More Money Podcast - 282 Why Women Continue to Earn Less Than Men - Annabelle Williams, Author of Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and Financial Journalist

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

For years the conversation around women and wealth has centred on the gender pay gap in the workforce, but is that really the only reason why women are earning significantly less than men? Today’s guest is here to answer that question and give amazing insight into why women are statistically the poorer sex. Annabelle Williams joins me today from the United Kingdom and is a financial journalist and newly published author. Annabelle has had two weekly columns in The Times of London and has recently released her first book, Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and What We Can Do About It, which explores the inequality in money and wealth between the sexes. It includes examples from all over the world including large sections focused on North America. Annabelle gave such amazing hard-hitting facts and statistics on why women have historically been unable to attain the same wealth as men. We talked about several topics that are more thoroughly discussed in her new book, but topics covered today include why women are often the ones paying more for things because of societal pressures and norms that men don’t have to contend with and how ownership and leadership roles are two of the biggest factors in the pay gap. For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/282 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show. This is episode 282, and we're diving into a very deep topic. I am very excited about it. My next guest on the show, Annabelle Williams, is from across the pond in England, and she wrote an amazing book called Why Women Are Poorer Than Men. I actually found out about her and her book on Twitter somehow. Someone must have retweeted her. And I'm like, I'm sorry, someone wrote a book called Why Women Are Poorer Than Men. I need to read this book and I need to have her on my show. And it's an amazing book. And so a little bit about Annabelle. So she's a

financial journalist. She had two weekly columns in the Times of London and has just released her first book, Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and What We Can Do About It. See, solutions. And the book looks at the inequality in money and wealth between men and women and includes examples from all over the world, including big sections on North America and a little bit in Canada. I mean, honestly, although lots of the data and research she's done is, you know, based in the UK, it's so applicable to if you're in the US or Canada. I was reading the whole book and just, you know, kind of nodding my head like, yeah, yeah, I've experienced that. Or I totally get that. Or we have that in Canada here, or I've heard from my friends in the US, this is what's going on totally. Yeah, it's it really

was one of those books where it's it's an eye opener. Like as a woman, I know that there is inequality. Obviously, I experienced it firsthand. And I see I witnessed it firsthand as well. But to kind of see some of the stats, it really is shocking. So we dive deep into it. So I know you're gonna love this, especially to if you are not a woman, this is a great episode just to maybe learn some things that you didn't know. Um, and a great conversation to have with whoever, I mean, I know we're all still in general at home and stuff like that, but this is a, I mean, a great book club topic. Actually, if you're in a book club, what a great topic, a great book to discuss. Maybe I'll bring it up to my book club. Actually, this would totally be a great, a great choice.

So I'm so excited to have Annabelle on the show. We are going to talk about some really good stuff. So before I get to that interview with Annabelle, just a few words I want to share about this podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by VIPKid. If you've been listening to my podcast since the very beginning, then you may already know that for me, starting a side hustle in my 20s was a literal game changer. It was the reason that I was able to save up an emergency fund, start investing, travel, and achieve so many other financial goals that would have been very difficult if I relied solely on my salary. And in this weird time where many of us are still stuck at home or looking to find new ways to earn extra income, there's one side hustle I would have jumped at. Teaching students English online

through VIPkid. VIPkid is a platform where people in the U.S. and Canada can teach English as a second language to kids around the world. All you need is a bachelor's degree, at least two years experience teaching or working with children, and that can be anything from nannying to coaching or mentoring, even parenting, and eligibility to work in the United States or Canada. Not only that, you can expect to earn between $14 to $22 US per hour plus incentives, and you have 100% flexible scheduling. That means you can work when you want, wherever you want. All you need is a strong Wi-Fi connection.

To learn more about VIPKid, which was named one of Glassdoor's top 10 best places to work in 2019 and 2020, and the number one company for remote jobs, visit jessicamorehouse.com slash VIPkid. Once again, to learn more, visit jessicamorehouse.com slash VIPkid or check out the show notes for this episode. Welcome to the More Money Podcast, Annabelle. I'm so excited to have you on the show. I loved your book. And I've got to say, I'm telling you this in confidence, even though I'm recording this, I don't necessarily read all the books from the people who are on my show. I don't have time, but I read your book and I loved it. And I honestly, surprisingly got through

it in a very short amount of time. Like I couldn't put it down. Thank you, Jessica. That's fantastic to hear. I've tried to make the book not a misery memoir because so much of what's written about kind of women and wealth and money is actually really difficult to read. It's painful to read. So this is very much not a misery memoir. And I'm also very much aware that a lot of people aren't that interested in reading about pensions. To be quite honest, I've been a pensions reporter, but I'm not that interested in reading about retirement in my To be quite honest, I've been a pensions reporter, but I'm not that interested in reading about retirement in my spare time either. So it covers lots of things, and there are really short chapters. So if you get sick of reading about one thing,

skip ahead a few pages, and it will be on a different topic. Exactly. But yeah, it's not a misery memoir. But I will say there were so many points where I stopped and looked at my husband. I'm like, did you know this? Of course, he's so much more educated now because I basically told him everything that's in the book. So he's learning a lot. But yeah, it was actually shocking. Like obviously you focused a lot on the UK and then sometimes you did talk about Canada and the US. But a lot of these things I know are very similar here and in other countries, other developed countries. And it was really shocking. I think a lot of us, you know, modern women may not really understand or know the history of what us women have gone through in terms of getting independence and all these different things. And basically,

the answer to why women are poorer than men and why we keep talking about it. It was shocking and really made me sad. It made me sad because growing up, and I think, you know, this was intentional by my parents, they were, you know, very supportive, you know, it's me and two sisters. So it's a lot of women in our household. I was always told you can do whatever you want. I never thought there actually was a, you know, a difference between the genders in terms of what you could achieve, or was a, you know, a difference between the genders in terms of what you could achieve, or even like, you know, who makes more, it really wasn't until I think I kind of entered university even is still like I was I went to film school. And so it was actually very

male dominated. But it wasn't it that didn't actually deter me. It's like, okay, yeah, that's kind of normal. But it wasn't until I entered the workforce that I realized, oh, wow, this is very different than the bubble that I came from thinking that, oh, we're all equal and everything's the same. No. And it was actually pretty shocking. A wake up call in my early 20s. And then it's something now that I, especially now working in finance and being a financial educator, it's something that I feel is so passionate about teaching everybody, but also women, because there really aren't still many voices that talk about generating wealth and investing

and things that you need to do and stuff like that. So I appreciate your book. It really does answer so many questions. And you also mentioned at the beginning of your book, which I appreciate. I'm like, oh, I don't think she's talking about me, but I definitely know. I think I don't think she's talking about me, but I definitely know. I think I know some people she's kind of maybe talking about or I can identify some people

that she may mention. You talk about the kind of women financial gurus who are kind of talking about personal finance in a, you know, empowerment way. And I totally get what you're saying. But I also see some other conversations from people I know, which I appreciate. And they're kind of more in line with the messaging in your book is, it's not about us women being like, do more. It's we also have to recognize the circumstances we're in and kind of the injustices that were dealt with. It's not just about asking more money during your job

interview. It's sometimes you'll ask and you still won't get it because of the situation. Yeah, sure. So, I mean, I can really empathise with what you've said. You know, I say in the book, and I believe this, that there has never been a better time to be a woman. We've got so many opportunities, but at the same time, there's a hidden inequality that persists in money and wealth, despite all of the other ways in which we are equal with men. And I think the real problem is that the narrative around this has focused on the pay gap.

So whilst it's fantastic that that's really come to the fore, and it's been a big talking point on both sides of the Atlantic, I mean, not much has been done to actually change that in Britain or America. But we've kind of got stuck talking about the workplace and actually wealth inequality and the reasons why women aren't ranked among the richest people in America. There are only very few of them. And the reasons why women make up the majority of the poor in developing and rich countries all over the world. You know, it's so much more than just what goes on in the workplace. And it's rooted in history. And you mentioned there the kind of sort of financial gurus. And I feel like the discussion around women and money has become really binary. So there was the Sheryl Sandberg's book, Lean In.

She was a former senior person at Facebook and her seminal work, Lean In, she said that women, basically, the opportunities are out there, you just need to go after them and you need to put your hand up and have a seat at the table and all of of that. And to be, you know, that was kind of an overview of her book. But, you know, in many ways, she was more nuanced than that, to give her credit. So there's this kind of mindset. It's really binary that, oh, just women just need to basically advocate for themselves in the workplace. And by all means, be your own best friend, you know, do that. There's so many ways in which you can um kind of work to make yourself feel better in the workplace to get the jobs you want you know to have the career that

you want but at the same time the structure of our society no amount of self-advocacy is going to change a system that is structured to keep women poorer than men you know and we can see that with regards to um you know child care and the costs involved in that or, you know, in retirement saving systems where, which were designed by men for men, you know, women can't really compete. So there's just a bigger conversation to be had, I think. Yeah. I mean, I remember reading Cheryl's book when it came out and it, I mean, it was a huge, you know, everyone read it. It was, it was definitely, you know, everyone was talking about it and I think, you know, yeah, she has some good things in it. But now we're kind of having this different lens. It's interesting because, yeah, a lot of what she was saying was, again, you as't work. Or it's like, well, actually, it's not about, you know, us women doing more because, man, are we doing a lot? If you think about it, it's also we need,

you know, just like the workplace to change, the leadership to change, policies to change. And I think that's like a bigger conversation. But yeah, with all these, you know, there's a ton of like in the financial space or just in just other spaces, you know, women empowerment, it really is talking to women. And I get it because you, you're as a woman, you're looking for some action steps. You're like, what can I do? But it's like, well, there's only so much you can do. I mean, I read her book, I tried to lean in, I still didn't make more, I asked for a raise, I asked for a promotion, I still didn't get it. So it's, there's still these barriers that we all face that are kind of beyond our control, which is I think that the conversations I'm starting to see a lot more that we need to have a lot more of because, yeah, there's only

so much that we can personally do as individuals or as a, you know, collective. Yeah, so fundamentally, the reasons why women tend to have less money than men throughout their lives is really because of ideas about what each gender should be doing with their time, what each gender is suited to, and also ideas about our aptitude with money, which often are myths. And all of this is rooted in history. So if we take it back it back historically women couldn't have property or they couldn't own anything because they were property i know and that was like so hard to read first we belong to our fathers and then to our husbands oh my gosh we were assets we were essentially traded through marriage parents and siblings were complicit in the exchange of their girls for dowries. And this sounds like outrageously medieval, but it persisted. So medieval English law,

which was later exported to the American colonies, considered women chattels, which is basically a movable possession, just like a pack horse. So when women got married, we became indivisible from our husbands. It meant that women couldn't keep their wages, enter into contracts or own property, couldn't write a will. Any possessions that a wife brought to the marriage became her husband's. Even if a man wanted to make a legal agreement with his wife, he couldn't because it would have been like making an agreement with himself. Own, you know, ownership is intrinsic to power. It meant that basically for generations, women were locked out of owning assets that could rise in value and could give them a sense of independence and something to fall back on should the man not be there for any reason.

It's just, yeah, crazy. Like you, I feel like I've heard of this and I mean I am a nerd and love a good period piece and that's how and it's always I'm always fascinated by that kind of uh when they talk about money and why you're like oh why did this like old lady never get remarried you know this movie is maybe a romance or something it's like it's because she wanted financial independence and that was the only way that she can continue to like not become her husband's property and you're like that is just wild that that really wasn't that long ago when you really take a look at it. I mean, even looking at, you know, my grandparents, they kind of, you know, my, you know, grandmas, they were kind of, you know, the property of

their husbands or, or, or even maybe not in, in, you know, legal, the legal sense, but when you look at their roles, it's like, wow, my grandma did so much and kind of got nothing for it. And it's exactly that that you allude to, that your grandma did so much, but nobody gave her credit. Well, guess what's still happening today? So, you know, because women were property, indivisible from their husbands we couldn't have things it also meant that we never got credit for any of our achievements so the first woman inventor in america was a woman called sibilia masters she invented a new corn mill in 1712 but the patent went under her husband's name and then um a similar thing happened. So the first women to open a stockbroker business on Wall Street was Victoria Woodhull and her sister Tennessee. It was 1870.

And Victoria said, I went onto Wall Street, not particularly because I wanted to be a stockbroker, but because I wanted to plant the flag of women's rebellion in the centre of the continent. That's fantastic, but she literally was hounded. Newspaper cartoons depicted her as the devil. She was evicted from her home due to the notoriety. Her children were withdrawn from school. She continually had to fend off claims that she was unnatural and wicked. And all that she wanted to do was set up a stockbroker and get involved in money. Imagine her dismay if she knew that 150 years later, the most powerful position in America still hasn't been held by a woman, even though more than 200 women have run for president.

I know. It's still, that's the shocking thing is reading about history and then being like, oh, but it's so much better now. But then you really do look at those leadership roles. And we're still having conversations about we need to have, you know, legislation or policies or requirements by companies to have, you know, either an equal or more women on their boards. It's like, why are we still talking about this? This should already have been solved, don't you

think? Sure. And, you know, we talk about female poverty, but I really feel that there's the wealth gap affects women at all stages of their, at all kind of stages of life, but also in all socioeconomic classes. So when I talk about wealth, I don't mean like riches and CEO level pay. I just mean the amount of assets and possessions and savings that each person is able to accumulate. And in general, women just aren't able to accumulate as much over our lifetimes. So actually, in the US, the wealth gap is huge between men and women. The typical single American man has wealth of around $30,000, while a woman has less than half as much, closer to $15,000. There are other aspects. So female poverty has really been driven by the rise in

single mothers. So we know that women are 90% of lone parents. And while it's far more socially acceptable to be a single mum, women are penalised financially for being lone parents far more harshly than they were in previous generations. And if you don't believe that, look at this. In 1960, less than a third of lone parents were in poverty. But by the 80s, this had more than doubled. And we know during Trump's presidency, for example, he actually rolled back a lot of spending that was on specifically female programs. It's a this is a it's kind of a it's a generational thing. It's kind of accepted that women are poorer than men. And if anything, it's got worse. You even talk about this in your book. And this has also been, you know, lots of conversations

about, you know, the kind of pink tax. It's not only are we earning less, but we also are spending more on stuff than men. And it's almost like we kind of have to either to be socially acceptable, whether it's like, you know, beauty care, or, you know, I mean, for me, I'm like, I have to spend so much more money on haircuts than my husband, not because I want to, but because I kind of have to, because you go get your hair. And I feel like that may have been in your book, actually wasn't about haircuts. You know, like my haircuts, really, at the end of the day, it's not that much more complicated than say, a man getting his haircut, but I've spent maybe three times or four times more. Especially if you're a woman with short hair, like there are women that literally have the

same haircut as a guy, but they're still charged more. Um, and it's similar things. Like if you take, go to the dry cleaner with a woman's blouse, um, A man's shirt is practically the same, but the woman's item will normally be charged more for dry cleaning. But the thing is, is that, you know, there are men out there that say, well, women don't have to buy any of this stuff. You know, you don't have to buy the pink razor or, you know, makeup or whatever. Actually we do. So I looked into lots of the research around beauty expectations and the way in which women are penalized in the workplace for not living up to them. So women perceived as being overweight basically face a pay penalty so that when women are underweight, they tend to earn

more money. And if you plotted weight and pay on a chart, then as women get heavier, their average pay falls. While for men, it's the opposite actually. Underweight men tend to be penalized financially. While for men, the bulkier they are, the more their salary rises until they reach the point where they are very obese, at which point they are penalized. That just blew my mind. It really does. Because it's about perspective. What is a too big person? I mean, if you're a woman, the standard now is just, whoa, so skinny. Yeah. When I read that book, I'm like, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Because I've heard throughout my lifetime, well, you don't have to, you know, dress a certain way, you don't have to wear makeup, you don't have to dye your hair, you know what you actually do, because and I always knew I didn't have the statistic to back

me up. But I'm like, I know, you will earn more or like, for instance, for me, my business, I run my own business. And so I know if I didn't wear makeup, or really, you know, do my hair and put that kind of effort in, I wouldn't be able to charge as much for whatever I'm selling or a brand partnership or something like that because of society's expectations. Like that is just what's going on. But now you have statistics to show that. So that's really at least confirming for me. But yeah, it's frustrating. And another thing that, you know, kind of talking about these things that we all know, but we don't really talk about and we should because these need to change is the idea that women also pay more for certain things because there is unconscious bias for certain

things like home renovations, getting your car fixed. And I didn't really realize it kind of reminded me when I was, you know, reading your book is, for instance, if we ever need to fix something in our home, typically, and I was doing this unconsciously, I would get my husband to actually email them and talk to them instead of me because I know he would probably get a better rate. And that really freaked me out that I'm like, I didn't even realize I was doing that. But I knew I was going to get like I would get even though we're on the same level, we don't really know much about renovations. I know he would, they would take him more seriously because he's a man, even if he was talking to a woman. And that's just wild that that's still happening. Yeah. I mean, I used to do that with my dad. I

would get him to call a plumber or an electrician and negotiate with them because, yeah, I really felt that I would be penalized against. And when I looked into the data, that is actually what happens. So when women go to a car dealer to try to buy a used car, they are typically given higher prices. And this again happens all over the world. I read studies from China and the US. What is interesting is that the one way you can go and get around this is when you go into a negotiation over, say, car repairs or something, basically, the person you're speaking to is acting on the assumption that if you are a woman or actually an ethnic minority, you're going to be less well-informed.

So what you can do is, firstly, basically own the conversation and say something that basically will let them know that you are well informed about the technicalities of what's going on and also what things cost in the market. And it's also a really great idea if you mention a price first, because then that anchors the negotiation in figures and it helps to move the focus away from kind of bias and, oh, you're a woman and all of this. So those are two things that you can really do to get around it. Yeah, no, when I read that, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, yeah, that is definitely something I need to always work on. It's like, no, have your price point in mind.

Do your research beforehand to show, no, I'm serious. And I know what I'm talking about. And I, that's I guess they just assume men will have already done that. Maybe they will, or they'll just know, even if a man doesn't come up with a number, they'll just, you know, probably still give him a better rate. But yeah, that's just like one little thing that I think all of us women have experienced that we need to, you know, be aware of and do what we can to kind of fix this unconscious bias. Yeah, it's, it's wild, even reading your book. But yeah, this unconscious bias has been, you know, we've been talking a lot about it, you know, in terms of race, especially, but it also comes

down to gender. And it's not just a, oh, well, men have unconscious bias, women also have unconscious bias. And I know, I feel like I have some that I need to work on. You know, when you're, say, looking to hire somebody, when you're comparing men to women, I need to be aware of, you know, kind of maybe some of the things that come into my mind. Like, I feel like you kind of talked about this a little bit in the book. But yeah, we just have certain expectations, depending on gender that may be, you know, just stereotypes are totally unfounded. Yeah. And this issue of unconscious bias is one of the reasons that I think it's a mistake when we do talk about the pay gap to try to reframe it as a motherhood penalty. There was a Netflix documentary on women and pay, and it had speakers like Hillary Clinton. She's a fantastic person, but the whole kind of arc of the narrative in that documentary was that actually it's not a pay gap, it's just a motherhood gap. The fact is that women basically receive lower pay than men who are educated equivalently straight out of college.

If you have two CVs and you call one Harry and one Harriet, the female one will be judged as being less competent, less employable, and she'll be given a lower salary. And then it's similar things for when it comes to the way people are graded in the workplace. So there was one law firm which had 2,000 employees in offices across the world. And they looked at how people were graded in their appraisals. They found that no matter what the scale, 1 to 10 or 1 to 6, bosses always wanted to give men, they were more comfortable giving men nine out of 10 or 10 out of 10 than they were. Even if the grade was out of six, men tended to get six out of six. It's like we're more comfortable with exceptionalism and genius and achievement being

male attributes. And there are similar things in letters of recommendation. The language used for women will basically be less spectacular, whereas the language used for men will often be a lot stronger, like he is exceptional, talented, gifted, etc. That's just so unfortunate, too. And I feel like I know lots of people that are, for instance, aware of this, especially thinking about them having children and them entering the workforce. Maybe I'm going to give my daughter a gender-ne name. So they don't have to, you know, if it's like Aaron or something like that. So they don't have to deal with, you know,

when they get their resume looked at, they can't really judge them on gender because maybe it won't be as obvious. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the areas where I feel that, you know, we talk about the things that women can do for themselves, but actually there are structural solutions that need to be implemented. So, you know, CVs as a rule should be gender blind and, you know, indicators of your age, your kind of ethnic background and your sex should just be removed from CVs as standard and they should just be judged on career history and qualifications. Similarly, when Barack Obama was president, he changed the rules so that it was no longer unlawful for federal employees to

talk about pay in the office with each other. That's the kind of thing that just opens up transparency because you can tell women like, oh, negotiate negotiate your pay but most of us haven't got a clue what we're negotiating for you know there's no anchor um what you should be negotiating around um in some states in the us and in some countries in the world it's actually um illegal for employers to ask candidates about their former salary. And that's because if you base your next salary on the former salary, it risks carrying any discrimination forward. But at the same time, it doesn't even make sense because the salary for a role should have nothing to do with what somebody decided to pay you 10 years ago. And just as another example, there's a Scandinavian

country, I think it's Denmark, where they've basically set up a database of what everybody earns. They found that when they left the database open access, there was a lot of snooping. But when they tweaked the system so that if you looked at somebody else's profile and saw how much they were earning, it would leave a trace. They found that the amount of kind of snooping just dropped massively and people were no longer looking up random people from their high school and seeing how much they earned today, but actually they did look up what their co-workers were earning. And it's that kind of transparency that's really necessary. I'm not saying we need to go the Denmark way and go all out, but there are structural

things that need to be done that, you know, will really help fix the system. Well, yeah, you just even mentioning the, and that was something that always irritated me when I did, you know, work for different companies as an employee was every interview I ever had. So I think this is still pretty prevalent in Canada. They would always ask me, oh, you know, they would ask your salary expectations, which you're kind of like guessing, I don't know how much should I be? Because rarely do they advertise what kind of the range is. And then also ask you what your previous salary is. You're like, well, I don't, you know, in your mind, you're like, I don't want to tell you because why do you think I'm leaving my current employer is because I want to earn more money.

So if I tell you what I'm earning there, it's unlikely that you're going to tell me, you know, give me a higher salary. I feel like that. And also that has nothing to do with anything because typically, it's you're not doing maybe a lateral move. But even if you are, that doesn't matter. You have more experience under your belt than when you first started your first job. But you're maybe going for, you know, it's a different job at a higher level. going for, you know, it's a different job at a higher level. But yeah, I mean, I think the last interview I went on before I decided to go self employed, because I'm like, I've had enough. It was maybe five years ago now. And it

was for so I worked for a law firm and marketing, I was going to, you know, interviewing at a competing law firm. And yeah, that's what they asked. I'm like, but this is a completely different role. And I think quite honestly, what I did was I just lied about my previous salary. I'm like, as if they're ever going to ask my employer, you know what, maybe they will, but I doubt it. I feel like that's just like a question they ask. But I'm like, it doesn't matter. Because now, yeah, now you're putting me in this kind of cycle of always under earning because I was under earning at the beginning of my career because I'm a woman. And now how can I ever exceed, you know, that and then yeah, speaking about, there should absolutely be more transparency in terms of, you know,

you understanding what other people earn, you know, widely, but also within your own workplace, I only found out what people would earn when I was on the way out because I'm like, I have nothing to lose. And it's not inappropriate because I'm like, you can tell me. I'm not going to do anything with this information. And then I'd find out. And then, of course, I'd always find out that I'm earning less than my male counterparts who were, you know, less qualified, less experienced, not as good at their job as most of the other people on the team. And and yeah and it was always just so shocking like there needs to be a better way because this like who is this helping

besides I guess the employer you know saving a little bit of money but then you're also not retaining I would assume uh your employees or your top performers uh because they're you know being underpaid yeah absolutely like the last time um i was looking at a job application and it said uh what are your salary expectations i wrote my salary expectations are what the company's budgeted for this role because that's what i want to be earning and there was a feminist group that i read of that was basically campaigning for women to when they see that question, put in a million dollars or a million pounds, whatever your currency, just say, that's what you're worth. Because there's this whole narrative, like, ask for what you're worth. Well,

I don't like equating salary with worth because there are people who do, and mostly women, who do such worthy and worthwhile jobs. And salary is not a reflection of what you're worth. It's just what you happen to be paid at that period of time. And it's a combination of all sorts of factors. But ultimately, the only people that benefit from the way the system is set up at the moment are employers. And there are other areas. example you know when we talk about why women don't invest um so women tend not to invest their money in stocks and shares to the same degree that men do when we do have savings it's more likely to be held in cash now the investment industry is really keen to change this they want more customers and it doesn't make sense if nearly

half the population aren't investing their money. But the narrative around this is usually like women are just shy of risk. They don't like investing in the stock markets. When I became a financial journalist and I read that, I just thought, what women? Which women are you talking about who are afraid of risk? To me, it just seemed patently obvious that women don't invest their money in the stock market because they're acutely aware of their household's short-term needs and outgoings. There's this stat in marketing that women make 80% of spending decisions. And that's usually because they're tasked with buying stuff

for everybody in the family, like the kids, but also the husband, and they're the person that does the weekly shop. But at the same time, when it comes to investments and the family's mortgage and that kind of thing, it tends to be left to the guy. And I think that it's really important that we reframe this, that women aren't risk averse. I mean, there's a tendency for that kind of mindset to become a self-fulfilling prophecy and actually um studies of people who are highly paid and also highly educated um so there was one study of university professors for example found that when you take um socioeconomic status out of it and you look at people who have a lot of money or are expecting an inheritance, women are no less hungry for risk in the stock market than men are. And actually, when men invest

in stocks and shares, they tend to do it in more of a lottery style casino type way. So, they tend to buy shares. They tend to dip in and out of the markets, buy shares, sell them because they think they're at the peak, then maybe buy them again. Actually, that just racks up trading costs. And it's not as good a strategy as buy and hold. And women are far more likely to do this, which is buy some stocks that you have conviction in, and then keep them for 10 years and watch them go up and down. Don't try and be clever and beat the market. So yeah, there's just loads of research basically that shows that if you look at portfolios, on average, women tend to outperform men on the long term.

Yeah, no, that's definitely a narrative that I've seen. And in some part, yes, women are maybe a little more risk averse. But usually what I find, what I find it's not that they just are unwilling to take risk it's that they don't necessarily understand what that means and I think part of that is because depending on where you get your information for example if you see a financial advisor and it's a man or even a woman quite honestly because there is an unconscious bias there I feel like you are being talked to about investing in a different way than if they were talking to a man. So, you know, from my personal experience, they would talk to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about.

They wouldn't explain things. They would, you know, overload the conversation with jargon to kind of maybe impress me, but really just confuse me. And then they would say things about risk and be like, oh, well, maybe you need something more conservative in your portfolio, as if it's a way to be like, this is safer. And we like, you know, who doesn't want something that's safe? Of course, that sounds great. We don't want to, you know, lose all our money. But they don't frame it and be like, well, there's actually risk when you do something, you know, on the safe side or conservative, you're going to earn lower returns, which means, or potentially, and which means, ultimately, you'll have less wealth than if you were to take on more risk and I feel like a lot of it is just the the way that we're we're told things or spoken

to because I mean you know having this podcast and trying to promote you know women investing and taking on more risk I think a lot of it comes down to I didn't I didn't realize that most of the time women are in the wrong wrong portfolios for their goal and their time horizon and their actual personal risk tolerance because they just weren't, I think, given the same information as maybe their male counterparts. I absolutely agree with you. So I think one of the reasons that it was so interesting to go back and look at ways in which women were prevented from working in all sorts of industries, like in North America, you know, kind of in the 50s, women couldn't work in bowling alleys because they might be in contact with the wrong kind of

men. And there were all of these weird rules. And, you know, the outcome of that is that women haven't been able to talk to their daughters about money. So my mother is Irish. In Ireland, women couldn't own a home independently until 1976. So my mum and her five sisters would have been in their 20s. Some of them would have been in their 30s before that rule changed. So for them, there was just literally no concept that a woman would ever be financially independent. Having a home was something you did with a man. And it obviously meant that we were locked out of being able to buy an asset that would rise in value so how could my mum really have been able to

kind of instill in me and my sister that owning a home was something to really do like it was left to my dad and that was understandable um so it's the same thing with finance. It's like women aren't engaged in that industry because women aren't in that industry. And, you know, when we talk about risk as well, it's this idea that women don't like risk is also meant to say in the upper echelons of business or enough women running countries for us to actually deduce anything about their appetite for risk. Lots of countries in the world have had one female leader as president or prime minister. Very few have done it again to have two. It's like they'll try it once, but oh no, not again. And there's also the concept of the glass cliff, which is when women are promoted to senior positions when the business is basically about to fall off a cliff and nobody else wants the job. A really good example is, so JCPenney, the retailer in the US, in its 100 plus year history,

had never had a woman at the helm until it was basically in the doldrums and things had just gotten tits up. They appointed a woman. We can look at the UK. The UK decided to leave the European Union, Brexit. All of the men in parliament kind of resigned, quit politics, stepped stepped back and then we had our second female prime minister theresa may nobody else wanted the job like that was a terrible time to be prime minister why did you want to do that yeah looking at some of the uk news and especially even like the how they speak about her and it's like she had an impossible task and no one wanted the job and so they're like well women they shouldn't be the prime minister i'm like um would you have done a better job and no

offense to your current prime minister but you know like but yeah i mean in canada we've had one woman prime minister she lasted less than a year and i'm pretty sure like i don't know all of the data about it but i'm pretty sure the only reason she got the job wasn't because she was voted in it's because again no one wanted job. And that was the only time we've had a woman prime minister. How sad is that? How sad is that? And like, what's fascinating is, so ideas about what women with money and women with leadership roles, they're really culturally constructed. So, I was fascinated to discover that in parts of Eastern Europe, there are women that earn more than men. There are pay gaps in favour of women in traditionally male industries, such as construction, waste management, water. This was a throwback to the soviet era when those um the soviet regimes wanted to prove that their

economic model worked and to do that they needed to get women out into the workforce in exactly the same jobs as men so there was unprecedented investment in female education and women were encouraged into basically male industries and over time um mean, there was resistance at first, but over time they were accepted. And then the end result of that is that women have been accepted in waste management and construction as leaders for so long that they earn more. And then the other case is every feminist's favorite country, of course, is Iceland. And in Iceland, there is a near unshakable belief that having women in power is good for everybody. And this really goes back to, it's a big icy nation, very harsh place to live. Men were often away for very long periods of time. Basically, it was a fishing nation and

women were left alone at home to kind of look after house and home and the kids. So there has always been this archetype of a strong woman. And that has basically translated into their politics. So in Iceland, there's a generation of girls that has grown up believing that presidents and prime ministers are female. So the country had the world's first democratically elected female president in 1980. She was re-elected three times and then she was followed by the world's first lesbian prime minister who was in office between 2009 to 2013. So there was this period basically from 1980 to 2013 when Iceland had women as president or prime minister and a

whole generation of girls grew up believing that that is women's role and then equally there are lots of little kind of niches where women are unusually present so in Argentina girls grew up believing that astrophysics is a career for women because the country's had a long tradition of gender diversity within that profession. So even back in the 80s, a quarter of Argentina's professional astronomers were female. I just find this kind of thing really fascinating because when we talk about women and pay, obviously we're looking at it through our um our western european and north american angle but in other parts of the world there are just different ideas like look at china for example um you know when we look at the coming decades the world's billionaires

the females are going to be coming from asia and south asia because over there there are just different ideas about women in senior leadership roles that we don't have here. Like we're really lagging behind in Canada, America and Britain. Yeah, we are, which is, I mean, yeah, the only thing Yeah, kind of I do appreciate that, like in your book, as you talk about what's kind of wrong with everything, but then at the end of the book, you do have some ideas and advice on what we as women and everyone can do, which I think is so, so helpful, because we're always looking for those action items. Obviously, this is a big issue that hopefully will not take hundreds of years to fix. We hopefully can do more than that

in the meantime. But yeah. Yeah. So my background is as a finance journalist, and I'm really passionate about investment and getting women to understand that it isn't something that's masculine and aggressive. And just like the weight section of the gym, there is literally no reason why women shouldn't go in there. With investment, I think that basically women haven't had very much access to that industry. And I think that there's so many connotations of like whiz kid traders and charts and all of this. But actually, when it comes down to it, investing in stocks is looking at the world we have, thinking about how the world might change, and you want to put your money into companies that will change the world or will create the

kind of world that you want to see. So, big areas at the moment for investors are sustainable energy and cleaning up water supplies. And these are the companies that people are pouring money into, are doing well. At the same time, we've had these big stock market launches when a company puts its shares on the market for the first time. It's called an IPO, Initial Public Offering. Last autumn, everybody was really excited about a company called Beyond Meat going onto the stock market for the first time. It makes fake meat burgers and sausages. And this sparked so much debate. Have Beyond Meat discovered the perfect fake meat sausage? Are they going to change the world? Will there be a world where eating animals is just seen as complete nonsense? Or will Beyond Meat just be one of many? Will there be a

competitor that usurps them or, you know, something else will happen that actually it isn't quite the superstar company that we think it is? So that's why investing is exciting to me. I think it's looking at the future and making predictions about the world that we'll live in. I completely agree. That's why I love talking about investing and getting more people, especially women, to invest as soon as possible. I know we could probably talk for another, Completely agree. That's why I love talking about investing and getting more people, especially women, to invest as soon as possible. I know we could probably talk for another, like, you know, 45 minutes because this was so enjoyable. But your book really was, I feel like everyone should read it, especially men, just because I feel like they may not have,

you know, they won't have the same experiences. So they may not know a lot of this stuff. And what a great way to broaden your horizons and become a better feminist and ally. And so I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing all the things that I wanted to talk to you about after finishing this book that I absolutely loved. But before I let you go, where can people find more information about you and grab a copy of your book, Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and What We Can Do About It. Yep. My name is Annabelle Williams and the book is for sale on Amazon and good retailers all over the world. My Twitter is at TalkToAnnabelle and I'm on Instagram at MsAnnabelleWilliams. So yes, look me up. Thank you so much, Jessica, for your time.

It was really great to chat to you. Oh, it was a pleasure having you on the show. And that was episode 282 with Annabelle Williams. Her book is out now available in Canada, the US, UK, wherever you are. And it is called Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and What We Can Do About It. I, of course, am giving away a copy of her book. Yay. So if you're interested in reading, well, you can enter to win a copy of the book. I'll share a little bit more details in a moment. I've got some things to share with you guys. First, actually, I should remind you, not only

pick up a copy of her book, you can follow her on Twitter. Like that's how I found her. You can find her at talk to Annabelle. That's A-N-N-A-B-E-L-L-E. You can also find her on Instagram at Ms. Annabelle Williams. So I guess it's like Ms. Annabelle Williams. I will of course link to her so you can easily find her in the show notes for this episode. Go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 282. And of course you can find all the episode show notes for any episode, go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 282. And of course, you can find all the episode show notes for any episode I've ever done at jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast, or jessicamorehouse.com slash whatever the number of that episode you're listening to is. So lots of things to share. So stick around just a few things I need to share about this podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by VIPKid. Looking to level up your financial situation by adding on a side hustle?

I'm obviously a huge fan of side hustles since not only did my own side hustle help me save and invest for my future at a faster rate than my salary could have allowed, it ultimately led me to a whole new career, this podcast. So if you're looking for a way to earn some extra money while shaping adorable young minds at the same time, you may want to check out becoming a virtual English teacher with VIPKID. You can earn between $14 to $22 US per hour plus incentives, work whenever and wherever you want, get access to hundreds of workshops and classes to help you grow in your career. And the best part is you don't have to spend hours crafting your own teaching curriculum. As a teacher, you would get access to VIPKid's world

class curriculum and all classes are one-on-one. So students stay super engaged and there is no class prep required. All you need to be eligible is a bachelor's degree, at least two years experience teaching or working with children, and eligibility to work in the United States or Canada. To learn more about VIPKid, which was named one of Glassdoor's top 10 best places to work in the United States or Canada. To learn more about VIP Kid, which was named one of Glassdoor's top 10 best places to work in 2019 and 2020, and the number one company for remote jobs, visit jessicamorehouse.com slash VIP Kid. Once again, that's jessicamorehouse.com slash VIP Kid, or check out the show notes for this episode. Okay, so like I mentioned, I'm giving away a ton of books, including Annabelle's book, Why Women Are Poorer Than Men. You can find it at jessicamorehouse.com slash contest. I will also

link to it in the show notes for this episode, jessicamorehouse.com slash 282. But besides her book, I'm giving away a ton of books. I think I'm actually up to 10 books I'm giving away, and I will start drawing winners very soon as we get close to the end of this podcast season. So like I mentioned in last week's episode, I'm giving away a copy of Bolisha Kunby's book, Clever Girl Finance, The Side Hustle Guide, which is out in June. Let's see, what else am I giving away? The Seven Deadly Economic Sins by James Otison. Think Like a Breadwinner by Jennifer Barrett. Babies, How to Afford Your Bundle of Joy by Lisa Van Deguyen with Vivian Leung, who was on the show. I'm giving away Kelly Keene's new edition of her book, Talk Money to Me.

It's the COVID edition. I'm giving away The Money Plot by Frederick Kaufman. Broke Millennial Talks Money by Erin Lowry. Back to Business by, oh gosh, now I'm going to have to actually get my glasses on. Back to Business by Nancy Jensen and Sarah Duenwald. And one of my favorite new retirement books, Retirement Income for Life by Frederick Vettisi. This one's great if you're Canadian and want to really dive deep into the world of retirement income planning and who doesn't want to do that? So many great books that you could check out, jessicamorehouse.com slash contest. I also get asked a lot. Hey, do you have any book recommendations? And you bet I do. I have a special section of my website just on recommendations. So I have a bunch of books by American authors and Canadian authors. You can find it at jessicamorehouse.com slash recommendation. So make sure to check it out. I also have lots of recommendations because

I also get asked this a lot. Do you have any recommendations for fee only financial planners or investment coaches or accountants or insurance agents? You bet I do. So they're all there. I also have a bunch of financial products and services linked there as well. If you're looking for like accounting software, or what are the different robo advisors or tax software or whatever, I have them all listed on my recommendations page. So make sure to check it out. Another thing that you should, of course, check it on my website is my shop page. If you're looking for a budget spreadsheet, I've got some free ones, I got some in ones that are not free, but they're like 20 bucks. So it's like, come on, it's like 20 bucks. And it comes with a full video tutorial library to walk you through exactly how to use it. I guess

really what it ended up being is kind of a mini course for this budget spreadsheet, but there you go. Also, of course, I have my wealth building blueprint for Canadians online course, which you can apply to now if you want to learn how to start investing specifically in a passive way. I show you everything you need to know about investment products, investment accounts in Canada, capital markets, how to build your own investment plan, how to go about robo advisor investing or self directed investing, how to put it all together so you can start building your wealth as a Canadian. So make sure to check that out. It is on my shop page, JessicaMurhouse.com slash shop. Speaking of, if you're interested in learning more about investing, well, you did just miss my webinar, but that's okay. So I hosted

a webinar last night, May 25th at 7pm Eastern time on investing basically. But I realized, well, just because some people weren't able to make it, you know, I want to be able to, you know, make it live on so you can watch the replay. And so you can if you go to Jessica Morehouse.com slash WBB webinar, that's Jessica Morehouse.com slash WBB webinar. You can find the replay, watch it, see what's going on. Yeah, so there you go. You can watch the replay right there if you're interested. Okay, so I feel like those are kind of like the major things at the moment. But of course, I've always got things in the works, don't I? Don't I? And so one way you can keep in touch with me, because sometimes I don't have time to mention on the show, or maybe you miss it because you didn't listen to the end. That's okay.

Sign up to my email newsletter. I only send it out bi weekly Jessica Morehouse.com slash subscribe is where you can check that out. Also, you can get access to my free resource library. There's a bunch of free downloads and stuff like that on my website, Jessica Morehouse.com slash resources, and then you'll automatically get signed up to my email list. So that is it for me. Thank you so much for listening. A big thank you to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout. Hopefully it is sunny, so get out there, enjoy the sunshine, have a good rest of your week. I will be back here, as always, next Wednesday with a fresh new episode of the More Money Podcast.

This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.