More Money Podcast - 297 How to Break the Money Silence - Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, Wealth Psychology Expert

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

It’s no surprise that I love talking to friends, family, or basically anyone about money. But that’s not the case for a lot of people. Today’s guest on the podcast is trying to make talking about money easier. I’m joined by the author of Breaking Money Silence and wealth psychology expert Kathleen Burns Kingsbury. Kathleen has a background in banking and finance but after completing her Master’s degree in psychology, she decided she wanted to merge the two and create her own business. Breaking Money Silence®: How to Shatter Money Taboos, Talk More Openly about Finances, and Live a Richer Life is Kathleen’s fifth book and it aims to teach how to approach talking about money with the people in our lives. In this episode, Kathleen shares why negotiation is an essential tool in everyone’s money arsenal, how to approach talking to your parents about money, and why being money compatible is essential to a successful relationship. Kathleen is a wealth of knowledge (pun intended) and it was such a privilege to have her on the show! For full episode show notes visit https://jessicamoorhouse.com/297 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. I am your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 297 of the show. Thank you so much for coming back and taking another listen for a fresh new episode. Very excited about this next guest. I have Kathleen Burns Kingsbury on the show. She is the founder of KBK Wealth Connection and the host of the Breaking Money Silence podcast. And she's also an internationally published author and speaker. And what we're going to be kind of diving into in this episode is her book. I'm also going to be giving away her book, just an FYI. So she has a book called Breaking Money Silence, How to Shatter Money Taboos, Talk More Openly About Finances, and Live a Richer Life.

It is her fifth book. And oh boy, is it a good one? Is it ever a amazing, amazing book. And we have such a great conversation about a number of different topics. But really, I mean, it's the whole reason I have this podcast is to break the money silence. And that can mean so many different things to so many different people. But the main thing that I have kind of recognized, you know, since I started, you know, talking about money openly and writing about it, and then having this podcast, my YouTube channel, all this kind of stuff is, it is not easy to actually talk about money to and writing about it and then having this podcast, my YouTube channel, all this kind of stuff is it is not easy to actually talk about money, to share things about money, to even learn about money because there's just so many emotions and feelings and judgments and everything wrapped up into it.

And so it's not easy, but it's kind of vital. It is actually totally vital to our survival and to our future success. And so it's very important. So you're going to love this episode just as much as I loved recording it. But before I get to that interview with Kathleen, just a few notes I want to share, things that you may or may not know about that I want to share before I kind of get into things. So number one, if you did not know, because I kind of mentioned it briefly, I have a YouTube channel. And I have a ton of videos. They're kind of not more fun. They're just a different thing I'm doing than the podcast because it is me talking to you,

diving into a specific topic. I talk about investing and budgeting and oh gosh, a lot of things on taxes in a small business for anyone who's interested in that kind of side of things. So make sure to check that out. You can find it at Jessica Morehouse.com slash YouTube or just Google my name in YouTube. I'm also on Instagram and having a lot of fun with Instagram reels. And you can find me at Jessica I Morehouse. You can also find this podcast on Instagram at more money podcast as well. And lastly, in case you've never heard, or maybe you haven't, that you just need a reminder, I have an investing course called wealth building blueprint for Canadians. And it is specifically focused on you know, on a topic that I talk a lot about on this show, which is passive investing. So if you want to

learn about how to either use a robo advisor or build your own index ETF portfolio with a discount brokerage, and you're like, yes, I want to do that. I just have no idea how to actually go about doing that. And also how much do I need for retirement? And how do I make an investment plan? And how do I do all these things? That's why I built this course. And again, this is specific for Canadians. So we talk about, you know, the kind of things that I think if you're not Canadian, you won't touch on, such as our different registered accounts, taxation, our different products and platforms. I go in depth in the course and actually show you me opening up, I think, seven different

accounts or eight different accounts at different robo advisors and then cut to 10 months later show you what the results were and how did things go which is pretty cool that is just one of the many things that I show you specifically in the course so really you can come at it as a total beginner at the end of it you will know exactly what to do how to implement your plan and start investing so that's my little spiel thanks for listening listening. Without further ado, let's get to that interview with Kathleen. Welcome to the More Money Podcast. Kathleen, I'm so excited to have you on the show to talk about a very important topic, which is talking about money. We're going to talk about money and talk about the importance of talking about money. So, so excited to have you on here.

Thank you, Jessica. It's really exciting to be here. Yes. And very, very, you know, lucky to have you because you really did write the book on literally why it's so important to, you know, break your money silence, not stay in silence and talk about money. And there's so many things and topics. I mean, I've been talking about money for a decade, and you'll never run out of things to talk about. You'll always kind of find as you, you know, get into different stages of life, other things that are more awkward to talk about. I mean, I know one of the things that you talk about in your book is the importance of talking to, say, your parents about estate plans and

stuff like that. That's a good, fun thing that me and my husband are trying to navigate as we're, you know, in our 30s, our parents are reaching retirement, or they're retired. So lots of things that are important to talk about. But before we kind of dive right into the meat of it, can you share a little bit about yourself? I mean, I know you've been in this world for a very long time, have a number of books or a well recognized speaker on this topic, but you got to share a little bit about your background. Sure, sure. My background's a little mixed. So I started off in banking and finance out of college and then realized over the course of time that I really was interested in psychology. And so worked in the field of psychology for a number of years, empowering women and really enjoyed it.

And then around 2006, 2007, I had my master's degree in psychology. And I said, you know what, I want to just create my own business. And so I took everything that I love from the banking industry, which is primarily the education piece that you identify with and everything I love from psychology, which is really the empowerment piece. And I said, how do I blend the two together? And I kind of made it up as I went along, wrote a couple of books and look, it worked out. It worked out. Yeah. On a personal level, I'm also somebody who's struggled with under earning in my past and, you know, struggled in my marriage to talk openly about money. So, you know, I have a ton of credentials, but I also am a real person that has been through it because nobody has a perfect relationship with money.

No, I mean, that's something that I've, I think why I'm so attracted to this topic is I've had my own struggles, and they have definitely evolved. Whereas I've always been pretty, like excited and open to talk about money. But there's so many things and emotions that surround money that it's really only been I I'd say, in the last five years. I've, you know, and also working with a therapist is helpful to really kind of open up what some of those issues are that you're kind of just bearing down, like the shame or, you know, you mentioned under-earning. I mean, I think a lot of women can probably relate to that, sadly, but of course, I've dealt with that as well. And, you know, really thinking for the longest time, you're under earning, not because I rarely thought it was because I was a woman and there's so much

inequality in the world. I always thought it was my fault. I wasn't doing something. It was because something that I could or, you know, could control and didn't do this. I wasn't good enough and all that kind of stuff. And I know, of course, you know, we'll kind of maybe dive into this topic first because it's very relevant. And I see this talk, you know, everyone's still talking about, you know, the gender wage gap, why women are earning less. And it's interesting to see the different conversations taking place some people and I feel like this is, you know, the conversation we've been seeing for a while as well, we just need to speak up for ourselves, the whole lean in kind of thing, we need to negotiate, which of course, I think is important. That was something that I didn't know I should do. I never negotiated a job. I

didn't know I was allowed. I didn't know that's something I could do. But then there's the real, I think, reasons why people may not do that if they know this is something they should do is the fear of but what if, what if they take the job back after I try to get more money? What if I, you know, they don't even want to give me a second interview and all that kind of stuff? So I kind of like to start there because I know you do talk a lot about negotiation. Where should people start when they have an idea? I know negotiation is important. That is how we as women especially earn more money in our jobs, but I am terrified of even approaching it. Yeah, it's one of the most awkward financial conversations, I think, for men and women. I think

women are freer to admit it than men. I think men often struggle as well. And I've certainly coached and worked with men as well. But I think when you just to start with the gender wage gap, I mean, it's, it's such a complex issue. So there's systematic issues, and then there's the pieces that are in our control. And the part that is in our immediate control as an individual is looking at, do we negotiate? Do we ask for what we're worth? Do we even know what we're worth? And certainly in my history, when I started this business, I started, and for the first year, I actually volunteered for 20 hours a week and worked in my business for 20 hours a week, not consciously. So it wasn't till

all of a sudden I got this award for being a volunteer of the year that I looked back and I stood on stage and accepted this award. And I was so honored because I really believed in the organization I volunteered for. But at the same time, I looked to my right and my left and I said, wait a second, everybody on this stage but me is being paid. Now that there's something wrong with that. And so I took a step back and I really looked at my psychology around money. And there was something about volunteering that was so much easier for me than being able to say, you know what? I have this skill set. This is my fee. This is what you need to pay. So I don't recommend this to everybody because I'm not anti-volunteering, but I went cold turkey. I couldn't do the maybe a little,

maybe a lot that tends to be who I am. So I just said no volunteering for the first two years of my business. So it forced me to look at my relationship with money and to fill up those hours with paid work versus to fill up those hours with other types of work. So I know that's a long winded answer to the beginning of your question. Fascinating. Well, I'm curious, why did you, when you kind of were doing, I guess, more some self-discovery, why did you find it easier to volunteer than to ask for payment for your services? Yeah, I did some money coaching myself on this as well as, you know, self-exploration. And I really think it comes down to the messages that I was raised with were there was nobility of poverty, you know, a certain religion, Catholicism believes in the

nobility of poverty. There was also a very subtle message and it wasn't direct because I was raised, I was a woman, I had a sister, you can do anything you want in this world. But there was also a subtle message of don't get too full of yourself. Don't be too successful or financial successful people. there's something wrong with them. And it's not like mom and dad sat down and said that to us. It's like I picked up on this message. And so when I started to create my own business, which I believe I probably would have never realized this about myself, I realized I had a fear of success. Like what if I was more financially successful than my parents? Would my husband still love me? Would my friends

still hang out with me? And on some level in my head, I think, how ridiculous, but there's some truth to it. We have trouble with women who are financially successful. We both say you should be, but then a lot of times other women, and I try to not be this type of person and surround myself with people who aren't like this. But there is sometimes this judgment that comes with, oh, she's so profit motivated in a way that's very different than what I see with my male friends or the males, you know, colleagues or business people that I work with. So I had to really look at that and start to do the hard work that I now coach people to do,

which is, you know, let's do the research. What are you worth? And let's start asking for it. And it hasn't been perfect, but it's kind of a superpower now. I like enjoying negotiating for what my worth is. Yeah, that's so I mean, I can relate a lot because I was also raised Catholic. So I'm like, yep, that's a lot of the things that I discovered about myself. And it's interesting. I also had that realization of that fear of like, but what if you do become successful? And instead of being excited, it really just scared me. And that, you know, was something that I had to kind of learn to overcome. But like you said, it's like we're told as women growing up or, you know, as girls growing

up, you can do anything you want. But then once you become an adult, that's kind of not the same message you're getting. You're like, well, but don't be, you know, stay humble and don't want too much and don't be greedy and et cetera, et cetera. Whereas if you were a man, you probably, yeah, don't brag, you know, don't ever, you know, do that. Whereas if you were a man, I'm sure you would not be getting that messaging. You would be, you know, usually your praise is like, oh oh look at this person they're so successful etc etc so yeah I feel like that is something that I'm glad more women and people are talking about there's more of a spotlight on that because it doesn't make any sense and that's why I think a lot of women especially as they enter their adult years there's

a weird disconnect or like but I was told this one thing growing up that I can be whatever I want. And now I'm not, I'm told that actually, but don't, but don't, maybe don't do that. Yeah. It's not attractive. It's not sexy. There's one statistic out there of female breadwinners. 40% of female breadwinners downplay their earning status to friends and family because they're fearing the judgment of that. Now, part of that is internally, we have to just come to grips with that and be comfortable in our skin, doing what we were meant to be doing and being paid whatever our worth is. The other piece is we really have to look at society and go, that is crazy. And there's other layers to it in terms of what your race is, your ethnicity. But I think as a society, we have to really take a hard look at that.

And I see women like you who are really breaking money silence, who are really talking about these issues. But I have had those conversations with women in their 20s and say, wait a second, I just graduated from college and I was told I could do anything. And now I'm told I can't. Yeah. So we have to really work individually at speaking up and supporting other women. So that's why I do what I do, because I really think it's so important to support other women. And men can support other women too. So it doesn't have to be an either or, it can be both. Exactly. I think for the

longest time, it always kind of felt like this is a women's issue. But I think now the conversation is shifting. I mean, I've had so many conversations over the past several years with my husband and he just was he wasn't aware. And I think that's the thing. Most men are not aware because maybe they're just not part of these conversations. So it's not just important to have these conversations with yourself and then your your community of women, but also men so they can be our allies and they can speak up for us as well, Because we can't,

it's, you know, I think that's the frustrating thing a lot of women deal with is it's like, it seems like we're all the we're speaking up for ourselves in the room, but no one else is backing us up, we need to be backed up. So that's the only way that we're going to see significant change over time. So we're not dealing with the same issue for generations and generations. Like it's just, you know, right. And my husband is actually the one who taught me how to negotiate because I grew up in a family where you just didn't do that. So I can remember we were buying our first dining room table and we had just gotten married and I wanted the brown dining room table, but the black one was priced lower. And my husband said, hang on. He goes, watch this. And he told me that I just really

needed to focus on the black table. That's what I really wanted, even though I wanted the brown table. So anyway, we had this whole kind of shtick going. And we ended up negotiating and getting that brown table. I love that table. I just recently gave that table to my nephew's girlfriend. And so it really represented the first time I negotiated anything and got what I wanted. And so I learned a lot from him.

He's not great at salary negotiations. He learns from me in that area. But boy, is he good at picking up furniture on the cheap. You know, yeah. And like you said, too, it's like, although women predominantly do deal with this issue, also like men do, too. I know so many men that, you know, people always expect me to be a good negotiator because I'm a man, but I'm terrible at it. I don't know what I do. I don't have that confidence. So it is like across the board to something that we all need to get better at.

But also, I think how we all get better at it is to have these open conversations about like, well, how much do you earn and etc, etc. I think that is one of the biggest things that I have learned is I used to only ask people, how much do you make? When I was on the way out, because I'm like, it's okay, I can ask you because I don't work here anymore. And it's like, you know how helpful that would have been if I did that earlier on in like the right way, because obviously, some people don't want to share and that's fine. But now that I run my own business, I have a lot of these conversations with other small business owners, and it's so helpful to know. And also, I have lots of people that DM me asking about, you know, advice on what should my rate be and etc, etc.

And I'm like, it helps if we all talk about this, because if we all earn more, we all, you know, raise each other up, and we're supporting each other, it's better for everybody. Yeah, I think it's important to have the conversations. It's also important to respect if somebody doesn't want to have a salary conversation. But what I have found also as a small business owner is in order to make it, you need to surround yourself with a group of colleagues that will give you this information because it's not like you can walk in and there's a job description that says, oh, that's 173,000. You walk in and you're like, okay, what is the market rate? So part of it is really figuring out what the market rate is and having these conversations. And then I think the next piece

is then dealing with the feelings that typically come up when asking for that rate. You rolled your eyes. And so what ends up happening? Yeah, it's hard. It is not fun. Yeah. And the emotional part, I think, is the part that where I really can be helpful because if you look at your mindset, you identify your fears and your anxieties and then you develop strategies for coping with them during, before, during and to lift weights, you don't start with a 200 weight, you start with a 10 pound weight. And so it's very similar building up that muscle. And, and well, for the most part, I think negotiations is fun. It's certainly more fun to coach other people than do my own negotiations. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's, oh, it's, I so agree that it's like a muscle because believe me at the get go that when I was just starting out, I was terrible at it. But I was just getting my feet wet. I was just you you figure out real quick what you should and shouldn't do. And now I'm in this position where I'm like, I feel pretty good. I mean, I have to negotiate

pretty much any project I want to do with, you know, a company or an organization or speaking engage, I have to negotiate almost every single day. And so then it kind of becomes like a habit and less intimidating and scary. But when you're at the start of it, it's terrifying, but it's something that you need to practice for sure. I want to kind of switch gears a little bit because there's so many other important conversations that we need to have. Like I kind of mentioned one that really, I think struck me because I'm dealing with it now in my own personal life is talking with your parents about money, something that I think for many years, maybe in your 20s, you don't really need to talk about it. At a certain point, when you get a bit older, you need to have these conversations because you need to find out, hey, mom and dad,

do you have a will? Do you have life insurance? Where is that key for the safety deposit box? All that kind of stuff. And that, for me, has been like a very interesting, it's a delicate conversation and not easy to navigate. So for people who are in a similar situation, what are kind of those initial steps you should take? Because you obviously, you know, you want to take care of your parents and make sure everything is taken care of, but you also don't want to offend anybody. Yes.

And I really feel for you. I've gone through that with my parents as well years ago. So I understand, again, on a personal level as well as a professional level. And in my book, Breaking Money Silence, there's a whole chapter on how to do this. But I would say the first piece that a lot of us skip in having these conversations with our parents is to really look at what emotions are gonna be brought up for you. Because as our parents get older, that doesn't always feel so good.

It may not feel good for them, it may not feel good for you. And so, or it could be frustrating. You know, if your parents kind of shoot you down and it's none of your business or they avoid the conversation. So any of those feelings that we have, I think first you need to kind of understand what's typically gonna come up for me and how do I cope with those feelings? How do I get support? And then you extend a loving invitation to your parents to engage in a money

conversation. And what's important because they're your parents is that you allow them to have control, that you ask them for permission, and you try to meet them where they're at. So I'll give you an example. I worked with one woman where her dad was starting to fail. And she said, you know, I go in, I get so frustrated because I just want to be helpful, and he won't listen. And so what we worked out was a strategy. And the strategy was that he would come to dinner every Sunday night. And every Sunday night, she said, dad, can we just talk about for 10 minutes money every Sunday night when you come to dinner, and then I will drop it for the week. And so he said, okay. So every Sunday night she'd be like, can I have a copy? You know, do you have a copy of a will? Can you

bring that next Sunday? You know, do you have a utility bill? Are they being paid? Like these little, little steps. And what she did is she met her father where he was at, she made it doable, and she led with loving intent. And the only way to lead with loving intent, and you can't do it perfectly, is to process your own stuff about it and get support. And I think that's really important. And, you know, often parents will talk about money, but sometimes they won't start with the dollars and cents. So I don't know what you've started or how you've started those conversations, Jessica, but sometimes it's even just talking about talking about money. That's kind of what I'm doing with my parents

is just, yeah, talk, talking about money. Oh, actually, I think I've actually made some good progress with my parents and especially my mom. She's the main money manager, which has been great. It's more the in-laws. definitely different than the dynamics of your own parents. And it's really interesting because every family has family money messages. And we're going to end up partnered with somebody and they're not going to have identical family money messages. So that's another thing I think to factor in. And often I'll tell people, you know, start by asking your aging parents, what's one financial success you had? And what did you learn from that? Or what's one lesson you wanted to teach me as a kid? And then you start talking about that. So it's not always just about the dollars and cents. It can be about making them feel good

about their relationship with money. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's a great way to kind of open up that conversation. It's not so intimidating, I think. But I guess another kind of, you know, thing that we will all mostly most of us will probably encounter at some point in our lives is also talking about money with our partners or future partners. As someone who's I've been with my, you know, husband for, I mean, going on 14 years. So it has been an evolution, let me tell you from the get go. And still, it's not like we're perfect, believe me, my husband in general would rather never talk about money. He just it's, you know, that's his thing. He gets uncomfortable. He has his issues with money. We everyone has issues

with money. But it's, it's like you said, it's like, it really was starting small. And what we do, similar to that kind of anecdote you shared is we talk about money once a month, we have a little monthly money meeting, we put in our, you know, numbers into a spreadsheet, we talk about it that otherwise we generally I try not to bother him with it, because he doesn't like it. I could talk about it all day long, not for him. So I have those limitations. So we don't argue as much. We have those kind of, you know, ways to kind of, you know, just deal with it in our own way. But for someone, I guess, you know, I get asked a lot, you know, we're getting serious with my partner, we're going to move in together. What should we do? We've never really

talked about money. And I think a lot of people similar to like people are afraid to negotiate because they're afraid that maybe the employer will rescind my offer. What if the relationship sours once we start talking about money? What would your advice be to someone like that? Well, I will start with the end in mind. If the relationship starts to sour when we start talking about money, that may be a sign that you're not money compatible and you've saved yourself a lot of years of fighting about money. Now, with that said, like you said, couples aren't perfect about money. And often we need to engage in that conversation in a way that's going to be helpful for both partners. And so what I say is as early as you can in the relationship, start to understand

your own money personality, but also your partner's. So I also think that if couples are planning a wedding or even before planning a wedding, but planning a wedding, there are so many financial decisions you have to make. And so instead of fighting about it and saying, well, I want this and you're not agreeing or you're doing it wrong, say, well, help me understand why are you making that decision? Why is that important to you? What value are you expressing by having this, you know, open bar at the wedding versus, you know, I want to have really wonderful flowers, whatever it might be. And so I think that that's an opportunity. You can do that when you're dating. If you haven't,

you know, you're married or you're in a committed relationship, you haven't done it, it's never too late. In fact, when my husband and I got together, and we've been married like 24 years together, 30 years. And when we first got together, I didn't even know this till I did my own money work. We got engaged. I'm not kidding you, Jessica, we got engaged. And the next day, because he was horrible with money. The next day, I took him to the bank, we opened a joint account, and then I controlled it for like 14 years. Oh, wow. And then, I know, and just so unconsciously, because I was good at money. I was a former FDIC bank examiner.

You know, it just, in my mind, made sense. And he was money avoidant, so he's like, yay. Sounds good, yeah. That was all really good and well until we got ripped off from a contractor. So we put an addition on our house and we lost tens of thousands of dollars from this crooked contractor.

And as you could imagine, there was a little stress in the Kingsbury home. And what ended up happening is I dealt with it like I, you know, a type A money person that was a former bank examiner would do. And I got really anxious and really tight. And he dealt with it by playing video games and ignoring it. Right. So it came to a head one night because I was like, you've got to be kidding me. And instead of being the nagging wife, which quite honestly, I had been for a little

while there, I decided, oh, I'd get curious and have a coach-like mindset. And so he's playing this video game and I have the mortgage and I'm flipping out because I'm like, can we actually pay the mortgage? And he says to me, or I say to him, I say, Brian is his name. I said, could you please just give me one moment? And to his credit, he put down his little gamer. And I said, can you just tell me when you think you might start worrying about money? And he really thought about it. And he looked at me and he goes, you know what? I think it's when they repo the TV. I said, what? Literally, that was his answer. I said, you mean when they repossess our TV, like the cars are already gone, the mortgage is in default, it's the TV. And we started hysterically laughing. And in that moment, what we realized was, boy, we were raised very

different around money. I, you had to have 25% in your emergency fund, very conservative savers. His mother was a single mom, not a lot of money. So you just did what you could. And from that moment on, it's actually part of why I have the career I have. I started to study money psychology, but then together we started to talk about our backgrounds. So I think it's really important to understand, like with your husband, what's his background? If he's money avoidant, why? Instead of judging it, just understanding it. Sounds kind of similar to your husband, raised by a single mom and low income. So yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Well, what's interesting is over the course of time, and it's been,

I don't know, a decade since then. And we've recovered, by the way. I won't get into the, just so people sometimes worry about that. We're good. And basically what my husband and I did is we started to talk about money and manage money differently. And we managed it together, similar to you, meetings once a month. At the beginning, maybe it was once a week. And then he started participating in the financial advising meetings. And lo and behold, Jessica, he had a really valuable perspective that was helpful. So now I'm not an over saver. He's not an over spender. And we've met in the middle.

So it takes some time. But that's the hope is that you learn from each other and create your relationship with money as a couple as you want it to be. Absolutely. Yeah. The best kind of advice I was ever given is really to try to put yourself in your partner's shoes instead of coming at it just from your point of view. Try to not judge their habits or their choices because again, it's like they come from somewhere. But yeah,

like you mentioned, it is so valuable to really dig deep to find out, okay, what is your relationship with money? What is your background? Usually it comes back to the parents or the grandparents. And then you can start to piece things together. And they kind of make sense. You're like, oh, that's why you do this. This is why you do that. Like my parents are kind of, you know, classic in that. Well, maybe not super traditional, actually, because my mom is the money manager. And, you know, usually it's like, I guess, the man traditionally, but he also is very avoidant. He doesn't care about the finances at all. And but my mom is very, you know, also raised Catholic, very conservative with her money always. And also like she had,

you know, a grandpa or parents that experienced the Great Depression. And so she is very much into like money hoarding and budgeting and da da da da. My my dad is the opposite. So we always kind of talk is like if you know, God forbid, she's the first one to go where me and my sister's gonna have to rally around, give him a budget or something like that, because he just doesn't care about that kind of stuff. But it's important to understand the background. So like, why do you feel like this? Or why do you act like this? It all comes back to their parents and how they kind of dealt with money. So yeah, it's definitely the parents, it's our society, it's media, it could be our culture, our race, our gender, their generation, there's so much. And if you

get curious about your partner, that's always what I encourage people to do, to get curious. Because in that moment, when Brian was playing that video game, instead of being judgmental, I got curious. Like, when are you going to worry about money? And that curiosity can be really helpful. Do your own work. And then it's not that you have to force your partner to do the work, but get curious with that other person. And I do find that when you understand what's behind people's financial behaviors, they make a little bit more sense, or at least you can have a little bit more compassion. And then together, like I said, you get to make it up as you go along. There's no right way to do money. There's just the way you

and if you are in partnership, your partner are going to do money. Absolutely. Yeah, I like that, too. That's something that I've had to learn over the years, because lots of people have some strong opinions when it comes to money management, there is actually no right or wrong way. There's a million different ways to get to whatever your desired result is. So it is kind of important to get, you know, information and some ideas, but then you make your decision ultimately at the end. One thing I kind of want to just like kind of talk about kind of as we kind of wrap up is, you know, just for people who are still on the fence about, oh, you know, just for people who are still on the fence about, oh, I know I should be talking about money, but I really don't want to.

What are some of the possible repercussions of not breaking that money silence of just staying in your silence for a little bit longer? What could happen? Oh, there's so many repercussions. You know, it's statistically, if you look at couples that don't talk about money openly and honestly, or don't learn how to do it in the process of their relationship, it's a key contributor to divorce. If you look at families that have money to pass down to the next generation, 60% of them don't successfully do so because they aren't having these money conversations. It also can lead to betrayal, financial infidelity. And for women, as we mentioned earlier in the podcast, and men, it can lead to under-earning. So there's a lot of negatives to not up, is that when you do break money silence

and you do engage in these conversations, your intimacy in your relationship improves, your relationships with your friends improve, how you feel at work ultimately feels better, you feel valued and not resentful. And so there are a lot of upsides, but because we live in this culture of money shame and money silence, we don't actually experience the upsides that much. My guess is since you have started really talking about money, there's probably been a lot of upsides for you. I know there have been for me. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like you mentioned like the intimacy and we just feel closer. Like that is, you know, ultimately it has been so like immeasurably beneficial for our relationship you know like you mentioned um you

know a big cause of divorce is to do with money and not talking about it or financial infidelity and that was always a big fear of mine you know again being catholic you're like i'm told not to get divorced right and you know one way to to kind of you know avoid that is to talk, is to have open communication. And I'd say the only downside to that is it's a bit awkward and uncomfortable. You just need to push past that. And then you'll realize, oh, I'm so glad I did this. I'm so, so glad. It just makes everything so much easier to navigate.

And yeah, one of the great things I'd say about our relationship is the one thing we don't really argue about is money because we talk about it consistently. So there's no surprises. There's no gotchas or anything like that. Right. And also, if you're raising kids or you're role modeling to nieces and nephews, as I am, you're going to want to set you're going to want to show them how they can talk about money through your behaviors as well as your words. And I think we can change the next generation of our society if we continue to have these conversations. If you continue to have your podcast, I continue to do the work I'm doing. And everybody who's listening out there just dares to have one money conversation after this podcast

that maybe they wouldn't have had before. And I'm talking five, 10 minutes. I'm not talking three hour conversation. We can ultimately change the world. And I know that's a lofty goal, but that's what I'm up to. Yeah, that's what you're doing. And that's why I love it. I signed up to your email list to get the, cause you have this thing where it's like 52 kind of ways to start conversation. So before I let you go, I know you've got so many great resources on your website about, you know, breaking money silence and negotiating fees, conquering your fear of negotiating. Do you want to kind of share a little bit more about some things that people can find if they were to look you up or go on your website to help them out on this journey?

Sure. If you go to breakingmoneysilence.com, you'll actually see the free campaign. You sign up and you get one small money talk tip a week for an entire year. I love that campaign. I think it's really useful. I encourage everybody to do it. If you're interested in learning more about negotiation and the psychology of negotiation, you can go to courses.breakingmoneysilence.com.

There's free courses. There's master courses. In fact, I'm starting a master class now for a small group of eight women that I'm really excited about. And there's a couple of openings left. And then if you want to check out my book, you can go to, you know, Amazon or any bookstore. And I've said it a few times, but I'll say it again. It's called Breaking Money Silence. Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Kathleen, for being on the show. It was such a pleasure to have you on and to discuss this topic that I'm so passionate about in depth. So thanks so much. Yeah, I've loved the conversation.

Thank you. And that was episode 297 with Kathleen Burns Kingsbury. Make sure to check her out at her website, BreakingMoneySilence.com. You can also follow her on Twitter at KBK Speaks. You can also follow her on Instagram at Kathleen Burns Kingsbury. I will include everything in the show notes. So it'll be very easy for you to find all this information, including, you know, how to get her book and also how to enter the contest to win her book. Just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 297 for all of that helpful information. Okay, so since I mentioned I'm giving away her book, I also I'm going to give away a copy of all the books that are featured on this season of the show as I always do. So if you go

to JessicaMoorhouse.com slash contests, that is where you will find the big book giveaway of all the different books. I will update that page as new guests on this, you know, come on the show and have a book that I want to feature and give away. So make sure to always check in. Another great way to kind of always stay in the loop is to get onto my email list. If you go to jessicamorehouse.com slash subscribe, that is how you can do it. Another thing I will let you know about that you may not know about, and I actually just did a little revamp of it, which I'm really proud about is I have a free resource library. So I have a bunch of, you know, guides and worksheets and cheat sheets and spreadsheets, all for free. So if you go to

JessicaMoorhouse.com slash resources, you can, you know, sign up for an account and access all my freebies for free, hence the freebies. So you can check that out if you like. And just as a reminder, because I did you know mention a little while ago at the beginning of this episode I am on Instagram so make sure to follow me my this is why I'm telling you this because you're like why do you keep on talking about this because I have on my goals list on my little vision board to get to 10,000 Instagram followers by the end of the year and well we're we're getting close to the end of the year and I don't have it and I really want to check that off my list so if you't have it. And I really want to check

that off my list. So if you'd help a friend, your friend, Jessica, make sure to go to at Jessica I. Morehouse on Instagram and follow me, please. I promise I'll make it worth your while. I do lots of Instagram AMAs where you can ask me whatever the heck you want. You're usually on a certain topic or whatever. You try to do this every single Tuesday. You know, I'm doing a little bit more Instagram lives. I did one not too long ago with Liquid Independence. Obviously, that's not his real name. But you know, he's the Freedom35 blog. I've known him for gosh, as long as I've been blogging, like at least a decade, which is crazy. And Bob Lay from TalkHand was also on the IG live and it was a lot of fun. So I'm probably

going to do more of those because why not? I have a good time. And also I'm doing more Instagram reels because honestly, this girl doesn't know how to take a photo. She like her life depended on it. Believe me, I try my best. Thank goodness. I do have some skills in the video department so I can make Instagram reels and actually throw a lot of fun. I try. I don't know about you, if you're like on TikTok or Instagram reels or whatever, but I always try to make them have a lot of fun, show my husband. He does not understand. He does not get what, he doesn't get it. He's like, what is this? Why is this funny? I don't understand. So it's just me alone in my house making Instagram reels, hoping someone other than my husband will

understand them. So make sure to follow me on Instagram. And lastly, just to remind you, if you want to find more information about my investing course, Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians, I've linked to it in the show notes for this episode at jessicamorehouse.com slash 296, no, 297, sorry, 297. And also you can find it at jessicamorehouse.com slash WBB or just go to the shop page. Actually, I'll, I'll direct you to my shop page. That is where you can find, um, all of the different budget spreadsheets I offer my course, also some merch. You may not know, but I have some merch. I have a fun mug, some hats, some shirts that I think are really good because honestly, whenever I wear the hat or their shirts outdoors, I always get questions about them. Always just like, Oh my

God, where'd you get that hat or that shirt? And, uh And it's kind of fun to be like, I made it myself. So if you go to jessicamarass.com slash shop, you can find more information about that. I also want to give a big old shout out to my podcast editor, Matt Rideout. Okay, that is it for me. Thank you so much for listening. I will be back here next Wednesday with a fresh new episode. So I will see you then. Have a good rest of your week, weekend. And if you're wondering, since I talked about it in the last episode, how is the house hunting going? It's going. We don't have a house yet. So nothing to really update you besides the stress and anxiety of house hunting. It's not fun. I'm not having a good time. I cannot wait to update you telling you that we have found a place to live. But so far, it's looking a lot more like, well, we're going to stay in an Airbnb for a little bit

at the end of November and December, and then going to be in my parents' place in December for Christmas time. And gosh, I hope we find another place to live after. Otherwise, I might just be living in my parents' basement. So that's what's new with me. So yeah, thanks for sticking around for that little bit. Okay, that's it. That's it. So yeah, thanks for sticking around for that little bit. Okay, that's it. That's it. I'm going to leave you there. Thanks again. We'll see you here next Wednesday. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.