More Money Podcast - 337 It's Not You, It’s Your Toxic Workplace - Alan Henry, Journalist and Author

Episode Date: September 28, 2022

Have you ever felt like you aren’t being seen or heard at the office? Or have you experienced micro-aggressions from your co-workers before? Unfortunately, you’re not alone. After writing an article in the New York Times called “How to Succeed When You’re Marginalized or Discriminated Against at Work,” my guest and journalist Alan Henry went on to write his newly released book Seen, Heard, and Paid, a book all about navigating toxic work environments and giving marginalized groups of people the tools they need to succeed in their careers. Alan Henry is a prominent journalist, editor, and author. He was previously the Smarter Living editor at The New York Times and the editor-in-chief of the productivity and lifestyle blog Lifehacker. He is now the author of the newly released book, Seen, Heard, and Paid: The New Work Rules for the Marginalized and is the senior editor at Wired.  In this episode, Alan shares how his experiences in a toxic work environment led him to write his new book. He also shares what language to use when you experience microaggressions at work and also what quantifies as a microaggression. Alan shares the importance of having “psychology safety” at work and why his most significant tip is to keep a work diary. This is a jam-packed conversation you don’t want to miss! For full episode show notes visit: https://jessicamoorhouse.com/337 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, and welcome back to the More Money Podcast. This is your host, Jessica Morehouse, and this is episode 337. And oh boy, do I have an amazing guest. And I'm also going to be giving away his book. And I don't know why I'm singing. I'm just in a good mood. But I can't wait to share this episode with you. I've got Alan Henry on the show. He is a journalist and editor who writes and commissions stories that help readers make better use of their technology and embrace a healthier relationship with it in their lives. But he is on the show to talk about his latest book called Seen, Paid, and Heard, The New work rules for the marginalized. He's also currently a senior editor at Wired. But as you'll find out in this episode, he was previously the smarter living editor at

the New York Times. And before that, the editor in chief of the productivity and lifestyle blog Lifehacker. So if you've ever felt like, well, and i'm sure this is like everybody but if you've ever felt like you have uh been ignored or there's you know you've experienced microaggressions or you've just worked in a toxic work environment and you're like is it me or is it the environment i'm in i mean i'll hold my hand up right now and say i've been in several of these situations um well this is the book for you this is what we're these situations. Well, this is the book for you. This is what we're going to be talking about. This is the book for you. He not only addresses, you know, some of his experiences, but also a lot of his research that he's done in this kind of

sphere about basically navigating workplaces that aren't exactly healthy. Because, you know, if you have a workplace that is super positive and healthy, that's amazing. But most of us have not experienced that. Or if we have, it's for a short amount of time. And then I feel like, you know, someone pulls the curtain, then you see what's really going on. So this is a book to not only talk about it, but give you solutions, give you some tools that you can actually use to navigate or to escape these situations. So you are going to get a lot out of this episode. I sure did. So can't wait to share with you. But before I do, here's a few words I want to share about this season's podcast sponsor. This episode of the more money podcast is supported by Desjardins. Does your financial

institution share your values? Because Desjardins is about more than just money. They are on a mission to enrich people's lives and improve the economic and social well-being of Canadians everywhere. Desjardins' main goal as a cooperative is to support its members and make a positive impact on their communities by providing exceptional customer care, offering a variety of financial services, and above all, listening to its members. They've also been at the forefront of sustainable investing as one of the first financial institutions to offer responsible investment portfolios. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're a cooperative making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. Welcome, Alan, to the show. I'm so excited to have you here with me to talk about one of my favorite topics, not being seen or not being heard and not being paid well.

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. You're so welcome. You're so welcome. Like I mentioned before, I hit the record button. I mean, oh my gosh, if your book had been around, well, I'm sure this is why you wrote the book because it didn't exist. But if your book had been around when I was in my 20s navigating the corporate world, gosh, I wonder where I'd be. I mean, I think I'm where I'm supposed to be. But everything in your book was so, it just hit me so personally. I'm like, oh my gosh, I've experienced so much of this. And I think a big reason why it took me so long to really recognize it and get over it, quite honestly, is because there weren't labels like there are today, like microaggressions and gaslighting, things like that.

Having a label for certain things that exist means the world of difference. So, and we're going to get into all of that because I'm very excited. I love your book. Oh, thank you. Yeah. But tell me a little bit about yourself. You have an amazing also kind of career that you've had. But tell me a little bit about how you got to this point where you're like, this is the book that needs to be written.

Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, my background is not in I mean, I am a journalist, but my background isn't in journalism. I went to school for theoretical astrophysics. Oh, my gosh. That sounds very smart. I mean, it sounds that way. And, like, I mean, not to minimize my accomplishment or anything, but honestly, like, I was fun and I'm glad I did it.

But I distinctly did not want to work in science or in academia. And honestly, for a lot of the reasons that, you know, are also reasons why I wrote the book, because back then, I also didn't have the language to understand why I felt like I was being left out of everything. Right. And so I just started working with computers. And I was in tech for a while. And eventually, I just started, you know, back in the mid Oh, geez, I guess it was a mid 2000s or something. I started blogging back when blogs were a thing. Remember blogs? I still technically have a blog. Yeah, I'm sure you see. That's good.

That's where I started. That's where I started blogging. So you and me. Yeah. And like, so I was doing that for a while. And eventually, you know, a couple of a couple of publications that I deeply respected and I was commenting on and big fans of. They were like, hey, you seem to know how to put some words together. Do you want to, you know, write a couple things for us, contribute on a random basis, so to speak? So I did. And of course, the pay wasn't great, but it was okay because I had a full-time job back then. So I was just doing it as a passion thing. And I did the thing that I would tell no one else to do. I decided to quit my full-time job and be a full-time freelance writer a week after moving into a very expensive apartment in Washington, D.C.

Oh, gosh. Yeah, it was not a great scene. But at the same time, I got really, really lucky. And Lifehacker, the site that I ran for a little while, the editor-in-chief then picked me up and said, hey, we're doing a new thing around here, which is hiring people. Do you want to be one of our writers? And he did.

And that's how I started in journalism. The book came around because I was at the New York Times for about three years at this point. And that's like cool. Like I remember you wrote in your book, you have this idea of working for the New York Times for about three years at this point. And that's like, cool. Like, I remember you wrote in your book, like, you know, you have this idea of working for the New York Times. It's kind of like the pinnacle of most, you know, if you're a journalist, you're like, oh, I'd love to work there. And you had an interesting experience. Yeah, it wasn't great. It wasn't a great experience at all. I mean, I shouldn't say that. I loved my time there. I did a lot of work that I'm very

proud of. And I have a lot of friends who still work there. But I distinctly noticed that I continued to have to feel like I had earned my place, right? I had been hired. I had been through the gamut of interviews from the person that I'd be sitting next to in the newsroom all the way up to Dean Baquet, the executive editor at the time. I had talked to all these people, and they all agreed that I'd be an asset and everything. So I felt like, and I was coming in after having been editor-in-chief of a relatively popular publication. So I'm like, oh, yeah, this is going to be great. You know, these people are going to respect my time and expertise. And that's not totally what happened. A lot of people there did,

and a lot of people there didn't. And I noticed slowly over time that I was starting to be kind of pushed out of meetings, pushed out of opportunities, left out of things that I could have had a big impact on, even things in my own team. And that was when I just kind of in a fit of frustration, I just started writing down little notes to myself, like, how would I complain about this job? What do I think about this? And ultimately, a lot of those notes and a lot of my own catharsis turned into this article that I wrote at the Times, so no one else could tell me not to, because it was in my own section, called What to Do If You Feel Like You're Being Discriminated Against at Work.

Did your bosses know that you were writing about where you were working? Nope, not at all. Oh my god, that's amazing. They did not. And the perks of being a senior editor was, you know, my boss actually oversaw like three different teams, and she had been promoted to go to a different team. So our team was left without a manager for a very long time. So I just kind of, you know, got a friend on the copy desk to edit it, got a friend in the fact checking desk to do some fact checks for me and we

published it and it turned into a thing, a big thing and got a lot of feedback from people who were saying, wow, you know, usually when people write about what to do if they feel like they've been discriminated against, it's like, oh, contact the EEOC, talk to HR, do these things. And those things can be helpful. And not HR. That's never helped. That is also true. That's very true. But I kind of contextualized it in terms of like, hey, the feelings that you're going through are legitimate. These experiences that you're having are real, even if the rest of your environment is trying to kind of make it out like they're not. And that's what led to my book editor emailing me after that article went up saying, hey, do you want to talk about turning this article into a book?

Well, that email went to spam, hey, do you want to talk about turning this article into a book? Well, that email went to spam. Oh, no. Yep. Oh, my gosh. But the email that didn't go to spam was the one from who is now the person who's now my agent, who works very closely with that editor. Like the two of them had gotten coffee and talked about my article and said, no, we need this guy to write a book. So he invited me over to talk about, you know, the book and ideas and whether or not we wanted to make this a real thing.

And the rest from the book perspective is history. Now, I did wind up leaving the New York Times while all of this was kind of bubbling to the surface. Like I was going back and forth. Do I want to write this? Do I want to write this at the Times and through the Times' own publishing house? You know? It's a bit complicated.

It was very complicated. And I had some very good friends at the Times who gave me great advice. They were like, no, take this book, do your own thing. Because if you publish it at the Times, then the Times gets to read it. The Times gets to request changes. And not that necessarily any of that would have been inherently bad. But if I wanted the real freedom to tell the story I wanted to, I had to do it on my own.

Yeah. So yeah. That's amazing. That's so amazing. Yeah, I probably would have left. I mean, honestly, I didn't feel comfortable talking about some of my workplace experiences until I quit my last corporate job almost six years ago. Because I mean, I can't even though I had like a blog and this podcast, I could not share any of that. It's like, what if I need to get hired again? I don't want to tarnish my reputation and look like I'm complaining or whatever, even if I'm just telling the truth, quite honestly. And then, yeah, it wasn't until I left my corporate job and

felt, I felt comfortable sharing my experience, which is unfortunate because I probably could have, I wish I was able to voice some of that because I feel like I probably could have helped a lot of other people who had similar experiences. So thank you for also being able to, you know, share this and the raw, honest truth. Because like I said, when I was going through the book and all the things that you were sharing, it just hit me so like, oh my gosh, to the core. I'm like, gosh.

And so I wanted to kind of dive in because I feel like a lot of other people, I'm like, obviously encourage people to read the book, but just some of the things that you shared were just like, and also I too, and you do address this too, because it's really about marginalized groups. And that could look like, you know, people of color. It could be women.

Honestly, it could be men. Sometimes I talk to my husband and he's like, I experienced that too. So it's like, it can be anybody can have had these experiences. But I think what the, like you kind of mentioned earlier, it's like, we need to be, feel like, validated that we're not crazy that this has happened. So I know you do talk about gaslighting a lot. And this is kind of my favorite word of the moment because there was not a word to experience all the gaslighting I've had in my life until like recently. I'm like, oh my gosh, I know I wasn't crazy, but there was no word to describe that experience. So I want to kind of talk a lot about that because I feel like that is so prevalent in so many organizations.

And I think it's getting a little bit better. But can you kind of share, you know, what are some experiences that people may have had? And what exactly is the solution? Like, I still don't quite honestly know. Now I can recognize it and label it, but I have no idea how to move forward. And you've, I mean, you were really, you know, honest in your book about some of your experiences and how you were able to handle it. And sometimes it's like you're stuck between two options that aren't great. Yeah, that's true. And it's one of those things,

just like you said, I mean, and I tell this to everybody, right? Marginalization is for everyone. I mean, it is, I mean, and everybody like women in majority male workspaces, disabled people or people with chronic disabilities or chronic illnesses or invisible disabilities in everywhere, right? And it can be people of color. It can be people with certain religious backgrounds and everything. And, yeah, it can be men in majority female spaces. You know, you never know. But yeah, the thing that really bothers and bothered me, especially in my own experience, was this notion of something bad happens to you or something problematic happens to you. And instead of the focus being on the thing that happened, the focus suddenly turns to, well, did it really happen like that? Or was it that bad?

Or what was the intention behind it? And that's another thing. There's an activist and, activist radio host, Jay Smooth. I think he's based here in New York City. And he did a wonderful YouTube video a while ago about how to tell someone that something they did is racist

versus calling them racist, right? And that was, I mean, that was a kind of turning point for me when I discovered it whenever he posted it ages ago. But it was one of those things where he pointed out the way to drive change and kind of self-accountability is to remind people, hey, I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm not saying you're problematic. I'm just saying, hey, this thing you did hurts. And I mean, I'm sure you don't want to hurt me, right? And in some cases, a person might actually want to. But when you frame it like that, of course, the issue now is the focus is on their behavior,

not their personality. But when it comes to gaslighting, like when something bad, especially in the workplace, happens to you, the focus quickly turns from addressing the behavior to making sure you're not rocking the boat and making sure that you kind of get back to being a happy, productive little worker. And that's not great. I mean, you have to be able to get over the action, get over the thing that happened, because if not, it's going to happen again, and it's going to happen again, and somebody else is going to do it, and you're going to focus again on trying to get around it, not acknowledge

it. To me, the key to fixing all of that is to cultivate this environment of psychological safety. And that's kind of the buzzword for me. And I mentioned a lot in the book, but it's something that I feel like managers desperately need to cultivate on their teams. And employees, like normal people like you or me, need to have that with their co-workers and with their managers. Otherwise, they're not going to be able to bring up the things that bother them in the first place. So if you have that psychological safety, you can go to your boss and say, hey, this thing happened. I'm not trying to tell you to turn the world upside down to get an apology or make it right. I just want to call it out and say, I don't appreciate that. I would love it if it didn't happen again. But if you don't

have that psychological safety, of course, you're not going to say anything. You're going to internalize it, right? And there are solutions to that as well. But I mean, to me, the key is to make sure that you have that. And if you don't have it, then you really need to reassess whether or not it's an environment you want to stay in at all. Yeah, well, that's the thing. That's probably why I've left all of my jobs. And most people are like, yeah, that's usually why you have to leave. But I also, you talk about in the book how it isn't your job to fix these systemic issues, because they're prevalent, they're big, you're just one person. And I think that's, you know, over the past few years, as we, I think,

as a society, been having a lot more of these conversations, it is, we're still navigating, like, how do we make change? Because the people that I think that really want to make change, they feel kind of alone. It's difficult to get a big force to actually make change. And then also to combating

actually making real change compared to just making it look like change is happening with a new department or diversity and inclusion committee right which usually i mean i don't know the ones that i've seen are just just for show a little bit exactly 100 i've seen good ones but i've seen a lot of bad ones yeah yeah so i i guess that's the that's the tricky part is navigating. Well, I guess maybe it's just about choosing those workplaces that do have that kind of psychological safety net and leaving the places that are just like, you know what? It is not my job to fix this.

I don't need to. But, you know, I think a lot of us like me, I'm a fixer. I know lots of people are fixers out there. And that's usually probably why I stayed at some of these jobs a little bit too long, because I thought I could make change. And then what happens is typically you'd get like burnt out or, you know, just spending more money in therapy and all that kind of stuff. You know, it's, yeah, it's, it's a tricky thing to, to navigate. And the other thing that you discuss in your book is how to respond. So you also talk about microaggressions, which I think is, again, a great label for a thing that says it existed,

but there wasn't a term for it. And it's, it's, it's, it's frustrating that we like reading your book, like, man, do we as individuals who are marginalized half, we have to do a lot of work in order to navigate just the normal world. But I guess one of our big jobs, and it's just like a survival tactic, is like, how do we respond when things happen? So do you want to kind of speak a little bit to that? Like, what are some responses that maybe we normally would do that aren't effective? And what are some more effective responses to when we are dealt with something like this? Oh, yeah. It's one of those things. So the person that invented the phrase microaggressions is a psychologist named Daryl Wing Su.

He's still teaching. He's wonderful. I wasn't able to reach him for the book, but I sent him a copy anyway because I'm so grateful. Someday I want him to sign my book, right? But he and one of his students, Kevin Nadal, came up with the Microaggressions Response Handbook. And it is a wonderful thing. I mean, it's easily Google-able too. Just Google Microaggressions Response Handbook and you will find a PDF. And it's fantastic because he

drills down a lot of the things that we would do, right? We generally, when we feel slighted, our first reaction is to get defensive or to get angry or to kind of push back, which are all legitimate feelings, right? There needs to be space for that anger. But that space for that anger and that rage has to be in spaces where it can be productive, right? And for a lot of marginalized people, that is either on a DEI committee, right, for example, or in an employee resource group where you're surrounded by people who are like you or have like to ask clarifying questions, which kind of turns the onus of explaining what just happened around to the person who just said the thing or did the thing. And it's one of those things where, you know, if you're a kid in school and you do something wrong in class and the teacher calls on you and says something like, you know, oh, did you bring enough to share for everybody? You know, like they they put the question back to you.

So you realize you're in trouble. Right. So if somebody says something problematic, then, you know, I can turn to them and say, no, I don't understand. What do you mean by that? Right. And that then I mean, they now have to explain the joke. Right. And, you know, you're in trouble if you have to explain the joke. And it's stuff like that. I mean, no, what do you mean by that? Or, you know, no, I don't understand. Can you clarify why you think that, right? Or why you think that blank equals blank or whatever you just said. And oftentimes that's enough to get somebody to kind of stand down

or it opens the door for you to slide in and say, I don't necessarily agree with that, but we can move on, right? And then you kind of point out to the person that, hey, I'm not necessarily a safe person for you to make those kinds of statements around or to make that kind of joke around. I'm not on your side here, but I'm also not looking for a big explosive confrontation. And that can often move you past it, right? I remember, I mentioned this in the book, but I had this situation where my laptop kept getting unplugged. And it's such a minor thing, right? It's such a minor thing.

But this is the thing, this is the point of a microaggression. It's designed to be a small thing that is imminently deniable to the person who does it to you. But it's also designed to make you spend your time second-guessing that person's intentions while also correcting whatever action that they did to you when you could be doing your job. And that's like what you were saying. It takes oftentimes marginalized folks have to spend more time doing more work on top of their actual work just to get by. And that's not great. And I hate telling people like, yeah, you have to do an additional job in order to be good at your job. But and sometimes as long as that additional job is also the job of protecting yourself i feel like it's a fair ask yeah no it just it just honestly reading your book gave me so many

memories of you know things that happened like you know one workplace where someone who was sort of a superior to me um but always took um you know credit for all of my work he would purposely um if we were to be in a meeting together on some project they're working on together um book it for a time that he knew that i'd be too busy because there were certain like deadlines and whatnot and i'm like okay and it was hard for me to deny well i didn't know you were busy why are you always busy on that time well this was when the other person was available and it was impossible for me to get ahead but again i was in my early 20s. And I

was just trying like, wow, he's a real jerk. Exactly. Well, I mean, yes, correct. But also, yeah, when you're I mean, no one gives you those tools, like, you know, oh, when you're prepared for the workforce, no one tells you how to deal with somebody who does that. Well, yeah. And one thing that also made me think a lot about is like the advice that we were given, I think lots of us, it was just like this blanket general advice for how to be successful in the workplace. And a lot of that advice I got, I was thinking, I'm like, I think it was actually just meant for like privileged white men, because when I did it, it didn't work.

You know, they put your head down and do good work, work hard and you'll be promoted and all that. I'm like, I never got a promotion. I never got a raise unless I like asked for it. And I only got a raise once. So I, but I was like an exceptional worker now. I mean, here's proof in the pudding. I run my own corporation. So, you know, I'm not an idiot. I know what I'm doing, but it's one of those things where it's like, we have to kind of let go. I think of a lot of this general advice that we got, if you're, you fit into one of these

categories. And then, yeah, like, was it in your book that you're like, take what works and then leave the rest kind of thing? Leave the rest. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, you do. I mean, and that's the thing. For example, one of the researchers, one of the social scientists I spoke to for the book, explained to me that part of the reason why people who are different of any stripe, right, get marginalized is because as a society, we have this kind of mindset, this ideal of what a leader looks like, what a good worker looks like. When you think of a CEO and you ask 10 different people what a CEO looks like, they're going to think about people like Elon Musk. They're going to think about people like Jeff Bezos, right? But these are all, you know, middle-aged white men,

and they don't think of a CEO as someone in a wheelchair or a CEO as a woman or a woman of color. Like, they're not, they don't, this is not the image that comes to mind. And when that's the case, you then have to come ready to fight that misconception for everything. And not, that's not just like access to the C-suite, but for a raise, right? Like you can keep your head down and do good work. And then I think the person I spoke to referred to that as like the busy bee syndrome, where like, we're so told, we're also often told that like, oh, yeah, good, the best, the cream rises to the top, right? The best get rewarded. And in practice, that's never what happens.

And you have to advocate for yourself. But you can't advocate for yourself too much or else you're going to be seen as aggressive or, you know, not a team player or, you know, out for yourself. And you just, it's such a tricky thing to navigate that some people, especially with privilege, don't have to navigate at all. And it's very, very difficult, but there are luckily ways to advocate for yourself that focus on your accomplishments and your skills.

And in a way, I find that by writing about them, like one of my favorite tips forever is keeping a work diary. But I find that like in that process, it is both great for me as a worker, right, to document my skills and document my accomplishments and achievements. It's also great therapy in a way because I'm kind of talking myself up and I'm openly criticizing my own weaknesses and my own areas where I fall short, but also my wins, small and large, and the things that I can celebrate. And then I'm ready to go to my boss and say, okay, I deserve that raise. I need that raise, but I deserve it. And here is why. And it has nothing to do with your perception of what my work is or your perception of what a good worker looks like. We're talking about these

actual tangible things that I have done, that I've written down. And you can't really argue, I mean, you can argue with data, but in general, most people would like to say that when presented with actual hard facts, they would understand, oh, yeah, you're actually doing great work right there. Maybe you do deserve a raise. I can make the case to my boss that you deserve a raise because you've laid out the case for me. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, that was one tip. That and keeping track of your accomplishments, which I think is so, so important.

And also just keeping your resume zhuzhed all the time i used to always all the time i always had a resume i actually haven't looked at it in a while but i obviously because i you know run my own thing now but yeah but but you know for for every job i ever had i was always looking at ways to to make it look better you know, put all, yeah, put like those accomplishments that you're already tracking on there. Because very well, you will come to a point, this was, you know, my experience, did the tracking, did all that, because I got really into looking how to, you know, what are some hacks that I can, you know, actually really use. And, you know, when I didn't just, you know, go in, I'm like, I deserve a raise. It's like, I deserve a raise. Here's also

a little PowerPoint. And here's some facts. And here's all the things. So it's like i deserve a raise here's also a little powerpoint and here's some facts and here's all the things so it looks like i know what i'm talking about and but then you know so either that'll work and sometimes it totally works and sometimes in my case it did not where my boss said that's a great yes i i totally agree you deserve a raise and her boss was like we don't have the budget but of course other people got that money So that's at that point where I'm like, well, I did what I had to do. So now I need to exit left and go to another route. But I mean, it's even great to have those list of accomplishments because then when you are in an interview, then you could be like, what did you accomplish in your last job?

Here's this huge list. And this is why I would be a huge asset to your company. That is my favorite thing about keeping a work diary and favorite thing about keeping track of those accomplishments because like, you know, everybody hates that question. Like, all right, tell me about a time where you were challenged and you overcame it. You know, what, what is, what's your greatest weakness? And like, instead of resorting to like a really bad answer, like, I'm a workaholic. You can't get me to stop. You know, instead of something like that, you have real answers, right? You have a real project. You

can say, oh, geez, back in X time, I worked on Y project and it didn't go well, but here's how I got it back on track. You know, you can, you have that stuff written down. You don't have to come up with something. And that's so powerful because you know how much you're worth, right? And if your boss doesn't agree or if your boss's boss or your CFO says, oh, we don't have the budget for a raise, okay, you know what you're worth. You can go talk to other people who will agree with you. And that's so empowering, even if you do want to stay there in the current job anyway, right? Because then you can walk in knowing, I deserve the space that I take.

I deserve the air that I'm taking up, and I deserve this seat at the table. And when the point comes where I feel like I deserve more than this, I can go get it. And that's a wonderful thing. That's a wonderful place to be mentally. And I think it's never been more important than now where so many more people are working remotely. I mean, some people have completely shifted to 100% remote work. And the one kind of thing I hear from people is they are worried that this will actually stagnate their career. Because sometimes, I mean, my last workplace was very, very corporate, where you had, it was about being seen like at your desk even

though you're gonna be doing nothing i mean i was yeah i was making my exact you know exit strategy i was working on like yeah sure um but now they don't see you so you need to have other evidence of not just being online at the times that you're supposed to but having those kind of data points to show them and i think this has got to be the new normal because more and more people are going to request remote work but even still it is about um well i really appreciate how you talk about in your book it's not about working harder it's about working smarter and i think that really hit home because i'm like i was always working harder and probably not smarter and that's something that i kind of wish i could go back in time because it's about figuring out

how can it look like I am busy, even though I am busy, but not too busy. Because, you know, a lot of the time, I mean, I was doing stuff that I'm like, no one even knows I'm doing this, you know? So what's the point of me doing it if no one knows? What's the point of doing it? I mean, that's the thing, right?

Back when I was at Lifehacker, we used to do a thing every, I think it was a week of Halloween every year called Evil Week, where we would write about all of our like bad life hacks, you know, the things that are like kind of on the dark side, right? And I wrote an article years ago about how to master the art of looking busy. And it was a lot of these tips, which were like how to, it sounded bad, but it's really good advice, as in how to manage your time, how to manage your boundaries, how to say no without ruining your career. So you have bandwidth when a good opportunity comes up rather than just saying yes to everything because you want to look like you're a team player. And that's such a dangerous thing because you can get caught

up in that very easily. I mean, I did at the New York Times. I still catch myself doing it now, where I find myself answering emails well into the evening for things that don't need a response right away. I know. I'm still bad at that, too. You know? Yeah. And I mean, sometimes it feels good to get it out of the way. But other times it's like I could be cooking dinner instead of ordering takeout. You know what I mean? I could be going for a walk instead of sitting at my desk. And I find it as often as possible. I try to tell people like, no, reclaim that time. for like your health and well-being, but future you who may wake up tomorrow morning and get reassigned to something or get a great opportunity that instead of saying, yeah, oh yeah, I'll get back to you tomorrow, you're going to need to reply to that person and say, hey, I'm being reassigned or I'm working on something else. I don't know what I'm going to be able to get to this, but I'll keep it on the back burner or something like that, right? You never know.

But there is a certain point where you do need to keep part of your plate clear. So you're not constantly overwhelmed or quickly burn yourself out. Yeah. And I think an important element to that for me, what I've kind of realized over the years is recognizing why do you feel like you always need to be available 24 seven. And part of it, I think, was because I was working so hard and could never get ahead in the way that I imagined. I thought I wasn't working hard enough. So I thought I had to work harder. And that meant being online and answering emails. And for me, one of the kind of tipping points for me were like, this isn't normal and this isn't healthy. And this isn't like the life that you should be living was when I, I was like years.

I didn't have a vacation. My husband and I went to Paris. Finally, I was gone for one week and I hadn't taken a whole vacation in two years of this one job. And I'm like, I'm going to be in Paris for God's sakes. Don't email me.

And I got an urgent email. They tried to get me, they found me on social media. We're like, Hey, Jess, can you answer your email? And it's because they couldn't access this one account or something as i did social media for the company even though there was someone else

that was supposed to be taking care of it but here's the kicker it was a white man he was also on vacation they did not bug him but they bugged me and i'm like okay yeah i'm like did you didn't you try to get out oh yeah we couldn't get a hold of him like but you got a hold of me right that's not fair i'm out come on Paris, for God's sakes. Yeah. Like, come on. And it's a time difference in every, I mean, yeah. And that's one of those things.

They found you on social media. They, I mean, they walked right past your boundaries into your personal space to see if they could find you. And, I mean, I'm willing to bet they did not go to that same length with this other person. Probably not. Yeah. willing to bet they did not go to that same length with this other person probably not yeah that was that was one the one moment we're like oh yeah things are different for me compared to this guy who does the exact literal same job as me same job but he was kind of in a at the time we were like i was canada and he was the uk version of uh the company or whatever but i'm like huh yeah huh that's not cool that's not cool at all it's my first vacation two years this is what happens

boundaries and that's when i'm like you know what i need to and that's that was at all it's my first vacation two years this is what happens boundaries and that's when i'm like you know what i need to and that's that was the beginning of the end of that job but right boundaries is so important but yeah i think a lot of us who've been dealing with this these experiences for so long and nor it gets normalized and so we think we almost deserve that life you know but it's like you know like you said you deserve a better life just because you know the world isn't you know just and fair like it should be that doesn know, like you said, you deserve a better life just because, you know, the world isn't, you know, just and fair like it should be. That doesn't mean that you can't still have a good life. You just, unfortunately, like you do say, we, yeah.

And this is, I mean, I was told the same thing. I know you wrote this in your book. You know, you have to work twice as hard. I was told that by my mom being like, you're a woman. You have to work twice as hard as a man to get even 70% of what they get. And so, but like you've also kind of shared in the book, it's not about working harder, smarter. Yeah.

Absolutely. And that's the thing, like, I mean, I was told the same thing, right? You know, we have to work twice as hard. And that's the key, right? If you're going to have to work harder, if you have to do it, and I mean, the stats show that marginalized people do.

We have to work harder. If you have to do that, then at least do it in a way that preserves your wellbeing, right? Do it as smart as you can, because other people don't have to worry about that at all. But if you're Like, is it part recognizing when, like, when things keep on kind of filtering into your personal life or, you know, how do you, because I feel like, honestly, for me, it really didn't hit me until I was like 30 to set any kind of workplace boundaries. Oh no. See, I mean, and I understand that. And quick story, like, and when I was back in tech, um, I was a project manager and we had a bunch of clients all over the world, you know, and we had one engineer who was like the guy for the thing.

And we would always call him. I mean, I feel awful looking back at it because we would call him in the middle of the night and say, OK, pack a bag. You have to go to Denver because that's where the facility for this client is and they need you there there by morning. Wow. Oh my gosh. And he would do it and he would do it. And he did it so many times that his health started to falter. His marriage almost like he almost got a divorce. Right. And I mean, there was a point where we all, he was ready to do it because he thought he had to. And it took the rest of us to kind of look at each other and stop and say, we can't do this to him. We can't, you know? And luckily we did, and he eventually kind of came around as well and asserted his own boundaries. But to me,

I look back at that because that was something that happened in my 20s. And I was just like, I don't ever want to be that guy. Like, I would love to be the guy who is the linchpin holding everything together, but you can't do that at the cost of yourself, right? So I tell people often, one, to learn how to say no and not just say no, like, oh, I can't work on that, But to say no and or no but, right? No and I'll take a look and see if I can work on it later. Or no but if you can get X, Y, Z off my plate, I should have the bandwidth to work on it, right? And to be fearless about having those conversations with your manager as well because your manager is supposed to be the person to help you balance and prioritize your workload. And they're usually not because we don't, we don't promote people because they

know how to manage others. We promote people because they're good at a thing. So we assume they must be good at managing people who do the thing. And that's never true. So it's up to us to manage our plate in that regard and be able to say to other people, hey, I'm full up right now. I would love to work on this for you, but I'm just capped out, right? And then that puts it back on the person who's asking you for help. Because if they really do need your skill set, if they really do need you particularly, then let them go to their boss or their boss's boss or your boss and say, hey, I really need so-and-so's help with this. It would be really helpful if you could free up some of their bandwidth for me. And as a project manager, that was my job, right? I had to get results from people who didn't report to me. So I had to go to

them and go to their bosses and say, hey, I'm not trying to get them in trouble. I just need their help. And so, and I think that's really helpful for individuals to do as well. And keeping track again, this is goes back to the work diary. Right. But keeping track of everything you're working on. So at any point, you can run off a list of all the things you have, all the plates you have spinning, all the balls you have in the air, all the all the euphemisms you want to use to describe work. And you can say, this is what I do, right? You always have an answer if somebody says, what are you working on? Like, oh, I can tell you what I'm working on. I'm working on this and that and that and that. And that puts you in the position of saying, I'm busy. I'm valuable. I'm doing valuable, useful work. And if you need me for more, I can be available to you, but it's got to come at the expense of something else. Not my personal time, not my weekends, not my nights, you know, not the morning before I wake up when you're trying to schedule me for a 6 a.m. meeting or something, you know, it's none of those things. And it gives you

the power to protect yourself a little bit more. And the one thing that just like listening to our conversation, why I think this is so important for everyone to, to understand and then embrace and then actually activate is because if we all do this, all of us in marginalized groups, if we all do this, that is, I think how we get that big change it'll obviously take time but i think that's the the thing is like if we don't do anything if we just keep the status quo and keep our mouths shut because we don't want to rock the bone i don't want to look aggressive or i don't want to be you know the bitch in the office or whatever then nothing's going to change we're going to be you know it's you know i hate every year i'm like it's 2022 how is this happening i say this

every year since like yep you know since i was in my 20s everyone says it doesn't matter it's like yeah the only way to see progress is if we can collectively start these small little things that will then have a compounded effect and i really hope and i do see this in younger generations they are better like gen z they are much better at vocalizing and advocating for themselves which makes me so happy and then part of the millennial bitter person inside me who had to deal with like the recession and stuff is like oh gosh it's so annoying that i had to deal with all this crap and they don't but i'm also very happy that they don't but also yeah exactly that 100 and i that's why i wrote the book yeah yeah exactly so they can like activate this and

then tell the younger generations and then hopefully this will you know yeah helps people it's also catharsis for me right yeah I bet oh my gosh no I can't wait to eventually have my own book and share some yeah doesn't it feel so good to let that out but yeah sometimes I just think of like I have a you know three-year-old niece and I'm like, she's a girl. And I'm like, oh gosh, I really hope she does not have to deal with lots of the crap that I dealt with when she eventually enters the workplace. That's always my kind of goal with sharing all the amazing information that you have on this show and other guests. It's like, I hope that this crap doesn't exist or as much or there's just at least tools because there weren't any tools. Right. Exactly. And that's the thing. Like, I mean, even if you do have to deal with it at some point, because someplace never refuses to change, at least you'll be empowered to deal with it in a

smart way or know when it's time to go because you can't deal with it anymore. Exactly. And I think, yeah, the other kind of important message you got from your book is like, it's not your fault and not necessarily your problem but a lot of the time we blame ourselves we absolutely do yeah we absolutely do well i know i could probably get you you know chat about your book um all day long because i loved it so much and i really recommend people check it out because so many people i'm like yeah they'll read it and they'll see themselves in in your words so i really appreciate you you writing it and being on the show to share about it. Where can people grab a copy and where can they find you if they want to follow you? Yeah, Seen, Heard, and Paid. It's wherever books are sold. I think it's on sale

on Amazon and on Bookshop. So whichever place you want to go buy it, go buy it. And you can follow me. Well, actually, all of my everything is at alan-henry.net so you can find my twitter there uh you can find my email address if you want to join if you want to shoot me a line you can find my newsletter productivity without privilege uh i love that yeah every other tuesday um i think oh geez that's right i have to write one for tomorrow so i'll do that right now but uh but yeah so just head on over there you'll find out how to get in touch with me and do say hi, because I do, I do write back. I bet you do. I bet you get a lot of, after your books come out, so many emails from people. I have.

Right? I mean, maybe it's, you know, maybe some resources for the next one. It's true. And it's a lot, a lot of like what you just described. People who are like, hey, this has been wonderful. I see myself in it and i'm like i'm so sorry you went through it but i'm glad i'm glad you have tools to deal with it yeah absolutely well thanks again for being on the show it was a pleasure having you great thanks for having me and that was episode 337 with alan henry author of seen heard and paid the new work rules for the marginalized. Also, he is the current senior editor at Wired. So make sure to grab a copy of his book. I will be sharing some details on how you can enter to win a copy because I will be giving away a copy and I'm giving away copies of other books as well. But first, you know, make sure to go to his website, alan-henry.net. You can also follow him on Twitter and Instagram at HaloPhoenix. That's

H-A-L-O-P-H-O-E-N-I-X. HaloPhoenix is where you can find him on Twitter and Instagram. All right. So I've got some things to share with you as always, but also, so I don't forget, make sure to check out the show notes if you want to find some easy to find links about this episode, the author, grab his book, whatever. I always include all that information in the show notes for each episode. So you can find that at jessicamorehouse.com slash 337. Or you can go to jessicamorehouse.com slash podcast and find everything right there. But anyways, I just want to share a few words about this podcast season sponsor, and then I'm going to share some other important things with you. This episode of the More Money Podcast is supported by Desjardins. Do you feel valued

at your financial institution? Because Desjardins is on a mission to enrich the lives of Canadians, help build stronger communities, and educate its members so they can confidently reach their financial goals. Not only do they offer one-of-a-kind customer care and offer a variety of financial services to fit your needs, as a cooperative, they put their members first. So if you're looking for an institution that's making an impact, look no further than Desjardins. To learn more about Desjardins and how they're making a difference, visit Desjardins.com. Okay, so first and foremost, a reminder, I am giving away a copy of the book that was featured on this episode, as well as books that have been featured in the past few weeks.

So I'm giving away Becoming Superwoman by Nicole Lappin. Also, I'm giving away a copy of The Bogle Effect by Eric Balchunas. And of course, I'm going to give away a copy of Ellen Henry's book that was just featured on this episode, Seen, Heard, and Paid. So you can find out details on how to enter to win any of those books at jessicamorehouse.com slash contest. That is where you can find all of them. And I will be updating them throughout the season because I've got a lot more guests coming on the show. And to give you a tease, who do I have next week? Oh, oh, this is gonna be a good episode. I've got Kelly LaValle. She is an expert when it comes to divorce finances. So maybe you're going through something,

maybe you know someone who is, even if you're not, it's actually, you know, important information to know what happens financially, if you separate if you divorce, because I feel like we don't really talk enough about that. We talk a lot about the legal stuff, maybe, you know, hear a lot about, you know, online, you know, custody cases and celebrity divorces and stuff like that will be get really into the nitty gritty about what happens to the money and all thatces and stuff like that, where we get really into the nitty gritty about what happens to the money and all that kind of stuff and how to navigate it. It's complicated, right? So you're going to really enjoy that episode. So that is something you can

look forward to. Something else you can look forward to is new episodes that I will be sharing on my YouTube channel. So FYI, besides having this wonderful podcast, I also have a YouTube channel that I have been putting out more videos on. Not as much as I should be quite honestly, this year has been a bit crazy. Because just honestly, a lot of my time has been dedicated to this podcast, updating my investing course, a bunch of other things, you know, life just happens. But now I feel like I finally actually have a proper YouTube filming recording studio in my new house. Also, yeah, I think moving to a new place actually is probably a big reason why I wasn't as productive

as I could have been this year. I mean, moving just takes a lot out of you. But I have a few videos that you may want to check out that I put out about asset allocation ETFs. Gosh, and the recent one I just put out was about should you incorporate your business or stay a sole proprietor because I've got a lot of subscribers on my channel because I have put out a lot of videos about small business in Canada. So check it out. I'll have more videos, you know, on that channel soon. It's just under my name, Jessica Morehouse. So you can just Google YouTube Jessica. Or you can just go to JessicaMorehouse.com slash YouTube, and it'll direct you right there. And since I mentioned

my investing course, if you did not know, I have an investing course. It's called Wealth Building Blueprint for Canadians. You can find it at Jessicaorehouse.com slash course. It's something I launched back in February 2021. And it has been an amazing, amazing experience to see all of the students who've entered the course, do the course, implement what they've learned, and actually start investing in a way that is passively managed, that is low fees. And they actually have clarity on what the heck they're actually investing in. So if you feel like this is the time I really need to pay attention to my investments, or I'm freaking out about my investments, because you don't quite understand

what's going on, you know, in the world right now in the financial markets, and also in your particular portfolio, you may want to check out this course, you may want to see what you can learn, because it is not just about learning about passive investing. We also go through all the fundamentals that you should understand about securities and capital markets and all this jargon that will make sense to you when you're in the course, because I'm very good at translating all that jargon. So if you want to learn more about that, just go to JessicaMoorhouse.com slash course. Okay, so I'm going to leave it there. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the show. I of course will be back for that episode that I teased next Wednesday. So a big shout out to my podcast editor Matt

Rideout and I will see you back here next Wednesday, right? Yeah, I will. All right, have a good rest of your week. See you next week. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.