More Money Podcast - 274 How to Become a Master Negotiator - Jean-Nicolas Reyt, Negotiation Expert & Assistant Professor of Organizational Behaviour at McGill University

Episode Date: March 31, 2021

Negotiation is such an important part of setting yourself up for financial success and helping you build wealth over time. Just think, by negotiating your salary a few thousand dollars higher at the beginning of your job, that could have a major impact on future bonuses, raises, and salaries! Unfortunately, most of us weren’t taught how to negotiate and the examples we see on TV do not work in the real world. That’s why I have Jean-Nicolas Reyt on the show, who is a negotiation expert and Assistant Professor of Organizational Behaviour at McGill University. He teaches students every day what to do, and not to, when negotiation in every situation. Unlike what we may think, it’s not about being aggressive or manipulating the other party. It’s about doing your research, being confident in what you’re asking for, and ultimately finding a middle ground in which you, and whoever you’re negotiating with, find a happy outcome. As mentioned in the show, Jean-Nicolas has so many great tips and ideas on this topic, so make sure to subscribe to his newsletter Master Negotiators linked in the show notes. For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/274 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is Episode 274. And I am your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show. So excited for you to hear this episode because I freaking loved recording it. And I hope you're excited because honestly, every time I do an episode on this topic, negotiation, people love it. People love it. And I think it's because we all have a thing or two to either improve on or learn. And I have a real live expert about negotiation. He's a professor actually on the topic of teaching negotiation. He's a management professor at McGill University. He teaches negotiation specifically to his students. He also, if you really want to dive deep into the world of negotiation, he has his own newsletter,

which I'll include in the show notes of this episode, or you can find it at rate.net. So it's R-E-Y-T dot net slash newsletter. Again, I'll just put that in the show notes so you can easily find it. But yeah, we have such a great episode, because not only does he really know what he's talking about, but he talks about negotiation in a way that I think more more of us are comfortable with this type of negotiation. When you think of the term or even the the act of negotiation, don't usually think about some movie where someone's like aggressive and gruff and it's like, Oh, well, I going to, you know, get my way or I'm going to manipulate them. So they're not even going to know what's happening.

Yet that is not effective in reality. And it's a terrible way to negotiate. There's much better things that you can do to make sure that when you are, you know, interviewing for a job, how to get the amount of money that you want, you deserve to be paid your value or when you're like for me I don't have a traditional job but because I'm self-employed I work with a bunch of brands you have to get sponsors for this podcast for example I have to negotiate all day long like I negotiate probably once a day and so for me experience has definitely helped trial and error but he also has some really good tips that I'm going to try out myself. So anyways, who do I have on the show? I don't think I've even mentioned his name. Terrible, terrible podcast host. I've got Jean-Nicolas Reyt, that's spelled R-E-Y-T.

And he is the assistant professor of organizational behavior at McGill University. And he teaches people how to negotiate and how to negotiate in reality, in not a super cringe way. And so you're going to really pick up. I know you're going to pick up some nuggets for this episode. So I can't wait to share it with you. But before I do that, here's just a few words I want to share about this podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Aviv. So I don't know about you, but I have definitely gained some pandemic pounds. Luckily, this is a podcast, so you can't tell, but I can. I honestly use the stressfulness of the past year as an excuse to work out less and indulge in my favorite,

not-so-healthy foods. But it's a new year, and I am recommitting to a healthier lifestyle. And you and I both know the best way to lose weight and get fit is to eat better and move more. And one way to introduce more superfoods, plant-based proteins, and whole fruits and veggies into my diet that I'm trying out is Aviv's blender-free smoothies. First introduced to our TV screens on an episode of Dragon's Den in 2019, Aviv was founded in Sherbrooke, Quebec by Dominique Dubé and Claudia Poulet. As busy university students, they were looking for a way to eat better that wouldn't require time-consuming prep or cooking. So they crafted

their first generation of Aviv smoothies in their parents' garage, and they clearly caught on because their smoothies can now be found online and in over 2,000 grocery stores across Canada and the U.S. To try it out for yourself and to get a bit of a discount, visit jessicamorehouse.com slash aviv. That's E-V-I-V-E. And use code jessicamorehouse10 to get $10 off your first order. Once again, visit jessicamorehouse.com slash aviv and use code jessicamorehouse10 to get $10 off your first order. Welcome to the More Money Podcast, Jean-Nicolas. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. So you work for McGill University. You're a

professor and you were basically an expert when it comes to negotiating, something that I don't think I'm an expert at. So I'm very excited to have you on the show. I want to glean some of your expertise, and I'm sure so do my audience members. So before we kind of get into the thick of it, I'd love to know, how does one become a professor and really just focus on the art of negotiating? How did you get into this kind of career path? So it's really interesting. I started after I had my PhD in organizational behavior, which is a discipline in management. I got hired at McGill University and I started teaching organizational behavior classes. So it's basically sociology and psychology applied to employees and businesses. And after a couple of years of teaching that class, I was offered to develop a negotiation class.

And I said yes immediately because I thought it was an amazing opportunity. I was always very intrigued by negotiation. So negotiation is really stemming from organizational behavior in a lot of ways, because you look at people's self-confidence and assertiveness and their motivation to negotiate and all that stuff. So I started teaching negotiation in our MBA program, which was very challenging the first time. I think it took me a semester to realize really what students were expecting from me in terms of negotiation. I think I was expecting my students to be more on the aggressive side when it comes to negotiation and maybe like very excited or very excited about negotiating. And I think a lot of them were actually taking the class for the opposite reason, which is they were a bit nervous when it comes to negotiating. And so it really brought me to the realization that, you know,

most of the market out there is focused on people who are comfortable negotiators. And so I really had to develop an approach where before I could teach negotiation techniques to my students, I had to motivate them to, and feel confident enough to show up to the negotiation table. And that's important. I mean, a lot of studies show that, I mean, it's been shown consistently, and I also have studies on my own that show that most people don't negotiate their job offers.

Yeah. And you would think, right, it's like the one thing that has such a high return on investment, right? Negotiating your job offer. And even it doesn't even have to be about salary. It could be about different things. But people are just very, very worried about it. And they prefer to avoid salary negotiation, but they regret it. They don't feel good about it. So, so I think, you know, I started working on what I call negotiation self-defense, which is techniques, you know, for, for students and for young professionals to feel more comfortable negotiating and also to know how to deal with aggressive negotiators, because there are a lot out there. And, and I've really enjoyed it's become such a meaningful part of my life to teach negotiation. I really, really enjoy it a lot. Yeah. Like what you said, I only once have I negotiated a salary before starting a job. And it was only because they said that they were going to give

me this one salary, I get the contract, and it's lower than what we'd agreed upon. So it was more just being like, hey, you're trying to stiff me. It wasn't actually being proactive and be like, oh, well, you know, let's play the negotiation game. Let's try to see, you know, how much salary bump I can get from you. And I wonder, where does that stem from? Like, for me, I think the reason is negotiation was never talked about in my family, in school. I mean, there was never a class that I was aware of that talked about that, or maybe there was, and I just wasn't aware of it. My friends never talked about it. And so I didn't even know that when you were in an interview for a job, that is something that you're supposed to do. I always just assumed that if they told you, okay, this

is the salary, then you would accept it. And that was obviously my big ignorance. And obviously, I left a ton of money on the table. Where do you think that stems from that lots of people don't even think to negotiate when it comes to like, specifically their job? I think I think companies employ a bunch of negotiation suppression techniques, because they're trying to streamline the recruitment process. I mean, at McGill, you know, a lot of our students go into consulting or into accounting or finance. And because these companies deal with big numbers, I think they're trying to give an impression that it's almost inappropriate to negotiate or you shouldn't do it or it's a lot riskier than you think it's going to be.

So I think there is a big part of it. I don't think it's a good idea. I think companies shouldn't be doing that. I can tell you that my students who feel like they should have negotiated but didn't because they felt pressure not to, they're not happy about it. They don't want to stay in that company. So it's really, you can't win doing things like that.

And then I think there is also a very, very strong conflict avoidance in the younger generation. I think they're very much more collaborative, which I think is a great thing. But so that means, you know, that the knowledge that's out there for negotiators has been mostly developed by, you know, law enforcement people, hostage negotiators, lawyers, who maybe naturally are more on the aggressive side or more on the approach side and less on the avoidance side. And so I think, you know, if you pick up a book

or if you look on the internet about salary negotiation and you browse through the results, you'd be lucky to see if they even mention that you might be nervous. They go directly into telling you like about your posture and your preparation and all that stuff. And it's not very useful, right? If you're still wondering if like, it's even appropriate for you to negotiate. So I think it's, I think it's, it's, it's a lot of different things that go on,

but, but definitely the result is that people are very worried about negotiating. There are also a lot of just a lot of wrong assumptions on what negotiating is. I'm always very worried when people tell me they're great negotiators. Always very worried because you don't know what they mean. But a lot of time, it means they're like they're sharks or like or they just like to haggle or things like that, which really all of these aggressive negotiation techniques or all of this really focus on like, tense negotiations and like difficult negotiations. It's just because it's police officers writing these books, you know, like, that's, that's their work or lawyers, but my students, that's not what they're faced with, right? They're not in a hostage

situation. They're just trying to like, ask for what they want. And a lot of times, it's just more difficult than it sounds. Yeah, that's what I want to kind of start talking about is what does negotiation actually mean? Because I think a lot of us have preconceived notions. I certainly do. When I think of that term, I ultimately think about like a TV show or a movie where someone is Yeah, being very aggressive. And those situations are totally inappropriate to bring into like a job interview situation, right? But that is kind of what we where someone is, yeah, being very aggressive. And those situations are totally inappropriate to bring into like a job interview situation, right? But that is kind of what we think that's what you're supposed to do, right? You're supposed to hardball and it's all about getting what you

want and all that kind of stuff. But that doesn't sound realistic or applicable to regular lives and regular people like you and me. So what does negotiation mean or what should it mean? How should we kind of change this definition in our minds? Sure. So, I mean, I think the main starting point is just to accept that negotiation is trying to resolve conflicting goals. And, you know, as humans, we have conflicting goals. You want to be paid a certain way. They want to pay you a certain way. And there is a conflict, right? You disagree. I think, you know, in conflict resolution, the worst thing you can ever do, I mean, most of the times, some reasons it can happen, but the worst thing you can do is avoid negotiating, resolving the conflict. And so what you're trying to do is you are trying to convince the other person, right, that you achieving your goal is important.

And so that means, you know, being relatively assertive about what you want, but it doesn't mean being aggressive. It just means, you know, asking for what you want, making a case for it, listening to their argument, then you see if their argument makes more sense, you take time to think about it and you make a decision. It's really a very, very simple process. It's just that I think we tend to believe that negotiation is like this really, really risky thing. You know, I have so many students and I don't know where this comes from, so I don't know if you know, but my students, they keep telling me that since day one, I started

negotiating, started teaching negotiation. Sorry. My students have been talking to me about what if they take away their job offer? Yes. I used to think the same. Yeah. I hear that all the time. I used to be afraid of that.

I've never experienced it. I don't know anyone who has experienced it. And I don't know where we get this idea. But that's 100% something I used to think about in job interviews. It's like you really just you're just trying to get the job offer. And I don't know, to my background, being a millennial, and also, you know, being in my 20s and graduating university in 2009, I was just happy to get a job, you know, so I can move out of my parents' house. And I feel like even though that was so long ago, I have still some of that with me. So even for me, even though I don't work for an employer, work for myself, I'm negotiating all the time with, you know, brands, companies, on projects to, like you said, kind of get what

I want so I can achieve my goals. And I'm still not perfect at it. But there's still something always in me being like, oh, you should just say yes, you should just feel grateful for getting this opportunity and all that stuff. I don't know where that comes from. But I know a lot of people have the exact same feelings that I do. It's interesting, because so before I even started teaching negotiation, I was running this simulation in my organizational behavior class, which was a negotiation simulation. And I would have students, you know, half of them would play the role of an employer and half of them would play the role of a candidate. And they each had like a matrix of gains, you know, like you get that many points if you obtain this or that many points if you obtain that.

So that means, you know, they could you could see quantitatively. You could see if people were getting points or not, if they were leaving points on the table, all that stuff. So of course, you know, students go straight to like the aggressive, the aggressive method. And what you see is that, you know, nobody really wins, you know, they don't collaborate, there's just a bunch of opportunities are missed, you know, of expanding the pie for both. But what's really interesting, even beyond that, is that I consistently used to find, I still find it when I run it with other crowds, but I would always find that the employer would get more points than the candidate. And so I was like

asking them every time, like, why is that? And my students always told me, well, I'm the candidate. And I'm always like, what is that supposed to mean? And they tell me, i'm the candidate and i'm always like what is that supposed to mean and they tell me well i mean i'm lucky they're offering me a job they're the employer like they're the ones with power and i always tell them but not in this simulation in this simulation you had as many points like you did this to yourself there was absolutely no reason you wouldn't consider yourself an equal to the person who's trying to recruit you. You know, they want to recruit you. There is no reason you have to bow down. You know, you can just be asking about, you know, ways to expand the pie, asking for things that

could be an opportunity for you and an opportunity for them. And so it's really interesting because this is really what got me interested in negotiation because i was seeing how people were um were using all of these self-defeating strategies either being way too aggressive uh which is not working it doesn't work people don't want to negotiate with someone who makes them feel bad about themselves people don't want to do that and the thing is most negotiations are repeat negotiations. So people are not going to negotiate with you twice. That's the issue. You burned a bridge. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's the other thing, too. I think a lot of people think when you're in that situation was like, I've got everything to lose in that employer or, you know, that potential opportunity, they have nothing to lose. But of course they do because they, well, they, they're considering

if you're at that stage where you're talking about salary, they, they want you, they want to hire you. And, and same if you're, you know, a freelancer working with clients, it's the same thing. It's, I think people are just, again, terrified of the, if I, you know, negotiate or ask for a little bit more, they'll immediately say no. And not only will they say no to my request for more money, they'll rescind their offer, which I doubt happens often, especially if you're not coming at the negotiation, like you said, in an aggressive matter. If you're not doing it super aggressive, I don't think you'll offend them by asking. There's no harm in asking. But I think we do think there's harm in asking.

I mean, especially you have to remember you're facing like professional negotiators. That's all they do. That's all they do. They negotiate with people. So, so the only, you just have to realize that their strategy is just to prevent you from negotiating. They're not trying to do this to be mean or like, or anything. They're just trying to simplify their process. And so if they could avoid, you know, negotiating or giving, or anything, they're just trying to simplify their process. And so if they could avoid, you know, negotiating or giving more to you, then they would prefer to do that. And a lot of them also have this wrong assumption about what negotiation is. I did. So I was hearing so many times about offers being rescinded. Like what if the offer is rescinded, but nobody ever had a

story. It was always this fear, like this, this thing and this urban legend. I don't know. And I was like, so I was, so I ran a study, right. Where I hired 200 Canadian and American working adults. And I was asking them like, you know, did you negotiate your last offer? So 60% say no. Right. Then I tell them, do you regret your decision? And so of course people who negotiate don't regret it, but people who didn't, they regret it. So I just want to connect back to what you were saying earlier, which is I just want a job. And I agree with that. The problem is in our minds that goes away the second we get the job. And then you start thinking about the salary and all that kind of stuff. And so you really have to like pay attention to what

your your mind is telling you. And also people don't even think about negotiating their salary up until the minute it arrives. Because before that, all they're trying to do is secure the job, they're not even thinking about negotiating. Whereas the negotiation starts really early, like you're supposed to already have prepared everything before even the interview. So, um, so then I was asking them, um, did you ever negotiate a job wherever and, and had it rescinded, you know, because you negotiated zero, not a person said that, you know, when that kind of stuff happens, like, I know there was a story like that in my field where this happened, where a PhD student got an offer rescinded. That was a press article about it. Oh, wow. They wrote a press article. So it's not that frequent, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And also what you might think about is if that employer is going to rescind that offer, do you even want them to, maybe this is a good red flag, maybe you don't want to work with somebody who would do something like that. I think what happened in the very, very rare situations that I've seen an offer be rescinded, it's because the candidate tried really, really hard to please the person and then tries to negotiate very hard. And that changes kind of like the job description. So in the situation I was talking about, the PhD student was applying to a teaching position, was trying to turn it into a research position through a negotiation.

And so I think, you know, even though rescinding the offer was probably not a good thing to do, it, you know, it was just not a relationship that was supposed to work. You know, they just were looking for different things. But yeah, I agree with you. If you have an employer, right, who's behaving irrationally and like receiving an offer because you're asking for something, then yeah, you probably wouldn't want to work for that person. And I know, I know people say, but I need a job, but I can tell you, you're not going to keep that job very long. You're going to want to leave because if that's how they treat you when you still have leverage, right? How are they going to treat you, you're not going to keep that job very long. You're going to want to leave because if that's how they treat you when you still have leverage, right? How are they going to treat you when you have no leverage? You can't win at that game. So I want to kind of talk about some of the

practical things you can do because I think a lot of people just don't even know where to start in terms of being a non-aggressive negotiator. What does that actually mean? What does that actually look like? So that means that everything you do is motivated by rational arguments. And so that means that if you want to be a non-aggressive negotiator, that starts early. And so that starts at the beginning of your job search, meaning you need absolutely, your goal has to be to have several offers, at least two. That's the best leverage you will ever have. You know, it's having a good alternative and you don't need to be aggressive if you have a great alternative. I know people tell me, oh, but like, I don't know. I don't know if I can have another offer.

And I tell them, you need to continue searching until you have one. It is very important. And it's also how you can make the best decision for yourself. I understand that, you know, on the job market, a lot of times, at least for my students, once they have an offer, they kind of stop, you know, their search. But it's something that needs to be continued. And I understand it's difficult, but the reality is that's your biggest power in a negotiation is having a great alternative. But even if you don't have a great alternative, you do research.

And so many of my students or young professionals tell me that, you know, they don't know, like they're so worried about negotiating. And I tell them, like, what's your market worth? Like, what do you have in terms of data point, um, in terms of market worth? And they tell me like, I don't know. And so, and so, you know, so basically you're going to let, you know, the employer gives a number first, which is not really a good idea. If you could give a number first, it's probably better. Um, but, but then, so they're going to give a number that you're going to find too low. Like I a number that you're going to find too low. Like I can guarantee that you're going to find it too low because people like this like

illusion, I hear so many people say that. And I have to say, so I don't like to talk too much about gender, but I do see a lot of very, very smart young women do that and have this argument. And I think it's something that they need to stop doing. It's thinking that I'm just going to accept a low salary now, but if I do a good job, you know, if I'm nice and I do a good job, they're going to increase my salary. Oh yeah. I used to think that. And how many promotions and raises did I ever get? Zero. I got one raise and it was very minimal. You know, here's one story of me actually sort of negotiating and I guess sort of well. But the first ever job I got out of university, it was at a newspaper. I worked there for a year and a half at an incredibly low salary because,

again, I didn't even negotiate. I just, okay, sure, I'll take whatever you can get. It was so low that it really, I needed to have a second job to afford my bills. So that's clearly red flag. Number one. And number two, then, you know, I had the same idea. I thought, and I don't know where I learned this. You put your head down, you work, you, you know, spend some maybe extra hours at work. You put in your time and your, your good work will be appreciated and then rewarded by a salary increase or a promotion or something like that. Nothing happened. So after a year and a half, I got frustrated as most people would and then talk to the director and asked, you know, I look at all the things I've done, I've really, you know, improved this role so much, yada, yada,

yada. And I asked for a salary increase of $5,000, which at the time was life changing for me would not have even been a big deal for this company, right. And I did get a salary increase, but lower than what I asked for. So I still didn't really negotiate, right, like I got sort of what I wanted, but not and not quite. And so that that always kind of put a that for me, because I didn't quite get what I wanted. but not and not quite. And so that that always kind of put a that for me, because I didn't quite get what I wanted. I still wasn't happy. And so you know, I immediately started looking for other jobs. But yeah, to your point, when you say, you know, so they lost you. They did. They absolutely did. So they had someone who was willing to work, and who was willing to

bring her talent and her intelligence and her time you know to an organization and even to do it in the beginning for like close to free so that you know she would just get the learning and then when things are running she could get paid and then they lost her that's exactly what happened yeah yeah but yeah no i do feel like i you know i hate saying this as well but i i do there's a lot of statistics and i talk to a lot of women and this is you know a lot of women don't negotiate, or they just accept whatever. And I don't know, again, where this stems from, because I've seen so many studies that show comparing men to women in interviews, the difference, and men will always get more money, usually because they do negotiate,

and women don't. This is something that we, this is why I like having people like you on the show, so we can bring this, you know, to the forefront. So you can be aware, because I think for me, I wasn't even aware I was doing it. And that was a big deal. And for us to change our behaviors, and so it isn't such a big divide between the genders. And it's like, no, everyone should know how to do this. And negotiation avoidance is a silent affliction because I can already predict that you didn't tell a lot of people that you didn't get what you asked for. Like this is not like you're not advertising it, meaning like, of course, nobody wants, we don't want to show ourselves in the negative light. And so we kind of consider like a negotiation

failure or something we didn't get what we want. We consider it as a dirty little secret. We're not going to share with anyone. And the reason, so because we don't share it with anyone, there is like no books, you know, no knowledge. Like if you look, so I'm a management professor. And if you look at my colleagues who are writing books, you know, I see, for example, people who are, if you're in the field of creativity, you're competing with like hundreds of books every year.

Like it's unbelievable the number of like researchers and coaches and business professionals who write books about creativity. If you look at negotiation, I mean, we basically have maybe two a year or three a year, if we're lucky. And it's the same people, people right who are operating you know now are in the like 60s or 70s and who are operating you know they're not negotiating at the same levels they're not negotiating entry-level positions they're not negotiating um you know like

things that are not high stress or they're not like a lot of tension. And so I think, you know, young women in particular, in my class, I would say I have around 80% women. And it's because it is a real issue for a lot of young women, right? Who are equally smart, equally motivated. But I think there is like a difference in education where a lot of my students, a lot of my female students want to be nice, and they want to

be liked. And so and to them being nice and being liked goes above, you know, being almost respected. Well, I think part of that comes to our upbringing. I mean, a lot of us, you know, you know, women, like, you know, adult women now, when we were younger, we were taught to not be rude. You know, never, like, for instance, like me talking about money for a living is almost kind of crazy because back in the day, it was like, don't ever talk about money that's very inappropriate. So we were taught all these things that we unfortunately have to spend time now to unlearn about being like, you know, yeah, you're supposed to be quiet, you're supposed to be polite, you're supposed to be nice, all these things that are actually negatively affecting our careers and

our past, because, you know, men were not taught the same things, were they? And that could be why they are maybe more, you know, negotiating more, or just like more open to that, or were more got the information about how to do that earlier than, than some of us. I don't know. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And so I do see like, you know,

I have some, but you know, I have a few women who take my class are very, very aggressive, right? So they're fighting kind of like the other, the other side of the spectrum, but it's, it's rare.

It's so, it's a lot more rare than, than young, bright women who, you know, and it's true, right? If you're, if you're, if you're a yes person, which is basically a young person,

how can you not be a yes person? You know, like all of your success in your upbringing was conforming to what more powerful people were telling you to do. And companies are using that a lot because they're the ones in control, you know, with the recruitment process. So they're the ones who are in power. And it's very, very distressing for a young person, men or women, but for a young person to have to break the process and say, wait a second, can we negotiate? It's very difficult. And so that's why, you know, I've been like working on on this newsletter, you know, Master Negotiators, where I'm writing about every week, you know, about how to approach negotiation, how is reframe what negotiation means.

Because the way you mentally think of something is going to predict your decisions and how you behave. And so I think if we can show that negotiation can be non-aggressive, if you can teach people how to de-escalate, how to keep their cool, how to not be too emotional during a negotiation. You can be nervous, by the way, during a negotiation. So many people think that they have to look so charismatic. It's not true.

You can show that it makes you a bit nervous when you're negotiating your job offer. But we have this, we think negotiation is this sort of, this sort of like art, you know, that is like so difficult to master. It's not, it's just, look, if you know, if you can ask for what you want, and you can justify why you want it. And if you learn how to say no, I mean, what's going to stop you? There's nothing that's going to stop you. You asked for what you wanted, made a case for it. You listened to their argument. You're seeing if you can expand the pie and then they're giving you a counter offer. You don't have to say yes now. So you can just take that and think, or you can say no right now and you're good. Nothing to be scared of, but it's not the way

we see it. We see it as something like so many of my students, they tell me, I don't want to damage the relationship with my company. Yeah. But you're going to improve the relationship with your company if they see you as somebody who's not a doormat. You know, it's so important. I always tell my students, if you want to be treated like an equal, you have to behave like an equal, you have to behave like an equal. If you don't even speak up, the other person doesn't even know

that there is something going on. And so how can you blame them for not addressing it if you're not even bringing it up? They can't read your mind, you know, you have to bring it up. And so I think, you know, all of that is vastly ignored, you know, in a lot of negotiation training and focuses more on knowledge like how to use people's emotions against them, how to get a bigger slice, all that stuff. And my students don't really care about that. A lot of them, they just want to have a fair deal. And they certainly don't want the other part to feel like it was an unfair deal. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess also the important factor is starting that kind of mentality or those negotiations early. Because I think one problem that I personally had is realized I didn't negotiate and was upset, then wanted, you know,

I want a promotion or a raise or something. And then it feels like too much time has gone on. It'll be so awkward to bring it up. Like two years, I've been at this job for two years. How do I say, hey, so I know I never negotiated in the past. And I was just like a good little worker. Now I would like to negotiate. It's so much more difficult to bring it up after a few years. It would be so much easier if it was kind of like a consistent thing or just something that, oh, yeah, we did this once before or a couple of times before. So this is kind of a natural thing. Yeah. And also the problem is that you're negotiating, but you have no leverage. Yeah, that's a way gave it away when you accepted the contract. And so now, like, you know, basically, if you want to get out of the status quo, you have to either make an excellent case for yourself, but you have to demonstrate you're

willing to leave. Yeah. I was just going to ask him like, what is the way to get leverage once you've kind of lost it? Once you have the job? Cause I feel like most people assume, well, I guess I'm going to have to search for maybe another job, maybe get another offer and bring that on the table. But of course, I mean, I did that for my last job and I ended up quitting, not going to the new job. Just, I mean, it worked out in the end. I now work

for myself. But it is one of those things where it's like, I think a lot of people think because again, we see this in TV and movies, you bring another offer and then finally your company is going to be like, okay, we don't want to lose you. And they may actually be fine losing you. And that's something that you're going to have to be okay with. I've seen it happen like time and time again, which is also people. So if you don't have leverage, right, your only way is either to make like an appeal to the person, really showing them how the situation is unfair.

So you can show, for example, how you're underpaid compared to other people at the same role. You can bring up that information and you can still have some leverage, right? But I think the real leverage you're going to get to really become a priority to someone who's been underpaying you for years is to have a competitive counteroffer. And I know people don't like to hear that, but here's what I hear. Here's what I see time and time again.

You go in the job market, you get a counteroffer and you realize the other company is going to treat you a lot better. And you just go there. The truth is you don't owe people to just like be underpaid. You don't owe people anything. You owe yourself and your loved ones, you know, to, to support whoever you need to support and to be a productive society member. And everybody has to deal with their own stuff. And the employer is like trying to force you not to negotiate shouldn't be your problem. I know they're trying to do that. But you really only have one one option to do it, which is before you sign the contract. It's the only time you're going to have leverage. Yeah, I mean, I think that's such an important thing to remember, especially since I feel like

the whole kind of environment of like work cultures has shifted so much. Like you see so many companies being like, we're not a company, we're a family. No, you're not family. You're just a company. And, but I think that is a tactic they use to make you kind of feel guilty about leaving or even considering, you know, taking another offer. But like you said, the most important thing you need to do, and it's not a selfish thing, it's actually a self-care thing, is to, you know, maybe if this work environment isn't working out, if they're underpaying you and undervaluing you, then you have to go somewhere else. I'll say right now, I mean, I've worked at lots of different jobs over the past several years. I've never regretted leaving a company to work for another company.

Even if like the new company wasn't amazing, it was still good to have that change. Because if you're already like kind of checked out at work, it's not going to get better if you just stay there. Yeah. And so sometimes I hear, you know, I have like older, you know, MBA students who tell me like, yeah, but like I'm married, I really need this job.

And I always tell them like, then you should start negotiating. Then it's even more reasons to negotiate because you're not negotiating just for yourself. You're negotiating for your whole family. And it's been shown by research, by the way, that when people are uncomfortable negotiating, it's a lot of times because they feel greedy or they feel like, you know, they shouldn't negotiate. But it's been shown in terms of gender that women who are primed or put in condition to think they're negotiating for somebody else are a lot more assertive.

So that can help. So instead of thinking about I'm doing this for me, it could be like I'm doing this for my family or my future or some like having sort of a bit of an external kind of thing. Actually, that's very true. I you know, I feel like a lot of us, like myself included, if it's if it is something about like protecting my family or something that the tone definitely changes, you know, so that's, that's fascinating. I always use it whenever I have like a young mother or, or, you know, a young married student or something like that

who's very nervous about negotiating, I always tell them right before, like, don't forget, you're not doing this for you, right? You're doing this for your kid. And I know that mothers, like it resonates with them. They will switch their mindset. You wanna be nice and you wanna be pleased, but not if it hurts your kid, that's for sure. And so, so that works, but I think it's the kind of things, you

know, there's also research showing that if women are, see a negotiation as asking and not as negotiating, they tend to be more likely to negotiate. But I think, you know, these things over the years, I think they're nice little tricks, but I think the best way is to really tackle misunderstandings about negotiation so that you can reframe what it is and you can really take the benefits throughout your life, not just having to use mind tricks to make it work. And I think it's important for people and for young women in particular to realize, you know, everything you're bringing to the table. They're not, they're not like the person who's hiring you is not like helping you. Right. They're not. And I think sometimes we go into it thinking they are because, again, they're very good at their jobs.

Like you said, they negotiate all the time. And when I've been in those situations, they're the nicest people. Of course. And they always tell you, like, there's so many candidates and look how lucky you are. And I'm sorry, we have a budget. We can't deviate from the budget. And like, they have all of these techniques, right, that they can use. And I think, you know, it's so easy if you're already very nervous about it. It's so, so easy to just give up. Right. They because they use these like postures like how are you going to answer to someone who tells you like, you know, oh, we have a fixed budget. Right. Which is never true, by the way.

I don't see why it would be the case. But it's never true. They have a budget, but it's always flexible. 100%. Yeah. I mean, like when what, you know, I'm in a university. And so we're very, very fixed in terms like when what you know i'm in a university and so we're very very fixed in terms of like you know we're very inert it takes us a long time to do things and we negotiate everything so i really don't see any but what i mean is of course the person

who's a recruiter they have developed techniques you know kind of subconsciously that they know makes their work easier so they can make you feel like you're just one of many and that your talent is not that exceptional, then they know that you're not going to negotiate. The problem is to them as a recruiter, problem solved, right? But then the manager has to deal with someone who feels like they got screwed over. Yeah, yeah.

And as someone who's, I mean, I'll say every job that I did negotiate, I always regretted it. Like you kind of said those stats earlier. I'm like, yeah, that was a hundred percent me. But even any project when I became self-employed that I didn't negotiate really enough, I always had the worst time working on whatever project is. Whenever I get paid something that I do believe is my true value and I do negotiate and I'm happy, I have a great time. I do better work. So that's another kind of thing to think about it. You'll be happier and you'll produce better work. Everyone will have a better time

if you do feel valued and get paid your worth, really. Yeah. And your worth, your self-worth shouldn't be tied up to some recruiter, what they're telling you, right? Yeah, they don't know you. No, they don't know you. No, they don't know you. And also they're biased. They have a voice in this race. Like they're not objective. They're people who are trying to get you to accept,

like, you know, they have budgets and they have numbers and that's what they're trying to do. That's basically what's going on. And so they're using anything they can. And I'm not vilifying them at all. I completely understand the system. I'm just saying your self-worth should be high enough that you can stand for yourself and you can stand your ground. And you shouldn't be deviated from that just by someone making it seem like you shouldn't

be having such a self-worth. And it's something that I see. So this is why, even though I like the techniques, you know, by thinking about, you know, a spouse or thinking about asking, I do find because I'm lucky enough to work with students for 14 weeks, I do find that I prefer to tackle the underlying issue, meaning why is it that you will only stand your ground if it's for somebody else? Or why is it that you can't accept to negotiate? And I prefer to really question this because if you really look at it straight in the eyes, then you realize that you don't really have any basis

to work this way, or it's not really a functional behavior, it's a dysfunctional behavior. So I don't really want a quick fix, right? That's not going to address the underlying issue. I really prefer for people to understand how negotiation can be non-aggressive, how they do deserve to be treated fairly by employers. And if you believe that, then there is no issue. You will be able to ask because you will be able to say, hey, so I was looking at the offer and this is lower, you know,

that I've been paid in my previous job, right? I have students who accept being paid less. I mean, it's insane. And then they come to me and they tell me, what can I do? And I tell them, you can't do anything. Yeah, you accepted the job. Yeah. And they're like, oh, but I didn't sign the contract. And I tell them like, and still what?

What are you going to do? What are you going to do? You're going to contact them again, look untrustworthy, you know, look unstable. You change your mind, right? I tell them, look,rustworthy, you know, look unstable, you change your mind, right? I tell them, look, if you don't, you don't have any other option, like this is over, you said yes. And the, unfortunately, the only thing they're going to be able to do is to like two years, you know, down the line, try to negotiate with their employer who already thinks they're not standing their grounds. So they're already have no reason to like increase your salary or anything

because they see you as somebody who's not going to ask for it. So why would they allocate resources to you? They're going to allocate resources to people who are, you know, showing up and showing that there is an issue. That's the people, because you want to solve your issues.

You don't want to start solving non-issues. And so this is, you know, what's going on. I think this is what I'm really not sure why there is such a misunderstanding about negotiation. I'm not sure why it's not something that's taught to everyone. Right. This should be like a mandatory course in like high school or university or something. Absolutely. I look biased, right? Because that's what I teach. And so I, but I do believe I strongly, strongly believe, you know, it's funny because when I was teaching organizational behavior, I never had a single student tell me I changed their lives. It never happened. You know, like they would just tell me

I made it less boring or entertaining or whatever. Like, you know, it was just like the best I could hope for is to say, Oh, he's, he's quite funny. Right. Or something like that. But negotiation, I mean, I have students who negotiated an increase in $15,000 a year. This is changing the arc for a young graduate. Like, you know, this is changing the arc. You know, then they tell me like, I'm so happy. And I'm like, but of course, of course you're happy. You know, like you were, you were nervous about it. You're prepared. You asked for what you wanted. You made a case. They said yes. And now you got it. I mean, it's amazing. You know, like why wouldn't you be proud? So of course, then, you know, like,

then, you know, this is when I started seeing reviews like, oh, he changed my life, but they changed their lives themselves. You know, they really, all is when I start seeing reviews like, oh, he changed my life. But they changed their lives themselves. You know, they really, all of that, all I'm doing is I'm just giving techniques so that you feel that you can go for it. And I think it's so meaningful. It's so meaningful. A lot of times, you know, I think in management, we wonder, like, how we're helping the field. And I do think that helping people to become better negotiators should be a priority. It's so important. It is so important. Absolutely. So I guess not everyone

can sign up for your course. I feel like everyone, I want to sign up for your course, but I suppose you have to be in an MBA program or at a student at MacDill? Or an undergrad. Or an undergrad. So I also have, so I created this newsletter that I call Master Negotiators. It's on my personal website. And I publish every week. I publish my thinking of negotiation and practical tools

on non-aggressive negotiation methods. And so the goal is really, I'm also thinking about creating a place where people can practice their negotiation skills with simulations. I have a lot of simulations that I can use. And I think, you know, if there is an interest, it's something that I would love to do. But yeah, I think it's, I'm trying to bring a different voice out there about negotiation. And I'm trying to focus on people who are nervous about negotiating because I think the other ones, right, those who seek negotiation and are really excited about it,

they already have books to read. They already have a book to read and they're good. But a lot of people want to make sure they don't get screwed over by negotiators like that. And so this is what I'm trying to do, which is, you know, really show all of these methods to help people be more confident in their negotiation. Amazing. Well, I'm so glad I had you on the show. I know so many people are going to get, I mean, even for me, I'm going to sign up to your newsletter because even for me as someone that I sometimes forget how often I negotiate, every single contract I sign for, I know a project is a negotiation and I never want to get complacent. So I'm going to sign up to your newsletter and see if I can learn a thing or two, right? Because, yeah. It's also a way I think, I think negotiation is definitely something that needs to be

on your mind throughout your life because everything, I know it sounds so, so, so common sense, but it's true. Everything is a negotiation. And, and I know, I know, for example, people at work, so many people don't know how to say no. They just don't know how to say no. And people around them know that, so they just keep piling up work on them. If you don't know how to say no, it's something you need to solve. You need to figure it out. You need to read about non-aggressive negotiation so that you can say no. It's so important. And it's crippling. It's crippling not to be able to know it. But I think it's something throughout your life. And so I think it's something to be, to be thinking about, you know, it has to be always something you consider so that every opportunity you get, right, which doesn't have to be about money. It can be about anything. You can just try to see if there is ways to expand the pie for both and try to

be beneficial for both. And everybody loves that, right? It's a constructive thing to do. And so there's no reason not to do it. Absolutely. So before I let you go, you mentioned your newsletter. How can people find you? What's your website? And are you on social media? Can people follow you? Sure. So my newsletter is on my website. You can go on reyt.net. And so that's my personal website. And then you click on newsletter, and this is where you can sign up. And you can definitely add me on LinkedIn. I'm mostly active on LinkedIn, using just my full name. You can follow me or connect with me. And so this is where I post also, every couple of days, I post negotiation tips and strategies and my thinking on negotiation. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show,

taking the time to share all of your wisdom. It was a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. And that was episode 274 with Jean-Nicolas Raitt. Again, he is an assistant professor of organizational behavior at McGill University. You can find more information about him at his website, rate.net. So this R E Y T.net. You can also find him on Twitter and Instagram. His handle is J N R E Y T. Again, I'm going to include all of this great helpful information, including his newsletter that he mentioned in the show about master negotiating in the podcast episode show notes. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 274 to find those show notes. You can find show notes for any episode I've done in the past if you just go to either jessicamorehouse.com slash the number of that

episode or just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast. All the episode show notes for every episode ever is right on my website. Don't go away, have some very important things to share with you. So please stick around. Here's just a few words I want to share about this podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the more money podcast is supported by Aviv. Are you looking for a way to eat better without sacrificing a bunch of time to meal prep and cleaning your blender, like me because I absolutely hate cleaning my blender, then you may want to try out Aviv's smoothies. These smoothies are superfood packed, certified organic, vegan, and all tested and

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jessicamorehouse10 to get $10 off your first order. Okay, so as I mentioned at the end of last week's episode and just some special info, secret info that I'm sharing exclusively with you because you listen to me on the show, I have another exam coming up. So as you may remember, if you're a longtime listener, back in September and October, I did two exams to finish and complete the Canadian Securities course, a meaty course about investing, passed luckily. Honestly, I still have nightmares just thinking about that exam. It was tough. And also doing an in-person exam during COVID, not fun. That's probably why I was so anxious. I'm like, hmm, I could fail and

I could die. You know, not something that I want to repeat of, which is why I'm doing, luckily now, the CSI has proctored exams that you can do in the comfort of your own home. So that's what I'm doing. But anyways, it's coming up next week. So I just want to tell you, I'm doing another exam for this course called Financial Planning 1. It is one of several courses I will be taking to eventually become a certified financial planner. I'm sure it's going to honestly take me like a year or two, it's going to take me more than a year what I'm talking about. I feel like I probably won't finish this for a little while, like the entire kind of path to become a CFP for a little while. So I'm going to tell you about my experience

as I am on the journey along the way. Um, anyway, so anyways, it's next week. So if you can, um, or is it, wait, when is it? Let me check my calendar. When is it Jessica? When is this exam? It's this Friday. So is this Friday. So if you can send me your good vibes, like virtually to spiritually in the air, over the cloud, whatever you want to do, I'd really appreciate it. It worked for me last time because I somehow passed the CSC exam. And so if you can send me your good vibes, that'd be cool. I won't be able to share the results for a few weeks because I'm sending this in batches to my podcast editor. Yes, I've got one. I finally got one. It took me almost six years to hand over the reins. Because I don't know. I don't know why I didn't let someone else do this for the longest

time. Because I mean, this is so much better than me doing myself. I don't know why I was just editing forever, like over 270 ish episodes by myself. What am I doing? What am I doing with my life? So anyways, because I'm doing that, I won't be able to share for a few more episodes, like two more episodes after this, but then I'll share the news and hopefully some more exciting things to share with you because I've just been very focused on studying and also putting new exciting cool lessons and modules and video tutorials and resources and worksheets in my wealth building blueprint for Canadians course. So if you want to learn more about how to invest passively as a Canadian, how to either,

you know, how to build your own investment plan, how to understand what the hell that means to understand all the jargon to better understand how the stock market works, how to use a robo-advisor or to be a self-directed investor, build your own ETF portfolio and rebalance it. If you want to learn all that, because I know I've talked about it for years on this podcast, well, guess what? I finally have a course for you and you can find more information in the show notes. Again, JessicaMoorhouse.com slash 274. But you can also just go to either my main website, JessicaMoorhouse.com or go to JessicaMoorhouse.com slash shop. There will be information there. Also, just to remind you, if you're looking for a budget spreadsheet, no matter your situation, if you're self-employed, employee with a side

hassle or an employee, I've got a variety of budget spreadsheets that you can download on my website. JessicaMoorhouse.com slash shopets that you can download on my website. JessicaMorris.com slash shop is where you can find all of that. So yeah, so that's it. I should probably get back to studying because the clock is ticking. The clock is ticking. So thank you so much for listening. I will be back next week for a fresh new episode of the More Money Podcast.

Have a good rest of your week. I will see you then. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.