More Money Podcast - 332 Taking Back Your Financial Power - Julien and Kiersten Saunders, Bloggers from rich and REGULAR

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

I’m interviewing a duo on today's episode of the More Money podcast! I’m so excited to have fellow podcasters and newly published authors, Julien and Kiersten Saunders from rich & REGULAR on the show to talk all about their new book, Cashing Out.  Julien and Kiersten Saunders currently reside in Atlanta, Georgia, and are the couple behind the popular blog and podcast, rich & REGULAR. They also have a YouTube channel in which they produce an award-winning series, Money on the Table. Today on the show they’re talking all about their new book, Cashing Out: Win the Wealth Game By Walking Away.  In today’s episode, Julien and Kiersten share what rich and regular really means, as well as setting up a system for your money that gives you back the power over your life. They get into the nitty-gritty of why we should rethink how we approach growing in our careers, and why finding a community of like-minded individuals is the best thing you can do for your social life. For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/332 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, Lulu, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is episode 332 of the show, and I am your host, Jessica Morehouse. Welcome back to the show. And goodness, we only have a few more episodes. This is the second to last episode for season 14 of the show. And by the time this is out, we will have surpassed, you guys, we will have surpassed seven years of the show, seven year anniversary. Is that an unlucky number? Isn't there something unlucky with the number seven? Oh, let's pretend like there isn't. Pretend like it's a good thing. I don't know. I'm pretty stoked because this just means I'm only like three years away from hitting 10 years as a podcaster, which

is wild. That doesn't even make sense to me. And somehow I made this into a career for myself. And that's pretty darn cool. Pretty darn cool. But you know what else is cool? My two new guests for this episode. I'm lucky enough to have Kirsten and Julian Saunders on the show and big fans of them myself. And they have a new book coming out. So you're going to love this episode. So Julian and Kirsten are the couple behind the award-winning blog, Rich and Regular, and the forthcoming book, which is out very soon, June 14th, Cashing Out, Win the Wealth Game by Walking Away. And they are also the producers of the award-winning video series, Money on the Table, and hosts of the Rich and Regular podcast. And they're both based out

of Atlanta, Georgia, and they are on a mission to inspire better conversations about money. And you'll learn this in the episodes, but they have a pretty amazing story. So they, you know, used basically, you know, frugal living, real estate, stock market investing, and running their own online business on the side of their careers to build wealth and ultimately achieve financial independence. And they were also able to pay off $200,000 in debt in only five years and have been featured in some huge media outlets like the New York Times, Forbes, CBS This Morning, MarketWatch, and the Oprah Winfrey Network. And when they're not sharing stories about their experiences with money, well, they are parents to their son, Beau, and like to travel the world and search for their

next great meal. So we've got lots of great stuff to talk about. And also, spoiler, I will be giving away a copy of their book. So many books I'm giving away, and I'll share more details at the end of this episode. But before we get to that interview with Julian and Kirsten, here's just a few words about today's podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is sponsored by TD Direct Investing. Every June, TD Direct Investing celebrates Options Education Month with the goal of helping investors learn more about options trading. Throughout the month, they are hosting a number of free virtual events for beginner and intermediate investors alike. Want to learn about some of the things people wish they knew before they began or build on some of the knowledge you may already have on options? Visit td.com

slash options education month to register for one of the many live webinars TD Direct Investing will be hosting. Or if you're more interested in getting an introduction to options in the first place, there are a number of on-demand video lessons available too. To learn more and to check out the list of free events, just visit jessicamorehouse.com slash options. Once again, to find out what webinars, masterclasses, and on-demand video lessons are available to view for free, just visit jessicamorehouse.com slash options. Welcome, Julian and Kirsten, to the More Money Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show.

Thank you for having us. We're super excited to talk to you. Yeah, and I'm super excited to discuss your book, Cashing Out, Win the Wealth Game by Walking Away. As I kind of mentioned to you before I hit the record button, I've read, I mean, if I probably counted, probably over 100 personal finance books. It's one of the great things and also curses of having a podcast where I interview authors all the time. Got to read their books. And I've read a lot of things that I've read before. I mean, again, usually, I'm not the audience for a lot of these books. They're for people that are just learning this stuff. But I was really pleasantly surprised that your book had so much stuff that I feel like a lot of books don't really get in depth about really important things. So I'm so excited to really dive in. But before, tell me a little bit about yourselves. Tell me a little bit about your

journey to how you, you know, discovered kind of the the world of fire and financial independence, how that kind of inspired you to then, you know, do what you're doing now, which is inspiring a lot of people to take on their own financial independence journeys. Go ahead. Oh, I thought you were going to answer. All right. Hi, everyone.

We're Kirsten and Julian. We live in Atlanta, Georgia, and we have been kind of immersed in the FIRE personal finance community for roughly the last 10 years. We actually met, we're married, and we actually met at work and started dating very quickly. And our first financial conversation was actually our first financial argument and subsequent breakup. And so we learned- Or did you break up after that argument? Oh, yeah. You mentioned that in the book.

Oh, I did not know that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I was done. I was done. Were you the one who broke it off or? Yeah. Yeah, I was. Yeah.

Oh, goodness. And maybe we'll get into the details of that story. But the point is we learned the value of money conversations very finance. And originally, I was completely against it. I thought it was too extreme. I didn't understand the point. I had not confronted the data associated with wage growth and career limitations, any of that stuff. And so finally, I came around after finding the right content creators and the right mix of real life examples. And that inspired us to start to tell our own story, to expand the audience of this kind of content to more African-Americans and people of color. And we started Rich and Regular in 2017, just to document our family's

journey to financial independence. A couple of jobs, a kid, a house since then. And we're still we're still talking about it. It's just kind of expanded to podcast and digital series. And now this book cashing out. Wow. I mean, you've made some progress in the last five years. Like that's like that's when 2017 was also a pivotal year for me. I went from because I'd always had a blog and a podcast, but that's when I quit my corporate job and, you know, did this on my own full time. And man, but I had like five years of build up to that point. And that was like, so for you to start in 2017, and be where you are today, like, that's huge strides. I'm curious, like, what, I guess, was your kind of vision when you're like, we're going to start this? Was it just like, oh, we'll just, you know, document, you know, what we're going to do and see if anyone enjoys it? Or was this maybe also a step in your financial journey? Like, maybe one day, this will then, you know, give us enough passive income that we can leave our jobs or, you know, what was kind of the idea behind it?

I think a big part of it was really just kind of, to Kirsten's point, looking at a wider set of data. So obviously we were looking at some of the stories and personalities and things that we'd heard from other people who are bloggers and content creators. But we were also looking at that against what we knew to be true about the experiences of black people in the United States, really around the world, but for the most part, what we were experiencing in the United States. And then adding in like a third layer, because apparently that wasn't enough. We were like, well, as marketers, we were frustrated by the problem that we were experiencing with sharing some of the content that we were consuming. We'd find these things and we would be just completely sucked in and drawn and was like, oh my gosh, have you seen this? Have you heard about this guy? Have you

heard about this woman? Some of the things that they're able to do in such a remarkable short period of time, they're retiring early. And we shared with people and it just kind of went in one ear and out the other. And so on a personal level, that was very frustrating. But as people who were at the time working in business development and sales and marketing, we were like, what is the problem? This is actually a marketing problem. Here is a set of solutions and a lifestyle that we know can help a significant number of people, but it's just not breaking through. And so we kind of tackled it that way. And one of the biggest insights we learned was just like how important it is for people to see themselves in the stories that they're reading. And so if you think about the smash success of

Black Panther for a reason, it wasn't just because the story itself is just really, really cool. And there were tons of like effects. It was because there was so much pent up demand and people who just never saw themselves in superhero movies. They could never identify with the characters or the superhero or even the villain in some cases. And so we realized that this is actually a really interesting thing. And so if we were to create some content, we're not going to do it like any of the people who are creating content. We're not going to focus on data or overwhelming people with math because that didn't work, quite honestly. What did work was really creative and compelling and in some cases heartbreaking stories that forced people to confront what they already knew to be true but were actually afraid to talk about. And we're still dealing with that now and trying to get people to think about this book

and some of the tackles that we're trying, I'm sorry, and some of the problems that we're asking people to tackle. And so all of those things combined are really what motivated us to create, not just or write this book, but to create all of the content that we've created and to deliver it in the way that we've delivered it

over the last couple of years. Absolutely. I feel like one thing that really resonated with me was when you did share those really personal stories that even though I am obviously white and have a very different experience as you, I do have some experience with discrimination being a woman in the workplace. And a lot of the stories that you shared about toxic workplaces and not being able to get to that next level in your career and being passed over by, you know, for promotions when someone less experienced or less skilled than you somehow gets the VP job. And you're like, what's happening? Like, oh, my gosh, literally happened to me my whole career until I became self-employed. And then I can kind of dictate, you know, where I could fly, basically, I feel

like so many people will be able to resonate with those stories and also do something about it. Because like, I think the frustrating thing or where people get frustrated is understanding that this is happening and then feel like, well, there's nothing I could do. This is beyond my control. It's a bigger problem, so much bigger than me. I'm just not going to try. And your whole point is this exists. This is the reality that we live in. It is unfair. It's going to take a while for us to ever have a pure, like actual equality, but there is still something that we can do because giving up isn't going to help anybody. And so I, that's what really got me like excited. You know, cause sometimes I'm, you know, I've got my feelings about fire because there's a lot. There's a spectrum, right?

There's people that are super extreme. I like kind of more the middle ground, the balance. And I feel like that's kind of what you talk more about. It's not about living on beans and rice for 15 years. And then you can live your life and enjoy yourself. It's really about creating a system so you can enjoy the now, but also prepare for the future. And I think so many people need to do that because, you know, like yourselves and, you

know, what I used to think and so many other people think is, you know, I'll just work really hard and then eventually I'll get promoted and get those raises. And then I'll be able to achieve all the things that I thought I'd be able to achieve based off looking at, you know, my parents or what other people were able to achieve. And, you know, I got to a certain point where, you know, when I turned 30, I'm like, yeah, it's I worked my butt off, and I'm still nowhere close to where I should be. And that's, you know, big reason why, you know, I definitely did some different things when it comes to my personal finances. So So with that, you know, saying all this, what are some things that you want people to be aware of? Like, let's talk a little bit about some of those data points. Like, what are

some, you know, things that, you know, women, people of color, people that are, you know, a minority have to deal with that will, you know, they will kind of see these struggles and what can they do actionably today to make sure they have a better future and not be stuck in this kind of, well, I'm never going to move up. Yeah, thank you for saying that. First of all, it means a lot. We obviously wrote the book with Black professionals and people of color in mind, but we've gotten so many letters and feedback from white people, white women, white men who have said like, yo, this resonated with me too. And it's like, yeah, we know. I know that this problem is not unique to the Black community.

It's just that we might feel it more frequently or at a wider, you know, on a wider scale. But it means a lot that a lot of people outside of our intended audience are able to relate and resonate with our work. But I think the thing that you bring up is that, you know, we've reached this really interesting point in history where the tried and true career and money advice just didn't work or isn't working anymore. Most Americans are drastically unprepared for retirement and can't imagine a world without work, which is a really sad place to be socially, right? Like the point of our one life here is not to spend it at work 80% of the time. And whether you are at physically work or just thinking about work or recovering from work, it still matters.

It still robs your friends and your family. and if you have children, your children, from understanding and knowing who your full self is. We also know that money is the leading cause of stress among Americans and the leading cause of divorce and separation. And both of those things have financial implications. Stress is called the silent killer for a reason. It creates a lot of internal illnesses and diseases and challenges for people. And then when you talk about divorce and separation, it's expensive. We know that life as a dual-income household gives you certain benefits, both from a tax standpoint and from an emotional and financial standpoint. And then the last part, which is kind of where we challenge corporations, is about the

wage gap. There is a stubborn and growing wage gap between men and women. And then when you add a racial demographic perspective on there, it just gets bigger. And so the idea of thinking that you can work your way out of this issue, knowing that you're paid 30, sometimes 40% less than a white male counterpart is counterintuitive. It doesn't make sense. And somebody has to be the person to say that. And who better to say that? Who is in a better position to say that than people who are outside of the system? That's always been how change has happened. It's always the outsiders who are kind of bringing this up and mentioning it, whether it's another country looking at America and saying, that's weird that you guys don't offer maternity and paternity leave. Kind of weird that you guys pay so much for healthcare. It's always kind of been an outsider's

perspective, which is why I think we were uniquely suited to bring up some of these issues. Yeah, we didn't get too much into it in the book, but that's certainly one of my core motivations, or I would say my own, one of several wake-up calls that I had was confronting what work or the impact that work would have on my ability to be the kind of father that I wanted to be. And I have to admit my own ignorance because as proud of my career and career trajectory as I was, it really wasn't until I had a child that I even thought about paternity leave and the impact that that had, not just on, again, my ability to build a bond or relationship with my son in literally the first days of his life, but also just the fact that I wanted to be there to support Kirsten. And I wouldn't be able to do that without using vacation time and personal time. And then on top of that,

I was only fortunate to have worked with a manager who was also a recent father and had that same issue. And under the table, he gifted me a week where he was like, you know what, don't worry about it. I'm not even going to say anything to HR, but you can have this week. Just kind of keep your phone on you just in case, you know, somebody needs something that only you can answer. But somebody did it for me and now I'm doing it for you, right? And so aside, whether we're looking at this from a racial lens, from a gender lens, or even just, I think the broadest lens is this imbalance of power between employees

and employers and the impact that that has on our ability to raise a family, I think is probably the biggest issue that everyone and anyone, whether you have children or not, can likely identify with. And I think it's the underlying reason why I think some of the things that we're talking about in the book should lead people to reconsider the way that they think about their money and the way that they're planning their careers. Absolutely. Like, I don't have kids, but I will say one thing that I always felt really restricting,

and it was one of the reasons that was like, this is the last straw I'm leaving, my last corporate job before going off on my own own is my time wasn't my own. And like just a short story, I, you know, hadn't been on a vacation in like three years, finally me and my husband, you know, for my 30th birthday, went to Paris, but Gillis trip, and I was contacted in Paris from work about a work issue because they couldn't reach so and so whatever. And I'm like, really? The one week I'm gone gone in Paris you're asking me to log in and do this work I I can't and I think a lot of people have that experience whereas like maybe they have to be somewhere to take care of a loved one and they can't get the time off work and so the time

really isn't your own and I feel like you talk a lot about how you know I think some people just think about building wealth and financial independence is oh Oh, I'll have more money for stuff. It's like, no, you have more money for time and to have choices and to get out of maybe a situation or a job that just isn't fulfilling or just is crushing your soul. Or you want to have, you know,

take a break and start a family. And a lot of us just don't have that opportunity. And, you know, you talk a lot about the book too, whereas a lot of people, I think think that, okay,

the answer is earning more money. And yes, obviously earning more money is always a great thing. It's, it's always a helper, but there's so many people I know. I mean, I used to work for a law for my last job and these people were making tons of money and sometimes they wouldn't be able to pay their phone bill because they spend every single dollar. And so it's, it's not just about how much you earn. It's about what you do with your money. Do you want to kind of talk a little bit about why it is so critical? Like that is kind of the basis for how to then combat all this inequality and dealing with maybe a workplace that is, you know, kind of taking up all of your time. It's like setting up a system so you can then kind of take back the power and utilize your money. So it will kind of, you know I guess, give you more freedom in the future? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. And there's actually an acronym to describe this idea of high earners who don't have excess cash. It's called HENRY, High Earner Not Rich Yet. And it's

this new demographic that people are studying to try to understand what it is. And also, brands are studying to learn how to market to people who can afford luxury goods, can afford a $600 suitcase because of the way that it's marketed, despite the fact that it works the exact same as the $75 suitcase. A plastic bag. A plastic bag. I know, it's a plastic bag. Right.

It's a hard plastic bag with wheels. Yeah. Just know that if you are a high earner, like they are studying you and figuring out like what you react to because they know you have disposable income and that you don't have a plan for it. And so in our book, we actually teach this framework called the purpose of income. It's very early in the book to try to break up what a brain on consumerism, like how it behaves. And the point is that in a world where you're exposed to eight to 10,000 on the low end ads a day, advertisements a day, other people coming in your head telling you how to spend your money, you have to give your income a purpose or somebody else will. And it's as simple as thinking like, okay, the initial purpose of my income is for security. And we walk through what that means. And then the second purpose of my income is flexibility, meaning, okay, now you

have the flexibility to upgrade a few of those things, right? Doesn't mean that you buy the best of them, but you can get a car that has like automatic locks or, you know, an apartment that has a view and a balcony, whatever that is for you. But this is unfortunately in America where a lot of people get stuck. They keep continuously upgrading. They go from the toaster that just toasts bread to the toaster that is cordless to the toaster that now has Bluetooth to the toaster that now is touchscreen, right? And so now you've got a freaking $250 toaster when the original one worked perfectly fine. So we go on to explain the limits of the flexibility purpose and how you can get caught in that. And then the next purpose is

independence, what a lot of us know as financial independence. But even that still has limitations. There are lots of people who have reached financial independence mathematically, but still have one more year syndrome, meaning they just keep going to work every single day. They keep hoping that they'll reach a number that magically convinces them to quit. And so the final purpose of your money is freedom, is to buy your freedom. And that's more of a feeling. You can assign a number to it if you want to, but it's more of a feeling because freedom is one of those things that's never given, it's taken. And so you have to decide, I am at the point where I am financially free. I have opted out of systems that do not care about me, that cannot love me back, that do not pay me equitably. And I'm willing to see

how I survive and live outside of this system that has historically been known to be oppressive, to marginal marginalized people. Absolutely. I was looking at him because I was like, is he about to jump in? Yeah, go ahead. I was honestly thinking about the $600 air fryer that there was an ad for a $600 air fryer that hit my social media. $600 air fryer? What the hell is it doing?

Cutting edge air fryer. It's cutting edge, man. It's like. It's going to air fry. It can do things. Everything. Everything. That other air fryers can't do, apparently.

But yeah, it was, you know. But again, to Kirsten's point, I'm joking, but I'm serious because I was actually targeted for this thing. But I also think that so much of this speaks to, because I'm far more interested in studying American culture than I am finances, quite honestly. Like a lot of the work that we do lives at the intersection of both of those things. And a lot of this really speaks to just this optimism that I don't think a lot of Americans have actually, I don't believe Americans identify as being wildly optimistic, but we are. And it reveals itself in the way that we approach work. We always believe that things are going to be great, that we will always be safe, that we will not have to worry about some of the scary things that we see on the news, that the things

that we've seen happening in the Middle East could never happen here. And financially, it's the same thing. We believe that we will always be employed at the same level, if not more, right? We don't imagine worlds where we will be physically ill, where we might be stuck in this, what I call, you know, I almost call it a death sandwich, right? But, you know, you earn another dollar and now you've got to figure out what am I going to do with this dollar? I'm going to use some of this on myself for self-care or just to help repair my relationship with my wife and try to build some memories with my child. Or am I going to do that and pay it back because my parents actually suffered quite a great deal to help get me to where I am and I owe it to them and I'm a insert last name and that means something. And there's this, again, cultural sort of legacy layer to it. Or am I going to do the right thing

in my head and invest that money because I understand that every dollar that I have today can turn into five or $10 later on. And again, it goes back to the type of content and stories that we really wanted to tell. And I understand that it is to some people, or I should say, I understand some people completely disagree with what I'm getting ready to say. But I don't believe that these are issues that have anything or much of anything to do with financial literacy. Many of the people that we talk to, they already know what to do. You can hear it in the framing up of the question, right? What they're asking you is they don't know which of the solutions to do because they've been bombarded with marketing. I don't know if I should be investing in index funds or if I should be buying real estate or which is both, or should I be buying a home right now, or should I be paying off that? They don't know which one to do. They know all the things to do.

Many of us, right? It's not a matter of like you haven't read the right book or taken the right course. It's that we subscribe to a set of cultural beliefs that overshadow what we already know to be true. And so when we wanted to tackle that problem, it was about saying, how do we cut through that noise and create a message that is sharp enough to do that, but also sticky enough so that I'm going to ask you to take that old story that you've been telling yourself about how to get ahead, go to school, buy a car, work harder to get a great job, and replace it with a new set of stories

with people that are relatable. Not the 10 to 20, 50 million dollar, sure, those are great examples that you can look at on the shelf, but you will never be those people. Let's just be honest. What you can be is what we call rich and regular. And I'm not saying that to say you can be like me, but you can be this idea of you can be that millionaire next door. That is achievable. And so we share our own stories. We share the stories of others with that sort of thinking in mind. Yeah, no, and I think that's what, you know,

draws so many people to you guys, but also myself. I love the term rich and regular because I've never, I've always wanted to have financial security and comfort and independence, but I don't actually want to be like a millionaire, air quotes there, who you see like a Kardashian

who just has all this disposable income and just like is spying designer. I'm like, I have no desire for that lifestyle. That sounds like a lot of work. I actually just want to chill and be able to read a book on a Tuesday afternoon. You know, like I have very basic,

like not exciting desires. It's coming back though. Like if TikTok is any indicator, the desire for that kind of life is coming back. That's why all the, you know, younger, young kids are kind of dressing like dads right now. And like there's a whole aesthetic around, they call it normcore, right? You can Google it to see what it looks like. But it's like the return of normalcy because I think people have realized that like our celebrity worship culture and our ultra rich, you know, our admiration of the ultra rich is actually the thing that is accelerating climate change and adding to to wealth inequality.

And some of the problems that we're fighting for through jobs, like jobs is our only kind of weapon of choice, are created by the things that we choose to pay attention to. And so there's been like this push for more of just like normal classes, like the middle classes finally fighting back with the thing that we know we can control, which is media, right? Which is through user generated content, which is just through kind of public shaming, excessive displays of extreme wealth. And so like being rich and regular is actually, I think, the modern day ambition for wealthy nations, right? It's something that most people can achieve without exploiting certain working classes and just taking advantage of labor loopholes. like it's just something that we can all

kind of strive for yeah absolutely i feel like when you think about yeah like those ultra rich people it's like that is unattainable unattainable for most people and that's fine because you know what i mean i i've done you know some research uh and those people aren't happier no they're not just because you have more money does not like no no offense, Elon Musk doesn't seem happy. No. Otherwise, why would he buy Twitter? Why would he buy Twitter? Why would he buy it?

Like a happy person won't go and do what he just did and try to buy Twitter like that. Like he needs some friends or a hobby. So being ultra wealthy, it shouldn't be like the the ultimate goal but you you said this term and I'm like I love this I've never heard it before but the term stealth wealth I'm like yes the whole like I love knowing that most of the people who would see me on the street would be like she you know I don't I don't wear makeup I just wear regular clothes I don't look like anything special they probably have you're just like oh she's just like whatever but I'm like secretly I'm a millionaire and you have no clue about it and i love that secret millionaire

stealth well it's like it makes me so excited inside like me and my husband always talk about like oh should we get a new car he's had his car for like a decade it's rusting it is a hatchback hyundai that he got when he was like in his 20s i'm like it's been paid off for years i'm like nah let's just run this into the ground because i love that people will never break into this carcass looks like there's nothing good in here there's so much piece so kirsten comes from a long line of car lovers right yeah and and unfortunately it's it's my son's dna has a little bit of that oh yeah i read that in the book he has like a whole garage of cars oh yeah i'm trying to scrub it out as much as I can, but he knows brands. He's five years old.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh, he knows a Tesla when he sees it. He knows a Mustang when he sees it. But yeah, like when we met, I drove a rickety Honda Accord. I loved it. No, when we met, you were still driving that Camry. Okay.

It was a true hootie. It was a beat-up camry got smashed on the side the uh the fuel tanker was but to me like i now when i see that right to your point it is such a very clear indicator like i see that person and i can just look in them in the eye so sometimes you can tell like no they're not part of the stealth wealth community but i can you know if i look over and i'm in traffic and I look over and it's like a little, it's a wink. It was like, oh, I get it, buddy. I know who you are. Kudos to you. Right. Because there's a, to me, there's a sense of peace, right? Like I can park anywhere.

I don't really have to worry about someone dinging my car. I won't notice. There's another ding. A collector item. That has happened to me. It was like, because my mother got in the car at one point and she was like, oh, look at this thing. And I was like, I don't, I genuinely don't know when that may have happened or which one that is, which one are you talking about? Right. So no, but I just think that, you know, even just that juxtaposed against what we know our money can do in the stock market, the problems that we can solve. And quite honestly, I don't consider myself morally superior to people who like nice

things. I love nice things. I love to travel, but it's really just about making sure that I'm applying that in the times and the moments and into things that really, really matter to me. Like I'm not buying the buffet or the bundle of life, you know, because that is not designed for me to end up in a very fruitful and happy place. It's really being strategic, being a la carte, if you will, about the things that matter to me, which aren't just a collection of things and experiences. It's also about helping other people, solving what we call thousand dollar problems in our community every single day, or as often as we want to, so that we can actually just sleep

good and sleep well at night, knowing that we've got a really morally aligned financial plan that just makes us feel good. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of community, you do have a big section on finding your community. You kind of share some interesting stories. Michael, I've been there before where you're so passionate about something you learned, like financial independence, and you can't stop talking about it to your friends and your family. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't care.

Or I don't want to talk to you about money because it's just gonna be a whole long you know lecture um it's so important that's what i found it's like i had to find my community of other money nerds that wanted to talk about this and wanted to share their experiences and their thoughts and knowledge and i think that's so important it's like sometimes you do have to look outside of your current um circle for those people who are you know the same values the same um goals and dreams that you want to do you want to kind of talk about why it's so important no matter whether you want to do fire or not it's so important to kind of find that community who like i even say this for like if you're paying off debt find a debt community so you don't feel alone because money can seem

really lonely if you feel if you don't have anyone to talk to about it besides your partner or something. And believe me, I still talk to my husband about money, but I need a group of other people that I can talk about this stuff with. Yeah, it's been one of the more surprising kind of benefits of taking this path because I think we're so used and accustomed to our friends and family being like the number one supporters in our lives. We almost feel like you're doing something wrong if they don't completely buy in, particularly if you're a woman, you're conditioned to need other people's permission and validation your whole life, right? Even as a little girl, you hear messages about needing permission, validation to be liked and celebrated and applauded. And so when I entered into this financial kind of journey into this space,

I expected the same thing. I would share my goals. I would talk about who I could become. I could say, oh my God, by the time, you know, tell my mom, like by the time I'm your age, I'll have X million dollars and I'll just be like super, you know, rich and free. And surprisingly, the response was that it was kind of tacky and not possible. And yeah, I doubt it. You just haven't lived long enough. Like, yeah, let's see what you say after you have kids or whatever, you know, whatever people bring, whatever their baggage is. And so we encourage people to go back to the same skill sets we had in elementary school. And I get it. That might've been a traumatic time for some people, but like go back to those skill sets of like when you had to meet other people to make the experience worth it, to make going into a place, you know, meaningful and find your people. Come for the content for

sure. Find content creators who create wonderful content, but then stay for the community. Actually leave your computer, find regular people who are just talking about their situations, learn from them and apply it to yourself. It's like downgrading your financial heroes. And I don't mean that as a negative thing, but not having these gurus and actually just applying your knowledge and your goals to a larger set of people has so many benefits. We actually stumbled upon a piece of research

while we were writing that talked about imposter syndrome and how it can be magnified when you're talking to friends and familyified when you're talking to friends and family versus when you're talking to complete strangers, which I thought was like completely wild, but also validated a lot of my experiences. And so there's just something to be said, like it's, it's a matter of like opening yourself up to, to surprises. If I had learned, if I had known that some of my best money friends who have now become actual friends would be like suburban rural white families from Florida, like I just would have never saw that for myself. But it's real. Like we keep up with each other. We check on each other's children. We send each other, you know, things that our kids have grown out of. We have little retreats and virtual happy hours. It's just been an amazing benefit, side

effect that a lot of people don't talk about, that there's a chance that you actually haven't met your best friends yet, right? We think we met them in college or whatever kind of community you grow up on, but with the internet, it's a chance you actually haven't met them yet. So set yourself up for success and tilt the odds in your favor that you actually meet the person who's exactly who you need. The only thing I would add to that is, as you were talking, I was just thinking about what actually brings people together. And quite honestly, it sense of shared misery that you have with your family and your friends is in part what's keeping you together. So if you come together every single time so that we can all complain about our jobs, so that we can all complain about how expensive it is to own a home or how the cousin or the friend in the family that's creating all these problems. And it's like, you know, you can actually create relationships with people that actually aren't rooted in misery.

Like it's shared values. It's it's it sounds so weird, but it's like a different way of thinking about relationships. Right. A healthier way. Friendships. Right. A healthier way. Or friendships, right? Where you put aside all of these other things, which again, I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm actually not interested in your political affiliations or any of those things, but we actually agree on these things and it's enough for me to say, you know what? We can exchange ideas. We can spend time together.

We can even travel together in some cases. We can learn from one another and build a community and have a positive effect on that community. And I think that there's something to that. And so, you know, I think you can write this in the book, but it's about teaching adults how to make adult friends. Right. Which is so hard and awkward.

We have completely forgotten how to do that. And I think the pandemic has actually made it even worse. Right. So it's about showing I haven't seen people like physically for a long time, like it's just starting to happen now. And yeah, it's it's that was one of the hardest things that I to learn, you know, especially when I, you know, grew up in Vancouver, moved to Toronto when I was about 26. I had to make new friends from scratch because I didn't know anyone. It was so difficult.

But then, like you kind of talk about, it can lead you to some really deep and lasting connections with people that, yeah, you wouldn't have met otherwise because you're putting yourself out there. And you're also looking for specific kind of, you know, people in niches that have, you know, the same values or dreams as you. Whereas, you know, most of the friends that you grew up with, it's because you just became friends because of proximity, quite honestly. Yep. Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, I can agree more. I really love that section that you kind of brought that to everyone's attention. Because, yeah, especially since we're all we're still in this kind of not fully normal, you know, pandemic world. It's, it's so important. I think that's the one thing that so many people realize is like, wow, it can be really lonely. You know, either learning about something new or just, you know, having to quarantine and realize, have a really good think about who are, who is in my circle and are they supportive? Are they lifting me up? Are they

adding value to my life? And I need to make sure that, yeah, I'm part of a group that makes me feel good instead of maybe always, yeah, talking about all the mysteries. intentional in finding a support system. And I think a lot of us are confronting the idea, especially here in America, where so much of where you live determines who you meet, right? It determines what schools, what teachers, what knowledge you have access to, what free resources, what public sources. What you believe is possible. And what you believe is possible. And so it really becomes an intentional act to kind of take stock and say, I don't want to leave these people behind. We're not suggesting that you just like completely ignore your friends and family, but saying like what's missing from the dish. It's like tasting a soup and being like, I could use a little salt and pepper. Like I could use a little jalapeno. I could use a little something. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think there's a collective kind of feeling that we're all going through where we're starting to realize, probably because of the echo chambers of social media, that like, I need some new, I need some new perspective. I am tired of the same thing every day. It's very Groundhog Day. And like, I'm over it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, so much good stuff in your book. I can't say how much I really loved it. And again, you know how many books I've read. And I really, really think this is a book that people need to read. Where can people find more information about you

and grab a copy of your book? Yeah, so you can visit our website at richandregular.com. We're also on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube primarily. I think there's a Pinterest page floating around there somewhere. I know. I've got one of those too. I'm like, oh, I forgot about that. We'll revisit it at some point. Apologies to any of our Pinterest followers. All 12 of y'all. The book is available wherever books are sold. I've learned for most people that means Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Hudson, and a few other places. We're trying our best to get it in as many small and independent bookstores as possible.

We will get there eventually, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find. Just Google Cashing Out and our names. Yeah. Otherwise, you might get a rapper or a casino you will you will we're fighting for that seo yeah help us out well i'm trying i read your book i rated it on goodreads so it could get up in the goodreads but yeah i i actually really that was the one thing like before he let you go why did you name your book cashing out because i feel like when i think of the term i think of your you know playing poker and you're like all right i'm cashing out i'm gonna get out what does that mean to you

it's similar it's the idea of knowing when you're winning and if you stay at that table if you stay on this treadmill or this hamster wheel, the likelihood that you turn out okay is slim to none, right? Based on the examples that we've seen. So it's just this idea of taking your power back and treating it like a game that you can win and knowing when you're winning, like cash out when you're up. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. Can't wait for other people to check out your new book. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. Can't wait for other people to check out your new book. Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Thank you so much. And that was episode 332 with Kirsten and Julian Saunders from Rich and Regular. You can find more information about them at richandregular.com. And also make sure to follow them on Twitter and Instagram at Rich and Regular. And of course, you can find them on Facebook also under Rich and regular and they also have a YouTube channel under the same name and podcast. So very easy to find them. I will of course link everything so it's very easy for you to find in the show notes for this episode. All you have to do is go to Jessica morehouse.com slash 332 to find those show notes. And if you want to find the show notes for any episode ever, you know,

you just go to Jessica morehouse.com slash the number of that episode or go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash podcast. Also, don't forget to grab a copy of their book, Cashing Out, Win the Wealth Game by Walking Away. And like I mentioned, I am giving away a copy of their book, which I will share details about in just a moment, just a few words. I first want to share about today's podcast episode sponsor. This episode of the More Money Podcast is sponsored by TD Direct Investing. June is Options Education Month, and TD Direct Investing is hosting a number of free virtual events throughout the month to educate both beginners and more advanced investors about, well, their options with trading options. Or if you want a full walkthrough of options trading for beginners, there are also a number of on-demand video lessons that will walk you through what

options are, common option terms such as calls and puts, and what the difference between in-the-money and out-of-the-money options are. To learn more and to find out what free events you'd like to check out, visit jessicamorehouse.com slash options. Once again, to find out what webinars, masterclasses, and on-demand video lessons are available to view for free, visit jessicamorehouse.com slash options. Okay, so updates, updates. Okay, well, number one, I have now put all the books that I'm giving away that have been featured on season 14 of the show on the contest page. You can find that at JessicaMorehouse.com slash contest, contest or contests.

They both go to the same place, guys. So it doesn't matter if you add an S or not. They go to the same place. And so that includes Julian and Kirsten's book. But also next week's last, you know, the final guest of the season. I have Dan Bordelotti on the show of Canadian Couch Potato fame. He's one of my favorite guests and I have him on for a second time. And he has a book that I absolutely love called Reboot Your Portfolio.

And we're going to be talking all about it. And I'm giving away copies. So I'm going to be wrapping up this contest, this mega book giveaway by the end of the month, end of June, like July 1st is when I'm going to halt it, change the page so you can't enter anymore and start choosing winners. And I will announce the winners on my email list. So make sure to also subscribe to my email list, jessicamorehouse.com slash subscribe is where you can find that information. Also, in case you haven't been to my website in a you know, a few weeks or so, you will see a huge change. And I'm, you know, I think I mentioned this in previous episodes,

but it is fully up there and ready to go. I have a brand spanking new website, new images of myself and new colors, new brand, really, I mean, brand visual look, you know, it's still the same me, nothing really has changed besides, I hired some, you know, very talented people to help me, you know, really hone in what my brand should look like. And I'm pretty excited about it. So make sure to check it out, jessicamorehouse.com. Also, in case you haven't heard this on a previous episode before, I have an investing course. And, you know, I always kind of find like, at least for me, if you are trying to find some spare time to learn the things you don't know about investing and actually start investing and always find it hard throughout

the year, I always find summer is actually kind of the best time to learn a new skill. Like for me, I am always studying in the summer for some new exam or new course because I actually have a little bit more free time work-wise. So if you want to learn more about my course called Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians, it is a course specific for Canadians who want to learn how to invest in Canada because there's a lot of stuff out there that is not for us Canadians that won't go in-depth like I will about account types and taxation and investment platforms, investment products, all that stuff that's actually so freaking important to that. I really, you know, go really in depth in this course, you can find more details about what it encompasses

on the course page, Jessica Morehouse slash course is where you can find all that information. And if you have any questions, I mean, you could always reach out. But basically how it works is take a look if it's kind of seems like, yeah, this is that sounds interesting to me, you can apply if you are a good fit, you fit within kind of my criteria, we have a call and then we really see if this is a good fit for you. Because I want to make sure that every student that enters the course is in there will do the work and will actually get results. I don't want people basically in the course just to buy it and then never use it. That's how is that helpful for anybody? I actually don't want your money. I want people that will do the work, implement it and actually build their wealth,

hence the whole name and point of the course. So again, you can find all the information at jessicamorehouse.com slash course. So like I've said, we are very close to the end of season 14. And yeah, it's, it's time to take a break seven years, man, seven years. And by break, I'm only going to be taking, I guess, like, you know, the latter part of June off in July, August, and I'll be back sometime in September, usually mid September. Well, we'll see, but most likely just mid September. So I'm not really going away just will be off the air for a few summer months, because I've got some vacation plans, finally, and I'm very excited. But yeah, that I'm still gonna be around, you know, you can email me, I'm gonna be on, you know, sometimes Twitter, Instagram, gonna be doing that a little bit more, because I feel like

I've been off it for a while, which is actually honestly quite nice. If I honestly didn't have this business that required me to be online, probably wouldn't be on Instagram. It's been nice to take a little time off from that app. And I hope to make more YouTube videos. That's been something I really want to focus more on. But honestly, I've been spending so many weeks and quite honestly, months just doing a big update of my investing course to make it even better. And, you know, just more comprehensive. So lots of good stuff in that course. Make sure to check it out. Okay, that is it for me. I'm going to see you back here next Wednesday. Big shout out to my wonderful podcast editor, Matt Rideout, as always. And yeah, check back here next Wednesday for the final episode of season 14

of the More Money Podcast. But until then, have a good rest of your week, weekend. See you next week. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.