More Money Podcast - 278 How to Think Like a Breadwinner - Jennifer Barrett, Author of Think Like a Breadwinner and Chief Education Officer at Acorns

Episode Date: April 28, 2021

This week on the podcast we’re asking the question, what does it mean to think like a breadwinner? How would your approach to spending, saving, and investing in your future change if you thought like the primary earner in your life? Luckily, the answers to those questions are exactly what my guest, Jennifer Barrett, author of the upcoming book Think Like a Breadwinner will be tackling. Jennifer Barrett is the Chief Education Officer at Acorns, a saving and investing app with more than 9 million users. She’s also a contributor to Forbes, as well as an advisor to three female-led startups and a featured money expert in the media. She lives in Brooklyn with her family, of which she is also the breadwinner. Following Jennifer’s own wake-up call to change her money mindset, she wants all women to know that they don’t have to think small when it comes to wealth-building. We discuss everything from what women should be investing in (spoiler alert, it’s not handbags and clothes) and how negotiating for a better future now will give you the biggest payday in the future. Jennifer’s book and our chat definitely reinforced what a positive ripple effect wealth-building can have on your life. For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/278 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is episode 278 of the show and I am your host, Jessica Morehouse. Thanks so much for joining me for another episode. I can't wait to share this one with you because it also comes with another book to give away. So if you've been listening to my show all season, or honestly, if you've been listening to my show for a while, you know, I love to give away books when I have an author on the show, love to give away those books. So I'm going to be giving away this book because it's honestly a fabulous book. I really, really loved it. So for this episode, I'm interviewing Jennifer Barrett. She is the chief education officer at Acorns and also the author of Think Like a

Breadwinner, which I, yeah, it's like I read the book. I'm like, wow, I honestly for so long, there's so many unconscious things. And we talked about this in the episode. I never really thought of myself as a breadwinner. Sometimes I still actually don't, even though I am technically, I guess my family's breadwinner, or I do earn more than my husband. And we just have a lot of things I think, as a society to work through in terms of just some of these stereotypes or kind of ideas that we were told or ingrained in us that we need to kind of maybe, you know, unlearn or work through because, you know, it is 2021. And we need to kind of think of things in a little bit more of a modern way. And so I can't wait to share this episode with you because it's a great one. And I honestly,

again, really like my book. So a little bit more about Jennifer, like I mentioned, she is the chief education officer at Acorns, which is a saving and investing app with more than 9 million users. And her book Think Like a Breadwinner literally just came out. So you can grab your copy now. She's also a contributor to Forbes. She's also written about money for publications like the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, and Newsweek. Not only that, she is also co-authored two other personal finance books and is often featured as a money expert in the media. And she also advises three female-led startups and provides leadership coaching to female founders. And she is a proud breadwinner herself. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband

and two sons. And that is part of the reason that she was inspired to write this very, very important book that we're going to talk about in this episode. Now, before I get to that interview with Jennifer, I just want to share a little bit. I'm going to use this kind of forum now to instead of having an external podcast sponsor, I'm going to talk about something about me. So in case you don't know, I recently launched in February, my wealth building blueprint for Canadians investing course. So I have obviously had this podcast for a long time going on six years. And I feel like it was important to have basically a really important educational resource for for you know, everyone who listens to the show and kind of learn, you know, about investing with the show, what's that kind of next step, which is really

like, how do I actually take action? I want, you know, I get so many messages and DMs and emails from people being like, hey, you know, I want to get started with passive investing and ETFs and all that stuff. I have just no idea where to actually start. Because there's, I mean, there's a lot to know a lot of things to that go into making a smart, you know, investment decision and making your own investment plan. So that is pretty much why I developed this wealth building blueprint for Canadians course, I walked you through all the key things that you need to know before you start investing, such as investment products, investment accounts in Canada. Also, this is again, specific for Canadians and capital markets,

investment planning, diversification, asset allocation, personal risk tolerance, and just some key terminology and key kind of, you know, other kind of things that you may not have any idea about like Norbert Scambit and stuff like that. I teach you in this course, and then I also show you how to take action. So when you're ready to, okay, I have some money, I'm ready to start investing, I show you how to build your own investment plan, how to either use a robo advisor or go self directed using a discount brokerage or doing a combination of the two because that's what you can do. So it's really for people that are ready to do something different with their investments or to get started because honestly, a lot of the students are either very new to investing or they've been investing for a while,

but have no idea what they're actually investing in. And I've looked at lots of their portfolios and yeah, usually it's actively managed mutual funds at the bank or segregated funds from an insurance company. And so if you want to learn how to go about this, you can find more information in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 278. Or you can just go to my shop page, jessicamorehouse.com slash shop where you can also find, you know, my budget spreadsheets, there's a few free ones in there. So if you want to get started budgeting, tracking your spending, tracking your net worth, getting your finances organized, I've got some budget spreadsheets. I also have a couple other courses and worksheets from other

personal finance influencers. Actually, they're all from the US. So if you're looking for an American investing course, I actually have one linked there that is really great. But yeah, just check out what I've got, jessicamorehouse.com slash shop. Okay, without further ado, let's get to that interview with Jennifer. Welcome to the More Money Podcast. Jennifer, I'm so excited to have you on the show to talk about your book, Think Like a Breadwinner. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yes. So loved your book. It definitely made me reflect with some of the things that are like in my own mindset and some of the things that I've kind of brought into adulthood. It really made me think like, oh, wow, I didn't really realize I was thinking of some of these

things unconsciously. So we're gonna have so much to talk about. But before we get going, tell me a little bit about yourself. I know you do kind of talk about your journey in the book, but tell me what kind of inspired you to write this book about this specific topic? Yeah, because, you know, as women, most of us are still culturally conditioned not to think of ourselves as breadwinners. And that can really keep us from making the kinds of choices with our money that truly serve and support us. And, you know, I have my own wake up call. But as I did research, I realized that I was hardly alone in this and that even though more than 40% of U.S. households, women are now the sole or primary breadwinner, and I should say in households with children under 18.

So we're talking about more than 40% of working moms are either the sole or primary breadwinner for their family, And yet we are not being raised to think of ourselves like breadwinners, nor are we really getting the message that it's important for us to not just negotiate our earnings, but also build a kind of wealth that will support us and maybe support a family one day too. And I think that goes a long way toward explaining some of the things you and I were talking about before we started recording, you know, this kind of gaping gender wealth gap. You know, the gender wage gap in the States is almost 20%, right? But the gender wealth gap is like 68%. There's a huge difference there. And if we're ever going to close those gaps,

we need to start seeing ourselves as being totally capable of providing for ourselves and maybe for others too. And that's a pretty deeply held belief, I think, that deep down, a lot of us don't feel like we need to step into that role, or even that we're capable sometimes of being in that role. And that's because we just haven't been culturally conditioned to think of ourselves that way. And you mentioned that you had a personal wake up call. What was that? What kind of kind of triggered you to start thinking a bit differently? Yes, I learned that there's a there's really a material difference between being able to

cover the bills and budget your money, which, you know, are important to but, but there's a difference between that and being able to build wealth to support the life you want. And I think I learned that the hard way in my early 30s. You know, I thought I was doing everything right. I had a great job. I was an editor at a national magazine. I had a steady paycheck. I had a small 401k. I was covering half the rent and the bills with my husband. And I thought I was doing okay, but I had this moment just after we had had our son, he was about 18 months old. And one night I was pacing around our little one bedroom apartment with him trying to get him back to sleep. And I looked around and it hit me like a ton of bricks that we were in a situation that was just unsustainable.

And what was most upsetting to me was that I wasn't in a position to really help us get out of it. We were outgrowing our apartment and I realized I hadn't really saved or invested enough to help us afford to buy a place or even really to get a much bigger place to, you know, to rent a much bigger place. And we wanted to have a second kid too. And so I realized that even though I thought I was doing enough, it really wasn't enough for the kind of life that I wanted. And suddenly all these things that were most important to me were at stake. So I really had to look at the underlying beliefs that had driven the choices I'd made with my money and kind of examine where they came from. And I realized that on a

very subconscious level, I had been depending on my husband to really take the lead and like saving and investing enough to help us afford these things we wanted to buy a place to have a second kid, just as my dad had done when I was growing up. And it's not that my husband wasn't working toward that, but I really wasn't doing my share. You know, I wasn't taking ownership in ensuring that we could have this future that we both wanted. And so I started to think about the way I'd been raised. And I asked myself, would the choices I make with my money be different if I'd been raised to think like a breadwinner? You know, if I'd been raised to believe that I, you know, to truly believe I was

fully responsible for myself financially for life, and maybe for others too, how would that change the choices I make with my money and my career? And the answer to that really set me off on an entirely new trajectory financially and, you know, completely transformed my relationship with money in a really powerful, positive way. And that's what this, this book sort of traces that journey. And then all the research I did after that and interviews I did with over a hundred women in a kind of range of financial situations. Yeah. Like you said, it's, and reading your book, I'm like, yeah, it is a very unconscious assumption or idea of our futures. And like, so unconscious that I just never I never really thought about it. But I mean, growing up, of course, like many people that my dad made more than my mom. And part of that was because, you know, she had to take she didn't work for a number

of years raising, you know, me and my two sisters. And so that was normalized to me. So I always kind of thought that's probably what my life will look like, like, you know, I'm gonna do things that my parents were not able to do go to university, get a degree, pursue, you know, maybe higher paying career, but I always somehow assumed my husband, or whoever I end up with, would earn more. And I think part of that was based off just the role models I had my parents. But also when you look around, typically it's an even watch TV, you look in the media, it is the men who are the breadwinners, the women that are kind of in that secondary role. And so I always kind of, for whatever reason, assumed I'd be in that, you know, I'm like, I'll probably do okay. And I have, you know, I'm very ambitious,

but I always assumed my husband would earn more. And it's interesting now I'm the breadwinner. I mean, we both work, of course, but I out earn my husband. And that was never something that I expected or even thought was possible. And that almost kind of, I don't know, it kind of not upset me, but I'm just like, why would I think that I couldn't do that? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy, because a lot and now, luckily, I'm seeing a lot more conversations, especially women in the personal finance field, of them experiencing the same thing, because a lot of us are starting our own businesses, and realizing it's possible. And but why did we think it wasn't possible? Yes. And that is at the heart of this book.

And the reason a lot of us don't think it's possible or don't see ourselves in that way, don't identify ourselves as a breadwinner, is because we really aren't socialized to think of ourselves that way. In fact, we're sort of discouraged from building our own wealth. And I delve into a lot of this research. But, for example, research shows that parents actually speak differently to their daughters about money than they do to their sons. So they're more likely to teach their girls how to budget and spend smartly. And they're more likely to teach their sons how to build credits and how to invest, you know, in stocks and bonds and real estate to build wealth. And those are critical skills for everyone, but women are less likely to get that training or even to get

the message of how important it is to invest to grow their wealth. So it's not surprising. And as you mentioned, the media reinforces that. So, and I delve into a lot of the details here, but generally speaking, you're right that in a lot of the media portrayals of families, men are typically the breadwinners. Men are typically in the higher paying occupations. It's starting to shift, but very slowly. And then, you know, there was one really interesting study that I remember looking at, that looked at the coverage of personal finance topics in women's magazines. And it was less than 1% of all editorial pages covered money at all. And when it did, it was about saving for small things like saving for a girl's getaway or, you know, post pandemic or an expensive handbag or something.

It wasn't about saving in order to buy a house to put those shoes in or saving because you want to be able to travel all over the world, not just, you know, one weekend getaway. So I think so much of the messaging we get is about sort of thinking small and budgeting and clipping coupons. And there's nothing wrong with clipping coupons, but it's kind of a small way to see our role and our relationship with money. And what I'm talking about in the book is really expanding our view of money, expanding our view of what's possible, expanding our view of our own capabilities. And that is so, it's so powerful. I'm sure you felt it too, because once you start earning more, you're like, oh my God, I can totally, why did I think, why did I never think of myself in this

role? But it really is because we are really culturally conditioned not to think of ourselves that way. And it is very, very deep in our subconscious. So I think the first step is just to be aware of that all these messages we get throughout our lives that are all about like, telling us that we don't need to consider our income as being as important, telling us that it's not that important, we build wealth, all those messages that really kind of sabotage the choices that we end up making ourselves with our money. Being aware of them is just the first step. And then the second step is to kind of educate ourselves because there's also that financial literacy gap really for most people, but especially for women and especially around wealth building, investing,

investing in the market, investing in real estate, all of that. You mentioned in your book, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so true, that often you'll see in the media, you know, whether it's like a financial publication or something else, it'll talk about, you know, kind of focused on their male audience and how to invest in, you know, double your income or whatever. But for women, it'll be like, how do, you know, invest in this signature piece, like their wardrobe. And then you're like, okay, you know that this is probably going to go down in value because it's an item of clothing or like, unless it's like a Birkin bag that is kind of an anomaly, it's probably going to go down in value. So why are we talking about investing? Like we, I feel like whenever you see something about investing and specific to women, it's always

just investing in yourself, whether that usually means like education or investing in something for your house or your wardrobe. But I haven't really seen too much besides some maybe specific personal finance content creators on their own channels. But in the general media, it's still not. Or, and this is the thing that kind of really irritates me, is the whole kind of aspect of money but for women, as if it is different than, you know, it's like, oh, you know, I talk about investing, but for women, I'm like, how is that different than investing for men? Investing is investing.

Right. It is gender neutral. Why do we need to gender things like that? I feel like, and that's the big thing that I've been seeing with a lot of people is, especially some other, you know, bloggers that I've been, you know, in touch with for years is, why do people assume that because I'm a woman, I don't only talk about money for women, I'm a woman, but I talk about money, why do we have to, you know, gender it, because then it makes it seem like, if a man is talking about investing, they're talking for men. But no, you can get that content, too. It's for everybody. It is, it is. But you're right, it has been very gendered. And even the way like, you know,

certainly this is changing too, but the way financial advisors would speak to men and to women, they would assume that the man was making the investment decision. So they would really be focused on, you know, talking about investing strategy with the men and not women. And so people in my, our parents' generation, you know, were, you know, there are cases where the husband passes away and the wife has no idea where the money is, you know what I mean? It comes just because they were never a part of those decisions. And I do think that that's changing, but I agree with you. I think, you know, even when we looked at the study with women's magazines, you know, women's magazines were talking about money in a very

different way than men's magazines were. They were all about like how to be a millionaire by the time you retire or, you know, the best stocks to invest in this year. And women's magazines were talking about how to save money on your next vacation or, you know, how to invest in a, you know, in a super expensive blazer that you can wear for years. You're like, maybe you don't need the thousand dollar blazer. No, I mean, let's put that thousand dollars in the stock market instead. You can enjoy much better returns. Yeah. Well, I've even seen that a lot. So I started blogging almost 10 years ago. And what's been great is seeing the shift in how just these kind of individual content creators have kind of changed what they're talking about.

When I started, women, and that's how I kind of started. I started reading other people's blogs because I didn't know anything about money. I'm like, oh, this is cool. People are talking about this on the internet. Women really just talked about debt, like how to get out of debt and budgeting and saving. No one talked about investing. The only people that talked about investing were men. And so because again, it was kind of siloed. I always like it. I feel now looking back,

I was late to the party about really learning what I needed to learn about investing because I didn't think that that was for me because it seemed like, oh, well, I'm not in that category. I'm not invited to that, you know, club. But luckily it it is broadening. But man, do we have a long way to go. We do. No, we do. And I remember I talked about this in the book that I remember clearly this party I was at in the in my 20s, with some work colleagues, and all the men were like off in a corner comparing their like investing strategies. And like I invested in this, I made this much, and they were, you know, trading tips. and literally every woman in the room, we were just silent. And then we all turned to each other and started talking about our weekend plans. And it was like,

it was that moment stayed with me. And I just thought, oh my God, if women, you know, like, I feel like women now we're really good about talking to each other about our career and building our careers. But if women could talk that way about building our wealth, can you imagine, you know, if we had the same sort of conversations about building our wealth and wealth building strategies that we're using, and I'm investing in this, and what are you investing in and talking really openly about that, it would be, it would be so beneficial. And I think it's, it's starting to happen. And, you know, you're starting to see these investment clubs spring up all over, you know, all over the world, really.

But I think we've got a ways to go. As you said, there's still this idea that it's about like penny pinching and couponing and budgeting and not to say that those things aren't valuable skills, too. But that is very constrictive. And whereas, you know, investing is about growing your money, you know, it's so much more expansive. And that also just expands the possibilities for you in the world and the way you think of yourself and your place in the world. And that's really the biggest distinction for me. And, you know, as you point out, if you look at the numbers, I mean,

women do have more credit card debt than men. Women do have more student debt than men. And so paying off debt is going to be a bigger deal for women than it is for men, just because we have more of it. But it doesn't stop there, right? You pay down your debt, and then you build your money. It's not like it's not the end game. Exactly. It's like it doesn't have to be one or the other. It should be a whole kind of universe of things that you should be integrating. I think the one thing that I see often talked about, especially on social media, and we see the headlines too, again, the idea that it's kind of a negative thing for a woman to earn more than their husband or to out earn them or to be the sole breadwinner in the family and for their husband to maybe stay at home and take care of the kids, even though it's, you know, it's 2021,

you'd think we'd be further ahead, it's still kind of thought of as a negative for a woman to earn more. Why do you think that is? Like, is it just like, you know, I know, I say like the media, I'm like, is it because whoever is the leader of that media outlet is a man and they have a certain agenda? Like, what is going on? I'm not even sure that it's that conscious, to be honest. But I, yeah, and I talk about this, too. I mean, after I became the breadwinner almost a dozen years ago, and I remember and I was pregnant with our second son when I became the breadwinner. And then we had him.

And I can remember the reaction that people had when they found out I was the main earner. And it was like this, oh, gosh, really? Oh, I'm sorry. And with two young kids, how are you doing it? And it was as if I became the breadwinner by chance, as if, oh, your husband must have lost his job and now you find yourself in this terrible position of having to carry this responsibility, when the fact was that was a conscious choice of mine. I consciously took this management job that paid more.

I consciously stepped into that role. And I was fine with it. But it was really frustrating once I stepped into it to, first of all, get that reaction, and then look around and feel like, am I the only one in this role, you know, and then, and then, as you said, the headlines were like, Oh, my God, I can see why people were wary of moving into that role. Because the headlines were like, you know, your your chance of divorce increases, your husband will cheat on you, you know, up in your career, you'll have less female friends. Right? Yeah. You're just like, you're going to be a terrible person. Yeah. Your husband's going to hate you.

And you're selfish. If you want to make more money, all of these things that were selfish, I hear that a lot. And I'm like, that's insane. Cause you would never say that to a man. It is. That's a very good point. That's always my filter. And I was like, would you say that to a man. It is. It is. That's a very good point. That's always my filter now is like, would you say this to a man? And then obviously there's something going on here. But I started digging into some of those headlines for the book. And what I found was, a lot of times, even if you read the article, the headline was a little more sensational than the article was. And what it really came down to is not women earning more. What researchers found was that if men did their share of the housework, that absolutely negated the effect of the increased divorce rate when women earn more. So ultimately, it wasn't about earning more,

it was about men not doing enough in the household. And that's what contributed to the increase in the divorce rate. And so what you'd find is, you know, a woman could step into the role, the man didn't want to pick up any more of the household responsibilities that bred a lot of resentments, and that can lead to a higher divorce rate. And I heard that anecdotally, too, from some women who had moved into the breadwinner role and did end up getting divorced was that it really wasn't that she was earning more. It was that she was earning more and then also picking up the second shift at home and also expected to lead in caregiving. And you just, you cannot be a primary caregiver and a primary breadwinner. That's, it's very difficult to do both those things, particularly if you have, you know, the more demanding job.

And so I think that's, it's really important to sort of detach being a breadwinner from these other factors. Because as I said, what researchers found when you actually dig into the data is that it wasn't about a woman earning more, it was about a man doing less around the house that really contributed to the increased in divorce rate. And also if a man was not working at all, that could have an impact, but that's kind of an unusual situation. And there's a whole lot more that can play into that too. Like if a man loses his job and he loses his identity and there's a lot wrapped up in that, you know, that can, that can have a spillover effect into the relationship. But again, this is not really about a woman being the breadwinner. But I think to your point, you know, if we are growing up,

we're growing up thinking of the conventional breadwinner model as the breadwinning model right now with a man earning more and the woman picking up more of the caregiving duties. It does take some communication, I think, with your partner if you don't end up in that situation just because you may have come into the relationship with certain expectations. And so it's definitely worth talking through those. I know my husband and I had to do that, but it's worth pointing out again that, you know, this is not an anomaly anymore.

Really, right now, you know, in 50% of households with kids under 18, women bring in at least 40% of the income. So our income is critical now. In the majority of households, there is a paradigm shift happening in the breadwinning model. We just have not caught up to that culturally. Yeah. And I think like one thing I think I've been realizing the past few years is we really need to let go of these gender norms and gender roles, especially as we have more conversations about what gender even is. We need to let go of these things. And really, if you talk specifically with your partner and don't make the assumptions based off these historical gender roles, you may actually find that you're on the same page. I mean, I've, you know, had conversations, so many women that have

had conversations for their partners, they're like, my partner's totally fine if they, you know, become the stay at home parent, because we had the conversation. And so don't just assume that they, you know, again, I think, yeah, we make so many assumptions about what they want, but actually talk to them, because they're also modern men. And they may also have different ideas of what they actually want. They may actually be very supportive and happy that you're the breadwinner or starting your own company and making more or what have you. So I think a lot of it also comes down to just kind of getting really, you know, niche down into just your own relationship and your own family and seeing what actually do we want and who cares

what other people think. Completely agree. I think, you know, we're sort of making our own rules here, right? Because there's no roadmap for this. We don't, a lot of us don't have a model to look to. But that also is really freeing because it allows you to have a discussion that's, you know, very candid and really about, okay, what pieces of this are really important to me? Like, what pieces of caregiving do I want to own? What, what, what do I want to pick up around the house? You know, how important is it to me to earn a lot? What's my career look like? What's your career look like? How do we make this work together? And those are conversations that, you know, those are really powerful conversations. And I have to say, you

know, my husband became the primary caregiver, I don't know, maybe six years, you know, like I tried to do both for a while and then it was really hard. And then he got a job where he could work from home and was able to pick up a whole lot of the caregiving responsibilities. And I watched his relationship with our sons just blossom. He has an incredible relationship with them. And I look at that and I compare it to my own situation with my dad. And we're very close now, but I know my dad has a lot of regrets because he was the sole breadwinner for many years, and he was just not around. And when my parents got divorced, my sister and I didn't even consider living with him because we just felt like we were much closer to our mom.

And that hurt him so deeply. And we've talked about it. And he said, you know, he really regrets not having the opportunity to spend more time with us when we were younger. And so I look to my husband and I think, you know what, this is, you know, this is really a gift. If you're each able to enjoy both the breadwinning role and the caregiving role in varying degrees rather than pigeonholing people into these roles, it means that both partners really get to enjoy both. And that's, I mean, that's such a gift. It really is. You know, I mean, both for your kids and just for your own self-esteem to be able to step into the breadwinning role is great for women too. I see so many benefits. And also showing your kids as role models that things can be different for when they're adults. I think the big important thing is shifting it for the next generation. So they don't, again,

become adults and have the same kind of assumptions or unconscious bias that we do in our generation. It's like being able to represent, yes, I mean, we do the housework 50-50 and we have this kind of different way of doing it. So showing that, yes, this can work and they have evidence of it so they can bring that into whatever their relationships are in the future. Yes, I think that's so powerful. It's a very good point. So obviously, you talk a lot about this in the book, but you also talk about kind of the actionable things, which I think, you know, women always crave, like, okay, what can we do? What are some kind of, you know,

little things that we can kind of do to make that big impact? And I think it's so important. I've been having so many conversations with women, especially in 2020, about how important certain things are to set yourself up for success or to protect yourself. Because, you know, again, one of the things you kind of talk about in the book is why it's so important to potentially be the breadwinner or just put yourself first in terms of finding your own financial independence is to have that kind of security, whether it's like, so you're not stuck in a relationship that's not good for you, or just to have options and freedom, which I think sometimes we take for granted or just don't really

think about. And man, like as someone who has really been, you know, focused on personal finance for since my mid 20s, that's the thing that is my driving kind of force is like I love to have that freedom and opportunities, great opportunities for myself. And so tell me a little bit. Tell me a little bit about what are some things that women, but also everyone who's listening should really focus on. I know you talk about having that safety net, building your own credit as two really important things that are very easy to set up. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think of thinking like a breadwinner, sort of an insurance policy, you know, like whether you're single or married or divorced, it's just to, to know that you are making the kinds of money choices that will support you no matter what is just like, it's an incredible sense of

security and confidence to have that no matter, you know, whether you end up the main earner or not. It's just, it's a good insurance policy. So some specific things that I talk about in the book, as you mentioned, I think credit has been sold to women in a really kind of dangerous way. In that, you know, credit cards are marketed to us as a way to close the gap between the life we can afford and the life we aspire to. And that's a really dangerous trap because once you start using your credit cards for that, you're now paying for your past basically instead of building towards your future. And interest rates on credit cards, as you know, are so high. So the first thing I talk about

is kind of shifting the way we think about credit, thinking about it like a breadwinner. So what's important with credit is to build good credit because that ultimately will save you so much money over the longterm. So if you think about as a brand winner, one of the things you want to be able to do is buy a house. And so in order to do that, if you were thinking, okay, my big goal is to buy a house, you'd be thinking, I need to build my credit so

that I have the best credit score so that when I get a mortgage, I can get the best possible rates. And those rates can mean the difference of literally tens of thousands of dollars over the course of your mortgage. So having a better credit score allows you to build wealth at a lower cost, right? Because if you're getting a mortgage to buy a house that will go up in value, you are building wealth with that house, with that investment. And being able to get a mortgage at a lower rate will save you so much money as you're doing that. So it's just key to think of it that way and not to think of your credit cards ever as closing that gap, but really thinking about how can I use them strategically, right? Like how can I use them to

get rewards points? How can I use them to get cash back? How do I use them to build my credit score so that when I take out a mortgage or if I want to start a business and I take out a business loan, I get the absolute best terms available and always, always, always pay your credit card bill off each month so that you're not carrying that debt. So that's one piece of it. Another big piece that we haven't talked about yet is negotiating. I know this is all over the place right now, but just the idea of negotiating like your future depends on it because it does, you know, your, your income, you know, if you're, uh, if you have a career

versus starting your own business, um, but if you are working for someone else, your income is the springboard for all your wealth building efforts and a difference of even $5,000 in your annual salary can snowball to more than a million dollars difference in cumulative earnings that you miss out on over the course of your career. That's based on a Carnegie Mellon study. So every $1,000 that you negotiate in your salary counts. It has this exponential effect because your raises are based on your base salary, right?

If you have a bonus, it's based based on your base salary, right? You know, if you have like a bonus, it's based often on your salary. Your percentage that you're putting into your 401k or any retirement plan is based on your salary. So it affects all of these other things. So when we think like, oh, I made a little less this year, it's not just the paycheck that's smaller. It's all these other things that come from that as well that are affected. So it's so important to earn as much as you can at any point in your career. The other thing that I feel like a lot of women, the message that a lot of us don't get is to become less dependent on our paychecks over time by building wealth. So I would say use every paycheck as an opportunity to become less dependent on your next paycheck.

And what I mean by that is that you take as much money as you can from every check that comes in and you start putting it to growing for you. It's working for you because the harder your money works for you, the less hard you'll have to work for your money ultimately. And the ultimate financial freedom is to get to the point where the returns from your investments are enough to cover your basic expenses. And then you are not dependent on a paycheck at all. It gives you so much more freedom. And ultimately, that's where you're going with retirement, right? But why wait until you're 65 or 75 to enjoy that? Why not build the wealth now? Because that will give you so many more choices in your future. Yeah. And one thing that I've found in the past couple of years, which is another way to kind of build wealth,

is as you feel more financially secure, you've got more money in the bank, you've got your investments, you feel like, okay, I'm not living paycheck to paycheck. I've actually I'm actually okay, I feel pretty good. You will feel more confident in terms of negotiating either 100% a new salary, a bonus, or you know, in my kind of situation, I basically negotiate every kind of project or, you know, situation that I'm working with with a new client. And I basically negotiate every kind of project or situation that I'm working with with a new client. And I feel more, I don't know, more confident in asking for more money if I know that I don't really need it because I've got my emergency fund.

I've got these other streams of income. So what a weird kind of ripple effect. They were like, oh, I'm more open to asking for more money, which will help me build my wealth if I've already built some wealth. Yes, exactly. I think that's such a good point. Because if you are heavily reliant on each paycheck, or you know, each project, imagine how you're showing up, you know, because you're kind of desperate for that paycheck, you are not going to feel confident speaking out, you're going to feel less confident negotiating. It is it's true, it really affects the way that we show up to and how

effective we can be because if, and, and, you know, if you're dependent on every paycheck, you know, that you are just vulnerable. You are in a constant state of vulnerability and that, that is not a comfortable place to be. So I totally agree. It has all these, you know, these additional effects. And, and as you start building your wealth, you're right. You're like, you're flexing that muscle, right? And as you negotiate the first contract, and you get a big contract, now you feel more confident going into the next negotiation. So it definitely has such a positive ripple effect. Absolutely. And I know you also talk about in the book how important it is. And I totally agree to have this always in your mind, like talk about money more with your

girlfriends or your family and just making it less of a secret or a taboo situation. And I guess this would, you know, similarly, because we did talk about how it has such a big effect, how you were talked about, you know, money or negotiation or investing as a kid, how you should talk to your children so they can hopefully not have to have the same kind of roadblocks or mental roadblocks in the future. So what would you kind of say? What are some good things that people should be openly talking about, whether it's their peers or even to their children? Yeah, I think both. One big thing is that we're still very closed up about our salaries and what we're charging if we are a business owner. But I think we sort of need to get over that. I can tell you just from,

I'm in so many networking groups right now, and we actually have conversations. And inevitably, when there's a conversation about, you know, how much did you charge for X amount? I can actually remember one last week, there was a whole string about how much do you charge to speak? And the range was unbelievable. And now people have different amounts of experience, but it was like, oh, I charge for accommodation and travel is one end. And then other people are charging $10,000. And in some cases, we're talking about the same event. And there were these moments as the string was going on where people said, oh my gosh, I can't believe you asked for that much and you don't have that much more experience than I did. And, um, and so that's what can happen when you start talking is you realize,

Oh my gosh, someone is asking for the same amount as I am. And we have the same, or sorry, they're asking for more than I am. And we have the same amount of experience. I should be asking for more, but you, if you don't have that information, it's really hard sometimes to negotiate because you're sort of negotiating blind. So I definitely think it's worth talking about it. And I can tell you there's, I'm in this group chief and one of the things that was passed around, there's a negotiating and compensation channel and someone created a spreadsheet and people put in their information anonymously. I like that. It was fascinating. I mean, it was, you know, like $100,000 difference in some of these salaries and every, you had to put in how much experience you had, what kind of business it was, but you looked at that and you realized,

oh my gosh, some people here are really being underpaid. And I can imagine if I was that person who then looked at the spreadsheet, I would say, wow, now I have real data, real data, market data showing that people in a very similar position to me in similar industries are making a lot more than I am. But having that actual data is so important. You know, like even if you're negotiating a raise, if you come back and people have done, people who report to me have done this, and I really respect it. If they come in and they say, look, I looked at market rates, and someone who does what I do, you know, XYZ, these various responsibilities that I have, and they're working at other companies in our area, are making, you know, $5,000 to $10,000 more than I am on average. Here's the range. It's really hard to argue with

that, right? It's hard to argue with numbers. I think it's so powerful to have that kind of data and to just talk about it. And I find also that women, you know, as we talk about it, we're sharing tips where, you know, because I think there's a real feeling now that we will not close these gaps unless we work together. You know, if one of us rises, all of us rise. It's very, you know, there's a much more collaborative attitude now, I feel like, among women than in the past where we were really sort of told, oh, there's only one seat.

You all have to compete. Yeah, exactly. It's like, no, there's more seats than that. There should be. That's what we're trying to do. And there won't be more if we're all constantly competing for one. You know, we need to be demanding more seats. We're realizing that.

So that's really powerful. And with kids, you know, again, I think it's just being really open about money. Like this is what this costs, you know, mommy or daddy is making this money so that we can pay for X, Y, Z, you know, like this is what college costs or this is what a, you know, the can of Coke costs, like whatever, however old the kids are, there are constant opportunities for lessons to help them really understand, first of all, just what the cost of living is and how you afford it, but also like little ways of teaching them about investing and about saving. Like we talked about Roblox just went public. So I was talking to my 10-year-old son about it and we were tracking the stock and how it's doing and why it's going up. And it was

just like there are opportunities like that to teach lessons because I think kids, by the way, are paying a lot more attention to the stock market now to certainly GameStop, all that, you know, the GameStop phenomenon really helped people that because it was everywhere was all over TikTok. So both my boys were like, what is this?

And asking me questions about it and my husband. So again, I just, I think there are constant opportunities to teach them. And it's so important that we do. But the ultimate message really needs to be like, live on less than you earn always. And from the very first check that you get, start putting money away into savings and investing, period. Like just have that on a post it somewhere in your wallet to remind yourself, right? 20%, save and invest the other 20%. And if you

do nothing else, you should be okay. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, yeah, this is such a great reminder for people. And I think a lot of people are going to get a lot out of your book. I really enjoyed it. It really did kind of Yeah, made me reflect. And again, I'm always you know, it's great having guests on this show that have such you know, I've done so much great I'm always, you know, it's great having guests on the show that have such, you know, I've done so much great research and have, you know, such great resources, because it's also a learning tool for me to be like, Hmm, how can I do a bit better? And how can I, or how can I shift how I talk to people, I'm trying to become a lot more aware to have some of the unconscious bias I have in delivering information and how I can kind of

do better so we can all do better in the future. So I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show. And with this book, where can people find more information about you and grab a copy of the book? Yeah, so you can find out more about the book and about me at Jennifer Barrett.com. It's be like a boy a double r e double t. Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. It was a pleasure having you. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. It was a pleasure having you on. Oh, thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. And that was episode 278 with Jennifer Barrett. Make sure to get a copy of her book,

Think Like a Breadwinner. You can also find more information about her in the book at jenniferbarrett.com. And you can follow her on Twitter and Instagram at jbarrettnyc. You can find all the links to what I've just mentioned in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 278. And of course, you can find show notes for any episode I've done in the past at either jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast or jessicamorehouse.com slash the number of that particular episode. Like I mentioned, I am giving away a copy of her book. I'm giving away copies of lots of other books that have been featured on the season of this show. So go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash contests to find more information and to enter to win. I will be closing

down that contest and drawing winners in June. So you still have some time because I am going to be adding new books as new authors are, you know, join me on the podcast so that it will be something to look forward to because we really don't have a ton to look forward to. I'm really disappointed. I, me and my husband were, we booked an Airbnb thinking, you know, and this was a while back, thinking that things would open up and things would be a little bit better here in Ontario. And of course, it got shut down, we got locked down again, or, or, you know, booking was canceled. So I literally have nothing to look forward to. So that's cool. Not to put it, let's talk about something more happy, right? I'm doing just fine over here. So like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, one thing I am super pumped and

excited about, honestly, it is something that brings a big smile to my face every single day, is seeing just like the journeys and the transformations of all the students in my Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course. It is so freaking cool seeing people enter the course with no knowledge really when it comes to investing or, you know, very little or, you know, they just want those answers to their questions. They cannot find it anywhere and I'm there to help them. So it is so exciting. You can find more information about the course in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 278 or jessicamorehouse.com slash shop. But essentially, it is a course to walk you through

all the key steps you need to take to be an informed and confident investor. And then I show you how to actually take action, have specific video tutorials to show you how to use a robo-advisor, how to build your own ETF portfolio if you want to be a self-directed investor, how to actually compare different portfolios, how to build a portfolio, what are the different portfolios you can choose from, what are the different models that you can kind of replicate? I've got so much stuff in this course, it will actually blow your mind. And I know I'm not doing it justice. You know, there's so much in there, which, you know, I can share more about if you learn more about the course

and book a call with me, and we can kind of go through it. But it's so amazing seeing all the students who've signed up and have done all of the work. And it's already cool just seeing how much like how much they've changed in terms of their investments. And it'll be very exciting to to see over time, especially, you know, if we get to like that one year mark to see where did you start? And where did you end up? So freaking exciting. I mean, again, we're not going anywhere anytime soon. I haven't seen my family for over a year, and I don't know when I will be able to do that. So the best thing you can kind of do is to keep yourself busy and to tackle some of those things that are, they're on your to do list, but you've probably been avoiding, such as, you know, getting your financial house in order or changing your

investment plan, learning about investing more specifically, so you could actually do something different and start building your wealth. So this is one way you can go about it. So yeah, again, you can find more information at JessicaMorehouse.com slash shop. What else do I have to share with you? I feel like nothing. I feel like nothing exciting is happening. Really? I think what I will announce very soon, probably in the month of May is a webinar that I will do on the subject of investing. I think it's been time I haven't done a webinar for a long time. So that is something that I am probably going to do. Also, just in case, you know, you're on my email list, or you've been listening to the podcast for a while, and you're wondering, hey, whatever

happened to that other course that you shut down my Fix Your Finances Masterclass? So yeah, so a little update on that. So I shut it down in December, because I was going to do the same thing as you know, I did with my investing course, shut it down so I can kind of rebuild it, make it even better. And that is still the plan. Of course, I was a bit ambitious and thought I could both launch them at the same time. Of course, that's not gonna, that didn't happen. So you can look forward to the new version of that course, which has a new name and not going to share it yet. But it's looking like it'll be ready for June, which I'm very excited about. But if you want to stay in the loop, just get onto my email list, jessicamorehouse.com slash subscribe. I only send out my bi-weekly newsletter, bi-weekly obviously, to let you know about all that good stuff. But yeah, so that's something to look forward to. Also some free stuff that you

may or may not be aware of, depending on if you're a new listener or not. I have a ton of freebies on my website. And this, you know, kind of resource library, if you go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash resources, I have a ton of, you know, some of my free budget spreadsheets, free worksheets, cheat sheets, like so many different free downloads. So you can check those out at JessicaMorehouse.com slash resources. And last but not least, if you don't know, I have a YouTube channel as well where I, you know, different than the podcast because I kind of just focus on a specific topic and, you know, teach you what you need to know about a specific topic, which is always kind of exciting. So if you want to check that out, please do so.

Go to jessicamorehouse.com slash YouTube or Google Jessica Morehouse in the search box for YouTube and subscribe. And also let me know what you would like me to do some future videos on. So that is it for me. I have a very exciting episode with a celebrity next week. I can't believe I got her on the show and I'm so excited to have this episode to share with you. So I look forward to that. Some exciting things going on. So thank you so much for listening and a big thank you to my podcast editor, Matthew Rideout.

Have a good rest of your week, everybody. Stay safe. I will see you back here next Wednesday. this podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network