More Money Podcast - 255 Opting Out to Live a More Intentional Life - Cait Flanders, Author of Adventures in Opting Out

Episode Date: December 2, 2020

I can’t believe Cait Flanders has been on the podcast 4 times now! Not only that, she truly helped launched the podcast as my first real guest for episode 3. Well, she’s back on the show because after releasing her first book The Year of Less, she has a second book that’s recently come out called Adventures of Opting Out. As a short bio in case you haven’t followed Cait since she started her original personal finance blog (Blonde on a Budget) in 2010 like me, she was able to pay off all her debt, do a 2-year shopping ban, and eventually published her first book in 2018 sharing her journey in 2018. To me, she always will be one of the OG personal finance bloggers in Canada. Now, she’s moved away from personal finance and into the intentional living and minimalism space, but she still talks about money quite a bit in her books (which I thoroughly enjoy). In her first book, she wrote about her life and experience doing her shopping ban which changed her life forever. For her new book, Adventures in Opting Out, she writes about how to opt-out of things (or relationships) in order to live a more intentional life. I think a lot of the time we think of adding things to our life, instead of taking things away or just doing things differently. Not only that, if there’s ever been a time to take a moment and reassess your life, 2020 is it! And Cait’s latest book is such a great way to get inspired and start thinking about how to change your life so it aligns better to what you really want it to look like. That could mean making shifts with your finances, changing your career, opting out of some social media platforms, leaving relationships that don’t add value to your life, or moving to a new place to live. I hope you really love this episode because I had such a great time recording it. I had an even better time reading Cait’s book, so make sure to check it out for yourself! For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/255 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the Mo Money Podcast. This is episode 255, and I am your host, Jess Moorehouse. Welcome back to the show. So excited to share this episode with you. As I teased in last week's episode, I have my friend Kate Flanders back on the show. She has been on the show, well, this is her fourth time, so she is now the reigning champ of being on the show the most of anybody. Yeah, she was on episode number three. So she was my first real guest because I was episode number one, just like me talking. Episode two was my husband, just so I can kind of ease into it. And then episode three was Kate. And she's been on the show twice after that. And this is her fourth

episode. If you want to check out all of those episodes very easily, the best thing that you can do is just go to this show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 255. I'll include links for all of them. But in case you're not familiar with Kate, well, she was actually one of the first personal finance bloggers that I started reading back in 2010. Oh my gosh, 10 years ago. What? She is an author, a podcaster, and also a traveler, which you'll kind of get the sense of that in her latest book, Adventures in Opting Out. But her first book, which is a bestseller, is called The Year of Lesson. It came out in 2018. I had her on the show to talk about it, so make sure to check out that episode.

But how it kind of all started, you know, just a little Cole's notes. I'm like looking on her website. I'm like, why am I looking on her website? I know who she is and I can just tell you what her bio is. So she started her personal finance blog called, oh, am I going to remember? Oh yeah. Blonde on a Budget. That's what it was called. It was called Blonde on a Budget. And it was to kind of document her debt-free journey. She had gone to debt and she wanted to dig herself out of it. And so she documented her kind of journey and her thoughts and tips on her blog. And then once she paid off all of her debt, then she kind of realized she needed something else to work towards because I think this is so important is a lot of people just focus on debt repayment, but they don't think about what happens after. And that's

exactly what she experienced. She was like, what do I do now? It's very easy to get back into debt when all you're used to is just debt, debt, debt. And so she did this kind of crazy thing called a shopping ban. She basically had a very interesting system of not spending that much money. Basically, besides her necessity, she just did not shop because that was kind of her trigger or her kind of issue. That's why she got into debt in the first place. And I think she actually did it for two solid years. And it definitely like the whole story of her doing the shopping ban and paying off

all this debt kind of went viral. And she got a book deal and she created her first book, The Year of Less, and it came out in 2018. And that really was kind of an amazing book, a memoir kind of of her journey and her life. So you can kind of understand the background of how she got into debt and why she started the shopping ban, how she really changed her life so you can kind of understand the background of how she got into debt and why she started the shopping ban, how she really changed her life completely so it was more intentional and just, you know, she could feel good about her money for once, basically. And then once she came out with that book, you know, then she was like, hmm, what are we doing now?

And she started doing more self-discovery, doing more traveling, and again, kind of pursuing this life that is all about minimalism and intentionality. And that's where she got the idea for her second book, Adventures in Opting Out, kind of basically a book about how to live differently, but in a way that makes you feel the most fulfilled, which I think, you know, it's just such a great book. I know you're going to love it. And you're going to love this interview with Kate, but it's just like such great timing because it really is the book. If you have been thinking a lot about what am I doing with my life? Is this actually what I want? Am I happy? What kind of direction am I going in? Where do I want to go?

This is a great book to kind of continue that conversation and make you think about a few things. And she's actually inspired a lot of people with her books, both books, to make some big changes in her life, which we talked about in this interview. Anyways, enough of that. Let's get to that interview with Kate. But before I do that, I just want to share a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Passive.

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want to check out. Not only that, Passive is free to all Questrade clients. Passive helps you keep a balanced portfolio in your brokerage account with ease. It's like being your own personalized robo-advisor. Simply choose how you want to invest your money and Passive will help you stay on target with just one click. Speaking of clicks, go to Passive.com slash MoMoney to learn more or to sign up for an account. And that's P-A-S-S-I-V. Once again, to learn more about how Passive can up your DIY investing game, visit Passive.com slash Mo Money. Welcome back to the Mo Money podcast, Kate. I feel like this might be number four,

I think, because you were number, so remember, let's take it back in case anyone listening is new. You were episode three. You were like my first real guest because it was a solo episode with me. Then I had my husband and then you, you were my first like real guest, which is wild. 2015. In your parents' basement. In my parents' basement. That's amazing. Oh my God. That's so embarrassing. But yeah, it was in my parents' basement. And I feel like we were recording and sometimes like parents would

be like walking upstairs and I'm like, shut up. We've come a long way, my friend. We certainly have come a long way. Oh my gosh. And, and then of course you were, why were you on the show a couple other times? I think once before your book came out and then when the year less came out and now you have a second book. So here we go. Number four. Okay, great. Wild. I know. It's crazy. It is so crazy. And I mean, and also like, damn, you have a second book already. Like that just seems we were, I feel like we were just talking about your first book and now here we are with your second, how exciting. And personally finishing it, loved it. Great time in my view. Like it's like the perfect like i was reading

it and i felt calm and everything in this world is making me super anxious and that's like anxiety has been like the theme of 2020 for me in my life and i'm sure lots of people can agree your book made me so relaxed and also just like fantasizing about opting out and traveling i'm like oh my gosh this is a world i would like to live in okay Oh, okay. Well, the calmness is a nice, like that's nice feedback. Yeah. It put me at ease. Like I was honestly sitting on my couch, having a tea, you know, the leaves are changing outside, reading your book. I'm like, this is what I'm talking about. Yeah. So it's a, it's a great book, I think for this kind of season where we're still dealing with this world, weird pandemic world, but also we want to start thinking about the future and travel

and also rethinking about what is our life? Have you been getting, from people who've read the book, being like, oh my gosh, this is what I needed to hear at this moment in time? Yeah, and I will say it has also been followed up occasionally with like, and here's a drastic thing that I did. Oh, and you're like, oh, are they good or bad? And I quit my job and you're like, oh, okay.

Do you need that job though? That was the first message I got. Yeah. Well, hopefully they're like, you know, had an emergency fund and they made some plans. She sent me the best message. It was a girl in Australia. She said she read it and the very next day she went in and quit her job. But she and so at first I'm reading I'm like, Oh my gosh, we're in a pandemic. What are you doing? But then she said

your first book helped me pay off all of my debt and build up a six months emergency fund. And she said, so reading this just gave me like that extra push to take the next step for something else that I want. And yeah, I've had friends say that they've broken up with their partners. Reading it, you're like, yeah, I don't like you. And also the pandemic really makes you rethink do i like you yeah yeah i'm like when i say partners i'm like multiple friends have broken up with their partners and shared it with me after oh damn saying yeah your book was like the final push i'm like oh my god opting out of this relationship oh my god yeah but no i'm i'm i have gotten that feedback i think that Relationship. Oh, and in this pause, just started to question some things. And or question like, oh, like, maybe there are pieces

of this that I don't hate, what would I want to bring forward? Or no, I hate all of this. So what are all the things I want different as we can slowly transition to something different. Yeah, there's been a lot of that, which was weird. I mean, you don't write something ever to be, or I didn't write it thinking it would ever be more timely. But I remember actually having incredible anxiety at the start of the pandemic, because we were like finishing edits, sending it off to print. And I had so much anxiety. And I remember saying to my editor, how dare I? How dare I release this book in a time like when people are dying and we don't know what's going to happen? And she said, like, let's just carry on. And if it still feels okay,

we can publish it. And if we need to push it, that's completely fine. Like it's not a big deal. And she was like, actually, I think yours is a book that has become more relevant since you wrote it. So you can't you can't plan for Yeah, yeah, this definitely, you can't play plan for it. And so it's kind of like, interesting, but, you know, good timing. And for me, I've been spending 2020 as that year to hit pause and reassess and also just feel and think a lot more because we've had so many personal conversations. And I'm like, I feel like I'm always go, go, go. And I know in the middle, I know this isn't how I want to live my life, but I don't know how to stop. And this kind of forced everyone to take a, you have to stop. You have to like everyone, the world stopped. And that's the, it's never really happened in our

lifetime, at least that the world had to stop and kind of take a moment and think about what's going on and what do you want? And, and what, what I appreciated with your book, and you kind of mentioned this throughout the book, you know, cause book, because I read self-help books and I think lots of other people, there's so many out there and yours is different in that it isn't like, do this, do this, do this. And also this is the right way. And you weren't pushy about, your book isn't to be like, I want you to opt out or you need to opt out. It's more like, because it's not, it doesn't have to be a dramatic situation. Because even in your story that you share in the book, it's like, it's not dramatic. It's just, this is your life and this is what you're living.

And I think that's what was relatable to me because I'm like, my life is not super exciting or dramatic. Most people's lives aren't super exciting and dramatic. And that's actually a good thing. That being said, we may want to change a few things or pivot. It doesn't have to be. And as much as I love Cheryl Strayed's Wild, love that book. We don't all need to quit everything and go on a huge hike. We don't need to do that in order to have a big life change that'll be positive and impactful down the road. It doesn't have to be this big, huge moment. It can be little things too. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it makes sense then just to sort of define what opting out is, which is, um, you know, actually even when we worked on the subtitle for the book and we settled on like leading an intentional life, but it also could have just been like a guide to changing

paths in life because that's, that's really what it is. The reason I opting out felt so important is because it's especially written for people who they are the first one that they know to make that choice. And so again, it doesn't have to be a big dramatic one. But just, yeah, if you're even the first person to say, like, I'm not going to use social media anymore. Like if everyone else uses social media, people are kind of like, how do you do that? I'm like, good luck with that. Yeah, it's like, what is that about? And people don't know what to do. And also, you don't know what it's going to be like, because you don't have anyone else to look to. But they can be bigger or they can be like, I've had a lot of friends in sort of the FI space be like this totally resonates for us. Right. Because there's so many people who don't understand what they're doing or they're definitely the first, you know, in their family or friend group to to go that route.

So it could be bigger and it could just be something affects you socially more. Like I talk about not drinking, not drinking is certainly an opt out in in a way. I'm almost eight years. Yeah, actually, when this comes out, I'll be about eight years sober. And yeah, just like that's an as a real opt out, especially to do in your 20s. I think it's a little, little less complicated in your 30s. But when you're in your 20s, you decide to stop drinking. That's a big thing. So Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, you talk a lot about your sobriety and drinking the book, which I appreciate because I feel like that's a conversation more and more people are having because it has been normalized for, I mean, generations like drinking. It's no big deal.

But we know it's a big deal, especially, I mean, for me, when I hear of people now that I'm in my 30s and they're acting or partying the way they did in their 20s. I'm like, that's not normal. We gave you a pass in your 20s for whatever reason that society just does. In your 30s, you need to look internally. That's a problem. It's not cute anymore. It's actually kind of scary and I'm scared for you. And so, yeah, I mean, that has nothing to do with where we're going. But that's really resonated with you. And so, yeah, but that's, I mean, that has nothing to do with where we're going, but you know, like that's really resonated with me. And even for me, it's like, I was never a big drinker, but definitely in my circle in my twenties, it was very normal

for people just to drink lots of beers. Now I'm like me and my husband, especially, we just have lots more conversations about like, you know, let's maybe not have any alcohol really in the house or let's, I'm not going to drink this week or this month or whatever. And again, like we don't drink a lot. It's not like we drink more than like two drinks or whatever. We're not getting drunk, but it's like, we realize, especially during this time where we're at home and we're feeling a lot more and really reassessing things. We're like, I don't feel good physically, mentally. I'm tired. I have trouble sleeping. Like that part about your friend who has trouble sleeping. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Like my husband's like, he's had a lot of trouble

sleeping and he doesn't drink really at all anymore. And he's had a lot. I mean, now he's like a grandpa and goes to bed at like nine and then wakes up at like six and I'm like, okay, so this isn't, now we're on different paths. Cause I'm like, I like to go to bed late and sleep in. But, uh, yeah, it's just like, this is the year to really think about what do we want in life and what do we want to, and I think also when you were working on this book, when you said opting out, I always kind of thought it was a taking away, but not necessarily. It just means like, like going in a different direction. And I think that's also really important to, cause it's, it's not about just taking away, like maybe it is, but it could just be like adding something new in a different direction.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I think like, um, that's probably what, what 2020 has looked like for me, or I'd say the second half, I'd say the first half was the anxiety half. I was just panic for six months. And then like, as, as we've settled into it, I'm, I'm at a much different place right now where I'm asking myself questions that I've never really asked myself before. Like, I don't really have any like celebration rituals or just like rituals in general in my life. What would it look like to be someone who had a bit more of that in my life? And I'm not talking about like big things. I'm like, what if I was someone who on Friday nights, like that was the one night of the week I got takeout. And then it's like this nice thing to

look forward to on Friday nights. Right? Like how, how great is that? Or right now I'm doing something for November and December where on Sunday nights I'm making dinner and watching a holiday movie. Also because I'm just like, I need more joy in my life. Oh my gosh, I am all about the holidays this year. Also, we're not going back home for Christmas and so we're staying here. And oh, we're getting a new tree. I'm going to decorate. Like I'm going to go so crazy with everything Christmas this year because I need some joy and some magic in my life.

Yes, yes. And so these are little things that I'm just like you said, like adding I was not the kind of person who ever did this stuff before. Like, I loved holiday movies. I watch all kinds of holiday movies. But but to make this sort of like intentional practice of Wow, what would it be like to have something to look forward to every week? I've not been that person before. And that's, that's been neat. So that's, this is new for me. There are very little, I guess, opt-ins or something, but yeah, like it's, it's been really nice. And it just, and also because this is a personal finest podcast, I realize that everybody, but you know, Kate, she's been on the show so many times. You do talk about money in the book, which I think is, you know, someone who likes to kind of talk about like the,

you know, the practical side of things. I think a lot of people don't think that they can make a change or change past because of their financial situation. But as you've kind of proved, well, you used to be in debt and you got at it. Like it's, it's not about a, again, a drastic, immediate change. Sometimes these things are a progression. So for you to be able to kind of have the flexibility to travel and live in different places, you had to do some work before. And getting out of debt, living more intentionally and living on less, hence the first book. And it's a progression. And now you're able to kind of, you know, so it's like you were always kind of on this path, but it can take years. I

think sometimes when you read a self-help book, it seems like, oh, you know, I should expect an immediate change. But we know what, that's not life. Life is like, it takes a while. It can take years for you to really see where you're going. You might just be in the thick of your woods. And I also really like, I'm not a hiker. And I feel like when I was reading your book, I'm like, I feel like at one point you did ask me to go on a hike and then I bailed. Oh, I think so. Maybe not. Maybe that's someone else. Anyone who's ever asked me for a hike, I've definitely bailed. I hate hiking, but I really enjoy how you weaved in, um, just like kind of the, the progression of when you're on a hike, there's the, I don't know what the terms are. There's the peak, there's the, the

base. I don't know, but there's a little, there's a nice little graphic that shows you and you really tie everything into it. And I actually, as someone who hates hiking, I'm like, Oh, hiking sounds so nice now. But also, I really like how you just kind of weave that all together. I feel like everyone can kind of relate to it. But yeah, you talk about so many amazing things in the book. I have so many, I don't have so many questions, but there's so many little things that I want to talk about.

Especially what's so interesting is like, I was talking with you while you were writing the book. So I'm like, oh my gosh, I remember when you went on that trip with Kara. That's fun. Um, and just like the different, uh, you know, people you were able to meet in all your travels. Um, I, I want first, I think we haven't even touched on this. What inspired you to write a book about this? Cause the, the first book it's, it seemed like this is kind of, you know, it makes a lot of sense for you to write The Year of Less because this was your journey. You were documenting it on your blog for years and years and years. Everyone kind of expected like, oh,

yeah, so this fills in lots of gaps. This is something new, something kind of familiar. This is totally something different that I feel like you haven't necessarily shared at all. What kind of inspired you? Yeah. Yeah. And that makes me so happy. I had someone, I've had a few people actually, but I had someone send me a really nice note at the beginning saying that she read the book and the first thing she noticed was sort of like my growth as a writer. And I thought that's amazing. And as a writer, like that's incredible feedback on its own. But what helped me come up with the idea for the book was two things. Like one was all of the events that I did around the year of less, I was really paying attention to like, not in the first few events, but I did about 20, like in person, like, you know, at a bookstore or library or things like that.

So I did about 20 events. And I noticed in all of them, I was asked the same kind of question at every single event, which is always like, or along the lines of, you know, did you lose anyone? Did you lose any family or friends? Did people stop hanging out with you how did your social life change a lot around like what does your family think um and those were um it's funny like now I think back and I wouldn't have expected questions like that for something like oh I'm gonna not shop for a year which is what that first book was about. I know. I'm just like, why would anyone be like, I don't want to hang out with you because you don't shop or you don't spend as much money as you used to. But I guess we're also in a little bit of a, you know, we were in a personal

finance bubble where it's like, well, everyone, everyone's sort of like that. So I'm like, I guess that makes sense. If you're just a regular person, you decide to make this big, I'm not shopping anymore. I think some people would be like, uh, you know, questions, or maybe I don't want to hang out with you anymore. Yeah. Well, and now that I've had more time to sit with it, I'm like, I get it. And also reflecting on that year, there were certainly, you know, conversations that I was no longer a part of because people were talking about shopping. I remember specifically at the company that I used to work for every time that I would go in for a visit, I feel like every single person's computer

screen like had work and then the next tab was shopping. Wow. Everybody. Like, so I'm like, it actually does make sense. Like we're kind of always browsing without even realizing it. I browse all the time to this day. I don't buy, but I don't really buy because I am cheap. So you got your eye out. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yes, I got a lot of those questions. And what I noticed is that it wasn't until like maybe the fifth or sixth event, I noticed I didn't like my answer. Because I was not lying. You know, I would say things like, well, you know, your friendships might change a little or like what I just said, you know, you might have fewer things to add to certain conversations if people are talking about stuff like that. But I wasn't saying the really,

like the really real thing, which is that, yeah, you are going to lose friends. Like if you decide to live differently in some way, then everyone you currently are relating with, like you will lose some people. Yeah, you will. And that is a harder and more complicated answer to give. And also, I think, I think in the in the first handful of events, I was just trying to be like positive and hopeful or something. And also, it's it's also a thing you sort of see in kind of the, like the minimalism or simple living space in general is just this messaging that like, when you just like choose to live differently, like your life gets so much better. And I just thought like, I was noticing I was uncomfortable. I just did not like that I was only saying this much. Right. And so I kept sitting with that. And then I would say like a little more at every event that I did after that. But I just kept thinking, like, why is it so hard to say the truth? Like, why is it so hard to just say the words like yeah you are gonna lose

people and so that was one piece and then the second piece of it or how the analogy came into it was um literally that I was just out for a hike in Victoria there's only a couple of like local mountains here and I was just out for a hike I've done this hike I don't know 200 times probably at this point maybe more like at this point, because it's a quick one, like it's 25 minutes up kind of thing. And so, but even in that, even in saying that it's a quick hike, there's still what I noticed is how many times I was trying to talk myself out of it. Like, like not doing the hike while I'm doing it just to not finish. That's me every hike, which is why I don't like it. Yeah, no. And so I'm like, I would constantly because I was out there by myself. So constantly, like the voice in my head was just like, you can just turn around. Like you can just

go home. No one's gonna know. No one's gonna have any idea. And then and then there's this other voice being like, it's like not that hard. Like you'll literally be done in 15 minutes. Why would you give up now? Like you're fine. You're totally fine. And I thought, like, I bet no one knows that this is what hiking feels like for me. Like I bet everyone just assumes that I like love hiking and it's so easy. Oh, I think when you look at hikers, you're like, they look like they're having a great time, but they don't. We have no idea. I'm like, of course they have an internal dialogue of like, oh, I got to get through this or, oh, this is kind of uncomfortable. Of course.

Hiking's not like, like just fun all the time. Like it is physically hard. Totally. And I'm like, and there are probably people who, who don't struggle that much with it. But I think that someone like me, I grew up with a lot of people-pleasing and perfectionism and stuff like that. And I just genuinely think that for people like me who, you know, you have real fears of what it means to fail, like to try and fail. Yeah, that that it is harder even, because then you're also having to add or undo all these like extra stories that are going on. And I just thought we just need to have more dialogue about this stuff. We need to talk about the fact that like self-help books are not and cannot just be like here are the 10 steps and then everything gets better and instead we need to say yeah like there are going to be ups and positives to this of course there are because why else would you change like why else would you

make a change if it was not going to be positive in some way but also along with the positives there are going to be the negatives like if you If you decide to change your life, parts of your life are going to change and it may be negative. And we just need to add that. We need to add more honesty and more nuance. And so it's not just like black and white. We need to show the grayscale of what actually happens here. Yeah, I feel like from the number of self-help books I've read, it is just focused on the

positive, what you can achieve, how you can change your life and it'll be so much better. Rarely do they talk about the natural things that are going to happen that may be kind of not so great, not so comfortable. And which is kind of in my mind, almost dangerous because then say you are on that journey to like, you know, improve yourself and something does happen, you, you think it's your fault. It's, this isn't supposed to happen because it didn't talk about it. So I don't understand. You think it's a failure, but really it's actually just part of the natural, you know, kind of the hiking process of going up and down until you eventually get to the peak. It's supposed to,

it's not just a, you know, um, straight line. And, and that's the hardest part too, when you're trying to achieve something, no matter what it is, like it's, if you don't expect those like things to possibly happen, it's so much harder to overcome and not turn back. Yes. I mean, like that, that sums it up so much is, is expecting, like, if you decide that you're going to change some aspect of your life, you have to expect that it's not all going to be positive. And you have to get to a place where you can like tell yourself, I can deal with it. I don't know exactly what's coming. It may be awful, but like I trust that I can figure out how to deal with it.

But just to add to what you're saying, like the biggest thing or I think the biggest piece that's missing from self-help books in general is really the conversation that, like, we are all coming at these things from very different places, right? And so we cannot say that, like, what is going to work for me is going to work for you, because we don't know that. I can't say that. I can't tell anyone that like, if they do exactly what I did, that that's going to work out for, I don't even know if it's going to work out for me half the time. I know. And that's the thing I, in your book,

you mentioned that you don't like saying, if I can do it, you can do it. And I've seen a lot more conversations like that this year, especially surrounding money. Because I mean, in the personal finance space, a lot of the people get the most attention for achieving something amazing and being like,

you can do it too. And that always irritated me because I'm like, not necessarily. You don't know what my obligations are. You don't know how much income I have coming in. You don't know all these other factors. So you can't say that if I were to use your roadmap, I would get to your destination as well. The most I say when I'm like, I can do it or I did it, you can do it too, is more like, I learned how this works, like how personal finance operates. If I can learn it, you can learn it because it really is just like, it's available and it's learnable. But I can't say to anybody, I was able to achieve this, you can too. Because I'm like, I'm also still on the journey. I'm like, I'm still figuring this out. And every year I'm like, oh, we did another year. Okay, let's do another. It's impossible to

tell anyone. And for me, it's difficult too, because I've been doing this for so long. Now people are reaching out to me and looking up to me like, oh, you've achieved this. Can you tell me your secrets? And I'm like, I don't have secrets. This is just like struggle and just like not giving up. But I'm like, I don't feel comfortable telling you how to succeed because I'm still figuring that out myself. And also that everyone's definition of what success is or what the end goal in one change or whatever is like everyone's definitions of that are also going to be different. I know. Yeah. There's no, yeah, it's not, there's no such thing as cookie cutter. It's funny. Cause I just, before this was editing a podcast episode that will probably be released by now,

but talking about how we need to get rid of this idea of cookie cutter, personal finance advice, cause it's so harmful. And that's kind of what I felt you talked a lot about. We need to get rid of cookie cutter, self-help advice. It's not like take the inspiration or take some tidbits. But just like we say personal finance is personal self-help, self-care. That is also personal, too. We need to really get more personal into it and not be like this works. Everyone just meditate for five minutes a day and you'll be cured. Like, I can't say that that's going to work for everybody. Well, or like, yeah, even people talk about like minimalism or decluttering. I'm like, we cannot be selling that as the solution to everybody. Like, we can definitely say,

let's examine our spending habits. Like, that's a thing. And that's a very personal and more vague direction to take advice. But it's like, you can analyze your spending and see if you're happy with it. I cannot tell you that if you declutter, first of all, that it's going to do anything great for you. But I also can't say that that is the way to live because not everyone is even in a position to do that. Right? So we can't, we cannot be just saying like, Oh, just throw all your crap away. And everything's great. Like it does not. You're're like what do i need that stuff i know that was the biggest thing i couldn't stand from the marie kondo um i didn't write her book but her the tv show that was on and like she was like getting rid of all the stuff i'm like oh my god but like what if you need that though and like

sometimes you do need it like the books wasn't that the big conversation we're like i'm not getting rid of my books i'm like fair enough um so i feel like that was the missing piece from that show because again it was a tv show so they had to make it a certain way but I'm like, fair enough. So I feel like that was the missing piece from that show. Because again, it was a TV show. So they had to make it a certain way. But I'm like, they should have had more conversations about but this is personal. So it's okay if you want to keep something. It doesn't have to be black and white or, you know, extremes. And that's my thing that I feel like I've been talking a lot more on the show. Like I love having different people sharing their stories and information on the show. But I am so over the idea of extremes. You have to do an extreme in

order to achieve something great. It's like, no, you don't. It's, it could happen, but I'm not an extreme person. I've never done anything really extreme besides like quitting my job. But that wasn't like a, it wasn't like your, your story of, you know, I went in the office and I just quit that day. I'm like, I was thinking about it for years. Right. And I made a plan and it was actually very strategic. Well, and that is actually, I mean, I talk about that idea in the book or just the general sense that the length of time it can take to even decide to opt out can actually be longer than anything related to the opt out will take. Like, I have been in the same position where you you think about something for six months, a year longer, like I think about, even with not drinking, the first time I thought

about that I'm not going to drink one day, I was probably like 20 or 21 years old. And I remember saying it to an ex boyfriend at once. And so I must have been like 20 or 21 years old. And I remember saying it to an ex-boyfriend at once. And so I must've been like 21 or 22 with him and, and saying something like, yeah, like I'm, I'm not going to drink when I'm older, I don't think. And he was just like, that's stupid. Everybody drinks. And that's why he's an ex-boyfriend. Yeah, definitely an ex. Yeah. But I remember like having that thought and yeah and like even things uh definitely like around quitting my job to be self-employed um even when you're self-employed like sometimes it takes a long time to quit a client or something like that right oh my gosh

or just change what your business is or what you're doing yeah it can take a very long time. And a lot of steps can go into it, depending on what it is. Yeah, it's it's not I, I and that felt so important to talk about to you, like right up front that the the reason it is intentional, or that it all of this stuff, it feels like it's you're living a more intentional life is because there's actual decision and like thought process that goes into it. So it is not just, oh, that sounds good. I'm going to make an impulsive decision. It is actually like sitting with your feelings, asking yourself how you feel about it. What are the steps or the things that you would have to do to get comfortable to make that choice? What are the fears you'd have to work past? How

are you going to work through them if they come to life? Even if you just you're just giving yourself preliminary answers, because you're not going to know everything that's going to come up. But if you can give yourself like a preliminary answer and get to a place where you're like, okay, I now feel a little more ready than I feel scared. So I'm going to at least try this thing. and to plan. So like, you know, you share in your story that you went to the UK and you didn't really book anything. And then you're like, oh, everything's kind of booked up. Maybe I should have planned a little bit more. But again, you kind of did what most people would do, like the eat, pray, love, go to this place and I'll figure it out there. That's the exciting part. And sometimes it literally just doesn't work that out that way because you need to book in advance

because, you know, people are booking things, you know what I mean? So yeah. Or also like for me, I just recognize like my mental health actually will not work like that. It's very stressful to live. Let's go to like, it sounds so exciting. Like let's go here, let's go there. But I'm like, that's what me and Josh did when we went to Thailand like seven years ago. And he was having a great time. I was stressed out because I felt like we never had a home base because we were literally a week here, a couple days here. And I'm just like, what if we don't have it? What if we don't find a place to stay? Where are we going to sleep? On the street? You know, I was, it was not for me. I like the idea of settling in a place for, and that's something that now we're dreaming when this is a new world and there's a vaccine and it's safe to travel again.

Yeah. Like staying in a place for a month and enjoying that place instead of go, go, go. Yeah. My fears around it. Like first, I think I just did fantasize about that. Like I wanted to be able to be the spontaneous person. Like I wanted to be able to do that. And then being there, I'm like, oh my God, I just don't sleep if I'm like that. Like, and, and I actually want to enjoy myself and and also because I I'm not there to be a tourist typically I don't travel typically to like see a bunch of things and cross them off a list so and because I like also it's important to just say at the moment anyways I'm self-employed and and so I can be anywhere why am I in a rush I used to have one of my fears around it around booking things was like, what if I don't like the place? Like, what if I don't like the city? And then

it's like, okay, if I'm there for a month, and I don't like it. Okay. I'm sure I'll be fine. Literally, if I can find a half decent coffee shop. Now, we're really talking in like pre pandemic. No, right? If I could find like a half decent coffee shop, I'm fine. Like I could deal with it for a month, but I used to have so much fear and like just around things like that. And so that's why I wasn't booking things. And then just thought I have to get to a place where I'm okay with just being somewhere for a month. Maybe I won't like it and I'll be okay.

Like, and I'll get to say I spent a month in this city. Cool. Okay, great. And I think another thing that you kind of touched on, which I think is so important, is leaving room for some spontaneity, though. So you can plan and that's important because, I mean, we always need a plan. But when you also leave, so like not planning things to the T, which is what I used to do for trips.

We have to go here. Here's a spreadsheet of all the things. I have a guidebook. So stressful. It feels like work. It feels like you have to do this checklist. So when you get home, you're like, we went to all these things. Who gives a crap?

It's like, leave some room. We want to go to one or two things. That's it. And then we'll leave, you know, room. So if a friend's in the same city we can meet them up if we walk by something and we're like oh i didn't know this was here let's check it out it's really about rethinking how we have wired things because of what we think that's how you're supposed to do this yeah and even the way you're describing that i'm like it's it's cool and

interesting for me to reflect that that is also just the way that I live, that I don't have a crammed schedule, I always have space. But it's also the way that I budget. Because I don't, I don't do like strict budgeting the way that I used to in. And again, I preface this of like, I've been talking or taking my finances seriously for like 10 years now. And so I don't budget strictly of like, at the start of the month, here's my strict budget. And here's what I'm trying to stick to and get mad at myself if I don't hit my numbers but that's been 10 years in the making but I now um I track my net worth every month and and I just trust myself with my spending like I'll still look at things I pay off cards like all throughout the month and like different stuff like that but um I just trust myself. But I look at my net worth. And if something's gone off, then I can be like, hey, hold up. Yeah, you're like, we're not

up or we're down. What happened? Yeah, like, oh, that's like a little more than I expected. Or like, it's a little lower than I like, where did that come from? And then I'll like reassess from there. But that's, that's been years in the making and I'm so glad that I'm at that place with it. But it sounds like you, yeah, you did the work in advance and you've tried a lot of different things and figured out what works for you. But also it sounds like you've got, you know,

you do kind of the automatic saving, investing, like you're always putting away money for that kind of stuff. It's just when it comes to like the actual spending portion, you don't budget it to like only this amount on groceries, this amount on coffees. Cause yeah, I don't, I don't do that either. Cause like we don't spend our money that way. We're not always going to spend the exact same amount every month on specific things. No, no. There are months that I buy things and there are months that I don't. Like I've had people ask if I still do a shopping

ban and I'm like, well, no, no, no. You can't live in a shopping ban for years and years and years. Like that sounds like you're on a diet for years and years and years. It's, it's eventually not going to work. Okay. Yeah. So I'm like, that's, that's not how I live, but there are probably months where I don't buy anything and I just don't even think about it. Oh, especially during this pandemic, there's been a few months where I'm like, wow, I spent like no money that month. And I didn't even, I didn't notice. And that's...

Those are great months. Yeah, those are great months. Usually I'm really busy with something. But that's also good too. It's taking your mind off the shopping. So we need to not have the shopping tabs always open on our browsers when we're doing something. It's not going to help anybody. I want to talk a little bit about some of the things that you did to kind of opt out of things that have improved your life just so people can kind of get a sense of what they can expect in

the book and maybe some things that they can think about. I know one thing, because I remember us having conversations about it, is you opting out of certain social media accounts. So like you're not on Facebook or Twitter. I think you're not on Facebook or Twitter. I think you're not on anything besides Instagram, right? I only use Instagram. So what was that, which is so fascinating because I still have a love-hate relationship with Instagram. I just find, I don't have, I don't take photos.

So maybe that's the problem. I don't, I mean, you know, so that's something like, but I find it so fascinating and freeing. Whenever I do, like, I'm not going to check my phone today or not going to log into this account. I find it so fascinating and freeing whenever I do like, I'm not going to check my phone today or not going to log into this account. I find it so nice. So tell me a little bit about that. Cause that does seem like a big, especially in our society, people can get judgmental being like, why are you not on this account? It doesn't make sense for your brand. You're, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's been long enough now that I don't really hear about it ever. Or, or also things like I remember just flat out telling my publisher just like, No, I, I had everything. And but Facebook, I remember,

I think it was like 2015. Around there, I remember I took about like eight or 10 months off Facebook. And so it was total experiment. I'm just like, what does this feel like? And I loved it. I did go back on it. But the whole time I was just like I don't actually like using this like I always feel bad after I spend way too much time on it and like nothing that good or or even interesting happens here um and so in at the of 2018, I decided to stop using it. The timing of that was weird and it was not planned at all. It was actually just a couple of weeks after the year of less had come out. And I don't think I deleted it at first.

I think I just stopped using it for a while. And then, yeah, I was just like, I don't need this. Like, I don't actually need this. I will say, I think for that and for Twitter, because Twitter was similar. I used Twitter way more than Facebook. I think it was especially early blogging days. That's how we like all talk. Yeah, that is. Yeah. Right. Like, that's where everyone talked about all kinds of conversations. It was very chatty and social and it was great. And I had no intentions of leaving Twitter, but really noticed, I'll say in the last four years, which I think a lot of people can understand what the last four years held. The last four years, Twitter really changed. It became

incredibly divisive and draining and just like mean. And even though I still felt like I was in a bit of a bubble, like it felt mostly okay. I just felt like every time I went on, all I saw was people picking fights with one another. And I just thought, why? Like, A, I don't, I'm not interested in the drama. Some people really enjoy it. I'm not interested. I don't want to follow people's drama. It's like a complete waste of time. So I just thought I'm gonna get off of here. But it does feel important for me to say like, there is certainly no question in my mind that the fact that I did use more mostly Twitter, because with blogging, it was such a way for us all to be connecting in the beginning.

There's certainly like, because I did use it it for years and we were so active and talking and connecting all the time. I definitely know that those things helped me build like friendships and connections that I wouldn't have had if I had just come out of nowhere. But that's also true for blogging. Blogging for me was very similar. I responded to every comment that came through and I built lots of connections through that. And so it feels important to say for someone who's just starting out, I don't know if you just start Twitter today what that even looks like because I haven't used it in two some odd years now.

But I can still see why it's it's in people's heads it's like something that could be helpful it did help me it had absolutely helped me build friendships and connections and then when it became too negative it was just like and I don't need to be here like and and no one should subject themselves to places that only feel toxic like it, it's just not, why would you continually put yourself into a space that's unhealthy? And right now, for me, Instagram still feels okay. I'm actually also really liking this year that it's become a bit more educational, like of a platform and people sharing a lot more. Yeah, it's less the, I think think the Instagram of a few years ago where

people would just take photos of their outfits or like, it was more, I feel like materialistic. And again, it could be like how we all, and I think this is also changing. We're realizing we need to kind of curate who we're following and who's on our feeds. And so I did a big cleanup in the spring. I mean, like, why am I following you? I don't enjoy your content. You don't make me feel good. I only want people who inspire me, who make me feel good. And I, that's why I actually, like, I'm more of a lurker quite on, uh, quite honestly on Instagram. I'll share stories, but it's more like, I like seeing actually the people's content. And that's because I was intentional on who I want to have in my, you know, my view. Yeah. Yeah. No. So like Instagram right now still feel safe. And I'm like,

who knows in two years I might be like, I'm not using anything. I don't, I was about to joke and say like, baby, I'll go back on everything. I'm like, I actually don't think that's true. Yeah. No, I feel like once you realize how great it is not being on those, you're like, why would you go back yeah I totally yeah I totally get that but I but I did go back to blogging and that's a different one sorry I haven't checked your blog no I mean like why would you though I don't know would you though I've only written a few posts so far but I'm just yeah it's been like interesting to uh go back but again like that's a safe space because I create that space.

It's on your terms, your platform. Exactly. Yeah, man, man. When did you start your blog initially? Was it 2010? October 2010. Whoa. 10 years ago. 10 years ago. So much can change in 10 years. Including your net worth. Including your your net worth so i want to kind of end things off just because number one everyone needs to grab your book because it's it's like such a good book i was telling you i can't remember if i was recording when i said this but i'm like it really relaxed me like i'm just like oh with all the chaos going on in this world it was nice to it just felt like you were really in the moment. Like I was in the moment reading it. You can just kind of think about what do you want in life?

And you just kind of have a very nice way of kind of weaving it all together. And lots of like, I was, I'm like, I have to go back and write some notes because there's lots of things I'm like, huh, I need to think about that more. Like, cause you just touch on so many different things, not just about your own path, whether it's your personal life or your career, but also like your relationships, your friendships. These are all things kind of like a budget where it doesn't sit, your life doesn't stay the same. You always have to kind of take some time to reassess how are we doing? Do we need to change some things? Do we need to opt out or opt into some

things? So I think that's so special. I forget the original point of that. I think you were wrapping up. I forget the original point of that. I think you were wrapping up. Typically when I have guests on the show, I have questions, but I'm like, I just read your book. It's all fresh in my mind.

We're friends. I just want to have a nice, natural conversation. But I guess, yeah, I just want to tell people to grab your book, but also I'm like, this is such a great,

like, I guess, opportunity or just a, I don't know, thing to kind of, to so many people I talk to, they're like, I want to make a change or I want this and that. I don't know where to start. This is a great way to kind of get those juices flowing to start thinking about the bigger picture things.

Because I feel like it is actually still a good tie into just the world of personal finance. Because like what I tell everybody, it's like, it's not just about the numbers or setting goals and budgeting. It's like, what do you want in life? And then how can we, what are the tools that we can use to get there? And this is kind of that beginning part. I think everyone needs to take some time to really do that. Okay.

Well, I won't argue with that. I won't argue with that. Yeah. Before I let you go, though, what is one thing that you'd like to kind of leave listeners with? In a way, that kind of has nothing to do with the book. Honestly, just like, I hope you're taking really good care of yourself. Oh, I like that. I think this year has been a lot for everybody in very different ways. And some people are doing okay. Some people are freaking thriving in this, right? And, and no matter what it is, I hope that you're taking care of yourself.

It's just been that, that kind of year. So yeah. Yeah. Self-care. We need to all really lean into that whole idea of self-care. And, and one last thing I'll kind of mention, cause it just kind of popped into my mind. I feel like you talked about in the book how sometimes people like this is totally me think of self-care or just like taking time for yourself or doing things that are slow as laziness or you're not being productive because we're also in this world that has hustle culture in our faces all the time. It's actually so important to take that, to have that space, to take that breath and let it kind of marinate. We can't just be on autopilot or just like go, go, go at all times. You can't. It's not going to work out for you.

No, no. It makes me think actually, I'll just share like the last sort of ritual or thing that shifted for me this year. First of all, 2020, I've done more therapy this year than I've ever done in my life. Me too. Like, like combined, I've done more this year. And but something that I added after the summer, because I noticed that even with therapy, what I was doing was it was just like part of my schedule that day. Right? So it's like, well, I've got this, this therapy, this, this. And so starting in September, I just decided to make it so that after therapy, the rest of the day is a day off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And what a freaking game changer. First of all, because the the depths that I go to in therapy, it like immediately shifted. And the work that I'm doing is so much deeper, because I have capacity not only to cry a lot and probably be a bit more exhausted after, which I am.

But also just a game changer in terms of, like you're saying, like creating space and to even if it's only that like half a day or whatever, like I typically have therapy in the afternoon, to take the rest of that day off is just like my time to, I'll go for a walk, have a bath, read a book, talk to a friend. Like I'll turn on music and dance, like just like do lighter things. Yeah, it's been huge this year. And it is really important. I think 2020 has forced us to sit still, which can be very disruptive and also hard if you're feeling feelings for the first time, really. And that's where I think like when I say taking care of yourself, it's

because this year is a lot. There's a lot happening. There's a lot happening. Yeah. Well, we, things can only go up like at what point in, in, if you were to, um, consider the year 2020 as part of the kind of hiking, you know, visual, what part do you feel like it would be at? Cause in my mind, it's like, we're at the bottom. We're going to only go up from here. I think we're at the base okay good I do and so the base of it being um we are and I I say that also because I'm like it could sound scary to people because then it sounds like you're just at the beginning of a very long haul but I see it more as like the base is the period like you're really sitting and questioning and and then so like 2021 maybe you'll start taking

first steps towards something a little bit different and it's not that everything is going to change magically overnight um but that you'll hopefully we'll all be able to collectively like take some steps towards something different yeah that is such a nice note to end this off on. Thanks so much for being a guest on the show once again, Kate. Also, since we mentioned your Instagram, where can people find you on the gram? Oh, just at Kate Flanders. Oh, that's easy. And then, yeah, your website is just kateflanders.com. Okay. Easy peasy. Awesome. And of course, the book, I feel like not once have I said the name of the book. I'm obviously going to say it in the intro, but it's Adventures in Opting Out. And what is

the subtitle for it? A Field Guide to Leading an Intentional Life. Oh, I love that. Well, thanks again for joining me. Thank you. So nice to see you and talk again. Okay. So that was episode 255 with Kate Flanders. Make sure to check her out at kateflanders.com and follow her on Instagram at Kate Flanders and grab copies of both her books. Adventures in Opting Out is her new book and her original or first book is The Year of Less. Both highly recommended books by me.

Loved them. Highly recommend. Great Christmas presents. And of course, I'm giving away copies to her books, so many more books. I'm going to share more details about that. I'm going to share some very important and very important announcements in just a hot sec. Just want to share a few words about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Momenty Podcast is supported by Passive. Are you tired of spending time on spreadsheets to manage and

keep track of your investments? Passive can help you invest, rebalance, and keep track of your account so you can get rid of your spreadsheets. Once you set up a portfolio, Passive will do all the calculations to keep it balanced, send you notifications when your portfolio needs attention, and you can even place your trades across multiple accounts at the click of a button. Another bonus, Passive is free to all Questrade clients. To learn more about how it all works and to sign up for an account, visit Passive.com slash MoMoney. And that's spelled P-A-S-S-I-V. Once again, to learn more about how Passive can help lighten your load as a DIY investor, visit Passive.com slash whatever the number of the episode, or you can find them all at jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast. That's where you can find all of that. Like I teased, giving away her book, Adventures in Opting Out.

So if you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest, again, the link will be in the show notes. You'll see I'm giving away her book and a bunch of other books. Basically, any author that has been on the show in this season of the podcast giving away their book. So you can enter for all of them. And then I'll be mailing them out. I'll probably be mailing them out in January, quite honestly, because this podcast is going up until crazily like December 23rd.

So I've got a lot. I've got a few more episodes to go. So get ready for that. So that's exciting. So as I kind of mentioned ish, I've got some big things, big changes. I feel like this happens every fricking December. I just make some really drastic changes. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's because my work kind of slows down. So I have a few, you know, moments to breathe and think and reassess. And so one of the things I have been thinking about doing for the longest time, but actually kind of, you know, got the, I don't know, balls to do was yesterday, or I'm recording this on Tuesday. Monday is when I kind of got the idea. I'm like, you know what,

this is it. I'm going to do it. And so I announced in my Facebook group, the Money Life Balance Community that I've had since February 2016. That's insane. Almost five years I've had this Facebook group. And I love it. I absolutely love it. But also it's just for the direction I see my business, it just doesn't fit anymore. And I honestly feel like I've kind of not been as present in the group as I could be just because I'm doing other things. I have other projects that I want to focus more on. So I've decided to close down the group. Now some people have, when I would do this, it would be the end of December. So the reason, yeah, kind of is just like, I just kind of want to move on to the next chapter.

And so it kind of feels right timing for me to just close this chapter. Some people have kind of asked if this group could continue without me. So I'm kind of looking into what that may look like. So I'll let you know. But just know that I will no longer be kind of the host of this Facebook group as of the, you know, as of the new year, basically, it's just time for me to kind of do something new. So I know lots of people are sad about that. It is like I've honestly, and I don't think most people realize this. I really have taken a lot of time and energy and like curating this group to be, um, unlike other Facebook groups. I mean,

if I want this to be a group that has like 10,000 or more members, I could have easily done that. Um, but I didn't want it to be just a group with a ton of people and not a real clear vision and focus. So it was very intentional on who I actually let into the group. It was all about positivity, no judgment, helping each other, no self-promotion because that grinds my gears when someone wants to get into the group and just talk about their new whatever. It's like, listen, I don't even self-promote in this group.

Okay, so let's not do that. But as much as it's been so great to grow this group to about 2,600 members over the past five years, it's just time for me to say goodbye and hand off the reins possibly to someone else or just shut it down completely. We'll see what happens. So in case you're like, huh, oh, I was thinking about joining. You can still join. I'll let you in. But I just don't know what the future of it will be. But I won't be part of it. Just so you know. But with that said, I highly recommend that you join my email list. That is how you kind of stay in touch with me and all the things that I do. Just go to jessicaborehouse.com

slash subscribe to find more info about that. That will be very helpful. Some other important announcements. So as I mentioned on a few other episodes, I am closing the doors on my two online courses, Fix Your Finances Masterclass and Investing Foundations for Canadians. And actually, as of now, the doors are closed. They're done. You cannot sign up anymore. The reason is I am revamping them to relaunch in January. And I'm currently working on the investing course first. And then I will work on the kind of financial planning course second. And I'm very excited. I'm already, I'm just like having so much fun.

It's going to be so, so great. So you'll find out more information. Again, if you are on my email list first, that's who I kind of talk to first about these things. But again, I'll share them on social media when both courses are live. With that said, I'm not, and I feel like I've mentioned this as well, I'm not taking out on any new financial counseling clients. And I honestly don't know if I ever will exactly. My kind of vision is to create this financial

planning program. So it's not just a course, but it's more of a program that includes one-on-ones with me. But it's just something I'm slowly working on. But yeah, right now and for the foreseeable future, I'm not taking it on any new clients. That being said, because I get emails and messages all the time about this, if you are looking for a fee-only financial planner and you want someone right now and maybe the course isn't a good fit for you, cool. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash recommendations. I have a ton of fee-only planners I've listed there.

They are for Canadians only. But if you're American, I'm sure I can, you know, figure out some sort of recommendation for you or some, you know, there's probably a place I can point you to, but I mainly deal with Canadians. So, um, so you can find more information there. Let's see, what else do I have going on? Pretty much. Yeah. I'm just going to be spending the rest of this month, you know, putting out the last, uh, episodes of this podcast of season 11, working on updating these courses. And I'm going to take a good week completely off, not completely off because obviously the podcast, the last podcast episode is the 23rd. Well, I guess it's like after the 23rd,

then a week after that, I'll take a full week off off because I never really do that and just like enjoy the holidays a little bit. That's what I'm really, really looking forward to. I guess that's it. I feel like those are kind of the only huge, huge announcements for the moment. I will have some more, but again, get on my email list and you'll find out first because some things pop up and I don't mention them on the show because of timing. Because again, I record the intro and outros sometimes the day before I release the episode, but sometimes a week or two. So it really kind of depends.

All right. That is it for me. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'll be back next week, next Wednesday with a fresh new episode. And yeah, have a good rest of your week. Stay safe, stay warm, and I'll see you soon. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.