More Money Podcast - 288 How to Marry and Divorce Well - Leanne Townsend, Family Law Attorney and Podcast Host

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

Today’s episode has been so highly requested that I’m so excited to finally share it with you today. My guest joining me today is Leanne Townsend, a family law attorney based in Toronto and today she’s tackling the long list of questions sent in by you, the listeners on all things divorce! Leanne Townsend is the Counsel & Chair of the Family Law Group at Mills and Mills LLP where her practice is focused on family law, domestic violence and victim advocacy. She’s a regular guest expert in the media on topics including abusive relationships, divorcing a narcissist, and co-parenting. She’s also the host of the Divorcing Well podcast and the Youtube show, The Dish on Divorce.  Leanne answered everything from common mistakes that people make before they get married, to the difference between marriage contracts and cohabitation agreements to how much getting a divorce actually costs. Leanne also shares the wide range of topics and guests you can expect while tuning into her podcast, Divorcing Well. This episode is full of great expert tips and practical advice to keep in mind whether you plan on getting married in the near or distant future, so I hope you enjoy it! For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/288 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is episode 288, and I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show. So excited to finally share this episode because this was a listener request. You know that if you DM me on Instagram or tweet me or send me an email at jessicamorehouse.com, that is my email, jessicamorehouse.com. That is my email, Jessica at JessicaMorehouse.com. Not only will I respond, but I will take your suggestions into consideration for the podcast. Obviously, I actually get quite a lot of requests, so I do my best in getting the right guests and then having those episodes. But this one I was able to do, and it was such a great episode to do. This episode is about divorce. I know. What do we need to know about money and marriage and divorce? I don't know because I'm not a lawyer, but I do have a lawyer on this episode of the show who also has a podcast. So you can even

learn more about the specific topic on her podcast. So I have the wonderful Leanne Townsend on the show. She is a family law attorney here in Toronto. She's a counsel and chair of the family law group at Mills and Mills LLP, where her practice is focused on family law, domestic violence, and victim advocacy. And she's regularly interviewed in the media and has been featured on CBC, CB24, CTV News, and a ton of radio stations, as well as Lawyer's Daily and Divorce Magazine. And not only that, not only is she a lawyer and obviously super busy with her practice, but she also hosts the Divorcing Well podcast and the YouTube show The Dish on Divorce. So I knew I needed to have her on the show because not only would she obviously make an amazing

guest, I love having other people who have podcasts on the show, but also she really knows what she's talking about. And believe me, I actually put on Instagram before I did this interview, put it out there, hey, what are your questions about money and relationships and divorce? Send me your questions. And I compiled all of them and asked Leanne pretty much all of them. I mean, I did have a lot of questions and specific questions too, and she did deliver. She sure as heck did. So I'm so excited to have her on the show. Now, before I get to that interview with Leanne, I just want to share a few words about this podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by BMO ETFs. If you're a long-time

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invests in large and mid-cap stocks across Canada while excluding companies heavily involved in tobacco, alcohol, gambling, and weapons. Or maybe you're looking for a one-fund solution with an asset allocation ETF. The BMO Growth ETF, ticker ZGRO, is a portfolio of 80% equities and 20% fixed income that gives you exposure to the Canadian, US, and international markets. And the best part? It rebalances itself so you don't have to. To learn more about BMO's diverse menu of ETFs and to take a look at their free resources on ETF investing, visit bmoetfs.com. Once again, that's bmoetfs.com. Thank you so much, Leanne, for taking the time to be on the More Money Podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show and to dive into this topic. So thanks for taking the time to be here. Oh, I'm happy to be here. So thank you for inviting me. You're so welcome. So I'm so glad I

actually stumbled upon you. I was doing some research because I wanted to do an episode on this topic about divorce and money. And, you know, I found you and like, oh, a fellow podcaster. Well, this is I think this is the perfect fit. You have a podcast called divorcing well, but also, you know, obviously, you've you've been doing this for, for quite a while. Do you want to share a little bit about your background and what do you specifically focus on in your practice? Yes. Um, so I am a family law lawyer. I am a chair of the family law group at a firm in Toronto called Mills and Mills LLP. I just joined that firm. I was at a boutique Bay Street firm prior to that. And I spent the first 16 plus years of my career as an assistant crown attorney prosecuting criminal offenses. And I was the co-lead of the domestic violence team in the Toronto West office. So I, early on in my career, I always had an interest in domestic abuse and helping victims of abuse. And I carried that over into my family law practice. I do,

I mean, I take on all kinds of family law cases, but I have a specialization helping victims of abuse, whether it's, you know, physical abuse, emotional abuse, mental abuse, and financial abuse, which is, you know, another common area of abuse. Oh, wow. Well, we can definitely dive into that. I did an episode a few years ago about the topic on financial abuse. And this is another thing that is it actually probably happens quite, you know, a lot more than we expect, but it's something that no one talks about. So that's, that's very fascinating. But like I mentioned, before I hit the record button, I put up on my Instagram, you know, does anyone have any questions, I'm going to be

interviewing a lawyer, and we're going to get into it. And I got flooded with questions. So I think the topic of, you know, divorce, and or just even just, you know, what are some things to potentially protect yourself if you're thinking about getting married or if you're already married? There's so many questions. And that's because there's I think people just don't talk about it. I guess divorce is kind of like a bad word or it's one of those things where so we don't talk about but it should be because it's very important and there's still a high divorce rate. So it's something that we all need to be more informed about. I'm curious, I kind of want to start off maybe with a little softball question, but what are some kind of, I guess, common

mistakes you see, you know, couples that are entering marriage? I know you are kind of on the other side of it, you know, helping people divorce, but what are some kind of, I got a question, what are some common mistakes people make that are very preventable? I think one of the common mistakes is people don't talk about money. You know, it's interesting. It's kind of a taboo subject, you know, even still people, you know, when they're engaged or, you know, they're looking at getting married or moving in together, they, you know, they'll talk about sex and they'll talk about, you know, children and things like that. But

money's often something that people are uncomfortable talking about. And so, and arguments over money are one of the leading causes of divorce. So it is something that's important to talk about. And it's also important to understand your partner's money style, because that that's also an area where there often are problems when one is a spender and one is a saver. And, you know, these are things that you can know, you know, beforehand. And, you know, it's important, I think, early on to to have an understanding of both yours and your spouse's financial situation, don't have one person just handling the money um and i always say it's you know it's funny you have to get independent legal advice to

get a divorce but i actually think you should have to get independent legal advice to get married um i think it could save a lot of um you know problems down the road um you know to fight just to find out that information about well if this marriage doesn't work out, you know, just to find out that information about, well, if this marriage doesn't work out, what, you know, what are my rights? What are my obligations? And, you know, then if you think you might need a prenuptial agreement, our marriage contract, as we tend to call it here in Canada, then you'll get one. Yeah, I got a ton of questions about prenups. And yeah, I feel like people are starting to talk about them a little bit more. But one and this might be a misconception or a myth. I always thought,

you know, and I've been married for over eight years now, that you don't need a prenup if you are entering the marriage without like that much money, like prenups are for for wealthy people that want to protect their assets before entering marriage. But I don't know if that's maybe is that wrong or, you know, what should people understand about prenups or what? Sorry, are they called what are they called in Canada? I don't even know. There's a different name. Yeah, we call them cohabitation agreements. If you're living together or a marriage contract, if you're going to be married, prenups are more of a term used in the United States.

So it could also be like a domestic contract and contemplation of marriage. But marriage contract and cohabitation agreement are the two, you know, main terms that we use up here. And they are something coming up more and more. And to address your point about, you know, the financial, you know, picture for the different partners. I mean, yes, it's still something that if you have significant, you know, investments, and you have a fairly high net worth, it's still something that's going to be more favorable for you to have than if you are going into a marriage with nothing. But what it does,

essentially, is it, you know, it's like, it's almost like a business partnership, right? And so it sets out, you know, just like in a partnership agreement, you have terms that if the partnership is to dissolve, how is that going to happen? What, how do people get out of it? How is it going to be done? You know, a marriage contract would be the same thing where, you know, yes, the idea is that the marriage is going to work out, but if it doesn't, here's what's going to happen. And, you know, it's ideal to do it at a time when both people are, you know, in love and they're amicable and they're being reasonable and agreeable, you know, versus down the road when things don't go

well. And, you know, then there's, you know, emotion getting more into the picture and affecting people's ability to be reasonable. So even if you don't have a lot, it can still be an advantage to have a document that specifies so that, you know, how things will look if the marriage doesn't work out and everybody knows that going in. Do you find that they're becoming more popular in Canada compared to maybe like 10 or 20 years ago when I feel like no one was really talking about it? Yeah, they definitely are. I find I'm getting retained to do them more often. They're particularly popular with, you know, second marriages, or, you know, marriages where one party, you know, has already children from

another relationship. So they may want to protect their children, you know, in some fashion. But even on new relationships, I am seeing more like first marriages, I am seeing more of them today than I did years ago. Now, you mentioned cohabitation agreements. I remember that's something I actually looked up when me and my husband first moved in together before we were married, and we never actually did anything about it. But I looked into it. I actually looked up when me and my husband first moved in together before we were married. We never actually did anything about it, but I looked into it. But can you kind of share? Because I've gotten a lot of questions, too, about common law versus being married.

I think also there's a lot of confusion. I mean, I don't quite know what the difference is. Sometimes it looks like they're very similar in terms of like your rights. So can you kind of explain what would first be the difference between a cohabitation agreement compared to a marriage contract? Okay, so a cohabitation agreement is for people who are not married, but who are living together in an intimate relationship. A marriage contract is for couples who are actually legally married. And here in Canada, there are differences in terms of the legal rights that you have based on which of those relationships that you're in.

So generally speaking, only do you have property rights if you are married. So if you live common law and your partner has investment accounts and rental properties and things like that, unless you can make a claim that you've contributed to these in some fashion, it can be those properties belong to the partner who owns title. Whereas if you're married, there's something called an equalization payment and net family property. And there's rights that accrue that, you know, you could potentially be entitled to half, maybe not half, but some amount of your partner's assets that are in his or her name. So the property rights thing is a big difference. As far as the US, I think

common law, they do have property rights. And so, you know, up here, we watch movies and TV. And I think that's why there's a lot of confusion as people see, you know, the state of California, you know, common law, a certain way. And so that creates confusion. But that's one big difference. Spousal support and child support, people are entitled to that regardless of whether they're married or common law. At common law, you have to have lived together for three years or have children with the person in order to be entitled to spousal support. And so those rights aren't really different between the two, but the big difference is property and the matrimonial home is a big one as well. Because if you are married, the matrimonial home has a special

status in that both parties have a right to possession. So even if title is in one person's name only, the other party has a right to possession. So they can't just be kicked out, you know, onto the street, if things don't go well, whereas in common law, that could happen. Wow, interesting. So it seems like you have, as a married person, a bit more rights in terms of, I guess, property than if you were common law, which I guess it could be good and bad. I mean, if you're if you want to make sure I want things to be split 5050, if we break up in your common law, but you didn't maybe contribute, then you might be kind of out of luck. But if you're married, you may have more rights to, you know, like the property, I guess that maybe you did a chair or something like that.

Yeah. You know, where it comes in a lot is if you have a stay at home mom, for example, and situations where they live common law and mom gave up her career and stayed home and everything is in dad's name. And she has no property in her name. And so then she's in a situation where she's having to prove that she contributed to the home by taking care of the children and running the household and things like that. And I mean, there's certainly case law that would support that in that situation, she should be entitled to something. But if they've been married, she wouldn't have to prove anything. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. I also got lots of questions about, I guess, like when you are common law, when you separate, how different is it? Because I guess it wouldn't be called a divorce. Exactly. But you are still

in a, you know, a kind of a relationship that has certain rights. What is the, I guess, difference between separating when you're common law versus, I guess, getting a divorce? I think lots of people are just wondering, you know, is it, do I have to hire a lawyer? Is it more difficult? Is it just going to be just as contentious? Or is it easier? What would your thoughts be on that? Well, I'm going to give such a lawyer answer to this. It depends. You know, because it really depends on how each whether your common law or whether you're married, your situation can be simple, or it can be complicated. And so if your common law, you don't need to get a divorce,

but you still need to have a separation agreement. You're still going to need to exchange financial disclosure, have a parenting plan if you have children, those sorts of things. So the only step that's different if you are actually married is if you want to get a divorce, in addition to all the other stuff, you'll also have to do a divorce application. And usually they're uncontested. So it's a fairly straightforward process. The meat of everything is the separation agreement, the financial disclosure, and the parenting plan. And you have to do those regardless of your situation. And a lot of people, I think lawyers do a horrible PR job. Everyone hates, everyone hates us, everyone wants to use us, you know, and all I can

say, you know, and I am biased, because I obviously am a lawyer. But I think knowledge is power. And sometimes people try to do things themselves. And they end up hurting themselves significantly, because they didn't, you know, you can only Google so many things, you know, just Google doesn't replace an orthopedic surgeon. You know, Google doesn't replace a family law lawyer, particularly if things are, you know, a little more complicated. And, you know, even if you want to just consult a lawyer, you know, nowadays there's all these options, you know, like limited scope retainers and, you know, the firm I'm at Mills and Mills, they have a division called Legal Shield where people can use that and, you know, consult with a lawyer as needed. So there's ways of saving money. But at the end of the day,

it is really important. You're dealing with the most important things in your life, your children, your finances, your home. It's important to get proper advice. I would agree. I would not want to try to DIY a divorce. That's, you know, it's, it seems way too complicated. That's for sure. You know, going back to talking about the cohabitation agreements and the marital contract, a lot of people wondering what should you, I mean, obviously you would work with a lawyer to draft that, but what are some things that you should include? I think I'm not even sure where I'd start. I mean, obviously I'm married now, so it's too late for me, but you know, what are some things that if that's something that you

both want to do this, you know, these are some things that you should probably have in there. Well, first off what a lot of people do is, you know, they might have something in there where what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours. So, you know, title ends up ruling how assets are to be divided. So and if it's if you're both on title, if both parties are on title, then it's divided 5050. So that might be something that gets spelled out in a marriage contract. It might also spell out that, you know, what Charlie brought into the marriage and what Jill brought into the marriage are, you know, for them to keep and if they're not forming part of their net family property or any marital assets. Sometimes there's spousal support waivers that are, you know, in a marriage contract

or there's situations where, you know, if there's a big disparity in the incomes of the parties, there might be something specifying that if you're married this long, you know, this is the amount of spousal support. If it goes to this point, you know, this much, or it could just be, you know, a waiver altogether. There can be things, sometimes parents loan money or buy a house for their child. So there can be things, you know, excluding that or how that's going to be treated because one of the partner's parents were the ones who actually bought it or loaned the money for the mortgage or however that might work. The one thing you cannot do is contract out of anything to do with the children. You can't put in things to do with custody and access or joint or decision making and parenting time, as we call them now, or anything to do with child support.

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I'm not sure if this exists in Canada, but you know, here, a lot of this in the US, a post-nup, a post-nuptial agreement, do those exist here? Yeah, I mean, that would essentially be a marriage contract. Oh, okay. So you do that when, but when you're already married, is that how it works? Yeah. So you're already married and you can do that at any time, you know, that, and that's the thing, you get these people who are on the eve of getting married and they're in this high stress situation to sign a marriage contract. And sometimes it's better to either do like, sometimes what happens is they'll do like an interim

without prejudice agreement just to extend the time to do the proper agreement. So it's not done under you know the kind of the duress of the impending nuptials or you could just you know do a post nuptial or you know marriage contract and you know the reality is that yes like certain rights do accrue as soon as somebody's married but there's also provisions in the family law legislation for you know for something not to be completely unfair. If you were married, you know, if you owned a home and you were married two weeks, I don't think this after two weeks is going to be entitled to half the value of the home. But, you know, so there's a sense of fairness that way.

But it's definitely better to get it sorted out before you get married and to plan it, you know, significantly in advance of your wedding date. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I guess it's also kind of awkward to bring it up. If you've already been married, be like, hey, will you sign this contract? It's not, you know, if you haven't discussed it, it may be a little awkward. Yeah, it may not go over very well. Yeah, it may not go over well. That is for sure. Um, I I'm, I'm also curious and I'm not sure if you'll be able to answer this, but I've always been curious about this probably because it's been in ton of movies. So you've probably seen it too. Um,

annulments, you know, you see, you find out something wrong about your partner, you know, a day after you get married and you get annulled, How different is that from a divorce? Is it kind of like an like, from what I understand, you know, it's something to be like, no, this marriage never happened. So it's different than a divorce. But is it actually in terms of, you know, the separation of, you know, assets or anything? You know, that's a good question. And I can honestly say I've never done an annulment. Maybe they're not common. Maybe they're just a movie thing. I think they possibly happen.

Often there's, I think, a religious basis for somebody wanting that situations. I have not done one. But I would, you know, I would assume that, again, it would depend on the length of the marriage, but there's going to have to be some family law, consideration of the family law legislation, you know, in terms of how things need to be divided, you know, even if there's an annulment rather than a divorce, because you're still separating.

And the legislation would still be applicable. It's just that maybe instead of having terms about how a divorce is going to happen, there's steps in there outlining how the annulment, you know, who's going to be responsible for the paperwork or, you know, any other person's going to cooperate and all of that. Another question that I get often, and I feel like maybe we've kind of answered this, but maybe not. So when we're, you know, saying, you know, say we're married and we're getting a divorce, I think lots of people are confused as to what is my partner's

and what is mine. So, you know, I think there's this misconception that if we co-mingle all of our money, then, you know, it's all co-mingled. So we're probably going to have to split it 50-50 or something like that. But if I have some money in some personal bank accounts and personal investment accounts, that remains mine because it's only under my name. Is that how that works or not at all? It is how it works, but it's kind of a little more complicated in that when you go through any separation, whether it's common law or divorce, well, more divorce because you've got the property rights, you fill out what's called a Form 13.1 financial statement. And on that statement, you list all of your assets and liabilities,

and it's got income and expenses. And so when you list your assets, you're going to put everything that's in your name. So if you have a bank account that's in your name or an RRSP that's in your name, you're going to put everything that's in your name. So if you have a bank account that's in your name or an RRSP that's in your name, you're going to list that. Any joint assets. So if you had a matrimonial home that was worth a million dollars, you would put $500,000 on your side and your spouse would put $500,000. And so then you add up all those numbers and liabilities are treated the same way, joint versus in your own name. So both parties arrive at a number that's called their net family property. And usually they're not exactly the same because there are things like pensions and

RRSPs and bank accounts. And so even though a lot of stuff is commingled and there's going to be some, you know, there's a joint bank account and there's a matrimonial home that's jointly held. And, you know, some of those types of things, these little individual things are what make the numbers, you know, sometimes not exactly the same so that one party does end up owing the other party what's called an equalization payment to make them equal. Interesting. Okay. So you're not necessarily protecting yourself by like hiding some money in a bank account your partner doesn't know because if you divorce you're going to have to reveal that information anyway well certainly legally you have to reveal it

that's true legally but you know not to say that i think there know, there's people out there that do hide money. And, you know, there's a trail somewhere, though, it's very hard to successfully hide it. Because it's, you know, whether it's coming through your paycheck, or something that, you know, you were paid out, there's usually a trail of it somewhere. Yeah, exactly. Don't try to hide the CRA or someone will find it. So there's always going to be some sort of paper trail. You mentioned some things that, you know, also come up a lot alimony and or spousal support and child support. How does that typically work? I mean, I you know, spousal support, especially when would that come up? I know, you know, when you think about divorce, sometimes that's it's, you know, I don't know anyone who's gotten divorced and does this spousal support. But again, I'm only in my 30s. So we'll see. But when does that typically come up? Is it typically when one of the, you know, partners was maybe the stay at home parent? Yeah, that's certainly a situation where it

would come up is if, you know, one party was a stay at home parent, it would come up is if, you know, one party was a stay-at-home parent, it would come up where there's a, you know, a significant difference between what the parties earn. So even though the other party works, say she or he earned $40,000 a year and the other partner earned $400,000 a year and they were married, you know, for 10 or more years, there might be some spousal support there. Typically, it's based on need and means. So there has to be a need and there has to be a means. And then we have something called the spousal support advisory guidelines where lawyers plug the numbers in and it spits out an amount that should be paid in spousal support. The rule of thumb is that spousal support is usually paid for half the length of the relationship to the entire length of the relationship,

depending on, you know, specific factors of that specific relationship. There's also something called compensatory support, which is a different type of support. And that type of support might be where, you know, the wife gave up her career to stay home and raise children. And, you know, 20 years later, they're getting a divorce. And now she doesn't have the same career options isn't as employable. So she should receive some amount of money and support as compensation for the fact that she gave up her career. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And spousal support is different than child support in that the payor of spousal support can get a tax deduction for it.

And the payee has to declare it as income, whereas child support, that doesn't happen with. Right. And so for child support, how does that, I guess that's also kind of wrapped up into whatever the custody agreement is, but is it always, like, does it always exist? Or if you do like a 50-50 custody split, is child support is based on the federal child support guidelines, and it's considered to be the right of the child. So it's not for something for parents to contract away, there's two children, and it'll show an amount, you know, that actually $150,000 might have been a better example, because once a person earns over $150,000, there's a different, slightly different calculation that's in the guidelines. Now, if you have a situation where, so part of child support is also based on how much time the children spend with each parent. So if one parent has the children, you know, 61% of the time or more, then they would be entitled to full child support.

Their income wouldn't matter. It would be based on the payor's income. But if it's 60-40 or, you know, 50-50 or 55-45, something like that, then if both parents have an income, there's something that's done that's called a set-off. And how that works is you go on the child support guidelines for both parents. So you take dad's income, you know, again, say his income is 150,000. And you look at for two children, what he should be paying, let's say mom's income. And I hate to be stereotyping here, because especially these days, it could be switched around, it could be mom's income, but for the sake of argument, say mom's income was 50,000. And you look what someone with 50,000 with two children would be paying.

And then whatever the difference is, the person with the higher income. So in my example, dad would be paying that difference to mom as an offset. Okay. That makes, that makes a lot of sense. I think this, I don't know if you can answer this. It just can be some general guidelines, but I got a lot of questions. How much does this cost? So hiring a lawyer or hiring a lawyer to do a custody agreement, I am sure it's a scale.

It kind of depends on your particular needs or how long the process is. But like, what are some costs that people can kind of expect if they, you know, want to file for divorce or go through something like this? Well, you know, it does, it really does depend. And it's going to depend on how complicated the matter is, and how much conflict there is. I tell people, you know, an initial consultation who come to me, and it's a fairly amicable, straightforward situation, and they really just need a financial disclosure and a separation agreement and parenting plan. And I will tell them that that will run anywhere from about $2,500 to $5,000, depending on how complicated and how much negotiation there is back and forth.

Of course, if couples are high conflict and they can't agree on anything and, you know, they end up going to court, it could be hundreds of 1000s of dollars. You know, it really, it really, really depends. And sometimes things aren't as straightforward as people say, I recall once I had a client come to me, and she said that it was going to be an uncontested divorce, which generally I quote people about $2,000 all fees in for that. And it ended up that her ex-spouse, you know, had some mental health issues and addiction issues. And he didn't fully understand what was going on. And he was fighting the divorce and he was like harassing me.

And it ended up, and he was evading service. And so it ended up being a lot more costly than I'd initially quoted her just because I, you know, she didn't mention that piece of the information, you know, to me when we had the initial consultation. So, you know, sometimes there can be some unexpected things that that make it more complicated. You know, the other thing is, it depends on the parties, like I have parties who are very or clients who are very organized, very efficient, and I don't need to do as much. But, you know, I also have clients who are more disorganized and I have to ask them five times for something. And they're calling me every day, you know, complaining about their spouse being on a dating site and, you know, things like that, knowing that I build by my time and, you know, that runs up the bill. So there are lots of things people can, you know, use your lawyer as a lawyer, not as a coach or a therapist, you know, that can help keep your fees down and, you know, try to be reasonable with your partner and keep your emotions out of it.

And that will also help keep your fees down. Is there I remember this was years ago, I knew someone who worked as a mediator. Do you know what like, I don't really know, I didn't really know what a role was. But I knew she did help couples, I think in this process, she wasn't a lawyer, but she kind of helped them. Is that kind of like maybe the middle, the middleman to deal with with all the kind of maybe paperwork or, you know, kind of so they don't have to go to you and then get their, you know, bill going up, up and up? Is that something that might make the process easier? Or I'm not sure if I have that right at all. But sometimes mediation can be cheaper. I find a lot of mediators market themselves as being a cheaper alternative to lawyers,

but it's not always necessarily true. And when you see a mediator, you still need to get a lawyer at the end of it all to get independent legal advice. And your lawyer might advise you of a bunch of things you didn't realize in the mediation, and then everything has to be changed. So, and there's different types of mediation. There's mediation where lawyers are a part of the mediation. So the clients are there with their lawyers and the mediator who is an independent third

party. And then there's mediation where the clients just go themselves and maybe they've retained a lawyer at the beginning, but they, so they consult with their lawyer as needed as they're going through the mediation. And then there's some where the people just go on their own and then get legal advice at the end. And all of those models are appropriate for different situations. But the only caution I always say to people is that a mediator will not advocate for you. A mediator is an independent person and their job is to stay independent. So if you're not good at negotiating with your spouse,

or there's a power imbalance and things like that, you just have to be mindful of that if you're not good at negotiating with your spouse, or there's a power imbalance and things like that, you just have to be mindful of that if you choose to go into it without having a lawyer assisting you. Well, since you've been doing this for so long, what are some other, I mean, I guess, tips or bits of advice that you could give for people thinking of getting married? How can they properly protect ourselves? I think, obviously, one could be taking a look at that marriage contract, or if they're common law, and they don't, you know, want to get married, but they, you know, are going to be together for a while, a cohabitation agreement, anything else, you know, that you've seen that you're like,

this would be something good for people to know so they can kind of protect themselves in case they do separate. I think it's important to be in touch with the family finances. So even if one party is primarily responsible for paying the bills, I think it's important that both parties know what the bills are, where the inflows and outflows of cash and money into the home. I think that that should never be something that you have paid no attention to and have no understanding of because I think that does put you in a more vulnerable position. So that would be, you know, the number one thing. Again, I'm also, and I hate to say this because I think being a stay-at-home mom is one of the most honorable things someone can do but it does put you potentially in a vulnerable position if you stay home you know and for 20

years it's one thing to stay home for five years maybe but I think that in that type of situation it's even more important that you understand the family finances and you may even want to have something in a marriage contract that specifies that if you give up your career for X number of years, that that will be reflected in, you know, some sort of settlement that you that, you know, it's in terms of spousal support or compensation that you get for doing that. And I think that could be a way of protecting yourself as well. Absolutely, absolutely. I know this is kind of funny timing, but I'm rewatching the series Mad Men with my husband and it is making it's it's an

interesting look at the past, especially in a 2021 lens. But also it really does make you think, especially as a woman, wow, we really didn't have it easy back then. And luckily, you know, we're in a better spot now. I mean, obviously, it's still more to go. But yeah, like you kind of mentioned, you know, lots of the characters, you know, were in vulnerable positions, because they were stay at home parents. And then if they wanted to get a divorce, they had kind of no right. So I guess this is sort of my last question. And I again, I'm not sure if you'll be able to answer it, but, or maybe it, maybe it's actually pretty simple in terms of, you know, women, men, how much have we progressed in terms of, I guess, rights? Is it equal rights? I know back in the fifties,

it wasn't, you know, as a woman, you didn't have as many rights if you want to divorce your partner. Is it pretty much like we're on equal footing, no matter what your gender is, if you want to divorce your partner? So, I mean, I think it really, my straight answer to the question is that I think it is equal. It's certainly equal in theory, but sometimes in its application, it doesn't always work out that way. I see plenty of situations, whether it's the female or the male or the payor or the payee, where they are in a situation where they're being unfairly treated by the law. I've seen lots of women who have become almost destitute in situations where they lived a nice lifestyle, you know, because they are dependent on being paid money by their ex-husband. I also see women who are bitter that they're having to pay their ex-husband.

You know, we are seeing women earn more money nowadays, and that is starting to come up. And I also see, you know, payors who are paying out a lot of money to a spouse that, you know, I've seen, you know, spouses being paid $20,000, $30,000 a month in spousal support. And that's just, to me, insane. But that does go on too. So I think in theory, it's fair. I can't think of another model right now that would be more fair, but it's, you know, the application doesn't always work out fairly. So still some progress necessary as we continue into the future. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. So you have your own podcast called Divorcing Well. Do you want to kind of

share a little bit more about what that's about? I'm sure people that are already interested in this topic would love to listen to your show to kind of dive more deep into it. Yes, it can be found on all the platforms where podcasts are found like I, you know, Apple, iTunes, Spotify, etc. And the reason I call it divorcing well is because it takes a holistic approach to divorce. So I interview guests who talk about, you know, things, legal issues, but financial issues, nutrition through divorce, the importance of mindfulness, you know, mental health, like all these sorts of topics. I approach it, you know, from that perspective and have guests on who can speak to all of those types of areas. And I also have guests on who just who share their

story so that someone else might be inspired or learn something by hearing, you know, from someone who was also in that situation not that long ago themselves and how they experienced it and were able to come out, you know, in an okay situation. That's great. That's great. Because yeah, I'm sure, you know, divorce is still unfortunately, one of those things that is still kind of considered taboo. There's still lots of emotion and shame wrapped into it, which I don't think it should be because again, we're, you know, what year is it and we're still kind of having these whispered conversations about this. So I think it's really important that people talk about this and learn more about it and also realize that if they're going through this, they're not alone. A lot of people are going through it. I'm not sure if you know what the stat is on like, average divorce rates now,

but is it still kind of like 50%? They stopped keeping track of it for some reason that I don't understand. Canada stopped keeping track of it. But, you know, I hear that it's roughly 50%. I think there's less marriages than there used to be. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. But I think it's still kind of around, you know, the 50% mark. And then if you have a second, if you marry for a second time, the statistic is higher in terms of there being a chance for divorce. So that just goes to show you're not if you're going through this, you're not alone. 50%

of the population has probably experienced this. So I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show. If someone wants to, you know, connect with you ask you questions, possibly hire you, where can they find you? Well, I have a website, that's my main website. It's www.leantownsend.ca and all of my contact information is there. But they can also find me at my firm website, which is www.millsandmills.ca. So either of those places, they'll be able to find all my contact information. Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my long list of questions. And believe me, it is even a longer list than this. But I had to cut a bunch of these questions because I'm like, you know what, we'll be here for five hours. So thanks so much for being on the show and

answering everything. It was a pleasure having you on. Well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be on the show. And that was episode 288 with Leanne Townsend. Make sure to check her out at leannetownsend.ca. You can follow her on Twitter at Leanne underscore Townsend. And you can also follow her on the gram at Leanne Townsend Life. I will, of course, link to everything so you can easily find not only her website and her social media, but also her YouTube channel. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to her podcast, The Divorcing Well Podcast. I'm going to link to all those in the show notes for this episode. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 288 for all that good stuff. As we are kind of wrapping up season 12 of this show, um, I've got a lot to say. So

there's only a few more episodes left and this is actually kind of the longest I feel of this season that kind of winter spring season we're entering. We're in summer now, right? This is summer now. I think this is summer. Um, anyways, so I have lots to share with you. So do not go away. Just want to share a few words about this podcast episode's sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by BMO ETFs. With so much innovation happening in the world, why not add some more innovation to your investment portfolio? BMO ETFs recently launched their line of innovation ETFs to provide a more accessible and cost-effective way to invest in megatrend companies with the potential for exponential growth in the years to come. These ETFs focus on up-and-coming sectors

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free resources on ETF investing, visit bmoetfs.com. Once again, that's BMOETFS.com. Okay, so let's get to the good stuff. Let's get to some important announcements. So like I mentioned, we're wrapping up the season of this show. But before that, really, I've got some really great episodes to share with you. So we only have two more weeks of the show, including this week. But tomorrow, I have a bonus episode for you that you were not going to want to miss, especially if you love my episodes on investing. We're diving deep into the world of ETFs, exchange traded funds with a very, very savvy guy with ETFs. Let's just say he is the director of BMO ETFs. Let me just say that. So we really get into the nitty gritty about ETFs. And because I get so many questions about ETFs and investing in general,

passive investing, I had a lot of questions for him. So you're not going to want to miss that episode. It's a great episode. And then the following week, I've got not one, not two, but three episodes for you. So we're kind of going out with a bang if you want, just because I have two amazing guests. And then I want to do a fun little solo episode because I have not done a solo episode in who knows how long. I mean, let me just check my little schedule. When was the last time I even did one?

I think it's been at least a year. Gosh. Well, a lot has happened and I need to I have a lot to say. So that's why I'm doing a solo episode because I love doing them. And it's you're gonna want to you're gonna want to check it out. So that's very exciting. Okay, other updates. Reminder, since you know, we only have two more weeks of the show. This is your last call to enter my uh big book giveaway i'm actually going to add a few uh do i have any more i think i have one more book to add to the contest which i'm going to add next week um but yeah if you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash contest or check out the show notes for this episode you'll find a link to the contest page I'm giving away, I believe,

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and then 13, total 13 books. That means you have, you know, a good chance of actually winning, you know. So I will, of course, be announcing the winners, not on the podcast, because I'm going to choose the winners after the podcast wraps. I will be emailing the winners directly. So if you win, you will be notified. But also I'm going to choose the winners after the podcast wraps. I will be emailing the winners directly. So if you win, you will be notified. But also I'm going to announce it in my well, maybe social media, maybe I'll do something like that. But more more likely, I am just going to send out an e-blast through my email list. So if you go to Jessica Morehouse dot com slash subscribe, you can get into my email list and you will find out who wins all of the books.

Hopefully it's you. But also when you're on my email list, you find out first of all these very important things that I'm up to. I'm going to be doing some great things during the summer while I'm on podcast hiatus until September. And so I'm going to probably be doing some webinars. I probably have some more info about my course that I was supposed to launch back in January, my kind of revamped new version of my Fix Your Finances Masterclass. I am working on it. It's just my investing course, my Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course, which I absolutely love, has kind of taken over my life, which is great. But yeah, so that's why it's kind

of taken me an extra six months to work on the second course. So here we are. So I will be announcing more information about that course very soon. If you're already a student of my previous course, you obviously get the new course. I'm going to be – well, I've already sent out by the time this recording goes out. I've already emailed you some information about what's going on. So, yeah, anyways, lots of exciting things that are going to happen in the summer because I'm not going anywhere. I mean, fingers crossed is looking

like I could actually get my second vaccine dose fairly soon, which is very exciting, which means I'm going to be on the first flight I can get to Vancouver because I have not seen my family in almost two years. And that is not OK. That's not okay. Anyways, I lost my train of thought that I started just getting really sad about the fact that I haven't seen my family and been like, locked in this cave that is my house for way too long. And I can't wait for real life. I cannot wait for real life. Anyway, so yeah, so that's the contest. That's the email list. Well, so oh, another exciting thing. So you may have heard, well, I'll kind of talk a little bit about this in my solo episode. But anyways, recent, you know,

made some big changes with my business. I'll get into that later in that solo episode. But one thing is my sister works for me now, which is pretty cool. And one of the projects we've been working on is to add some merch to my kind of online store, something I've never thought about doing, but I'm like, why not? It's kind of fun. It's really not about making that much money because you can't honestly, you can't make that much money off it. But it's just like a fun way to create some products, you know, like hats and stuff like that, that are just like cool stuff. It's really it was inspired by the fact that me and her, you know, kind of look at the same websites for clothes and cannot find

anything that is like empowering or positive. Or just, you know, I'm just I can't I can't with another shirt that says girl boss can't do it. I'm not. How about just a boss? How about just a boss? So anyways, we're kind of uh you know having some fun and creating some merch so hopefully by the time this episode airs if you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash shop there will be a few of our first items on there and i'm very very excited about it and hopefully you know we'll be able to release a lot more stuff as uh time goes by and you're interested but uh yeah it's just like a fun project for trying out and just having a good good old time. You know, why not? Why not just you know, try things out and see what happens. Okay, what else? I think that's kind of it for now. Because I feel like I've been talking for

long enough and you have things to do. You're a busy person, you've got a life and you know, you got you got to get going. So thank you so much for listening. Like I mentioned, tomorrow is a bonus episode. So make sure to drop back here tomorrow for that episode. So before I let you go, big shout out to my wonderful podcast editor, Matt Rideout. And for you, you know, make sure to go outside, you know, enjoy that sunshine, put on that sunscreen. We don't want to get burned. We do not want to get a sunburn. It's just the beginning of summer. Breathe in that fresh air and take care of yourself. Take some time for you because you need it and you deserve it. And I'll see you back here

tomorrow. So thanks for listening. Ciao. This podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network