More Money Podcast - 296 How Mental Health Affects Financial Wealth - Zandile Chiwanza, Personal Finance Journalist

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

This week I’m so excited to be joined by someone who I met at one of my live events 5 years ago and since have had the privilege to see them thrive as an important voice in the Canadian personal finance space. Zandile Chiwanza is a personal finance journalist and self-proclaimed “budget warrior”. In this episode, Zandile takes us through how she navigated debt, and how Twitter was the catalyst for her career. Originally from Zimbabwe, Zandile came to Canada as an international student in 2010. Through her own struggles with debt and trying to pay for school and bills, her personal finance journey began. Zandile’s writing as a financial journalist aims to empower people and reassure them that financial wealth is attainable, no matter your circumstance. Her work focuses on the intersection between mental health, financial wellness, and race.  I love Zandile’s writing and I was so excited to have her on the show. Our chat was so motivational for anyone who’s worried about how they’ll ever get out of debt or figure out their finances. Zandile also is an advocate for crushing your debt, while not sacrificing having fun and living your life. For full episode show notes visit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. I am your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 296. Welcome to the show. I'm so excited to share this particular episode too. It's a great conversation, obviously, but I'm interviewing someone who I've actually known for a number of years, and I feel like she has definitely seen my kind of evolution from hobby blogger to now running my own business, my own financial education company. But I've also been able to witness her transformation as well. So I have on the show Zandile Chuanza, and she is a personal finance journalist and a financial wellness educator. And you can find

her at her name, Zandilejuanza.com. I will include it in the show notes, jessicamorehouse.com slash 296. You can also follow her on Twitter and Instagram at Zah Knows. So it's Z-A Knows. Again, I will link all that in the show notes so you can make it. It's very easy to follow her, but she has basically been following me for also a very long time, how we kind of um first met and I honestly feel like this is going back at least four or five years now is my memory at least serves that I was doing a library talk at one of the Toronto Public Libraries and she came up to me after my presentation I think it was probably one of my

um the presentation I used to do a lot of uh on hustles. And she came up to me after and we had a conversation. She said, you know, I'm really interested in, you know, doing more, you know, freelance writing and financial journalism and stuff like that. And so we always kind of kept in touch. And she has just thrived since then. And she's always a big supporter of mine, because she always comes to my live events. And I can't wait to do my live events when we're in a post-COVID world. So we'll see when that happens. So it's such a great timing too, because she just had a really amazing piece in the Toronto Star all about her journey and especially her journey to become debt-free. And so we have a great episode for you today. So stay tuned. I also stay tuned to the end too, because I have a lot of life updates that I want to share with you as well. But before I get to that interview with Zendile, I just want to share

a little bit more about my online course in case you have just found out about this podcast or never heard about my online course. It's called Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians. So it is an investing course that focuses on how to do passive investing, which I talk a lot about on this show. It is specific for Canadians as well, because I feel like there's a lot of content out there for Americans, not as much for us Canadians. And when it comes to investing, yes, it is different. We have different accounts, we have different taxation rules, different platforms, different products. And so I go in depth about all of that in my Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course. If you are interested in learning more, you can go to

the show notes for this episode, of course, but just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash WBB. It'll take you right to the landing page where it'll break down all of the sections in the course. There's about 15 or 16 hours of video content. There's probably more quite honestly, because I keep on adding new lessons, updating lessons. There's always kind of fresh content in there. I do a bi-weekly live Q&A session. So anyone can join and ask me questions. There's a private Facebook group, you get lifetime access. There's so much good stuff. But really, the core of it is you learn the fundamentals of investing in Canada. And then I actually show you how to invest in two different ways, either by using a robo advisor, or you know, going DIY, opening up your own discount brokerage account and being a self

directed investor and doing an all your own, which is actually what I do now. I actually used a robo advisor for a number of years. I'm a big fan of robo advisors, don't get me wrong, I love it. But it was time for me to go full on DIY and also really loving it. And I show you how to do both ways. So you can decide what what do you want to do? What makes the most sense for you? Because it is a very personal decision. So if you want more information about that, once again, you can go to Jessica morehouse.com slash WBB or check out the show notes for this episode, Jessica morehouse.com slash 296. Okay, without further ado, let's get to that episode with Zendile. Welcome to the More Money Podcast, Zendile. I'm so excited to finally have you on the show. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited

to be here. I am thrilled to have you on the show. So let's, let's go, we have to go back. And I'm so excited to have you on the show because I am so excited to share with my listeners your amazing story. I mean, so many things. So recently, we were both in an article. You were the feature of the article. I had no idea the article was about you. I was just told by the journalist, hey, I'm doing an article about debt repayment. I'm like, yeah, sure. So I just gave a few quotes. And then, bam, you're on the front cover. I'm like, oh, my gosh, how fun. That's so crazy. So that was that was kind of cool. But like we we go back, we go back quite a bit. So so from my recollection, and tell me if this is wrong. I met you at one of my library talks like five years ago, or four years ago.

Was that about right? I can't remember if it was a library talk, but it was definitely an in-person event. And at that point, I was just trying to figure out what is personal finance? Like, I mean, we all, you know, touch money at some point, but I think the term personal finance, at least for me, I had never heard of it. So I was just looking for a community and one of your events popped up and I came out. And from that point, I think I came to every single one that I could. I know you're very loyal. I was like, she's probably going to be like, who is this girl? Like every single one. No, I like that. You're like, oh, he's there. I mean, believe me, my, most people don't realize whenever I throw an event, I'm always terrified

no one is going to show up. So it's always nice to see a friendly face. I understand. And, you know, I was live tweeting and I was just networking and also just getting a lot of good information from those events. And I miss them so much. But I know it was fun. Maybe in 2022.

Maybe. Yes. We can't wait to get back to in-person events. Right. Yeah. Right. So so so take me back. So I actually learned quite a bit about you in that article.

I actually had no idea what you went through. So you're so let's kind of go, go, go back. So you are not originally from Canada. When did you immigrate to Canada? Right. So I came here in 2010. As an international student, I am originally from Zimbabwe. That's where I was born and grew up. And I came to Canada for school, you know, looking for better opportunities. And I'm not sure if your listeners are familiar, but international students pay a completely different set of tuition. I would love for you to share more about that because I don't know anything about that. I think most like people who are just like, you know, born and raised in Canada have no idea how international being an international student works.

Right. So essentially, we pay like higher, way higher rates. And I mean, people can argue that there's a reason for that. And we come all the way here for school. And there's things that we have to pay for, because we don't pay taxes. But you know, I remember at the time, the average for a year in tuition was about $20,000 average. And this was back in 2010. This was 2010, yes. And I did go to a very good program and everything. There are cheaper schools, but you know how it is.

When you're going to school, you're looking for opportunities. So I wanted to do that program. I did journalism at Carlton. And this is tuition. This is not living expenses. This is not everything else that you have to pay for in life. This is tuition alone. So a little bit of background. Zimbabwe is, you know, going through a lot in terms of the economy, in terms of the political situation. So basically when I got here, I was financially independent because,

you know, the tuition is so expensive and my family didn't have the income at the time to be able to put me through school. So from about second year, I always had a job, as many jobs as I can find. And just bear in mind that with immigration, there are actually limits on the hours you can work. So I had to also apply for scholarships I had to at some point I was also a residence fellow on campus so that I could they pay for your like housing and your food um I was doing everything and anything really to be honest with you because I had to pay that bill to go forward to the next year. Because if you don't pay your bill, you actually cannot access how to register

for the next year. So in about third or fourth year, I had to resort to applying for credit and any other sorts of funds because I couldn't pay my bill. And I didn't have access to some of the low interest loans that are out there, which is like your OSAP or even low credit, right? A lot of people don't know that too, that if you're not an immigrant, sorry, if you're not a resident, you will have very high interest rates. So I think my interest rate for my first credit card was like 24.99%. And bear in mind, I didn't know how to use credit. So I was just trying to pay my things. So obviously I went over it. I wasn't making my minimum payments. I didn't know how to use it. I just knew I needed money to survive. So I applied for a credit card as soon as I could. Luckily, not too early in my journey,

but at that point I needed, I was desperate. So once that tapped out, I also applied for payday loans, which honestly is a whole other conversation. How? I would love to talk about that. I feel like there's such a stigma around payday loans. But I'm assuming the reason that you got them is like last resort what there was nothing else. Absolutely. There was nothing else. All I needed to do was to give them a paycheck. And maybe like proof of address or something like that. And they gave me money straight up and it just became a cycle right and at some point I couldn't pay it so it just like 300% interest on this thing yeah yeah it just grew and grew like and they have access to your it's like direct debit so when you owe them

it comes out there's no like and if maybe no pushing it forward, you can't negotiate anything. And so that time in my life was really hard because I was honestly very ashamed that I was using those loans because based off of what I was reading or what I understood, it's like, do you have to be in an extremely terrible place to be resorting to such loans or it's just not talked about. Right. So I kind of hid it from most of my friends or anyone until I got to a point where I knew that I needed help and I started talking about it and be open about it. But that was the first that I paid off because even to this day, it still just makes me feel it's very emotional for me. shame. And I kind of get, I guess, where the kind of negative connotation comes from, just because on the other side of it, it's like, you know, like how crazy the interest rates are

and how the statistics of people who get these loans, it's so difficult to get out. You're probably one of the lucky ones who figured out how to pay them off and not get back into that cycle. But I think a lot of us, it is kind of a privileged position to be in to say like, oh, I would never do that. It's like, because you've never had to. But you know, if you're in a situation where you have no other options, of course, you're going to take on that debt because you need to pay your bills and feed yourself. Exactly. I had to pay my bills. I had to pay my tuition. At that point, I had, you know, I have a great community and my friends were helping me with

living situations and everything but it comes to a point where like in the beginning I actually was enjoying the payday loan because I didn't have to ask people for help all the time it felt like okay at least I'm getting this money on my own accord but once I couldn't pay it, it was hard to get out of that cycle. But yes, I was not. Initially, I didn't realize how serious it was. Because it just felt so easy. And I wanted to have that feeling so bad of like independence at that time. So how much and I know this kind of you talked about this in the article, and I was actually kind of shocked how much debt did you eventually kind of how what was that total balance at that point where you're like, I need to get out of this, this is a problem. This is kind of it's kind of compiled into a, you know, a huge amount that I need to take care of. And I need to get help. Like you said, I need to get help. How much was that that big amount that you're looking at? Right. So I even told the journalist who wrote the article this that that is still probably the most the one that that is guesswork because I wasn't tracking at that time. Right. Right. And I also I tried to look around,

but there's not even a lot of documentation, right? They make it very easy. So for me, I estimate about 7,000, but it could be more. I actually cannot recall because it was, you know, when traumatic things happen to you, sometimes your response is to block, to block it out, right? So it's only now when I'm in a better position that I've been uncovering a lot of these things. And from my estimation, it was about 7,000. Like it obviously could have been worse, but at that time, you know, making minimum wage and having these thousands of dollars of bills from tuition, it, it, it felt like so much, it felt like, it felt like I would never pay that off at that time. Right. Right. So you're saying it was $7,000 in payday loans, but, and then plus

student loan, like any other kind of debt that you had? So I can break it down. So, so total is about, is approximately 50,000. Um, so 7,000 in payday loan, I had, um, about 20,000 left over to pay to tuition because the way it works was that I would basically register for school and then owe tuition so and pay it off slowly as I was going um and then what happened was they sent that to collections when I was done school so I didn't actually when I graduated I didn't get the certificate because I was owing. You only get that once you've paid off the amount. So that was that technically was a debt because I had to pay that I was paying it through collections. And that was the first step that I chose to pay off, even though it had a much lower interest rate than my credit card. But you needed the degree because how else can you get the job that you want to get higher pay

so you can pay off your debt without that degree you know like it's like how what do you expect people to do well like well you know what it was the job surprisingly was the easier part the hard part okay great the hard part about it was um for immigration purposes I needed my certificate so that was like really stressing me out because I I couldn't pay it off any quicker but I'm you are on a timeline you have I think it was like three years to to apply for this um for permanent residency the way that I did it there are many different, but that specific route to immigrate, you basically have to get a job in your field, work there for a year and apply for the permanent residency. But I had that bill and I needed the certificate to apply for immigration.

So that was a lot of pressure. That was the pressure. And that's why I ended up living in the middle of nowhere for a little bit. Shout out to Simcoe, Ontario, if anybody knows where that is. Not to be mistaken with Simcoe County. This is literally like an hour out of Brantford. And I got a job there as a proofreader. I know where Brantford is. I didn't know there was an out of Brantford. Brantford is like out of the way. Yeah, I got a job as a proofreader, but no regrets. That is what led me to get my permanent residency. So that debt was obviously really important.

And then I had a personal loan, which I took out once I became a, like, working, once I was working to help me pay things off faster. And I did have credit card debt because after graduating, I resorted to shopping because well I was stressed yeah I mean what do you do when it feels like the world is just like caving in on yourself and nothing is joyful because you have this huge debt burden on your back you're gonna and and there's all these emotions going on and these feelings of self-worth or negative self-worth and you don't feel good enough and shame all those things wrapped it together I've seen it so many times. Of course, you're going to rebel and do something counterintuitive, like spend money that you don't have on things that you don't necessarily need so you can feel something good.

Exactly. And that's what happened to me. So I had about $12,000 on a personal line of credit. And then I had, now I'm forgetting the breakdown, but I'm sure in the article, I can pull that up and look at it. But the credit card was the least. Once I started looking into personal finance, I understood a bit better how that works. So I stopped kind of using it as cash. So n so, so nip that in the bud. Um, but luckily when I did get permanent residency, I was able to consolidate my debt. Um, I, I called

the bank and I said, look, I am, this is crazy. I'm paying like $400 in interest at that point. Yeah. That's a lot. And I'm doing everything in my power. At that point, I was paying like 40% of my income towards debt. And mind you, I was not making that much money. And so I felt like I was literally drowning again. And luckily, the financial advisor helped me to consolidate my debt and my interest rate went way down. And that really helped. It literally cut down the time that I was projecting to pay my debt off by a year and a half. Wow. I know such a like useful and simple tool to consolidate debt. But I think what I found, you know, especially early on when I was learning about personal finance and, you know, tell me what you kind of think or what your experience was, was

you'd read all these blogs or these articles about debt repayment, and they would just talk about the debt snowball or the debt avalanche and how you should pay them off yourself. But it's like, but there are some tools out there, like using a line of credit that has lower interest or consolidating all of your debts into a personal loan or something like that, that can, like you said, literally cut down the time and also just all the savings and interest. You can like, you know, have it all paid off, you know, a year earlier. That's significant. That's a year of your life that you will be a little bit more free. Yeah. So how I'm curious how, you know, because you kind of stated that you didn't really know much about personal finance at the beginning. How did you learn all of these tools?

Was it your circle? Did anyone help you? Or was it just like self-education going online and just kind of putting your nose to the grindstone, so to speak, and educating yourself? So it's actually a mixture of things. I, when I was in journalism school, I took a class business in business journalism and we had a quiz one day, personal finance. And at that time I was really in my own world. I was just trying to work, to be honest with you, school was like second because I, I was just trying to work to survive so I came last in the in that quiz and the professor um had the prize for the last person he

had a twist so he gifted me the wealthy barber oh that's nice yes and I had no idea what that was but I read it yeah and I was kind of like and I guess this is why I'm a journalist. I was like, I need to find out everything and anything about this personal finance business. You're not going to catch me slipping ever again. So like I started just looking into it and I found like Bridget Casey, like so many after graduation. I found you right off the bat. And this is 2016.

I found a few other bloggers. So blogs were huge. And I just started reading. And the funny thing is I hadn't applied it to my personal finance yet. I was just reading, reading, reading. You're just researching. Researching, you know. And then when I graduated and I had to address my shopping situation and I had to address my collections agent and a few other, you know, like the job situation.

I was looking for a job right out of grad school. And it just clicked where I was like, let me talk about this on Twitter. And that's when I started tweeting about it and my journey. So just literally, sometimes I just like type in Twitter, like do a search bar about personal finance, like with my name, just to see how far I've come. Because it's a real reminder to me that I really did have no idea and it's just reading talking to people asking a lot of questions going to events and finding that personal finance community and along the way learning that you need to find people that you can relate to.

Because sometimes when people are telling you certain things, you won't really understand it. Maybe it's the way they speak or sometimes it's just lived experiences, right? Like I'm not going to relate to somebody who, for argument sake lives in manitoba has never left nothing against manitoba but it's like we just have different experiences so what is personal finance to them is completely different to what is personal finance for me and so i also found another blogger from the united states um called christian win. She has since rebranded. But at the time, her blog was Debt Free Black Girl. And I was like, I want to be.

What's her new brand? It's called Her Therapy Space. Oh, yes. Do you work for, I feel like you're connected. So I wonder if something connected. We are now connected. And I found her on Twitter too. Honestly, Twitter, shout out to Twitter.

Y'all should just hire me because I love Twitter because I've met so many people on there and my career has basically taken off because I just tweet people on there. I connect with people. I love connecting with people. And at that that time she let me blog for her and really the rest is history because I just took it and ran with it and I've continued to learn you know it's a it's a process I think like a lot of people think okay now you're an expert that's it it's like you're constantly learning new things, constantly learning new angles. And I'm also challenging the system because I don't want to hear with certain things that will hinder you from actually addressing your personal finances, right? Like, that's why I'm so passionate about connecting mental health and money. Because, again, I'm never going to tell someone, oh, just do this, just do that.

Because I don't know your situation. And I can give blanket advice, but I'd rather get to know people on that personal level or at least share my journey and explain that money and mental health and your emotions are all tied up together. And it gets messy. There's no linear. It can get messy. Right? Yeah. Even when you have money. Oh, yeah. Like money isn't the solution always.

Exactly. It just causes other situations. Yeah, I feel like that's what I've been so. That's why I've been so drawn to you. I love your Twitter. I am not good at Twitter. I think I'm just terrified of saying honestly, like even in me in my position, I'm always terrified of saying something stupid, you know, like something wrong, you know, I have. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Still. And so it's so nice to see you were so good at it and you're so vocal and you bring up you're just talking about so many important things that need to be heard. So it's such a, like you're a breath of fresh air in my opinion. Well, also I am just a big fan of your writing. Like I've read so many cause you're also a freelance writer. You previously worked at lowest rates and a lot of wrote a lot of great,

great articles there and so yeah like you said it's it's for me who's been oh i feel so old saying this i've honestly started my blog it will be in december 10 years ago how gross is that that's way too long that's disgusting that is perfect time to show the growth and the progression right just like the amount of change that has happened in 10 years i will tell you how back in the day when i started my blog and even then i'm like oh i don't know if i should start one i think i i thought you know i thought it was too late i missed the boat um i've always thought that and then i do it anyway thank goodness but uh the people that were what it was the conversations happening it was very black and white it was, the conversations happening, it was very black

and white. It was no one talked about emotions. No one talked about mental health. No one talked about the real stuff. They talked about facts, do this, do that. Very just kind of practical stuff, but didn't really talk about. But what about the feelings that I have about money? I used to feel so much guilt and shame, um, was embarrassed

if I didn't know something like all of these negative feelings and no one talked about them. It's such a relief to see in the past, I'd say like four ish years, people really starting to bring that to the forefront because guess what? That, that old stuff doesn't work anymore. It's not helpful. And I, for me, I don't relate to that. And I even like, I'll tell you, I won't mention who the blog is. I stumbled on this blog. I was researching something and the, the basically context was, um, it was, it was providing some advice on what you should invest in and the tone and some of the language used was if you're not doing this, which can help you grow your money and and you know

retire early and whatnot you're lazy oh and you're stupid like that was the tone I think they even actually used the word lazy and I'm like it like to me honestly seeing the word lazy it was almost triggering I'm like I'm sorry what year is it is this back in 2010 when people did talk a lot they used to it was more aggressive I found and a little bit more judgmental. And I was just like, this is wild. And it was like not that old of a blog post a few years ago. I'm like, what? I mean, they are still.

It was like, maybe that works for somebody. But for, I think, lots of people that do have certain experiences with money, that's not helpful. No. That's actually going to make me feel worse and not want to take action. Exactly. And improve myself. Exactly. That's actually going to make me feel worse and not want to take action. Exactly. And improve myself. Exactly.

And that's where I was. Even with debt, you know, it's like this dirty word and you don't want to talk about it. It's your shame, right? Your shame. And it's like, no, I actually want to talk about it because it empowers me, right? Like I literally went from having no idea how to budget and, and, you know, live within my means to paying off my debt in basically three years. That's crazy. That is like a very short amount of time to pay off all that this and even just like the fact I

think people need to recognize it's like I was born and raised in Canada and had a pretty easy life I mean I you know my parents didn't help me out with school but they helped me out in that I had free room and board right and that's that's significant that's huge um and there's so there's a lot of privilege that you came here with nothing and did it on your own. Like, I can't imagine. Like, that sounds like I was scared to take the bus by myself at 20. You know what I mean? So, like, perspective people, it's like what you achieved is really amazing. Thank you. I was still terrified. Don't get it wrong. Like, I got on here on a plane on my own with two suitcases and I just didn't scared um and you didn't know anybody

did you know anybody in town did you have any family my sister did live um in Toronto at the times but I I saw her like a couple of weeks after I arrived but I think it's like again it's experience right that's so normal where I'm from. You just got to leave. Right. Because you need to search for those greener pastures. So I wasn't even thinking about it at the time, to be honest with you. Thank God, because it only really hit me during the pandemic. I have been so homesick in the pandemic. But I was like, I left 10 years ago. What is going on? But I think it was just like the closure of the border. It's the fact that you can't go back, right? Exactly. Like I never went back often, but the fact that the borders were closed, like really freaked me out.

So, I mean, I think the thing to take away from maybe how I did it is and why I want to talk about it more often is that I still lived for most for the most part I still lived my best life I definitely yeah you still you had like you weren't basically and this is definitely what I feel from your story and how you kind of express yourself online is you weren't um kind of again like going back to what people were talking about 10 years ago which was like live frugally and sacrifice and not enjoy anything until you're debt-free absolutely you were about you were back to what people were talking about 10 years ago, which was like live frugally and sacrifice and not enjoy anything until you're debt-free. Absolutely not. You were able to crush your debt,

but also live your life and enjoy it. And I always say like, it doesn't matter what budget you have, you should always budget for fun. Whether that be $20, whether that be $1,000, you need to incorporate that into your budget because that level of restriction whether that be a thousand dollars you need to incorporate that into your budget because

the that level of restriction is not normal in any circumstance whether it be dieting whether it's your finances whether it's you know connecting with people you can't isolate something like that you you need to plan for fun and so yeah I won't I will will be upfront with numbers as I always have been. In the beginning, it was $50. Then when I made a little bit more, I was giving myself $100 a month. And in part with me celebrating paying off my debt, I had three big goals at the beginning of the year. I wanted to pay off my debt by August 3rd which I did I also wanted to spend five thousand dollars on anything that I wanted because it was also my 30th birthday this year happy birthday thank you and so with's like, Oh, why such a specific number? And why are you talking

about it? And I also feel like there seems to be a shame around spending money, which is weird, because we all do it. What else are we supposed to do with money? Like it's literally meant to be spent. We all do it. And I get it. Like, sometimes when we are telling people what to do it's easy to come off as like in that tone like oh this is so bad and you need to do this but I just like to have that mindful approach or at least be honest like I tell people when it's like okay guys listen this month your girl done went off her plan and I'm open about that because there's no way all of you you know personal finance experts or whatever the word is the community there's no way it's just perfect well maybe I'm wrong no way way. No, no, it's not true. Believe me. I know, I know things. And I also know me. And that's why I don't really share specifically what I spend my money on,

because I'm like, well, I don't want to open myself up. You do have to be brave to open up yourself to commentary. But also, I'm like, I don't care what people think. I know what I and I think this is what you're doing. It's like, I know what I'm doing. So I'm good. So you don't, you don't need to, you know, I don't need your opinion because I'm, I've got me. But yeah, we all make, you know, we have like, oh, there was a term I, I don't know if I came up with, but someone did, but basically like there's like a spending accident, a spending accident,

back-cident, that doesn't really work, but something like that, you know what I mean? There was a term that I had a friend that she used to say, snack accident, snack-cident, but I was trying to do something like that you know what I mean there was a term that I had a friend that she used to say snack accident snack accident but I was trying to do something like that no well now it's now I feel like spending is coming up a lot but in the form of like revenge spending people are talking about spending is so yeah right and I get it yeah we've been through a pandemic and people want to spend but I'm actually not shaming people for doing that. Like, I don't know about y'all, but I literally, I just was hanging in there by a thread. Okay. So yes, I spent a lot of money this month, but I don't regret it. My bills are paid, um, on time in full. I've made my

contribution to my savings and investment accounts. And I've chosen to spend money on myself because spending for joy is necessary. And I would love to continue to spread that message because, you know, when you spend, especially on things that align with like your core values, your beliefs, you really regret it. Like I regret the spending on things where it's like, I'm either following a trend or like, I didn't really plan for it. In fact, just yesterday I had a disastrous situation where I'm guilty of relying on my phone. So I have like Samsung pay and my phone was dying and I was in home sense which it should already tell you what was happening that's always a dangerous place I can't even dangerous yeah you can't go in there empty-handed like you were going to get I was I always buy something when I'm in I was going to get something I came I was at the cash with more things than I came in to get

all of a sudden it was all we're revamping the whole room and when I got to the front my phone died uh-huh so I just took that as a sign I was like hey the lord said not today you're not spending your money and so I left and I'm fine yeah I'm actually like that was actually a blessing in disguise because I would have returned most of those things. I didn't need half of them. Um, but that's the other thing. Don't be shy to return. There's a little bit of guilt around that, you know? Oh, I love a good return. I mean, for me, it's been, especially because I shop mainly online now because I like, I haven't been to a mall in like a year or a year and a half. I don't know when the last time I was.

And so I pretty much because of the pandemic, I've been doing everything online, but it's great because it's like, well, Hey, you have to kind of buy more than you want because you have to try things on. You can't try things on, but then it's like, it's also great because there's no shame in returning. Cause you literally just mail it back and they give you a little man. So you don't even have to usually, you know,

there's free returns or whatever. It's best no shame because it's like try it on no and then do it exactly but yeah going into a store there's a little bit more of a pressure but also it's like you feel really good when you get the return money like that's the best feeling you're like i don't want this give me back my money right right well i think another thing with revenge spending like I said um I did actually write about it but like we were talking about the pandemic has been really tough on a lot of people financially emotionally spiritually physically like everything this pandemic is coming for so when it comes to personal finance I think let's not leave mental health out of the conversation because I know there was parts of the pandemic where I was shopping up a storm. Um, you know,

I decided to spruce up my place. I decided to, you know, invest a little bit more money in personal development. And sometimes I did go overboard. But again, I'm not going to say I regret it, because I did what I needed to do to survive at that time. And I didn't feel emotionally well enough at the time to, you know, imagine now if I'm being harder on myself on top of everything that I'm going through. And I know a lot of people appreciate when I talk about those kinds of things, because they do have those feelings and they feel weird about it. So I think going forward, because we don't really know if, well, we know things have gotten better, but who knows, maybe we'll be in another lockdown, right my gosh i hate to say that but those are the realities but yeah it's like you never know and so that's why i'm like i'm not making

any real solid plans exactly ever exactly it's changed it's changed how we look at money deal with money there's a lot of people who are actually now way more serious about their finances even me through all of that i didn't have a emergency fund until the beginning of this year wow yeah wow what kind of like what was the reasoning before it was it just you were more focused on paying off your debt exactly i had that goal in my mind and i could you couldn't't tell me anything. Like I was like, I was on, what do you call them? No spending diets. I was like, at first I really restricting myself. And I thought, oh, I can pay off my debt quicker if I don't build an emergency fund, which was a terrible idea because every single time something came up, I would go backwards, right?

And you'd have to borrow. I'd have to borrow. Emergencies happen, right? And it's really easy to say from my position now that I have one, but I'm telling you it's not easy because I didn't have one. And I put my foot down and I said, said okay you're only going to make minimum payment towards your debt for a couple of months while you build yourself an emergency fund and I did that and wow what a feeling is this what you have been experiencing it's like oh if any little thing

happens I do have something to dip into and I just feel safer. My finances just feel healthier. Like I definitely am happy that I, I, I put aside my pride, um, and my unrealistic deadlines on myself. And I took some time to take care of that because it's really important. I think that's probably so, so important. Yeah. Yeah. The amount can fluctuate. Yeah. Yeah. How did you determine how much made sense for you to feel comfortable? Yeah. So I just did, um, I just did $3,000 initially. Um, I know people say three to six months of your expenses, you know, you have to determine what your emergencies are, right? And in my case, my rent is pretty

affordable. So I was like, okay, two months rent will be fine because I know that I can make that income, you know, right, whatever I need to do. But my main thing as well is like a flight ticket home. If I need to go home for any reason, that's an emergency for me. So it was just roughly, you know, two months of living expenses and then money for a ticket in case of emergency. So that's how I did it. And I think what I've learned now is just starting small is better than not starting at all. And if I had just saved, I mean, even $10 from the moment I started working for Paycheck, I would have not been in this situation. But yeah, knowing that any number is okay, even if what the experts are telling you,

it's like, but assess your situation, right? Like if you are already struggling to make ends meet and you don't put way too much pressure on yourself and be hard on yourself, even a thousand dollars, even $500 is better than none. And you can build towards those big goals where you can have, you know, a year's worth of savings or whatever you need to feel comfortable. Yeah, I think that's the most important thing. And I know I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but personal finances, personal, the best thing that you can do is take information as you do your own research, listen to podcasts, read books, read blogs, etc. And then determine what makes you feel good. Because if you just use someone else's roadmap, it may,

you may end up in a destination that doesn't make any sense for you. You've got to do whatever makes sense to you. And very well, no one will know your situation. Cause you know, I mean, I don't tell people like how much money I have in my emergency fund and stuff like that. So it's like, it's a number that's for me. So just remember that it doesn't matter what anyone else, cause they may not never know. So you just do whatever makes sense for you and your situation. But like you said, start small and start saving that emergency fund. It's like, if anything could be taken out of as a, as a positive lesson or a learning lesson for everyone in the pandemic is how important emergency fund is because emergencies can come out of nowhere. Definitely.

And you're like, oh, shoot. Yes. Like that, that was a wake up call for me, for sure. So now that we kind of, we've talked about, you know, all the things you've accomplished, I know you're kind of taking the summer off. There's been some changes for you. What's next for you? What are some of the things that you have in store or planning in the future?

Well, I am continuing this ministry of financial wellness because I am having the time of my life, to be honest with you, where I am managing to live life on my own terms and see progress when it comes to my personal finance, right? And so I think I've been open, but I am going to continue to be even more open and more open to conversations and continue to write and teach people about financial wellness because personal finance and financial literacy is great sorry so financial literacy is great but you know when you're not well emotionally or if you're facing certain challenges I think majority of that goes out the window. Like you need to be able to manage your mental health better to be able to improve your relationship with money. So I really look forward to writing more and speaking more and teaching more people about how to improve their relationship with money

because I literally went from extremely unhealthy abusive relationship with money to a healthy loving you know situation where I can balance it all care of myself and listen to my body as well as um follow like my heart when it comes to my personal finance decisions because when you don't have choices or options it's really depressing actually it's like It's like, you're really stuck between a rock and a hard place. So I'm just continuing to share, you know, my journey, share my story. And another part is, you know, I definitely want to be more open about the other things that I do. I think like the joys of freelancing is that I can be open about the fact that I also work with a mental health practice, her therapy space. And we do a lot of work for women of color and trying to help, you know,

women that look like me manage their mental health better, because there are a lot of things that we go through that it's taboo to talk about. And we're just trying to shatter those stereotypes. So I'm very excited about where my role is going with her therapy space as well. And also just just today I revealed or announced that I am also a DJ um I saw that I where did this come like what was this always happening or no so actually I thought I was gonna be a music journalist all my life well not all my life but most of my life so I'm I've always loved music and I've always like been that person at a party who is in charge of the playlist. So when the pandemic started and I was looking for a hobby, I was looking into actually learning how to DJ.

You're so smart for getting a hobby during the pandemic. I haven't learned any new skills. No, it was either it was like that or like get a plant or like it was just like very like random things but I was like okay I'm toying around with that but the equipment is very expensive but my a good friend of mine and one of my mentors actually gifted me like the controller that I needed so then obviously I knew I was like, okay, someone's gifted it to you. You have no excuses. So for the past year, I've been a professional living room DJ, having parties by myself with my roommate. And so I wasn't really posting about it. So that's why it's just like very random um but yeah I'm now looking to book events for that

and help people curate you know their events because I just love I love like bringing that energy that into the room I love like that feeling of curating music for people so that they can just have a good time. Um, well, maybe I can do an event and you can be my DJ. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Let's put that into the universe. Cause I would love to see that. Absolutely. And I love like making themes and stuff around music so I will make sure it's relevant and everyone has a good time I love it um so I'm doing that now as a side hustle and just continuing to to see where life takes me I really have been intentional about what I spend my time doing um because I have been going hard since I got to this country I had never taken a break um I think last Christmas this Christmas in the pandemic was

the first time I didn't work um so I obviously needed a break so I So I'm just listening to my body, but at the same time, trying to make room for all the wonderful things in personal finance that I know I can do. And yeah, so if you're looking for writers, speaker, teacher, DJ, you know where to find me. Well, yeah, where can people find you if they want to follow you you're you're on Twitter and Instagram you've got a website where can people find you yeah so

on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok it is Zahnows and that is Z-A-N-O-W-S. And my website is www.zangilachuanza.com. And I would just give you that warning now that I am passionate about personal finance and financial wellness. I do not hold back. I'm planning on going even more hard on good oh good on all those things and I just I just want all of us to live our best lives right I was living my best life for so long where it's like you know you have it together like you've got your job you've got the freelance you're doing what you

need to do but I don't know how healthy it was all the time right because you know you have to be careful of also putting pouring all your life into your work and then not really putting that time into yourself and so the pandemic has taught me that when you are feeling like you are just extremely exhausted and you have those really bad emotions and they can be really scary to talk about, that's usually a sign that you either need to take a break, you need to reach out to someone, you need to, you know, talk to a therapist or, you know, just don't be afraid to address some of those mental health issues because it all leads to some of the other problems it lends to the other problems that you have in your life so it does. It does. Well, thank you so much for coming on, especially after all these years I've known you. And it's such a so amazing that you were able to share your story, but also just go through it and be in the place that you are now. So personally, I'm very

excited to kind of continue to watch your journey and see where you end up next. I think the sky's the limit. You're only 30. And for me, honestly, I kind of felt like my kind of life started at 30, like my career finally started the career that I have now. I started making choices that were for me. I stopped caring about what other people thought life to me or the life that I wanted that I was most intentional with started at 30. So very excited to see what's happening for you. And I also want to thank you because you were definitely part of my journey. Like you were talking about at the beginning, you didn't know that I was the subject of the article. I didn't know that you were the expert. So when I saw that, I was like, that is literally the best thing.

Like it made my day. I know. Because I listened to your podcast, actually relatable and easy to listen to. You don't make it complicated. You don't make us feel like we have no idea what we are. And we're these, you know, peasants who are begging you to teach us all things personal finance. You've created a very welcoming environment.

And I think that's important in the personal finance space. And yeah, if you're looking for people to follow, follow people that make you feel good. It's a red flag if someone's making you feel like crap. I might be hard. Unfollow them. Life is too short to follow them. Yeah, it might be hard on you. But I'll always crack a little joke in there and make it feel just know that it's always for the best and it's coming from a good place. Absolutely. Well, thanks again for coming on the podcast. It was a pleasure having you on. Absolutely. Thanks so much. And that was episode 296 with Zandila Chiuwanza.

Make sure to check her out at her website, ZandilaChiuwanza.com. I've linked to it in the show notes for this episode. Just go to JessicaWernhouse.com slash 296 to find it easy. And also make sure to follow her

on Twitter and Instagram. Her handle is Zah Knows. So that's Z-A-K-N-O-W-S. So Zah Knows. Very simple. Okay. So as I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, I have some life updates to share with you. And since I'm literally recording this a week before I'm releasing this episode, it's pretty real time. So I think I mentioned in some previous episodes, especially in last season, me and my husband were looking to sell our townhouse and to

hopefully find a house in Toronto, which sounds insane when I say it out loud. And especially since everything that's been going on. So we were able to actually sell our house. Yay, we were able to sell our townhouse. It happened very quickly. And it was not without its hiccups. We had to switch realtors. And then we had to find an Airbnb to live for a week so we can stage our place and make it look presentable. I mean, we are not very good at design, so we needed some help with that. And yeah, we listed it.

And within a week, we got an offer and sold it for the price point that we wanted, which is such a relief, such a relief. So that is the good news. The bad news is now we're basically homeless because we have a couple more months, I guess, in this place. And then we got to be out of here. And no, we don't have another place to live right now. And you may think that's crazy because most people buy a new home and then sell their home. We did the opposite. And there's a few reasons why we did that. Number one, it's because we're not really in a like we're in a lucky situation that we don't

have kids. So we don't have to, you know, stay in the same school district or figure all that stuff out. We're pretty flexible because it's just me and my husband. And so we're like, you know what, we really just want a number one that the main goal really is getting out of this place because I've told you we have neighbors above us and they're driving me crazy, crazy. So I really want to just get the heck out of here. And then we'd find out where we want to live after and whether that if that means we're going to rent for a little bit, then we'll rent. If that means buying a place, then we're going to buy a place. So we want to just be flexible like that. That was the plan. We're

searching for a home to live. So hopefully I'll have some good news to share with you in a future episode. Right now, we're just it's been this is like week two of house hunting and it is the worst. I am not having a good time at all. It's not fun. Selling your place is so easy and fun. Buying a place is the worst, especially in this kind of market in Toronto, which I'm not again, it's like, yeah, you're trying to buy a home in one of the most expensive cities in Canada when there's also like a housing shortage. I understand the stakes. I understand what's going on. But still, it's it is what it is. So we'll see what happens who knows like my alternative is like why don't we just move to costa rica with the the money that you know we we made off our property

oh that would be funny that would be an interesting twist um i mean i feel like i personally could do it i don't think my husband could do it he needs to be in this city um for his work but um who knows so anyways that is like the big life update soldier house do not have He needs to be in this city for his work, but who knows? So anyways, that is like the big life update. Sold her house, do not have another house to live in. So we'll see how things go. Let's see what else is going on. So much is going on. Actually, I think nothing else is going on. I think that's the main thing. That's really all that's it's literally just taking over our lives. I don't know if you know, you listening have gone through this process. It's been a while since you know, we did this situation. And we were really lucky buying our townhouse and that we, you know, basically, there was one day that we we looked at like,

maybe four or five townhouse properties. And this was like, I think the last one that we saw, and we put an offer and we got it. So it was an easy breeze. But if I'm to look back at the first time we ever did house hunting in Toronto, which was maybe 2015, 2014. I don't know, something like that. I have some blog posts that were about it. And I was actually looking at them the other day. And I'm like, Oh, right. It was a terrible time. We had the worst time. We also had a terrible realtor, who I'm not going to say who it is. I don't even know if they are practicing anymore, but there's a lot of things that we did wrong. And we did not find a home and we continued to rent for a little bit. And that was a good idea for us at the time, but I forgot how taxing it is. It's stressful. And literally,

I'm dreaming about houses. So that's what's going on with me, guys. But on other fun news, I have, you know, we're not quite, but we're getting to it. It's been close to a year, I guess in February, it'll be officially a year that I did launch my Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians course. And I am having the best time ever. I have the best students ever. It is such a great way for me to teach something that I wish was so much easier to learn. Gosh, you know, in my 20s, even in my early 30s. And we keep on getting, you know, we, me, keep getting new enrollments every single day. And it's been really, really exciting to see just the journeys of all the students and the transformations, which is basically having no idea what to do in terms of their investments

and how to like save for retirement. And then being in a place where you're confident enough to open up your own, you know, Quest rate account or something like that. And, you know, build your own ETF portfolio and rebalance it on your own. So if you want to learn more about my investing course, if this is something that you want to really tackle, especially since we're getting close to the end of the year, and it's been a goal of yours to start investing, because the sooner you start investing, the better off you'll be in the future. Future you will thank you.

You can find more information in this show notes, but also just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash WBB. Oh, yeah. One last thing I want to mention, because I can't remember, honestly, if I mentioned it in the last episode, possibly. So obviously, I had an author on last week, Jennifer Turley, and she had that book. And I can't remember if I said that I was going to give away that book, I probably did. But then I totally forgot that I mentioned that and that I didn't have the book giveaway on the landing page. It's up there now. So apologies. I put it up there as soon as I remember. Again, it's the house hunting that has been taking up my whole life and all of my brain energy. So just go to JessicaMoorhouse.com slash contest if you want to enter to win a copy of that book

as I have more authors on the show, which I will. I will be putting up more book giveaways, you know, on that page. So JessicaMorris.com slash contest. One last thing I'll share is make sure to follow me on Instagram. I've actually been having a lot of fun with Instagram reels. And I think I'm pretty good at them or I like to have a good time. I like to have some educate edutainment, educational entertainment. Oh, that's such a gross word. So if you want to follow me on Instagram, I also did recently an Instagram live and I'm going to, I think, do a lot more of those because they're a lot of fun. Make sure to follow me at Jessica I Morehouse. That is my handle at Jessica I Morehouse. There's also the More Money podcast on Instagram as well. And the handle

is just More Money podcast. So that is it for me. Thank you so much for listening. I will be back next week with a fresh new episode of the More Money Podcast. Until then, have a good rest of your week, good weekend. I'll see you next Wednesday. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.