More Money Podcast - 325 What to Know Before Investing in Canadian Fine Art - Rob Cowley, President and Co-Founder of Cowley Abbott

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

This season on the podcast we’ve been exploring alternative ways to invest your money and in this episode, we’re diving into the Canadian art world. To help navigate how to invest in art is Rob Cowley, a Canadian Art Specialist and the President and Co-Founder of Cowley Abbott.  Rob Cowley is a Canadian Art Specialist who first started as a clerk at an auction house in Toronto in 2000. In 2013, Rob and his coworker Lydia Abbott set out on their own and founded the auction house, Cowley Abbott. Cowley Abbott bridges the gap between traditional art auction services and the online fine art marketplace. Cowley Abbott’s live and online auctions have included headline-grabbing and record-setting works while providing Canadians with the expertise they need when it comes to purchasing art. In this episode, Rob shares how the pandemic caused a boom in the Canadian fine art market. He also answers my many questions about how this sort of investment works in terms of depreciation and the other costs involved in buying art. Rob also gives a great explanation about what exactly NFTs are and how they protect and benefit digital artists. This episode is full of great insider knowledge on the art world and how its become more accessible to newbie art investors, which is great news for anyone looking into alternative investments! For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/325 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, Lulu, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 325 of the show. And I have been waiting so long to air this episode. I loved recording it, so I know you're going to love it. So you know, this season, I've been kind of diving into a few new topics, and especially wanted to dive into, especially because I talk a lot about investing on the show. How can you invest in things that are other than index funds? You know, I'm a boring old passive index investor. Will always be that and love it. However, there are alternative investments. Also, I wanted to not just talk about what you see online,

which is NFTs and crypto. There's alternative investments that aren't just, you know, those two things, such as, for example, if you're a longtime listener or just listener of this season of the show, you'll remember episode 316, where I had Atul Tiwari on the show to talk about how to invest in fine wines, which I thought was really interesting. Well, for this episode, kind of along the same lines, I have a wonderful guest, Rob Cowley, on the show to talk about how to invest in fine art, something that I aspire to invest in myself one day. Not sure if it'll happen, but when I see myself as like an old, older lady who, you know, has a bunch of dogs, no kids, and hopefully some money in the bank,

I also see myself maybe investing in a painting or two. I don't know. I don't know. It's just a dream because quite honestly, everything that is in my home that is quote unquote art has been, I mean, gosh, some of the stuff that I got on Wayfair, some of the stuff that I got from, you know, they're just postcards that I cut up of, you know, famous paintings, but really, they're just postcards. Yeah, I don't own anything of substance, let me tell you, I've got some work to do. And so anyways, I'm so excited to dive into this topic, because I think a lot of us and this is also Canadian specific, which I think is really interesting. A lot of us don't really know besides maybe, you know, watching, you know,

shows about this or something like that. And so, like I mentioned, I have Rob Cowley on the show. He's a Canadian art specialist and the president and co-founder of Cowley Abbott. And Cowley Abbott bridges the gap between traditional art auction services and the online fine art marketplace. And since its inception in 2013, Cowley Abbott's live and online auctions have included headline grabbing and record setting works. But, you know, more interestingly enough, we talk in the show about how does one actually purchase fine art? And a lot of it has changed because the past few years in COVID. It's actually really interesting to learn how to do it in, you know, online. And so you're gonna love this episode because I

loved recording it. But before I get to that interview with Rob, here's just a few words I would like to share about this podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the more money podcast is supported by the Globe and Mail. Now you may not know this about me, but my interest in personal finance actually started all the way back in high school. You see, whenever I finished school, I'd take a bus to my part-time job at a fast food chain, and I'd always get there about 20 minutes before my shift. So to kill time, I would browse through the latest issue of the Globe and Mail that would always be in the break room. And guess what turned out to be my favorite section? Unsurprisingly, the report on business section. Who knew that

that early introduction into the world of finance would eventually lead me to a career centered on financial literacy? Needless to say, I've been a loyal Globe and Mail reader ever since. And that's because even though I've been creating personal finance content for over a decade now, I am always learning something new. And I especially always want to stay on top of the latest business and investing news, market data and analysis. And honestly, I just love reading anything Globe columnist Rob Carrick writes. Want to invest in yourself and start a new morning ritual of reading the Globe and Mail like I do? Well, lucky for you, the Globe is offering listeners of the More Money podcast a special digital subscription rate for unrestricted access

to everything on globeandmail.com. Visit tgam.ca slash Jessica to get started. Once again, visit tgam.ca slash Jessica to take advantage of this limited time offer. Welcome Rob to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thanks so much, Jessica. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm very excited because I've never had any guest on the show to talk about this topic. And I feel like because the idea of investing in alternative investments is becoming a lot more, it's getting a lot more attention. I wanted to have someone on the show to talk about an alternative that isn't so crazy. You know, like I kind of mentioned before I hit the record

button, it's like, I think a lot of people focus so much on like, oh, cryptocurrency and things like that. It's like, you know, there's, there's lots of other alternatives of things that are tangible things like art. And so that's why I'm really excited to have you on the show to discuss this. But before we kind of get going, I'm so curious, how does one get into the art dealing world? So you're a Canadian art specialist and the president and co-founder of Cowley Abbott. How did this, uh, how do you get into that? It's funny. Um, my fine art degree, um, was actually in theater. And so I, in the late nineties, I graduated with a theater degree and then I didn't, you know, as many theater graduates, um, can attest to, I ended up anywhere, but I was doing other things. And it was actually when I

moved to Toronto from Ottawa, we, I was with an agency trying to find, just trying to find a job. And one day, and this is going to date it this much. I remember calling the agents, getting a voicemail on a, on a payphone atters. None of those things exist anymore. And then following up with the agency and them saying, do you want to try an auction house? And I said, sure. And so I worked at a, I got a job at a Toronto auction house just as a clerk, just in the accounts office. And that company merged with one of the biggest Canadian art auction houses in the country at the time. And they made me the administrator. I knew nothing about Canadian art at all. And, and, but it was funny, my background in theater meant that one day the president, Jeff Joyner said,

do you want to try being the auctioneer? And so I said, sure, that sounds great. And I was, I mean, I was very, I mean, art history, you know, graduates hate to hear this, fine art history, graduates hate to hear this, any of these stories. But I just pretty much learned on the job. I did some courses as well, a lot of reading and a lot of just hands on and very lucky to work with leading professionals in the industry. And so that was 2000. I started at that auction house. Um, and then in 2013, Lydia Abbott and I, who both worked at that auction house and the Canadian art department, um, we left to form Cowley Abbott. Um, and we've also changed quite a bit. I mean, we started out just online, so we did only online auctions, including the catalog sales and then moved to live auctions, you know,

just in time for four years later to have the pandemic. And, and yeah, so it's been, it's very much been a lot of the training and a lot of the, the experience has been very much involved in being hands-on. A lot of my colleagues, you know, Lydia has her master's in art history, as does many of our specialists, which of course is a huge asset coming into it. But it's amazing how much of our work is also, you know, administrative and really client-facing customer service as well. Interesting. So yeah, I want to kind of start with who is buying fine art. I think when we typically think about that, we think about the movies and we think of these ultra billionaires that are just throwing around their money and buying art and then forget that they have like a whole room full of art or what have you. But it seems like there's different price points and I'm sure lots of different types of customers. So who is

kind of like the main demographic for investing in fine art? It's actually, it's become pretty wide. It's certainly, you know, in the past 20 plus years I've been in the industry, there certainly was a contingent now and talking more about the high end of Canadian, like blue chip Canadian artists and looking at values beyond, you know, $1,500,000. A lot of that audience was, you know, obviously had a certain level of wealth and were professionals at a certain level. More often, I mean, and were, you know, often left and white. And, but in. But it's funny. But then beyond that, of course, our market, what grabs headlines, what we talk about a lot with the press, of course, is always the paintings that are selling for between $100,000 and $2 million. And that tends to be where a lot of the focus is when the media and when the world is talking about the auction world and the art world.

But then so much more of the volume of what we do is actually artwork under $50,000. And a lot of it's under $20,000. And that's continued today in online sales. And that audience is pretty much everyone. And that's one aspect that we're always... One aspect for me, I mean, my own experience getting into the art world was the apprehension around it,

was feeling like an outsider, feeling like you don't know. if you don't know what you're talking about, will you feel foolish? And it was interesting for me learning and having even imposter syndrome early on because feeling like there's so much to learn and so much you don't know, which is the same, of course, in any investment area really is that, you know, if you don't know anything at all going into it, you'll feel that, hopefully, if you're being, you know, somewhat responsible. And so, really, the audience is huge. And it's really an expanded, we've, during the pandemic, the, you know, the individuals who are buying art online and paying, you know, anywhere from a couple of thousand dollars with us up to $20,000. It's everyone. You find it's all different cultures, which is helped by the fact that we also sell many different types

of art. Incomes, a wide range of incomes as well. And age as well, you're finding more and more, you do have collectors that are in their 30s and 40s, whereas it used to be, when I started, it was 50 and up. And now a lot of those collectors are 70 and up, and they're still actively collecting and still playing a large role in what we do. But it has expanded over time. And part of it, I think, is also the online aspect. The online aspect has really helped. The internet has become a huge tool, not only for seasoned collectors, but also for new collectors, because you can do so much of your research and so much of your writing. And with that, the industry has also moved along a great deal and become much more informative. We believe much more in education now than I feel

like we did when I started. It did get the feeling when I started that it was more of an industry of, you know, if you wrote an essay for a group of seven painting and said, you know, Lauren Harris was a member of the group of seven, people within the industry would say, well, why would you say that people know that if someone's bidding on this, they should know that. Whereas now it's different. Now we, you know, now you're telling a story with the major artworks that you sell and you're trying to educate as much as you can, which I think has made the industry a lot healthier. And it's also been more, become a bit more inviting than it once was. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely a, I feel like the tone

that I've been seeing. I'm curious, have you seen like a big, you kind of mentioned this, a big jump in people interested in buying art because of the pandemic? Do you think part of it is because they just have a lot more time, maybe more disposable income, but also a lot of us are just stuck at our houses and we're all focused on redecorating? Completely. The pandemic has been our best two years as a company have been during the pandemic. Well, that's good. Not many businesses can say that. And even in the art industry,

you almost feel bad to say it sometimes because brick and mortar retail galleries and other types of businesses that don't have an online presence, they had challenges throughout the pandemic. Whereas we were lucky. I mean, as much as, you know, we, you know, we work very hard at what we do, you know, our industry, we also were very fortunate. We were online and we were doing online sales in 2004, 2005. So, I mean, even when Amazon was in its infancy and people, but it was at a time when we first started online, it was at a time when,

you know, most people weren't comfortable banking online at that time they were and also smartphones did not exist and neither did tablets and so people were stuck with their home pcs and technology was different for everyone the internet was not really the speed differences between one client to the next were astronomical sometimes you know some people had AOL CD where they had dial-up and other people had cable as it came along. Whereas now you find the playing field is so even when it comes to technology and also importantly, to comfort and experience online.

And I think that has been a huge factor for so much of what's happened online during the pandemic. And so to circle back, it's been a huge change during the pandemic. And so to circle back, it's been a huge change during the pandemic. Typically in our online sales that we hold monthly, where works can be anywhere from sometimes $500 up to $20,000. With those sales, given the volume of work that we offer, we might sell 70%, 75% in a good sale. We regularly now 80 to 90% every single sale since the pandemic began. And our live auctions, quote unquote, some have been just online, you know, transmissions with

online bidding and things like that. Those have been stronger than ever. And so there's been a big change. And you do find, exactly as you mentioned, you find that the collectors who have been always collecting from us, seasoned collectors, a lot of them are not only have a big change. And you do find exactly as you mentioned, you find that the collectors who have been always collecting from us, these collectors, a lot of them are not only have their lives changed in that they aren't investing in experience right now because they can't go anywhere up until, you know, very recently. And also their work, they're not traveling. They're not so many of our clients, you know, I've said a few times to people that there's clients that I've known for 20 years who collect really actively, but I may have a conversation with them once every six months for 10 minutes.

They call the day of an auction and they say, tell me something about these three works. We have a quick conversation. I say, OK, here's my bids for those. Talk to you later. And you don't then their people deal with us to pick up the paintings if they buy them and we move on from there. We're talking to those people all the time right now because they're home. A lot of them are home. Their jobs, their work has changed. Their investment in other areas has changed drastically in a lot of cases. And as we know in Canada, a lot of people have not been hurting financially. A lot of people have, but there are

people who've been unaffected and are spending less and so have been looking towards the art world. And outside of the investment aspect as well, what is great to see, what we love to see as well is that so many collectors who we know very well have re-engaged with their passion of collecting in a really, really active way, whereas it was something they didn't have time for before, which I think is the story of the pandemic for a lot of people is getting back to, you know, bike riding or getting back to hiking or getting back to those things. And even just spending time with their family, things like that. But are the art collecting aspect has come along with that too. So it's, we've noticed huge changes and I think it's going to change the art world. We're going to see a lot of changes in the art world that are going to carry forward beyond the

pandemic that have changed our industry greatly. Absolutely. I'm curious, because it seems like there's more demand for art. How has that affected just like the inventory? Is it, has that actually been like, oh, there's not more inventory? Or is it, you know, art, I guess there's newer artists, but then there's older artists that, you know, are dead. And so they can't make any more art. Like what's kind of the supply demand situation like? Well, we've been very lucky because the market has been strong and because prices have been strong and it's been so active. You're absolutely right. The other side is supply, is consignments. Consignments have been very, very active. We've had, you know, we've had record setting artworks

consigned to us during a pandemic, which I never would have guessed would've had, you know, we've had record setting artworks consigned to us during a pandemic, which I never would have guessed would have happened. You know, we had a major work by, you know, the color field artist, Jack Bush, that was consigned to us in the middle of the pandemic, the first in 2020, the first summer of the pandemic when we weren't even being vaccinated at that point. And we sold that painting for, you know, a record price just under $900,000, you know, to act to a hungry market. And so you're finding that because the market is showing such strength and also on top of that, back to our clients having so much time, they're looking around their homes. So clients who are buying are also looking at the artwork they have and deciding, you know, I don't, I've been meaning to sell this for so many years. Maybe I'll do it now

because the market's good. And it's also, I have, I have the opportunity for this project. And then on top of that, you have clients who, you know, the other major aspect of consignments are clients who have nothing to do with the art world, who may inherit a painting or maybe dealing with an estate within their family. And they have also had the opportunity and the time to deal with these things. And so we have been busier than we've ever been. We have actually, again, you almost feel bad saying it, we've hired, you know, we've hired three people during the pandemic just because the load of work that's come upon us through consignments and through the number of auctions has risen greatly. And that's a huge part because typically if there's a recession, like we experienced in 2008, the difficulty becomes consignments. Buyers will buy. If the

right work comes along and it's something rare and something they can't live without, they will buy. And records are often set on an individual artwork during a recession. But what often happens is that the collectors who own the artworks, they hold on because they think this is not a favorable market. It seems like a risk. I'm going to wait. That hasn't happened during the pandemic. Interesting. Yeah, because one of my questions was looking, especially for someone who wants to maybe diversify their portfolio in an alternative like art, what are some of the risks involved? Doing my own research, obviously, liquidity can be a risk. Right now, that doesn't seem to be an issue. But then you mentioned, you've been doing this for a long time. Has there been times where you're like, it's been very difficult, like there hasn't

been much liquidity because it isn't tied to the stock market. It's its own market. Can you kind of, you know, share some of your experiences, like historically how it's changed over time? Yeah, I mean, it's funny because it can be so dependent upon the quality and the rarity of what you're buying. And a lot of that comes just like it would in any other investment area. You know, we recommend reading and we recommend getting as much experience as you can before you bid and speaking to professionals. I mean, it's, it doesn't have to be the auction house that can be a gallery you trust and, and really getting into, and on top of that, which we always talk about, and sometimes people roll

their eyes, but finding what you like, you know, because the, what's different about collecting art and investing in art, of course, is that it's something you can live with that beautifies your environment. But it should be something you like, because you find over the years, I have found that collectors that are just trying to make money like any like in any other world tends to fall short because they buy names. They buy, you know, they try to buy works by the group of seven and it may be not the best example. It could be a late example by one of the artists that they spend well beyond the estimate. So if we have an estimate of $15,000 to $20,000, they buy it for $40,000.

That's a work they're gonna have to hold onto because if you're looking at A.Y. Jackson, let's say, he was very prolific. He painted a lot of work. He painted a lot of work late in his life. And so what you've purchased may not be may not have great rarity. And so if you overpaid, if you paid well beyond the estimate, then, you know, the immediate future, you're not going to be able to part with it and get and get your investment back. It may happen over time, but we find even now that during the 2000s, the 2000s was this incredible market, mostly focused upon historical Canadian art. So the Group of Seven and the Beaver Hall Group of Painters, and then slowly it moved into more contemporary and post-war art in terms of interest.

But there was a lot of clients during that time who spent a lot of money on works well beyond estimate that even now they come back to us and we say we're not quite there. You know, we can try it. If you paid $60,000 for something, we may say, well, it's probably $30,000 to $50,000 or $40,000 to $60,000. So the most highest protective reserve you could have is $40,000. Now, in this market, you might exceed it, but there is risk involved in that. So when you're investing, I mean, it really comes down to, you know, really educating

yourself and finding what you like. And a reputable auction house or gallery is not going to pressure you. We want long-term clients and we want clients to be satisfied. We want collections that we can walk into and see that there's a passion behind it. Doing the work and really educating yourself, finding what you like, and also setting limits for yourself. You know, as much as it, you know, as the owner of an auction house, I'm delighted to see people, you know, go and go and go when it comes to bidding. We also don't want to see

regret, you know, and, and now sometimes people, you know, people will set a limit three times the estimate because they know it's an important painting and they, and, you know, they're successful and they get the painting and they have no plan to part with the painting for 15 or 20 years and maybe their children will. And in that case, great. But in terms of investment, that's where it has to be careful because it's easy as well with auction to get caught up and to set a limit to tell yourself,

I'm only gonna spend to the top of the estimate. If it's 15 to 20,000, 20,000. And then they buy it for 35, which again, if it's 15 to 20 000 20 000 and then they buy it for 35 which again if it's if it's for enjoyment and it's and it's so you know you were just you wanted that artwork and it was special to you um that's great and that's and that's the market value i mean that's that's the thing about an auction is that you're bidding in an open market with other other collectors who are bidding against you and they're setting what the value is for the work at that

time but it's also just been exposed to the market And so for it to be exposed again to the market, it'll need some time before it can come back and get that kind of freshness to the market again, and hopefully engage collectors that didn't see it the first time, and maybe even the collectors that did see it the first time. So a lot of factors like that involved. Yeah, so it sounds like and this is kind of what I've read, too, is that when it comes to art, it is a very long term investment.. I mean, certain pieces will always appreciate in value just because of the artist involved in the demand for and the rarity of the piece. But in general, if you want to buy art, how long should you be keeping that piece? And this is more if you're an investor and you want to see the value appreciate, not

so much on the side that you just want to hold on to this painting because it means something to you. Like, how long are we talking a decade a couple decades i would say safely a decade for most works and that's especially if you're buying if you're purchasing the work um at a value that is kind of within the estimate or where the market is and not well beyond it um but sometimes it can be 15 or 20 years and And sometimes it can be five. It does happen. Maude Lewis, you know, the East Coast folk artist, there was a movie with Sally Hawkins and Ethan Hawke in 2016. Her works since I started in the industry have gone from being between $5,000 and $7,000 to regularly over $40,000 in the past five years. And that has now become a trend. For a while,

it was in 2016, just after the movie was released, we sold one of our paintings, a painting of three cats, which is very, very common for her subject that she created over and over. We sold them for just $140,000. And I remember thinking, this is the movie. Yeah, totally. And then in the fall, we sold a couple for $25,000, which was still strong, but not quite as strong. And now since then, the movie is out of most people's minds. You know, it's on Netflix or wherever it is, but it's continuing. We just sold a work online last week for, I think, just over $30,000.

And now we estimate them much higher. We estimate them. And that has become a trend. And if somebody purchased a Mod Louis six or seven years ago and they sold them right now, they would make money. And so sometimes it can be dependent on that. It can be dependent on an artist or a school or just a certain type of art suddenly becoming, there being a renewed popularity and a demand for them. And what's also happened with the auction world is, you know, the change, a big change in the auction world, as well as become private sales. And we recently hired Peter Roller, who's a veteran in the industry, and he handles private sales for us. And we keep track of what everyone has purchased. And sometimes we'll get a collector that'll come along and say, I really want a work by A.J. Kasson, and this is what I want. And we'll look through our database

and find the individuals who've purchased those works in the past 10 years. And sometimes the client can be looking at a profit of 20, 30, 40 percent because someone is looking for it. So I think there's that too. I mean, it's also being familiar. And if you're working with professionals like auction houses and galleries as well, and they know your collection, then there's always those opportunities as well, trading privately as well as the auction world. Trading privately is great as well because the exposure is less. There's less exposure for the artwork. And so buying something privately sometimes even from an auction house or from a gallery, there's pluses to that as well because the exposure is lower. So if you were to bring that to auction five or six years after you

purchase it from a gallery, you know, the exposure aspect is maybe a little bit less than it would if you bought it at auction. Interesting. So I'm curious, you know, we always hear, like you kind of mentioned, like what's usually splashed in the media is the paintings that go for, you know, a ton of money. And you're just like, wow, this is insane. But, you know, there's probably a lot of art that depreciates. Is it really the depreciation just to do with just, you know, market demand? It's not there. Or it could be, you know, you discover something about the artist that kind of taints the history of that artist or something like that.

What's your experience been with art that was popular and then depreciates and then hasn't maybe recovered in terms of its value? It tends to be what's in fashion. And that can be tied to a few of the kind of factors that you just mentioned. What you're finding now, like one area that we find doesn't have quite the strength that it did, you know, 20 years ago is 19th century. 19th century Canadian art, which often, you know, we have a lot of watercolor artists in there. A lot of that art, you know, when collecting began in Canada, a lot of what was collected and what was sold in galleries, like in the early 20th century was artwork that was that that depict

that was similar to the artwork from where a lot of white Canadians settled from so English and Irish and Scottish and you know and just European art was what was very popular in Canada because that's where we were settling from and we were looking for art that reminded us of home and where we came from essentially. And what, you know, why we pay so much, why we celebrate the group of seven is the fact that they were part of the movement that broke from that.

They were part of the movement. They weren't the only ones, but they were the most celebrated of the associations in Canada, where we started to depict the land where we were, where we are. And so we started to, and it took a long time for Canadians to move to that, to suddenly celebrate ourselves and suddenly want, you know, an image of, you know, Algoma instead of, you know, instead of a pasture in Ireland. And so that area, the 19th century,

you find there's a great deal of that. There's a great deal of that style of work is, has become, I think, dated for some collectors. What's also happened practically for 19th century art is that we have a lot of collectors who are, continue to pay attention to the market, who have huge collections of 19th century art. Some of the best examples that we can, that you can find, they don't have space. Practically, a lot of clients are downsizing. And so they don't have space for... Now, if something rare and important comes along,

and during the pandemic works by artists like Cornelius Krieghoff and Frederick Arthur Werner and Frederick Bell Smith, there's been high price points for those artists, 19th century painters, but they were highly prolific. So there's been a lot of other work by those artists that have sold with an estimate or below estimate because the demand's not the same. So it tends to be fashion. And that tends to drive and collector activity. I mean, and fashion is part of that, is that if it's not in fashion, there's less activity.

So work may sell for a single bit or it may not sell at all. And then, you know, we have online price databases, which collectors use and that we use as well. So you can see that trend. You can go back and look and see,

you know, works by Cornelius Krieghoff, certain works are not, have not been selling to advantage lately. So it's often fashion tends to be the primary driver. Do some of those things like, will you see, you know, maybe 19th century paintings, like, become popular again? Or are some, you know, trends, they never kind of come back?

You do. And I mean, it's funny. Like I said, like, during the pandemic, actually, we've had, I think actually the record for Cornelius Krieghoff was set, the auction record was achieved just in the past 18 months with another auction house. So there is still the interest. And it was, I believe, you know, we've sold works by 19th century artists where we've had new collectors interested. So there still is an interest. And what you're finding during the pandemic, one thing that, you know, has, I think, contributed to the health of the art market is that the market is still, although it's very active,

it's still selective. It's not just, people aren't just buying names. They're not just, for the most part, they're not just jumping towards, you know, just anything. They're waiting for the right examples. They're waiting for works that they really are interested in. And so with that, there have been examples of 19th century works that have done well. But, you know, we do live auctions where the works tend to be $5,000 and up into the millions.

But then our online sales that are every month, those values are anywhere from $500 up to $20,000, sometimes a bit beyond. There's a great deal of 19th century work that's trading in our online sales at values that you can't believe compared to 20 years ago how much lower they are. So many of those artists were also highly prolific, and so that plays a role too. What do you see now as the

trend? What are people most interested in currently? It really comes down to quality and rarity. Like it's interesting, because I've gone through in the last 20 years, I've gone through this period, I've witnessed these periods of where when I first started, it was heavy into historical in the early 2000s. So it was the group of seven and 19th century and Beaver hall and then Canadian group of painters. And then in the later two thousands, right before the market,

the market correction, we started to see real excitement around post-war Canadian art. So a lot of abstract abstraction. So painters 11, the plasticien, the automatist in Quebec. There were always certain artists like Jean-Paul Riopelle that were always post-war artists that were always popular in Canada, always set records, but it became a much wider field. And then when we got into kind of the

2010s, there was more and more contemporary art entering the market. That's been a bit more controlled. It's not as active as it is in the US and overseas. You see less emerging and active artists at auction in Canada, but there are some. And Kim Dorland is a great example of an artist who, you know, we set a record for one of his works to just over $60,000 last year. And he is also highly active and more active in galleries. And so what you're finding right now is that it's been great to see in a way because it's a really wide market in terms of interest. So you have like 102, almost 200 years of Canadian, uh, Canadian art, and there's interest in pockets everywhere. Um, there's still interest centrally in the group of seven. Um, they continue to, we continue to see

very, very strong prices and that interest has, interest has returned, I think, even more so during the pandemic. And then also a great deal of post-war art. Jack Bush's market, who I just mentioned a few minutes ago. When I first started the record for a Jack Bush painting in 2002, I think was $60,000. And now it's just under $900,000 in 20 years. And his works, and regularly his works, exceed $300,000 and $400,000. Jean-Paul Riopelle's works, you know, 20 years ago

were, I think, just breaking a million, getting into $2 and $3 million. Now the record's over $7 million. And then Lauren Harris of the Group of Seven, the record for a painting by Lauren Harris in 2002 was $2.2 million. Um, and now it's 11. Wow. So you can see, and those, those blue chip artists that have always kind of been central to the market, even going back to the sixties and seventies and eighties, um, you

find many of those artists are still the blue chip Canadian artists like, you know, Emily Carr and Tom Thompson. And now Alex Colville is kind of a newer artist, newer in terms of exceeding the million dollar mark. But it's a fairly balanced market. And you're finding what's really exciting about the market now is that every season can be different in terms of the record setting artists that we see. You know, you could have a record for a post-war work one season and the next season, it's a record for historical work that was created 70 years earlier. Interesting. Another question I had i had was you know we talked a lot about the cost of an artwork but there's obviously other costs you know compared to like if you're to trade a stock

you know you have your commission maybe there's a maintenance fee with your discount brokerage things like that what are some other costs involved if you want to buy art because i suppose too if you're buying art you have do you to store it yourself? Or do sometimes these investors have facilitators that store it for them? What's that kind of look like once you buy a piece of art? It's a mix. If you're buying at auction, the number one fee and really the only central fee is buyer's premium. So every auction house in the world charges a percentage on top of that, what we call the hammer price. So in the room, when the auctioneer brings down the hammer, that's the hammer price. And then a percentage is added to that. With us, it's 20%. We're one of the

lower premiums in the industry. Now from there, and then of course, applicable tax. But from there, it's really, it depends on the collector. If it's going to your home and it's of considerable value, then you may need insurance and you likely will need additional insurance. And you probably want to have that provided by an insurance provider that specializes in art, understands art, asks the right questions and understands the value of art.

Storage is a great point. We do have many collectors who have, you know, parts of their collection or sometimes their whole collection, um, in storage. Um, and there is, there is organizations across Canada and globally that deal in that, that, you know, that store it in temperature controlled areas and can move in and out for you and can, you know, hang it. Installation costs are there. There's, you know, companies that can bring the art into your home and hang it for you. Um, but if you're buying an auction, it's mainly that. You're paying a buyer's premium,

and then you have to look at what the cost might be in terms of if you, you know, if you're buying from an auction house in Toronto and you're in Vancouver, the shipping, which auction houses can assist with. And most of those fees are actually quite reasonable for the most part. But yeah, insurance is big. It's amazing how many times a collector will buy something and then say, how does it work with insurance? And it's, you know, you have to talk to your provider and yeah, it can be for sure. But those are the main fees that are involved. And then, you know, aspects like ensuring that you're keeping up with having it appraised regularly so that your insurance is up to date, you know, and things like that. But for the, but there isn't a great, there isn't a laundry list really of additional fees.

But it's important also when you're going into, you know, talking to an auction house and to speak to a professional who can provide you with all those things. And you can get quotes and you can learn all that part too. And even just for, you know, people that are buying at auction, we often have to tell them that make sure whatever your limit is, you're adding 30%. You know, you're paying 20 plus 13 or 5. That could be a lot of money. It can. I'm just thinking of 20% on something that's like several hundred thousand dollars. I'm like, yeah, that's a lot of money.

I'm curious too because you mentioned it's important to maybe work with a professional. Do most people just work with an auction house or do they usually have their own independent agent or something that helps them determine what the price is and all that kind of stuff? I can't imagine a lot of people that have this kind of money to throw around to some of these pieces are just going in solo and just bidding on their own. It's a mix. You do have clients that now and sometimes we don't know. I mean, it's funny because some clients are very open with us about discussion about what they're interested in. Some clients keep their cards to their chest because obviously we are the ones selling the art. And so they would rather keep their plans and discussions to themselves. We're always happy

to see someone that has an advisor or that asks a lot of questions or that... I mean, for us, again, we're looking for the collector to be satisfied with their purchase. And so we're happy we can speak. And we preview more than most auction houses before an auction. So when we do a live auction, we'll have previewing for four weeks in the gallery. And so collectors can come in at their leisure. They can come in more than once. They can come back with their partner and, you know, talk.

And we have that happen. And more and more, you find that. You find that collectors want to spend a lot more time. And the industry used to be, when I first started, you put a sale together for six months, produce a catalog, and you preview it for three days, which is chaos. It's just a room full of collectors, everybody looking at different works, and there's only four or five of us, so you don't get to speak to everyone. So collectors are not getting the full, not always having questions answered.

But it's a real mix. We have collectors who do have advisors. We have collectors that work with galleries as well as auction houses. You know, we have cases where a collector will come into the gallery, take a look at something themselves. Then their conservator may contact us and say, can I get a copy of a condition report? Can I, can I come in to see it? If they have an advisor, the advisor may discuss the artwork with us as well.

The advisor may bid for them as well. There's also that opportunity. So it's a real mix. And I mean, I know certainly our company and most reputable auction firms and galleries can give you direction on that too. Can say, you know, if you're looking to talk to someone about this particular artist, or you're looking to collect actively, then you could talk to these people or, you know, and it's really, we really do recommend collectors, you know could talk to these people or, you know, it's, and it's really, we really do recommend collectors, you know, go to auction previews, obviously pandemic pending, um, to public event pending, go to auctions and go to previews and get the catalogs as much as you can and go to public exhibitions and go to galleries and really train your eye, but also get yourself, immerse yourself a little bit so that you really get a comfort with it.

And we really see how rewarding that is for collectors over time where they get that comfort and then they're bidding with confidence and they know the right questions and they end up with collections that they're quite happy with. Many times new collectors, their first purchases end up being the first works

they sell 10 years later because they look back and they go, it doesn't really fit my collection. I didn't really know what I was doing and I thought I liked it, but I didn't. But it changes for sure. Interesting. Okay. The last thing I kind of want to talk about is, of course, we can't talk about art without talking about NFTs because I feel like that was

when they first started. I feel like being talked about was in the context of the art world. What's it kind of look like? I know this isn't something necessarily that your art house has anything to do with, but what's, you know, you know, when did you start becoming more familiar with NFTs linked to artworks? And, you know, can you kind of share a little bit more about it so people can understand what the hell an NFT is? Yes. So it's kind of the buzzword in the art world right now. There's a lot of, I mean, so it's a non fungible token. It uses the blockchain essentially. It's, there's a lot

of great things about the idea of NFTs and about what it's developed and what it will likely develop into. You know, it essentially, it allows for the blockchain, you know, the same, you know, when we're talking about crypto as well. It connects to an artwork, to a digital, usually a digital work of art. It connects the history of the artwork. It connects the artist to the artwork, you know, ideally throughout its history. And it connects all of the details associated with the artwork to the artwork. It limits the availability of an artwork the same way that, you know, David Blackwood, the Newfoundland printmaker, he creates a series of prints that might be 50 works. Same image with slight alterations. He does them by hand.

And those works, you know, one print in that series could sell for $5,000. One could sell for $10,000, depending on demand, depending demand depending on the image or you know the color in the image and things like that and so that's what we're so you're seeing all kinds of different types of art and artists involved in nfts right now um you have to be i mean and i'll admit like i'm most of my experience is just from reading and just from reading articles and things like that we don't we're a you know we're mainly dealing in historical and post-war Canadian art. There's less contemporary traded in Canada at auction than there is in the United States, where we've seen artists like Beeple trade their NFTs for record setting, you know, over almost $70 million the last year.

And so there's a lot of pluses about it because it does allow digital art has always been had the difficulty of having a vehicle to really protect the artist and to provide a one of a kind work of art to the collector. And, you know, a lot of people laugh and talk about the fact that you can't trade it. And that's the thing is that the same way that, you know, if you can go on your, you know, you can go on Google and find the image, a high res image of the Mona Lisa and print it out, put it on your wall. And yes, you are, you have a bit of the experience. I shouldn't cheat on the experience of the Mona Lisa, but you can't trade it. There's nothing you can do with that. It's, you know, and you have no access to the original. You're never going to own the original. Whereas this is the difference is that, you know, people talk about, you know, I can go online and right click that and I can own that artwork. And so

what's the point of NFTs? And so it's, there's a lot that's great about NFTs that it will, you know, there's an aspect that, you know, an artist creates something, creates a work of art. They are then able to, through these different services that have been created, they're able in galleries online, they're able to trade that, to sell that. They can create, you know, a series of 50 of an image, like just the same way we do with prints, and sell them for as nice as $200 each. You know, as we talk about, we're always talking about the extremes. We're always talking about $60 million. But there's a lot of artists who are making a great living, especially during the pandemic, of selling, you know, individual images for $100 each and selling 50 of them, which is more than they ever would have gotten.

There's a lot of issues with it already. You know, there's a lot of talk about this. You know, it's difficult to it's difficult in terms of the process of creation for many newcomers. And so a lot of those newcomers are using services to help them create those services are then sometimes taking huge percentages in terms of the income and they're tied to the income throughout in some cases and then that so the whole idea of nfts breaking the old art world system of taking away the middle person that starts then to be

bogged down um so i think just like you know we talk and i think even people even he called it and said it was a bubble and he made the point that like the internet, this will change over time. This will calm down. There will likely be a burst. But what's left, there will be aspects that are great. And hopefully they can get away with, you know, or get away, like distance themselves from and find a way that environmentally it's not so damaging. That it's easier for the artist to be involved in it. But at the same time, what's, you know, what's central to it, the idea of the protection of an artist, especially with

something digital, where for so long, digital artists talked about, yeah, I post, you know, my works on Instagram, I sell prints for $25 each, last month, I sold two. But but then but their work is being reposted everywhere. And sometimes to the point where we now see, you know, there've been issues all over with major fashion chains, just taking digital art online and putting it on a t-shirt and the artist has nothing, you know, the artist gets nothing out of that. They don't, they can't afford to take, you know, to do anything legally. So those aspects are really positive in terms of protection of the artist, in terms of traceability, in terms of provenance, because provenance is one of the biggest, you know, important aspects of art collecting throughout history, is that, you know, a major painting can come into us that looks to be

by the artist, but if we have no history on the painting, it's a challenge. You know, if it's a Cornelius Kriegoff painting that was painted in 18, you know, the 1880s, finding that history of the artwork may not be possible. Whereas this, you know, the blockchain idea is the idea of ensuring that every step, every owner of the artwork ever has, and that the artist has the opportunity to collect on every sale as well. And so that's huge. But it's going to be, but it is one of those things that just like crypto, and I've listened to you talk about crypto as well, it will, you know, it's going to settle into something, I'm sure, in the next 10 years, that's probably gonna be much different than what we know now.

And there's aspects that are going to be advantageous for what it turns into. And there's aspects I think that are negative now, that are hopefully going to dissipate and be something different. But yeah, it's, it's really is something because, and I mean, I was, you know, reading articles about it as well. There's a lot of talk about the fact that it was the perfect time for it to emerge during the pandemic because they were talking about it was essentially a lot. It was also they call it a boredom market where there was a lot of people looking for something new and looking for investment. And so many investors in it as well. They talk about at the high end were investors that were, their investments were in that world already. So they were taking crypto and buying NFTs and moving money around that way. And even the Beeple purchase was purchased, I think, by an NFT

tied company that made a huge investment that also helped to give them promotion in that way too. So yeah, we're all interested. The art world, we do keep up because these trends are great because you see these trends and it just means that the first flash isn't necessarily what it's going to look like 10 or 15 years later, but it certainly shows a direction of movement and of development in our industry. I mean, in the past two years, the online aspect of our industry, you couldn't have convinced me 20 years ago that we could do, we did an auction in December, 2020 in a TV studio without an audience with just us.

And we had real-time live online bidding, which we never would have dreamed we'd ever introduce 15 years ago. And it was one of the most profitable sales we ever had, one of the most active sales we ever had. And I think that's one aspect that's gonna, that has changed our industry and we'll see it after the pandemic is over. You're going to have so many clients that are going to have greater comfort in doing real time online bidding than they are in coming to the room and in bidding, bidding absentee or bidding on the telephone because they have full control and they have full anonymity and and it's easy. And so, you know, it's amazing what the differences and the changes we've seen in our industry in the past two years.

It's really exciting. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see where things land in five, ten plus years, because I feel like we're at this moment where there's there's so much change in such a short amount of time. But it's also very difficult to kind of see what that will actually end up looking like. And like you said, I feel like we're at this beginning and you said it so well, it's like kind of a, it's a flash right now,

but everyone thinks this is it. It's like, we're just actually at the beginning. So we'll see actually, you know, where everything kind of lands afterwards. So we'll have to keep, you know,

we'll have to keep, you know, tracking all of this stuff to kind of see what happens. So that's very interesting. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. And honestly, I feel like I know so much more about the art world. It's it's was such a pleasure having you on before I let you go working, you know, people learn more about

this, because I know, I'm sure you have plenty of information, you know, on your website. And yeah, where can people find? You you know if they want to actually start doing this where can they uh find your auction house uh we're at uh cowley abbott c-o-w-l-e-y-a-b-b-o-t-t dot c-a um we hold like i said we hold themed auctions every single month and so online auctions that are you know and we offer every opportunity for you to reach out to us if you're interested in artwork you can send a note to us and ask about the artwork or talk to us about what you have. If you have an artwork as well,

we offer free valuations and there's no obligation. Completely confidential. We're on all the social media, Instagram as well at Cowley Abbott. And certainly, and then we have a gallery space in downtown Toronto. We're directly across the street from the Art Gallery of Ontario.

And so once the pandemic, I mean, right now we're open, but as things continue to get freer, then we'll be hosting, you know, full previews here again. But yeah, cowleyabbott.ca, you can find all the information about us. Amazing.

Well, thank you so much, Rob, once again for joining me and, you know, sharing some really important information about getting into the art world. Thanks so much, Jessica. And that was episode 325 with Rob Cowley. You can follow

him or Cowley Abbott on Twitter and Instagram at Cowley Abbott. That's C-O-W-L-E-Y-A-B-B-O-T-T. And of course, you can visit the website at cowleyabbott.ca. And they also have a YouTube channel. So I'm going to link all of these places where you can find more information about them and just learn more about investing in fine art and specifically Canadian art, which is really cool. In the show notes for this episode, just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash 325 is where you can find all of that good information. And yeah, so as always, I have some things to share with you. So stick around. I just have a few words I want to share about this podcast episode sponsor. And then I've got some stuff to share. You're not gonna want to miss it. This episode of the more money podcast is supported by the Globe and Mail. If there's one thing I've learned over the years is that the most important

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Globe and Mail every day like I do? Lucky for you, the Globe is offering listeners of the More Money Podcast a special subscription for unrestricted access to all of the content, tools, newsletters, and more at tgam.ca slash Jessica. Once again, visit tgam.ca slash Jessica to take advantage of this limited time offer. You can also learn more about how the Globe and Mail can help you become better informed by visiting globeandmail.com slash better informed. Okay, so things that I need to share with you, in case you don't know, if you're new to the show, or maybe you forgot, maybe you haven't listened in little bit, I've been doing a, you know, very big giveaway, a big book giveaway, if you forgot, maybe you haven't listened in a little bit, I've been doing a very big

giveaway, a big book giveaway, if you will, giving away every book that has been featured on this season of the show. And there has been quite a few episodes and quite a few authors. Quite honestly, I feel like almost every person who's been on the show has been an author, almost. And so just to give you an idea, currently giving away nine books, and there's a few more to come, guys, a few more to come, several to come, actually. So as a an idea, currently giving away nine books, and there's a few more to come, guys. A few more to come. Several to come, actually. So as a reminder, I'm giving away a copy of The Financial Mindset Mix by Joyce Marder, Foolish by Gil Baumgarten, Financial Adulting by Ashley Feinstein-Gersley, Get the Hell

Out of Debt by Erin Skye Kelly, Money Like You Mean It by Erica Alini, The Revolution That Wasn't by Spencer Jacob, Destroy Your Student Loan Debt by Anthony O'Neill, My Money, My Way by Kumiko Love, and Elmer's Nine and Dine by Ryan Goldsman. And like I mentioned, more episodes to come. Actually, let me just give you a little teaser in case you're wondering what kind of guests or books that will be on the show. Oh, I can't wait. I'm going to tell you exactly who I have on the show next week. I'm a bit shocked that I've got her on my show. I'm a huge fan and kind of fangirled if I'm honest, because when this is a crazy story, but when I first moved to Toronto, which was almost nine years ago now, before that time, I was obsessed with HGTV and two of my

favorite people. Well, now both of them are going to be have been on the show. So one was Scott McGillivray, who, you know, from so many different shows like Buyer's Boot Camp and one of my favorites, Income Property. He was on the show back in 2018 for episode 153. So you can find that episode at well on the podcast or just go to my website, JessicaMoorhouse.com slash 153. But now I have the other person who I was obsessed with her show. If you're Canadian, you know who I'm talking about. I've got Sandra Rinamato on the show. She hosted Property Virgins and By Herself. I literally watched every single episode of Property Virgins. I don't know what it was,

but I loved her, loved the show. Now I have her on the show for next week. So you're going to love it. And we're going to talk real estate and buying, selling and all that good stuff. Hot topic. And I know you're going to love it. So that's something to look forward to next week. Other than that, what else is happening in my life? If you're curious, honestly, I'm just working 24 seven. That's kind of what it feels like. I feel like like I've kind of mentioned so many times on the show. I'm like updating so many different things in my kind of online world business like website that's coming guys updating my budget spreadsheets that's coming what else updating my investing course FYI, I've got one it's called wealth building blueprint for Canadians

and I'm doing a big update and I think I'm going to get there by the end of the month. That's my goal and it's pretty rocking like I keep on making it better and better if I do say so myself if If you want to learn more about my investing course, just go to jessicamorehouse.com slash WBB. It is a course for Canadians who want to learn about index investing, passive investing, whatever you want to call it. It's the same thing. So you can learn more about that. But otherwise, personally, you know what's really exciting, guys? You know what's really exciting? I'm getting new closets. I know you don't care. No one cares but me. But there's something about getting a functional, just functional organizational spaces that makes me so satisfied. Because my house is honestly, I know we moved in like maybe three, almost four months ago now.

But honestly, our house is still kind of a disaster. And oh, also, we just got our new couch. That was exciting. Because of supply chain issues and all that kind of stuff. We ordered it back in like early February, and we just got it. So that's exciting. I'm excited because it's a sectional guys. And I fantasized about having a sectional in which I would have room to, you know, really spread out like right now, we just have this very tiny couch. This is not working for us. This is the little things, new closets, new couch. Next up is a dining room table. I have not owned a dining room table in almost a decade. Yeah. I've just been using my, you know, coffee table and it's been fine until I'm like, you know what? We're adults. We should probably get like a table

table so we can invite people over for dinner. Right? Right? I don't know. That's, I'm, that's, it's, it's common. I just don't, then I look online and they're like, what kind of table am I going to get? I don't know what's cool. I have no eye for interior design. I need someone to help me. If you know somebody, please let me know. Honestly, like not someone who's fancy. I don't have fancy taste. Just someone who can come in and give me some tips. That would be amazing. Anyways, thank you so much for listening. A big shout out to my wonderful podcast editor, Matt Rideout. Thanks for sticking around and listening to me chat.

And lots of great episodes to come. Honestly, just FYI, I'm not sure if I shared this before, but this podcast season is going to run until the mid-June is very exciting. Um, yeah. So exciting times, exciting times, you guys. Anyways, thank you. See you next Wednesday. Have an amazing, uh, week weekend. See you back here next Wednesday. this podcast is distributed by the women in media podcast network find out more at women in media.network