More Money Podcast - 259 Money Conversations to Have Before You Commit - Wallace Howick, CPA & Author of Love and Money: Conversations To Have Before You Get Married

Episode Date: December 23, 2020

Talking money with your partner is never easy. Wouldn’t it be great if there was a book with conversation starters and examples to use to get things going? Good thing Wallace Howick, CPA thought just the same thing and wrote his book Love and Money: Conversations to Have Before You Get Married. But the conversations he shares in his books can actually be applied to so many different relationships, such as when you’re dating or common-law. And the thing is, although technically it’s not difficult, most couples have no idea where to start. Luckily in this episode, Wallace shares his expertise and insight with his 30 years of being a Chartered Professional Account and working with a wide range of clients. This book is such a great read (and not too long), if you’re looking for a way to approach the subject with your partner, maybe put this episode on in the background or grab a copy and try out some of his conversation starters for yourself! For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/259 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the Momente podcast. This is episode 259, and I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the, or welcome to the final episode of season 11 of the show and the final episode of 2020 of the Momente podcast, which is, oh, you know what? Yeah, let's do it. Let's end this year, move on to the next year. But I'm going to end this year or this podcast in 2020 with an amazing episode. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. You're going to love it. I've got Wallace Howick on the show. So for over 30 years, Wallace has provided advice as a chartered professional accountant to a wide range of

clients, including large financial institutions. And he's also volunteered continuously throughout his career in the design and teaching of professional development programs for CPA Canada. And for many years, he has contributed to the CPA Canada literacy program, including as plenary speaker at the Managing Money Conferences. I have him on the show because he has a book out called Love and Money, Conversations to Have Before You Get Married. But quite honestly, I went through the book. This is a book that you can read not just before marriage, but even if you are married or if you're in a common law relationship or if you are single, but you want to know how to have a conversation about money with your future partner. It's really well written,

very easy read. It's not very long, which I kind of like sometimes. You're like, just give me the good stuff. And it doesn't have to be a 500-page novel. And I'm really happy to have him on the show because I feel like this topic, I really haven't had too many people on the show, quite honestly, to talk about relationships and money. And this is, I'm going to have another guest on the show next year. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. It's not just about relation. Anyways, I'm not going to, it doesn't matter. Why am I even saying this? It's not even a done deal yet, but it's going to happen. So don't worry. But it's just like such an important thing that we all need to know. And it's a very common question I get from couples being like, how do we manage our money together? How do we have these conversations,

especially if you haven't done it for a very long time? It's not easy. And he really lays it out for you and gives you suggestions and also talking points. So this is a great book to pick up. And we're going to talk all about it in this episode. But before I get to that episode, just a few words I want to share about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Mo Money Podcast is supported by Passive. If you've been a long-time listener of the show, then you know that I am a big fan of passive investing. I'm also a big promoter of DIY investing because you can save a ton of money on fees, which over the course of decades can make you thousands of dollars richer. Well, if you're a DIY investor and are looking to ditch those homemade spreadsheets, there's a new portfolio management tool called Passive you'll definitely want to check out.

Not only that, Passive is free to all Questrade clients. Passive helps you keep a balanced portfolio in your brokerage account with ease. It's like being your own personalized robo-advisor. Simply choose how you want to invest your money and Passive will help you stay on target with just one click. Speaking of clicks, go to Passive.com slash MoMoney to learn more or to sign up for an account. And that's P-A-S-S-I-V. Once again, to learn more about how Passive can up your DIY investing game, visit Passive.com. Welcome to the show, Wallace. I'm so excited to have you on. Well, thank you for inviting me.

You're so welcome. So this has been a topic I've been getting a lot of requests to dive into on the show, which is basically relationships and money. I've only done a maybe handful of episodes on this topic, but you wrote a book specifically on it, so we can really dive deep into it. So you would be the expert to go to. It's called Love and Money Conversations to Have Before You Get Married. It's very nice and short to read, so there's no excuse that people can't pick it up and get through it and like, you know, a sitting with their partner. And what I love most about it is it's comprised of the questions we need to ask ourselves and also our partner to really get to the root of what we need to know. And I think that's like the biggest thing is couples don't know where to start. And you start with asking

questions, these questions specifically. So I appreciate that. It's a good point of departure in the sense that in order to have a constructive relationship, information is important and process matters. We all know that marriage is rich in hope and commitment to the future. But realization of that future requires an understanding each of the other and using that understanding to work together. And one of the things that became very evident to me is very few people understand their own attitudes, beliefs, and values about money. And it's not just one member of the couple, it's often both. And in that void, how do you create the necessary understanding? So you're right. The premise of the book is to help couples understand how to talk about money. And one day, well, first, before we really dive in, because I definitely do want to

dive in, what inspired you to write this book? Because it's very specific. I feel like lots of personal finance books touch on it, but they don't just talk about it the whole time. What inspired you to create this? Well, like so many things, it's juxtaposition. I had read an article many years ago about the divorce rate in Canada and the time it was rising and thought to be somewhere in the range of 35 to 40%. And that struck me as surprising, to be honest. And so the question was why? Next event in the chain. I was in Calgary one night speaking on tax and investment planning. And there's always a formal question period when I do that. But very often folks will stay after to ask individual questions they didn't want to ask in the public forum. Last lady of the list or line of folks that came to ask questions after allowed that she was facing an ugly divorce and she had a tax question around that. And she said something that really struck me. She said, we rarely talk about money. And when we do,

it becomes an argument that degrades into sullen silence and we never make any progress. I feel like that's a common thing with lots of couples. And it struck me that maybe, maybe couples don't know how to talk about money. Next event in the chain, why would that be? And I grew to believe over time that many of us do not recognize our own attitudes, beliefs, and values around money, many of which we acquire by almost osmosis without really being aware of them. And the family is a huge influence in that process. But they operate below the surface. That doesn't mean they're not real. It just means that there's an almost a reaction, an automatic gravitating to financial conduct without really thinking through why. So that fascinated me. And I sort of carried the book around in my back pocket for a lot of years.

And a couple of years ago, an old friend said to me, are you ever going to write that book? And so I did. I felt I had to decide whether there was something constructive that I could add to the discourse. So I talked to a lot of people in the course of writing the book just to try and get a sense of whether I had something to contribute to the discourse. Because if young couples can get started on the right foot, they have a lot of years to benefit from getting started on that right foot. Oh my gosh, so true. And I think this is such an important thing.

And I think people know it. I feel like we, in articles and even books, people know that money is an important thing that they need to discuss in a relationship. People just don't know how, and so they don't. Exactly. And that's why some of the processes I've set out in the book, I thought might be helpful to bridge. It's almost a chasm. So the book's intended to help you, the reader, discover and explore your own attitudes and values and understand your partner's attitudes, beliefs, and values about money.

Totally. And I think that's a really important point to make is I think sometimes, especially when we're talking about this topic, usually there's like one person in the relationship who's kind of the driving force. There's usually one person, hey, we need to talk about this. We need to read this book and get some guidance, or we need to see a financial planner. There's always one person and then there's the other person who's kind of along for the journey. Oh, yeah, I guess so. And I feel like some, and this is something that I've had to learn in my personal life for working with couples too, is when you're in that partnership, it isn't just about you

being the leader and then you're like, oh, no, my partner has to get their act together. It really does have to be equal. And you really do have to because you touch on this in the book. You really do need to not just speak your mind and share your opinion, but you really need to listen. And I think that's like such a hard lesson for people to learn. It's like, no, no, no, you need to listen. You need to be quiet and listen because I feel like a lot of couples, they'll talk to each or talk at each other,

but they won't actually really receive what the other person is saying. And that's a really good point. That's one of the most fundamental chasms that folks fall into is if you want to be heard, listen. You know, when we talk about process and whether it's this process or any other process, if I try to impose the solution, I've got this, this is what we're going to do, that is destined for failure, that behavior. The solution, my determination of the solution is not going to work. It's not sustainable. Yeah. You have to come at it, you know, and again, being the kind of personal finance person in my relationship and just also in my career, that was something that I had to learn because I'm like, why is my husband so resistant to us talking? Probably because it's pretty intimidating to be

in a relationship with this gal who loves to talk money. And so that took a long time for us to kind of come to a place where I needed to check myself and listen more than talk. When it comes to process, I find there's a good maxim. And that maxim is model the behavior that you would like to elicit. And if you want to be heard, listen. I share your view. Now, one question I get pretty often, and I'm sure you get this often as well, is when is the right time to bring up the topic of money? Because a lot of people I think are like, should we wait until we move in together? Or is it when we're dating and not living together? Is it after we get married, right before we get married? When is the right time? The discussion is often triggered by life events. Maybe we're moving in together,

or we've been living together and now we're going to get married. But the first conversation can be subtle and quite seemingly unimportant. And that first conversation might be one turns to the other and says on a very early date, how are we paying for this dinner? So there are small cues that we may not recognize in the moment, but that start to formulate how this is going to go. I would say actual formalized, let's sit down and have a chat, tends to be around big events like we're going to live together or if we're living together, we're getting married. But there's all kinds of cues along the way, I think. Yeah, I think one like kind of key one when I discovered we, me and my husband were dating is planning a trip together because, you know, those can be costly. And you're like, how much are we going to spend?

And how much are we going to both contribute? And how does that look like? And that was like the first like, oh, okay, we really have to talk about money. Well, and it gets to be, and it starts to raise really important issues about how we allocate things. Like let's assume, for example, for the moment that in that discussion, you made more income than your husband. Should you, by virtue of that, pick up the bigger share of the trip? Or will you have a big student loan? And that's actually augmenting your income earning power in the long run. So even though I make less, maybe we should split it evenly.

There's a weighing up process there. Yeah. And one thing, I think the other kind of big thing for us was definitely going on trips was kind of the big kind of, you know, we had some actual real conversations about money, but that definitely when we moved in together because I'm like, okay, well, we have to split the bills. You know, we have rent together. We have utilities together. We have some subscriptions. How are we going to do this? And I think at that point, a lot of people who are in that relationship aren't sure, is this time that we get a joint checking account? When do we do that? And do we have to do that? And I feel like those kind of conversations have evolved a lot. I mean, I feel like in the past, even like this is like kind of funny, but when me and my husband got married, I, maybe this is a few years after we got married, I made, you know, I think

it was a blog post and a video about this is how we, you know, manage our money, just so you know. And the comments I got were so fascinating. A lot of people were like, I can't believe you don't completely combine your finances. We pretty much do things separately, but then we also have some joint accounts. We made a system that works for us, but it was so fascinating. People's expectations or they just assumed once you get married, you should do this. But I know you talk about in the book, there's no right or wrong way, but I feel like a lot of people don't necessarily think that way. The right or wrong way is the way that works for you as a couple. Increasingly, my sense is that, I mean, there's two obvious choices.

Both our pays go into an account and the bills get paid from that account. And we each transfer out from that joint account, for lack of a better word, to our savings. Or maybe we've agreed on a $200 a month unaccounted for allowance. No questions asked, no explanations needed. of how is, okay, you pay the bills and all contribute to your account in an amount that pays those bills. Or we each transfer, our pays don't go in to a joint account, they go into separate accounts and we each have automatic transfers to pay the rent and the utility, groceries, and so on. Those are slightly different. What matters is which one's going to work for you. And I guess that's a conversation in itself, what makes us comfortable. And I think a lot of people

are like, I'm not comfortable combining my finances with someone. Even if we're married, I think a lot of people like to maintain their independence, which I totally get. Yeah, absolutely. And that's not a new phenomenon. I know women who are not in their early 30s, who this book is largely targeted at very young couples, who is significantly older than that. And she and her husband, who she loves dearly, I know these folks, been married for 25 years. Her pay goes into her account and she sends money to pay the mortgage and the groceries to her husband. Who's an accountant does the accounting? But I think that's right. I think there is this need for financial independence. And, you know, to some degree, that's always been a problem. Older women who are in their 50s will remember the days when they didn't have a credit card and didn't have a

credit rating. Don't ever want to be in those shoes. Yeah. And that's, well, that's like, I think that when I see, you know, clients or they're a couple and everything is going on to, you know, the man's credit card and it's like, oh, no, it's a joint credit card, but really it's a spousal card. So it's really his credit card. I'm like, we need to make sure you both have your own credit cards, your own credit scores, because, yeah, we don't want you to be in a position where maybe the guy dies and you have no credit. We don't want that. Exactly. Exactly. So you really kind of

go through in this book, which I appreciate. And I think a lot of people sometimes don't really know what the kind of sequence is. What does a financial plan look like? I think a lot of people, I mean, I've had a lot of people on the podcast, so I feel like people have been listening for a while. They kind of get it. But that was one of the hardest things for me to really wrap my head around in my 20s is like, people always say this word financial plan. I have no idea what the heck that actually looks like. And you really walk through, these are the patterns. These are the things you need to do. It's about goal setting. It is about budgeting, which I know lots of people hate that word. You've got to put that in the book. It's

about really understanding what your expenses are. But I appreciate how you kind of laid it out because like, and I'll tell everybody this too, this isn't just a how to do this, this in this book, it is kind of written in a narrative. So you can kind of put yourself in the shoes of the couple that go through all this, which I think is less intimidating and more kind of understandable. But with that, you know, lots of people like, where should we start specifically? Like, what is the most important thing we should do right off the bat? Well, I think building a plan is a four-step process. And each step in that process seeks the answer to a single question.

So the four steps are, where are we now? Where do we want to get to? How do we get from here to there, and then checking back in, how are we doing. So the first step is where are we. And that step is an information gathering step. You know, what's coming in, what's going out, and where is it going. And without that information, you don't have a starting point

on the road. You wouldn't for one minute get in your car, head for a destination without knowing where you were starting. And so this becomes the point of departure. Where are we? What's coming in? What's going out? And that's not as laborious as some people think it is. Given today's world, you can go and get your credit card statements and you can come up pretty quickly with the recurring monthly expenses, get a pretty good sense of what you're spending on food. And if you gather up, say three months of credit card statements. And if you're a big debit card user, your bank statement, and you can gather that information pretty quickly. You may have to turn a little bit of extra thought to the things that are not recurring monthly, like car insurance

or home insurance. But an investment of a little time will give you a pretty good starting point. And it's important to make the investment to have that starting point. I think one thing I hear often is, isn't there a way to automate this? Because I feel like in this world, especially with all the new kind of fintech popping up, which I think is great, a lot of people are looking for the easy way. Isn't there a way I could just set it and forget it, make it easy? And you know what?

Like you said, I like how you kind of said it. It's like, it's an investment in yourself. It's like, you do need to, sorry, if you want to make change, you have to, you can't just flick a switch. It doesn't work like that. And that's why personally, I'm a bit old school when it comes to things

like crafting a budget and tracking your spending and your net worth. I use a spreadsheet. I just download my transactions, like you kind of mentioned, from my bank accounts, plop them in a spreadsheet, take a good look. It's not complicated math because I have tried to use those automated programs. And you know what happens? I never look at them. Your point is an important one. It's really important. Yes, there are all of these apps, and I'll make no comment on any of them individually. But your point is a really good point. There's an intimacy that you get from pencil, paper, and a simple spreadsheet that just does not, in my experience,

flow from some of these more sophisticated apps. In fact, we know that roughly half of Canadians have a budget, a little less than half. About one in seven Canadians does what you and I are talking about. Let's get out the pencil and pen and the spreadsheet. About one in five Canadians who have a budget use, you know, one of the more sophisticated apps that are out there. And at the risk of sounding like a Luddite, I think there's a lot of value in terms of the intimacy and understanding you get from going longhand like you and I do. But that's not even the budget process yet.

We're just collecting information at this point, right? So the next step is say, okay, we know where we are. We're here. Where do we want to be? And so the next step then is setting goals. So what can we agree on is important. Is saving important? Paying off, hopefully, paying off credit cards is important. You know, paying off the line of credit, saving to go back to school. What are our goals? And they have to be shared goals.

Can't just be my goal. It's got to be a shared goal. And that conversation, how that conversation goes, becomes really important. And I'll give you a simple example. In the book, I chose to use the literary platform of my having conversations with a young couple, Mark and Michelle. And one of the very first things I suggest they do, and I give them a little questionnaire to help them out, what are your attitudes, beliefs, and values about money? And the very first question is, what was the attitude? What was the value? What were the beliefs around money in your family? Was money tight? Was money a worry? Did money generate arguments among your parents? How did you learn about the practicalities of money? Did you have an allowance? If you did, did your parents have the 3S system, three jars, save, share, donations, and spend?

So in order to be able to have a conversation about goals, you have to have a conversation about your attitudes, beliefs, and values about money. And so the book has this little questionnaire. And I recommend that young couples, each member of the couple, answer that questionnaire individually, and then compare answers. Because it's one of those things too where I feel like so many people have been in a relationship for a while and they've never had that discussion about beliefs and values and habits and how that's really impacted how they talk and think and just act with their money. And I appreciate you going to that because I feel like a lot of people don't really go into that. And it's so important. I mean, I see that with couples all the time. I'm like, you know, they'll be speaking and I'm like, okay,

I already have a sense of what your backgrounds are and why a lot of people have arguments because they're coming from very different backgrounds and perspectives. And it's important for, you know, we don't all have to be in the same background to, you know, like we don't all have to come from like, you know, for instance, like typically you'll have a specific kind of mindset. If you come from a low income household, you'll act a certain way with your money. When you're an adult, you don't have to have someone who's identical to you, but there needs to be some sort of understanding and respect to be like, okay, we're different and we need to understand, oh, that is why he acts that way, or this is why she acts that way. I absolutely agree that that is imperative, that that understanding

come, and come fairly early. The understanding can evolve, the quality of that understanding. But there has to be a beginning point. And a really good beginning point for that conversation is if we're living together or we're going to get married, it has to be around goals. And in the context of goals, let's understand where, to use the colloquial, where each other come from. Yeah, it's super important. And I think you can, you'll avoid a lot of arguments because you'll be more understanding. And I think that's where the arguments kind of stem from is not, you just don't get where the other person, you know, you're like, I just don't get it. Well, equally important, Jessica, is I understand myself better. The process I outline in the book, hopefully, will cause each member of the couple to surface their own beliefs, values, and attitudes.

Because as I mentioned earlier, I believe they operate below the surface. Doesn't mean they're not real, but they operate below the surface. And yeah, like you kind of mentioned, we touched on, most of us have no idea until we have that conversation or kind of look at some of the questions you have in your book. I mean, for me, it honestly took me years to really understand my own background and why I feel or think certain ways about my money. And then same for my husband. I mean, we talk about money pretty often. And it's only honestly in the last four years that he's really opened up and been comfortable. And we've been together for 13.

And I think part of that is we didn't really know how to have the conversations about it. And also like respecting, I know you talk a lot about compromise. And I think that's also a very important thing. Sometimes I think we get really stuck into our individuality. and it's like, well, you are in a partnership. There's two people in here. And so it doesn't necessarily mean you're giving up, but it really is about where do we want to go?

We've got to kind of put it with the couple or the partnership first. Where do we want to go as a partnership? Exactly. I absolutely agree with you. So before I let you go, when you are like, let's pretend there's a young couple listening right now and say they are thinking about getting married. Maybe they live together. They've never really had a conversation about their finances. What are some key things they need to put on the table so they both know? I mean, I know a lot of people don't even really know what their partner earns or don't even know

that their partner has debt or they haven't revealed that they have debt to their partner. The first step in the process, I think, is to say, are we in this together? And if we are, we should have a conversation about finance. And if we're going to have a combination conversation, it has to be full disclosure, both in terms of, I mean, I can't expect full disclosure from my partner and not reciprocate. And failure to do that will undermine respect one for the other.

So in the book, I try to help people get started with that conversation. What do you do if you find that you're open to it, but your partner isn't? Is there any way to change their mind or to get them to be open? Well, that's a challenge. That's a challenge. And I think the way to begin the conversation is, do we want to have this conversation? And if your partner says, you know what, I don't think we need to have the conversation. That's important information for you. That's very important information. reluctant partner. The partner who thought this was important gave the book to the reluctant partner and said, can you just have a read? Can you just have a read? The other partner did and said, okay, I'm willing to try. So again, it's, and this time it's not content, it's process. The solution I think we should have is not going to work. It goes back to your earlier point, Jessica, you have to bring along

your partner. And one way to do that, a low key way to do that is to say, here's some information, you know, what do you think? Yeah. Because Because very much, and I hear this, there will be one person who's actually just interested in money and like, yes, let's do this. And the other person is like, I've never talked to anybody about money. So the idea of talking to you, my partner, who we're intimate with, it's terrifying. It's actually terrifying. I mean, that's definitely what I've seen. That's a hurdle my husband had to get over because they don't talk about money in their family. And so it's a hard hurdle. But I think the important thing that I've realized is it's

not something that can be done right away. If your partner isn't where you're at on your journey, it'll take time. And that means sometimes years. It does. I mean, a relationship is a process, right? And processes, as you rightly point out, take time. They take investment. It's not just the passage of time. They take thoughtful investment. And they take thoughtful investment, not only in content but in process if you're going to have a conversation model the behavior you'd like to to elicit and to your point earlier be curious why does my partner think that's important? And help me to understand. Help me to understand, partner, why that's important.

And then I think it's equally important to check in. So I hear you saying, and that engenders a certain respect, that process. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I guess listening to an episode like this is just like put it on the background. What a great way to start a conversation. Oh, that's interesting what they're talking about. I always find it's a great kind of subtle way. You're like, oh, that's so weird.

I was just tuning in and this is what the episode is about. Jessica, it's the first time in my life that I've ever had my thoughts offered for background music. I know. How nice. What a nice idea. Well,

I think your book is just a great, like easy way entry point for couples where, point for couples. They're kind of also like the idea of going to a financial planner together. It's like, whoa, that's a big step. We're not there yet. We need to have these conversations first and see what we can do on our own. Your book is such a great kind of entry point into that. So I definitely recommend people grab a copy. If people want to reach out to you or follow you or ask you some questions, where can they find you? They can reach me at, I'll give you one of my email addresses. It's wallashowick at wallashowick.com.

That's W-A-L-L-A-C-E-H-O-W-I-C-K. wallashowick at wallashowick.com. I'm always interested in hearing from folks. Yeah, I bet you are. And I'm sure you're going to get a lot, you know, as this book, you know, more people pick it up, you'll probably get more and more stories for maybe a future book. So thanks so much for taking the time to be on the show. It was a pleasure having you. Well, thank you for having me. And I enjoyed our conversation, Jessica. And my genuine hope is that in some way it's helpful to your listeners.

I think it will be. I think it really will be. um but his book love and money conversations to have before you get married you can um pretty much find it on amazon you can find it anywhere um but of course i'm also giving it away for free so um this is your last chance last chance i'm going to be drawing winners later tonight like a midnight tonight or tomorrow really i mean let's be honest i'll probably be in bed by that oh well i know i'm a night owl i don't. Maybe I will drop people tonight at midnight. So don't delay. But I'm giving away copies of books for all the books featured on this season of the show, including Wallace's book. So get on it, jessicamorehouse.com slash contest, or check out the show notes, jessicamorehouse.com slash 259. Other things I've got to share, because this is the final episode,

the final way to communicate with you until the new year. So stick around, just have a few words I want to share about this episode's sponsor. This episode of the Momenty Podcast is supported by Passive. Are you tired of spending time on spreadsheets to manage and keep track of your investments? Passive can help you invest, rebalance, and keep track of your account so you can get rid of your spreadsheets. Once you set up a portfolio, Passive will do all the calculations to keep it balanced, send you notifications when your portfolio needs attention, and you can even place your trades across multiple accounts at the click of a button. Another bonus, Passive is free to all Questrade clients. To learn more about how it all works and to sign up for an account, visit Passive.com slash MoMoney.

And that's spelled P-A-S-S-I-V. Once again, to learn more about how Passive can help lighten your load as a DIY investor, visit Passivecom slash mo money. Okay. So as I mentioned, go to jessicamaraz.com slash contest to have your last chance to enter, to win one of the books that I'm giving away. I also mentioned in last week's episodes, because there was two, make sure to check those out, that I was doing a giveaway on my Instagram page that is now closed. So I've already wrapped those up. And how you can find out if you're the, well, you would have received an email if you were the winner. But if you want to find out who did win, follow me on Instagram, number one, at Jessica I. Morehouse. But also make sure to get on my email list, jessicamorehouse.com

slash subscribe. That is how you find out all of the things as they happen on my email list. And I will be soon, very, very soon, sharing more details about my upcoming revamped online courses. I can't wait to share them. My investing course will be available first. Then I'll follow that up with my second course all about financial planning. What day is it also? It's the 23rd. So also too, just to remind you, I'll be exiting my Facebook group, the Money Life Balance community on December 30th, uh, handing over ownership to Alyssa Davies, um, who is from the blog behind it, Mixed Up Money. So, you know, get in there if you want to have a conversation, if you want to like, you know, I don't know, ask me a question

in the Facebook group. You only have a few days left to do it. You can find it at facebook.com slash group slash money life balance. But yeah, I'm going to be opening up new Facebook groups for my upcoming courses. So I can't wait to share more details about that. Of course, I'm going to wait until the new year to do that. So just hang tight. But this is also a great opportunity to, you know, I don't know, hang out, relax, take care of yourself. I hope you are, you know, I love that you're listening

to this episode. But what I'd highly recommend because it's what I'm going to be doing over there, kind of the next few days for the Christmas holidays is detox, like digital detox is what I'm talking about. Not just a detox. I don't know how to do real detox. Digital detox. Delete all your apps. Sign out of your accounts. Don't look at your phone for a few days and just chill. Read a book. Watch a TV show. Do some yoga.

Play chess. I bought a chess board. Like, did you watch The Queen's Gambit? Because if you did, then you probably also bought a chess board like I did. Will I actually have the patience to learn chess? We will have to see. Probably not. I'm very impatient when it comes to board games, so we'll see. But that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to shut everything down for a few days and do absolutely nothing and try to learn chess successfully. Maybe not, but we're going to have

some fun. So yeah, I really want to say thank you so much for listening, supporting the podcast, sharing it with your friends. There's so many people that have started listening to the show because of the pandemic, which I know is but it makes me feel good that you were looking for a resource to you know, hey, how can I learn more about money so I can have a better situation for myself and you found my show and you like it and you stuck around. That really means a lot. And so with that being said, next season, season 12 of the show will be available. I'm going to start putting out the episodes Wednesday, January 13th will be, I guess, the premiere date of season 12 of the show. Can't wait to share some new episodes. As always, DM me on Instagram or Twitter, or you can send me an email,

jessica at jessicamorehouse.com. If you have an idea for a guest or a topic, let me know. I keep them in a folder. And then every time I'm like, okay, it's time to get new guests, I look into my folder to see what do people want to hear about. So I try my best to get what you guys want to listen to. So let me know. Anything else do I have to share? I mean, I'm only going to be like off the air for a few weeks anyway. So it's not like anything. It's going to be crazy. It happens those few weeks. I think that's kind of it. I think that's really it. I'm excited to take some time off, even though it is just like self-isolating at home with my husband, not going home for the holidays this year to Vancouver, which is really sad. I'm just doing some FaceTiming with all my family members and friends,

and that's just how it is. It's a weird Christmas. It really, really is, or whatever you celebrate. But I feel like this is also just a great opportunity to take a step back and just realize all the good things, you know, what are we, you know, all the good things that we have in our life, what should we really focus on being grateful for, focusing on, you know, because even in darkness, there's always a little bit of light. And so that's what I've actually been doing a lot of this year is realizing, wow, I'm really,

you know, fortunate to, you know, live in Canada and to have supportive family and to be able to work from home already. And that was already kind of set up from years past and, um, and have wonderful listeners like you on the show, keep on making this show better and better. So lots of things I'm sure we can all be really grateful for. So really just wishing you a safe and happy holiday season, uh, especially, uh, really safe and happy new year. Let's celebrate the new year because I think it's going to be great. I think, man, I'm sure if you listen to my final episode from last year before 2020, I'm like, this is going to be the best year ever. Well, I can't always make predictions that are accurate, but I think next year is going to be a good one. So

let's be hopeful and just, uh, yeah, have some good, good vibes going into the new year. So thanks again for listening. Um, I, yeah, I mean, I feel like I've said thanks for listening a bajillion times, but I mean it, um, have a great holiday season and new year, and I'm going to see you back here January 13th with a fresh new episode of the Mo Money Podcast. Can't wait. Can't freaking wait. See you then. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.