don't know what it is about this year, but I just have a good feeling about it. And maybe that's why I feel so generous and I'm going to pay for one of your enrollments to the course. But otherwise, check out our website and just enroll. If you can afford it, just do it. Just do it. Just do it. Also, in case you didn't remember or didn't hear in my previous two episodes for this season of the podcast, I'm doing a big book giveaway. If you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest, you will find out the books that I'm giving away. They are all

books that have been featured on this show. More to come because I have a ton of other authors coming on the show. Everyone's got a book these days, right? And I'm going to give them all away. So make sure to go to jessamorris.com slash contest to enter those book giveaways. And one more thing, if you are not aware of it, I have a free Facebook group that you may want to join to find out what's going on in the finance sphere. What are people talking about? Or maybe you have a question you want some help with. There's a lot of amazing people in this group. Just go to facebook.com slash groups slash money life balance. There should also be some sort of button on my website somewhere. But again, if you just search my name on Facebook, I'm sure it'll be there. But anyways, facebook.com slash groups slash money life balance is where you can find that. And of course, if you're not already on my email list, that is where I, uh, share all

my new content, podcasts, videos, blog posts, uh, exciting happenings, contests. Did I already say that? I can't remember. Um, and, and well, I've got some things happening, uh, soon I may be traveling and I may be doing some meetups. Not a big meetup, but I'm probably gonna do some low key meetups. Talking about you, Barbara, I'm coming for you. So I'm going to tell everybody on my email list what's happening. And I want you to know in case you're, you know, in the hood and you want to hang out for a little bit. So yeah, you can do that by going to jessicamarose.com slash subscribe or just head on to my main website. Check it out if you haven't already. All right. That's enough self promo.

Don't we think? We get it. So I'm going to leave you with that. But of course, I've got another episode for you on Friday. Another money minute with Jessica Morse. I feel like some people are liking it. I've been getting some really good feedback and that makes me happy. That makes me really, really happy. And if you have, because I've actually been getting lots of emails and DMs about, hey, you should do a money minute on this. Let me know because I will, because I'm always looking for new things to talk about. So let me know what you want me to answer or talk about or share more information about. All right, that is it for me.

Thanks so much for listening. I'll see you back here on Friday with another episode or next Wednesday with another interview episode. Thanks again. Have a great rest of your day and see you soon. this podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network